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Author Topic: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia - Town Wins!  (Read 226157 times)

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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #675 on: September 15, 2014, 03:50:20 pm »

Quote
1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.
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azadin

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #676 on: September 15, 2014, 03:52:07 pm »

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).
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pacovf

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #677 on: September 15, 2014, 03:52:48 pm »

PAC : the Targaryen power could be antitown, who knows. And dissolving a house is exactly something we can't do if we don't have movement anymore.

Well, if empowered Stark goes the way of the redirector, instead of the way of the doctor, it will be more antitown than a bodyguard... and there will be no turning back.

As I said before, as long as we make sure that everyone in Baratheon can move once more, we can dissolve Baratheon at any time. Sending people that won't be able to move again to Baratheon is plain silly.


PPE: you are empowering 2 houses, yes, but you are losing one power forever (yes non-empowered Lannister is crap, but empowered might not be), and YOU ARE EMPOWERING THE ARSONIST. Don't think that is a particularly good argument.
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #678 on: September 15, 2014, 03:53:50 pm »

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?
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azadin

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #679 on: September 15, 2014, 03:54:09 pm »

Quote
1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

PPE: 2
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #680 on: September 15, 2014, 03:54:29 pm »

PPE: you are empowering 2 houses, yes, but you are losing one power forever (yes non-empowered Lannister is crap, but empowered might not be), and YOU ARE EMPOWERING THE ARSONIST. Don't think that is a particularly good argument.

And not using the Arsonist. And we get to see what empowered Arsonist is, which seems to be something you'd like.
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #681 on: September 15, 2014, 03:55:15 pm »

Sending people that won't be able to move again to Baratheon is plain silly.

Good thing I'm not proposing that.
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azadin

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #682 on: September 15, 2014, 03:55:46 pm »

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?

Seems to be that way. "Make sure WW is here so he can do this and that, and let's bodyguard him so he stays alive, etc." I'm not saying I don't think he's an IC, I was just expressing my thoughts that dang I really hope we read that right.
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pacovf

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #683 on: September 15, 2014, 03:56:00 pm »

Haha, yes, I would like to see Baratheon empowered, but we can also empower both Lannister and Baratheon, so it's still not a good argument.

PPE: no, Teproc was assuming that we might do that.
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Witherweaver

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #684 on: September 15, 2014, 03:56:13 pm »

I like Volt's plan.
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Teproc

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #685 on: September 15, 2014, 03:56:32 pm »

Quote
1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

PPE: 2

The other con is we lose time. A good power is more useful if we get it earlier. Doctor is really much, much better than Bodyguard (if that's what it empowers to).
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #686 on: September 15, 2014, 03:56:40 pm »

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

We can't use just 3 moves to check. That leaves 1 in Baratheon and 2 in Targ, which is a big problem. Such a scenario is not under consideration.

Also let's keep lynching PPS.
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pacovf

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #687 on: September 15, 2014, 03:58:05 pm »

The empower Lannister plan needs at least 6 movements. 3 to empower Lannister, and 3 to plug holes.

The emptying Lannister plan needs 5 movements. 4 to empty Lannister, one because Ichi needs to go somewhere.

Are we really haggling for one movement?
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Teproc

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #688 on: September 15, 2014, 03:58:12 pm »

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?

Seems to be that way. "Make sure WW is here so he can do this and that, and let's bodyguard him so he stays alive, etc." I'm not saying I don't think he's an IC, I was just expressing my thoughts that dang I really hope we read that right.

First of all no one is saying "let's bodyguard him so he stays alive". But his mere existence makes Bodyguard stronger. Not the same thing.

Actually that's it, I agree we're relying on an IC that's not an actual IC, but I think it's fine.
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silverspawn

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #689 on: September 15, 2014, 03:58:55 pm »

Quote
Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

it's a good fact. I do think your plan is better, there's not really an argument pro lannister.
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Teproc

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #690 on: September 15, 2014, 03:59:55 pm »

The empower Lannister plan needs at least 6 movements. 3 to empower Lannister, and 3 to plug holes.

The emptying Lannister plan needs 5 movements. 4 to empty Lannister, one because Ichi needs to go somewhere.

Are we really haggling for one movement?

It's not just one movement. If the Lannister power is bad, it's that + however many we need to empower Stark and rebalance things.

You're saying we on't send people with no movement to BAratheon, but things might get more complicated depending on who we lynched as the game goes on, so it's good to have more movement as a safety net.
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #691 on: September 15, 2014, 04:00:19 pm »

The other nice thing about the plan is that IG is the only one who needs to wait to send his move order in until after the lynch has been determined. All Lannisters could send their choice in now, and we're really minimizing the odds someone screws something up by not being around a computer at the right time.
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Teproc

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #692 on: September 15, 2014, 04:00:53 pm »

This game will be a pain to reread...
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #693 on: September 15, 2014, 04:01:53 pm »

Are we really haggling for one movement?

No. We're haggling that Lannister is a crap power and it's better to empower 2 Houses instead, 1 of which is amazing (and 1 of which is terrible, but if empBarath is full vig or something instead that's something worth using maybe) etc. etc. etc.

There's more than one movement at stake here. (And one movement is nothing to sneeze at)
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #694 on: September 15, 2014, 04:02:15 pm »

This game will be a pain to reread...

I know. Unfortunately there's no going back, I've said "**** it" already.
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silverspawn

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #695 on: September 15, 2014, 04:03:41 pm »

do you think we should determine the lynch target before doing the switching? if so, is there any reason except that it requires us to slightly adapt the switching?
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pacovf

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #696 on: September 15, 2014, 04:04:06 pm »

PPE 6

Quote
Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

it's a good fact. I do think your plan is better, there's not really an argument pro lannister.

I vehemently disagree. The only real advantage of his plan is that it takes less movements, and as shown, the difference is not really that big.

Just because Lannister base power is useless doesn't mean that the empowered version is too. And even if it is, we can just empty Lannister afterwards. Yes, we will have used more movements that if we emptied Lannister straight, but frankly people are overvaluing movement. So what if someone can't leave Stark/Targaryen? Definitely not the end of the world. The upshot is we get some sort of pseudo-investigative role. Seriously, I don't know how both sides are remotely equal.
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pacovf

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #697 on: September 15, 2014, 04:04:46 pm »

The *possible* upshot.
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Voltaire

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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #698 on: September 15, 2014, 04:06:17 pm »

do you think we should determine the lynch target before doing the switching? if so, is there any reason except that it requires us to slightly adapt the switching?

We have to. Otherwise we won't switch in time for tonight.

IG is the only one who has to adapt. If we lynch...

Targ, he goes to Targ
Lannister, he goes to Baratheon
Baratheon, he goes to Baratheon
Stark, he goes to Stark
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Re: M50: A Song Of Ice And Fire Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #699 on: September 15, 2014, 04:06:37 pm »

Does the Hand of the King strongman apply to scum kills ?

Yes.
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