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[faust]

Welcome to M50: A Song of Ice and Fire Mafia (aka Game of Thrones Mafia 2)!

Mod: faust, comod: TA

This game will use an invented, semi-open setup based upon Monsters U Mafia and Language BM. Detailed information is contained in Post 2.

Players:
1. silverspawn, Mafia 1-shot Ninja lynched D2
2. pacovf
3. ashersky
4. Hydrad, Vanilla Lord lynched D3
5. Witherweaver
6. Teproc
7. XerxesPraelor
8. EgorK
9. Robz888
10. Ichimaru Gin
11. pingpongsam, Mafia Jailkeeper lynched D1
12. azadin, Vanilla Lord killed N1
13. Voltaire, Tracker killed N3

Spectators tagged: Archetype, yuma, mail-mi

Day starts: D1 | D2 | D3 | D4

Rules for this game

Changes to the usual rule sets are marked in olive.

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game. Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play. Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline.  If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.  If your Night action was mandatory, it will be decided randomly.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. This game will have 7 day Day deadlines. Night will last 72 hours. Unless stated otherwise, individual Night actions must be submitted within the first 24 hours of the Night phase.
2. House voting deadlines are until the end of the Day phase (during the day) or 48 hours after Night start (during the night).
3. House actions must be submitted before the night ends.
4. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
5. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
6. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mods lock the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
7. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, one of two things will happen: If there was a lynch on the previous Day, there will be no lynch. Otherwise the player with the most votes at deadline will be lynched, with ties broken randomly.
8. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
9. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
10. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch. This is only applicable if there was a lynch on the previous Day.
11. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
12. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.
13. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, olive text is reserved for the mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the mod privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.10 without further notice.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator.  Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.

[faust]

Setup information

There are 13 players, some of which are mafia and rest town (Realm-aligned in this game). At the start of the game, each player is assigned to a House or House-free. Houses do not indicate alignment. Similarly, flavor names are independent of alignment.

All players may change their House twice during the entire game. They may choose to change their house at any point during the game. If they do, at the start of the game phase after the decision, they will leave their house and join the new one (i.e. if decided N2 to change, the change will happen at the start of D3). They may also choose to be House-free; this also counts as a change of Houses. All players sworn to one House have a weighted vote. If a player joins a House, their weighted vote will be 2. It will increase by 1 for each Night phase they serve that House. But if they leave the House, it will again drop to 2, even if they join again later. If at any point in the game 0 players are sworn to a House, that House will perish and it will not be possible to join anymore.

Each House comes with a Neighborhood QT open both Day and Night, a power and an empower condition. If the empower condition is met at night, the power that the House possesses will grow stronger. Each night, every house may choose one of their players to perform that house's night action. A member of the House must receive more than half of the weighted votes of that house to be able to perform the night action. He may choose his target freely and secretly. If nobody reaches that quorum, the night action will not be performed.

The House that has the most members will make the king. When any house reaches a majority, they are informed of that, and before this phase ends, they must vote for one of their own to become Hand of the King. A simple majority of the weighted votes is enough here. The Hand of the King performs the night action of the House until another House gets more members. All night actions of the Hand of the King can't be blocked or Redirected in any way. If the Hand of the King is not elected in time, the House will not be able to perform any night action.

Example:

Player A and Player B start in House Greyjoy. Their weighted vote in the House is 2 at game start. N1, they may choose one of them to perform the night action. Each vote has weight 2, so the total is 4. In order for the vote to be successful, 3 votes must be on the same person. In this case, Player A and Player B must vote for the same person for the vote to go through.

At the end of the night, the weighted vote of player A and B increases by 1.

D2, Player B is lynched, and Player C and D choose to join House Greyjoy. They enter with weighted vote 2. N2, Players A, C, D may decide to give the power to one player. The weighted vote total is 3+2+2=7, so 4 votes are necessary to get a majority. That means if two players vote the same person, that person gets the power.

At the end of the night, the weighted vote of players A, C, D increases by 1.

At the start of D3, player E joins the House, and it is announced that House Greyjoy has conquered the Iron Throne, because it is the House with the most living members. The players have until the end of the day to elect a Hand of the King, who will perform the night action for as long as their House holds the Iron Throne. Player A has weighted vote 4, players C and D 3, and player E 2. A simple majority is enough, i.e. if everyone votes for himself, player A will become Hand of the King.

All PRs are only able to target players of a House other than their own. The same goes for players performing their House's power. There is however no restriction for the mafia night-kill. There will be at least one role that relates directly to the setup. Flavor names are independent of alignment and role, but not independent of the starting House.

Note that all individual night actions (that is, night actions that are not House powers) are due in the first 24 hours of the night. The same goes for the factional kill. House actions are due at the end of the night. All actions of one night will be resolved simultaneously.

Spoiler warning: This game is set to start at the end of the second book of the A Song of Ice and Fire series (end of season two in Game of Thrones). Events that have already occurred in the TV show may be referenced in the flavor. However, no spoilers from the books beyond that point will be released.

[silverspawn]

cool

/in

[pacovf]

Tentative /in (depending on when this starts). Will all the powers be standard? Or a we going full RMM?

[ashersky]

/in

[Hydrad]

/in!

[Witherweaver]

/in !!!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Do you have an idea when this will start?

[Teproc]

I have to /in. DUne Mafia will be going at the same time, but still, this is too good to pass on.

[XerxesPraelor]

/in

[Eevee]

/in

[Twistedarcher]

This is a cool setup. You all will enjoy it!

[EgorK]

/in

[Archetype]

/tag. I don't have time to play this, but I wish I did!

[Robz888]

/in

[yuma]

/tag speccy request as well

[mail-mi]

/tag

[faust]

Tentative /in (depending on when this starts). Will all the powers be standard? Or a we going full RMM?

This is a normal game, which means powers will generally be standard. There might be some minor modifications though.

[faust]

Do you have an idea when this will start?

I can start whenever. Maybe it's good to wait until one of the ongoing games is finished, but it mainly depends on what fits best for the players who signed up.

[Voltaire]

/IN

[faust]

Made some additions to the setup post. See the quotes below.

There are 13 players, some of which are mafia and rest town (Realm-aligned in this game). At the start of the game, each player is assigned to a House or House-free. Houses do not indicate alignment.

All PRs are only able to target players of a House other than their own. The same goes for players performing their House's power. There is however no restriction for the mafia night-kill. There will be at least one role that relates directly to the setup. Flavor names are independent of alignment and role, but not independent of the starting House.

Note that all individual night actions (that is, night actions that are not House powers) are due in the first 24 hours of the night. The same goes for the factional kill. House actions are due at the end of the night. All actions of one night will be resolved simultaneously.

[pingpongsam]

Traditionally I am always starting a game this time of year so this is the one... /in

[azadin]

/in

I'll be out of town sept 6-12 with limited internet access, so if we start sometime after that, that would be awesome.

[pacovf]

Before this starts, I would like to mention that I will be considerably less available than in my only game until now. I will be starting an internship soon, so my available free time will plummet. That doesn't mean I will lurk, but those of you that played that game with me might be surprised with the lowered level of activity.

[Voltaire]

/out 

[Hydrad]

/out 

[Ichimaru Gin]

/in

I'm back!

[faust]

I'm planning on starting this around September 12, should it fill in time. Is that okay with everyone, or would you like to start earlier or later?

[Voltaire]

/in

I can't stay out!

Expect a much, much lurkier Volt than you've ever met.

[Teproc]

/in

I can't stay out!

Expect a much, much lurkier Volt than you've ever met.

Yay !

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm planning on starting this around September 12, should it fill in time. Is that okay with everyone, or would you like to start earlier or later?

I vote to start as soon as it is feasible for you. I'm really looking forward to this game, and hopefully whatever skill/knowledge I had hasn't deteriorated during my break.
Cue someone posting "Mafia's like riding a bike. . ."

[faust]

I'm planning on starting this around September 12, should it fill in time. Is that okay with everyone, or would you like to start earlier or later?

I vote to start as soon as it is feasible for you. I'm really looking forward to this game, and hopefully whatever skill/knowledge I had hasn't deteriorated during my break.
Cue someone posting "Mafia's like riding a bike. . ."

I can send out PMs tomorrow, I think. azadin, would that work for you?

[pingpongsam]

What fun, as per tradition, I will be vacationing all the first week. I used to think this meant I would barely be available but what it really means is I will play stranger than ever.

[faust]

I will start N0 now. D1 is scheduled to start on September 11 around noon. Should you wish a later start, please send me a PM. D1 won't start unless all players have confirmed.

[pingpongsam]

I will start N0 now. D1 is scheduled to start on September 11 around noon. Should you wish a later start, please send me a PM. D1 won't start unless all players have confirmed.

Is this implying PMs are sent? If so, I don't have one.

[ashersky]

I will start N0 now. D1 is scheduled to start on September 11 around noon. Should you wish a later start, please send me a PM. D1 won't start unless all players have confirmed.

Is this implying PMs are sent? If so, I don't have one.

[faust]

I will start N0 now. D1 is scheduled to start on September 11 around noon. Should you wish a later start, please send me a PM. D1 won't start unless all players have confirmed.

Is this implying PMs are sent? If so, I don't have one.

PMs are being sent out, the process is not yet completed.

[faust]

Night 0 gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until your
death. I shall take no action, hold no vote, father no hammers. I shall
wear no crowns and win no MVP. I shall live and die at my post. I am
the vote count in the darkness. I am the mod on the thread. I am the
flip that burns against the uncertainty, the light that brings the dawn,
the prod that wakes the lurkers, the shield that guards the realms of
civility. I pledge my life and honor to the Mod's Watch, for this night
and all the nights to come.

Night 0 has begun! Please confirm your roles via PM or in your respective QTs.

[faust]

Some clarifications:

- no action may be taken during Night 0, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
- empowerment won't activate until Night 1, even if the conditions are met earlier
- it is not possible to switch houses before Day 1 starts
- the four Houses in the game are Lannister, Stark, Targaryen, Baratheon
- House QTs will be newly set up each time someone joins or leaves the house. It is thus not possible for players that join a house to see any of the previous discussion.

[Eevee]

Did I not make the cut?

[yuma]

Did I not make the cut?

Poor Eevee... If I had a spot I would give it to you...

[Robz888]

Ah, it looks like faust missed your /in. Faust, can you confirm?

[faust]

Ah, it looks like faust missed your /in. Faust, can you confirm?

Oh no, I missed that! I'm really, really sorry Eevee!

I would like to give you another spot, but it's too late now... all I can do is promise you to be the first one I ask for subbing in.

Sorry again for bad modding

[Eevee]

Don't feel bad! Happens to all of us, no worries.

[2.71828.....]

/tag for House Martell

[faust]

Prologue

"My kin!", exlclaimed Balon Greyjoy,who was recently styling himself King of the Isles and the North. "The hopeless attempt of my foolish son Theon to capture Winterfell has left us wounded. We are lucky that that Stark boy and the incest-breed on the Iron Throne are keeping each other busy. We need to think about ways to strengthen our position before that conflict comes to an end."

Garon walked around the table, pouring wine into the the cups standing there for this intimate meeting. He couldn't believe how lucky he was. Only recently had he been promoted to be the king's cupbearer, and already he was allowed to attend a secret meeting.

"Deepwood Motte is ours", reported Asha, the daughter of the king on the Seastone Chair. "Give me more ships and I will be able to sail south, delivering a first strike against the Reach."

Victarion Greyjoy raised his voice. The younger brother of Balon was an impressive figure, with the kraken emblazoned on his broad chest. "Girls like you understand nothing of the ways of war", he remarked derogatorily. "Why start a quarrel with the Reach? We have nothing to fear from there. Since Renly Baratheon's death, they couldn't even make up their mind about which king they should support."

"That's right", Asha responded aggressively. "They are weak, and we will catch them unprepared. With a large enough fleet and a sudden strike, we could even capture Highgarden."

"Silence", bellowed Balon. "Asha, you're the only child left to me, and I appreciate your advice, but you're not thinking far enough. Our goal is not to conquer some shores in the Reach. Our goal – the only goal worth striving for for a true Greyjoy – is to grab hold of the Iron Throne. Garon, some more wine!"

"The Iron Throne", gasped Aeron, the priest of the Drowned God, as Garon hurried to fill the king's cup again. "Our troops are nowhere strong enough to stand against Casterly Rock."

"Which is why we rely on other means than conquest", responded Balon. "Westeros is very close to sinking in chaos, and the only thing keeping it from that are a few wise rulers. Take out the leaders, and the land will sink in the Chaos of civil war. And from this chaos, we shall emrge victorious. A few faithful friends in the important houses are all we need."

Garon listened incredulously as Balon Greyjoy named the conspirators. Who would have guessed? Garon was overjoyed. He could not begin to imagine the wealths he would be granted once he sent these news to his master, Lord Varys.

As soon as the meeting was over, Garon hurried towards the raven's tower, in his hands the letter that would make him rich or maybe even gain him knighthood. Outside, the wind blew with all force, rain was clashing in his face as he ran across the wooden bridge that lead towards the tower, but he barely felt it. Then, suddenly, there was a hand pushing him from behind. He became unbalanced, slipped and fell over the bridge.

His hand reached out to the wooden planks, he wouldn't fall, not now! He grabbed hold of the slippery wood, saved, he thought, when a sinister man appeared above him. It was Aeron Greyjoy, the pious brother of the king! "Help me!", Garon cried out, but Aeron just kept standing there, piercing him with a strange look. "You're not good enough to fool the Drowned God", he said. Then, he lifted his foot and stepped onto Garon's hand.

Garon screamed, softened his grip, and fell. The last thing he saw was Aeron, murmuring his prayer: "What is dead may never die..."

Day 1 has begun!

Joffrey of House Lannister sits on the Iron Throne.

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (13): silverspawn, pacovf, ashersky, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc, XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, pingpongsam, azadin, Voltaire

Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[Teproc]

Yaaaay !

vote : Joffrey

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Joffrey

[Ichimaru Gin]

Third! vote: Silverspawn
since I've never played with you before.

[pacovf]

Wuh, the anti-realm faction are... the Greyjoys?

Who is the poor soul that got Joffrey? vote: joffrey of course.

I'm Brinden Tully FWIW.

[Teproc]

What ? We shouldn't claim flavor yet.

[Teproc]

Even if flavor isn't related to role, it's definitely related to QTs, and we haven't decided wether or not we want to claim that. Everyone know knows which QT you're in, which we may or may not want.

I mean I do think we will claim QTs, but we should have a discussion about it first.

[pacovf]

Joffrey kinda has to, so who cares.

Flavour is unrelated to roles/powers anyway.

PPE 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok two things. First, I have to admit that I've barely read the books.
Second, how do we change our houses?

[pacovf]

I'm also working under the assumption that we've got scum in every quicktopic, since that's the worst case scenario. Maybe I shouldn't?

[pacovf]

Even if flavor isn't related to role, it's definitely related to QTs, and we haven't decided wether or not we want to claim that. Everyone know knows which QT you're in, which we may or may not want.

I mean I do think we will claim QTs, but we should have a discussion about it first.

Fair enough.

[pacovf]

We've got a notoriously low amount of information on the setup. No information about the possible PRs, nor the number of scum players.

What's the usual amount of mafia in a 13 player game?

[Teproc]

We've got a notoriously low amount of information on the setup. No information about the possible PRs, nor the number of scum players.

What's the usual amount of mafia in a 13 player game?

It depends how many factions there are. My bet would be two scum factions, maybe 2 each ? It pretty much has to be 3/4 scum total. C9++ is a 13-player setup that can result in only 2 scum, but that's with almost no PRs for town, which I doubt is the case here.

[Witherweaver]

Oh wait Ichi's in this game?  Vote: Ichimaru.

[Witherweaver]

We've got a notoriously low amount of information on the setup. No information about the possible PRs, nor the number of scum players.

What's the usual amount of mafia in a 13 player game?

It depends how many factions there are. My bet would be two scum factions, maybe 2 each ? It pretty much has to be 3/4 scum total. C9++ is a 13-player setup that can result in only 2 scum, but that's with almost no PRs for town, which I doubt is the case here.

Why are you betting on this?

[Teproc]

We've got a notoriously low amount of information on the setup. No information about the possible PRs, nor the number of scum players.

What's the usual amount of mafia in a 13 player game?

It depends how many factions there are. My bet would be two scum factions, maybe 2 each ? It pretty much has to be 3/4 scum total. C9++ is a 13-player setup that can result in only 2 scum, but that's with almost no PRs for town, which I doubt is the case here.

Why are you betting on this?

Which part, there being PRs ? TO be clear, the situation where C9++ only gives 2 scum is one where town has exactly one PR. This is an invented game, faust has obviously put work in the flavor, so I assume there's more.

I suppose the whole QT thing could justify there being very few, but I guess I don't expect that because if I were modding an ASoIaF game, I would want to give a fair amount of power to both (all ?) factions.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh wait Ichi's in this game?  Vote: Ichimaru.

whas up scumbud?

Man oh man, it feels good to be back!

[pacovf]

We've got a notoriously low amount of information on the setup. No information about the possible PRs, nor the number of scum players.

What's the usual amount of mafia in a 13 player game?

It depends how many factions there are. My bet would be two scum factions, maybe 2 each ? It pretty much has to be 3/4 scum total. C9++ is a 13-player setup that can result in only 2 scum, but that's with almost no PRs for town, which I doubt is the case here.

Why are you betting on this?

Which part, there being PRs ? TO be clear, the situation where C9++ only gives 2 scum is one where town has exactly one PR. This is an invented game, faust has obviously put work in the flavor, so I assume there's more.

I suppose the whole QT thing could justify there being very few, but I guess I don't expect that because if I were modding an ASoIaF game, I would want to give a fair amount of power to both (all ?) factions.

I think he was asking why you were assuming there are two scum factions.

It's been specifically said in the setup that there is no SK, right?

[Teproc]

Oh right. I'm not really assuming that, I just think it's somewhat likely given that ASoIaF has a lot of "bad" guys to offer.

[Witherweaver]

We've got a notoriously low amount of information on the setup. No information about the possible PRs, nor the number of scum players.

What's the usual amount of mafia in a 13 player game?

It depends how many factions there are. My bet would be two scum factions, maybe 2 each ? It pretty much has to be 3/4 scum total. C9++ is a 13-player setup that can result in only 2 scum, but that's with almost no PRs for town, which I doubt is the case here.

Why are you betting on this?

Which part, there being PRs ? TO be clear, the situation where C9++ only gives 2 scum is one where town has exactly one PR. This is an invented game, faust has obviously put work in the flavor, so I assume there's more.

I suppose the whole QT thing could justify there being very few, but I guess I don't expect that because if I were modding an ASoIaF game, I would want to give a fair amount of power to both (all ?) factions.

The part where you're betting there are two scum factions of two each.

[Witherweaver]

Oh right. I'm not really assuming that, I just think it's somewhat likely given that ASoIaF has a lot of "bad" guys to offer.

So who are you thinking?  White Walkers and someone?  Scum faction shouldn't be a house, since those are independent. 

[Witherweaver]

Actually I guess this is relevant:

There are 13 players, some of which are mafia and rest town (Realm-aligned in this game). At the start of the game, each player is assigned to a House or House-free. Houses do not indicate alignment. Similarly, flavor names are independent of alignment.

[Robz888]

Flavor names are independent of alignment, but they indicate which house each person starts in, do they not? But perhaps we should all publicly clarify what houses we are in to begin with?

[pacovf]

My bet prior to the game starting was that the anti-realm faction would be the Targaryens, given that we are working on season 2 knowledge. I guess I can kinda see the Greyjoys too? They are the scum of Westeros after all. Can't see the Whitewalkers, it makes zero sense from a flavour point of view (oh no Joffrey was secretly a wight all this time and nobody noticed!). So if there is another faction, dunno... The wildlings? Makes slightly more sense. Or if we go from the opening flavour, some sort of Varys-aligned faction?

Flavor names are independent of alignment, but they indicate which house each person starts in, do they not? But perhaps we should all publicly clarify what houses we are in to begin with?

I think we should. More information is always good for town, right? Especially when it is kinda probable that the information is already available to scum (assuming one scum faction only).

[Teproc]

Flavor names are independent of alignment, but they indicate which house each person starts in, do they not? But perhaps we should all publicly clarify what houses we are in to begin with?

I agree, but again, this game started minutes ago, so we could wait for everyone to get a chance to get here.

@WW : Actually you're right, the fact that houses can't really be scum factions narrow the options down significantly.

PPE : Open info is not always good for town, not by a long shot.

[pacovf]

If scum already knows that information, there is no downside to letting everybody else know it too. I'm not talking about publicly announcing PRs or some such.

Agree that we should wait for (most) everybody to say something about it first.

[Teproc]

I'm just disagreeing with the general idea that more information is good for town. In the articular case of claiming QTs, I'm in favor.

I'm also in favor of claiming QT powers for the same reason, but I'm curious to see if anyone can come up with a good reason not to do it.

[XerxesPraelor]

I don't see any reason not to claim houses. Scum can just switch houses to figure it out anyways, so we won't have any qt secrets for long.

[Teproc]

Actually we kind of will since QTs are reset every time.

- House QTs will be newly set up each time someone joins or leaves the house. It is thus not possible for players that join a house to see any of the previous discussion.

[XerxesPraelor]

But they'll still know basically who's in which house.

[Witherweaver]

I'm just disagreeing with the general idea that more information is good for town. In the articular case of claiming QTs, I'm in favor.

I'm also in favor of claiming QT powers for the same reason, but I'm curious to see if anyone can come up with a good reason not to do it.

Same discussion as in MU, really, though the numbers are slightly different.  If there are two teams of two, or even one team of three, they won't necessarily have all the house information.  There are four houses, right?  I think, in the end, it wasn't really a concern there.  Here the houses may matter more because there are associated abilities, but I can't think of a great reason to either claim or not claim.

I *guess* we could consider claiming house abilities and see if it makes sense to coordinate house movements for Town.

[pacovf]

Slightly disagree. In the case there is one scum faction with three people, they can't know everything that is said in the quicktopics, but they can be reasonably certain of who is where, barring houseless people, which I guess won't stay houseless for long anyway. And one of the things we are discussing is whether or not we should claim who is in which House. Which, frankly, I think is knowledge scum already has. Unless there are two scum factions, which right now I think unlikely. Feel free to convince me otherwise though.

Talking about houseless people, wherever they go, they will (probably) make that house have more members than any other, which means that they will get hand of the king, which means unblockable, unredirectable (huh?) House power. Something we have to think about.

I also think the only House movement we have to coordinate is such that Houses won't perish. A house that perishes is one less power moving around. Of course, depending on the power, it may be better to let it go than risking scum using it.

Does that make sense?

[Witherweaver]

Well, you don't know that the hypothetical three-scum team is evenly distributed among the houses.. two could be in the same house, or some could currently have no house, etc. 

Do you think it's a good idea to claim house powers?

[pacovf]

As I said, I am working on a worst-case scenario. Whether scum is evenly distributed or not, if we share that information everybody will know it.
If we decide not to claim house composition/powers, then maybe scum is not evenly distributed and furthermore one of them is houseless, in which case it's a net gain for town, or maybe scum is evenly distributed (or becomes so from D2 onwards), and then it's pure negative utility for town. I don't think we need to rely on the "luck of the draw", especially given that D1 usually doesn't have much info flying around.

So yeah, I am in favour of claiming houses and powers, unless someone makes a good case against it.

[Witherweaver]

I have no such good case.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmm. I'm considering claiming my house alignment as I think it might be slightly useful at this point. Eh. Might as well.

I'm. houseless. And I think it'd be more useful to be part of a house.
Obviously, you guys can't know that I'm realm-aligned. But from my perspective, I'd appreciate knowledge of the houses because I could bolster the power of whichever one is more useful or something. Honestly, not being part of a house, I don't even know what such powers would be.

So my vote goes in favor of claiming house powers I guess.

The debate over the possibility of multiple scumteams and how said team(s) are distributed doesn't seem that useful at this point IMO.
I think it's better to consider no qt safe, and it makes sense to me that scum would perhaps be randomly distributed amongst the houses, with perhaps one houseless as pacofv said.

[Hydrad]

Woo. Sorry I'm late to the party. Uh I'm in a house. People like me unlike ichi here.

[pacovf]

People like me unlike ichi here.

  wuh?

[Hydrad]

People like me unlike ichi here.

  wuh?

Just basically saying that I'm liked enough to start in a house where as no one wanted ichi.

[Hydrad]

Anyways so sitting on the iron throne means your the biggest house and that person got voted right?

[Ichimaru Gin]

People like me unlike ichi here.

  wuh?

Just basically saying that I'm liked enough to start in a house where as no one wanted ichi.

I knew it 
But too bad, I'm gonna force myself on some house anyway.

[pacovf]

Anyways so sitting on the iron throne means your the biggest house and that person got voted right?

Not sure. Sitting on the iron throne means you are the king, while the setup says:

Setup information

The House that has the most members will make the king. When any house reaches a majority, they are informed of that, and before this phase ends, they must vote for one of their own to become Hand of the King. A simple majority of the weighted votes is enough here. The Hand of the King performs the night action of the House until another House gets more members. All night actions of the Hand of the King can't be blocked or Redirected in any way. If the Hand of the King is not elected in time, the House will not be able to perform any night action.

Which I think means that House Lannister "made" the king, but that doesn't mean that Joffrey is the Hand of the King (probably somebody else is?), or that they currently have the most members; some other house has to get more members for House Lannister to lose the Iron Throne, and hence the Hand.

[Witherweaver]

Looks like houses determine the Hand of the King, not the King.   A house with majority selects the Hand of the King:

The House that has the most members will make the king. When any house reaches a majority, they are informed of that, and before this phase ends, they must vote for one of their own to become Hand of the King. A simple majority of the weighted votes is enough here. The Hand of the King performs the night action of the House until another House gets more members. All night actions of the Hand of the King can't be blocked or Redirected in any way. If the Hand of the King is not elected in time, the House will not be able to perform any night action.

Not sure if who actually sits on the Iron Throne can change or means anything.

PPE: Pacovf said something similar.  I don't actually think this means House Lannister "made the king".  I think it just means Joffry is on the Iron Throne, and the Hand is yet to be chosen.

[pacovf]

I put "made" in quote marks because obviously Joffrey had to start as the king for flavour reasons. But in game terms, whichever House gets the most members "makes the king", so it seems like the title does change hands. We have no idea what the title does, if anything. Maybe it's tied to an empowerment condition, for all I know.

[Hydrad]

Hmmm. Well I think sitting on the iron throne is definitely possible. Just wondering how we decide who sits their

[Hydrad]

Also guys if there are doctors or things in this setup we need to be careful about claiming those since scum will know you can't target anyone in the same house as you.

[Witherweaver]

My interpretation of the setup post is that "make the king" is a Mafia phrase that means you select someone with special status or power, and what we're really selecting, flavor-wise, is the Hand of the King.

[pingpongsam]

Unless someone is going to claim being Joffrey I believe that the king characters are NPCs flavored respective to the current majority house (say Ned for house Stark). I am currently House Lannister and since we are currently the majority house one of our own is Hand. The Hand acts with the authority of the king.

[Hydrad]

Ah that makes sense.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Unless someone is going to claim being Joffrey I believe that the king characters are NPCs flavored respective to the current majority house (say Ned for house Stark). I am currently House Lannister and since we are currently the majority house one of our own is Hand. The Hand acts with the authority of the king.

Did you decide amongst yourselves who became the Hand? Or was the decision made for you?

[Teproc]

I agree with what PPS said.

ash hasn't spoken yet, which annoys me (because theory talk is ash's thing), but anyway, let's start claiming houses.

I'm in House Stark.

[pingpongsam]

Unless someone is going to claim being Joffrey I believe that the king characters are NPCs flavored respective to the current majority house (say Ned for house Stark). I am currently House Lannister and since we are currently the majority house one of our own is Hand. The Hand acts with the authority of the king.

Did you decide amongst yourselves who became the Hand? Or was the decision made for you?

The decision was made for us. As I understand it moving forward, there will be voting to determine the Hand amongst the majority house members.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well I am pretty much 100% planning on joining a house today (though I guess it won't go into effect until tonight, since that counts as the next phase I believe).

I could see some advantages to joining the majority house maybe. I kinda want to wait until Hydrad claims his house though, so I can eliminate at least one that way.

[pacovf]

Unless someone is going to claim being Joffrey I believe that the king characters are NPCs flavored respective to the current majority house (say Ned for house Stark). I am currently House Lannister and since we are currently the majority house one of our own is Hand. The Hand acts with the authority of the king.

Did you decide amongst yourselves who became the Hand? Or was the decision made for you?

The decision was made for us. As I understand it moving forward, there will be voting to determine the Hand amongst the majority house members.

If I understand correctly, you are stuck with that Hand of the King until he leaves the house or dies, no? I'm also gonna guess he's Tywin Lannister

The point about the King being an NPC makes a lot of sense, actually.

Anyway, for those of you that aren't big on their aSoIaF/GoT lore, Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is Catelyn Stark's uncle, so yeah, I am in House Stark too.

[pacovf]

Oh, and vote: Ichimaru Gin, for being a landless lowborn.

[Hydrad]

I'm in house baratheon but ichi you should join us anyways :p. Also I thought that you could change houses and it would change right away? I'm on phone right now so maybe I'm misremembering.

[Hydrad]

Ah nevermind I reread. looks like its at the beginning of the next phase when you change houses

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm in house baratheon but ichi you should join us anyways :p. Also I thought that you could change houses and it would change right away? I'm on phone right now so maybe I'm misremembering.

Hmm. Maybe I will . I'm actually waiting on a reply as to how one actually does change houses. I'm confused as to whether one posts here in the thread or sends a PM to the mod.

Oh, and vote: Ichimaru Gin, for being a landless lowborn.

I knew that not knowing almost anything about this series would come back to bite me...oh well. And sorry for misspelling your name, I'll get it right next time 

[Hydrad]

I'm in house baratheon but ichi you should join us anyways :p. Also I thought that you could change houses and it would change right away? I'm on phone right now so maybe I'm misremembering.

Hmm. Maybe I will . I'm actually waiting on a reply as to how one actually does change houses. I'm confused as to whether one posts here in the thread or sends a PM to the mod.

Oh, and vote: Ichimaru Gin, for being a landless lowborn.

I knew that not knowing almost anything about this series would come back to bite me...oh well. And sorry for misspelling your name, I'll get it right next time 

Don't worry. I have no idea about the flavour either...

[pacovf]

And sorry for misspelling your name, I'll get it right next time 

Gaaah, I'm tempted to unvote, but I must remain strong!

[Robz888]

Given that scum probably know must stuff already (they probably have a scum in each house or close to it), I support full claiming all house stuff and powers.

I am Jorah Mormont. I am in House Targaryen.

[Teproc]

I also support it. I'm waiting for ash to come in and tell us what he thinks of the setup before I do it though.

[ashersky]

vote: pacofv

Not RVS.

[Teproc]

Enough with the crypticness ash.

[Teproc]

FYI, ash is also in House Stark and he has been similarly terse in the QT.

[Witherweaver]

I predict a scumslip argument!

[ashersky]

Enough with the crypticness ash.

Enough with the attitude, Tep.  I'm on my iPad on the bus.  Long reasoning posts come from computers.

You should be able to explain just as well; you saw his posts in the QT and here.

[ashersky]

I predict a scumslip argument!

Nope.

[Teproc]

Enough with the crypticness ash.

Enough with the attitude, Tep.  I'm on my iPad on the bus.  Long reasoning posts come from computers.

You should be able to explain just as well; you saw his posts in the QT and here.

Fine.

I have an idea of where you're going, but I'm not going to make your case for you.

[Witherweaver]

Cool, I'll await Ash's explanation when he gets back to his computer.

I am sworn to House Targaryen.

[pacovf]

I am not sure of what exactly you are accusing me of. And huh since apparently it's based on the quicktopic, I would guess most other people don't either? So I guess we'll have to wait until you can get your hands on a computer.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So Teproc, pacovf and Ash are all in house Stark then?

[Teproc]

So Teproc, pacovf and Ash are all in house Stark then?

That is correct. It's only us three. I'm assuming there are four Lannister since they've got the king, then maybe 2/3 Baratheon, 2 Targaryen and 1/2 houseless ? Or maybe it's just three Lannister and they have the king for flavor reasons.

[pacovf]

pacovf

 

[Ichimaru Gin]

I just noticed that I had never looked that closely at your avatar before.
That wouldn't happen to be from the game flOw would it?

[pacovf]

It is! Awesome flash game, it's also my avatar in some other forums. Don't know if this is the best place to talk about it though

[Teproc]

Since we're talking about meaningless stuff, I just noticed your new signature Ichi. I approve.

[Witherweaver]

Since we're talking about meaningless stuff, I just noticed your new signature Ichi. I approve.

Would you say that it's interesting?

[pacovf]

When we will be doing rereads during D4, we are going to hate ourselves for all the fluff!

I've got the coolest revealed character, BTW.

[Teproc]

Since we're talking about meaningless stuff, I just noticed your new signature Ichi. I approve.

Would you say that it's interesting?

I've been poached by Ichi's lawyers already so I'm trying to avoid that

@pacovf : Not any more. I'm Brienne of Tarth !

[pacovf]

@pacovf : Not any more. I'm Brienne of Tarth !

Ah, a worthy contender... but not enough! Won't say why I think so though, to keep this spoiler free

[ashersky]

pacovf made a series of posts in the QT that made it clear from the start that he was new scum.  He had some assumptions that only scum would make right off the bat.  He continued those into the thread.

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

He then moves on to scum will try to get in all the houses as quickly as possible and scum will know everything we do and say in all houses.  I think that's what led to the mod's note here in the game thread about new QTs all the time.  But again, this is scum planning, not scum hunting.  This is thinking like scum, not thinking like town. 

He then makes a joke that I am chatting in my scum QT.  That's a lot of self-awareness projected onto another player who was sleeping (I'm assuming he doesn't know my time zone difference is quite big).

As soon as I return, I say that I have thoughts but don't want to share them.  All of a sudden, super talkative pacovf just goes silent.  Like, completely.  Ever see crabs running around on the rocks at the beach?  As soon as they notice you, they disappear and don't come out.

That's the stuff from the QT.  I have to run, but it's a good start.  You can read his posts here and see the same trend.

He's scum, I'm fairly certain there's one in Lannister, too.

[ashersky]

I'm also assuming one largish scum team (3-4).  That's based on the setup info saying there are some mafia and the rest are town.  An SK or WW couldn't be either of those, so I think multiple factions (as well as Survivors, etc.) are out.

Plus, pacovf saying scum knows all house info tells me there is enough scum to be in all houses.

[Teproc]

ash, I would suggest you read the House QT from the beginning.

[Witherweaver]

Since we're talking about meaningless stuff, I just noticed your new signature Ichi. I approve.

Would you say that it's interesting?

I've been poached by Ichi's lawyers already so I'm trying to avoid that

@pacovf : Not any more. I'm Brienne of Tarth !

Really?

Vote: Teproc

[Teproc]

This is definitely a scumslip argument by the way (part of it is anyway).

[Teproc]

Since we're talking about meaningless stuff, I just noticed your new signature Ichi. I approve.

Would you say that it's interesting?

I've been poached by Ichi's lawyers already so I'm trying to avoid that

@pacovf : Not any more. I'm Brienne of Tarth !

Really?

Vote: Teproc

Serious vote ?

[Hydrad]

ash, I would suggest you read the House QT from the beginning.

Does this mean you disagree with it a bit? or are you with asher on this case?

[Witherweaver]

Since we're talking about meaningless stuff, I just noticed your new signature Ichi. I approve.

Would you say that it's interesting?

I've been poached by Ichi's lawyers already so I'm trying to avoid that

@pacovf : Not any more. I'm Brienne of Tarth !

Really?

Vote: Teproc

Serious vote ?

Verily.

[Teproc]

@Hydrad : I'd rather not say too much, but overall I disagree.

@WW : I'm still not sure if this is serious. Flavor doesn't matter one we claim houses, if that's your problem.

[pacovf]

PPE 7

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

Have you read our empower condition, Ash? 

He then moves on to scum will try to get in all the houses as quickly as possible and scum will know everything we do and say in all houses.  I think that's what led to the mod's note here in the game thread about new QTs all the time.  But again, this is scum planning, not scum hunting.  This is thinking like scum, not thinking like town.

Have you noticed the other people coming to the same conclusion as me? Are we all scum?

He then makes a joke that I am chatting in my scum QT.  That's a lot of self-awareness projected onto another player who was sleeping (I'm assuming he doesn't know my time zone difference is quite big).

Jokes are jokes. I know there was a big time difference between the two of us.

As soon as I return, I say that I have thoughts but don't want to share them.  All of a sudden, super talkative pacovf just goes silent.  Like, completely.  Ever see crabs running around on the rocks at the beach?  As soon as they notice you, they disappear and don't come out.

You said so in a tone that was very very clear that you didn't want to share them. I respected that.

[Witherweaver]

@Hydrad : I'd rather not say too much, but overall I disagree.

@WW : I'm still not sure if this is serious. Flavor doesn't matter one we claim houses, if that's your problem.

Flavor matters when you claim mine.

[Hydrad]

@Hydrad : I'd rather not say too much, but overall I disagree.

@WW : I'm still not sure if this is serious. Flavor doesn't matter one we claim houses, if that's your problem.

Flavor matters when you claim mine.

whoa what? this game is suddenly getting interesting

[pacovf]

@Hydrad : I'd rather not say too much, but overall I disagree.

@WW : I'm still not sure if this is serious. Flavor doesn't matter one we claim houses, if that's your problem.

Flavor matters when you claim mine.

Well now that is interesting.

[Teproc]

@Hydrad : I'd rather not say too much, but overall I disagree.

@WW : I'm still not sure if this is serious. Flavor doesn't matter one we claim houses, if that's your problem.

Flavor matters when you claim mine.

Did you check your PM ? Because I just did and it clearly says I'm Brienne of Tarth.

faust, could you confirm there wasn't a mod error in assigning flavor ?

[Witherweaver]

I did, and mine clearly says I'm Brienne of Tarth. 

[Hydrad]

but would scum even be given fake flavour names? I'm confused as that doesn't make sense since flavour shouldn't indicate roles or alignment

[Teproc]

Because the only explanation other than WW or faust making a mistake is that WW is scum and Brienne is his fakeclaim, which makes no sense because it gives us a free scum lynch (even if you lynch me first), so...

[Teproc]

I did, and mine clearly says I'm Brienne of Tarth. 

And you're in House Baratheon ? Both do make sense for her...

[Witherweaver]

House Targaryen

[Hydrad]

flavour names are said to indicate where you start in a house or not right? I don't know this flavour but whos house should that person be aligned to normally?

[Witherweaver]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I'm supposed to be the Kingsguard gy.

[Witherweaver]

Barristan Selmy.

[Teproc]

I mean I even have flavor text that pretty clearly explains why I'm sworn to House Stark (because Catelyn was there when Renly died and she protected me), so we presumably have different flavor texts since yours must be emphasizing her love for REnly more...

This is just strange.

PPE : OK House Targaryen makes no sense, there's a mistake then.

[Witherweaver]

Based on what the rest of the flavor in my PM says.

[Witherweaver]

Okay.. assuming just a mod error then.

Unvote

[Teproc]

So... is WW an IC ?

I generally don't like to go too fast with these, but he just figured out who he was from his flavor text. Would scum even have flavor text for their fakeclaims ?

Presumably WW could have faked that , but why even start it in the first place ?

[pacovf]

I think it was just a mod screw up, and he realized it. I don't think you should give any towncred/scumpoints for it.

[Witherweaver]

So... is WW an IC ?

I generally don't like to go too fast with these, but he just figured out who he was from his flavor text. Would scum even have flavor text for their fakeclaims ?

Presumably WW could have faked that , but why even start it in the first place ?

That would be very elaborate.  But, flavor and alignment are independent, so scum presumably has the same type of flavor information that I do.

[Teproc]

I think it was just a mod screw up, and he realized it. I don't think you should give any towncred/scumpoints for it.

Think about the scenario where WW is scum and tell me if it makes sense for this to happen.

Is Voltaire in this game ? I think he is right ? He'll agree with me on this I think. WHich is bad in a way because we're getting an unfair advantage but... I mean I'm not just going to ignore it.

[Hydrad]

I'm guessing flavor doesn't really matter for alignment? I would say I get a towny vibe but not far enough to say a IC.

[pacovf]

I see what you mean. If he is scum and notices a town player has the same claimed flavour, he's got no reason to think that he is lying, so if he manages to push his lynch he will flip the correct flavour, and he will be lynched next. That's what you are thinking, right? And since it makes zero sense for scum, he must be town.

(The only other possibility would be a flavour changing PR (faceless) for scum, but since we are in a normal game, that's not possible)

Yeah, I guess it kinda makes an IC out of WW.

[Teproc]

I see what you mean. If he is scum and notices a town player has the same claimed flavour, he's got no reason to think that he is lying, so if he manages to push his lynch he will flip the correct flavour, and he will be lynched next. That's what you are thinking, right? And since it makes zero sense for scum, he must be town.

Pretty much. If I were scum and saw my fake flavor being claimed, I would just send a PM to a mod and complain that I don't actually have a safe flavor claim which is really unfair. I might even assume it's a mod mistake. I certainly wouldn't say anything.

[Witherweaver]

Sweet, IC.  Take that Robz.

[Teproc]

And even without that, this assumes that scum actually got a flavor paragraph wit heir fakeclaim, which would be unusual. Or that WW just pretended to have a flavour paragraph giving him Barristan, which is actually not possible since he can't take the risk of someone actually having Barristan.

[pacovf]

I think you are misunderstanding how the flavour works, though. Characters and alignment are unrelated to each other. Whether he was scum or town, he would still be Barristan, he wouldn't be, say, Victarion Greyjoy with a Barristan fakeclaim. Maybe the introduction paragraph isn't, but that's about it.

[Hydrad]

unless. This actually just a super weird play that WW came up with to gain IC!

I don't really think that this happened though.

[Teproc]

Oh right. So... let's think if it sill works.

I'm a little less sure, but it's still a pretty good reason to never want to lynch WW.

[pacovf]

I guess the other possibility is both WW and Teproc being scumpartners and planning this in the scum quicktopic, but it seems craaaaazy elaborate, especially since neither actually shared their flavour when they revealed their houses. I can't see only WW being scum, not the way Teproc has given him crazy towncred right off the bat.

[Witherweaver]

Well I'm actually a tad suspicious of Teproc, because it's clear from how my PM is that the same format could easily be used for the scum PM, with flavor name and paragraph.  But if Teproc is scum, he may be nervous about making the same assumption because he's worried about accidentally revealing something... scum tends to be extra careful about making assumptions. 

Not enough to vote, just noting suspicion. 

[Teproc]

Well I'm actually a tad suspicious of Teproc, because it's clear from how my PM is that the same format could easily be used for the scum PM, with flavor name and paragraph.  But if Teproc is scum, he may be nervous about making the same assumption because he's worried about accidentally revealing something... scum tends to be extra careful about making assumptions. 

Not enough to vote, just noting suspicion. 

My assumption was that scum would have scummy flavour and then a fakeclaim with very few details.

Which is obviously wrong for a number of reasons that should have occured to me, but that's where my mind went.

[ashersky]

ash, I would suggest you read the House QT from the beginning.

It's like 20 something posts.  I've every single post multiple times.  Unless you believe there are invisible posts in the negative numbers?

I strongly believe Teproc is town and pacovf is scum.

[Teproc]

ash, I would suggest you read the House QT from the beginning.

It's like 20 something posts.  I've every single post multiple times.  Unless you believe there are invisible posts in the negative numbers?

I strongly believe Teproc is town and pacovf is scum.

I mean the very first post, made by faust. That invalidates your first point against pacovf (the one about him specifically taling about House Lannister).

You find him scummy for going silent right after you posted. I did the exact same thing, yet you didn't find me scummy for it. Why ?

[Witherweaver]

pacovf made a series of posts in the QT that made it clear from the start that he was new scum.  He had some assumptions that only scum would make right off the bat.  He continued those into the thread.

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

What assumptions did he continue into the thread?

I don't understand not actively empowering house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why would those two be related?

[pacovf]

PPE 1


While we wait for Ash to come to his senses (or refresh his case on me), here are the current claims:

Stark:
pacovf (Brynden Tully)
Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)
Ashersky

Lannister:
pingponsam

Baratheon:
Hydrad

Targaryen:
Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)

House-free:
Ichimaru Gin

We are missing:

Voltaire
Azadin
silverspawn
EgorK
XerxesPraelor


I guess once we know where (nearly) everybody is, we can discuss whether we should share the House powers (I think we should), and discuss which house Ichimaru should join (assuming he is the only House-free player), so that the respective power gets unblockable and unredirectable.

[pacovf]

I don't understand not actively empowering house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why would those two be related?

Apparently Ashersky doesn't either.

[Teproc]

pacovf made a series of posts in the QT that made it clear from the start that he was new scum.  He had some assumptions that only scum would make right off the bat.  He continued those into the thread.

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

What assumptions did he continue into the thread?

I don't understand not actively empowering house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why would those two be related?

Just trust me when I say it's completely justified by what's in faust's opening post. We haven't decided to claim that stuff yet, so I'm hesitant to say more.

[pacovf]

Oh, and I am officially not the coolest revealed character anymore 

[Twistedarcher]

Mod mistakes were made.

[pacovf]

That clears WW 100%, in my opinion. Or else he deserves MVP at the end of the game.

[XerxesPraelor]

I am Targaryen.

[Hydrad]

dang it I want more friends. My house is the smallest it looks like D:

[Hydrad]

So if lannister is the biggest house that means 3 of the 4 people left are at least in lannister?

[pacovf]

Huh, normally you know how many people are in your house.

I mean, the Stark quicktopic got a mod post saying who was in there.

[XerxesPraelor]

The mod didn't tell us till we asked.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, IG, please don't join our house.

[ashersky]

The mod didn't tell us till we asked.

Tep, I assume you didn't ask.  Neither did I.

Pacofv asked in his scum QT, then.

[ashersky]

Teproc, you mean the killing all Lannisters thing?

Irrelevant, in my opinion.

[ashersky]

As for your silence, Tep, count posts before I said hmmmm.  Pacovf was super active -- you weren't.

[Hydrad]

Oh thats quite a empowerment condition.

IG you should join my house! It helps our empowerment condition I think.

Also In my QT I had a mod post stating who all was in the house if thats what you guys are talking about? I'm slightly confused

[Hydrad]

Also if two houses tie for biggest amount of people who gets to be the king?

[pacovf]

Teproc, you mean the killing all Lannisters thing?

Irrelevant, in my opinion.

What

[Witherweaver]

I'm going to go with Ash on this.  Vote: Pacofv

[pacovf]

As for your silence, Tep, count posts before I said hmmmm.  Pacovf was super active -- you weren't.

What

[pacovf]

The mod didn't tell us till we asked.

Tep, I assume you didn't ask.  Neither did I.

Pacofv asked in his scum QT, then.

Really.

[pacovf]

Teproc, you mean the killing all Lannisters thing?

Irrelevant, in my opinion.

What

I think I need to say it again, because I still can't believe you just said that.

What

[XerxesPraelor]

Can you tell me when he posted it? If it's shortly before or after 2:41 ET, he could have just decided he should do it for everyone.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm going to go with Ash on this.  Vote: Pacofv

Are you serious?

[Hydrad]

I got a message around that time saying who was in my house

[faust]

There has been an accident involving the flavor. I failed to type the correct flavor name in one PM. The player in question knows his real flavor name now. Note that, as per OP, flavor does NOT indicate alignment.

[pacovf]

Can you tell me when he posted it? If it's shortly before or after 2:41 ET, he could have just decided he should do it for everyone.

2:42 PM ET (US), the 9th of november.

Really, I still can't believe Ashersky is seriously pushing this case. I can understand pushing someone to see if he gets nervous and slips something... but this is truly insane. The only reason people aren't calling him on it is because only Teproc and I get to see what he is referring to.

[XerxesPraelor]

vote: ashersky

for a horrible case and provoking a situation in which his house had to give up information to everyone.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.1

silverspawn (1): Ichimaru Gin
Ichimaru Gin (1): pacovf
pacovf (2): ashersky, Witherweaver
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (8): silverspawn, Hydrad, Teproc, EgorK, Robz888, pingpongsam, azadin, Voltaire

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, IG, please don't join our house.

Ok. And which house is that again?
Also, I'm guessing there's a good reason for it (barring you being scum), but would you rather not say at this point?

[Hydrad]

Also, IG, please don't join our house.

Ok. And which house is that again?
Also, I'm guessing there's a good reason for it (barring you being scum), but would you rather not say at this point?

Looks like hes in Targaryen.

[Hydrad]

Also I'm assuming if your house free you don't have a QT at all? or do all house free people share a QT?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also I'm assuming if your house free you don't have a QT at all? or do all house free people share a QT?

Yeah. I have no qt to post in--which makes things kind of boring.
So are the house qt's open day and night? Because that seems pretty powerful then.

[ashersky]

I'm so sure of my read on pacovf that I will willingly be lynched today if enough trustworthy players promise to lynch him tomorrow (or if a vig exists, to shoot him).

[Hydrad]

Also I'm assuming if your house free you don't have a QT at all? or do all house free people share a QT?

Yeah. I have no qt to post in--which makes things kind of boring.
So are the house qt's open day and night? Because that seems pretty powerful then.

Ya I'm able to talk in my QT at any point. but I'm also bored as my partner seems to be not posting... so i'm all alone also lol

[ashersky]

Also I'm assuming if your house free you don't have a QT at all? or do all house free people share a QT?

Yeah. I have no qt to post in--which makes things kind of boring.
So are the house qt's open day and night? Because that seems pretty powerful then.

Ya I'm able to talk in my QT at any point. but I'm also bored as my partner seems to be not posting... so i'm all alone also lol

See, a scum slip argument is saying hydrad is scum for saying partner.

I assume only two in your house?

[Hydrad]

Also I'm assuming if your house free you don't have a QT at all? or do all house free people share a QT?

Yeah. I have no qt to post in--which makes things kind of boring.
So are the house qt's open day and night? Because that seems pretty powerful then.

Ya I'm able to talk in my QT at any point. but I'm also bored as my partner seems to be not posting... so i'm all alone also lol

See, a scum slip argument is saying hydrad is scum for saying partner.

I assume only two in your house?

Ya just me and one other person. So i think we are the smallest house.

[pacovf]

I'm so sure of my read on pacovf that I will willingly be lynched today if enough trustworthy players promise to lynch him tomorrow (or if a vig exists, to shoot him).

You have no case at all. I am not going to bother to answer you, not after you refused to acknowledge that your strongest argument against me doesn't actually work.

What you are doing makes so little sense, that I have no idea what to think about you. I know you have a reputation for behaving crazily, but this surpasses everything I've seen you do the few times I've followed a game you were in.

[ashersky]

I'm so sure of my read on pacovf that I will willingly be lynched today if enough trustworthy players promise to lynch him tomorrow (or if a vig exists, to shoot him).

You have no case at all. I am not going to bother to answer you, not after you refused to acknowledge that your strongest argument against me doesn't actually work.

What you are doing makes so little sense, that I have no idea what to think about you. I know you have a reputation for behaving crazily, but this surpasses everything I've seen you do the few times I've followed a game you were in.

You can't respond because it's rock solid. You were giddy new scum and we could tell.  It happens.

Best thing you can do for your team is try to redirect attention before eventually self-hammering.

[pacovf]

You can't respond because it's rock solid.

Where is this rock-solid case you are talking about? I'll gladly respond to that one, rather than the one I've read already.

You were giddy new scum and we could tell.  It happens.

 Sure mate

[Voltaire]

Here, catching up.

[Robz888]

Here, catching up.

I just caught up. WW is absolutely an IC.

[XerxesPraelor]

Robz and ww can confirm, I think.

[ashersky]

Here, catching up.

I just caught up. WW is absolutely an IC.

Why?

They could both be scum, planned.

[Voltaire]

I think it was just a mod screw up, and he realized it. I don't think you should give any towncred/scumpoints for it.

Think about the scenario where WW is scum and tell me if it makes sense for this to happen.

Is Voltaire in this game ? I think he is right ? He'll agree with me on this I think. WHich is bad in a way because we're getting an unfair advantage but... I mean I'm not just going to ignore it.

OK, just got to this, I don't even know what the resolution to it is, but at this point, I would agree it makes WW an IC for the reasons Teproc laid out here.

[Voltaire]

I'm so sure of my read on pacovf that I will willingly be lynched today if enough trustworthy players promise to lynch him tomorrow (or if a vig exists, to shoot him).

I think this is town ash but I don't share his read on pacovf. This is the same person with the QT knew-about-lannister thing, right? Because ash, that's silly. Your QT (from what I have gleaned here) said Lannister. Anyone with a passing knowledge of the flavor knows Lannister is a House (they're one of the two most famous - people who don't even read/watch the series sometimes know this).

[Voltaire]

And oh I'm Lannister if I haven't been POE'd already.

I currently caution against claiming House powers as ours is super-thematic and I want to think about what that might mean for a bit more.

[Voltaire]

Here, catching up.

I just caught up. WW is absolutely an IC.

Why?

They could both be scum, planned.

Yes, possible. Also about a 1% chance.

[Voltaire]

And it super-duper links them if either of them flip so huzzah! Yay us.

[Voltaire]

I personally suspect most of the powers in this game are the QTs/Houses.

Also, something very interesting - I was confused by the setup saying the largest House makes the king, then it talking about Hand of the King (as opposed to king). I asked faust in our QT if there was a king and he refused to answer the question. So...something!

[pacovf]

I currently caution against claiming House powers as ours is super-thematic and I want to think about what that might mean for a bit more.

If I understand correctly, there are 4 people in House Lannister. Which means that it is very likely that at least one of them is scum. So there isn't any real reason not to share the info with everybody else.

Of course, feel free to think about it longer.

[Voltaire]

I currently caution against claiming House powers as ours is super-thematic and I want to think about what that might mean for a bit more.

If I understand correctly, there are 4 people in House Lannister. Which means that it is very likely that at least one of them is scum. So there isn't any real reason not to share the info with everybody else.

Of course, feel free to think about it longer.

Decent odds, yes. But it's not so much our House as the others. If ours is thematic, I assume the others are, and I want to make sure there aren't flavor reasons to keep them secret, since clearly flavor relates to QT roles.

[Voltaire]

vote: silver I think.

[pacovf]

Also, something very interesting - I was confused by the setup saying the largest House makes the king, then it talking about Hand of the King (as opposed to king). I asked faust in our QT if there was a king and he refused to answer the question. So...something!

We could always try to lynch Joffrey, stating intent to hammer beforehand. I suspect that if someone is the king (now, Joffrey), he would say so before he gets lynched.

I'm in favour of claiming flavour by the way, in case it wasn't already clear.

[Voltaire]

There's no way in hell anyone is lynchable by flavor name.

[pacovf]

There's no way in hell anyone is lynchable by flavor name.

Well, you were implying that there might be a king. Right now, the king is joffrey. If joffrey is actually a player, I would argue that lynching the player or the character should give the same result. You are saying this wouldn't work?

[Voltaire]

There's no way in hell anyone is lynchable by flavor name.

Well, you were implying that there might be a king. Right now, the king is joffrey. If joffrey is actually a player, I would argue that lynching the player or the character should give the same result. You are saying this wouldn't work?

I'm saying there is clearly a king, based on the fact that Joffrey was revealed to be said king at the start of the day, that it was in bold, indicating that it's more than flavor, and there's clearly a mechanic behind it, as evidenced by the fact that faust wouldn't tell me about it.

Current guess is that if scum faction is Varys-aligned they get a bonus every time the king dies or something.

[azadin]

Here, catching up. (Still have limited internet access until this weekend, as I mentioned in my sign up post).

[Voltaire]

All I know is, the largest House makes the king, and Joffrey is king, and I sure as hell didn't make him.*

*I'm the Queen of Thorns

[pacovf]

vote: silver I think.

Why silver? I think he is V/LA anyway.

There's no way in hell anyone is lynchable by flavor name.

Well, you were implying that there might be a king. Right now, the king is joffrey. If joffrey is actually a player, I would argue that lynching the player or the character should give the same result. You are saying this wouldn't work?

I'm saying there is clearly a king, based on the fact that Joffrey was revealed to be said king at the start of the day, that it was in bold, indicating that it's more than flavor, and there's clearly a mechanic behind it, as evidenced by the fact that faust wouldn't tell me about it.

Current guess is that if scum faction is Varys-aligned they get a bonus every time the king dies or something.

Interesting^TM

On the subject of House powers, I think the Starks would agree to divulge ours if the other Houses agreed to it too.

[Hydrad]

I am with PPS on thinking that the king is just a NPC when that house is the biggest. Thats my opinion on how its working

[Voltaire]

vote: silver I think.

Why silver? I think he is V/LA anyway.

Because he was the only one who hasn't posted. 

[pacovf]

vote: silver I think.

Why silver? I think he is V/LA anyway.

Because he was the only one who hasn't posted. 

Aside from EgorK and Azadin (back then), you are right, yes.

[Hydrad]

Just to save time since this will all be announced anyways. Egork is also in baratheon. So that means everyone else is in lannister I think if they are the biggest house.

[azadin]

Will post more in a bit, but for now, I am also Lannister, if that wasn't clear already.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Would you say that it's interesting?

whoa what? this game is suddenly getting interesting

Well now that is interesting.

Also, something very interesting

Interesting^TM

Is Teproc the only one who read my new sig?

On a more serious note, I like my vote where it is. Silver seems like quite the trickster in a game I browsed with him in it.

PPE 2: So, it's looking like I'm the only houseless person?

[Voltaire]

vote: silver I think.

Why silver? I think he is V/LA anyway.

Because he was the only one who hasn't posted. 

Aside from EgorK and Azadin (back then), you are right, yes.

And I didn't realize that about azadin because he's in my House and has posted there. So Hydrad hasn't posted yet? vote: Hydrad

[Hydrad]

vote: silver I think.

Why silver? I think he is V/LA anyway.

Because he was the only one who hasn't posted. 

Aside from EgorK and Azadin (back then), you are right, yes.

And I didn't realize that about azadin because he's in my House and has posted there. So Hydrad hasn't posted yet? vote: Hydrad

[Voltaire]

Oh right, EgorK. vote: EgorK

[pacovf]

I think we've got all the House claims then, aside from silverspawn, which I assume is in Lannister:

Stark:
pacovf (Brynden Tully)
Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)
Ashersky

Lannister:
pingpongsam
Voltaire (Queen of Thorns)
Azadin
??Silverspawn??

Targaryen:
Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)
XerxesPraelor

Baratheon:
Hydrad
EgorK

House-free:
Ichimaru Gin

So time to discuss whether we should share what the house powers are! I suggest discussing in each quicktopic whether you think your specific power should be revealed, and on the common thread whether all of them should.

As I said before, I think we probably already have scum in every house (except maybe Baratheon), so I am pro-reveal.

[azadin]

Ok, caught up. There was a lot of stuff there to process, but I can say that Hydrad has posted pretty often, so I'm not sure why Voltaire didn't realize this. As for everything else, I mostly skimmed so I didn't get any obvious reads. I will do a more thorough read in a few to look for that.

I've noticed a couple things. There is ash's case against pacovf, Witherweaver/Teproc mod mixup making WW an IC (not convinced on this yet, but there was discussion), and discussion on whether we should reveal our house powers.

Ash seems to be acting town, but I'm not 100% convinced on his case on pacovf yet (I will try to do a more thorough read to look for reads). I agree with him that there is likely only one scum faction.

How likely is it that scum are spread out enough that they know most of the house powers already? If they do, it's severely to our disadvantage to keep them secret from each other. I think that the opposite scenario (where they don't already know the majority of the house powers), is helpful to neither team. That makes me think it would be to town's advantage to reveal our house powers, so we can coordinate allegiances to utilize the best ones.

PPE: 2

[Hydrad]

should we also post empowerment things also? I guess at the moment I'm speaking for my house since I havn't been in contact with egork for a while.

[pacovf]

The same argument that would make us reveal the House powers would lead us to reveal the empower conditions: scum probably already knows them.

I guess we could still keep them secret so that scum doesn't know everything, if we aren't in the worst case scenario (scum in every house). It's not like the empower conditions are vital for town to develop a strategy, in my opinion.

Going to sleep, have fun kids.

[ashersky]

I agree to reveal powers and empowers.

[Hydrad]

I'm slightly hesitant to reveal because as long as egork isn't scum they don't know what our house does which could be nice. But I'm trying to figure out if it would help town or scum more to know this information.

[Teproc]

So ash apparently decided to be useless this game. I suggest we ignore him until he comes back to his senses (day 3 or so). He is very likely town though, it reminds me a lot of his fight against faust in Dynasty Warriors II.

That doesn't mean pacovf is town though, if anything I lean slightly scummy on him.

[Teproc]

I currently caution against claiming House powers as ours is super-thematic and I want to think about what that might mean for a bit more.

If I understand correctly, there are 4 people in House Lannister. Which means that it is very likely that at least one of them is scum. So there isn't any real reason not to share the info with everybody else.

Of course, feel free to think about it longer.

Decent odds, yes. But it's not so much our House as the others. If ours is thematic, I assume the others are, and I want to make sure there aren't flavor reasons to keep them secret, since clearly flavor relates to QT roles.

Flavor relates to QT roles obviously, but why is that a reason to keep them secret ? It's actuallya reason against it, since people might be able to guess them anyway.

As for the king stuff, I still like PPS' theory that there is a NP associated with each faction : I would assume ours is Ned, the Lannisters' is Joffrey, the Baratheons' is Stannis, and the Targaryens' is Daenerys.

[Teproc]

By the way, since it's out there, our empowerement condition is not exactly to kill all Lannisters, it is for House Lannister to have perished, which would just mean that no one is in it anymore. This means we would have to abandon the Lannister power if we wanted to get the Stark enpowered powerd, hence pacovf's comments taht ash finds scummy for some reason.

[pacovf]

It looks like Stark and Lannister are in favour of sharing House powers. We can wait for EgorK for Baratheon's opinion, and Targaryen hasn't voiced anything on the subject, AFAIR.

[ashersky]

By the way, since it's out there, our empowerement condition is not exactly to kill all Lannisters, it is for House Lannister to have perished, which would just mean that no one is in it anymore. This means we would have to abandon the Lannister power if we wanted to get the Stark enpowered powerd, hence pacovf's comments taht ash finds scummy for some reason.

Now I will suggest you read.  You act as though the Lannisters comment is the only thing I mentioned.  It's one of like five reasons he's super scum.  So drop that reason if you don't like it, but the rest you've said nothing about.

If you are going to white knight him (while simultaneously trying to keep an out), try to actually defend him fully.

[Teproc]

I' not white knighting, I'm saying your case is insane, and that you're going the way you've gone so many times bere, most often leading to failure.

Remember your "100%" comment about faust flipping scum in DWII ? This is what I feel you're doing here again.

I think you have a point with the nervousness with his joke about talking in the scum QT, but that's about it. I disagree with your point about him going silent, since I did go silent as well because it seemed like you had something to say and I wanted to know what it was... I assume pacovf had the same reaction.

[pacovf]

It's one of like five reasons he's super scum.  So drop that reason if you don't like it, but the rest you've said nothing about.

I can't believe you are still acting as if that reason is actually a reason at all. It looks like you genuinely thought I scumslipped because you didn't read the first post by Faust in the quicktopic, and you've tried to fit the narrative of me being scum with everything I've said since. And now that we've told you that your strongest argument simply doesn't work, you are still holding onto the case (fake scumslip argument included!) like a captain on a sinking ship.

Everything you've said after your initial case was said in pure, unabashed bad faith. I've got trouble taking you seriously right now.

I disagree with your point about him going silent, since I did go silent as well because it seemed like you had something to say and I wanted to know what it was... I assume pacovf had the same reaction.

Well, we had a nice discussion you and I about how to use our house power, and I stopped talking when I felt we had said everything we could say about it. Some time later, Ash comes and says "I have thoughts" (that's it!), despite the fact that you had asked him to say what he thought about the setup. Since I didn't have anything left to say about the setup, and it didn't look like Ash wanted to talk on the quicktopic (which is understandable), I left it there.

[pingpongsam]

I'm going to be rather V/LA until about Monday since I am cramming work, then packing and then traveling and then unpacking over this weekend. Then I'll actually be on vacation but should at least be able to follow the thread closely and post in spurts (sounds kind of gross, no?).

That said, I agree that WW is ICish via the mod mistake. Teproc distilled the WW ICishness so town points to him.

I am not at all following the pacovf angle and think ash is off the rails with this one. Typical ash, null here for now.

Voltaire seems opportunistically voting in search of traction.

Null on everyone else.

[ashersky]

It's one of like five reasons he's super scum.  So drop that reason if you don't like it, but the rest you've said nothing about.

I can't believe you are still acting as if that reason is actually a reason at all. It looks like you genuinely thought I scumslipped because you didn't read the first post by Faust in the quicktopic, and you've tried to fit the narrative of me being scum with everything I've said since. And now that we've told you that your strongest argument simply doesn't work, you are still holding onto the case (fake scumslip argument included!) like a captain on a sinking ship.

Everything you've said after your initial case was said in pure, unabashed bad faith. I've got trouble taking you seriously right now.

I disagree with your point about him going silent, since I did go silent as well because it seemed like you had something to say and I wanted to know what it was... I assume pacovf had the same reaction.

Well, we had a nice discussion you and I about how to use our house power, and I stopped talking when I felt we had said everything we could say about it. Some time later, Ash comes and says "I have thoughts" (that's it!), despite the fact that you had asked him to say what he thought about the setup. Since I didn't have anything left to say about the setup, and it didn't look like Ash wanted to talk on the quicktopic (which is understandable), I left it there.

Incredibly defensive for someone who claims to be town a few days into a game with few votes on him, don't you think?  Scumtell.

[Witherweaver]

I'm going to go with Ash on this.  Vote: Pacofv

Are you serious?

Why does it bother you?

[Witherweaver]

vote: ashersky

for a horrible case and provoking a situation in which his house had to give up information to everyone.

How do you have enough information to conclude that it's horrible?

And why is giving up information relevant?  If Ashersky is scum (which is implicit in your vote for him), his scum team already has said information, so what is your point here?

[pacovf]

Incredibly defensive for someone who claims to be town a few days into a game with few votes on him, don't you think?  Scumtell.

Well, I am answering your accusations because it's the only thing that is happening right now, I definitely don't feel threatened by your case (most people seem to think that you are wildly off). I wish people would finally say that they are ok with sharing House powers, so that we can discuss what is the best way to use them, and move beyond setup-discussion-phase, but it takes some time. Two people haven't even logged in yet.

I am still unclear on what I should do when I am accused. I got quite some slack in NM VI because I was overly defensive (I was town). At the end of the game, I asked if I should defend myself when under attack, since apparently doing so is scummy, and all the responses I got were to the effect that yes, I should defend myself even when I am town. So whatever you say, I guess?

[faust]

Vote Count 1.2

silverspawn (1): Ichimaru Gin
Ichimaru Gin (1): pacovf
pacovf (2): ashersky, Witherweaver
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor
EgorK (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (7): silverspawn, Hydrad, Teproc, EgorK, Robz888, pingpongsam, azadin

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[Robz888]

So ash apparently decided to be useless this game. I suggest we ignore him until he comes back to his senses (day 3 or so). He is very likely town though, it reminds me a lot of his fight against faust in Dynasty Warriors II.

That doesn't mean pacovf is town though, if anything I lean slightly scummy on him.

Agreed.

[Voltaire]

Okay, revealing stuff!

Lannister's power is that we pay our debts (heh). Our power is that, if someone has targeted the one of us performing the power, we perform back the most recent action they performed against us. I hope that's clear enough, it's tricky to paraphrase the QT on this without changing the meaning of our power.

Lannister's EMpowerment is that the House needs to (collectively) have been sworn to the other Houses. So a former Stark/Targ, and a former Baratheon, in a 6-player House would be enough, for example.

And what do we get for this trickery? Our power becomes stronger, no specifics. This leads me to think it is not something worth achieving as it seems super-difficult.

[Voltaire]

And now I'm out for two-ish days, checking in on occasion.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, revealing stuff!

Lannister's power is that we pay our debts (heh). Our power is that, if someone has targeted the one of us performing the power, we perform back the most recent action they performed against us. I hope that's clear enough, it's tricky to paraphrase the QT on this without changing the meaning of our power.

Lannister's EMpowerment is that the House needs to (collectively) have been sworn to the other Houses. So a former Stark/Targ, and a former Baratheon, in a 6-player House would be enough, for example.

And what do we get for this trickery? Our power becomes stronger, no specifics. This leads me to think it is not something worth achieving as it seems super-difficult.

Huh... interesting.. your ability is passive?  If any one of you gets targeted, then that player reciprocates?  You don't have to vote for the individual or anything?

[Teproc]

That doesn't sound difficult at all... The problem is the power can be used against town, so we might not want to empower it.

The Stark power is a bodyguard. It is empowered if the Lannister house has perished. It is not clear what it becomes then, but my guess is Doctor, because that makes sense as a Bodyguard upragde. Doesn't make that much sense for the Starks though.

[Voltaire]

Okay, revealing stuff!

Lannister's power is that we pay our debts (heh). Our power is that, if someone has targeted the one of us performing the power, we perform back the most recent action they performed against us. I hope that's clear enough, it's tricky to paraphrase the QT on this without changing the meaning of our power.

Lannister's EMpowerment is that the House needs to (collectively) have been sworn to the other Houses. So a former Stark/Targ, and a former Baratheon, in a 6-player House would be enough, for example.

And what do we get for this trickery? Our power becomes stronger, no specifics. This leads me to think it is not something worth achieving as it seems super-difficult.

Huh... interesting.. your ability is passive?  If any one of you gets targeted, then that player reciprocates?  You don't have to vote for the individual or anything?

No, it's not passive, we vote on it like the seutp says. I thought that part was assumed.

[Voltaire]

Lannister's power is that we pay our debts (heh). Our power is that, if someone has targeted the one of us performing the power, we perform back the most recent action they performed against us. I hope that's clear enough, it's tricky to paraphrase the QT on this without changing the meaning of our power.

I see where I may have been unclear. Trying again:

Our power is that, once it has been determined who will use our power, that person will target someone. If the targeted person has performed a power against the Lannister, we perform back the most recent action they performed against us.

[Voltaire]

So if (say) on N2 I target you, WW, and you're a cop, and you investigate me N1, I'll cop you N2.

[Witherweaver]

Ah, okay.  So.. uh.. not very useful as long as there is one scum in your house?  Or can you think of a plan?

[Teproc]

I suggest WW joins the Lannister house and gets voted in, making him effectively unkillable. Right ?

[Teproc]

It seems like the only pro-town use of this power. Without an IC, I wouldn't even want to use it at all.

[Voltaire]

I suggest WW joins the Lannister house and gets voted in, making him effectively unkillable. Right ?

What? How?

[Teproc]

I suggest WW joins the Lannister house and gets voted in, making him effectively unkillable. Right ?

What? How?

Well wouldn't a kill targeting him redirect to the killer ? Or am I misunderstanding ?

[Teproc]

OH, I did misunderstand. I see. That's a weird power.

[Witherweaver]

Um.. I guess it would deter them from killing me, but you have to pick correctly.

[Voltaire]

I suggest WW joins the Lannister house and gets voted in, making him effectively unkillable. Right ?

What? How?

Well wouldn't a kill targeting him redirect to the killer ? Or am I misunderstanding ?

This isn't redirection. It's a new action, limited in choice by what our target has previously performed on us.

So it might cause a 1-for-1 the night they kill him, if same-night actions are allowed. I will have to check on that.

[Teproc]

Yeah... it's actually very interesting. It would be awesome if a house had some sort of investigative power.

[Voltaire]

So who's going to spill the beans on the other Houses?

[Voltaire]

This isn't redirection. It's a new action, limited in choice by what our target has previously performed on us.

And to be clear, we don't get a "choice" - if we target a scum RB, for example, and they've RB'd us in the past and shot us (let's pretend we were successfully doctored), we'd perform the most recent action on the RB - we wouldn't get to chose RB or kill.

[Voltaire]

Also every time I say "we" I mean "the person chosen that night to be the Lannister who gets to use the power"

[Voltaire]

Tep, WW, you're here. Why u no reveal Stark/Targ powers?

[Witherweaver]

Tep revealed Stark.  I'll wait on XP/Robz to chime in on revealing the Targ ability.

[Voltaire]

That doesn't sound difficult at all... The problem is the power can be used against town, so we might not want to empower it.

The Stark power is a bodyguard. It is empowered if the Lannister house has perished. It is not clear what it becomes then, but my guess is Doctor, because that makes sense as a Bodyguard upragde. Doesn't make that much sense for the Starks though.

Hah, totally missed the second paragraph.

[Witherweaver]

I'd almost support dissolving Lannister for Stark.  But maybe there is a more creative way to use Lannister ability.

[Voltaire]

I'd almost support dissolving Lannister for Stark.  But maybe there is a more creative way to use Lannister ability.

I tentatively agree with this sentiment.

[Robz888]

I'd almost support dissolving Lannister for Stark.  But maybe there is a more creative way to use Lannister ability.

Yes, absolutely, I think this should happen.

[pacovf]

Oh wow, that is an interesting power. I have to think about it.

I was hoping that the Lannisters would get an investigative role, it made sense from a balance point of view: town doesn't get a pseudo-unkillable doctor unless there are no investigative roles left.

Wait... can we use the Lannister power as a sort of investigative role? I don't think so, it is so oddly specific... assuming that you correctly target a PR, that PR still had to target you beforehand for you to get any information...

Can you ask if you get to know what (if any) power you used on your target? For example, if you roleblock your target, do you only roleblock him or do you also get a message telling you that you roleblocked him?

[pacovf]

Hum, if Stark bodyguards the Lannister, and the Lannister targets the Stark, and one of them gets killed... what happens?

[Voltaire]

Oh wow, that is an interesting power. I have to think about it.

I was hoping that the Lannisters would get an investigative role, it made sense from a balance point of view: town doesn't get a pseudo-unkillable doctor unless there are no investigative roles left.

What pseudo-unkillable doctor are you talking about?

[pacovf]

House roles are pseudo-unkillable: if you kill one, another one takes its spot.

I am kinda assuming that Stark's empowered power is Doctor, because it makes a lot of sense. Could be something else, but in the end it's still a protective role, so it doesn't really matter.

Hence, pseudo-unkillable protective role + investigative role = profit.

[Witherweaver]

Though,  you know, scum can be in the Houses, too....

[pacovf]

Certainly. But if scum wants the House power, they have to fight to get it, which can expose them to their House partners. Plus, all scum won't be alive forever. Once we are down to one scum, for example, there's not much he can do to avoid such a scenario.

[Teproc]

I like the idea of dissolving House Lannister to empower House Stark, but only after we get the Targaryen and Baratheon powers to know if there's anything we can do with them and the Lannister power.

[Hydrad]

Hmm ok well I think I should just claim? I still haven't been able to get in contact with egork but I think claiming will do more good then harm for town here. Even though I think there's a high hance scum doesn't know what our power is

[Teproc]

Well obviously it's easier for you to say that since you know (or pretend to know) that half of your house is town, but really scum can find out your power by switching to your house anyway, so...

[Hydrad]

Ya ok. Well in that case I'm just going to claim since I want people to join anyways.

Our power is basically a arsonist. We can prime someone each night or light all the people we have primed on fire.

Our empowerment is that we need stannis baratheon to sit on the throne. Both me and egork thought that it was the other person so I'm guessing pps thinking of it being the npc when the house is the biggest is right.

So really for our empowerment all we need is someone like ichi and then a single lannister and we should have our empowerment as long as no one else gets as big.

[Hydrad]

Oh also I'm guessing empowerment might be a vig then? I dunno

[pacovf]

That's a very dangerous power... what do the experts think?

[Voltaire]

The night is dark and full of terrors.

[Hydrad]

Ya it's either another night kill for scum if they control it or a way to hit and kill scum if town controls it.

[Voltaire]

Plan: we abandon Baratheon. Anyone who doesn't leave it, or joins it, is admitting to being scum.

Or we have the most impossible-to-control-but-also-awesome town-ish vig ever. I can go either way.

[Teproc]

What happes if you chose not to use your power ?

Again we do have an IC so it can be useful, especially if it becomes a vig once turned on (the Lannisters can go there if we decide to abandon the Lannister house.

Can someone think of any useful application of this with the Lannister power ?

[Voltaire]

oh also if there is scum in Lannister my current pick would be PPS

[Teproc]

oh also if there is scum in Lannister my current pick would be PPS

Why ?

[Voltaire]

oh also if there is scum in Lannister my current pick would be PPS

Why ?

Barely talked in thread, his one post here was crazy-scummy, mild town read on my other mates

[Voltaire]

hahahahahahahahaha I forgot silver is in my house. Never mind.

[Teproc]

Unless someone is going to claim being Joffrey I believe that the king characters are NPCs flavored respective to the current majority house (say Ned for house Stark). I am currently House Lannister and since we are currently the majority house one of our own is Hand. The Hand acts with the authority of the king.

I'm going to be rather V/LA until about Monday since I am cramming work, then packing and then traveling and then unpacking over this weekend. Then I'll actually be on vacation but should at least be able to follow the thread closely and post in spurts (sounds kind of gross, no?).

That said, I agree that WW is ICish via the mod mistake. Teproc distilled the WW ICishness so town points to him.

I am not at all following the pacovf angle and think ash is off the rails with this one. Typical ash, null here for now.

Voltaire seems opportunistically voting in search of traction.

Null on everyone else.

These are PPS' two posts. I'm assuming you're reffering to the second one. What do you find so scummy about it ?

[Voltaire]

It's my only game-play based scum read so far. it is not big. but:

You do not get town points for pointing out WW = IC (axxle did this as SK in a game for example)

"Opportunistically voting" is him calling me scummy without calling me scummy. Scummy.

With that as the only posts, it's not great.

[Voltaire]

Also!

hahahahahahahahaha I forgot silver is in my house. Never mind.

[Hydrad]

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

[Teproc]

You said it was "crazy-scummy", now you're saying it's not big. Which one is it ?

I definitely thought he was calling yo scummy in this post, but I guess I can see your point.

[Teproc]

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

The only way we're going to use your House power is if we can get an IC to do it. Otherwise it's too risky. That doesn't mean we necessarily have to destroy the house though.

[pacovf]

You do not get town points for pointing out WW = IC (axxle did this as SK in a game for example)

Actually, I agree with PPS that pointing out the ICness of WW gives Teproc town points. I would say that if your counterexample comes from a SK, it's not the best counterexample: there's extra kills going around, and the SK doesn't play the same way scum does.


For the time being, I am somewhat against dissolving Lannister, especially when it would be so easy to empower them to see what your superpower is. We can always dissolve it tomorrow if we don't like what we see.

I also just got the bad feeling that Stark's empowered power might not be a doctor, but some sort of bus driver/redirector. And that is tremendously more dangerous in the hands of scum than a simple bodyguard is.

Don't know what to think about Baratheon. It definitely seems like leaving the House alive would be playing with fire (heh).

[Hydrad]

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

The only way we're going to use your House power is if we can get an IC to do it. Otherwise it's too risky. That doesn't mean we necessarily have to destroy the house though.

Hmm interesting. You guys are much more careful then me I guess. Should we at least try to get our empower ment condition to see what it is?  There's a chance it might not be vig at all and could be useful I guess.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Back for a few. I'm feeling pretty under the weather, so will probably post inconsistently.
Anyway, still haven't gotten any answer as to how one actually changes houses.
Not too sure about the plan to abandon Baratheon entirely. So the mechanic of priming and lighting can be used to kill multiple people then? Although I can see how dangerous that could be if scum controls that house.

Also, my flavor name is Jon Snow. I have no idea who he is, but I figured I'd just claim it anyway.

[Teproc]

Ok. Back for a few. I'm feeling pretty under the weather, so will probably post inconsistently.
Anyway, still haven't gotten any answer as to how one actually changes houses.
Not too sure about the plan to abandon Baratheon entirely. So the mechanic of priming and lighting can be used to kill multiple people then? Although I can see how dangerous that could be if scum controls that house.

Also, my flavor name is Jon Snow. I have no idea who he is, but I figured I'd just claim it anyway.

And you are in House... Targaryen huh ?

That's... interesting.

This game's spoiler limit stops at the second book/season, correct ?

[Teproc]

OH you're houseless right, that makes  alot more sense.

[Teproc]

Why have the Targaryens not claimed yet ? WW ?

[Hydrad]

Why have the Targaryens not claimed yet ? WW ?

Targa eyes are obviously scummy. Let's lynch then all it's obvious they are the scum faction!

[Hydrad]

Why have the Targaryens not claimed yet ? WW ?

Targa eyes are obviously scummy. Let's lynch then all it's obvious they are the scum faction!

Phone spell checking with these house names is really bad by the way

[Witherweaver]

Why have the Targaryens not claimed yet ? WW ?

Well, the thing is, we have three members and one's an IC.  From Robz/XP perspective, they have to consider it a decent chance that there is no scum in this house.  So maybe protecting a power could be good.

[Teproc]

Why have the Targaryens not claimed yet ? WW ?

Well, the thing is, we have three members and one's an IC.  From Robz/XP perspective, they have to consider it a decent chance that there is no scum in this house.  So maybe protecting a power could be good.

What about your perspective ?

I think trying to "protect" powers makes very little sense considering scum can just choose to move into your house. I suppose we could say anyone who does that is obvscum, but that's putting a lot of trust into Robz and XP, which I'm not willing to do.

[Witherweaver]

We've already expressed a desire to not have people join our house (XP to Ichi).  I would consider anyone joining our house to be a scummy move.

From my perspective, XP and Robz are as likely as anyone else to be scum.  However, if I was town in their shoes, I would see their point. 

[pacovf]

From my perspective, XP and Robz are as likely as anyone else to be scum.  However, if I was town in their shoes, I would see their point.

I don't understand why you are defending their perspective instead of yours.

[Witherweaver]

From my perspective, XP and Robz are as likely as anyone else to be scum.  However, if I was town in their shoes, I would see their point.

I don't understand why you are defending their perspective instead of yours.

I don't understand why you're using the word "defending".

Or what that post means at all.

[pacovf]

I'll rephrase. You seem to be saying that you don't want to share your House power, because Robz/XP might not want to share the House power.

I don't think that position makes sense: either you want to share the House power or you don't. I can understand you wanting to wait for them to say what they think about it before doing anything foolhardy, but not really what you are doing right now.

[Witherweaver]

Sharing it will be a collective decision.  I'm explaining, since it was asked, the thought processes going into such a decision. 

[Hydrad]

Hmm I'm wondering the if we get ww to come to baratheon? If we vote him to control the power would that be better?

[Witherweaver]

Hmm I'm wondering the if we get ww to come to baratheon? If we vote him to control the power would that be better?

How long do you expect me to live, though?

[Hydrad]

Hmm I'm wondering the if we get ww to come to baratheon? If we vote him to control the power would that be better?

How long do you expect me to live, though?

Even if it's only one night getting at least one potential vig shot from town is better then nothing right?

[pacovf]

I've got the feeling we won't be able to both empower Lannister and get WW to Baratheon. Not today, not ever. Hmm.

Even not accepting people into House Targaryen, I think choosing not to share your power is betting on the wrong table. But it's your call, not mine.

[Hydrad]

Ok so heres a decent way to go around this I think.

baratheon = 2 people right now

lannister = 4

tar = 3

stark = 3

houseless = 1



So if we get WW to move to baratheon

we have

baratheon = 3 tar = 2

then we have lannister move 2 people into baratheon and baratheon gives one person to lannister

so then we are at

baratheon = 4 lannister = 3

Then we get ichi to join baratheon

baratheon = 5 people and we are now empowered with WW to control it if its a vig

then lannister gives one person to tar and tar gives one person to lannister

lannister = 3 tar = 2

then finally stark gives one person to lannister

lannister = 4 stark = 2

This way lannister should also be empowered at this point

so we would have

baratheon = 5 (with WW)
lannister = 4 (one from each house)
stark = 2
tar = 2


Although this could completely change based on what the tar house power and stuff is. But its a suggestion I guess

[pacovf]

then lannister gives one person to tar

7

It seems like Targaryen will not accept this.

I also dislike leaving only two people in one house. If we lynch one of them, scum can kill the other during the night, and then the house dies.

[ashersky]

Anyone suggesting house roles are super awesome invincible roles are crazy scummy.  Oh hey, look!  It's pacovf!

We have no clue if scum can block, strongman, etc. through house powers.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm okay with sharing our power, just not letting anyone in or sharing our empowerment condition.

[XerxesPraelor]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

[Voltaire]

Anyone suggesting house roles are super awesome invincible roles are crazy scummy.  Oh hey, look!  It's pacovf!

We have no clue if scum can block, strongman, etc. through house powers.

Nope, read the setup. We actually know this. They're normally blockable, like all roles, unless that house has the Hand of the King, in which case they're strongman.

[Voltaire]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

There will be a role related to the setup. For all we know scum has access to your QT even if they're not in your QT right now.

[Voltaire]

The problem I'm having, ash, is that I'm getting a super-strong town read on pacovf because of you, which is incorrect and misleading, just because of how strongly you're tunneling him with virtually nothing/proven factually incorrect information.

Though pacovf did react quite directly to your accusations, for which I give town points, as he did not seem to shy away from the conflict at all. When I was new scum, and yuma came after me, I wanted to crawl into a hole and die, not keep posting.

So maybe a townie read on pacovf after all.

[pacovf]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

FYI, chances are 27% if 3-scum-team, and 36% if 4-scum-team from your point of view, assuming both you and WW are town, that there is at least one scum in Targaryen. They are reasonable, but I wouldn't say they are good enough to be worth the risk of you thinking that scum doesn't know about your power while they actually do, and keeping town in the darkness.

And of course, from the outside, the odds of scum being in Targaryen, assuming WW is town, are 50% if 3-scum-team, and 60% if 4-scum-team, which are anything but good.

It depends on what your power does. If scum stands to gain much more than town from knowing the power, then it might be better to keep it secret, I don't know. But the odds certainly don't favour that.


I know you have mentioned that you don't want people to join House Targaryen. If one of you leaves the house, would it be ok for him to join House Targaryen later?

[pacovf]

Still waiting for Robz opinion on the subject BTW.

[Teproc]

If the Targaryens chose not to share their power, everyone joining their house is obvscum.

But really they should at least share their power.

[ashersky]

The problem I'm having, ash, is that I'm getting a super-strong town read on pacovf because of you, which is incorrect and misleading, just because of how strongly you're tunneling him with virtually nothing/proven factually incorrect information.

Though pacovf did react quite directly to your accusations, for which I give town points, as he did not seem to shy away from the conflict at all. When I was new scum, and yuma came after me, I wanted to crawl into a hole and die, not keep posting.

So maybe a townie read on pacovf after all.

I want to be lynched if we aren't lynching pacovf, even though it is incredibly anti-town to lynch town just to make a point.

[pacovf]

The problem I'm having, ash, is that I'm getting a super-strong town read on pacovf because of you, which is incorrect and misleading, just because of how strongly you're tunneling him with virtually nothing/proven factually incorrect information.

Though pacovf did react quite directly to your accusations, for which I give town points, as he did not seem to shy away from the conflict at all. When I was new scum, and yuma came after me, I wanted to crawl into a hole and die, not keep posting.

So maybe a townie read on pacovf after all.

I want to be lynched if we aren't lynching pacovf, even though it is incredibly anti-town to lynch town just to make a point.

Ash, people aren't ignoring your case because they think you are scum (heck, some of them are giving you town points for some reason), they are ignoring your case because it is a weak/nonsensical one. Your getting lynched is not going to change that, and if you are town we will be down one lynch. I suggest that you start trying to contribute in a way that is beneficial for town.

By the way, considering how early D1 we are, and that most people haven't posted any content other than setup-analysis, I am also surprised that you think you've got reads on enough people to conclude that I am the only worthy lynch today. If you really don't want to discuss the setup, which is fine, you should be forcing other people than me to talk. I'm putting myself out there, people can draw conclusions (one way or another) from the way I act.

My two cents on the situation.

[ashersky]

The problem I'm having, ash, is that I'm getting a super-strong town read on pacovf because of you, which is incorrect and misleading, just because of how strongly you're tunneling him with virtually nothing/proven factually incorrect information.

Though pacovf did react quite directly to your accusations, for which I give town points, as he did not seem to shy away from the conflict at all. When I was new scum, and yuma came after me, I wanted to crawl into a hole and die, not keep posting.

So maybe a townie read on pacovf after all.

I want to be lynched if we aren't lynching pacovf, even though it is incredibly anti-town to lynch town just to make a point.

Ash, people aren't ignoring your case because they think you are scum (heck, some of them are giving you town points for some reason), they are ignoring your case because it is a weak/nonsensical one. Your getting lynched is not going to change that, and if you are town we will be down one lynch. I suggest that you start trying to contribute in a way that is beneficial for town.

By the way, considering how early D1 we are, and that most people haven't posted any content other than setup-analysis, I am also surprised that you think you've got reads on enough people to conclude that I am the only worthy lynch today. If you really don't want to discuss the setup, which is fine, you should be forcing other people than me to talk. I'm putting myself out there, people can draw conclusions (one way or another) from the way I act.

My two cents on the situation.

There are clearly other scum out there.  I don't know who they are, though.  So I'm focused on the one I believe I caught.  If I catch more later, I'll move on to them.

[XerxesPraelor]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

There will be a role related to the setup. For all we know scum has access to your QT even if they're not in your QT right now.

Hmm. That's. in.... intriguing. Do you think it could be Ichi's role, though?

[EgorK]

Finally caught up. I confirm what Hydrad said about our power

[Robz888]

Still waiting for Robz opinion on the subject BTW.

What subject?

[pacovf]

Still waiting for Robz opinion on the subject BTW.

What subject?

Whether Targaryens should share their power or not.

[Witherweaver]

But Pacovf, you've only talked about setup things and how "crazy" Ash's case is.  Except I didn't really see you address what he said much (Teproc did more), only dismiss it.  There isn't really much (if anything) I've seen you say in terms of actual Mafia, despite posting a lot.

[pacovf]

First of all, while you do make a good point about my lack of scumhunting, I think it's unfair to say that I've "only" talked about setup things. Everybody has done the same. I would give town points to Ashersky for scumhunting, only his case is so bad that I can't.

As to why I've only talked about the setup, there is a simple reason. I think we've got two objectives today: lynch mafia, and determine the best way for town to navigate the setup. We can't do both at the same time, it's too easy for mafia to keep switching from one to the other to avoid sensitive issues. And if we start by trying to lynch someone, I bet nobody will say "hold on a sec before you lynch that guy, we have to discuss the setup first", because it will be seen as crazy scummy. So, first we discuss the setup, then we look for mafia. That's not an excuse not to punish scummy behaviour as it happens, but it isn't an excuse to say that people who "only" speak about the setup are scummy.

I am doing my best to finish the setup discussion as quickly as possible so that we can move on the mafia-finding phase. If you agree with my analysis of the situation, help me with the setup discussion. If you don't, say why.


About the case by Ashersky, I did adress his initial case here. If you think I missed something relevant, I will address it now.

However, I think you can excuse me for not giving much credibility to someone that starts his argument this way:

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

And when we point out that House Lannister was specifically mentioned in our empower condition in the first post of our quicktopic, he answers this.

Teproc, you mean the killing all Lannisters thing?

Irrelevant, in my opinion.

He still hasn't admitted that this argument doesn't make sense, the best he has done is say that "If you don't like it, ignore it".

[Witherweaver]

I missed that reply of yours to Ash's initial points.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

There will be a role related to the setup. For all we know scum has access to your QT even if they're not in your QT right now.

Hmm. That's. in.... intriguing. Do you think it could be Ichi's role, though?

How do you mean?

[pacovf]

@Robz: you were originally very much in favour of sharing your house power. What is your opinion now?

@Azadin: you mentioned that you were going to do a more thorough reread. How is it coming along?

@EgorK: do you have any opinion on what has been said until now?

[EgorK]

@Robz: you were originally very much in favour of sharing your house power. What is your opinion now?

@Azadin: you mentioned that you were going to do a more thorough reread. How is it coming along?

@EgorK: do you have any opinion on what has been said until now?

Ash is ash. Otherwise a lot of setup discussion. WW mishup makes him towny, but not IC in my opinion. And I do not have any reads from QT

[silverspawn]

sorry everyone, I was somewhere where I didn't have internet, but I expected to have it, so I didn't say anything before I left (plus the game hadn't started yet.) But I'm back now, so I'll do a big reread and then probably become very active as usual.

[azadin]

@Robz: you were originally very much in favour of sharing your house power. What is your opinion now?

@Azadin: you mentioned that you were going to do a more thorough reread. How is it coming along?

@EgorK: do you have any opinion on what has been said until now?

Alright, back from being away from internet. Starting my reread now.

[azadin]

House roles are pseudo-unkillable: if you kill one, another one takes its spot.

I am kinda assuming that Stark's empowered power is Doctor, because it makes a lot of sense. Could be something else, but in the end it's still a protective role, so it doesn't really matter.

Hence, pseudo-unkillable protective role + investigative role = profit.

I'm still going through the posts, but I need to post this thought before I lose it:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Lannister's empowered power is full Cop, and the Stark's is full doctor. Not that this makes sense from a flavour view, but think about it. Stark's first power is bodyguard. Doctor is an obvious "upgrade" to this. Our (Lannister) role is like a dumbed-down investigative type thing where we choose another player and learn something about them (though now that I think about it, it's not purely investigative because we also perform the action back). Still, my original thought was that instead of blindly being able to reflect actions, an empowered condition would also reveal some information about the targeted player.

Now, for BALANCE purposes, having pseudo-unkillable doctor AND super-cop would be absolutely insane. It's my thought that the reason the Stark's bodyguard -> doctor upgrade is contingent on Lannister being dissolved is so that combination can never actually happen.

This assumes our empowered power is a cop/investigative type thing, which I'm not positive about, but does make some sense.

[azadin]

The night is dark and full of terrors.

Haha, this cracked me up for some reason.

[azadin]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

FYI, chances are 27% if 3-scum-team, and 36% if 4-scum-team from your point of view, assuming both you and WW are town, that there is at least one scum in Targaryen. They are reasonable, but I wouldn't say they are good enough to be worth the risk of you thinking that scum doesn't know about your power while they actually do, and keeping town in the darkness.

And of course, from the outside, the odds of scum being in Targaryen, assuming WW is town, are 50% if 3-scum-team, and 60% if 4-scum-team, which are anything but good.

What?

[silverspawn]

okay. so. lot's of things going on here.

the setup overall seems both fascinating and complex. i think (correct me if i'm wrong), if the setup is complex, it means a) scum slips (actual scum slips...) are more likely, and b) having all information is more valuable. for that reason I totally support claiming pretty much everything except conventional Player roles.

As you've already figured out, I'm Lannister. Also, I'm Oberyn Martell, and my flavor said pretty much what's show canon. This might be relevant because it proves that the setup also includes post season 2 stuff (I think the contrary has been claimed before).

The WW slip is kind of... unfortunate. Or well, it's fortunate for our chances, but it bothers me because it's an unfair advantage. I know for sure that it would bother me A LOT if i was scum. but well, mistakes happen. We should still use it. And there is an obvious opportunity for that:

Hmm I'm wondering the if we get ww to come to baratheon? If we vote him to control the power would that be better?

is there any reason why we should not do this? it seems like the perfect plan. we have an IC, we have a crazy powerful role. so... make the IC the crazy powerful role? I guess he might be NK'd, but since we don't now whether or not there are doctors out there (or do we know? we don't, right?), NK an IC seems bloody dangerous. so, please explain to me why we should not do this if you think we shouldn't.

random question: can mafia talk during the day aswell? I always thought they could, but according to a sample pm from another setup, they can't. but I also recall talking about "directed" play, which is only possible if they can.

before i say more, I'll reread the ash-pac thing, and some other things

[Voltaire]

random question: can mafia talk during the day aswell? I always thought they could, but according to a sample pm from another setup, they can't. but I also recall talking about "directed" play, which is only possible if they can.

Normally they can not. Some setups do allow daychat.

[Teproc]

This Targaryen thing is annoying. I want the game to move on to actual scumhunting, but I'd rather we get all the claiming and planning done before that, and you guys are just obstructing.

[silverspawn]

I'm not sure I understand the pacovf case correctly, but let me try to break it down. this was ash's post

pacovf made a series of posts in the QT that made it clear from the start that he was new scum.  He had some assumptions that only scum would make right off the bat.  He continued those into the thread.

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

He then moves on to scum will try to get in all the houses as quickly as possible and scum will know everything we do and say in all houses.  I think that's what led to the mod's note here in the game thread about new QTs all the time.  But again, this is scum planning, not scum hunting.  This is thinking like scum, not thinking like town.

He then makes a joke that I am chatting in my scum QT.  That's a lot of self-awareness projected onto another player who was sleeping (I'm assuming he doesn't know my time zone difference is quite big).

As soon as I return, I say that I have thoughts but don't want to share them.  All of a sudden, super talkative pacovf just goes silent.  Like, completely.  Ever see crabs running around on the rocks at the beach?  As soon as they notice you, they disappear and don't come out.

That's the stuff from the QT.  I have to run, but it's a good start.  You can read his posts here and see the same trend.

let me rephrase that into points

• pacofv said they should not actively empower their house because House Lannister also has a power
  
  • he knows Lannister exists
  • he knows the special power of Lannister
• he said, lannister will try to get in all houses
  
  • he knows the empowerment condition of Lannisters
• he made a self-aware joke
• he suddenly goes afk after ash said that he had thoughts he didn't want to share
• there's a similar pattern in his posts

Teproc then said, he knew about the killing all Lannisters thing, so the case isn't really a case anymore. But I don't really get it, if they know the empowerment condition for their house, why does that excuse knowing about the special Power of Lannister? why does it excuse knowing about the lannister empowerment condition? I only see how it excuses point 1.1, which was a stupid point to begin with. ash said, it's irrelevant. well, that's how it seems to me too.

Then there's that

By the way, since it's out there, our empowerement condition is not exactly to kill all Lannisters, it is for House Lannister to have perished, which would just mean that no one is in it anymore. This means we would have to abandon the Lannister power if we wanted to get the Stark enpowered powerd, hence pacovf's comments taht ash finds scummy for some reason.

how exactly does this excuse any of the points?

I'm not trying to push a case here, I think it's rather that there's something I don't understand. someone want to elaborate?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure it's a valid jump to say that Pacovf knew the empowerment condition of Lannister's.  Why do you think that's the case?

[Teproc]

Ok, here is pacovf's relevant post from the QT (ash and him can confirm) :

I am against actively trying to empower our House power. Lannister House has another power, and empowering ours implies losing that other power, and we don't know which is better (empowered Stark, or non-empowered Stark + Lannister).

As you can see, this says nothing about the Lannister power itself. As for Lannister "trying to get into all houses" he said that about scum, not about Lannisters.

[pacovf]

Can we actually quote the QT!? This would have gone WAY faster if I could just post the discussion.

[Teproc]

It's impossible to prove that it's an actual quote, so yes, you can. Or at least I don't see anything in the rules against it, can't remember how previous games with similar mechanics worked in that regard but I think you could quote.

[silverspawn]

I am against actively trying to empower our House power. Lannister House has another power, and empowering ours implies losing that other power, and we don't know which is better (empowered Stark, or non-empowered Stark + Lannister).

I misunderstood what he meant by "empower" (but it should have been clear, so my bad).

Can we actually quote the QT!? This would have gone WAY faster if I could just post the discussion.

I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to. If we are, it's probably best if ash does that and then makes a new, structured case using quotes from the QT.

unless any of you minds if they are made public

[silverspawn]

mind*

[silverspawn]

If we are, it's probably best if ash does that and then makes a new, structured case using quotes from the QT.

#1.2 from my list doesn't really follow either, based on the post you quoted. but me trying to structure this, using interpretations of paraphrasing from ash seems like a bad idea, so I'll stop now. it's much better if he does it himself, if he is still serious about this case

[Witherweaver]

In the past, quoting any QT messages was explicitly disallowed.  Recall Monster's University.

[Teproc]

In the past, quoting any QT messages was explicitly disallowed.  Recall Monster's University.

It was ? Hmmm. I forgot about that entirely.

faust, what's the ruling here ?

[Witherweaver]

I do think that's a weird thing for Pacovf to say, though.

How would you actively try to empower your House?  As Town, the only way is to make people leave House Lannister.  I can't see much of a way this could be done other than simply to convince them to change houses.  This would invariably lead to a discussion on what houses had what powers, and a collective determination of which ones we want more. 

[pacovf]

Well, it was a post based on the information we had back then. Just because I didn't know Lannister's power didn't mean I couldn't start devising strategies based on likely scenarios. Plus, I didn't know what kind of game this was going to be D1, and judging from our empower condition, it seemed like maybe there were going to be mechanics that encouraged adversarial behaviour between houses, I was taking a stance against that.

I don't know, how isn't stating my opinion on whether we should dissolve Lannister not contributing to a "collective determination", anyway?

[Witherweaver]

But you said "actively empower our house". 

I guess the issue is that the only action available is killing.

[azadin]

But you said "actively empower our house". 

I guess the issue is that the only action available is killing.

"Actively empower" could also mean actively attempting to persuade Lannister to leave their house. It doesn't mean the only available action is killing.

[pacovf]

You don't have to resort to killing to empty House Lannister. Headstrong posts about how people should come to House Stark (we have cookies) work just fine, just as your posts to the effect that people joining House Targaryen are obvscum are achieving the opposite.

I am simplifying, but I think you are reading too much into it.

PPE: what azadin said, but I think WW knew it already anyway.

[Witherweaver]

But my point is, actively trying to get people to leave Lannister would invariably result in the house powers and empowerment conditions being shared. 

It would have made more sense to say "we should consider claiming house powers to see what theirs is so we can decide if it makes more sense to empower ours or have both".

[pacovf]

It's the second post with content on the QT, and the first one is also mine. It's not unreasonable to say that I didn't have all the consequences worked out by then.

The next post by Teproc points that out, actually.

[pacovf]

Please feel free to keep attacking me if/as you find arguments that make me scummy, but I think it's relevant to point out that Teproc is speaking da sense:

This Targaryen thing is annoying. I want the game to move on to actual scumhunting, but I'd rather we get all the claiming and planning done before that, and you guys are just obstructing.

[Robz888]

@Robz: you were originally very much in favour of sharing your house power. What is your opinion now?

@Azadin: you mentioned that you were going to do a more thorough reread. How is it coming along?

@EgorK: do you have any opinion on what has been said until now?

I'm undecided, but leaning against it, because given WW is IC, my house is much more likely to currently be an all town house.

[pacovf]

Much more likely doesn't mean likely enough, though.

[Witherweaver]

I also don't see a huge benefit in announcing our power.  I don't think it will aid any plans.

[pacovf]

Well, I think you are doing this backwards. You should choose not to share it only if doing so would actually harm town. Saying that it wouldn't have a "huge benefit" is not enough. Because the problem at heart is that scum might already know it!

For the record, I think all Houses did well when sharing their power, especially Baratheon. The risk that scum learnt of a useful weapon far outweights the danger of scum gaining control of that power without anyone knowing it.

Speaking of which, with all the crossposting that happened in the previous page, I forgot to answer this:

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

FYI, chances are 27% if 3-scum-team, and 36% if 4-scum-team from your point of view, assuming both you and WW are town, that there is at least one scum in Targaryen. They are reasonable, but I wouldn't say they are good enough to be worth the risk of you thinking that scum doesn't know about your power while they actually do, and keeping town in the darkness.

And of course, from the outside, the odds of scum being in Targaryen, assuming WW is town, are 50% if 3-scum-team, and 60% if 4-scum-team, which are anything but good.

What?

The numbers can be found with some elementary maths. But if there is anything I can explain, I will gladly do so.

[pacovf]

Ugh, the comment about risks and outweighting is obviously the other way around.

[Teproc]

Ok fine, let's proceed as if Targaryen didn't have a power and agree that no one should join them.

I assume you guys are not in favor of dissolving your house, Targs ?

I think we should try to empower either Lannister or Stark. Baratheon I'm less excited about empowering, since that power is probably best left unused.

I'm actually thinking that empowering Lannister is better right now because we get a chance to change our minds afterwards : if the Lannister empowerment is actually lame, we can them empower Stark. It doesn't work the other way around.

[Witherweaver]

I guess that's a good point.

I'm somewhat interested in seeing what Empowered Baratheon is, though.  I don't like their current ability too much.

[azadin]

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

FYI, chances are 27% if 3-scum-team, and 36% if 4-scum-team from your point of view, assuming both you and WW are town, that there is at least one scum in Targaryen. They are reasonable, but I wouldn't say they are good enough to be worth the risk of you thinking that scum doesn't know about your power while they actually do, and keeping town in the darkness.

And of course, from the outside, the odds of scum being in Targaryen, assuming WW is town, are 50% if 3-scum-team, and 60% if 4-scum-team, which are anything but good.

What?

The numbers can be found with some elementary maths. But if there is anything I can explain, I will gladly do so.
[/quote]

My gut instinct told me those numbers were off, but I just did the math and you are correct. You rounded a bit which is what threw me (it's definitely not exactly 50%, closer to 47%, but close enough).

PPE: 2

[pacovf]

Same here, I would rather empower Lannister today, and we can talk tomorrow about the empowered Lannister power, and whether it is worth it.

Another thing is that even if we empower Lannister, we can still choose to give the Hand of the King to another house (Stark, chiefly).

Finally, I would be against leaving only 2 people on Baratheon, for accountability reasons; I'd feel safer with 3 people there. And unless we get WW there (and even then, not sure), I think the best way to proceed would be not to vote for who gets the power. It's the only way to be sure that it doesn't get used.

@Azadin: yep, sorry, should have specified the rounding.

[Teproc]

Ok, so if we empower Lannister here's what we do :

- a non-WW Targaryen joins Lannister
- a Stark joins Lannister
- a Baratheon joins Lannister
- we don't want only one person in Baratheon, so Ichi can join Baratheon for example, plus maybe an original Lannister
- no one, under any circumstances, joins House Targaryen

Anyone have a problem with this ?

[Teproc]

If we also want to empower Baratheon, we could make all the original Lannisters + WW join Baratheon, but it's hard to know how if it'd be ok to only eave one unknown in Targ, so I guess we just won't do it ?

[pacovf]

If we really wanted to empower both Lannister and Baratheon, I would be against leaving only one person in Targ (especially after all the discussion regarding that House), so Baratheon wouldn't have WW. I think it's fine, with 4 people in Baratheon, we can trust nothing weird will happen: if the power is still some sort of vig, they just no-vote. Hard to pull something else with 4 people in there, right?

[pacovf]

We also have to take into account that someone is getting lynched today. Empowering both Lannister and Baratheon might simply not be possible/wise, depending on who that is.

[XerxesPraelor]

Ok, so if we empower Lannister here's what we do :

- a non-WW Targaryen joins Lannister
- a Stark joins Lannister
- a Baratheon joins Lannister
- we don't want only one person in Baratheon, so Ichi can join Baratheon for example, plus maybe an original Lannister
- no one, under any circumstances, joins House Targaryen

Anyone have a problem with this ?

I thought lannister needed stark to be gone?

[Teproc]

Ok, so if we empower Lannister here's what we do :

- a non-WW Targaryen joins Lannister
- a Stark joins Lannister
- a Baratheon joins Lannister
- we don't want only one person in Baratheon, so Ichi can join Baratheon for example, plus maybe an original Lannister
- no one, under any circumstances, joins House Targaryen

Anyone have a problem with this ?

I thought lannister needed stark to be gone?

No, Stark needs Lannister gone, Lannister needs one person of each house.

[XerxesPraelor]

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

[pacovf]

For today, yes. Empowering Stark is a one-way decision, because once House Lannister has perished, it won't come back to life. On the other hand, we can always make people leave House Lannister later on.

[ashersky]

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

I've only read book 1 and watched seasons 1 and 2, but this seems akin to choosing Voldemort over Potter.

[Teproc]

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

I've only read book 1 and watched seasons 1 and 2, but this seems akin to choosing Voldemort over Potter.

You haven't read closely enough then, in that the series doesn't really have a good faction and a bad faction. There are good guys and bad guys for sure, but most people (including most Lannisters and Starks) are just in some sort of a grey area.

Regardless, I don't know that we've decided on anything yet, this is just what I'm suggesting.

[silverspawn]

I think the starks are pretty white. joffrey is black. tyrion is white. cerci...however you spell her is black. the other lannisters are gray.

[silverspawn]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

[ashersky]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

I would if I felt anyone would listen.  But they won't.

[Teproc]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

I would if I felt anyone would listen.  But they won't.

Do you have any thoughts on what I suggested above (empowering Lannister) ?

[ashersky]

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

I've only read book 1 and watched seasons 1 and 2, but this seems akin to choosing Voldemort over Potter.

You haven't read closely enough then, in that the series doesn't really have a good faction and a bad faction. There are good guys and bad guys for sure, but most people (including most Lannisters and Starks) are just in some sort of a grey area.

Regardless, I don't know that we've decided on anything yet, this is just what I'm suggesting.

Just because it isn't dumbed down for four-year olds like HP doesn't mean there aren't clearly good/evil biases built into the characters.  Willful incest was a choice, not a requirement, for example.  Stoicly heroic Jon clearly identifies with Stark.  Every surprise death for effect (of which there are many) are there to shock the reader, and killing bad guys is never a shock.

I've not read past book one given all that, so things could have changed, of course.  I'm probably tainted by the show, which clearly wanted some heroes (Jon, Robb, the boy-girl).

But really, other than Tyrion (who is Snape), the Lannisters are supposed to be despicable.

[ashersky]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

I would if I felt anyone would listen.  But they won't.

Do you have any thoughts on what I suggested above (empowering Lannister) ?

I've been giving them.

To spell it out, though: t-e-r-r-i-b-l-e.

[Teproc]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

I would if I felt anyone would listen.  But they won't.

Do you have any thoughts on what I suggested above (empowering Lannister) ?

I've been giving them.

You really haven't.

[silverspawn]

actually, both tywin and jaimie (i have no idea how to spelll them, so apologies) are given a lot more depth and sympathetic moments in season 3. which is amazing. GoT is so good *sigh*

[ashersky]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

I would if I felt anyone would listen.  But they won't.

Do you have any thoughts on what I suggested above (empowering Lannister) ?

I've been giving them.

You really haven't.

We are literally having the conversation right now.  You and I.  The two of us.  How can you say this?

[ashersky]

actually, both tywin and jaimie (i have no idea how to spelll them, so apologies) are given a lot more depth and sympathetic moments in season 3. which is amazing. GoT is so good *sigh*

I was sad Jason Momoa didn't last.

[Teproc]

ash, are you going to make a more detailed case against pace? if not, why not?

I would if I felt anyone would listen.  But they won't.

Do you have any thoughts on what I suggested above (empowering Lannister) ?

I've been giving them.

You really haven't.

We are literally having the conversation right now.  You and I.  The two of us.  How can you say this?

You've only said my plan was terrible... that's not enough. Explain why, and what we can do better.

[ashersky]

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

I've only read book 1 and watched seasons 1 and 2, but this seems akin to choosing Voldemort over Potter.

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

I've only read book 1 and watched seasons 1 and 2, but this seems akin to choosing Voldemort over Potter.

You haven't read closely enough then, in that the series doesn't really have a good faction and a bad faction. There are good guys and bad guys for sure, but most people (including most Lannisters and Starks) are just in some sort of a grey area.

Regardless, I don't know that we've decided on anything yet, this is just what I'm suggesting.

Just because it isn't dumbed down for four-year olds like HP doesn't mean there aren't clearly good/evil biases built into the characters.  Willful incest was a choice, not a requirement, for example.  Stoicly heroic Jon clearly identifies with Stark.  Every surprise death for effect (of which there are many) are there to shock the reader, and killing bad guys is never a shock.

I've not read past book one given all that, so things could have changed, of course.  I'm probably tainted by the show, which clearly wanted some heroes (Jon, Robb, the boy-girl).

But really, other than Tyrion (who is Snape), the Lannisters are supposed to be despicable.

[Teproc]

Are you serious right now ? I don't want to speak in riddles ash. You want to empower Stark is what you're saying ? Why ? What do you have to say to the argument that if we empower Stark we can't go back, which is not the case with Lannister ?

[ashersky]

Are you serious right now ? I don't want to speak in riddles ash. You want to empower Stark is what you're saying ? Why ? What do you have to say to the argument that if we empower Stark we can't go back, which is not the case with Lannister ?

You are correct that if Stark is empowered, the Lannister power is gone forever.
I don't really care if we empower Stark's power.  Seems unnecessary to me.

[Teproc]

So what, you think we shouldn't do anything with the house powers ? Nothing ?

Who are you and what have you done with ash ?

[ashersky]

You know what I really think?

All players go houseless and we play the game.  That's a viable option, you know.  It seems like one house feels they are anti-town already.

What's to say a house isn't a faction?  Lannisters could be mafia with a QT anyone can join.

So many things we (and Faust) could dream up.

So by all means, keep up this discussion.  All it serves to do is erode my strong town read on you.

[Witherweaver]

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

I've only read book 1 and watched seasons 1 and 2, but this seems akin to choosing Voldemort over Potter.

You haven't read closely enough then, in that the series doesn't really have a good faction and a bad faction. There are good guys and bad guys for sure, but most people (including most Lannisters and Starks) are just in some sort of a grey area.

Regardless, I don't know that we've decided on anything yet, this is just what I'm suggesting.

Just because it isn't dumbed down for four-year olds like HP doesn't mean there aren't clearly good/evil biases built into the characters.  Willful incest was a choice, not a requirement, for example.  Stoicly heroic Jon clearly identifies with Stark.  Every surprise death for effect (of which there are many) are there to shock the reader, and killing bad guys is never a shock.

I've not read past book one given all that, so things could have changed, of course.  I'm probably tainted by the show, which clearly wanted some heroes (Jon, Robb, the boy-girl).

But really, other than Tyrion (who is Snape), the Lannisters are supposed to be despicable.

Nah, Jaime is a clear anti-hero.  Or redeemed hero. 

[Teproc]

Ok, seriously now, why has yuma stolen ash's account ?

When do you ever say "we play the game" as if not exploiting the setup was the best way of playing the game ?

And do you realize how insanely stupid your suggestion that mafia have an open QT is ? First of all, house QTs reset whenever someone gets into them, second of all, what ?  This is not a bastard game you know.

I have no idea how to react to this. You can be anti-town sometimes, but not like this. Do you have anything to contribute to this game aside from "pacovf is obvscum and the setup doesn't matter" ?

[ashersky]

All this WW is an IC talk is scummy.  Here's what happened:

Player 1: my flavor name is Eevee!
Player 2: hey, hold up, MY flavor name is Eevee!  Vote: Player 1!
Mod: sorry guts mod error on the flavor names, which, by the way, as pointed out before the game, has no relation to alignment.
Everyone:  yay!  Player 2 is an accidental IC!

Tell me that makes any sense. 

[Teproc]

Ok, civility pledge and all that, I'm logging off, sorry.

[ashersky]

Ok, seriously now, why has yuma stolen ash's account ?

When do you ever say "we play the game" as if not exploiting the setup was the best way of playing the game ?

And do you realize how insanely stupid your suggestion that mafia have an open QT is ? First of all, house QTs reset whenever someone gets into them, second of all, what ?  This is not a bastard game you know.

I have no idea how to react to this. You can be anti-town sometimes, but not like this. Do you have anything to contribute to this game aside from "pacovf is obvscum and the setup doesn't matter" ?

I'm pretty sure dissolving all four houses on N1 is exploiting the setup.

Also, mafia would have a factional QT and a house QT.  It's day chat plus manipulative.  You know, like "hey we need someone from every house to join us!"  Maybe once you join, you can't leave?

[Witherweaver]

All this WW is an IC talk is scummy.  Here's what happened:

Player 1: my flavor name is Eevee!
Player 2: hey, hold up, MY flavor name is Eevee!  Vote: Player 1!
Mod: sorry guts mod error on the flavor names, which, by the way, as pointed out before the game, has no relation to alignment.
Everyone:  yay!  Player 2 is an accidental IC!

Tell me that makes any sense.

The argument is that I would have reacted differently if I had been scum.  First, if both Teproc and I were scum, we probably would have noted our conflicted flavor names in our scum QT.  If I'm scum and Teproc is town, then I know Teproc is telling the truth, so my first reaction would be that mod made a mistake, or that my flavor name is not safe to claim, or something.  Anyway I'm probably going to the mod directly in that situation instead of calling out Teproc.

[silverspawn]

Do you want to make us houseless because you think it's the best thing to do for town, or for another reason?

[Witherweaver]

Leaving Houses is something we could do.  But, not such a great plan.  I mean.. scum can just not leave the House and be the only one left that can use the power.

[Witherweaver]

You know what I really think?

All players go houseless and we play the game.  That's a viable option, you know.  It seems like one house feels they are anti-town already.

What's to say a house isn't a faction?  Lannisters could be mafia with a QT anyone can join.

So many things we (and Faust) could dream up.

So by all means, keep up this discussion.  All it serves to do is erode my strong town read on you.

Flavor names <=> Initial House Members, and therefore the initial house composition cannot imply a faction.

Lannisters aren't scum here.

[silverspawn]

unrelated, I am getting a strong town read on Teproc because of this discussion. It went clearly beyond the game, and I think it's much more likely for a town to be willing to do that.

[Witherweaver]

I think this is town Teproc.

[pacovf]

I simply can't understand what Ash is doing here. It's super anti-town. He's also misunderstanding the setup once more.

Teproc, I suggest you heed your own advice and ignore Ash for the time being.

And the discussion about morality in aSoIaF is interesting and all, but we've got a thread for that, and here it's derailing the discussion.

[ashersky]

I think this is town Teproc.

As do I, which I've said since the very beginning.

So if I'm supposed to accept that Witherweaver is an Innocent Child, that makes both parties of the modslip strongly town, which seems pretty unlikely.

[silverspawn]

Do you want to make us houseless because you think it's the best thing to do for town, or for another reason?

[pingpongsam]

Ash and I have a lot in common with regards to our approach to the game. This level of anti town is not scum ash anymore than it would be scum PPS. Leveraging it against him will be  a scum tell for the rest of the game. Unpacked and catching up.

[ashersky]

I simply can't understand what Ash is doing here. It's super anti-town. He's also misunderstanding the setup once more.

Teproc, I suggest you heed your own advice and ignore Ash for the time being.

And the discussion about morality in aSoIaF is interesting and all, but we've got a thread for that, and here it's derailing the discussion.

And he starts to deflect again.

Why is it not relevant to the discussion?  Go and read past flavored games.  In LOTR1, for example, orcs and dragons were scum.  In the books, also evil.  In Dr. Who mafia, the bad guys were the evil dudes from the show.  It goes on and on.  In samurai and ninjas, same deal.  In Buffy, I had to use the amnesia trope to NOT have the big bads be the regular big bads.

So, as it has been stated by more than one person not named ashersky (hence, you should have read it) that the flavor is pretty dang spot on in this game, I have to imagine that faust has chosen the "bad guys" from the books to be the bad guys here.

People are right that there is a lot more gray areas in GoT, but this is a game of mafia, so he needs to do something with it.

It's absolutely possible (and awesome) to design a game with four neighborhoods, but one neighborhood is a front for the mafia.  They would still have their secret hideout (factional QT), but as we have seen, many a laundromat or restaurant has been a mafia front in the past.  So just reflavor it here.  Maybe House Stark is the front, I don't know the books well enough.  But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

So, I do think it is relevant to figure out who is most likely to be the bad guys flavor-wise so we can use that information to inform our decisions during the day, during claims, during the night, etc.

[Witherweaver]

...

All this WW is an IC talk is scummy.  Here's what happened:

Player 1: my flavor name is Eevee!
Player 2: hey, hold up, MY flavor name is Eevee!  Vote: Player 1!
Mod: sorry guts mod error on the flavor names, which, by the way, as pointed out before the game, has no relation to alignment.
Everyone:  yay!  Player 2 is an accidental IC!

Tell me that makes any sense.

[Witherweaver]

Setup information

There are 13 players, some of which are mafia and rest town (Realm-aligned in this game). At the start of the game, each player is assigned to a House or House-free. Houses do not indicate alignment. Similarly, flavor names are independent of alignment.

[ashersky]

Do you want to make us houseless because you think it's the best thing to do for town, or for another reason?

Sorry, didn't get to this yet.

This is a fantastic and astute question, silverspawn.  Kudos.

This could absolutely be a thing that benefits a particular player (or players).  In this case, not me.  But you are right we should think about that.

If there are roles that relate to houses/house powers, it's possible there are powers that relate to being unhoused.

[ashersky]

Setup information

There are 13 players, some of which are mafia and rest town (Realm-aligned in this game). At the start of the game, each player is assigned to a House or House-free. Houses do not indicate alignment. Similarly, flavor names are independent of alignment.

Um, thanks?  That's exactly what I said.  Flavor names have no relation to alignment.

I am missing your point.

[Witherweaver]

Because this?

I simply can't understand what Ash is doing here. It's super anti-town. He's also misunderstanding the setup once more.

Teproc, I suggest you heed your own advice and ignore Ash for the time being.

And the discussion about morality in aSoIaF is interesting and all, but we've got a thread for that, and here it's derailing the discussion.

And he starts to deflect again.

Why is it not relevant to the discussion?  Go and read past flavored games.  In LOTR1, for example, orcs and dragons were scum.  In the books, also evil.  In Dr. Who mafia, the bad guys were the evil dudes from the show.  It goes on and on.  In samurai and ninjas, same deal.  In Buffy, I had to use the amnesia trope to NOT have the big bads be the regular big bads.

So, as it has been stated by more than one person not named ashersky (hence, you should have read it) that the flavor is pretty dang spot on in this game, I have to imagine that faust has chosen the "bad guys" from the books to be the bad guys here.

People are right that there is a lot more gray areas in GoT, but this is a game of mafia, so he needs to do something with it.

It's absolutely possible (and awesome) to design a game with four neighborhoods, but one neighborhood is a front for the mafia.  They would still have their secret hideout (factional QT), but as we have seen, many a laundromat or restaurant has been a mafia front in the past.  So just reflavor it here.  Maybe House Stark is the front, I don't know the books well enough.  But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

So, I do think it is relevant to figure out who is most likely to be the bad guys flavor-wise so we can use that information to inform our decisions during the day, during claims, during the night, etc.

[pacovf]

Do you want to make us houseless because you think it's the best thing to do for town, or for another reason?

Sorry, didn't get to this yet.

This is a fantastic and astute question, silverspawn.  Kudos.

This could absolutely be a thing that benefits a particular player (or players).  In this case, not me.  But you are right we should think about that.

If there are roles that relate to houses/house powers, it's possible there are powers that relate to being unhoused.

What? You suggested to unhouse everybody just because? Without thinking the implications of it?

What the heck are you doing?

[pacovf]

Ash and I have a lot in common with regards to our approach to the game. This level of anti town is not scum ash anymore than it would be scum PPS. Leveraging it against him will be  a scum tell for the rest of the game. Unpacked and catching up.

Excuse my boldness, but aside from preemptively trying to intimidate us into not lynching Ash, do you have anything to back up your defense of him?

[Witherweaver]

Ash and I have a lot in common with regards to our approach to the game. This level of anti town is not scum ash anymore than it would be scum PPS. Leveraging it against him will be  a scum tell for the rest of the game. Unpacked and catching up.

Excuse my boldness, but aside from preemptively trying to intimidate us into not lynching Ash, do you have anything to back up your defense of him?

That he's correct is sufficient enough.

The interesting thing is he's established a predefined reason to find someone scummy.  It would have actually been better if he hadn't mentioned this.

[pacovf]

He's not just being antitown, he is downright not making any sense.

[Witherweaver]

He's not just being antitown, he is downright not making any sense.

Welcome to Mafia with Ashersky!

[pingpongsam]

He's not just being antitown, he is downright not making any sense.

You've clearly never played a game with me.

[Witherweaver]

Feel free to reread Dice Mafia if you want some examples

[silverspawn]

He's not just being antitown, he is downright not making any sense.

Welcome to Mafia with Ashersky!

... do you think he is right, or do you think he isn't making any sense?

[pacovf]

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

[Witherweaver]

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

"let him"?  Are you suggestions sanctions?  Or that he be lynched?

[pingpongsam]

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

Logic is how scum wins games. Logic works with available information. Guess who has more every time?

Inference and detection are much more subtle and difficult, yet more effective because scum has no means of directly confounding it. In fact, town is better equipped to create a basis for leveraging which is exactly what ash is up to here. You call it spreading confusion but I see you choosing to be confused, you say he is acting against town yet I see him forging a weapon with what he has, thus equipping town.

[Witherweaver]

He's not just being antitown, he is downright not making any sense.

Welcome to Mafia with Ashersky!

... do you think he is right, or do you think he isn't making any sense?

Usually when Ash does things, he does them for a reason.  Whether that reason is from Town or Scum is hard to tell.

[pingpongsam]

Dice mafia was won on inference and detection not on logic.

[ashersky]

Because this?

I simply can't understand what Ash is doing here. It's super anti-town. He's also misunderstanding the setup once more.

Teproc, I suggest you heed your own advice and ignore Ash for the time being.

And the discussion about morality in aSoIaF is interesting and all, but we've got a thread for that, and here it's derailing the discussion.

And he starts to deflect again.

Why is it not relevant to the discussion?  Go and read past flavored games.  In LOTR1, for example, orcs and dragons were scum.  In the books, also evil.  In Dr. Who mafia, the bad guys were the evil dudes from the show.  It goes on and on.  In samurai and ninjas, same deal.  In Buffy, I had to use the amnesia trope to NOT have the big bads be the regular big bads.

So, as it has been stated by more than one person not named ashersky (hence, you should have read it) that the flavor is pretty dang spot on in this game, I have to imagine that faust has chosen the "bad guys" from the books to be the bad guys here.

People are right that there is a lot more gray areas in GoT, but this is a game of mafia, so he needs to do something with it.

It's absolutely possible (and awesome) to design a game with four neighborhoods, but one neighborhood is a front for the mafia.  They would still have their secret hideout (factional QT), but as we have seen, many a laundromat or restaurant has been a mafia front in the past.  So just reflavor it here.  Maybe House Stark is the front, I don't know the books well enough.  But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

So, I do think it is relevant to figure out who is most likely to be the bad guys flavor-wise so we can use that information to inform our decisions during the day, during claims, during the night, etc.

While we all know roles/alignments are not related to flavor names, I think it is far-fetched to assume the setup ignores flavor completely.

For example, if this was Star Wars mafia, and someone was Darth Vader, we would assume he's a bad guy.  But maybe he's not, because .  But we'd assume it.  So maybe the mod gives him a safe flavor claim, like Yoda, and then he doesn't have that issue.

I'm saying we could extrapolate that into an infinite number of possibilities for game creation.  Regardless, I'd expect the mafia to share flavor, whether it be they are all wild snow creatures or Lannisters.  So it is important to keep all possibilities in our minds.

[ashersky]

Feel free to reread Dice Mafia if you want some examples

I actually think liopoil's game is the one to read.  The one where I put forward the most pro-town plan ever, which included lynching me, while scum.

[ashersky]

Because this?

I simply can't understand what Ash is doing here. It's super anti-town. He's also misunderstanding the setup once more.

Teproc, I suggest you heed your own advice and ignore Ash for the time being.

And the discussion about morality in aSoIaF is interesting and all, but we've got a thread for that, and here it's derailing the discussion.

And he starts to deflect again.

Why is it not relevant to the discussion?  Go and read past flavored games.  In LOTR1, for example, orcs and dragons were scum.  In the books, also evil.  In Dr. Who mafia, the bad guys were the evil dudes from the show.  It goes on and on.  In samurai and ninjas, same deal.  In Buffy, I had to use the amnesia trope to NOT have the big bads be the regular big bads.

So, as it has been stated by more than one person not named ashersky (hence, you should have read it) that the flavor is pretty dang spot on in this game, I have to imagine that faust has chosen the "bad guys" from the books to be the bad guys here.

People are right that there is a lot more gray areas in GoT, but this is a game of mafia, so he needs to do something with it.

It's absolutely possible (and awesome) to design a game with four neighborhoods, but one neighborhood is a front for the mafia.  They would still have their secret hideout (factional QT), but as we have seen, many a laundromat or restaurant has been a mafia front in the past.  So just reflavor it here.  Maybe House Stark is the front, I don't know the books well enough.  But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

So, I do think it is relevant to figure out who is most likely to be the bad guys flavor-wise so we can use that information to inform our decisions during the day, during claims, during the night, etc.

While we all know roles/alignments are not related to flavor names, I think it is far-fetched to assume the setup ignores flavor completely.

For example, if this was Star Wars mafia, and someone was Darth Vader, we would assume he's a bad guy.  But maybe he's not, because [spoiler.].  But we'd assume it.  So maybe the mod gives him a safe flavor claim, like Yoda, and then he doesn't have that issue.

I'm saying we could extrapolate that into an infinite number of possibilities for game creation.  Regardless, I'd expect the mafia to share flavor, whether it be they are all wild snow creatures or Lannisters.  So it is important to keep all possibilities in our minds.

Yeah, so I can't edit posts, but that wasn't actually supposed to be spoiled.  I just wanted to write [spoiler.] there.

[ashersky]

Do you want to make us houseless because you think it's the best thing to do for town, or for another reason?

Sorry, didn't get to this yet.

This is a fantastic and astute question, silverspawn.  Kudos.

This could absolutely be a thing that benefits a particular player (or players).  In this case, not me.  But you are right we should think about that.

If there are roles that relate to houses/house powers, it's possible there are powers that relate to being unhoused.

What? You suggested to unhouse everybody just because? Without thinking the implications of it?

What the heck are you doing?

Who says I didn't think about the implications?  I'm saying that it's great SS thought about implications.

[pacovf]

PPE 5

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

"let him"?  Are you suggestions sanctions?  Or that he be lynched?

I'll restate the heart of my question. If you mantain that usual scumtells don't apply to determine whether Ash is scum or not, what other heuristic do you use to tell scum!Ash from town!Ash? Eenie meenie miney mo?

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

Logic is how scum wins games. Logic works with available information. Guess who has more every time?

Inference and detection are much more subtle and difficult, yet more effective because scum has no means of directly confounding it. In fact, town is better equipped to create a basis for leveraging which is exactly what ash is up to here. You call it spreading confusion but I see you choosing to be confused, you say he is acting against town yet I see him forging a weapon with what he has, thus equipping town.

My brain is leaking through my ear canal right now. Could you try to explain, with simple words, what Ash is trying to do here? Metaphors evade me, and we seem to be using the words "logic", "inference" and "detection" differently.

Also, I thought that "choosing to be confused" was Awaclus' line.

[Witherweaver]

PPE 5

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

"let him"?  Are you suggestions sanctions?  Or that he be lynched?

I'll restate the heart of my question. If you mantain that usual scumtells don't apply to determine whether Ash is scum or not, what other heuristic do you use to tell scum!Ash from town!Ash? Eenie meenie miney mo?

That's what reads are for.  If you think he's scum, vote for him. 

[pingpongsam]

PPE 5

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

"let him"?  Are you suggestions sanctions?  Or that he be lynched?

I'll restate the heart of my question. If you mantain that usual scumtells don't apply to determine whether Ash is scum or not, what other heuristic do you use to tell scum!Ash from town!Ash? Eenie meenie miney mo?

So what, we just let him go on his merry way of spreading confusion and acting against town's best interests?

How do you guys ever catch him using this sort of logic?

Logic is how scum wins games. Logic works with available information. Guess who has more every time?

Inference and detection are much more subtle and difficult, yet more effective because scum has no means of directly confounding it. In fact, town is better equipped to create a basis for leveraging which is exactly what ash is up to here. You call it spreading confusion but I see you choosing to be confused, you say he is acting against town yet I see him forging a weapon with what he has, thus equipping town.

My brain is leaking through my ear canal right now. Could you try to explain, with simple words, what Ash is trying to do here? Metaphors evade me, and we seem to be using the words "logic", "inference" and "detection" differently.

Also, I thought that "choosing to be confused" was Awaclus' line.

WW has it. Do you think ash is scum? I don't and I don't because scum ash would not do this today (maybe next game). In fact, I think ash has positioned himself well as town. You seem to think otherwise but refuse to vote towards it because you are using logic that says scum does confusing and anti town things. Or, you are scum and you don't want to be seen as the the one who pushed a wagon on a town flip especially when that town called you out early. You see, by this inference I doubt much that you are scum either. Would you like to argue with that conclusion as well?

[pacovf]

It is implied in the opening post that the Greyjoys have bought the loyalty of some of the inhabitants of Westeros; maybe that's the case, maybe it isn't, but it is an easy explanation of who scum is. You'll notice that none of the revealed characters are actually members of the Houses they start in. That line of thinking you are following is misplaced, in my opinion.

Who says I didn't think about the implications?  I'm saying that it's great SS thought about implications.

It is expected from anyone that is discussing the setup to be thinking about the implications, so I don't know what is so great about it.

You have shown many times in here that you haven't read the setup very well, so I don't know why I should suddenly assume that you've started thinking about the implications, especially when apparently you are giving free town points for doing so, all of a sudden.


PPE:

That's what reads are for.  If you think he's scum, vote for him. 

What reads? You just said that Ash being antitown and not making sense is not a scumtell. What am I supposed to base my read on, then?

PPE 1

[silverspawn]

the thing about mafia is, although scum and town play is different, the most important (?) goal of both is the same: look towny. you absolutely want to look towny as town, and you absolutely want to look towny as scum. if we think ash is town now, it is, in a way, good play from him, and the fact that I have a strong townread on Teproc aswell is also good. Whether or not what he is saying makes sense might be debatable, but, unless one of them is actually scum, what he did was beneficial for town.

though I'm still not sure about the pacovf thing.

[pacovf]

WW has it. Do you think ash is scum? I don't and I don't because scum ash would not do this today (maybe next game). In fact, I think ash has positioned himself well as town. You seem to think otherwise but refuse to vote towards it because you are using logic that says scum does confusing and anti town things. Or, you are scum and you don't want to be seen as the the one who pushed a wagon on a town flip especially when that town called you out early. You see, by this inference I doubt much that you are scum either. Would you like to argue with that conclusion as well?

Yes, I very much would. I don't understand how you infer that my scuminess is doubtful, because it doesn't follow from your argument, which points to the opposite. If I read it correctly, which at this point, with half my brain outside my skull, I don't know.

[silverspawn]

actually, this kind of play is inspiring, the more I think about it.

[Robz888]

Okay... I think this is town ash.

I'm not sure whether I agree with ash about pacovf. But I think pacovf has not reacted in a super townie way. It's a bit hard to tell though, since he's a newbie--to me, at least.

I guess I'll Vote: Pacovf, so I am on record as doing something.

As far as all the House stuff goes, we are unfortunately talking about it too much probably. I'm just not sure what we can actually do to clearly help town. I'll defer to WW on the matter of revealing our House PR. If he wants to, I understand.

[pacovf]

But I think pacovf has not reacted in a super townie way.

Out of curiosity: I haven't reacted in a super townie way, or I have reacted in a scummy way?

[Robz888]

But I think pacovf has not reacted in a super townie way.

Out of curiosity: I haven't reacted in a super townie way, or I have reacted in a scummy way?

They are the same thing.

[pacovf]

Hum, no? The first one includes null.

[ashersky]

You have shown many times in here that you haven't read the setup very well, so I don't know why I should suddenly assume that you've started thinking about the implications, especially when apparently you are giving free town points for doing so, all of a sudden.

Have I shown that, though?  And if I've shown that, does that mean it's true?

I've shown why I think you are scum.  Does that mean it's true?

[silverspawn]

But I think pacovf has not reacted in a super townie way.

Out of curiosity: I haven't reacted in a super townie way, or I have reacted in a scummy way?

They are the same thing.

they are the same thing. why don't you get it?

[pacovf]

You have shown many times in here that you haven't read the setup very well, so I don't know why I should suddenly assume that you've started thinking about the implications, especially when apparently you are giving free town points for doing so, all of a sudden.

Have I shown that, though?  And if I've shown that, does that mean it's true?

I've shown why I think you are scum.  Does that mean it's true?

The two are indeed linked. Half your arguments relied on the setup, and were proven false. So either you didn't understand the setup and built a case on me based on that misunderstanding, or you pretended not to understand the setup and built so that you could build a case against me.

Which one do you prefer?

PPE 1

[pacovf]

or you pretended not to understand the setup * so that you could build a case against me.

Fixed

[Witherweaver]

It is implied in the opening post that the Greyjoys have bought the loyalty of some of the inhabitants of Westeros; maybe that's the case, maybe it isn't, but it is an easy explanation of who scum is. You'll notice that none of the revealed characters are actually members of the Houses they start in. That line of thinking you are following is misplaced, in my opinion.

Who says I didn't think about the implications?  I'm saying that it's great SS thought about implications.

It is expected from anyone that is discussing the setup to be thinking about the implications, so I don't know what is so great about it.

You have shown many times in here that you haven't read the setup very well, so I don't know why I should suddenly assume that you've started thinking about the implications, especially when apparently you are giving free town points for doing so, all of a sudden.


PPE:

That's what reads are for.  If you think he's scum, vote for him. 

What reads? You just said that Ash being antitown and not making sense is not a scumtell. What am I supposed to base my read on, then?

PPE 1

Something better.  Look for alignment-driven motivations in what he's doing.  What's the benefit of not making sense as scum?  To frustrate you into lynching him?  That only real argument would be that he's playing the "Ash is antitown and confusing as town" card to trick those of us that have played with him before into assuming he's town.  That's possible, but we'll just have to figure out which one it is.  Sometimes you can get a read on whether someone is fabricating their meta or genuinely acting like it. 

[pacovf]

Ok, that makes a bit more sense. I'll think about it.

A lot more WIFOM/meta considerations than I altogether like, though. I've never played with him before, after all.

[ashersky]

For those wanted an expanded case on pacovf, here you go.

There is an unavoidable physical and neurological difference in the way one reacts to receiving their role PM, dependent on the alignment contained therein.  Even the most self-aware are unable to avoid this; they can only attempt to conceal it.  This is not new information.

I believe the “newness” of the scum player (as defined by experience playing the game, especially on a forum) has a great effect on this phenomenon.  The newer scum players can be jumpier when under suspicion or more excited from the start of the game.  There are of course other signs, but these two are relevant today.

In estimating pacovf’s alignment, I had the unique opportunity to see his very first moments of the game during night zero without needing to be scum partners with him due to the neighborhood mechanic of this setup.  As mentioned, it is my opinion that his opening posts were that of an overly-excited player, most likely due to rolling scum.  I make this statement based on the cadence and punctuation choices made in those posts, which are mirrored in his first posts of the game.  They are staccato in nature, with short bursts separated not with periods but with commas, to a point of run-on sentences.  Compare that with his pre-game posts, especially when he explains his availability, and there is a striking difference.  So we have a pre-alignment sample and post-alignment sample, with significant change.  Upon arriving in the QT, the absolute first impression I had from pacovf’s posts was “that’s a super excited newbie scum.”  Upon arriving at the opened game thread, it was solidified.

This leads into his turn to silence after I intimated that I had developed opinions.  I never said they were opinions of him (or Teproc), and yet he stopped talking.  How can one who is so excited as to post in such a manner previously then stop completely?  I say it was him being jumpy due to alignment.  One cannot know if there are N0 powers to worry about.  Perhaps he thought I had taken action already?

On a separate note, I made much of his Lannister assumptions.  It is a fair statement to say that my explanation made it seem like I was not thinking of the line in our own QT explaining that to empower ourselves, Lannister as a house would need to cease to exist.  However, my point was that pacovf’s concern for the Lannisters, and their power, was too great for someone who was supposedly unaware of any of that House’s members or its power.  As someone who I believe is knowledgeable of the series, that he would defend the Lannisters against the Starks also struck me as incongruous with a town alignment, I think.  Was he just being thorough in examining the relative strength of our house power against imagined other powers?  That’s a weak defense, in my eyes.

Then there is his assumption, clearly stated in the QT, that scum are or will attempt to be in all houses.  “Thinking like scum” is a standard scum tell, so much so that it is generally disregarded.  Acting like scum, though, is the true tell to be ignored.  I say this because his reasoning for mentioning this idea wasn’t in an attempt to protect town, such as “you know, I think scum might do X so we should think about doing Y.”  I think he was being honest, in that, as scum, he thought it was best for his faction.

There’s the scum QT joke, which by itself is a bit scummy.  Most agree, including pacovf himself.

This is the gist of my case on pacovf, BEFORE having presented any of this in thread.  In fact, this is basically just off the QT.  Since the game started, and I’ve put pressure on pacovf via vote/case/argument, I believe his actions and reactions have been truly scummy, as well.  Briefly:

--he call the case ridiculous, without merit, impossible to respond to, etc.  This is a standard scum response.  It’s a non-defense.
--he’s been at least slightly annoyed to exasperated at multiple points during the day, too much so.  Exasperation can often be a town tell, but not this type.
--he’s tried to deflect and/or change the subject multiple times instead of just closing the topic with a response.  An analogy would be if I asked Eevee if the police station is on Main Street and he tells me the pub is on Front Street.  Why didn’t Eevee want to tell me where the police station was?

I look forward to being super annoyed that I took the time to write all of this up, just to be ignored by the majority.

[pingpongsam]

You say annoyed when what I heard was politely disagree.

[pacovf]

And here I was thinking I could go to sleep. Give me a moment.

[pingpongsam]

You say annoyed when what I heard was politely disagree.

And by annoyed I meant ignored.

[pingpongsam]

Ash you really think pacovf would be this far extended as scum?

[pacovf]

PPE 2

For those wanted an expanded case on pacovf, here you go.

There is an unavoidable physical and neurological difference in the way one reacts to receiving their role PM, dependent on the alignment contained therein.  Even the most self-aware are unable to avoid this; they can only attempt to conceal it.  This is not new information.

I believe the “newness” of the scum player (as defined by experience playing the game, especially on a forum) has a great effect on this phenomenon.  The newer scum players can be jumpier when under suspicion or more excited from the start of the game.  There are of course other signs, but these two are relevant today.

Not exactly sure why you need so much introduction, but huh cool.

In estimating pacovf’s alignment, I had the unique opportunity to see his very first moments of the game during night zero without needing to be scum partners with him due to the neighborhood mechanic of this setup.  As mentioned, it is my opinion that his opening posts were that of an overly-excited player, most likely due to rolling scum.  I make this statement based on the cadence and punctuation choices made in those posts, which are mirrored in his first posts of the game.  They are staccato in nature, with short bursts separated not with periods but with commas, to a point of run-on sentences.  Compare that with his pre-game posts, especially when he explains his availability, and there is a striking difference.  So we have a pre-alignment sample and post-alignment sample, with significant change.  Upon arriving in the QT, the absolute first impression I had from pacovf’s posts was “that’s a super excited newbie scum.”  Upon arriving at the opened game thread, it was solidified.

This is genuinely funny, so thanks for that. For the rest, this is purely a meta thing. Go read Newbie Mafia, where I act exactly the same way, and where I was town.

This leads into his turn to silence after I intimated that I had developed opinions.  I never said they were opinions of him (or Teproc), and yet he stopped talking.  How can one who is so excited as to post in such a manner previously then stop completely?  I say it was him being jumpy due to alignment.  One cannot know if there are N0 powers to worry about.  Perhaps he thought I had taken action already?

I have answered to this already... You posted your "I have thoughts" comment after I stopped discussing the setup with Teproc, not the other way around. And your comment made clear that you didn't want to share those thoughts, so I didn't answer.

Teproc had been roughly just as active as I had been in the QT, and he didn't post anything after your comment either. Yet you don't find him scummy for it.

On a separate note, I made much of his Lannister assumptions.  It is a fair statement to say that my explanation made it seem like I was not thinking of the line in our own QT explaining that to empower ourselves, Lannister as a house would need to cease to exist.  However, my point was that pacovf’s concern for the Lannisters, and their power, was too great for someone who was supposedly unaware of any of that House’s members or its power.  As someone who I believe is knowledgeable of the series, that he would defend the Lannisters against the Starks also struck me as incongruous with a town alignment, I think.  Was he just being thorough in examining the relative strength of our house power against imagined other powers?  That’s a weak defense, in my eyes.

Sorry, but this is bull. For starters, your original point is:

You starts off with an argument that we should not actively empower our house because House Lannister also has a power.  Why House Lannister?  How would we know the Lannisters were in the game?  Why Lannister's power and not Baratheon or some other big name?  Specifically, Lannister.  Clearly, there is also scum in Lannister.

So don't pretend this wasn't a scumslip argument. Try to disguise it as much as you want now, this is what it was. As for what you are accusing me of right now, Witherweaver did the same thing a couple of pages ago, and I responded to it then.

Then there is his assumption, clearly stated in the QT, that scum are or will attempt to be in all houses.  “Thinking like scum” is a standard scum tell, so much so that it is generally disregarded.  Acting like scum, though, is the true tell to be ignored.  I say this because his reasoning for mentioning this idea wasn’t in an attempt to protect town, such as “you know, I think scum might do X so we should think about doing Y.”  I think he was being honest, in that, as scum, he thought it was best for his faction.

I've said it after you first accused me, I'll say it again now. Most people (XP, Ichi, Robz, and Teproc in the quicktopic: that's everybody but Hydrad and WW, before you posted your case) reached the same conclusion than me, that scum either already was, or would soon get, in all the Houses. Why it's a scumtell for me, but not for everybody else?

There’s the scum QT joke, which by itself is a bit scummy.  Most agree, including pacovf himself.

No, I've never said that I agree. I've said it's your only argument that can't be proven wrong. That doesn't mean I think it is a good one, far from it.

This is the gist of my case on pacovf, BEFORE having presented any of this in thread.  In fact, this is basically just off the QT. Since the game started, and I’ve put pressure on pacovf via vote/case/argument, I believe his actions and reactions have been truly scummy, as well.  Briefly:

--he call the case ridiculous, without merit, impossible to respond to, etc.  This is a standard scum response.  It’s a non-defense.

I've already responded to your case, briefly after you posted it. In fact, I am only restating my response from then now. It is only when you decided that you would stop making sense that I started saying those things.

--he’s been at least slightly annoyed to exasperated at multiple points during the day, too much so.  Exasperation can often be a town tell, but not this type.

Yes, I find this exasperating. I've already addressed this case, and said why I think it is a bad one. Yet you keep bringing it up, not changing a iota, despite parts of it being incoherent. You are, for example, forgetting your "Pacovf must have asked about who was in the quicktopic" and "people suggesting roles are unblockable are scummy" arguments, which were both refuted on the spot. I have a set amount of patience for dealing with nonsensical cases, and it's been running dry for a while now.

I've also been annoyed (and stated so in the quicktopic) by the fact that, despite your initial case being solely based on the QT, and hence unverifiable, and despite Teproc, the other person in the QT, vehemently disagreeing with you, some people were still more than willing to consider your case, which was in essence a your-word-against-mine case.

--he’s tried to deflect and/or change the subject multiple times instead of just closing the topic with a response.  An analogy would be if I asked Eevee if the police station is on Main Street and he tells me the pub is on Front Street.  Why didn’t Eevee want to tell me where the police station was?

Never ever done this. I have always addressed your points, no matter how bad I thought they were. The only thing I've refused to do was to repeat what I had already said beforehand.

This, by the way, is the last time I repeat my original defense to your original case.

[Witherweaver]

Honestly the over-reiteration on how bad and garbage Ash's case is makes me lean more scum on Pacovf.

[pacovf]

Either you agree with the case or you don't.

If you don't agree, then me stating that his argument is baseless shouldn't surprise you, because you think the same thing. If you do agree, then me stating that it is baseless should reinforce your opinion, because I am trying to minimize its good points.

I don't know how it should influence your decision one way or another.

[Witherweaver]

Either you agree with the case or you don't.

If you don't agree, then me stating that his argument is baseless shouldn't surprise you, because you think the same thing. If you do agree, then me stating that it is baseless should reinforce your opinion, because I am trying to minimize its good points.

I don't know how it should influence your decision one way or another.

I mean, obviously your response to the case is going to be more enlightening than the case itself, to everyone but Ashersky and perhaps Teproc.

[ashersky]

Ash you really think pacovf would be this far extended as scum?

I think he thinks/knows that to backpedal now would lose him a lot of credibility.  So yes, scum!pacovf, having extended himself this far, is loathe to retract an iota for fear of how it would look.

[pacovf]

I mean, obviously your response to the case is going to be more enlightening than the case itself, to everyone but Ashersky and perhaps Teproc.

Waaaaaaaait a minute. Are you saying that the case itself is irrelevant? Would you say that Ashersky knew that?

Ash you really think pacovf would be this far extended as scum?

I think he thinks/knows that to backpedal now would lose him a lot of credibility.  So yes, scum!pacovf, having extended himself this far, is loathe to retract an iota for fear of how it would look.

What does far-extended mean?

[pacovf]

Time to sleep for me, by a long shot.

Anyway, it looks like only Teproc and I are interested in discussing the setup seriously (which I find frankly disappointing, by the way), and since we basically agree that we should empower Lannister, I don't think it is strictly necessary to talk much more about it. If you disagree about our conclusion, I welcome your opinion; if it has reasons backing it up, all the better.
Once we decide who to lynch today, and before we hammer, we'll have to organize who goes where, and make sure that everybody has moved, and only then lynch. I would consider anyone hammering before we made sure that everybody has changed houses obvscum.

This is all to say that I will start scumhunting tomorrow.

[Voltaire]

Targ should claim.

ash and pacofv are both town, more certain about pacofv than ash. I also think Teproc is town. Ummmmmmmmm what else hell I don't know. This is all silly.

[azadin]

Time to sleep for me, by a long shot.

Anyway, it looks like only Teproc and I are interested in discussing the setup seriously (which I find frankly disappointing, by the way), and since we basically agree that we should empower Lannister, I don't think it is strictly necessary to talk much more about it. If you disagree about our conclusion, I welcome your opinion; if it has reasons backing it up, all the better.
Once we decide who to lynch today, and before we hammer, we'll have to organize who goes where, and make sure that everybody has moved, and only then lynch. I would consider anyone hammering before we made sure that everybody has changed houses obvscum.

This is all to say that I will start scumhunting tomorrow.

Being still very new to forum mafia, I don't know the meta of anyone, really. So this ash/pacovf thing has me confused, but my instincts are telling me that they are both town. I don't agree with ash's case, but I think his forcefulness on it is protown. paco hasn't struck me as being jumpy or nervous that he's caught. I think his exasperation is normal and somewhat of a town tell.

I am also more interested in discussing set up until we have a solidified plan (exactly who is moving where so we can do what) before we get too focused on the scumhunting. I think we need to wrap up our setup plans ASAP so we can have as much time as possible to figure out who we want to lynch.

[azadin]

Also, if one of Ash's main points against pacovf were his seemingly excited post nature (new scum apparently get giddy and post differently), I'd like to point out that I got this exact impression by Hydrad. He seemed to be posting lots of small bursts of things, none of which were directly helpful (except his revealing of his house's power). Granted, I've never played a game with him before, and haven't had a chance to go back and read previous games he's been in. Just noting suspicion. Everyone seems so hyperfocused on this one case (ash/pacovf), it's like the rest of everyone else's posts are invisible.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Checking in for one minute before I go to bed.
The whole Ash/Pacovf fight seems quite unproductive to me. And I don't like people (especially when they're all in the same house), throwing out town points left and right for a virtually useless fight. Maybe it's an Ash/Pacovf/Teproc scumteam and Ash's comment on one house being a front was just more meta-mind-screwing such as him pushing for his own death as scum in Village mafia (I think was the reference he made).

I don't even know. I'm tired and I find a lot of people scummy right now.

Hydrad and azadin are my top townreads, but that isn't saying a lot with how the game has gone so far.

[ashersky]

Checking in for one minute before I go to bed.
The whole Ash/Pacovf fight seems quite unproductive to me. And I don't like people (especially when they're all in the same house), throwing out town points left and right for a virtually useless fight. Maybe it's an Ash/Pacovf/Teproc scumteam and Ash's comment on one house being a front was just more meta-mind-screwing such as him pushing for his own death as scum in Village mafia (I think was the reference he made).

I don't even know. I'm tired and I find a lot of people scummy right now.

Hydrad and azadin are my top townreads, but that isn't saying a lot with how the game has gone so far.

Boom!  Scumhunting.  Love it.

[faust]

In the past, quoting any QT messages was explicitly disallowed.  Recall Monster's University.

It was ? Hmmm. I forgot about that entirely.

faust, what's the ruling here ?

This wasn't in the rules, so it was allowed at the time you quoted. But I'll make a ruling for the future: You may only quote your own posts from any QT.

[Teproc]

To whoever said that ash was playing well because he was making himelf obvtown :
a) I'm usually good at reading ash. I think I've never been on an ash mislynch (except for self-preservation). This is not normal town!ash. It can still be town!ash, but I'm not convinced at all.
b) Don't do that. Don't. Please. If everyone does that, it's making it easy for scum because they don't have to worry about appearing townie, they can just do whatever and not be held accountable.

ash, you're putting way too much weight in :
a) Lannister being bad guys
b) pacovf commenting on Lannister

That being said, there is obviously a lot to analyse in pacovf's reaction. He's very annoyed, responding with long debunking of ash's case. There are two ways of reading it obviously :
a) pavocf is town and he's pissed at ash's case (which, while it's not getting traction, is the main thing happening in this game) because it's obviously ridiculous to him, partly because ash's Lannister argument is awful, partly because he knows he's town
b) pavocf is scum and is annoyed because of the famous "you're catching me for the wrong reason !" argument.

I don't really see this as being b), but I need to take a loof at pacovf's newbie game.

[Teproc]

In the past, quoting any QT messages was explicitly disallowed.  Recall Monster's University.

It was ? Hmmm. I forgot about that entirely.

faust, what's the ruling here ?

This wasn't in the rules, so it was allowed at the time you quoted. But I'll make a ruling for the future: You may only quote your own posts from any QT.

Ok. Sorry, I didn't mean to bend the rules.

[Teproc]

IN the meantime, do non-ash people have an opinion about empowering Lannister ? BEcause I can't say I'm convinced by the "Lannister is a front for scum" argument, neither am I particularly interested in everyone going houseless and giving up town PRs.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.3

silverspawn (1): Ichimaru Gin
Ichimaru Gin (1): pacovf
pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, Robz888
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor
EgorK (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (6): silverspawn, Hydrad, Teproc, EgorK, pingpongsam, azadin

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[pacovf]

I am also more interested in discussing set up until we have a solidified plan (exactly who is moving where so we can do what) before we get too focused on the scumhunting. I think we need to wrap up our setup plans ASAP so we can have as much time as possible to figure out who we want to lynch.

I agree, but we can't wrap up the set up plans if people don't colaborate. Plus, we can't wrap them up perfectly until we know who we are going to lynch. What do you think we should do, concerning House changes? Empower Lannister?  Empower Stark? Empower Baratheon and Lannister, or emptying Baratheon? Something else altogether?

a) pavocf is town and he's pissed at ash's case (which, while it's not getting traction, is the main thing happening in this game) because it's obviously ridiculous to him, partly because ash's Lannister argument is awful, partly because he knows he's town
b) pavocf is scum and is annoyed because of the famous "you're catching me for the wrong reason !" argument.

In my opinion, the Lannister argument is not the only awful one, and the arguments themselves are not the only reason I am annoyed, but I've already written enough on this subject, so I'll leave it there.

And it's pacovf, not pavocf. You can just call me "P", or "pac", they're easier to spell


On the topic of scumhunting and reads:

Witherweaver: an IC, per reaction to apparent fakeclaim from Teproc.

Teproc: townread, because he pointed out WW's ICness, and the way he's been acting today, overall. But frankly, even if he wasn't a townread, he's speaking too much sense for me to want to lynch him today.

XerxesPraelor: very mild townread, but it's basically a gut feeling. It could change.

Azadin: honest attempts at scumhunting, twice. Townread.

Voltaire: townread, because I don't see the following two posts coming from scum:

Current guess is that if scum faction is Varys-aligned they get a bonus every time the king dies or something.

There will be a role related to the setup. For all we know scum has access to your QT even if they're not in your QT right now.

These are very imaginative guesses about the setup. Scum doesn't do that, because scum knows most of the setup already, no need for imagination. So either he is scum and he is revealing scum powers, or he is town trying very hard to think of all the possibilities. I think the latter is more probable. You can disagree, of course.


Null on PPS, Ichimaru Gin, Robz (although lazy vote is lazy), silverspawn and EgorK (EgorK, I need to hear more from you).


Scummy on Hydrad:

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

Hmm interesting. You guys are much more careful then me I guess. Should we at least try to get our empower ment condition to see what it is?  There's a chance it might not be vig at all and could be useful I guess.

Even if it's only one night getting at least one potential vig shot from town is better then nothing right?

Reacts too strongly to the idea of abandoning the arsonist, and a bit too eager to just get a shot down. It is unclear if even a town-aligned vigilante is good for town so early in the game, and this version is so easy for scum to use in their favour, I don't think this should have been his reaction as town.  Vote: Hydrad.

Oh, and Ash, you definitely have to vote for Hydrad, he's posted a self-aware joke!

Targa eyes are obviously scummy. Let's lynch then all it's obvious they are the scum faction!

[ashersky]

Hydrad's joke is noted.

[ashersky]

Hydrad's joke is noted.

Of course, you joking about the joke because of your joke?  That's crazy meta scummy.

[pacovf]

Meme time!

[pingpongsam]

My curiosity dictates we empower lannister.

[Witherweaver]

IN the meantime, do non-ash people have an opinion about empowering Lannister ? BEcause I can't say I'm convinced by the "Lannister is a front for scum" argument, neither am I particularly interested in everyone going houseless and giving up town PRs.

I'm fine with empowering Lannister.  I can move to Lannister, one Stark and one Baratheon move to Lannister, one Lannister to Stark and one Lannister to Baratheon.

[Witherweaver]

Are self-aware jokes jokes that have become sentient?

[pacovf]

IN the meantime, do non-ash people have an opinion about empowering Lannister ? BEcause I can't say I'm convinced by the "Lannister is a front for scum" argument, neither am I particularly interested in everyone going houseless and giving up town PRs.

I'm fine with empowering Lannister.  I can move to Lannister, one Stark and one Baratheon move to Lannister, one Lannister to Stark and one Lannister to Baratheon.

And Ichi to Baratheon. But someone else than you is going to Lannister from Targaryen. If the argument for not sharing Targ's power is that it's possible that there's zero scum in there, we're certainly not making the IC leave the house.

Are self-aware jokes jokes that have become sentient?

A bit of a misnomer, but it's a joke that shows that the person is very self-aware.

[Teproc]

I'm going to assume WW knows what he's doing by suggesting that.

vote : PPS

Came in, said ash was town and... that's it ? Generally been incredibly non-controversial, which is not town!PPS.

[Witherweaver]

IN the meantime, do non-ash people have an opinion about empowering Lannister ? BEcause I can't say I'm convinced by the "Lannister is a front for scum" argument, neither am I particularly interested in everyone going houseless and giving up town PRs.

I'm fine with empowering Lannister.  I can move to Lannister, one Stark and one Baratheon move to Lannister, one Lannister to Stark and one Lannister to Baratheon.

And Ichi to Baratheon. But someone else than you is going to Lannister from Targaryen. If the argument for not sharing Targ's power is that it's possible that there's zero scum in there, we're certainly not making the IC leave the house.

I don't get that.

[Witherweaver]

Lannisters need one person from each other House for empowerment?  Or only from two other houses?

[silverspawn]

b) Don't do that. Don't. Please. If everyone does that, it's making it easy for scum because they don't have to worry about appearing townie, they can just do whatever and not be held accountable.

I said that. But I don't understand this point.

[silverspawn]

Lannisters need one person from each other House for empowerment?  Or only from two other houses?

from each other house

[pacovf]

I'm trying to minimize the damage in case you made the wrong decision when choosing not to reveal your power. The odds of scum being in Targ are much lower if someone else than you leaves the House.

[silverspawn]

I find it slightly annoying that we don't have a summarization of sorts about who is in which house and what the powers are. i think i'll try to make one

[pacovf]

We actually do:

Lannister:
Pay their debts: chosen member targets a player, last action of target to chosen player gets done on said target player.
Empower condition: must contain a member of each other house. I someone has been in more than one house, he counts for each of them

Pingpongsam
Silverspawn (Oberyn Martell)
Voltaire (Queen of Thorns)
Azadin

Stark:
Bodyguard
Empower condition: House Lannister has perished

Ash
Pacovf (Brynden Tully)
Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)

Baratheon:
Arsonist
Empower condition: Stannis Baratheon is king

Hydrad
EgorK

Targaryen:

Empower condition:

Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)
Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
XerxesPraelor

Houseless:
Ichimaru Gin (Jon Snow)

[silverspawn]

Stark:

• Members
  
  • pacovf (Brynden Tully)
  • Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)
  • Ashersky
• Power:
  Bodyguard
• Empowerment Condition:
  House Lanister must have perished
• Empowered Ability:

Lannister:

• Members:
  
  • pingpongsam
  • Voltaire (Queen of Thorns)
  • Azadin
  • silverspawn (Oberyn Martell)
• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action of a targeted Player, with him as the new target
• Empowerment Condition:
  For each house, one Player who used to be in this house must now be in house Lannister

Targaryen:

• Members:
  
  • Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
  • Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)
  • XerxesPraelor
• Power:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Empowerment Condition:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Targaryen:

• Members:
  
  • Baratheon
  • Hydrad
  • EgorK
• Power:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Empowerment Condition:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

House-free: Ichimaru Gin

[silverspawn]

oh well. now we have two.

[silverspawn]

But I missed something. what is arsonist?

[Hydrad]

But I missed something. what is arsonist?

It's our power.

Every night we can prime someone or we can choose to light on fire all the players we have primed. There's a role used in mafia that does exactly this which is called an arsonist

[Witherweaver]

But I missed something. what is arsonist?

It's our power.

Every night we can prime someone or we can choose to light on fire all the players we have primed. There's a role used in mafia that does exactly this which is called an arsonist

You sure there's no special condition on lighting Jon Snow on fire that you're keeping from us?  Ichi, hide! 

[Robz888]

Okay, so I am supposed to move from Targaryen to Lannister? Is that right, WW?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so I am supposed to move from Targaryen to Lannister? Is that right, WW?

I kind of think I should instead, because I'm a likely target for night actions.  Scum will want to kill me, town will want to protect me.  Either way, we have a useful retribution action on Night 2.

But, Pacman thinks that could compromise the accountability of House Targaryen, which I don't quite agree with. 

Presumably if we decide to change during the day, it will take place at the beginning of Night 1, so all night actions will resolve with the house changes having taken effect.

[Teproc]

It's hard to argue about that without knowing the Targ power, so you guys should figure it out in your QT probably (assuming you still don't want to claim).

[pacovf]

• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action of a targeted Player, with him as the new target

That would actually be a very strong power, but you are missing a condition. You copy the latest night Action that targeted player has done on you. There's a world of difference in power.

But, Pacman thinks that could compromise the accountability of House Targaryen, which I don't quite agree with.

It's hard to argue about that without knowing the Targ power, so you guys should figure it out in your QT probably (assuming you still don't want to claim).

What Teproc said. You should figure it out in your QT, I am just telling you something to keep in mind. At this point, I can only trust you know what you are doing.

Also haha, pacman.

[Voltaire]

IN the meantime, do non-ash people have an opinion about empowering Lannister ? BEcause I can't say I'm convinced by the "Lannister is a front for scum" argument, neither am I particularly interested in everyone going houseless and giving up town PRs.

I guess I'm mildly happy to see us empower Lannister, since I'm a Lannister, and since I thought that my House was probably too difficult to control for town to bother. So mildly support, but can easily be convinced to do other things.

[Teproc]

Voltaire, what are your thoughts on pacovf ?

Actually it seems you've already said you think is town. But I'm getting serious flashbacks of Game of Thrones mafia, amusingly enough. Which should tell me he's town, but the situation is a little reversed, so... do you see what I mean ?

[azadin]

• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action of a targeted Player, with him as the new target

That would actually be a very strong power, but you are missing a condition. You copy the latest night Action that targeted player has done on you. There's a world of difference in power.

This could be Lannister's empowered power, actually. Though that would be pretty strong, I think.

[azadin]

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

My proposal, if we do in fact lynch Hydrad are as follows:

• Ichi to Baratheon
• a Baratheon to Lannister
• a Stark to Lannister
• a Targaryen (Witherweaver?) to Lannister
• a Lannister to Stark
• 2 Lannisters to Baratheon

We still need to figure out specific people for (2), (3), (5), and (6).

This would leave us with the following:

Lannister

• 4 members
• empowered
• Joffrey on Iron Throne (strongman Hand of the King)

Stark

• 3 members
• not empowered

Targaryen

• 2 members
• not empowered

Baratheon

• 3 members
• not empowered

[Hydrad]

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

My proposal, if we do in fact lynch Hydrad are as follows:

• Ichi to Baratheon
• a Baratheon to Lannister
• a Stark to Lannister
• a Targaryen (Witherweaver?) to Lannister
• a Lannister to Stark
• 2 Lannisters to Baratheon

We still need to figure out specific people for (2), (3), (5), and (6).

This would leave us with the following:

Lannister

• 4 members
• empowered
• Joffrey on Iron Throne (strongman Hand of the King)

Stark

• 3 members
• not empowered

Targaryen

• 2 members
• not empowered

Baratheon

• 3 members
• not empowered

What that's wrong. My way had 5 in baratheon so that we would also be empowered. 1 stark would join us and one other person as you only have 12 there

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, what are your thoughts on pacovf ?

Actually it seems you've already said you think is town. But I'm getting serious flashbacks of Game of Thrones mafia, amusingly enough. Which should tell me he's town, but the situation is a little reversed, so... do you see what I mean ?

I actually don't get the comparison you're making, but I think you're town, so I want to figure this out! Explain.

[XerxesPraelor]

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

[azadin]

What that's wrong. My way had 5 in baratheon so that we would also be empowered. 1 stark would join us and one other person as you only have 12 there

Not if we lynch you. That makes 12. I could be talked into rearranging some moves if we want to empower 2 houses tonight, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk.

This actually made me think of another of question: if Baratheon does become empowered (they have to have made the king by having a majority of members, no?), do they become de-empowered if they lose the throne?

PPE: 1, looks like XP thought of the same thing.

[Hydrad]

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

[Teproc]

Voltaire, what are your thoughts on pacovf ?

Actually it seems you've already said you think is town. But I'm getting serious flashbacks of Game of Thrones mafia, amusingly enough. Which should tell me he's town, but the situation is a little reversed, so... do you see what I mean ?

I actually don't get the comparison you're making, but I think you're town, so I want to figure this out! Explain.

In GoT, I replaced at the start of day 2 and it was my first game. We kept saying the same things and you got a strong town read on me from that and proceeded to buddy me into oblivion. I was wary at first, but then concluded you wouldn't buddy me THAT much if you were scum, which was correct. Then day 3 happened but that's beside the point.

My point is : pacovf is buddying me somewhat agressively here (he even said "Teproc speaks the sense" at some point, which is what reminded of GoT), but I can't really make the same reasoning because he's a newbie, so he might now know buddying is generally considered to be scummy. This is basically the situation you were in in GoT except the roles are reversed, and I'm not sure what  make of it.

Do you see what I mean now ?

PPE : 3

[Teproc]

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

Excellent question.

faust, once a house is empowered, can it lose that status ?

[Voltaire]

Yes yes I do! And before I saw your post, I came into the thread prepared to post this:

This post is the sense! Watch out Teproc, I have a new buddy.

Or something like that. But I still stand by it.

So I do get what you mean. Either the three of us are the beginning of an unstoppable three-headed IC team or we have a serious problem on our hands.

Anyway, either way, I don't want to lynch you or pacofv today. Stronger read on him than you.

[pacovf]

Teproc: I knew that buddying is considered scummy, if that helps you reach a conclusion. It's your own fault for being overall helpful and sensible even under Ashersky's aura of madness, I guess.

[pacovf]

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

That's not really an answer to the accusations, is it?

Either the three of us are the beginning of an unstoppable three-headed IC team

Uh, wow, remove your finger from the IC-gun, you are a bit too trigger happy there, don't you think?

[Voltaire]

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

That's not really an answer to the accusations, is it?

Either the three of us are the beginning of an unstoppable three-headed IC team

Uh, wow, remove your finger from the IC-gun, you are a bit too trigger happy there, don't you think?

I now use claiming to be an IC (and I know Teproc does too) as a joke ever since Robz has claimed it repeatedly when the circumstances absolutely did not call for it.

Also, as Teproc said, the backstory is that I buddied him hard, as town, in the previous GoT game because he was super obv!town and that made me happy. It made POE so much easier because Teproc played so well. Now I'm getting that vibe from you too.

[Voltaire]

I absolutely do not want Baratheon empowered. I still lean towards abandoning them.

[azadin]

I absolutely do not want Baratheon empowered. I still lean towards abandoning them.

Are you ok with my proposal of moves, then? It doesn't abandon Baratheon, but doesn't empower them, either. Leaves 3 people there for accountability purposes.

Though EgorK is also suspiciously non-active and he's in there.

[pacovf]

I'm mildly in favour of empowering Baratheon, because it wouldn't be much harder to do, wouldn't be more dangerous (4 people in one house means plenty of accountability), and well, I am curious.
I am somewhat against dissolving it, because more QTs is bad for mafia, I think?
I am completely against leaving only one or two people in Baratheon, for obvious reasons.

Otherwise, I am ok with your proposed moves. BTW, if we lynch Hydrad, EgorK will have to go to Lannister anyway.

[Hydrad]

that is one thing to be aware of. If scum is afriad of the lannister power the easiest way for them to do that is to just kill me and egork.

[Hydrad]

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

That's not really an answer to the accusations, is it?

Ya its not. But I don't really see what I'm being accused of... both azadin and XP just kinda voted me without much of a explaination.

[pacovf]

I'll refresh your memory.

Also, if one of Ash's main points against pacovf were his seemingly excited post nature (new scum apparently get giddy and post differently), I'd like to point out that I got this exact impression by Hydrad. He seemed to be posting lots of small bursts of things, none of which were directly helpful (except his revealing of his house's power). Granted, I've never played a game with him before, and haven't had a chance to go back and read previous games he's been in. Just noting suspicion. Everyone seems so hyperfocused on this one case (ash/pacovf), it's like the rest of everyone else's posts are invisible.

Scummy on Hydrad:

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

Hmm interesting. You guys are much more careful then me I guess. Should we at least try to get our empower ment condition to see what it is?  There's a chance it might not be vig at all and could be useful I guess.

Even if it's only one night getting at least one potential vig shot from town is better then nothing right?

Reacts too strongly to the idea of abandoning the arsonist, and a bit too eager to just get a shot down. It is unclear if even a town-aligned vigilante is good for town so early in the game, and this version is so easy for scum to use in their favour, I don't think this should have been his reaction as town.  Vote: Hydrad.

Oh, and Ash, you definitely have to vote for Hydrad, he's posted a self-aware joke!

Targa eyes are obviously scummy. Let's lynch then all it's obvious they are the scum faction!

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

[silverspawn]

well, everyone seems to shrug ash's suspicions off as nonsense. I'm not so sure about it, but I'm also not strongly pro P lynch, so I'll just leave it at that.

I don't really get the Hydrad case. he strikes me as pretty innocent

[silverspawn]

I am somewhat against dissolving it, because more QTs is bad for mafia, I think?

I actually haven't posted a single thing in the Lannister QT. the problem is, the mafia/player ratio isn't any lower there than it is here. why should QT's even be beneficial for us?

[Hydrad]

I'll refresh your memory.

Also, if one of Ash's main points against pacovf were his seemingly excited post nature (new scum apparently get giddy and post differently), I'd like to point out that I got this exact impression by Hydrad. He seemed to be posting lots of small bursts of things, none of which were directly helpful (except his revealing of his house's power). Granted, I've never played a game with him before, and haven't had a chance to go back and read previous games he's been in. Just noting suspicion. Everyone seems so hyperfocused on this one case (ash/pacovf), it's like the rest of everyone else's posts are invisible.

Scummy on Hydrad:

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

Hmm interesting. You guys are much more careful then me I guess. Should we at least try to get our empower ment condition to see what it is?  There's a chance it might not be vig at all and could be useful I guess.

Even if it's only one night getting at least one potential vig shot from town is better then nothing right?

Reacts too strongly to the idea of abandoning the arsonist, and a bit too eager to just get a shot down. It is unclear if even a town-aligned vigilante is good for town so early in the game, and this version is so easy for scum to use in their favour, I don't think this should have been his reaction as town.  Vote: Hydrad.

Oh, and Ash, you definitely have to vote for Hydrad, he's posted a self-aware joke!

Targa eyes are obviously scummy. Let's lynch then all it's obvious they are the scum faction!

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

Ah thanks. Somehow I forgot that you had also made the case against me and just saw the azadin and XP votes which didn't make sense. I guess I didn't want to lose my power because if we get to use in with a town person its good for us. So my first reaction was why can't we use it as it gives us a chance to hit scum during the night. I will admit I underestimated the issues if we let a scum control it. Part of me just wanted to control it and use it in a town way but for a moment I forgot that none of you know I'm town and that you won't be willing to trust me to control the power.

[pacovf]

PPE 1

I am somewhat against dissolving it, because more QTs is bad for mafia, I think?

I actually haven't posted a single thing in the Lannister QT. the problem is, the mafia/player ratio isn't any lower there than it is here. why should QT's even be beneficial for us?

I'm not 100% on this, so I can be convinced otherwise, but you can sorta coordinate traps in the QT, by choosing which information you want to share and which you don't. In the case mafia isn't in all houses, it just takes one such trap to fire to catch scum, and even if mafia is in all houses, because mafia doesn't have daychat (I guess this is the sort of thing that would be hinted at, at the very least, and the House system makes me believe there isn't), we can catch scum which isn't in the House.

[pacovf]

@Hydrad: How is an arsonist good for town? How do you know you were going to hit scum? There's more town than scum going around.

Azadin thinks you have been jumpy/giddy, and posting without saying anything truly useful, what do you say to that?

[pacovf]

well, everyone seems to shrug ash's suspicions off as nonsense. I'm not so sure about it, but I'm also not strongly pro P lynch, so I'll just leave it at that.

...who is everyone?

If you are not strongly pro lynching me, who do you want to lynch?

[silverspawn]

If you are not strongly pro lynching me, who do you want to lynch?

don't really have a strong target yet. I'll probably do some rereads, but we're not really in a rush. 4 days left to the deadline.

[pacovf]

Certainly, but we will have to coordinate House movements once we decide who to lynch. We can't wait until the last minute, not in this setup.

[Hydrad]

@Hydrad: How is an arsonist good for town? How do you know you were going to hit scum? There's more town than scum going around.

Azadin thinks you have been jumpy/giddy, and posting without saying anything truly useful, what do you say to that?

Its not always going to be good but if you do hit scum during night its a huge help. Its kinda like a vig. You might be scared for hitting town and you are going to at least a few times. But its still overall good for town. Its kinda like doing a day one lynch with no info. Its still a chance to hit scum so you should do it anyways in the small chance of hitting scum. Thats how i feel atleast.

[Hydrad]

also in regards to being jumpy and giddy. I don't think I've been either of those.

as for posting without saying anything useful I think thats a bad habit I'm picking up in some of my games where I don't want to lurk so I'll post some stuff. But I don't actually have anything to say so I end up just posting something that doesn't really help.

[pacovf]

@Hydrad: How is an arsonist good for town? How do you know you were going to hit scum? There's more town than scum going around.

Azadin thinks you have been jumpy/giddy, and posting without saying anything truly useful, what do you say to that?

Its not always going to be good but if you do hit scum during night its a huge help. Its kinda like a vig. You might be scared for hitting town and you are going to at least a few times. But its still overall good for town. Its kinda like doing a day one lynch with no info. Its still a chance to hit scum so you should do it anyways in the small chance of hitting scum. Thats how i feel atleast.

The difference is that, in a day one lynch, you get to see who was for and who was against the lynch, who started it, who pushed it, who resisted it... How is "a small chance of hitting scum" "still overall good for town", when the other side of the coin is offing town?

You still haven't answered Azadin's point, by the way.

[Hydrad]

@Hydrad: How is an arsonist good for town? How do you know you were going to hit scum? There's more town than scum going around.

Azadin thinks you have been jumpy/giddy, and posting without saying anything truly useful, what do you say to that?

Its not always going to be good but if you do hit scum during night its a huge help. Its kinda like a vig. You might be scared for hitting town and you are going to at least a few times. But its still overall good for town. Its kinda like doing a day one lynch with no info. Its still a chance to hit scum so you should do it anyways in the small chance of hitting scum. Thats how i feel atleast.

The difference is that, in a day one lynch, you get to see who was for and who was against the lynch, who started it, who pushed it, who resisted it... How is "a small chance of hitting scum" "still overall good for town", when the other side of the coin is offing town?

You still haven't answered Azadin's point, by the way.

I think i did in the post above? or was there something else I missed

[pacovf]

Sorry, crossposted, didn't see your second post.

[Voltaire]

I absolutely do not want Baratheon empowered. I still lean towards abandoning them.

Are you ok with my proposal of moves, then? It doesn't abandon Baratheon, but doesn't empower them, either. Leaves 3 people there for accountability purposes.

Though EgorK is also suspiciously non-active and he's in there.

I think I'm ok with your proposed moves, I'll need to look them over.

The reason I want Baratheon not empowered/gone is, why the hell do we want a non-100% town arsonist in this game? It's basically a vigilante that has to make their choices earlier/is less flexible. Also, their House is a full arsonist without empowerment. Why the hell do we want a non-100% town ultra-arsonist in this game?

I'm not crazy about a Hydrad lynch. EgorK seems fine, it's where my vote is, if we're going to lynch lurkers.

PPS would also be a good lynch, I think maybe.

[pacovf]

Ok, if your defense to posting without actually having any content is that you do it so that you don't appear to be lurking, you are failing to convince me of your towniness.

Try to give me some content. Surely you must have opinions by now?

[Voltaire]

I am somewhat against dissolving it, because more QTs is bad for mafia, I think?

I actually haven't posted a single thing in the Lannister QT. the problem is, the mafia/player ratio isn't any lower there than it is here. why should QT's even be beneficial for us?

Liar! You posted a "hello" (not an actual quote!)-style message. It was very, very brief. Reasonable enough that you would forget you did this.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: Voltaire

PPE 3 where now it looks like omgus

Hell, I agree then, Vote: pps

Then kill volt, please.

[Voltaire]

Vote: Voltaire

PPE 3 where now it looks like omgus

Hell, I agree then, Vote: pps

Then kill volt, please.

This implies you wanted to vote for me before you saw my comment that I would enjoy your lynch. Would you please elaborate?

[pacovf]

The reason I want Baratheon not empowered/gone is, why the hell do we want a non-100% town arsonist in this game?

There is a small advantage to arsonist instead of vigilante: if you prime town, mafia might kill them for you. If you were a vig, mafia would have killed someone else instead. This obviously can't happen against mafia. So, the odds of killing scum are slightly higher for a town arsonist than for a town vig.

Of course, the fact that it isn't 100% town-aligned is really worrying. I definitely think that the Baratheons should no-vote when asked who is going to use the power.

Voltaire, what do you think about my comment on QTs? I'm curious.


PPE 2 : gee the self-lynchers multiply.

[Hydrad]

I'm slightly against the egork lynch as if we lynch egork and I move to lannister. If it ends up being a strong power that we want to keep then all scum will do is kill me and we lose the power. I guess if we have a doctor or something it makes it harder but if they have strongman it doesn't matter.

Also I may be forgetting but stark was a bullet proof power right? whats the difference between giving someone a bullet proof and a doctor?

[pingpongsam]

Vote: Voltaire

PPE 3 where now it looks like omgus

Hell, I agree then, Vote: pps

Then kill volt, please.

This implies you wanted to vote for me before you saw my comment that I would enjoy your lynch. Would you please elaborate?

I implicated you before for opportunistic traction seeking. You then indicated that since I did not emphatically call you scum that I was the one being scummy about it. Then you disappeared. Funny, now that my name was put on the table by someone else you come out in support of it. Again, opportunistic traction seeking. Now you have traction you were looking for.

[pacovf]

I'm slightly against the egork lynch as if we lynch egork and I move to lannister. If it ends up being a strong power that we want to keep then all scum will do is kill me and we lose the power. I guess if we have a doctor or something it makes it harder but if they have strongman it doesn't matter.

Also I may be forgetting but stark was a bullet proof power right? whats the difference between giving someone a bullet proof and a doctor?

Not the kind of content I was expecting...

I'll answer anyway: Stark has a bodyguard. If the person targeted would die, the bodyguard dies instead.

The point about EgorK and you dying is irrelevant: anyone that has passed through Baratheon will still count for empowerment purposes, and we intend to send 3 (or 4) people to Baratheon today anyway.

[Teproc]

Vote: Voltaire

PPE 3 where now it looks like omgus

Hell, I agree then, Vote: pps

Then kill volt, please.

RIght after I say you're being too reasonable for town!PPS ? It won't work.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, what do you think about my comment on QTs? I'm curious.

I think QTs are massively pro-scum. They have all the info, they can manipulate better.

[Teproc]

Not "anyone who has passed through" Baratheon will count for empowering Lannister, you need an original memeber of the house, or at least tha's how I understood it.

QTs aren't necessarily pro-scum. They generally are though.

[Hydrad]

I'm slightly against the egork lynch as if we lynch egork and I move to lannister. If it ends up being a strong power that we want to keep then all scum will do is kill me and we lose the power. I guess if we have a doctor or something it makes it harder but if they have strongman it doesn't matter.

Also I may be forgetting but stark was a bullet proof power right? whats the difference between giving someone a bullet proof and a doctor?

Not the kind of content I was expecting...

I'll answer anyway: Stark has a bodyguard. If the person targeted would die, the bodyguard dies instead.

The point about EgorK and you dying is irrelevant: anyone that has passed through Baratheon will still count for empowerment purposes, and we intend to send 3 (or 4) people to Baratheon today anyway.

Oh I thought that we had to originate from baratheon to activate lannisters power. I misunderstood I guess. Also I'll try to get a big post later today but right now am at work. during break or something I will try to give a post of where all my reads are.

[pacovf]

Surely a Lannister can answer whether "passing through" is enough to qualify, but this post makes me think it does.

Lannister's EMpowerment is that the House needs to (collectively) have been sworn to the other Houses. So a former Stark/Targ, and a former Baratheon, in a 6-player House would be enough, for example.

[pacovf]

Not "anyone who has passed through" Baratheon will count for empowering Lannister, you need an original memeber of the house, or at least tha's how I understood it.

QTs aren't necessarily pro-scum. They generally are though.

So huh, would you be pro or anti dissolving Baratheon? Because right now, unless we empower them just to check, I think they are a liability for town, save for the extra QT. If the consensus is that QTs are pro-scum, I'm in favour of dissolving the House.

I guess we could send people there today and dissolve it tomorrow, just to have spare Baratheons for the Lannisters, but that's about it.

[azadin]

Surely a Lannister can answer whether "passing through" is enough to qualify, but this post makes me think it does.

Lannister's EMpowerment is that the House needs to (collectively) have been sworn to the other Houses. So a former Stark/Targ, and a former Baratheon, in a 6-player House would be enough, for example.

I confirm this. Passing through is sufficient.

[Hydrad]

keep in mind we only have 2 moves each. So sending people there today then leaving tomorow means they are stuck in that place the rest of the game.

[azadin]

Not "anyone who has passed through" Baratheon will count for empowering Lannister, you need an original memeber of the house, or at least tha's how I understood it.

QTs aren't necessarily pro-scum. They generally are though.

So huh, would you be pro or anti dissolving Baratheon? Because right now, unless we empower them just to check, I think they are a liability for town, save for the extra QT. If the consensus is that QTs are pro-scum, I'm in favour of dissolving the House.

I guess we could send people there today and dissolve it tomorrow, just to have spare Baratheons for the Lannisters, but that's about it.

I should mention that our empowerment condition only requires players having been sworn to the remaining houses, not all of the original houses.

[Teproc]

As long as there are at least 3 Baratheon (enough to ensure they won't use their power, or if they do there should be at least one townie to tell us about it) I want to keep it. We have no idea what empowered houses really are : we've been guessing it's a bigger version of the original role, but who knows ?

In terms of flavor for example, why would House Stark in power be a Doctor ? I mean they could I suppose, but there are probably other things completely unrelated to protection you could imagine.

I don't see Baratheon as being a threat at all as long as there is a reasonable number of people in the house.

[Voltaire]

I implicated you before for opportunistic traction seeking. You then indicated that since I did not emphatically call you scum that I was the one being scummy about it. Then you disappeared. Funny, now that my name was put on the table by someone else you come out in support of it. Again, opportunistic traction seeking. Now you have traction you were looking for.

I totally am trying to get wagons going, but that's where my "agreement" with your case on me ends. With all the theory talk going on, I want to make sure scum-hunting doesn't fall by the wayside. I think we've (mostly) accomplished that. As for me "disappearing", you'll note I made a post indicating I'd be more-or-less gone over the weekend.

Do you not see how me using my weapon (my vote) is pro-town?

[Voltaire]

So huh, would you be pro or anti dissolving Baratheon? Because right now, unless we empower them just to check, I think they are a liability for town, save for the extra QT. If the consensus is that QTs are pro-scum, I'm in favour of dissolving the House.

I guess we could send people there today and dissolve it tomorrow, just to have spare Baratheons for the Lannisters, but that's about it.

As I have said before, I am pro-dissolving Baratheon.

Also, if someone was asking, it's anyone who was sworn to a House, not an original member, for Lannister empowerment.

[Voltaire]

As long as there are at least 3 Baratheon (enough to ensure they won't use their power, or if they do there should be at least one townie to tell us about it) I want to keep it. We have no idea what empowered houses really are : we've been guessing it's a bigger version of the original role, but who knows ?

We do. At least Lannister says that our House power gets better, right there in the opening post. No details, but the language makes me 100% convinced Empowered powers are going to be recognizably super-charged versions of original powers.

[pacovf]

I should mention that our empowerment condition only requires players having been sworn to the remaining houses, not all of the original houses.

Oh, ok, that makes some considerations irrelevant.

In terms of flavor for example, why would House Stark in power be a Doctor ? I mean they could I suppose, but there are probably other things completely unrelated to protection you could imagine.

I've said before that I feel like it might be some sort of redirecting power (redirect all actions on target player to self, for example).

It's true that empowered powers might not be stronger/bigger versions of the current power, but the word "empower" kinda implies that, no? PPE: yeah, the word used isn't "gets better", but it sort of says that is going to fill in a similar role.

[pacovf]

*the word used sort of implies that it's going to fill in a similar role.

[Voltaire]

A reminder that House votes are weighted based on time in the house. It's fine now (everyone changing during D1 gives us all the same weighted votes (2) tonight) but something to be aware of if you're thinking longer-term.

[pacovf]

Pretty sure that anybody not changing houses today will get 3 votes tonight, instead of 2.

@Mods: can you confirm this?

[Voltaire]

Pretty sure that anybody not changing houses today will get 3 votes tonight, instead of 2.

@Mods: can you confirm this?

In the example in the opening post, votes increase at the end of the night.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Blah. I see I've left my vote on silver this whole time. I'm going to unvote for now and try to figure out who I want to lynch today.
Quick ramp-up on Hydrad looks like eager scum to me. PPS's self-vote at this point is very surprising to me.

Also. How exactly does one go about changing houses, in the thread or via PM?

PPE: 4

[Teproc]

Oh yeah, that is implied.

Ok, I'm fine with dissolving Baratheon.

Actually I'm not. If we decide to make everyone leave BAratheon, how can we prevent scum frmo seizing that opportunity and going in there by prentending to be houseless ?

OK, new rule : no one goes houseless, we need to keep be able to know where everyone is. Ichi needs to join a house (Lannister probably).

We don't want people to join Targaryen because they haven't claimed, and we don't want too many people in Stark either, so maybe we should just make Lannister te default.

PPE : 4

[Witherweaver]

I agree, there is no accountability in dissolving houses.

[Voltaire]

Alternate fun idea I just had - everyone joins Baratheon. Baratheon may not use their House power on anyone inside their House. 

Probably too silly. But a thing to remember we can do.

Actually I'm not. If we decide to make everyone leave BAratheon, how can we prevent scum frmo seizing that opportunity and going in there by prentending to be houseless ?

Really good point I had not thought of. Anyone house-less is admitting to being scum, we can still do what we were doing? If we can't account for everyone, they're either house-less or Baratheon.

[Witherweaver]

Ha, that's actually interesting.  That would be a way to simulate dissolving all the houses.

[silverspawn]

Alternate fun idea I just had - everyone joins Baratheon. Baratheon may not use their House power on anyone inside their House. 

Probably too silly. But a thing to remember we can do.

Actually I'm not. If we decide to make everyone leave BAratheon, how can we prevent scum frmo seizing that opportunity and going in there by prentending to be houseless ?

Really good point I had not thought of. Anyone house-less is admitting to being scum, we can still do what we were doing? If we can't account for everyone, they're either house-less or Baratheon.

I thought changes of houses are public. But now that I think about it, they probably aren't. that changes quite a few things

I totally am trying to get wagons going, but that's where my "agreement" with your case on me ends. With all the theory talk going on, I want to make sure scum-hunting doesn't fall by the wayside

Isn't it reasonable to get the setup talk out of the way before starting to scum hunt?

About the lynch - we could do Egork. that's not the worst thing in the world. The problem is though, he also lurks as town. If anything, he's probably more active as scum. But still, you can't let lurkers lurk forever

I'll vote:Egork for now. But if anyone presents a strong case (or if I pick something up on a reread), i'll switch.

[Teproc]

I'll vote:Egork for now. But if anyone presents a strong case (or if I pick something up on a reread), i'll switch.

What's the point of your vote then ?

[pacovf]

I'm ok with dissolving Baratheon.

I agree with the Houseless-Baratheon consideration. Starting tomorrow, anybody not being part of a house is confessing his extreme scumminess.

I think we should leave 2 people in Targ (in my opinion, WW should preferably stay there), 3 people in Stark (one leaves for Lannister, and say Ichi comes in), everybody else in Lannister.

Ha, that's actually interesting.  That would be a way to simulate dissolving all the houses.

And when everyone's Baratheon... muhuhuhahaha... no one will be.

This joke never gets old.

[Voltaire]

I have several outstanding questions to faust that should clear up some things (including if Houses are directly notified of their membership like we were at the start of the game).

This post is mostly for me to collect my thoughts.

Names like this are out of my lynch pool today.

silverspawn - null
pacovf - town based on reads
ashersky - absurd, uncertain, frustrating town read
Hydrad - I remember nothing about him but I don't like the wagon, feels veeeeeery easy
Witherweaver - IC thing
Teproc - town based on reads
XerxesPraelor - wait, he's in this game?
EgorK - don't remember
Robz888 - hit & run
Ichimaru Gin - not much
pingpongsam - scummy
azadin - leaning town
Voltaire - me!

[pacovf]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

[Voltaire]

I totally am trying to get wagons going, but that's where my "agreement" with your case on me ends. With all the theory talk going on, I want to make sure scum-hunting doesn't fall by the wayside

Isn't it reasonable to get the setup talk out of the way before starting to scum hunt?

In theory. It never works like that in practice. Hence, do both at the same time.

[Voltaire]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

I don't follow?

[silverspawn]

What's the point of your vote then ?

get him to stop lurking. maybe noone comes up with a better case, and we just end up lynching him

[Teproc]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

I don't follow?

If Robz and XP (that's the other Targ right ?) are both scum, they cna take over BAratheon with no one noticing, if we empty Baratheon.

[pacovf]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

I don't follow?

Would you leave Robz and Xerxes in Targaryen alone? If they are both scum, one goes to Baratheon. If anyone tries to join Targaryen, they are obvscum. How convenient would that be?

Hence, WW is not leaving Targaryen.

PPE what Teproc said.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, that sounds reasonable.

[Teproc]

What's the point of your vote then ?

get him to stop lurking. maybe noone comes up with a better case, and we just end up lynching him

By qualifying your vote and saying you'll switch at the drop of a hat you're not exactly doing a great job of putting pressure on him.

It can be good to overstate your confidence as town, makes people react. If someone voted for you with that reasoning, would you feel compelled to react ?

[silverspawn]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

[Voltaire]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

I don't follow?

If Robz and XP (that's the other Targ right ?) are both scum, they cna take over BAratheon with no one noticing, if we empty Baratheon.

But then they're not in the House they're supposed to be (Targ) with no explanation, meaning they're either Baratheon or House-less (as others would be able to say if they're in their House), they're obv!scum for this. Not a big issue?

We need to consider that scum's #1 goal in a perfect world is probably to control Baratheon. Hence my love of the idea of dissolving it.

[Teproc]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

I don't follow?

If Robz and XP (that's the other Targ right ?) are both scum, they cna take over BAratheon with no one noticing, if we empty Baratheon.

But then they're not in the House they're supposed to be (Targ) with no explanation, meaning they're either Baratheon or House-less (as others would be able to say if they're in their House), they're obv!scum for this. Not a big issue?

We need to consider that scum's #1 goal in a perfect world is probably to control Baratheon. Hence my love of the idea of dissolving it.

Except their partner who is still in Targ can cover them and say they're still in Targ.

I guess that makes them both obvscum relatively quickly.

[Witherweaver]

Another thing, more worrying: if there's only scum in one House, one of them can leave the house and go to Baratheon, and no one would be the wiser.

WW, you are definitely not leaving Targaryen.

I don't follow?

If Robz and XP (that's the other Targ right ?) are both scum, they cna take over BAratheon with no one noticing, if we empty Baratheon.

But then they're not in the House they're supposed to be (Targ) with no explanation, meaning they're either Baratheon or House-less (as others would be able to say if they're in their House), they're obv!scum for this. Not a big issue?

We need to consider that scum's #1 goal in a perfect world is probably to control Baratheon. Hence my love of the idea of dissolving it.

But it's not verifiable, if they're both scum.  They can just say they're both in Targ, and since no one else is in Targ and no one else is in Baratheon, we can't tell.

[silverspawn]

It can be good to overstate your confidence as town, makes people react. If someone voted for you with that reasoning, would you feel compelled to react ?

I think it puts a little bit of pressure on him. More specifically, if other people start voting to and he gets near L-1, L-2, that will put pressure on him. It's obvious that, if I just voted for him without saying that it's not a very serious vote, it would put more pressure on him, but putting pressure on him isn't my top priority right now.

[Teproc]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

No. That's insane, and I don't think Voltaire was serious when he said that. Stark is a 100% pro-town power for example.

PPE : 2

[Witherweaver]

I'm ok with dissolving Baratheon.

I agree with the Houseless-Baratheon consideration. Starting tomorrow, anybody not being part of a house is confessing his extreme scumminess.

I think we should leave 2 people in Targ (in my opinion, WW should preferably stay there), 3 people in Stark (one leaves for Lannister, and say Ichi comes in), everybody else in Lannister.

Ha, that's actually interesting.  That would be a way to simulate dissolving all the houses.

And when everyone's Baratheon... muhuhuhahaha... no one will be.

This joke never gets old.

I don't get it.

[Teproc]

putting pressure on him isn't my top priority right now.

I thought it was ?

What's the point of your vote then ?

get him to stop lurking. maybe noone comes up with a better case, and we just end up lynching him

[silverspawn]

No. That's insane, and I don't think Voltaire was serious when he said that. Stark is a 100% pro-town power for example.

right, that's actually a great point. we shouldn't give up Stark in any case.

But i thought he was serious. Voltaire, were you serious?

[Voltaire]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

[Voltaire]

But it's not verifiable, if they're both scum.  They can just say they're both in Targ, and since no one else is in Targ and no one else is in Baratheon, we can't tell.

But in this world, you're still in Targ. I think this point might be academic though by now?

[Teproc]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

Which is actually a good reason to keep Baratheon alive, just as a place for people to be. Otherwsie scum can PoE who will be targetd by the Stark and Lannister powers.

I say we keep Baratheon alive with min 3 people, and these guys have to agree not to use their power.

[Teproc]

But it's not verifiable, if they're both scum.  They can just say they're both in Targ, and since no one else is in Targ and no one else is in Baratheon, we can't tell.

But in this world, you're still in Targ. I think this point might be academic though by now?

The whole point is to say that WW should not leave Targ.

[pacovf]

PPE whatever geez this is going fast.

There's no way to check where the Targs are, short of sending someone to their house... which apparently we should never ever do.

I think it puts a little bit of pressure on him. More specifically, if other people start voting to and he gets near L-1, L-2, that will put pressure on him. It's obvious that, if I just voted for him without saying that it's not a very serious vote, it would put more pressure on him, but putting pressure on him isn't my top priority right now.

You are not reaching L-1 by saying he is lurking D1, I don't think so.

...what is your top priority right now?

No. That's insane, and I don't think Voltaire was serious when he said that. Stark is a 100% pro-town power for example.

You keep saying things like this, and I keep saying you speak the sense.

I don't get it.

He, it's a reference to the Incredibles. I did this exact same joke somewhere else in the forum, hence the second part of the joke.

[silverspawn]

I thought it was ?

No, I never said it was. I said it's the point of the vote. My top priority is to appear towny. My strategy for that is, write what I think, always answer quickly to questions, don't think too long between conversations. As long as I don't have anything to cover up, it seems the best to just play honest and spontanious.

I think Egork is an alright lynch, but not a very good one. So that's what I wrote.

[Witherweaver]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

Huh, Lannister's, too?  That kind of weakens their ability, somewhat, as scum Lannisters can target other Lannisters more freely.

[Voltaire]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

Which is actually a good reason to keep Baratheon alive, just as a place for people to be. Otherwsie scum can PoE who will be targetd by the Stark and Lannister powers.

I say we keep Baratheon alive with min 3 people, and these guys have to agree not to use their power.

Actually, this works! They each agree to self-vote, nobody achieves a majority, they don't get to use their power. Anyone who doesn't follow the plan is scum. Only manipulable by scum in a way that gives themselves away. Cool.

[Voltaire]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

Huh, Lannister's, too?  That kind of weakens their ability, somewhat, as scum Lannisters can target other Lannisters more freely.

As far as I am aware, the mafia NK is the only ability that does not have this restriction.

[silverspawn]

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

right, then it's only ash who thinks that, and god knows if he's even serious. So we can probably forget about it for now.

[Witherweaver]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

Huh, Lannister's, too?  That kind of weakens their ability, somewhat, as scum Lannisters can target other Lannisters more freely.

As far as I am aware, the mafia NK is the only ability that does not have this restriction.

VT slip?  There could be other individual PRs.

I'm saying, if I'm scum and NK Lannister 1, then Lannister 2 can retribute upon me the next night.  Unless I'm Lannister also, then Lannister 2  can't target me with retribution.

[silverspawn]

though I was referencing this post

I think QTs are massively pro-scum. They have all the info, they can manipulate better.

and not the post where you suggested to do the all baratheon switch

[silverspawn]

oups, that was about QT's and not about house powers. nvm.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not so opposed to us effectively dissolving all Houses by joining the same one.  It would just make this a vanilla game.

The only issue is whether possible town and scum PRs are balanced without House abilities.

[pacovf]

As far as I am aware, the mafia NK is the only ability that does not have this restriction.

Or PR. We don't even know if there's any. But the Hand of the King mentions unblockable, unredirectable. The only power we know of that kinda qualifies is the bodyguard... so right now I think that there probably are a couple of PRs running around; I'd say Mafia probably has something.

right, then it's only ash who thinks that, and god knows if he's even serious.

Oh, I am sure he is. Whether you want to trust him or not...

I'm saying, if I'm scum and NK Lannister 1, then Lannister 2 can retribute upon me the next night.  Unless I'm Lannister also, then Lannister 2  can't target me with retribution.

Yeah, we have to think about this too.

[Voltaire]

As far as I am aware, the mafia NK is the only ability that does not have this restriction.

VT slip?  There could be other individual PRs.

I'm saying, if I'm scum and NK Lannister 1, then Lannister 2 can retribute upon me the next night.  Unless I'm Lannister also, then Lannister 2  can't target me with retribution.

Re-read what I wrote.

[Witherweaver]

something different: Voltaire and ash both said that we should just give up all player roles. does anyone else feel that way?

I tossed out the fun idea that we could actually neuter Baratheon by joining them instead of dissolving them. I don't actually think it's a great idea, but it's worth remembering (and reminding people that House powers can't self-target fellow House members).

Huh, Lannister's, too?  That kind of weakens their ability, somewhat, as scum Lannisters can target other Lannisters more freely.

As far as I am aware, the mafia NK is the only ability that does not have this restriction.

VT slip?  There could be other individual PRs.

I'm saying, if I'm scum and NK Lannister 1, then Lannister 2 can retribute upon me the next night.  Unless I'm Lannister also, then Lannister 2  can't target me with retribution.

Oh, nevermind, setup post says ALL PR's have this restriction except the night kill.

PPE: yeah

[Witherweaver]

As far as I am aware, the mafia NK is the only ability that does not have this restriction.

VT slip?  There could be other individual PRs.

I'm saying, if I'm scum and NK Lannister 1, then Lannister 2 can retribute upon me the next night.  Unless I'm Lannister also, then Lannister 2  can't target me with retribution.

Re-read what I wrote.

So my (other) point still stands right?  Lannister scum can NK Lannister Town, but other Lannisters cannot retaliate because scum is a Lannister.  Right?

[silverspawn]

I'm not so opposed to us effectively dissolving all Houses by joining the same one.  It would just make this a vanilla game.

The only issue is whether possible town and scum PRs are balanced without House abilities.

I think it's very likely that it's not. Though, we do have you, so maybe it is.

and, if we want to dissolve houses, wouldn't it be best to all join stark? that way, the only power left is bodyguard, which is always pro town. or maybe, empower stark, then have a doctor, a bodyguard, and an IC. that seems like not the worst scenario.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not so opposed to us effectively dissolving all Houses by joining the same one.  It would just make this a vanilla game.

The only issue is whether possible town and scum PRs are balanced without House abilities.

I think it's very likely that it's not. Though, we do have you, so maybe it is.

and, if we want to dissolve houses, wouldn't it be best to all join stark? that way, the only power left is bodyguard, which is always pro town. or maybe, empower stark, then have a doctor, a bodyguard, and an IC. that seems like not the worst scenario.

But we can't use them on anyone.  Unless they leave at a later time.

[pacovf]

I'm not so opposed to us effectively dissolving all Houses by joining the same one.  It would just make this a vanilla game.

The only issue is whether possible town and scum PRs are balanced without House abilities.

Hmm ok so apparently PRs too would be neutered by everybody joining the same house.

...But wouldn't that be boring? I'm sure you would make Faust cry from all the mechanics we are not using.

[silverspawn]

All PRs are only able to target players of a House other than their own

oh well, it doesn't work then. I wasn't sure if that goes for all house powers, but it does.

[Voltaire]

So my (other) point still stands right?  Lannister scum can NK Lannister Town, but other Lannisters cannot retaliate because scum is a Lannister.  Right?

Lannister could never retaliate unless they were the Town who was NK'd (and was saved somehow), since the Lannister power is to use an action USED ON YOU by the person you are targeting.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, it would leave us with no PRs, but Mafia still has factional kill.  So.. that strikes me as unbalanced, since standard game has Mafia with a kill and some kind of cop/doctor.

[silverspawn]

well, we don't know how much scum is in this game. If it's 3, we have a 10/3 town - scum ratio without any power roles, if we chose to dissolve them all. even with an IC, that seems pretty bad.

[faust]

faust, once a house is empowered, can it lose that status ?

Yes.

[silverspawn]

plus, if we do that, we don't have a doctor, so scum can just kill the IC in night one.

[Witherweaver]

So my (other) point still stands right?  Lannister scum can NK Lannister Town, but other Lannisters cannot retaliate because scum is a Lannister.  Right?

Lannister could never retaliate unless they were the Town who was NK'd (and was saved somehow), since the Lannister power is to use an action USED ON YOU by the person you are targeting.

Ah, okay.

[pacovf]

Yeah, it would leave us with no PRs, but Mafia still has factional kill.  So.. that strikes me as unbalanced, since standard game has Mafia with a kill and some kind of cop/doctor.

AND the knowledge that there is no cop/doctor, which is nearly as important.

[azadin]

There is no way we can dissolve the houses. It gives scum way too much power with their singular night kill when town is left with nothing. I seriously believe our best bet at this point is to move around, see what sort of empowerment the house powers get, and go from there. If we truly believe that dissolving the PRs will give town an advantage, we can always do that day 2.

[Hydrad]

ok lets say we empower lannister. I almost think that we should already decide who will be the voted person and then stark can bodygaurd that person incase it ends up being a cop power. Otherwise if scum is in that QT they can figure out who to kill and we would lose the information gained.

[faust]

Pretty sure that anybody not changing houses today will get 3 votes tonight, instead of 2.

@Mods: can you confirm this?

For your vote to increase, a player needs to have remained a full game phase (day and night) in the same house. Night 0 does not count. So noone will have more than 2 votes tonight.

[Voltaire]

EgorK actually only has two posts. I had no idea. I don't think scum lurks THAT much.

vote: PPS.

[faust]

How exactly does one go about changing houses, in the thread or via PM?

Only house changes via PM or in the Mafia QT are valid.

[Hydrad]

is voting for the leader also done secretly? Do you know if someone has been voted the highest?

[pacovf]

Bold questions to the mod.

Where do votes for the House leader have to be written? Where does the target of the House leader have to be written?

[silverspawn]

okay, so let me necro my house overview

Stark:

• Members
  
  • pacovf (Brynden Tully)
  • Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)
  • Ashersky
• Power:
  Bodyguard
• Empowerment Condition:
  House Lanister must have perished

Lannister:

• Members:
  
  • pingpongsam
  • Voltaire (Queen of Thorns)
  • Azadin
  • silverspawn (Oberyn Martell)
• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action that a targeted Player used on you, with him as the new target
• Empowerment Condition:
  For each house, one Player who used to be in this house must now be in house Lannister

Targaryen:

• Members:
  
  • Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
  • Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)
  • XerxesPraelor
• Power:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Empowerment Condition:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Baratheon:

• Members:
  
  • Hydrad
  • EgorK
• Power:
  Stannis Baratheon is king
• Empowerment Condition:
  Stannis Baratheon must be King

House-free: Ichimaru Gin


if we empower lannister, it means Hydrad/Egork and Robz/WW/Xerxes and pacov/Teproc/ash must join them, right? and i'd say it's pretty clear we make WW Leader, because he's the IC

[silverspawn]

and there's this thing about never leaving less than 2 in one house, but baratheon supposedly has a weak power anyway, so it might not matter

[pacovf]

and there's this thing about never leaving less than 2 in one house, but baratheon supposedly has a weak power anyway, so it might not matter

What? No, they have a DANGEROUS power. If we decide to let them live (is that the consensus now? I'm not entirely clear), we are keeping at least three people there, for accountability reasons.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.4

silverspawn (1): Ichimaru Gin
pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, Robz888
EgorK (1): silverspawn
Hydrad (3): pacovf, azadin, XerxesPraelor
pingpongsam (3): Teproc, pingpongsam, Voltaire

Not Voting (2): Hydrad, EgorK

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[Voltaire]

and there's this thing about never leaving less than 2 in one house, but baratheon supposedly has a weak power anyway, so it might not matter

Baratheon does not have a weak power, they have a DANGEROUS, STRONG, mostly anti-town power.

[Hydrad]

what if for baratheon. we light prime someone. In the next day they announce who they primed and we can collectivly decide if we should burn them or not. If we think they should live we dissolve baratheon? Is there a downside to that?

[Voltaire]

and there's this thing about never leaving less than 2 in one house, but baratheon supposedly has a weak power anyway, so it might not matter

What? No, they have a DANGEROUS power. If we decide to let them live (is that the consensus now? I'm not entirely clear), we are keeping at least three people there, for accountability reasons.

Consensus, barring setup stuff changing it, is to leave three people in Baratheon who all vote for themselves to do the power, causing nobody to have it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I unvoted silverspawn and am currently not voting

Sorry, I did that in the same post that I asked a mod question in, so it was hard to see I know.

[silverspawn]

Consensus, barring setup stuff changing it, is to leave three people in Baratheon who all vote for themselves to do the power, causing nobody to have it.

alright, I read the first half of the thread in one go because I was away in the beginning, must have missed that

we still don't know how you switch houses, right?

[Voltaire]

Consensus, barring setup stuff changing it, is to leave three people in Baratheon who all vote for themselves to do the power, causing nobody to have it.

alright, I read the first half of the thread in one go because I was away in the beginning, must have missed that

we still don't know how you switch houses, right?

How exactly does one go about changing houses, in the thread or via PM?

Only house changes via PM or in the Mafia QT are valid.

[silverspawn]

ahm.  okay.

[Voltaire]

faust, I've also asked some questions in the Lannister QT.

What happens if two Houses are tied for largest? Who gets Hand of the King? Who makes the King?

[Voltaire]

WW, are you officially not revealing the Targ power and still forbidding entrance by others? Working on a plan I think is better than what we're considering and just want to check.

[Witherweaver]

Officially not revealing.  It's better if others don't join unless there is some compelling reason to.

[silverspawn]

so, how do we do this? volunteers from each respective house switch? Or should we just let WW decide everything?

[Teproc]

We can let each house QT figure this out when we're close to a lynch.

Basically when we get to L-1 with intent to hammer, we should make sure to take the time. Like, having everyone confirm that they've done what they needed to.

[Voltaire]

Cool. I hereby announce that I have a better plan.

Setup: We only get to chance Houses twice. Why are we using several of those moments to empower Lannister, a House with a difficult-to-use swingy power? (Seriously, odds are VTs are going to target VTs unless we can come up with a claiming situation that makes sense and just ew). Do you know what's better? Empowering Stark, the super pro-town power.

Goal: dissolve Lannister to empower Stark, ensure all remaining Houses are >2 members, and put as many people in Baratheon as possible (both to limit the odds scum can manipulate their power and decrease their target pool if they succeed in doing so) while putting as few people in Stark as reasonable (to keep their target pool as wide as possible).

-----
THE PLAN (prior to adjusting for the lynch)
Lannister > Baratheon
Lannister > Baratheon
Lannister > Baratheon
Lannister > Baratheon
IG > Baratheon

Lannister (0)
Stark (4)
Baratheon (6)
Targ (3)

Result: Stark empowered. Baratheon close to being empowered depending on lynch/the answer to the mod question about what happens in case of a tie.
-----

Tweaks: Very easy to adjust for the lynch. Was it an original Baratheon? Who cares. Was it an original Lannister? Who cares. Was it an original Stark? Who cares (3 should still be enough). Was it an original Targ? Just have IG or a Lannister go to Targ instead (with WW's approval). Was it IG? Who cares.

Possible issues: Any regular PRs in Baratheon are also somewhat restricted.

[Voltaire]

Those numbers are wrong. Here are the correct ones:

Lannister (0)
Stark (3)
Baratheon (7)
Targ (3)

If we lynch an original Stark, we just have IG go to Stark.

[Hydrad]

also it doesn't really matter where people originate for baratheon. all we need is to be the biggest house i think

[silverspawn]

that's all under the assumption that the empowered ability is an extension of/similar to to original one.

but yea, we can do that.

[Voltaire]

that's all under the assumption that the empowered ability is an extension of/similar to to original one.

They are. This is not a guess. It is a fact. Read your (OUR!) House QT's opening post.

[pacovf]

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Dunno, I would still try to empower Lannister. It is true that your base power is very awkward, but your powered up version might not be. We can always dissolve Lannister tomorrow. I don't think there will be much need for moving around after/if we dissolve Lannister anyway, so the 2 house change limit shouldn't bother us.

[Teproc]

I like it. My initial thought about empowering Lannister rather than Stark wasn't accounting for the 2 times per game limitation (I missed that when reading the setup I think).

PPE : 4

[Voltaire]

Also, faust just told me that Lannister House power-user doesn't even know what action he's taking. So I absolutely cannot foresee any situation but late-game counter-claiming confirmation/maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe late-game vigging even being possible/productive/even possible to follow or understand.

Good riddance to Lannister, I say.

Also, faust says you'll always know the composition of our Houses, so it should be possible to figure out if people are "missing".

[silverspawn]

that's all under the assumption that the empowered ability is an extension of/similar to to original one.

They are. This is not a guess. It is a fact. Read your (OUR!) House QT's opening post.

that doesn't really say anything about how useful the empowered ability is, does it? it says the ability gets stronger. that can mean almost everything. it depends a little bit on how literal you take it.

[Teproc]

I don't think there will be much need for moving around after/if we dissolve Lannister anyway, so the 2 house change limit shouldn't bother us.

It might seem that way but as our numbers dwindle we will need to move to avoid the risk of leaving scum with a power.

PPE : 2

[Voltaire]

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

[Voltaire]

that's all under the assumption that the empowered ability is an extension of/similar to to original one.

They are. This is not a guess. It is a fact. Read your (OUR!) House QT's opening post.

that doesn't really say anything about how useful the empowered ability is, does it? it says the ability gets stronger. that can mean almost everything. it depends a little bit on how literal you take it.

It doesn't say "the ability turns into something else". My current guesses on a stronger Lannister power (pure speculation):

1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

But see above - Lannister power is crap.

[Teproc]

Also, faust says you'll always know the composition of our Houses, so it should be possible to figure out if people are "missing".

This is an interesting development.

What exactly was the question you asked ? As I understand what you said, it means we could have just asked faust to tell us the full composition of houses, is that correct ?

[Voltaire]

paraphrasing: faust says each House will always have a roster

[pacovf]

PPE 3

I don't think there will be much need for moving around after/if we dissolve Lannister anyway, so the 2 house change limit shouldn't bother us.

It might seem that way but as our numbers dwindle we will need to move to avoid the risk of leaving scum with a power.

PPE : 2

The only dangerous power is Baratheon. As long as we don't send anyone to Baratheon that won't be able to leave the House, it's fine. The moment we are down to 2 people in Baratheon, we dissolve the house.

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I guess... but if we aren't giving the hand of the king to the Starks, how reliable is that? Wouldn't it be better to multiply the possible targets for scum?

And again, you seem to say that the only reason your plan is better is because it frees movements. I don't think we are ever going to feel like "man, I wish we could move all these people around" after D2.

[Voltaire]

And since I can quote myself from the QT, here's the question I asked:

Will we be told who is in our house at the start of each new game phase?

Or, if you'll answer the direct question...

Will we be told when someone joins or leaves our house?

[Voltaire]

paraphrasing: faust says each House will always have a roster

known to that House. Meaning the "This is a QT for Alice, Bob, and Charlie who are in House Blackwater" message will always appear at the start of each House QT, I am assuming.

[silverspawn]

1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

[Teproc]

And since I can quote myself from the QT, here's the question I asked:

Will we be told who is in our house at the start of each new game phase?

Or, if you'll answer the direct question...

Will we be told when someone joins or leaves our house?

Right, we kind of knew that already since he did that in all houses on N0.

There is still the problem that we can't know wether someone is in a all-scum house or houseless, which means keeping our movement is useful.

PAC : the Targaryen power could be antitown, who knows. And dissolving a house is exactly something we can't do if we don't have movement anymore.

Does the Hand of the King strongman apply to scum kills ?

[silverspawn]

*of these, *implicates *any member

[Voltaire]

And again, you seem to say that the only reason your plan is better is because it frees movements. I don't think we are ever going to feel like "man, I wish we could move all these people around" after D2.

I can already see reasons why we might go "omfg we need to get everyone into Baratheon" or "omfg we need to dissolve all the Houses" or "omfg Targaryen needs all Houses to have a prime number of people in them".

[Voltaire]

1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

[azadin]

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

[pacovf]

PAC : the Targaryen power could be antitown, who knows. And dissolving a house is exactly something we can't do if we don't have movement anymore.

Well, if empowered Stark goes the way of the redirector, instead of the way of the doctor, it will be more antitown than a bodyguard... and there will be no turning back.

As I said before, as long as we make sure that everyone in Baratheon can move once more, we can dissolve Baratheon at any time. Sending people that won't be able to move again to Baratheon is plain silly.


PPE: you are empowering 2 houses, yes, but you are losing one power forever (yes non-empowered Lannister is crap, but empowered might not be), and YOU ARE EMPOWERING THE ARSONIST. Don't think that is a particularly good argument.

[Voltaire]

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?

[azadin]

1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

PPE: 2

[Voltaire]

PPE: you are empowering 2 houses, yes, but you are losing one power forever (yes non-empowered Lannister is crap, but empowered might not be), and YOU ARE EMPOWERING THE ARSONIST. Don't think that is a particularly good argument.

And not using the Arsonist. And we get to see what empowered Arsonist is, which seems to be something you'd like.

[Voltaire]

Sending people that won't be able to move again to Baratheon is plain silly.

Good thing I'm not proposing that.

[azadin]

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?

Seems to be that way. "Make sure WW is here so he can do this and that, and let's bodyguard him so he stays alive, etc." I'm not saying I don't think he's an IC, I was just expressing my thoughts that dang I really hope we read that right.

[pacovf]

Haha, yes, I would like to see Baratheon empowered, but we can also empower both Lannister and Baratheon, so it's still not a good argument.

PPE: no, Teproc was assuming that we might do that.

[Witherweaver]

I like Volt's plan.

[Teproc]

1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

PPE: 2

The other con is we lose time. A good power is more useful if we get it earlier. Doctor is really much, much better than Bodyguard (if that's what it empowers to).

[Voltaire]

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

We can't use just 3 moves to check. That leaves 1 in Baratheon and 2 in Targ, which is a big problem. Such a scenario is not under consideration.

Also let's keep lynching PPS.

[pacovf]

The empower Lannister plan needs at least 6 movements. 3 to empower Lannister, and 3 to plug holes.

The emptying Lannister plan needs 5 movements. 4 to empty Lannister, one because Ichi needs to go somewhere.

Are we really haggling for one movement?

[Teproc]

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?

Seems to be that way. "Make sure WW is here so he can do this and that, and let's bodyguard him so he stays alive, etc." I'm not saying I don't think he's an IC, I was just expressing my thoughts that dang I really hope we read that right.

First of all no one is saying "let's bodyguard him so he stays alive". But his mere existence makes Bodyguard stronger. Not the same thing.

Actually that's it, I agree we're relying on an IC that's not an actual IC, but I think it's fine.

[silverspawn]

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

it's a good fact. I do think your plan is better, there's not really an argument pro lannister.

[Teproc]

The empower Lannister plan needs at least 6 movements. 3 to empower Lannister, and 3 to plug holes.

The emptying Lannister plan needs 5 movements. 4 to empty Lannister, one because Ichi needs to go somewhere.

Are we really haggling for one movement?

It's not just one movement. If the Lannister power is bad, it's that + however many we need to empower Stark and rebalance things.

You're saying we on't send people with no movement to BAratheon, but things might get more complicated depending on who we lynched as the game goes on, so it's good to have more movement as a safety net.

[Voltaire]

The other nice thing about the plan is that IG is the only one who needs to wait to send his move order in until after the lynch has been determined. All Lannisters could send their choice in now, and we're really minimizing the odds someone screws something up by not being around a computer at the right time.

[Teproc]

This game will be a pain to reread...

[Voltaire]

Are we really haggling for one movement?

No. We're haggling that Lannister is a crap power and it's better to empower 2 Houses instead, 1 of which is amazing (and 1 of which is terrible, but if empBarath is full vig or something instead that's something worth using maybe) etc. etc. etc.

There's more than one movement at stake here. (And one movement is nothing to sneeze at)

[Voltaire]

This game will be a pain to reread...

I know. Unfortunately there's no going back, I've said "**** it" already.

[silverspawn]

do you think we should determine the lynch target before doing the switching? if so, is there any reason except that it requires us to slightly adapt the switching?

[pacovf]

PPE 6

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

it's a good fact. I do think your plan is better, there's not really an argument pro lannister.

I vehemently disagree. The only real advantage of his plan is that it takes less movements, and as shown, the difference is not really that big.

Just because Lannister base power is useless doesn't mean that the empowered version is too. And even if it is, we can just empty Lannister afterwards. Yes, we will have used more movements that if we emptied Lannister straight, but frankly people are overvaluing movement. So what if someone can't leave Stark/Targaryen? Definitely not the end of the world. The upshot is we get some sort of pseudo-investigative role. Seriously, I don't know how both sides are remotely equal.

[pacovf]

The *possible* upshot.

[Voltaire]

do you think we should determine the lynch target before doing the switching? if so, is there any reason except that it requires us to slightly adapt the switching?

We have to. Otherwise we won't switch in time for tonight.

IG is the only one who has to adapt. If we lynch...

Targ, he goes to Targ
Lannister, he goes to Baratheon
Baratheon, he goes to Baratheon
Stark, he goes to Stark

[faust]

Does the Hand of the King strongman apply to scum kills ?

Yes.

[pacovf]

PPE 2

Are we really haggling for one movement?

No. We're haggling that Lannister is a crap power and it's better to empower 2 Houses instead, 1 of which is amazing (and 1 of which is terrible, but if empBarath is full vig or something instead that's something worth using maybe) etc. etc. etc.

Why should be haggling about that, when we can just check?

There's more than one movement at stake here. (And one movement is nothing to sneeze at)

I honestly think that it is. People stuck in Stark/Targaryen are not a problem.

WW, can Targ's power be used against town?

[pacovf]

Away from Keyboard, it's dinner time here.

[silverspawn]

We have to. Otherwise we won't switch in time for tonight.

IG is the only one who has to adapt. If we lynch...

Targ, he goes to Targ
Lannister, he goes to Baratheon
Baratheon, he goes to Baratheon
Stark, he goes to Stark

so, we don't have to. we can just switch now, and then IG can switch after we decided whom to lynch.

[Voltaire]

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

it's a good fact. I do think your plan is better, there's not really an argument pro lannister.

I vehemently disagree. The only real advantage of his plan is that it takes less movements, and as shown, the difference is not really that big.

Just because Lannister base power is useless doesn't mean that the empowered version is too. And even if it is, we can just empty Lannister afterwards. Yes, we will have used more movements that if we emptied Lannister straight, but frankly people are overvaluing movement. So what if someone can't leave Stark/Targaryen? Definitely not the end of the world. The upshot is we get some sort of pseudo-investigative role. Seriously, I don't know how both sides are remotely equal.

Advantages of my plan:

1. Powers up the most explicitly pro-town House
2. Destroys the tricky-to-use House
3. Minimizes movement
4. Is the easiest to execute during the day (also nothing to sneeze at) today
5. Powers up the most explicitly anti-town House (but we get to see what the are) BUT
6. constrains the anti-town House - if scum tries to take the action, they're outing themselves
7. Maximizes targets for the pro-town House

Disadvantages of my plan:

1. Permanently destroys a House
2. Any conventional PRs in Baratheon are constrained (though this hurts scum too if they have a roleblocker or something)

[Witherweaver]

PPE 2

Are we really haggling for one movement?

No. We're haggling that Lannister is a crap power and it's better to empower 2 Houses instead, 1 of which is amazing (and 1 of which is terrible, but if empBarath is full vig or something instead that's something worth using maybe) etc. etc. etc.

Why should be haggling about that, when we can just check?

There's more than one movement at stake here. (And one movement is nothing to sneeze at)

I honestly think that it is. People stuck in Stark/Targaryen are not a problem.

WW, can Targ's power be used against town?

It can be used against Town or Scum.

[Voltaire]

5. should be under "disadvantages", but other than that, I stand by the list.

[Hydrad]

Do we vote for the leader in PM's or in the QT. If its in Pm's do we get to see who was voted the leader? And for future If we lynch the last person in a house but are sending people into that house for the night will it dissolve before people are able to get in it?

[faust]

Do we vote for the leader in PM's or in the QT. If its in Pm's do we get to see who was voted the leader? And for future If we lynch the last person in a house but are sending people into that house for the night will it dissolve before people are able to get in it?

Votes are public in the QTs.

A house dissolves when at the start of a new game phase, no players are left in that house.

[Hydrad]

hmm ok but I think at the start of a phase people also join. I'm going to assume that means we can still join that house if we lynch the last person. But it probably doesn't matter as I don't think that situation will arise.

[Teproc]

Does the Hand of the King strongman apply to scum kills ?

Yes.

Just remembered why I asked that.

This is a point in favor of empowering Baratheon, since we don't intend to elect a Hand of the King at all in Stannis is king. If Joffrey is King, we will elect a hand of the king since we'll probably want to use the empowered Lannister power, thus taking the risk of giving strongman to scum and negating the Stark power.

[Hydrad]

Does the Hand of the King strongman apply to scum kills ?

Yes.

Just remembered why I asked that.

This is a point in favor of empowering Baratheon, since we don't intend to elect a Hand of the King at all in Stannis is king. If Joffrey is King, we will elect a hand of the king since we'll probably want to use the empowered Lannister power, thus taking the risk of giving strongman to scum and negating the Stark power.

Oh i didn't even think of that. good call.

[silverspawn]

but is it even good for scum if the factional kill is unblockable? if he kills someone who was doctored, he basically reveals himself.

or am i missing something?

[Teproc]

but is it even good for scum if the factional kill is unblockable? if he kills someone who was doctored, he basically reveals himself.

or am i missing something?

Oh. Yeah. That's a good point. I mean he could claim the doctor/bodyguard was roleblocked but yeah.

[Voltaire]

but is it even good for scum if the factional kill is unblockable? if he kills someone who was doctored, he basically reveals himself.

or am i missing something?

Oh. Yeah. That's a good point. I mean he could claim the doctor/bodyguard was roleblocked but yeah.

I don't follow. Are you talking about a strongman priming or igniting, or what? The mafia NK will be secret like always.

[Witherweaver]

Silverspawn seems strangely confused to me this game.

[Teproc]

but is it even good for scum if the factional kill is unblockable? if he kills someone who was doctored, he basically reveals himself.

or am i missing something?

Oh. Yeah. That's a good point. I mean he could claim the doctor/bodyguard was roleblocked but yeah.

I don't follow. Are you talking about a strongman priming or igniting, or what? The mafia NK will be secret like always.

Because if whoever is protected dies, we know the Hand of the King performed the kill, and we know who the Hand of the King is.

[Teproc]

Silverspawn seems strangely confused to me this game.

He just made a very astute observation, so I disagree.

[Teproc]

I would like to note that this a way more fascinating setup than I thought reading it at first. Good job faust !

[Voltaire]

Because if whoever is protected dies, we know the Hand of the King performed the kill, and we know who the Hand of the King is.

Assuming scum doesn't have a JOAT with strongman, or anything else that can mess with it. But I do see what you are saying.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, you're right, I'm completely wrong.  Sorry.

[Voltaire]

I need a Baratheon to ask if they can elect a Hand of the King and then the Hand of the King chooses "No Action" for the arsonist power. Is that legal? I assume faust would not answer me.

[Hydrad]

Lunch time! ok here are my reads

1. silverspawn - null
2. pacovf - nullish scum
3. ashersky - townish
4. Hydrad - IC obviously
5. Witherweaver - about 90% IC. I agree that no scum should do that and I'm not going to lynch him for a while. But if hes somehow still alive at the last 3 or something I'm going to consider him and not give him a free pass like everyone else seems too
6. Teproc - slight town
7. XerxesPraelor - I see him as scummy. His vote on me had really no context. It was just a vote on me. He also hasn't posted much so people are forgetting that hes in this game which is what scum wants I think
8. EgorK - mini scum read? actually probably more null. Egork has barely been in this game at all but from him I'm getting a more unavailable vibe then a trying to hide vibe. Not really sure why.
9. Robz888 - slight scum read. Not as scummy as XP but still don't like it. This isn't how he normally plays but I'm feeling its also a more unavailable feeling then anything.
10. Ichimaru Gin - town read
11. pingpongsam - scummy also.
12. azadin - null
13. Voltaire - town

Overall even though I know its not happening I'm still in favor of tar claiming since I'm pretty sure that there is at least one scum in that area. But as long as WW gets voted to use the power I'm ok with them not claiming since i'm pretty sure hes town. If WW dies though I don't feel as good about tar keeping everything secret.

Overall I'm going to Vote: XP I guess this could be considered OMGUS almost but even if that vote was on someone else I would feel the exact same way.

PPE:10

[Hydrad]

I need a Baratheon to ask if they can elect a Hand of the King and then the Hand of the King chooses "No Action" for the arsonist power. Is that legal? I assume faust would not answer me.

I'll ask in the QT

[silverspawn]

Overall I'm going to Vote: XP I guess this could be considered OMGUS almost but even if that vote was on someone else I would feel the exact same way.

don't you want to add some quotes? otherwise you expect us to remember/reread everything.

[Hydrad]

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

this is pretty much the post. He didn't post anything about read before or since this post.

Basically all he has done is early game discussing of the RMM for a bit. then deciding on whether or not he should reveal the tar power. then he dissapeared for a bit and posted this single post. then is gone again.

[Teproc]

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

this is pretty much the post. He didn't post anything about read before or since this post.

Basically all he has done is early game discussing of the RMM for a bit. then deciding on whether or not he should reveal the tar power. then he dissapeared for a bit and posted this single post. then is gone again.

That's not a bad case actually.

[Hydrad]

also I didn't see anyone notice my idea of priming someone then announcing it the next day and then we can decide to burn them or not. Granted this may not even be possible if baratheon gets empowered but I was seeing it as a double lynch possibility and think we could use the power that way.

[silverspawn]

That's not a bad case actually.

it's not?

[Voltaire]

That's not a bad case actually.

It's tempting me, though I like PPS more right now.

[pacovf]

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

it's a good fact. I do think your plan is better, there's not really an argument pro lannister.

I vehemently disagree. The only real advantage of his plan is that it takes less movements, and as shown, the difference is not really that big.

Just because Lannister base power is useless doesn't mean that the empowered version is too. And even if it is, we can just empty Lannister afterwards. Yes, we will have used more movements that if we emptied Lannister straight, but frankly people are overvaluing movement. So what if someone can't leave Stark/Targaryen? Definitely not the end of the world. The upshot is we get some sort of pseudo-investigative role. Seriously, I don't know how both sides are remotely equal.

Advantages of my plan:

1. Powers up the most explicitly pro-town House
2. Destroys the tricky-to-use House
3. Minimizes movement
4. Is the easiest to execute during the day (also nothing to sneeze at) today
5. Powers up the most explicitly anti-town House (but we get to see what the are) BUT
6. constrains the anti-town House - if scum tries to take the action, they're outing themselves
7. Maximizes targets for the pro-town House

Disadvantages of my plan:

1. Permanently destroys a House
2. Any conventional PRs in Baratheon are constrained (though this hurts scum too if they have a roleblocker or something)

Advantages of my plan:
1. Might reveal an investigative power.
2. Can fall back on your plan.

Disadvantages of my plan:
1. Is harder to set up.
2. Uses up more movements if we have to fall back on your plan.

Frankly, I think advantage 1 outweights pretty much all the advantages of your plan, and I think you people are overvaluing movement. And advantage 2.

The only reason giving me pause right now is that Targ's power can be used against town, which gives a bit more importance to movement than I originally thought. But I still stand by my list.

@Mod: How do House powers work? Do we send our action by PM or by posting them on the QT?

@Teproc/silverspawn: the point about the Hand of the King and the mafia nightkill is a good one. Definitely something to keep in mind.

[pacovf]

If we really want to do an advantage/disadvantage analysis, then:

-I think your advantage 2 is actually irrelevant. Base Lannister power is hardly going to achieve anything, one way or another, so it's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage.
-Advantage 6 applies to the other plan too. From three people up, Baratheon can't really be used for evil.
-Advantage 7 applies to the other plan too.

[Voltaire]

@Mod: How do House powers work? Do we send our action by PM or by posting them on the QT?

This is already in the setup. It says they're secret, so PM.

[Hydrad]

I'm assuming that you could also post it in the QT. but that might not do anything as scum could post it in QT then just switch it with a PM so that everyone thinks they targetted someone else.

[Voltaire]

Well, it seems like neither of us is going to convince the other. I'm willing to go with the other plan if it's chosen though.

WW, which plan do you prefer?

pacofv, WW's preference should be a strong hint (if he even has a preference) that one plan may be better/worse for Targ.

Also, my plan has a nice natural check on anyone going rouge to stay/go to Lannister - Stark won't be empowered, and we know to lynch one of the people "missing". Though really, in either plan, going House-less is admitting to being scum.

[Witherweaver]

I like Voltaire's, though maybe I'm just not too worried about losing whatever Lannister's ability may be. 

[pacovf]

Ugh. Fine. Let's go with your plan. It's just that base Lannister looks too much like a nerfed investigative power that is trying very hard to be useful (and failing).

At least your plan doesn't include the nigthmare scenario of scum running rampant in Targaryen without town being able to do anything about it because we've run out of movements.

[pacovf]

also I didn't see anyone notice my idea of priming someone then announcing it the next day and then we can decide to burn them or not. Granted this may not even be possible if baratheon gets empowered but I was seeing it as a double lynch possibility and think we could use the power that way.

I don't like this, too many moving parts, too little accountability.

[ashersky]

10+ pages overnight.  Eeesh.

Voltaire is town.  His plan is infinitely better than any other seen.

At least one person won't abide by any plan.

The "no houseless allowed" rule is ridiculous.  Go read the setup rules again.  There are clearly pro-town reasons to be houseless in certain situations.

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

PPS is also town.  Town read on SS.

Slightly worried about Robz, because Robz.  Not lynching him until at least D3.

[ashersky]

And stop stop STOP with the IC crap.

The only IC in this game is no one, because the mod has not confirmed anyone as town.

You can decide that WW is most likely town based on counter claiming a flavor name based on a mod error, but I give zero credence to that line of thinking.  If I'm scum, I'm super happy to get an early free counterclaim in.

[pacovf]

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

That is certainly a cool way to remove all accountability from all your acts.

[Teproc]

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

Are you a daycop ?

No ?

Then try to remember all the games in which you've been similarly certain and ended up wrong.

PPE : Would you counterclaim in these exact circumstances though ? Why ?

[Voltaire]

At least one person won't abide by any plan.

The "no houseless allowed" rule is ridiculous.  Go read the setup rules again.  There are clearly pro-town reasons to be houseless in certain situations.

1. Are you warning us that odds are scum won't follow our plans? That's accounted for. Or are you saying you won't follow any plans? That's fine, you're not required to move tonight. If you move somewhere that messes things up, you need a good reason or we're lynching you.

2. "No Houseless allowed" is for right now, not forever. I'm aware there are reasons why it's pro-town. That's why my plan maximizes movement remaining for later.

[ashersky]

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

Are you a daycop ?

No ?

Then try to remember all the games in which you've been similarly certain and ended up wrong.

PPE : Would you counterclaim in these exact circumstances though ? Why ?

Why are you role fishing?

I would absolutely, 100% of the time counterclaim someone who claimed my flavor.  As town, well, I think I've caught scum.  As scum, well, I know it's a mod error already, so it is free cred when it gets cleared up.

[ashersky]

At least one person won't abide by any plan.

The "no houseless allowed" rule is ridiculous.  Go read the setup rules again.  There are clearly pro-town reasons to be houseless in certain situations.

1. Are you warning us that odds are scum won't follow our plans? That's accounted for. Or are you saying you won't follow any plans? That's fine, you're not required to move tonight. If you move somewhere that messes things up, you need a good reason or we're lynching you.

2. "No Houseless allowed" is for right now, not forever. I'm aware there are reasons why it's pro-town. That's why my plan maximizes movement remaining for later.

1.  Odds are that some town won't follow your plans.  Scum, I'm not convinced.

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

[Voltaire]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

...so?

[pacovf]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

Hum, please, name them?

[Teproc]

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

Are you a daycop ?

No ?

Then try to remember all the games in which you've been similarly certain and ended up wrong.

PPE : Would you counterclaim in these exact circumstances though ? Why ?

Why are you role fishing?

I know you're joking but still, come on.

Anyway if it were you counterclaiming Brienne I wouldn't be ICing you because you're the boldest scum player there is, but it's not you, so I feel just fine calling WW a pseudo-IC.

PE : GO ahead and actually list ten. There's, like, two.

[Witherweaver]

Why is PPS town?

[ashersky]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

Hum, please, name them?

Doc that can only target players in other houses
Doc that can only target players in a house they left
Doc that can only take action if houseless
Replace doc above with every other town role ever
Bp if houseless
Role empowered if houseless

Shall I continue for you, scum?  Or is that enough for you guys to discuss in your QT?

[ashersky]

Why is PPS town?

Reads-based.

[ashersky]

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

Are you a daycop ?

No ?

Then try to remember all the games in which you've been similarly certain and ended up wrong.

PPE : Would you counterclaim in these exact circumstances though ? Why ?

Why are you role fishing?

I know you're joking but still, come on.

Anyway if it were you counterclaiming Brienne I wouldn't be ICing you because you're the boldest scum player there is, but it's not you, so I feel just fine calling WW a pseudo-IC.

PE : GO ahead and actually list ten. There's, like, two.

You mean the WW who has been scum 97% of his games?

I could list 50.

[Voltaire]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

Hum, please, name them?

Doc that can only target players in other houses

FYI, this is just the setup rules. If you look at my plan, I'm very aware of the fact that PRs in Houses are restricted.

[ashersky]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

Hum, please, name them?

Doc that can only target players in other houses

FYI, this is just the setup rules. If you look at my plan, I'm very aware of the fact that PRs in Houses are restricted.

I know.  And yet you agree that neutering possible PRs is a good thing?

[Teproc]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

Hum, please, name them?

Doc that can only target players in other houses
Doc that can only target players in a house they left
Doc that can only take action if houseless
Replace doc above with every other town role ever
Bp if houseless
Role empowered if houseless

Shall I continue for you, scum?  Or is that enough for you guys to discuss in your QT?

That's baseless speculation. It's like saying there are 10 reasons to no lynch :
- doc that can only activate if we no lynch
- cop that can only do something if we no lynch
- imaginary PR that can only do something to no lynch
- etc....

See this quote by Robz in your signature ? This is what you're doing right now.

[Witherweaver]

Why is PPS town?

Reads-based.

In particular?  All I've seen PPS do is come out fairly bold and wild, which is also what I would expect a scum PPS that wants to emulate his town meta to do.

[Voltaire]

ash, I actually agree with your point that Houseless can be good for town. I simply think that for N1, we need everyone in the arrangement listed to get its benefits. After that, people should do as they see fit.

[Witherweaver]

pacovf is still the scummiest by a mile.  I will not vote for anyone he is voting for, and I will try to do the opposite of any plan agreed to that he has a hand in designing.

Are you a daycop ?

No ?

Then try to remember all the games in which you've been similarly certain and ended up wrong.

PPE : Would you counterclaim in these exact circumstances though ? Why ?

Why are you role fishing?

I know you're joking but still, come on.

Anyway if it were you counterclaiming Brienne I wouldn't be ICing you because you're the boldest scum player there is, but it's not you, so I feel just fine calling WW a pseudo-IC.

PE : GO ahead and actually list ten. There's, like, two.

You mean the WW who has been scum 97% of his games?

I could list 50.

Hey I'm on a town run!

[Voltaire]

2.  I can name ten reasons off the top of my head that would be sufficient for rescinding the no houseless rule forever.  I'm sure you can.  So can scum.

Hum, please, name them?

Doc that can only target players in other houses

FYI, this is just the setup rules. If you look at my plan, I'm very aware of the fact that PRs in Houses are restricted.

I know.  And yet you agree that neutering possible PRs is a good thing?

I think it's a reasonable price to pay for the benefits, especially since it is temporary.

[Teproc]

You mean the WW who has been scum 97% of his games?

Right, and has he ever done something this bold ?

[Teproc]

The benefits to being houseless are not plural, there is exactly one, and it's only relevant if we control house PRs, which you don't if you just say everyone is houseless, so there are actually no benefits. Solved.

[pacovf]

PPE 8

Shall I continue for you, scum?  Or is that enough for you guys to discuss in your QT?

Yes, that will do nicely, thank you very much for your help. We are going to be busy N1!

...Oops scumslip!

It is way misleading you listing those as 10-50 reasons. They are only reasons if they are universal. If you start listing every single permutation of a PR that could maybe one day give you a reason to go houseless, then you should start assigning probabilities to each one. But hey silly me, this is using logic and reason, I don't think I am going to convince you of anything this way.

Why is PPS town?

Reads-based.

Ugh. Details?

Same for silverspawn.


On the subject of going houseless, didn't we reach that conclusion only in the case we emptied Baratheon? I don't think it is relevant if the plan is to empty Lannister.

[Teproc]

I'm not counting imaginary benefits that may exist in an alternative universe where this is a RMM game.

[Voltaire]

My plan still works if a few people go Houseless, we're just then introducing the problem of:

1. Do we still have enough people in the Houses to ensure town control

and

2. Anyone asking to go Houseless is pretty much outing themselves as a PR for scum, so we need some VTs to cover, and the odds someone accidentally slips in organizing this is huge

[pacovf]

Makes sense.

[Voltaire]

I'm not counting imaginary benefits that may exist in an alternative universe where this is a RMM game.

As usual, ash has a point that (in my opinion) he is blowing out of proportion, but a point nonetheless:

There will be at least one role that relates directly to the setup.

[Witherweaver]

Has anyone ever called Ash out on the "you can lynch me first but when I flip town absolutely lynch X" play?  By lynching him I mean.

[pacovf]

I like where this is going.

[silverspawn]

nice, then we can play 6/3 at the start of day 3. good plan.

[Voltaire]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

[Voltaire]

nice, then we can play 6/3 at the start of day 3. good plan.

? We can't abandon the Houses, scum will just stay in them and claim to be Houseless and there will be no way to know.

[Teproc]

Has anyone ever called Ash out on the "you can lynch me first but when I flip town absolutely lynch X" play?  By lynching him I mean.

No, because the right answer to crazy is not crazy.

@Voltaire : NO he doesn't. The faction related PR could be "works only if houseless" or something, but it could also be "works only if house baratheon is empowered" or something. We simply do not know, and the one person who knows will have to decide on their own if it's worth it to claim to change our mind. ANything in between is anti-town.

PPE : 4

[azadin]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

[silverspawn]

nice, then we can play 6/3 at the start of day 3. good plan.

? We can't abandon the Houses, scum will just stay in them and claim to be Houseless and there will be no way to know.

what i meant was, if there are 3 scum and we lynch ash - pac, we lynch 2 towns plus 2 NK's in N1 and N2, so there will be 6 town and 3 scum left at the start of day 3. which, of course, is awful.

[Witherweaver]

Everyone has many many town reads and no one has scum reads, except for Ash.  And a couple people with mild reads on Hydrad.

[Teproc]

Everyone has many many town reads and no one has scum reads, except for Ash.  And a couple people with mild reads on Hydrad.

Not entirely true. I think pps and xp are scummy.

[Voltaire]

Has anyone ever called Ash out on the "you can lynch me first but when I flip town absolutely lynch X" play?  By lynching him I mean.

No, because the right answer to crazy is not crazy.

@Voltaire : NO he doesn't. The faction related PR could be "works only if houseless" or something, but it could also be "works only if house baratheon is empowered" or something. We simply do not know, and the one person who knows will have to decide on their own if it's worth it to claim to change our mind. ANything in between is anti-town.

PPE : 4

Teproc, we're actually agreeing on everything except for whether or not we think ash is saying a version of this. I think he is. (I'm not saying I support what he's arguing, I don't)

[silverspawn]

I'm exaggerating though, i don't have a strong town read on pac.

[Voltaire]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

Worst idea ever, as I currently think odds are highest they are both town.

[Witherweaver]

Everyone has many many town reads and no one has scum reads, except for Ash.  And a couple people with mild reads on Hydrad.

Not entirely true. I think pps and xp are scummy.

Alright let's do some stuff then.

Vote: PPS

[Voltaire]

Everyone has many many town reads and no one has scum reads, except for Ash.  And a couple people with mild reads on Hydrad.

For me, this is two things:

1. Because of all the theory talk
2. Completely fine (I'm Mr. POE, after all)

But seriously.

[ashersky]

But hey silly me, this is using logic and reason, I don't think I am going to convince you of anything this way.

You will not convince me of anything, ever (this game).  If you start going on a crusade to ensure I am not lynched this game, I will self-vote.

[pacovf]

32 pages in, halfway through D1. I'm in tears.

But seriously.

But seriously what?

But hey silly me, this is using logic and reason, I don't think I am going to convince you of anything this way.

You will not convince me of anything, ever (this game).  If you start going on a crusade to ensure I am not lynched this game, I will self-vote.

You are hilarious. Don't worry, I won't.

[pacovf]

Quote fail.

[Voltaire]

Alright let's do some stuff then.

Vote: PPS

Sweet, we're doing my plan then? I'm prepared to send faust my request to join Baratheon.

We need IG to confirm that he's prepared to join the Targ/Stark if we lynch there, and Baratheon otherwise. And then we need to be careful with the hammer to give him time to do so.

Just reminders on the action plan.

[ashersky]

If I claim day cop, will you all lynch pacovf?

[Teproc]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

Worst idea ever, as I currently think odds are highest they are both town.

I'm not sure this is town!ash. There is a pattern in ash's play, and he knows how people react to him. It feels like there's been a lot of "ash accuses someone in a way over the top manner, then people conclude they're probably both town", so much so that I can see ash deliberately doing the over-the-top tunneling thing for towncred.

[Teproc]

If I claim day cop, will you all lynch pacovf?

If I put this in my signature will people yell at me ?

[pacovf]

If I claim day cop, will you all lynch pacovf?

If you claim cop and use it to lynch me, I will lynch myself.

[Witherweaver]

Alright let's do some stuff then.

Vote: PPS

Sweet, we're doing my plan then? I'm prepared to send faust my request to join Baratheon.

We need IG to confirm that he's prepared to join the Targ/Stark if we lynch there, and Baratheon otherwise. And then we need to be careful with the hammer to give him time to do so.

Just reminders on the action plan.

That sounds good.

[silverspawn]

If I claim day cop, will you all lynch pacovf?

If I put this in my signature will people yell at me ?

wait until the game is over, then go ahead.

[Voltaire]

If I claim day cop, will you all lynch pacovf?

No, because

1. Normally it means we would just lynch you if you're wrong, which means I'd like to say yes, but...
2. I'd think you were lying town.

[Witherweaver]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

Worst idea ever, as I currently think odds are highest they are both town.

I'm not sure this is town!ash. There is a pattern in ash's play, and he knows how people react to him. It feels like there's been a lot of "ash accuses someone in a way over the top manner, then people conclude they're probably both town", so much so that I can see ash deliberately doing the over-the-top tunneling thing for towncred.

That was kind of my point.. eventually players with distinct town play are going to emulate that when they're scum.

[ashersky]

Alright let's do some stuff then.

Vote: PPS

Sweet, we're doing my plan then? I'm prepared to send faust my request to join Baratheon.

We need IG to confirm that he's prepared to join the Targ/Stark if we lynch there, and Baratheon otherwise. And then we need to be careful with the hammer to give him time to do so.

Just reminders on the action plan.

I'm not following your plan, and I have a good reason.

I do have a strong town read on you, though.

[Teproc]

32 pages in, halfway through D1. I'm in tears.

This game is honestly the most fun I've had playing mafia in a long while.

I suggest setting pages to 50 posts btw.

[pacovf]

But seriously.

But seriously what?

[ashersky]

If I claim day cop, will you all lynch pacovf?

No, because

1. Normally it means we would just lynch you if you're wrong, which means I'd like to say yes, but...
2. I'd think you were lying town.

Well, there's

1.  Truthful town
2.  Lying scum
3.  Lying town

And there's the conglomeration of lying but sort of truthful town, which is always fun.

[Teproc]

Alright let's do some stuff then.

Vote: PPS

Sweet, we're doing my plan then? I'm prepared to send faust my request to join Baratheon.

We need IG to confirm that he's prepared to join the Targ/Stark if we lynch there, and Baratheon otherwise. And then we need to be careful with the hammer to give him time to do so.

Just reminders on the action plan.

I'm not following your plan, and I have a good reason.

I do have a strong town read on you, though.

WIll you share where you're going ? Since following the plan implies staying in House Stark, I'm assuming you're moving somewhere.

[ashersky]

But seriously.

But seriously what?

"But seriously, lynch pacovf." I think is what he meant.

[pacovf]

32 pages in, halfway through D1. I'm in tears.

This game is honestly the most fun I've had playing mafia in a long while.

I suggest setting pages to 50 posts btw.

It's all fun and games now, but in the future, when we've got to do a reread, we're gonna feel stones in the kidneys kind of pain.

[Voltaire]

Alright let's do some stuff then.

Vote: PPS

Sweet, we're doing my plan then? I'm prepared to send faust my request to join Baratheon.

We need IG to confirm that he's prepared to join the Targ/Stark if we lynch there, and Baratheon otherwise. And then we need to be careful with the hammer to give him time to do so.

Just reminders on the action plan.

I'm not following your plan, and I have a good reason.

I do have a strong town read on you, though.

As long as you're aware of the consequences (of leaving Stark with less, if you're leaving, which you have to be doing for you to not be following my plan).

It doesn't mess it up at all, really, so full steam ahead everyone else!

[Witherweaver]

*coughDiceMafiacough*

[Witherweaver]

I'm a little put off in that Ash is like the game-the-setup-with-a-plan guy, and he doesn't seem so interested in it here.

[Teproc]

I'm a little put off in that Ash is like the game-the-setup-with-a-plan guy, and he doesn't seem so interested in it here.

I've been saying that for 15 pages.

[Voltaire]

But seriously.

But seriously what?

Just a silly way to end the post with my joke about being Edgar Allen Poe (process of elimination, which is how I scumhunt) because I was making a serious point (lack of scum reads can be ok) and a joke at the same time.

[Voltaire]

I'm a little put off in that Ash is like the game-the-setup-with-a-plan guy, and he doesn't seem so interested in it here.

I've been saying that for 15 pages.

It's worrisome, yes.

[pacovf]

It doesn't mess it up at all, really, so full steam ahead everyone else!

From my own experience with team work:

1. Give names.
2. Give task for every name.

Otherwise nothing ever gets done.

[Hydrad]

Everyone has many many town reads and no one has scum reads, except for Ash.  And a couple people with mild reads on Hydrad.

I think XP and PPS are scum...

PPE: a decent amount

[ashersky]

WIll you share where you're going ? Since following the plan implies staying in House Stark, I'm assuming you're moving somewhere.

I can, but it'll be known either during N1 or at the start of D2, right?  Faust will provide house rosters, so it's not like I can hide somewhere.

Except Lannister, given your plan to kill it.  I'm not going there.  I do believe empowering Stark is the absolute right move.  NEVER using the arsonist house is also the right move (I mean, come on, prime some folks, most likely town, one scum gets control and BOOM).

Lannister power seems like a strong one in a design vacuum, but will rarely work out in real life.  What's the other one?  A secret?  Whatever.

[Teproc]

Fine then, do whatever.

Ichi will have to join Stark then, pretty much regardless of who we lynch.

[ashersky]

I'm a little put off in that Ash is like the game-the-setup-with-a-plan guy, and he doesn't seem so interested in it here.

I've been saying that for 15 pages.

It's worrisome, yes.

Just because I'm not publically doing it doesn't mean I'm not trying to game the setup. 

Besides, I think you all know that me gaming the setup is to related to my alignment.

[Voltaire]

It doesn't mess it up at all, really, so full steam ahead everyone else!

From my own experience with team work:

1. Give names.
2. Give task for every name.

Otherwise nothing ever gets done.

1. LANNISTERS, BEND THE KNEE TO BARATHEON! (I'll post this in our QT too). (for those unfamiliar with flavor, I just mean all Lannisters, switch to Baratheon)
2. JON SNOW, RETURN TO WINTERFELL (join Stark)

[Voltaire]

Except Lannister, given your plan to kill it.

You actually can't. Stark will not be empowered, and we'll know someone is in Lannister.

[Teproc]

I'm a little put off in that Ash is like the game-the-setup-with-a-plan guy, and he doesn't seem so interested in it here.

I've been saying that for 15 pages.

It's worrisome, yes.

Just because I'm not publically doing it doesn't mean I'm not trying to game the setup. 

Besides, I think you all know that me gaming the setup is to related to my alignment.

I'm aware yes, this means you're not adhering to your town meta or your scum meta. I'm not saying it's scummy,just weird.

[silverspawn]

okay i'd just like to say, i lost my townread on ash. just so that, if i happen to have a scumread, it's less 180°. i'm null on him now.

[pacovf]

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

[azadin]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

Worst idea ever, as I currently think odds are highest they are both town.

I don't think it's the worst idea, but ok. I actually have town reads on both as well, but I don't feel like we'll be able to go forward until ash stops his train of an attempted case, and he seems to be pretty stubborn about not budging so I was offering an alternative.

[azadin]

Also, when did we come to the consensus that we're dissolving Lannister? I still don't see why Voltaire's plan is any better than mine.

[azadin]

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

IG has to wait until we know who we're lynching. This is getting out of control. Everyone take a step back, breathe, and let's think.

[Voltaire]

Also, when did we come to the consensus that we're dissolving Lannister? I still don't see why Voltaire's plan is any better than mine.

When we talked it out for the last 12 pages.

[Teproc]

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

Worst idea ever, as I currently think odds are highest they are both town.

I don't think it's the worst idea, but ok. I actually have town reads on both as well, but I don't feel like we'll be able to go forward until ash stops his train of an attempted case, and he seems to be pretty stubborn about not budging so I was offering an alternative.

He'll find something else to talk about eventually. Hopefully.

[pacovf]

Now bolded for convenience and ease of view:

AZADIN, SILVERSPAWN AND PINGPONGSAM: SEND A PM TO FAUST ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE BARATHEON. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO

ICHIMARU GIN: SEND A PM TO FAUT ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE STARK. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO.

Better.

[Teproc]

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

IG has to wait until we know who we're lynching. This is getting out of control. Everyone take a step back, breathe, and let's think.

No he doesn't because ash is moving away from Stark.

[pacovf]

Also, when did we come to the consensus that we're dissolving Lannister? I still don't see why Voltaire's plan is any better than mine.

It isn't. We both stated our opinion. Witherweaver chose between the two plans. That's it.

[silverspawn]

i wanted to ask for a while, what does ppe mean?

[ashersky]

Except Lannister, given your plan to kill it.

You actually can't. Stark will not be empowered, and we'll know someone is in Lannister.

Nice!  You shouldn't have said this though, in case no one else had thought of it.

[Voltaire]

IG has to wait until we know who we're lynching. This is getting out of control. Everyone take a step back, breathe, and let's think.

No he doesn't. Ash says he's leaving Stark, so we're putting IG in Stark.

[ashersky]

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

Don't do this.  Only do it if Voltaire asks you to.

Where do you get off being bossy?  You aren't even the fake IC?

[silverspawn]

Now bolded for convenience and ease of view:

AZADIN, SILVERSPAWN AND PINGPONGSAM: SEND A PM TO FAUST ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE BARATHEON. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO

ICHIMARU GIN: SEND A PM TO FAUT ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE STARK. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO.

Better.

since when are you leading? >_<

ww, can you confirm?

[Teproc]

i wanted to ask for a while, what does ppe mean?

Pre-post edit. Followed by a number, that's how many posts you haven't read because you were writing your post.

PPE : 2

[Teproc]

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

Don't do this.  Only do it if Voltaire asks you to.

Where do you get off being bossy?  You aren't even the fake IC?

Neither is VOltaire...

[Voltaire]

Where do you get off being bossy?  You aren't even the fake IC?

Ooooo, I wondered if you were going to do this! Town read, fading!

[azadin]

Now bolded for convenience and ease of view:

AZADIN, SILVERSPAWN AND PINGPONGSAM: SEND A PM TO FAUST ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE BARATHEON. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO

ICHIMARU GIN: SEND A PM TO FAUT ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE STARK. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO.

Better.

since when are you leading? >_<

ww, can you confirm?

If we're following Voltaire's plan, he also stated the exact same instructions. Let me find the post....

[pacovf]

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

Don't do this.  Only do it if Voltaire asks you to.

Where do you get off being bossy?  You aren't even the fake IC?

It's exactly what he said just before, only in a less confusing way.

[Teproc]

Where do you get off being bossy?  You aren't even the fake IC?

Ooooo, I wondered if you were going to do this! Town read, fading!

He was quoting pacovf, not you.

[ashersky]

I'm tempted to full claim and get killed or ask for a replacement.

[Voltaire]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

[Voltaire]

ash, I think you're town. I think you have a good reason for leaving Stark. I'm fine with you doing your thing right now.

[ashersky]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

You seem very confused, Voltaire.  Both SS and I were talking about pacovf acting like he was in charge instead of you.

[Teproc]

I'm tempted to full claim and get killed or ask for a replacement.

Stark empowered might be a doctor, so... full claiming might not be so bad.

As for the replacement, what ? Since when do you replace out because no one listens to you ?

[Teproc]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

You seem very confused, Voltaire.  Both SS and I were talking about pacovf acting like he was in charge instead of you.

Which is ridiculous since he was just reformatting.

[pacovf]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

You seem very confused, Voltaire.  Both SS and I were talking about pacovf acting like he was in charge instead of you.

You seem confused too. I was just restating what Voltaire had just said.

Why should Voltaire be in charge anyway, according to you?

[ashersky]

I'm tempted to full claim and get killed or ask for a replacement.

Stark empowered might be a doctor, so... full claiming might not be so bad.

As for the replacement, what ? Since when do you replace out because no one listens to you ?

Since it's been every game for a long, long time.  There was a time when people thought I was pretty good at this.  If I'm past my prime, I don't want to be that guy who should have retired two seasons ago but keeps dragging his team down Jeter-style.

[ashersky]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

You seem very confused, Voltaire.  Both SS and I were talking about pacovf acting like he was in charge instead of you.

Which is ridiculous since he was just reformatting.

I had no idea that's what it was, given it didn't use the same words or anything.

[Voltaire]

Since it's been every game for a long, long time.  There was a time when people thought I was pretty good at this.  If I'm past my prime, I don't want to be that guy who should have retired two seasons ago but keeps dragging his team down Jeter-style.

ash, I have no idea wtf you're going on about. You're leaving Stark, cool. THAT'S OK! What's this nonsense about claiming or replacing out?

[pacovf]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

You seem very confused, Voltaire.  Both SS and I were talking about pacovf acting like he was in charge instead of you.

Which is ridiculous since he was just reformatting.

I had no idea that's what it was, given it didn't use the same words or anything.

Which goes to show that it was useful!

[silverspawn]

Which is ridiculous since he was just reformatting.

it's not that ridiculous. this is the final signal for the pms to be sent out. yes, WW already said that he's okay with the plan, but I don't like that pac gives the final signal. maybe that's childish, but I really think WW should do this kind of stuff. also, there is no hurry, we can switch houses now, in an hour, 10 hours, or a day. it doesn't make a difference.

PPE 5. hey, i can do that too 

[ashersky]

since when are you leading? >_<

Um WW already said he was cool with this.

You seem very confused, Voltaire.  Both SS and I were talking about pacovf acting like he was in charge instead of you.

You seem confused too. I was just restating what Voltaire had just said.

Why should Voltaire be in charge anyway, according to you?

It's Voltaire's plan, dude.  You wanted to empower Lannister.  His plan is literally the opposite (destroying Lannister).  So it seems odd to me that you'd be giving orders for Voltaire's plan which runs counter to your plan.

He made the plan, he gets to be in charge.  Argue against it more if you want, or secretly don't follow it, or whatever.  But don't try to climb on his shoulders to grab more towncred as if it was your plan.

[pacovf]

He is the one giving the orders. But the original way he stated them was "everyone else full steam ahead!"

I think we can work on managerial skills too!

[Voltaire]

Which is ridiculous since he was just reformatting.

it's not that ridiculous. this is the final signal for the pms to be sent out. yes, WW already said that he's okay with the plan, but I don't like that pac gives the final signal. maybe that's childish, but I really think WW should do this kind of stuff. also, there is no hurry, we can switch houses now, in an hour, 10 hours, or a day. it doesn't make a difference.

PPE 5. hey, i can do that too 

No, we needed to do it now, because not everyone checks regularly and if we wait to put it into action 36 hours before the day ends someone may not check in time.

[silverspawn]

No, we needed to do it now, because not everyone checks regularly and if we wait to put it into action 36 hours before the day ends someone may not check in time.

okay, fair point. but we can do it in one hour. if someone is afk for >= 24 hours, it's a different story.

[azadin]

I have moved myself to Baratheon.

[pacovf]

Which is ridiculous since he was just reformatting.

it's not that ridiculous. this is the final signal for the pms to be sent out. yes, WW already said that he's okay with the plan, but I don't like that pac gives the final signal. maybe that's childish, but I really think WW should do this kind of stuff. also, there is no hurry, we can switch houses now, in an hour, 10 hours, or a day. it doesn't make a difference.

PPE 5. hey, i can do that too 

People forget. Seriously. Team work is annoying as hell. It's always much harder to do simple stuff than it should be. If you don't state things clearly, boldly, and with urgence, they never get done. This is a fact.

[Voltaire]

pacovf speaks the sense. 

[Witherweaver]

As the fake IC and real Town player, I am supporting Volts plan.

Away for a while. on mobile.

[Witherweaver]

I can't send out the final signals and Pac was just saying what Volt suggested.

[pacovf]

I have moved myself to Baratheon.

Good. One down, three to go.

By the way, Voltaire, have you yourself sent a pm to Faut? You are going to look pretty stupid if you end up alone in Lannister tomorrow.

[silverspawn]

People forget. Seriously. Team work is annoying as hell. It's always much harder to do simple stuff than it should be. If you don't state things clearly, boldly, and with urgence, they never get done. This is a fact.

yes, democracy is a bad system. which is why I think we should let WW make all decisions. that's easier, we just do what he says.

WW has confirmed, so I'll switch right away.

[pacovf]

Hum, it's because WW had already confirmed that I am not still bothering Voltaire about my plan, so WW didn't really need to confirm again.

But you are reaching the right conclusion, so good!

[Teproc]

People forget. Seriously. Team work is annoying as hell. It's always much harder to do simple stuff than it should be. If you don't state things clearly, boldly, and with urgence, they never get done. This is a fact.

yes, democracy is a bad system. which is why I think we should let WW make all decisions. that's easier, we just do what he says.

WW has confirmed, so I'll switch right away.

Democracy is the worst possible political regime, except for all the others.

[silverspawn]

Democracy is the worst possible political regime, except for all the others.

I think, it's either bad but the only one that works, or it's bad and not the only one that works. One of these two.

[Voltaire]

I have moved myself to Baratheon.

Good. One down, three to go.

By the way, Voltaire, have you yourself sent a pm to Faut? You are going to look pretty stupid if you end up alone in Lannister tomorrow.

I'm waiting slightly longer, since I trust myself and know I'm paying attention, in case insanity happens and I need to be somewhere else*. If this statement results in tremendous uproar, I'll switch now. Trust me, if I'm alone in Lannister tomorrow you can lynch me because that would be insane.

*just was made slightly nervous by ash, is all.

[silverspawn]

Switch done, in case that wasn't obvious.

[azadin]

Teproc, love the new sig:

PPE: a decent amount

[XerxesPraelor]

I am completely unable to keep up with this. All I can say is that Ash looks scummy and that theory talk is really boring, and not much real stuff has been going on. I feel like we can just do a random Lurker lynch. Not me, of course, though.

vote: EgorK

[silverspawn]

I'll start rereads now. first target is azadin, because he is too friendly, which makes me scared.

[pacovf]

I am completely unable to keep up with this. All I can say is that Ash looks scummy and that theory talk is really boring, and not much real stuff has been going on. I feel like we can just do a random Lurker lynch. Not me, of course, though.

vote: EgorK

There was a case against you. I'm going to dig it up for you, wait a sec.

[pacovf]

7. XerxesPraelor - I see him as scummy. His vote on me had really no context. It was just a vote on me. He also hasn't posted much so people are forgetting that hes in this game which is what scum wants I think

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

this is pretty much the post. He didn't post anything about read before or since this post.

Basically all he has done is early game discussing of the RMM for a bit. then deciding on whether or not he should reveal the tar power. then he dissapeared for a bit and posted this single post. then is gone again.

Hydrad is voting for you right now.

[XerxesPraelor]

Let's see. I voted Hydrad just like that because I remembered having a bad feeling about Hydrad and because I agreed with the reasons some other people made a case against him with.

Looking back, it was because Hydrad wanted to keep the arsonist power a little too much. I haven't posted much because it seems like others have been figuring out the setup already.

[silverspawn]

well that was quick. he hasn't done a lot of posts. but, unfortunately, he isn't really scummy at all. I didn't want to do the compilation, but it's really short, so i'll do it now. maybe someone else reaches a different conclusion

Here, catching up. (Still have limited internet access until this weekend, as I mentioned in my sign up post).

Will post more in a bit, but for now, I am also Lannister, if that wasn't clear already.

Ok, caught up. There was a lot of stuff there to process, but I can say that Hydrad has posted pretty often, so I'm not sure why Voltaire didn't realize this. As for everything else, I mostly skimmed so I didn't get any obvious reads. I will do a more thorough read in a few to look for that.

I've noticed a couple things. There is ash's case against pacovf, Witherweaver/Teproc mod mixup making WW an IC (not convinced on this yet, but there was discussion), and discussion on whether we should reveal our house powers.

Ash seems to be acting town, but I'm not 100% convinced on his case on pacovf yet (I will try to do a more thorough read to look for reads). I agree with him that there is likely only one scum faction.

How likely is it that scum are spread out enough that they know most of the house powers already? If they do, it's severely to our disadvantage to keep them secret from each other. I think that the opposite scenario (where they don't already know the majority of the house powers), is helpful to neither team. That makes me think it would be to town's advantage to reveal our house powers, so we can coordinate allegiances to utilize the best ones.

PPE: 2

@Robz: you were originally very much in favour of sharing your house power. What is your opinion now?

@Azadin: you mentioned that you were going to do a more thorough reread. How is it coming along?

@EgorK: do you have any opinion on what has been said until now?

Alright, back from being away from internet. Starting my reread now.

House roles are pseudo-unkillable: if you kill one, another one takes its spot.

I am kinda assuming that Stark's empowered power is Doctor, because it makes a lot of sense. Could be something else, but in the end it's still a protective role, so it doesn't really matter.

Hence, pseudo-unkillable protective role + investigative role = profit.

I'm still going through the posts, but I need to post this thought before I lose it:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Lannister's empowered power is full Cop, and the Stark's is full doctor. Not that this makes sense from a flavour view, but think about it. Stark's first power is bodyguard. Doctor is an obvious "upgrade" to this. Our (Lannister) role is like a dumbed-down investigative type thing where we choose another player and learn something about them (though now that I think about it, it's not purely investigative because we also perform the action back). Still, my original thought was that instead of blindly being able to reflect actions, an empowered condition would also reveal some information about the targeted player.

Now, for BALANCE purposes, having pseudo-unkillable doctor AND super-cop would be absolutely insane. It's my thought that the reason the Stark's bodyguard -> doctor upgrade is contingent on Lannister being dissolved is so that combination can never actually happen.

This assumes our empowered power is a cop/investigative type thing, which I'm not positive about, but does make some sense.

The night is dark and full of terrors.

Haha, this cracked me up for some reason.

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

FYI, chances are 27% if 3-scum-team, and 36% if 4-scum-team from your point of view, assuming both you and WW are town, that there is at least one scum in Targaryen. They are reasonable, but I wouldn't say they are good enough to be worth the risk of you thinking that scum doesn't know about your power while they actually do, and keeping town in the darkness.

And of course, from the outside, the odds of scum being in Targaryen, assuming WW is town, are 50% if 3-scum-team, and 60% if 4-scum-team, which are anything but good.

What?

But you said "actively empower our house". 

I guess the issue is that the only action available is killing.

"Actively empower" could also mean actively attempting to persuade Lannister to leave their house. It doesn't mean the only available action is killing.

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

FYI, chances are 27% if 3-scum-team, and 36% if 4-scum-team from your point of view, assuming both you and WW are town, that there is at least one scum in Targaryen. They are reasonable, but I wouldn't say they are good enough to be worth the risk of you thinking that scum doesn't know about your power while they actually do, and keeping town in the darkness.

And of course, from the outside, the odds of scum being in Targaryen, assuming WW is town, are 50% if 3-scum-team, and 60% if 4-scum-team, which are anything but good.

What?

The numbers can be found with some elementary maths. But if there is anything I can explain, I will gladly do so.

My gut instinct told me those numbers were off, but I just did the math and you are correct. You rounded a bit which is what threw me (it's definitely not exactly 50%, closer to 47%, but close enough).

PPE: 2
[/quote]

Time to sleep for me, by a long shot.

Anyway, it looks like only Teproc and I are interested in discussing the setup seriously (which I find frankly disappointing, by the way), and since we basically agree that we should empower Lannister, I don't think it is strictly necessary to talk much more about it. If you disagree about our conclusion, I welcome your opinion; if it has reasons backing it up, all the better.
Once we decide who to lynch today, and before we hammer, we'll have to organize who goes where, and make sure that everybody has moved, and only then lynch. I would consider anyone hammering before we made sure that everybody has changed houses obvscum.

This is all to say that I will start scumhunting tomorrow.

Being still very new to forum mafia, I don't know the meta of anyone, really. So this ash/pacovf thing has me confused, but my instincts are telling me that they are both town. I don't agree with ash's case, but I think his forcefulness on it is protown. paco hasn't struck me as being jumpy or nervous that he's caught. I think his exasperation is normal and somewhat of a town tell.

I am also more interested in discussing set up until we have a solidified plan (exactly who is moving where so we can do what) before we get too focused on the scumhunting. I think we need to wrap up our setup plans ASAP so we can have as much time as possible to figure out who we want to lynch.

Also, if one of Ash's main points against pacovf were his seemingly excited post nature (new scum apparently get giddy and post differently), I'd like to point out that I got this exact impression by Hydrad. He seemed to be posting lots of small bursts of things, none of which were directly helpful (except his revealing of his house's power). Granted, I've never played a game with him before, and haven't had a chance to go back and read previous games he's been in. Just noting suspicion. Everyone seems so hyperfocused on this one case (ash/pacovf), it's like the rest of everyone else's posts are invisible.

• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action of a targeted Player, with him as the new target

That would actually be a very strong power, but you are missing a condition. You copy the latest night Action that targeted player has done on you. There's a world of difference in power.

This could be Lannister's empowered power, actually. Though that would be pretty strong, I think.

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

My proposal, if we do in fact lynch Hydrad are as follows:

• Ichi to Baratheon
• a Baratheon to Lannister
• a Stark to Lannister
• a Targaryen (Witherweaver?) to Lannister
• a Lannister to Stark
• 2 Lannisters to Baratheon

We still need to figure out specific people for (2), (3), (5), and (6).

This would leave us with the following:

Lannister

• 4 members
• empowered
• Joffrey on Iron Throne (strongman Hand of the King)

Stark

• 3 members
• not empowered

Targaryen

• 2 members
• not empowered

Baratheon

• 3 members
• not empowered

What that's wrong. My way had 5 in baratheon so that we would also be empowered. 1 stark would join us and one other person as you only have 12 there

Not if we lynch you. That makes 12. I could be talked into rearranging some moves if we want to empower 2 houses tonight, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk.

This actually made me think of another of question: if Baratheon does become empowered (they have to have made the king by having a majority of members, no?), do they become de-empowered if they lose the throne?

PPE: 1, looks like XP thought of the same thing.

I absolutely do not want Baratheon empowered. I still lean towards abandoning them.

Are you ok with my proposal of moves, then? It doesn't abandon Baratheon, but doesn't empower them, either. Leaves 3 people there for accountability purposes.

Though EgorK is also suspiciously non-active and he's in there.

Surely a Lannister can answer whether "passing through" is enough to qualify, but this post makes me think it does.

Lannister's EMpowerment is that the House needs to (collectively) have been sworn to the other Houses. So a former Stark/Targ, and a former Baratheon, in a 6-player House would be enough, for example.

I confirm this. Passing through is sufficient.

Not "anyone who has passed through" Baratheon will count for empowering Lannister, you need an original memeber of the house, or at least tha's how I understood it.

QTs aren't necessarily pro-scum. They generally are though.

So huh, would you be pro or anti dissolving Baratheon? Because right now, unless we empower them just to check, I think they are a liability for town, save for the extra QT. If the consensus is that QTs are pro-scum, I'm in favour of dissolving the House.

I guess we could send people there today and dissolve it tomorrow, just to have spare Baratheons for the Lannisters, but that's about it.

I should mention that our empowerment condition only requires players having been sworn to the remaining houses, not all of the original houses.

There is no way we can dissolve the houses. It gives scum way too much power with their singular night kill when town is left with nothing. I seriously believe our best bet at this point is to move around, see what sort of empowerment the house powers get, and go from there. If we truly believe that dissolving the PRs will give town an advantage, we can always do that day 2.

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

1. If the target has performed multiple actions on you, you get to choose, instead of "most recent"
2. After picking your target to copy an action from, you then get to pick the new target.

if either of that is true, it's not worth empowering lannister. they are pretty weak.

but, for all we know, it could also be

" you get a list with all abilities that have been used against any of your house in the previous night. choose any two these abilities and use them on any targets outside of your house "

which would be super strong

I don't really buy that a weak original ability implicated a weak empowered ability. for balance purposes, a contrary argument could even be made.

Well, what about the fact that my plan empowers 2 Houses instead of 1? And doesn't seem to ruin Targ empowerment down the line, as WW seems fine with the idea of Lannister dying in general.

I think the main argument against disassembling Lannister right now is that it only requires 3 moves just to see what it is. We don't know what it is, and it could be a very useful town power. The only con to doing so is that some people will lose a potential move. If we dissolve it, that's it. There's no going back.

PPE: 2

Mmm, don't like it. I mean, it's alright, but a powered up bodyguard is not much use if it doesn't have a PR to protect, and this only leaves the Targs (that we know of).

Huh? Bodyguard can protect WW, anyone who becomes a consensus town read, etc. even ignoring for possible town PRs.

I'm really hoping we didn't misread the misplay there by calling him IC. If he turns out to be scum, then wow. We are basing our entire strategy on him being IC (not that I disagree with this).

We absolutely are not basing our entire strategy around it. I'm not. Are you?

Seems to be that way. "Make sure WW is here so he can do this and that, and let's bodyguard him so he stays alive, etc." I'm not saying I don't think he's an IC, I was just expressing my thoughts that dang I really hope we read that right.

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

I like where this is going.

I do not. I think this is town ash.

The only person who may be able to convince me otherwise is Robz, because he's really good at reading ash based off his play, but we don't have Robz here. Except I think Robz also thinks this is twon ash.

We could always do it the other way around, lynch paco. If he flips town, we lynch ash D2.

Worst idea ever, as I currently think odds are highest they are both town.

I don't think it's the worst idea, but ok. I actually have town reads on both as well, but I don't feel like we'll be able to go forward until ash stops his train of an attempted case, and he seems to be pretty stubborn about not budging so I was offering an alternative.

Also, when did we come to the consensus that we're dissolving Lannister? I still don't see why Voltaire's plan is any better than mine.

PPE 3

Kinda.

@Azadin, silverspawn and pingpongsam: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Baratheon. Now. Post when you've done so.
@Ichimaru Gin: send a PM to Faust asking to move to House Stark. Now. Post when you've done so.

IG has to wait until we know who we're lynching. This is getting out of control. Everyone take a step back, breathe, and let's think.

Now bolded for convenience and ease of view:

AZADIN, SILVERSPAWN AND PINGPONGSAM: SEND A PM TO FAUST ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE BARATHEON. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO

ICHIMARU GIN: SEND A PM TO FAUT ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE STARK. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO.

Better.

since when are you leading? >_<

ww, can you confirm?

If we're following Voltaire's plan, he also stated the exact same instructions. Let me find the post....

I have moved myself to Baratheon.

Teproc, love the new sig:

PPE: a decent amount

so, there are a lot of posts saying, "I'll read in XXX". these are null I think. There is the post where he proposes his plan which we end up not doing. He defends it for a reasonable amount of time, then gives up on it. there are a few posts commenting current stuff/problems, which all seem more or less sincere. A pretty good content/post ratio.

town points for these I think:

I should mention that our empowerment condition only requires players having been sworn to the remaining houses, not all of the original houses.

    Being still very new to forum mafia, I don't know the meta of anyone, really. So this ash/pacovf thing has me confused, but my instincts are telling me that they are both town. I don't agree with ash's case, but I think his forcefulness on it is protown. paco hasn't struck me as being jumpy or nervous that he's caught. I think his exasperation is normal and somewhat of a town tell.

    I am also more interested in discussing set up until we have a solidified plan (exactly who is moving where so we can do what) before we get too focused on the scumhunting. I think we need to wrap up our setup plans ASAP so we can have as much time as possible to figure out who we want to lynch.

given that he also said he's relatively new, I'm definitely not voting for him.

[Hydrad]

Teproc, love the new sig:

PPE: a decent amount

woo I made it into a sig!

But seriously I was reading this game a page behind for a while as every time i clicked to read the final page another page would appear. Its been going really fast.

[Voltaire]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

[pacovf]

town points for these I think:

I should mention that our empowerment condition only requires players having been sworn to the remaining houses, not all of the original houses.

Why? Why town points for pointing out the setup?

given that he also said he's relatively new, I'm definitely not voting for him.

Ooh ooh do I get freebies too?

[silverspawn]

town points for these I think:
given that he also said he's relatively new, I'm definitely not voting for him.

Ooh ooh do I get freebies too?

his posts strike me as very towny without really any suspicious parts. that's either a town, or a scum who plays really well. he's new, so it's probably the former. just being new isn't worth anything by itself.

so, no  ;)

[pacovf]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

Hmmm, even with the "let's random lynch a lurker"?

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, I am officially disappointed that my RMM has fewer posts than this, with 4 days fewer too.

I like Azadin's plan better, but it looks like I'm too late for the discussion? Hiding a powerful PR behind a really weak one seems like the sort of thing that an interesting setup would have.

PPE: I also agree Azadin looks pretty towny to me.

PPE: Well, not many people are actoming scummy, and we don't have much time left..

[Teproc]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

Hmmm, even with the "let's random lynch a lurker"?

That's a more popular idea that you might think.

Speaking of which, where is Robz ?

[XerxesPraelor]

One other thing: I think that if one person becomes a consensus town read, it would be okay for Targ to accept them. Right, robz +ww?

[pacovf]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

Hmmm, even with the "let's random lynch a lurker"?

That's a more popular idea that you might think.

Speaking of which, where is Robz ?

Arranging his marriage.

I like Azadin's plan better, but it looks like I'm too late for the discussion? Hiding a powerful PR behind a really weak one seems like the sort of thing that an interesting setup would have.

Eh, I think going back to setup discussion now is bad. We have been putting off the scumhunting too much already.

[Voltaire]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

Hmmm, even with the "let's random lynch a lurker"?

Yep. Terrible idea, don't think it's terribly likely scum says that in that manner.

[Voltaire]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

Hmmm, even with the "let's random lynch a lurker"?

Yep. Terrible idea, don't think it's terribly likely scum says that in that manner.

I mean terrible idea for EgorK specifically. Lynching lurkers is good.

[XerxesPraelor]

Why specifically EgorK?

[pacovf]

Why specifically EgorK?

[Ichimaru Gin]

2. JON SNOW, RETURN TO WINTERFELL (join Stark)

ICHIMARU GIN: SEND A PM TO FAUT ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE STARK. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO.

Ok. I take it I should move to House Stark immediately then?

[pacovf]

Yes. The original plan was to have you wait to plug holes, but since Ash has stated his intention to leave Stark, we just ask you to go to Stark now, that way there aren't any surprises as the day ends.

You can wait for Voltaire's or WW's confirmation if that makes you/anybody else more comfortable.

[XerxesPraelor]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

[pacovf]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

And Robz? I think Robz has lurked about as much as PPS has. Would Robz be fine too?

[Hydrad]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

And Robz? I think Robz has lurked about as much as PPS has. Would Robz be fine too?

I'm guessing he thinks robz is okish since hes not sharing the tar secret. So that means that he trusts him.

[Robz888]

Town-ish read on XP for behavior after his return.

Hmmm, even with the "let's random lynch a lurker"?

That's a more popular idea that you might think.

Speaking of which, where is Robz ?

Here, though, quite busy these days. I've been putting a passable amount of effort into this game, though. I don't have a lot of grand thoughts about setup plans and House matters. These things are not my specialty.

[Voltaire]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

This is where it's at.

[Voltaire]

2. JON SNOW, RETURN TO WINTERFELL (join Stark)

ICHIMARU GIN: SEND A PM TO FAUT ASKING TO MOVE TO HOUSE STARK. NOW. POST HERE ONCE YOU'VE DONE SO.

Ok. I take it I should move to House Stark immediately then?

Yes please!

[Ichimaru Gin]

Done.

[Voltaire]

Sweet. I think we're only missing PPS (and myself) going to Baratheon, correct?

[pacovf]

Correct.

[XerxesPraelor]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

This is where it's at.

Again, why?

[Voltaire]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

This is where it's at.

Again, why?

I've already laid out why. What didn't you like about my case?

[Witherweaver]

One other thing: I think that if one person becomes a consensus town read, it would be okay for Targ to accept them. Right, robz +ww?

Answered in QT.

[Witherweaver]

I'm tempted to full claim and get killed or ask for a replacement.

Stark empowered might be a doctor, so... full claiming might not be so bad.

As for the replacement, what ? Since when do you replace out because no one listens to you ?

Since it's been every game for a long, long time.  There was a time when people thought I was pretty good at this.  If I'm past my prime, I don't want to be that guy who should have retired two seasons ago but keeps dragging his team down Jeter-style.

For the record, I went along with you on Pacman because I trust your reads.  (And because I wanted to see how it would play out with more pressure on him.)

[pingpongsam]

Why should I move if we are lynching me? I mean I can move but lynching me saves me the trouble, right?

[Hydrad]

Why should I move if we are lynching me? I mean I can move but lynching me saves me the trouble, right?

well i guess one thing is that if you do refues to move you will probably get lynched... but i don't really think your that close to being lynched at all right now.

[Hydrad]

but just saying that felt like a weird post and i don't really know what to think of it.

[Witherweaver]

Why should I move if we are lynching me? I mean I can move but lynching me saves me the trouble, right?

Is it any trouble?

[pingpongsam]

I was never clear on what I do. Do I send Faust a pm? Can I do it from my house qt. I kind of figured no one likes playing with a frothing at the mouth PPS anyhow and my lynch will be useful and seemed to be getting steam so I was getting lynched and divested myself of trying to commit much more of my time to the game. I'll be happy to move if someone describes how to perform it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I was never clear on what I do. Do I send Faust a pm? Can I do it from my house qt. I kind of figured no one likes playing with a frothing at the mouth PPS anyhow and my lynch will be useful and seemed to be getting steam so I was getting lynched and divested myself of trying to commit much more of my time to the game. I'll be happy to move if someone describes how to perform it.

I asked faust and you can send him a PM or post in the mafia qt. (near-exact quote from in-thread).

For the record, I'm not all that sold on your lynch, and I don't find your play any more "frothing" or distasteful than anyone else's. I'd rather lynch XP or Egork atm.

[pingpongsam]

I sent Faust a pm requesting to be sent to house baratheon. Hopefully that works because I have to get some sleep now.

[Voltaire]

I was never clear on what I do. Do I send Faust a pm? Can I do it from my house qt. I kind of figured no one likes playing with a frothing at the mouth PPS anyhow and my lynch will be useful and seemed to be getting steam so I was getting lynched and divested myself of trying to commit much more of my time to the game. I'll be happy to move if someone describes how to perform it.

This is describing a plausible alternate universe that nonetheless never happened, and I find you scummy for it.

[Voltaire]

I sent Faust a pm requesting to be sent to house baratheon. Hopefully that works because I have to get some sleep now.

Thank you, that's all you had to do. If you're town, and we don't lynch you, this is excellent news.

[Voltaire]

silverspawn - town style
pacovf - the sense
ashersky - the nonsense
Hydrad - wagon too easy
Witherweaver - IC*ish
Teproc - the sense
XerxesPraelor - town reply to pressure (?)
EgorK - lurking too much
Robz888 - eh? Maybe actually more of a null.
Ichimaru Gin
pingpongsam
azadin - town approach
Voltaire - me

A sanity check reveals my lynch pool has turned into this. Fun fact, I've made a mistake somewhere. Unless the team is PPS/IG/Robz. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Wow. That is a pretty insane D1 pool!

Bah. It's pretty late and I should go to bed. But one more post, since I got a lot of homework done and have a few minutes.

Some light reads on everyone

silverspawn: I liked that he didn't jump on the Hydrad wagon, so slight town points for that.

pacovf: Mmm. Hard to tell. Definitely been active, defending himself against a lot of strong accusation from Ash.

ashersky: daaaamn. I can never read Ash that well. I feel more town here, but I can't recall scum!ash although I'm sure I played with him.

Hydrad: I actually feel pretty townie on Hydrad. I feel like he's gotten some flack for some inconsequential stuff. I don't know, I like his participation and I don't really see the accusations about low content--I mean there will always be some empty posts from everyone.

Witherweaver: Hmm. I was his scumbud in the last game I recall with him. I really have no idea here though. I don't think he's an IC though. (So I guess I agree with ash there).

Teproc: nullish. I feel like he's been good at trying to keep things on track.

XerxesPraelor: I find his Hydrad vote very opportunnistic and mentally flagged the post at the time, planning to respond to it later.

EgorK: What 2 posts? Null.

Robz888: Really hard to read Robz.

Ichimaru Gin: obv town. Michigan is back!!

pingpongsam: Seems resigned to being lynched with few votes on him. Kind of scummy in that regard.

azadin: Nullish. Seems like he's paying attention, so slight town.

Voltaire: I felt very bad about scum!Voltaire in Dice Mafia. I don't really get that feeling here. Not sure if that's the best logic, but it's what I got.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And a horrible thought just occurred to me. What if scum has some PR that targets people who are changing houses--like a highwaymen or something?

I don't know, just with all these people moving and general agreement with it, I wonder if there isn't a higher price for it.

Anyway, going to bed now. Be back in my AM. ~10 hours

[faust]

@Mod: How do House powers work? Do we send our action by PM or by posting them on the QT?

House powers are controlled by PM.

[faust]

What happens if two Houses are tied for largest? Who gets Hand of the King? Who makes the King?

The House of the previous king remains in power until another House gets more members. Should two new Houses be tied, the House that has the more loyal members (i.e. the average time a player has been in the House is the longest) will make the king. Should there be a tie in this as well, the king is decided randomly.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.5

pacovf (2): ashersky, Robz888
EgorK (2): silverspawn, XerxesPraelor
Hydrad (2): pacovf, azadin
pingpongsam (4): Teproc, pingpongsam, Voltaire, Witherweaver
XerxesPraelor (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (2): EgorK, Ichimaru Gin

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[pacovf]

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

This is where it's at.

Again, why?

I've already laid out why. What didn't you like about my case?

Mmm, can you restate your case anyway? Yesterday went very very fast (17 pages!?), it's normal for stuff to get lost in the confusion.

my lynch will be useful

How is your lynch useful?

and seemed to be getting steam so I was getting lynched

When did your case get steam? You self-voted with a single vote on yourself (Teproc) and very mild hostility from Voltaire ("I can lynch PPS, I think maybe", or something like that). Now XP says that he can maybe vote for yourself instead of EgorK because of lurking, while recognizing he is not the best person to do that kind of accusations.

[pacovf]

Not sure about all these people giving town points to silverspawn. I do like his general approach to the game and some of them give a town vibe, but the "my top priority is to appear towny" and the way he approached/pushed EgorK don't sit too well for me. He's quite null in my opinion.

Also, meh. When rereading silverspawn I noticed that Ash had breadcrumbed pretty early that he had a PR. Don't know what to think of that, but I don't want to lynch him today anymore.

On Hydrad and XP: I agree that the case on Hydrad is not the best evah, but this is D1 afterall. His case on XP is actually better, but unfortunately I had, and still have after his latest posts, a townread on XP.

And someone explain to me this sort of reasoning:

silverspawn: I liked that he didn't jump on the Hydrad wagon, so slight town points for that.

Hydrad - wagon too easy

The first only works if Hydrad is truly town, and even then you cannot expect all scum to jump on a wagon, especially when it stalls.
The second is completely null. If the wagon is easy, you don't vote for Hydrad, but you don't give him town points either. Giving him town points because an easy wagon springs on him only works if it is scum pushing the wagon. And Voltaire, you have said that you have townreads on all 3 people on the wagon (me, XP, Azadin), so Hydrad should be null, right?

I might be busy these next few days, don't know yet. However, I'll be away from Sunday to Wednesday (that might include most of N1), and might not be able to log in here at all then. Just as a warning.

[pacovf]

and seemed to be getting steam so I was getting lynched

When did your case get steam? You self-voted with a single vote on yourself (Teproc) and very mild hostility from Voltaire ("I can lynch PPS, I think maybe", or something like that). Now XP says that he can maybe vote for yourself instead of EgorK because of lurking, while recognizing he is not the best person to do that kind of accusations.

Didn't notice that WW had moved his vote before that comment of yours, but still.

And on the subject of WW: he's not a real IC, of course, but I think it would be irresponsible to put him in the lynchpool today. I am definitely not lynching him before, say, D4 or something, unless really weird stuff starts happening.

[silverspawn]

Not sure about all these people giving town points to silverspawn. I do like his general approach to the game and some of them give a town vibe, but the "my top priority is to appear towny" and the way he approached/pushed EgorK don't sit too well for me. He's quite null in my opinion.

if every town manages to be towny enough not to be lynched, we win by the end of day 3.

[pacovf]

Not sure about all these people giving town points to silverspawn. I do like his general approach to the game and some of them give a town vibe, but the "my top priority is to appear towny" and the way he approached/pushed EgorK don't sit too well for me. He's quite null in my opinion.

if every town manages to be towny enough not to be lynched, we win by the end of day 3.

If every town and every scum manages to be towny enough to not be lynched, we will lose by the end of day whatever.

Why are you assuming that there's only 3 scum, silver? This is the second time you do so.

[silverspawn]

I mean, maybe I should say something like "my top priority is to hunt down scum," but well that's not true. I've said it before, the most important thing in mafia is not to be lynched, that goes for scum and town.

Think about it, I'm a fairly new player. It would be arrogant and probably foolish for myself to place too much trust into my reads. Yea, I might detect something useful, but I might also misread a town for scum (as it has happened before). But if you  lynch me, that's just awful, a mislynch on a town usually results in two dead towns. so, even if you find it scummy, I think the fact that surviving is more important for me than scumhunting is pretty clearly true.

[pacovf]

But it isn't. As long as at least one scum survives, scum wins. This isn't true for town. Your top priority should be to find scum, and your second priority should be to look towny.

[silverspawn]

Why are you assuming that there's only 3 scum, silver? This is the second time you do so

4 scum means a 9/4 ratio, that seems pretty impossible. 2 scums mean a 11/2 ratio, that seems almost as impossible. 3 scum means 10/3, that seems reasonable. it's not impossible that there are 2 factions, but several people have already said that it's unlikely

although being self aware has brought me trouble before, i'll say that I thought about whether or not I should write "assuming 3 scum" both times, because people might think it's suspicious if I just assume. Last time I think I did it. This time, I didn't.

[silverspawn]

But it isn't. As long as at least one scum survives, scum wins. This isn't true for town. Your top priority should be to find scum, and your second priority should be to look towny.

we probably won't agree here. But man, that's a purely theoretical discussion with almost no relevance for the game. I'm trying to do both. But if there is a situation like with EgorK, where I have the choice to be honest or to make something up and maybe have a 1/20 chance more to make him post something, I'll rather be honest.

On a sidenote, I don't see why saying this makes me likely to be scum at all. Wouldn't scum!me be more careful to say these things than town!me?

[silverspawn]

If every town and every scum manages to be towny enough to not be lynched, we will lose by the end of day whatever.

hence this post

the thing about mafia is, although scum and town play is different, the most important (?) goal of both is the same: look towny. you absolutely want to look towny as town, and you absolutely want to look towny as scum. if we think ash is town now, it is, in a way, good play from him, and the fact that I have a strong townread on Teproc aswell is also good. Whether or not what he is saying makes sense might be debatable, but, unless one of them is actually scum, what he did was beneficial for town.

the fact that scum has to try this too doesn't make it any less true, really. well, for scum there are probably situations where they have to be dishonest, because otherwise they can never be vote for someone. but on the hole, being towny is just extremely important for any faction.

[Teproc]

Just for the record, I agree with silverspawn. The first job of a townie is to not be mislynched.

This whole conversation is actually giving me a strong town read on silverspawn, so that's someting.

@PPS : Stop with the AtE already. It's annoying, and just makes playing the game less fun for everyone.

[pacovf]

Why are you assuming that there's only 3 scum, silver? This is the second time you do so

4 scum means a 9/4 ratio, that seems pretty impossible. 2 scums mean a 11/2 ratio, that seems almost as impossible. 3 scum means 10/3, that seems reasonable. it's not impossible that there are 2 factions, but several people have already said that it's unlikely

although being self aware has brought me trouble before, i'll say that I thought about whether or not I should write "assuming 3 scum" both times, because people might think it's suspicious if I just assume. Last time I think I did it. This time, I didn't.

Well, 4 scum might be quite a skewed ratio, but we don't know if the setup is otherwise pro-town or anti-town, so it's definitely not impossible. The house system gives information to town, for example.

Agree that 2 scum seems quite improbable.

But it isn't. As long as at least one scum survives, scum wins. This isn't true for town. Your top priority should be to find scum, and your second priority should be to look towny.

we probably won't agree here. But man, that's a purely theoretical discussion with almost no relevance for the game. I'm trying to do both. But if there is a situation like with EgorK, where I have the choice to be honest or to make something up and maybe have a 1/20 chance more to make him post something, I'll rather be honest.

On a sidenote, I don't see why saying this makes me likely to be scum at all. Wouldn't scum!me be more careful to say these things than town!me?

The things I take issue with were said when pushed by Teproc, and you yourself have said that you try to be spontaneous, in this game and in others. I think you would try to emulate that as scum.

It's definitely relevant that your professed strategy implies avoiding the lynch as much as possible. It is a possible approach to the game as town, so I don't think much of it, but still, it worries me.


PPE: it is important for both factions, but not in the same way. Just appearing towny is not enough for town, while it is enough for day-play for scum.

PPE 1

[Witherweaver]

silverspawn - town style
pacovf - the sense
ashersky - the nonsense
Hydrad - wagon too easy
Witherweaver - IC*ish
Teproc - the sense
XerxesPraelor - town reply to pressure (?)
EgorK - lurking too much
Robz888 - eh? Maybe actually more of a null.
Ichimaru Gin
pingpongsam
azadin - town approach
Voltaire - me

A sanity check reveals my lynch pool has turned into this. Fun fact, I've made a mistake somewhere. Unless the team is PPS/IG/Robz. 

My personal opinion is that the extra setup mechanics of this game makes it easy for everyone to seem sensible, townie, and helpful, and there's a decent chance that scum is eliminated from the pool on that alone.  Or that you're scum

[Witherweaver]

I mean, maybe I should say something like "my top priority is to hunt down scum," but well that's not true. I've said it before, the most important thing in mafia is not to be lynched, that goes for scum and town.

Think about it, I'm a fairly new player. It would be arrogant and probably foolish for myself to place too much trust into my reads. Yea, I might detect something useful, but I might also misread a town for scum (as it has happened before). But if you  lynch me, that's just awful, a mislynch on a town usually results in two dead towns. so, even if you find it scummy, I think the fact that surviving is more important for me than scumhunting is pretty clearly true.

This seems off to me.  You strike me as someone who is going to be pretty confident, despite your newness.

[Voltaire]

I went ahead and sent in my move order, fyi.

[Voltaire]

And Voltaire, you have said that you have townreads on all 3 people on the wagon (me, XP, Azadin), so Hydrad should be null, right?

Was that really the extent of the wagon? Thank you, that's the first of what I am sure are many mistakes in my reads reasoning.

[pingpongsam]

Look, I am on vacation with my family with a baby for the first time. That's no excuse but it does explain the difference in my usual play where I am pretty much present all day long.

My perception of how this went is that I pointed out Voltaire seemed the scummiest early game.  Voltaire eventually voted me for it. I was just about to solidify my case with a vote on him when I saw this. I decided that me flipping town showed him to be the scum he is so I joined his wagon on me and then so did teproc. Form that point on I kept seeing everyone favorably lean towards my lynch because no other obvious lynch has surfaced. Pretty sure teproc is town. Realize self voting is generally bad town punishable by lynch and leads to a worthless wagon. Believe in LALL.

Vote: egork

I still think Voltaire is possibly scum but a lot of his play yesterday does look quite towny.

[Voltaire]

My personal opinion is that the extra setup mechanics of this game makes it easy for everyone to seem sensible, townie, and helpful, and there's a decent chance that scum is eliminated from the pool on that alone.  Or that you're scum

See I was hoping I wasn't given town points for theory stuff but apparently it creeped in there. No need to worry about me being scum, btw.

[Voltaire]

*giving

[Witherweaver]

Look, I am on vacation with my family with a baby for the first time. That's no excuse but it does explain the difference in my usual play where I am pretty much present all day long.

My perception of how this went is that I pointed out Voltaire seemed the scummiest early game.  Voltaire eventually voted me for it. I was just about to solidify my case with a vote on him when I saw this. I decided that me flipping town showed him to be the scum he is so I joined his wagon on me and then so did teproc. Form that point on I kept seeing everyone favorably lean towards my lynch because no other obvious lynch has surfaced. Pretty sure teproc is town. Realize self voting is generally bad town punishable by lynch and leads to a worthless wagon. Believe in LALL.

Vote: egork

I still think Voltaire is possibly scum but a lot of his play yesterday does look quite towny.

Who does your baby think is scum?  Children are quite intuitive.

[Witherweaver]

Look, I am on vacation with my family with a baby for the first time. That's no excuse but it does explain the difference in my usual play where I am pretty much present all day long.

My perception of how this went is that I pointed out Voltaire seemed the scummiest early game.  Voltaire eventually voted me for it. I was just about to solidify my case with a vote on him when I saw this. I decided that me flipping town showed him to be the scum he is so I joined his wagon on me and then so did teproc. Form that point on I kept seeing everyone favorably lean towards my lynch because no other obvious lynch has surfaced. Pretty sure teproc is town. Realize self voting is generally bad town punishable by lynch and leads to a worthless wagon. Believe in LALL.

Vote: egork

I still think Voltaire is possibly scum but a lot of his play yesterday does look quite towny.

I don't really see the Voltaire scumminess early, except perhaps some buddying.  What did you find so scummy?

[Teproc]

NO one should be given town points just for helping with theory. You can get reads off of the way people have participated in the theory conversation, but just being helpful does not mean being townie, it's very easy for scum to blend in theory talk, which is why I'm usually against it.

The problem with lynching EgorK is that it's a lynch that's impossible to analyze later if he flips town. No one will be held accountable for their votes because it's hard to argue with "random lurker lynch".

[Witherweaver]

NO one should be given town points just for helping with theory. You can get reads off of the way people have participated in the theory conversation, but just being helpful does not mean being townie, it's very easy for scum to blend in theory talk, which is why I'm usually against it.

The problem with lynching EgorK is that it's a lynch that's impossible to analyze later if he flips town. No one will be held accountable for their votes because it's hard to argue with "random lurker lynch".

EgorK is pretty consistent at not being active.  I'd agree that he's not a great lynch.  On the other hand, sometimes "start participating or we'll lynch you" is good motivation.

[pingpongsam]

NO one should be given town points just for helping with theory. You can get reads off of the way people have participated in the theory conversation, but just being helpful does not mean being townie, it's very easy for scum to blend in theory talk, which is why I'm usually against it.

The problem with lynching EgorK is that it's a lynch that's impossible to analyze later if he flips town. No one will be held accountable for their votes because it's hard to argue with "random lurker lynch".

The argument against LALL holds true all game as does the reality that having such a lurker all game leaves this nagging question in everyone's minds. In my experience LALL nails scum half the time so it is a worthwhile tactic. Regardless of flip we get a better long term game.

[pingpongsam]

Look, I am on vacation with my family with a baby for the first time. That's no excuse but it does explain the difference in my usual play where I am pretty much present all day long.

My perception of how this went is that I pointed out Voltaire seemed the scummiest early game.  Voltaire eventually voted me for it. I was just about to solidify my case with a vote on him when I saw this. I decided that me flipping town showed him to be the scum he is so I joined his wagon on me and then so did teproc. Form that point on I kept seeing everyone favorably lean towards my lynch because no other obvious lynch has surfaced. Pretty sure teproc is town. Realize self voting is generally bad town punishable by lynch and leads to a worthless wagon. Believe in LALL.

Vote: egork

I still think Voltaire is possibly scum but a lot of his play yesterday does look quite towny.

I don't really see the Voltaire scumminess early, except perhaps some buddying.  What did you find so scummy?

Voltaire, until yesterday, was almost strictly opportunistically seeking where a wagon could be found without having to make a case he would have to answer for later. My self vote was intended to force him to have to answer later. I am less sure today that he is the bad guy, though.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, I see what you're saying.

[silverspawn]

This seems off to me.  You strike me as someone who is going to be pretty confident, despite your newness.

i can't reference other games but, if I could, I would do it now. ~]

I'm confident in a lot of things, but atm I don't think I'm so good at reading people.

[pacovf]

This seems off to me.  You strike me as someone who is going to be pretty confident, despite your newness.

i can't reference other games but, if I could, I would do it now. ~]

I'm confident in a lot of things, but atm I don't think I'm so good at reading people.

Well, if you never build cases on people, and if you never vote, we are going to have a hard time checking whether you are town or not. Flips and wagons are the strongest indicators of alignment, right?

[silverspawn]

Well, if you never build cases on people, and if you never vote, we are going to have a hard time checking whether you are town or not. Flips and wagons are the strongest indicators of alignment, right?

where is this post coming from? I never said i'm not going to make cases on people. In fact, I already made a reread on someone and posted my opinion, but I turned out to have a town read on him as a result, and I plan to make more rereads on other people. my approach is, pick a target more or less random, reread him, if he is scummy, make a case.

 To clarify this completely: I said that
-> I am not overly confident in my reads
-> It is more important for me not to be mislynched than to push cases

and that's all. I never said making cases is not important or that I'm not going to do it, all I said is that it's not quite as important as being honest and having a transparent image. this is a fact of minor importance that is only relevant in very few cases, and it doesn't even deserve or require much discussion, but for some reason you keep bringing it up.

[Voltaire]

The argument against LALL holds true all game as does the reality that having such a lurker all game leaves this nagging question in everyone's minds. In my experience LALL nails scum half the time so it is a worthwhile tactic. Regardless of flip we get a better long term game.

True fact.

[silverspawn]

The argument against LALL holds true all game as does the reality that having such a lurker all game leaves this nagging question in everyone's minds. In my experience LALL nails scum half the time so it is a worthwhile tactic. Regardless of flip we get a better long term game.

True fact.

yea, totally.

... what does lall mean?

[Teproc]

Lynch All Lurkers, Literally

[Voltaire]

request prod on EgorK

[faust]

request prod on EgorK

Prod sent.

[EgorK]

Checking in. Still catching up, you are to fast for me

[Robz888]

Checking in. Still catching up, you are to fast for me

Just skim, it's A LOT of setup talk.

[pingpongsam]

Lynch All Lurkers, Literally

I thought it was lynch all lurkers and liars.

[Voltaire]

Lynch All Lurkers, Literally

I thought it was lynch all lurkers and liars.

LAL can also be Lynch All Liars.

[Voltaire]

Checking in. Still catching up, you are to fast for me

Just skim, it's A LOT of setup talk.

Robz, any reads/non-setup thoughts?

[Witherweaver]

Pretty sure it's Lick all Lollipops.

[pacovf]

Well, if you never build cases on people, and if you never vote, we are going to have a hard time checking whether you are town or not. Flips and wagons are the strongest indicators of alignment, right?

where is this post coming from? I never said i'm not going to make cases on people. In fact, I already made a reread on someone and posted my opinion, but I turned out to have a town read on him as a result, and I plan to make more rereads on other people. my approach is, pick a target more or less random, reread him, if he is scummy, make a case.

 To clarify this completely: I said that
-> I am not overly confident in my reads
-> It is more important for me not to be mislynched than to push cases

and that's all. I never said making cases is not important or that I'm not going to do it, all I said is that it's not quite as important as being honest and having a transparent image. this is a fact of minor importance that is only relevant in very few cases, and it doesn't even deserve or require much discussion, but for some reason you keep bringing it up.

Sorry if I was unclear. I was trying to incite you to be a bit more pushy when you vote for someone. Even if you are not overly confident on your reads, we want to hear them! I don't think you have done much scumhunting yet, but if you say that is going to change, I'll shut up.

Checking in. Still catching up, you are to fast for me

Just skim, it's A LOT of setup talk.

Setup is behind us for D1. 3 days to the deadline, and we have to catch scum. Do you want to share your opinions?

PPE 3

[pacovf]

I find interesting that we've got 3 wagons that reached 3 votes and then stalled. The case on Pingpongsam and me (pacovf) reached that amount of votes slowly, while the wagon on Hydrad reached 3 votes really quickly and has been stalling since then.

I find it unlikely that we've lucked into 3 scum (especially since I am not scum myself), so this seems to indicate that scum is playing very cautiously here: either they are not voting (if we have to believe the townreads on some of the wagons), or they are loathe to have more than one scum in the same wagon. Otherwise, we would surely have reached 4 votes in at least one wagon, right?

[silverspawn]

pacov, would you mind quoting all of your posts from your QT?

[pacovf]

I would rather not quote all of them.

[Teproc]

I find the idea that scum pushes a wagon collectively to be a myth, especially on day 1. So I'm not reading much into the wagons "stalling", if we can even say that yet.

[pacovf]

How many scum do you expect to find on the wagon of a D1 mislynch, Teproc?

[Teproc]

How many scum do you expect to find on the wagon of a D1 mislynch, Teproc?

Depends on the kingdom.

I know it's a non-answer, but that's what it is.

[silverspawn]

I would rather not quote all of them.

that's quite a scummy answer

[Teproc]

I would rather not quote all of them.

that's quite a scummy answer

I agree with pacovf here. The post I quoted way back was the most relevant to ash's case, and I suppose he could also quote the joke, but overall there was some discussion that might be best left in the QT for various reasons.

[pacovf]

pacov, would you mind quoting all of your posts from your QT?

I guess you are reading Ash case on me, because you mentioned that you weren't convinced that it was bad. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be wise to share the QT discussion, so you will just have to choose whether you want to trust Ash, Teproc, or me, about what happened in there.

I will share the joke, because there's no reason not no (other than my personal opinion that jokes don't reveal alignment):

Sorry Ash is too busy chatting on the scum quicktopic

PPE 2

[Witherweaver]

I find Silver asking for this a little suspect. 

[silverspawn]

I find Silver asking for this a little suspect. 

I already said that I'm not so sure ash's case is bad (as pacovf mentioned). I think asking to reveal all points of suspicion is pretty legit.

Unfortunately, I don't think it would be wise to share the QT discussion, so you will just have to choose whether you want to trust Ash, Teproc, or me, about what happened in there.

why not, teproc already posted a part of it without even asking you, and there might be scum in your QT. I feel like you think that continuing to ask this is scummy, and that's why I'd stop.

[Voltaire]

My "if there's scum in my QT" read has shifted from PPS to silver, and it's not entirely due to silver's recent posts. More PPS's. I think I'd lynch either, in addition to IG. But man, I need to re-read. Then I'll have a final lynch pool and will hop my vote around to the biggest wagon, barring amazing cases coming up.

[pacovf]

Unfortunately, I don't think it would be wise to share the QT discussion, so you will just have to choose whether you want to trust Ash, Teproc, or me, about what happened in there.

why not, teproc already posted a part of it without even asking you, and there might be scum in your QT. I feel like you think that continuing to ask this is scummy, and that's why I'd stop.

No, feel free to keep asking this, but it was pointed out in the QT that sharing the discussion would be a bad idea. Otherwise I would have shared all the discussion right after Teproc quoted that post of mine.

This, by the way, is the main reason why I am annoyed by Ashersky's case.

[silverspawn]

My "if there's scum in my QT" read has shifted from PPS to silver, and it's not entirely due to silver's recent posts. More PPS's. I think I'd lynch either, in addition to IG. But man, I need to re-read. Then I'll have a final lynch pool and will hop my vote around to the biggest wagon, barring amazing cases coming up.

what? I haven't posted a single thing in the QT except the "byebye" post after requesting a house switch.

[Ichimaru Gin]

My "if there's scum in my QT" read has shifted from PPS to silver, and it's not entirely due to silver's recent posts. More PPS's. I think I'd lynch either, in addition to IG. But man, I need to re-read. Then I'll have a final lynch pool and will hop my vote around to the biggest wagon, barring amazing cases coming up.

This post is starting to raise my hackles a bit. You haven't provided an ounce of reads on me this entire game, and now seem to be preparing for a mislynch. This also makes me feel townier on silver--although he was starting to make me nervous.

Seriously though, I don't find that town!Voltaire acts this way towards me. This is much more like how you tried to kill me in dice mafia.

[Voltaire]

My "if there's scum in my QT" read has shifted from PPS to silver, and it's not entirely due to silver's recent posts. More PPS's. I think I'd lynch either, in addition to IG. But man, I need to re-read. Then I'll have a final lynch pool and will hop my vote around to the biggest wagon, barring amazing cases coming up.

what? I haven't posted a single thing in the QT except the "byebye" post after requesting a house switch.

I'm not talking about our QT, I'm talking about the thread.

[Robz888]

Checking in. Still catching up, you are to fast for me

Just skim, it's A LOT of setup talk.

Robz, any reads/non-setup thoughts?

Not really! My only strong read is WW (town), and that's not even a read. There are a lot of people in this game, it feels like.

[pacovf]

There are a lot of people in this game, it feels like.

...What?

[silverspawn]

My "if there's scum in my QT" read has shifted from PPS to silver, and it's not entirely due to silver's recent posts. More PPS's. I think I'd lynch either, in addition to IG. But man, I need to re-read. Then I'll have a final lynch pool and will hop my vote around to the biggest wagon, barring amazing cases coming up.

what? I haven't posted a single thing in the QT except the "byebye" post after requesting a house switch.

I'm not talking about our QT, I'm talking about the thread.

fair enough, and do you have a reason for that? a few pages ago you had a town read on me.

[Voltaire]

Fun fact: I (nor any town player) do not have perfect reads. However, I am going to participate in trying to lynch scum today. Ergo, I will at times advocate for the lynching of town. It is not helpful if, every time I say I'd like to vote someone, you go "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  ". I find OMGUS fairly townie but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying and can be used as cover by scum.

Seriously, every time I've voted someone this game they've responded by being pissed off (except EgorK, who isn't really here) and stating they have a growing scum read on me.

Fix my reads, people, if you think (or know, if it's against you!) they're wrong.

[silverspawn]

well I wanted to reread XP next, but now it almost feels like I'm doing it to defend myself

[Ichimaru Gin]

Fun fact: I (nor any town player) do not have perfect reads. However, I am going to participate in trying to lynch scum today. Ergo, I will at times advocate for the lynching of town. It is not helpful if, every time I say I'd like to vote someone, you go "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  ". I find OMGUS fairly townie but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying and can be used as cover by scum.

Seriously, every time I've voted someone this game they've responded by being pissed off (except EgorK, who isn't really here) and stating they have a growing scum read on me.

Fix my reads, people, if you think (or know, if it's against you!) they're wrong.

I just wish you'd say something more than, "I could lynch IG today"

Why?

[Witherweaver]

well I wanted to reread XP next, but now it almost feels like I'm doing it to defend myself

You seem to be feeling a lot of pressure for having no (?) votes on you.

[Witherweaver]

Fun fact: I (nor any town player) do not have perfect reads. However, I am going to participate in trying to lynch scum today. Ergo, I will at times advocate for the lynching of town. It is not helpful if, every time I say I'd like to vote someone, you go "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  ". I find OMGUS fairly townie but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying and can be used as cover by scum.

Seriously, every time I've voted someone this game they've responded by being pissed off (except EgorK, who isn't really here) and stating they have a growing scum read on me.

Fix my reads, people, if you think (or know, if it's against you!) they're wrong.

I just wish you'd say something more than, "I could lynch IG today"

Why?

I was actually curious about this too.  It may just be from PoE, though.

[silverspawn]

Fun fact: I (nor any town player) do not have perfect reads. However, I am going to participate in trying to lynch scum today. Ergo, I will at times advocate for the lynching of town. It is not helpful if, every time I say I'd like to vote someone, you go "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  ". I find OMGUS fairly townie but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying and can be used as cover by scum.

Seriously, every time I've voted someone this game they've responded by being pissed off (except EgorK, who isn't really here) and stating they have a growing scum read on me.

Fix my reads, people, if you think (or know, if it's against you!) they're wrong.

what reads? you have not explained any reads? really, wtf are you doing?

[Voltaire]

IG, you're due to POE and not having anything terribly memorable to me this game. I've caught scum that way before (faust in some game). Scum likes to blend in, be in the middle of the pack, participate without drawing attention. It also isn't the strongest read since it's predicated so much by my reads on others.

Silver, you're from the fact that, when I play the game "Pretend it's 3 town vs. 1 scum in Lannister, find the scum". azadin has always struck me as town, PPS is now shifting town, I was always wary of you and he anyway, ergo you. Now, I know it's entirely possible Lannister has no scum or it's azadin or it's all three of you or whatever. You'll notice I haven't actually voted you yet.

[silverspawn]

well I wanted to reread XP next, but now it almost feels like I'm doing it to defend myself

You seem to be feeling a lot of pressure for having no (?) votes on you.

I'm kind of frustrated with the whole pacov discussion, the way it seems to me is that he forced the whole talking about something that isn't even remotely related to scumhunting, and then attacks me saying that I don't scumhunt enough. if i start now, it seems like I'm doing it as an answer to him, even if it's just one guy who hasn't even voted for me.

[Voltaire]

If I am right that IG is scum for this specific reason, then there's not really a "case" to respond to, because the case is "blends in". Which explains the annoyance and harping that I have "no case" that scum has done in the past.

[pacovf]

well I wanted to reread XP next, but now it almost feels like I'm doing it to defend myself

You seem to be feeling a lot of pressure for having no (?) votes on you.

I'm kind of frustrated with the whole pacov discussion, the way it seems to me is that he forced the whole talking about something that isn't even remotely related to scumhunting, and then attacks me saying that I don't scumhunt enough. if i start now, it seems like I'm doing it as an answer to him, even if it's just one guy who hasn't even voted for me.

I'm definitely interested in you rereading XP.

[pacovf]

If I am right that IG is scum for this specific reason, then there's not really a "case" to respond to, because the case is "blends in". Which explains the annoyance and harping that I have "no case" that scum has done in the past.

Didn't you say that you were going to revise your reads after I pointed out who was on Hydrad's wagon? What are your reads now?

[pacovf]

well I wanted to reread XP next, but now it almost feels like I'm doing it to defend myself

You seem to be feeling a lot of pressure for having no (?) votes on you.

I'm kind of frustrated with the whole pacov discussion, the way it seems to me is that he forced the whole talking about something that isn't even remotely related to scumhunting, and then attacks me saying that I don't scumhunt enough. if i start now, it seems like I'm doing it as an answer to him, even if it's just one guy who hasn't even voted for me.

I'm definitely interested in you rereading XP.

For the record, my point wasn't that you weren't scumhunting enough, it was that you were kinda saying that scumhunting isn't important and that you wouldn't devote much energy to it. You will notice that I backed off you (if I was ever pushing you, which I wasn't) when you said that you had starting doing rereads and intended to do more.

[Ichimaru Gin]

If I am right that IG is scum for this specific reason, then there's not really a "case" to respond to, because the case is "blends in". Which explains the annoyance and harping that I have "no case" that scum has done in the past.

No you're right. If there were to be a case against me, this'd probably be it.
I mean, I was sick for a long, long time. Been around middling participation. I don't know, I've tried to comment on everything I thought was important, but I can see that I haven't exactly stood out. That's kinda my regular D1 unless someone starts a case on me and then I get to defend myself and look scummy

PPE: 2

[Voltaire]

If I am right that IG is scum for this specific reason, then there's not really a "case" to respond to, because the case is "blends in". Which explains the annoyance and harping that I have "no case" that scum has done in the past.

Didn't you say that you were going to revise your reads after I pointed out who was on Hydrad's wagon? What are your reads now?

Yes, I haven't re-read yet.

Fun fact: I (nor any town player) do not have perfect reads. However, I am going to participate in trying to lynch scum today. Ergo, I will at times advocate for the lynching of town. It is not helpful if, every time I say I'd like to vote someone, you go "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  ". I find OMGUS fairly townie but that doesn't change the fact that it's annoying and can be used as cover by scum.

Seriously, every time I've voted someone this game they've responded by being pissed off (except EgorK, who isn't really here) and stating they have a growing scum read on me.

Fix my reads, people, if you think (or know, if it's against you!) they're wrong.

what reads? you have not explained any reads? really, wtf are you doing?

Also, vote: silver. Excellent placeholder before re-read. The above is what I was talking about here:

Which explains the annoyance and harping that I have "no case" that scum has done in the past.

as it somewhat applies to silver as well as IG.

[silverspawn]

sure man, you attack someone without reason, he is "wtf"ing you and you think that's a reason to vote. very efficient indeed.

[Robz888]

Actually, I do have a fairly townie read on Voltaire here.

[silverspawn]

I don't even really know what to say about this, but I want to address pretty much everything that concerns me. assuming the distribution of scum/town on houses is random, his reasoning is almost pure arbitrary. it's like if i pick WW, teproc and PPS, and I say, let's assume one of these 3 is scum, then it's almost certainly PPS, because WW is an IC and I have a strong townread on Teproc.

Actually, I do have a fairly townie read on Voltaire here.

I don't think he's scum. I think his case is stupid. And if that makes me scummy for reacting too soon, then I still think his case is stupid.

[EgorK]

PPE: 20 pages

If you want to lynch Hydrad pretty please send someone to our house. Really. I am not sure that power is not compulsory and that vote is not compulsory, thorugh we can ask mod

[pacovf]

PPE: 20 pages

If you want to lynch Hydrad pretty please send someone to our house. Really. I am not sure that power is not compulsory and that vote is not compulsory, thorugh we can ask mod

Man, this is hilarious

[Voltaire]

I don't even really know what to say about this, but I want to address pretty much everything that concerns me. assuming the distribution of scum/town on houses is random, his reasoning is almost pure arbitrary. it's like if i pick WW, teproc and PPS, and I say, let's assume one of these 3 is scum, then it's almost certainly PPS, because WW is an IC and I have a strong townread on Teproc.

That's not crazy! It's arbitrary, yes, but it's helpful to think in if/then terms in this game.

And, to explain where I'm coming from, in HP mafia, one of the games that inspired Monsters U which in turn inspired this game, I let myself have a strong town read on all my Housemates and there was totally scum in there the entire time.

I'm not voting you for just that reason, I'm not that stupid. 

[pacovf]

I don't even really know what to say about this, but I want to address pretty much everything that concerns me. assuming the distribution of scum/town on houses is random, his reasoning is almost pure arbitrary. it's like if i pick WW, teproc and PPS, and I say, let's assume one of these 3 is scum, then it's almost certainly PPS, because WW is an IC and I have a strong townread on Teproc.

That's not crazy! It's arbitrary, yes, but it's helpful to think in if/then terms in this game.

And, to explain where I'm coming from, in HP mafia, one of the games that inspired Monsters U which in turn inspired this game, I let myself have a strong town read on all my Housemates and there was totally scum in there the entire time.

I'm not voting you for just that reason, I'm not that stupid. 

I'm with silver. This is a touch too arbitrary. It is good that you are thinking about the possibility of scum in your house, but taking for granted that there is is a bad way to find scum.

I should know, that kind of suppositions led me to pick a fight in NM VI with TA for no reason (we were both town).

[Voltaire]

I'm with silver. This is a touch too arbitrary. It is good that you are thinking about the possibility of scum in your house, but taking for granted that there is is a bad way to find scum.

POE: bothering scum since forever.

[pacovf]

I'm with silver. This is a touch too arbitrary. It is good that you are thinking about the possibility of scum in your house, but taking for granted that there is is a bad way to find scum.

POE: bothering scum since forever.

Well, process of elimination requires the existence of scum to work. It will give you a culprit whether there is scum or there isn't.

When you arbitrarily restrict the whole population of this game, you don't have the presence of scum guaranteed anymore.

PoE over everybody: good. PoE over Lannister: bad.

[Voltaire]

Tiny problem for you here: that's not the reason I'm voting for silver.

[pacovf]

Right. Nothing to see here, carry on.

[Ichimaru Gin]

How long until the deadline?

[Voltaire]

Almost exactly three days.

[Teproc]

This is the endless problem of your day 1 method Voltaire. PoE on day 1 is mostly arbitrary. Yes, PoE is great, because is catches scum eventually. On day 1, it's just a security blanket because you don't want to take the risk of lynching active players.

[Teproc]

And yes, people these days react strongly when they get wagons. Which is good, all things considered.

[Teproc]

Well when they get voted on is what I mean.

[Teproc]

I think silverspawn is town by the way.

[Voltaire]

This is the endless problem of your day 1 method Voltaire. PoE on day 1 is mostly arbitrary. Yes, PoE is great, because is catches scum eventually. On day 1, it's just a security blanket because you don't want to take the risk of lynching active players.

Nope, active players are usually town. My method lynches scum way more often. I ran numbers once. Traditional POE is obviously better and also obviously only possible on later days.

[Teproc]

This is the endless problem of your day 1 method Voltaire. PoE on day 1 is mostly arbitrary. Yes, PoE is great, because is catches scum eventually. On day 1, it's just a security blanket because you don't want to take the risk of lynching active players.

Nope, active players are usually town. My method lynches scum way more often. I ran numbers once. Traditional POE is obviously better and also obviously only possible on later days.

You ran the numbers on active people vs lurkers being scum ? What sample size was that ?

[silverspawn]

Okay, XP. 22 posts, all listed below (and a few from others to provide context)

I don't see any reason not to claim houses. Scum can just switch houses to figure it out anyways, so we won't have any qt secrets for long.

But they'll still know basically who's in which house.

I am Targaryen.

The mod didn't tell us till we asked.

they are pretty much one liner "go along with majority" posts. well that's not bad, almost everyone went along. it's just what it is.

Also, IG, please don't join our house.

XP is in Targaryen together with Robz and WW. they chose not to reveal their power, but it's supposedly dangerous, so that's why IG shouldn't join. given that WW was an IC, we know for sure that the house isn't all mafia, which means that posting anything else would probably be a bad idea, which means I can't give town points for this one. it's null.

Can you tell me when he posted it? If it's shortly before or after 2:41 ET, he could have just decided he should do it for everyone.

The context here is the ash-pac case. I'm not sure exactly which post he was referring to.

I'm going to go with Ash on this.  Vote: Pacofv

Are you serious?

This is the first time he does something, which is attacking the ash post. and directly afterwards, he even votes ash because of it:

vote: ashersky

for a horrible case and provoking a situation in which his house had to give up information to everyone.

This could totally be town!XP thinking ash is making a horrible case, but it could also be scum!XP thinking, this looks stupid, I know both are town, let's attack him for it. The other options are rather unlikely: If pac and XP are a scum team, he was defending his buddy, and rather openly. but even if pac flips scum, XP probably isn't in much trouble, because there were good reasons for his defense from a town point. and if XP and ash are scum, it's a good way to make sure noone suspects the other one if one of them flips.

Robz and ww can confirm, I think.

the context is his claim of being targaryen. this is null.

I'm okay with sharing our power, just not letting anyone in or sharing our empowerment condition.

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

what he meant was, WW is an IC, and he knows he's town, so it's likely that it's an all town house, so better don't share the power. so, town!XP does have legit reasons to keep it a secret. but at the same time, scum!XP has even more interest not to share it. as scum he and his team know it anyway, so why let town know it?

Actually, never mind. I don't think we should share unless there's an overwhelming consensus. I just realized that chances are robz is town.

There will be a role related to the setup. For all we know scum has access to your QT even if they're not in your QT right now.

Hmm. That's. in.... intriguing. Do you think it could be Ichi's role, though?

I don't have anything to say here.

Ok, so if we empower Lannister here's what we do :

- a non-WW Targaryen joins Lannister
- a Stark joins Lannister
- a Baratheon joins Lannister
- we don't want only one person in Baratheon, so Ichi can join Baratheon for example, plus maybe an original Lannister
- no one, under any circumstances, joins House Targaryen

Anyone have a problem with this ?

I thought lannister needed stark to be gone?

Here we have another one-liner, with XP supposedly messing up the seutp, and thinking Lannister needs stark to be gone, instead of vice versa.

So we'Re choosing lannister instead of stark?

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?Also, vote: hydrad

two one liners about the seutp and a hydrad post out of nowhere. then there is over 5 pages of nothing, before hydrad responds with this:

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

this is pretty much the post. He didn't post anything about read before or since this post.

Basically all he has done is early game discussing of the RMM for a bit. then deciding on whether or not he should reveal the tar power. then he dissapeared for a bit and posted this single post. then is gone again.

XP doesn't answer, and later posts this:

I am completely unable to keep up with this. All I can say is that Ash looks scummy and that theory talk is really boring, and not much real stuff has been going on. I feel like we can just do a random Lurker lynch. Not me, of course, though.vote: EgorK

so, this is almost begging to look scummy. he comes out of semi-lurking with a nonsensical case for hydrad, and just says "hey, let's lynch a random lurker, but don't lynch me." funny enough, people have been giving him town points for it, because it's so bold.

Then pac is making this post

7. XerxesPraelor - I see him as scummy. His vote on me had really no context. It was just a vote on me. He also hasn't posted much so people are forgetting that hes in this game which is what scum wants I think

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

this is pretty much the post. He didn't post anything about read before or since this post.

Basically all he has done is early game discussing of the RMM for a bit. then deciding on whether or not he should reveal the tar power. then he dissapeared for a bit and posted this single post. then is gone again.

Hydrad is voting for you right now.

and XP is forced to answer and just backs off.

Let's see. I voted Hydrad just like that because I remembered having a bad feeling about Hydrad and because I agreed with the reasons some other people made a case against him with.

Looking back, it was because Hydrad wanted to keep the arsonist power a little too much. I haven't posted much because it seems like others have been figuring out the setup already.

Then there's that:

Also, I am officially disappointed that my RMM has fewer posts than this, with 4 days fewer too.

I like Azadin's plan better, but it looks like I'm too late for the discussion? Hiding a powerful PR behind a really weak one seems like the sort of thing that an interesting setup would have.

PPE: I also agree Azadin looks pretty towny to me.

PPE: Well, not many people are actoming scummy, and we don't have much time left.

which is a little bit of setup talking, and justifying his intention to just vote someone else, because there isn't much time left. well, 4 days, that's almost half of the day.

One other thing: I think that if one person becomes a consensus town read, it would be okay for Targ to accept them. Right, robz +ww?

null


I've packed these three in one:

Why specifically EgorK?

PPS would be fine too.

This is where it's at.

Again, why?

so, we have

-> a lot of lurking
-> a lot of one liners
-> a lot of setup talk
-> attacking ash/defending pac
-> making a nonsensical case for hydrad, and backing off quickly
-> trying to get another lurker to be lynched

the only thing that holds me back from having a super scum read now is that it's kind of too obvious? dunno. I don't think I'd give town points for any of his posts.

but even with that, in this game where most people look towny, this is definitely the best case yet, so I'll definitely vote:XerxesPraelor. The second best lynch is still EgorK I think, but I'd rather vote someone who has made these posts than someone who hasn't really made any posts.

[Teproc]

Have you played with XP before silver ?

If not : you just described town!XP.

[Teproc]

WHat do you think about PPS ?

[Voltaire]

This is the endless problem of your day 1 method Voltaire. PoE on day 1 is mostly arbitrary. Yes, PoE is great, because is catches scum eventually. On day 1, it's just a security blanket because you don't want to take the risk of lynching active players.

Nope, active players are usually town. My method lynches scum way more often. I ran numbers once. Traditional POE is obviously better and also obviously only possible on later days.

You ran the numbers on active people vs lurkers being scum ? What sample size was that ?

Awhile ago. Five/six most recent games, at the time.

[silverspawn]

Have you played with XP before silver ?

If not : you just described town!XP.

one game is going, so I can't reference that. more no than yes.

WHat do you think about PPS ?

what I've noticed from him was, he was lurking for a while, then he appeared out of nowhere and made a case for something (not a case against a player, just a case for some argument), and then he disappeared into lurking. he doesn't seem very concerned with his survival, which is just generally weird, but it's more towny than scummy. his last post about being busy IRL read to me like, I don't care so much about this game, lynch me if you want it's no big deal.

[pacovf]

so, we have

-> a lot of lurking
-> a lot of one liners
-> a lot of setup talk
-> attacking ash/defending pac
-> making a nonsensical case for hydrad, and backing off quickly
-> trying to get another lurker to be lynched

the only thing that holds me back from having a super scum read now is that it's kind of too obvious? dunno. I don't think I'd give town points for any of his posts.

but even with that, in this game where most people look towny, this is definitely the best case yet, so I'll definitely vote:XerxesPraelor. The second best lynch is still EgorK I think, but I'd rather vote someone who has made these posts than someone who hasn't really made any posts.

Hmm, I take issue to Hydrad's case being nonsensical. His vote for Hydrad doesn't come out of nowhere, it is in response of Azadin and I building a case against him.

I kinda don't want to lynch EgorK after his latest post. But even if he hadn't posted that, I think a non-informative lynch D1 is not the best town can do.

By the way, who are your town reads? Sorry if you've said this before, I forgot.

[Witherweaver]

I'm with silver. This is a touch too arbitrary. It is good that you are thinking about the possibility of scum in your house, but taking for granted that there is is a bad way to find scum.

POE: bothering scum since forever.

Haha, +1

[silverspawn]

Teproc, for the way he reacted to ash. I really have no idea how serious/honest ash was with his posts, it could be anything between completely serious and completely fake, but Teproc reacted really strongly to it, in a way that clearly wasn't about the game anymore. It's not impossible that scum!Teproc does this, but generally, I think it's fair to assume that scum feels more pressure, and is less willing to take part in such a discussion

actually, I'm less convinced about this now that I write it. he could probably just do this as scum too. mh.

I buy the IC thing on WW, so he's town.

ash, I first thought was town, now I'm null. I only played one game with him, and he was kind of crazy there too, but he got lynched day1 and was town. I don't really know how he plays as scum.

azadin is towny based on my reread

hydrad is towny as a gut fealing

[silverspawn]

and silver is towny based on my pm

[silverspawn]

unrelated, i'm just seeing that we can't nolynch

7. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, one of two things will happen: If there was a lynch on the previous Day, there will be no lynch. Otherwise the player with the most votes at deadline will be lynched, with ties broken randomly

for some reason. maybe this setup allows for a stalemate. is this a hint that there can be multiple doctors?

[pacovf]

Teproc, for the way he reacted to ash. I really have no idea how serious/honest ash was with his posts, it could be anything between completely serious and completely fake, but Teproc reacted really strongly to it, in a way that clearly wasn't about the game anymore. It's not impossible that scum!Teproc does this, but generally, I think it's fair to assume that scum feels more pressure, and is less willing to take part in such a discussion

actually, I'm less convinced about this now that I write it. he could probably just do this as scum too. mh.

I buy the IC thing on WW, so he's town.

ash, I first thought was town, now I'm null. I only played one game with him, and he was kind of crazy there too, but he got lynched day1 and was town. I don't really know how he plays as scum.

azadin is towny based on my reread

hydrad is towny as a gut fealing

Mmm, you don't have that many town reads then. Are you sure you can't do better than XP?

[silverspawn]

Mmm, you don't have that many town reads then. Are you sure you can't do better than XP?

no. there are 3 days left. i'm posting for the best case I have so far. i could OMGUS read you if you want.

[pacovf]

Mmm, you don't have that many town reads then. Are you sure you can't do better than XP?

no. there are 3 days left. i'm posting for the best case I have so far. i could OMGUS read you if you want.

Sure!

[pacovf]

Does anyone think that I've been very aggressive towards silverspawn? I'm biased, so I'd like an outsider's opinion.

[ashersky]

Actually, I do have a fairly townie read on Voltaire here.

I used to.  He's whittling it away.

It's probably just my fear of being duped by him.

[Voltaire]

It's probably just my fear of being duped by him.

That's all it is.

I am quite proud of my D1 here - there is no way for the veterans who know me to find me scummy unless they themselves are scum and need to consider trying to mislynch me. Even if that happens, it's going to leave quite a trail for everyone else to follow.

And I'm a town read for most people who I'm not voting for or considering voting for anyway.

unvote

[pacovf]

unvote

You mentioned that your vote was a placeholder until you got your reread done. Have you finished it, or have recent events removed any suspicion of silverspawn from your mind?

[Voltaire]

unvote

You mentioned that your vote was a placeholder until you got your reread done. Have you finished it, or have recent events removed any suspicion of silverspawn from your mind?

The later.

[ashersky]

I'm sure no one is interested, but if one were to do a targeted re-read of pacovf, they would see that his posting style (that is, syntax, punctuation, etc.) has changed since I made my fully articulated case.  Less commas, longer sentences, bigger paragraphs.

Now, maybe he went from phone posting to computer posting.  Or maybe he consciously or unconsciously changed his writing style based on those cues.

I think we should lynch someone today, by the way.  No lynch at the deadline just helps no one but scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm sure no one is interested, but if one were to do a targeted re-read of pacovf, they would see that his posting style (that is, syntax, punctuation, etc.) has changed since I made my fully articulated case.  Less commas, longer sentences, bigger paragraphs.

Now, maybe he went from phone posting to computer posting.  Or maybe he consciously or unconsciously changed his writing style based on those cues.

I think we should lynch someone today, by the way.  No lynch at the deadline just helps no one but scum.

There's a part of me that's thinking about joining you ash. . .
For sure, no lynch today sucks. I really hope Voltaire still doesn't want to lynch me today, because that's just stupid. Despite what I said earlier, it still gives me a bad feeling about him.

Today, I think I want to lynch out of: pacovf, PPS, or Voltaire. I could do Robz or EgorK as lurker lynches, but those are probably less useful.

[pacovf]

Probably I just unconciously changed my posting style because the situation was different.

I did not change from phone posting to computer posting or the other way around, I've been always computer posting.

I agree with your last point though. I would like to lynch Hydrad today (voting for him). Otherwise, the people I would lynch to avoid no-lynch are, in no specific order, Ichimaru Gin, silverspawn, pingpongsam.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Probably I just unconciously changed my posting style because the situation was different.

I did not change from phone posting to computer posting or the other way around, I've been always computer posting.

I agree with your last point though. I would like to lynch Hydrad today (voting for him). Otherwise, the people I would lynch to avoid no-lynch are, in no specific order, Ichimaru Gin, silverspawn, pingpongsam.

Why do you want to lynch me now? Getting nervous?

[pacovf]

I don't want to lynch you, you're null. But if the other choice is no-lynch...

[ashersky]

Probably I just unconciously changed my posting style because the situation was different.

I did not change from phone posting to computer posting or the other way around, I've been always computer posting.

I agree with your last point though. I would like to lynch Hydrad today (voting for him). Otherwise, the people I would lynch to avoid no-lynch are, in no specific order, Ichimaru Gin, silverspawn, pingpongsam.

Totally not related to my read on you, but we basically have opposite lynch pools.  I mean, I said I'd vote opposite of you no matter what, but even had I not said it, we're just at different places.

My popsquiz:

MUST lynch: pacovf
WOULD lynch for a lynch: XP, EgorK, azadin
MEH: hydrad, Robz, Voltaire
WON'T lynch: silverspawn, witherweaver, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin, pps

[pacovf]

Interesting, it seems we only agree on Teproc, WW and Robz.

The one that surprises me the most is Azadin, he looks like obtown to me.

[pacovf]

Well, you did say that the only reason your townread on Voltaire is getting eroded is because you are afraid he might be duping us, so I guess we also agree on him.

[Voltaire]

My popsquiz:

MUST lynch: pacovf
WOULD lynch for a lynch: XP, EgorK, azadin
MEH: hydrad, Robz, Voltaire
WON'T lynch: silverspawn, witherweaver, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin, pps

I'm (pleasantly?) surprised at how close our lists are, barring the famous exceptions.

[ashersky]

The one that surprises me the most is Azadin, he looks like obtown to me.

It's not that he's scummy.  It's just that...he's...nondescript?

[EgorK]

Oh my. Thanks for just one page overnight (for me) I finished reading thread. I'll try to get my reads in. In the meantime mod said that house actions are non compulsive in our QT

[azadin]

The one that surprises me the most is Azadin, he looks like obtown to me.

It's not that he's scummy.  It's just that...he's...nondescript?

I'm nondescript? I've never been described that way before...

[azadin]

Would lynch: Hydrad, XP, EgorK, Robz
Meh: pacovf, ash, voltaire, silverspawn
Won't lynch: IG, PPS, WW, Teproc

I know the case against Hydrad seems weak to some people, but I really do feel like he was acting like nervous/excited scum for many of his posts. I might do a silverspawn-style re-read of his posts tomorrow and post it. I wouldn't blame other people for not trusting my reads yet, though. I'm still learning people's metagame.

I'm not crazy about an XP lynch. I need to reread him tomorrow as well to see if he moves down my list.

EgorK and Robz I would lynch if the alternative is a no lynch, because any lynch is better than no lynch, and these two have been extremely non active. It looks like EgorK is starting to participate a bit more so he may move down my list by tomorrow.

My "meh" reads are people that have either struck me as both scummy and towny at various points in our (40 page  ) day 1 discussion, so they are either null or I'm just too confused about them right now to have an opinion.

My won't lynch list are people that I have strong town reads on and don't think should be lynched yet. IG was on the fence of meh/no lynch, but (especially lately) has been acting somewhat towny. PPS just seemed sincerely apathetic about this game (which some people may see as a reason to lynch him, but I disagree, at least D1), and considering his vacation/family circumstances, I really understand that. WW for obvious reasons, and Teproc has struck me as doing the most thorough/logical scumhunting of anyone so far, and is probably my strongest actual town read.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So. . .who's going down today?
We got what, 2 days left now? I'm feeling a little townier on XP, in that I'm pretty sure I was reading him incorrectly before. Still seems like a lot of people want to lynch Hydrad--I'll have to reread him for myself and see if there's anything I missed.

[Hydrad]

I'm interested in PPS slightly. There are a decent amount of people that think hes super scummy and then i just noticed asher and azadin both put him on super towny.

Also I don't want part of my meta to be is one of peoples top scum reads every day1 in mafia...

[faust]

Vote Count 1.6

pacovf (2): ashersky, Robz888
EgorK (3): silverspawn, XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
Hydrad (2): pacovf, azadin
pingpongsam (2): Teproc, Witherweaver
XerxesPraelor (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (3): EgorK, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[pacovf]

Also I don't want part of my meta to be is one of peoples top scum reads every day1 in mafia...

This is the second time he does something like this. Here's the first.

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

The first time (his first response to people voting for him) struck me as trying to minimize those votes before the wagon got traction. This second time, it's starting to sound like "I might end up default-lynched" desperate.

Seriously guys, vote.


Surprised by the people giving townread to PPS. He puts some mild suspicion on Voltaire, defends Ash hard, then activates self-destruct sequence at perceived hostility against him (vote from Teproc and random-WW, suspicion from Voltaire). Teproc's case was based on PPS not fitting his self-professed meta of confrontation and craziness, then right afterwards self-voting. Voltaire's is based on PoE and lurking (right?).
I'm not convinced, because he was packing and is now vacationing, so his posting would logically be different than in usual circumstances; plus, I don't really know his meta anyway. But by the same reasoning, you shouldn't be giving him town points because he seems genuinely annoyed or anything.
This is mostly directed at Azadin, Ash is probably following some other kind of reasoning.

[silverspawn]

mod: my vote should be on XP

[faust]

Vote Count 1.6a

pacovf (2): ashersky, Robz888
EgorK (2): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
Hydrad (2): pacovf, azadin
pingpongsam (2): Teproc, Witherweaver
XerxesPraelor (2): Hydrad, silverspawn

Not Voting (3): EgorK, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.

[silverspawn]

this is far from a complete case, but I'd like to point out two things about hydrad

one: he dropped his "jumpy" nature before he got under any pressure. using ! instead of . and these kinds of things

Oh thats quite a empowerment condition.

IG you should join my house! It helps our empowerment condition I think.

Also In my QT I had a mod post stating who all was in the house if thats what you guys are talking about? I'm slightly confused

i believe this was his last post in that way

and second: look at his two pre-game posts

/in!

/out 

this looks to me like he was already excited pre game. so, isn't it reasonable to assume that it was just because it's a cool game and all that, and not because he was scum?

[silverspawn]

that doesn't mean I'm super contra hydrad lynch, though I do feel towny about him; i'll do a full reread now. without the compilation though.

[silverspawn]

a little bit in, azadin posts this:

Also, if one of Ash's main points against pacovf were his seemingly excited post nature (new scum apparently get giddy and post differently), I'd like to point out that I got this exact impression by Hydrad. He seemed to be posting lots of small bursts of things, none of which were directly helpful (except his revealing of his house's power). Granted, I've never played a game with him before, and haven't had a chance to go back and read previous games he's been in. Just noting suspicion. Everyone seems so hyperfocused on this one case (ash/pacovf), it's like the rest of everyone else's posts are invisible.

I do think it's sincere, but I don't really get behind the argument. The part that I highlighted is true though, Hydrad hasn't done much pre this point.

Later, P makes a case against hydrad:

Scummy on Hydrad:

Wait you think we should just ditch our house? Having a vig town controlled would be a way to fight back. I'm surprised that your instant reaction is to just ditch it.

Hmm I guess there is the risk that if a scum takes it over it could get bad 

Also just for curiosities sake. If there is one person left in a house and we lynch them but people tried to join the house that night. Would they be able to or would the house already have disappeared.

Hmm interesting. You guys are much more careful then me I guess. Should we at least try to get our empower ment condition to see what it is?  There's a chance it might not be vig at all and could be useful I guess.

Even if it's only one night getting at least one potential vig shot from town is better then nothing right?

Reacts too strongly to the idea of abandoning the arsonist, and a bit too eager to just get a shot down. It is unclear if even a town-aligned vigilante is good for town so early in the game, and this version is so easy for scum to use in their favour, I don't think this should have been his reaction as town.  Vote: Hydrad.

Oh, and Ash, you definitely have to vote for Hydrad, he's posted a self-aware joke!

Targa eyes are obviously scummy. Let's lynch then all it's obvious they are the scum faction!

So, firstly, I totally don't agree with this case, because my reaction to the vig was the exact same as Hydrads, which is why I can't find it scummy. I just didn't happen to express it that much.

But more importantly, after this, azadin also makes a case:

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

and then XP jumps on the wagon without any reason:

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

if hydrad is town and XP is scum, this is probably a good way to do this. if hydrad is scum and XP is town... well, he could still do it

but the bottom line so far is really that I don't find any arguments against hydrad convincing.

[silverspawn]

a few random things

Ah thanks. Somehow I forgot that you had also made the case against me and just saw the azadin and XP votes which didn't make sense. I guess I didn't want to lose my power because if we get to use in with a town person its good for us. So my first reaction was why can't we use it as it gives us a chance to hit scum during the night. I will admit I underestimated the issues if we let a scum control it. Part of me just wanted to control it and use it in a town way but for a moment I forgot that none of you know I'm town and that you won't be willing to trust me to control the power.

Its not always going to be good but if you do hit scum during night its a huge help. Its kinda like a vig. You might be scared for hitting town and you are going to at least a few times. But its still overall good for town. Its kinda like doing a day one lynch with no info. Its still a chance to hit scum so you should do it anyways in the small chance of hitting scum. Thats how i feel atleast.

Hydrad - I remember nothing about [Hydrad] but I don't like the wagon, feels veeeeeery easy

what if for baratheon. we light prime someone. In the next day they announce who they primed and we can collectivly decide if we should burn them or not. If we think they should live we dissolve baratheon? Is there a downside to that?

yea, so, I think the topic is closed for me. I'm not doing hydrad.

[Teproc]

I agree with silver. The whole arsonist thing in particular is not something I see Hydrad doing.

[Voltaire]

and second: look at his two pre-game posts

/in!

/out 

this looks to me like he was already excited pre game. so, isn't it reasonable to assume that it was just because it's a cool game and all that, and not because he was scum?

Do you live in an alternate universe where PMs were sent out before the game filled?

[Voltaire]

vote: PPS

[Witherweaver]

I agree with silver. The whole arsonist thing in particular is not something I see Hydrad doing.

I agree with this.

[Teproc]

and second: look at his two pre-game posts

/in!

/out 

this looks to me like he was already excited pre game. so, isn't it reasonable to assume that it was just because it's a cool game and all that, and not because he was scum?

Do you live in an alternate universe where PMs were sent out before the game filled?

His point is that Hydrad was excited before the game, therefore his being excited is not a scumtell.

I disagree with the premise that new scum is excited but someone said that so that's what he's reponding to. In my experience, new scum is terrified of doing the wrong thing.

[Witherweaver]

Teproc is the Senseroc

[EgorK]

Ok, let's start with some theory on how I do scumhunting day 1. Fact is, and I already quoted that in some previous game, statistics shows that day 1 lynch is pretty random, i. e. expected value of hitting scum is about expected value of player being scum. Also I think that we can't say "this player is def town"/"this player is def scum" about really good players like ash or Robz. Because if we can say that and be right then we can also find opposite in games where they are scum, and hence, they would not be really good players. So I prefer to have some notes on such players but do not consider them for lynch pool/def town pool unless they do something really off (and I suspect ash cannot surprise me by now)

Next, I would assume there are about 3.1 scum in setup, so average player is about 26% scummy and 74% towny for me (as I know I am town)

So, flavor. It was mentioned in setup that flavor and aligment are independent. It really makes no sense for any of currently revealed characters to ally themselves with Grejoy. Jon Snow allying himself with apparent killers of his apparent brothers? Melisandre (that's me), servant of R'Hllor, which allies herself with servant of Drowned God (fire vs water, yes) abandoning apparent reincarnation of Azor Ahai? Barristan Selmy, who participated in Pyke battle and who's main concern always was realm? Briene of Thart, who tries to prove that woman can be knight, would abandon her honor? So yes, flavor names are obviosuly irrelevant to alignment, so fact that someone claims your alignment should not bother you would you be scum or town. So reacting in non-nervous way here is what one would do. Still I would give some town points because WW as scum may panic for no apparent reason, so I'd go with about 17% scum/83% town for him

Reads on others later

PPE: 5

[azadin]

Yes, I think I see where Teproc and silverspawn are coming from. I went back and re-re-read the things I was having trouble with before, and I'm coming to the same consensus.

I'm not 100% convinced he's not scum, but now I think there are some better D1 lynches.

In fact,

But more importantly, after this, azadin also makes a case:

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

and then XP jumps on the wagon without any reason:

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

if hydrad is town and XP is scum, this is probably a good way to do this. if hydrad is scum and XP is town... well, he could still do it

but the bottom line so far is really that I don't find any arguments against hydrad convincing.

I think this alone is reason enough that I am not going to Vote: XerxesPraelor. He just kinda jumped in nonchalantly on the wagon paco and I were forming. I already had a scummy read on him, so yeah.

PPE: 1

[Voltaire]

Teproc is the Senseroc

It's like WW is buddying me through Teproc now...

[Teproc]

Teproc is the Senseroc

It's like WW is buddying me through Teproc now...

Town!WW plays pretty similarly to us. I remember thinking he was the new Voltaire in his newbie game. Then he rolled scum 8 times in a row.

[Voltaire]

Yes, I think I see where Teproc and silverspawn are coming from. I went back and re-re-read the things I was having trouble with before, and I'm coming to the same consensus.

I'm not 100% convinced he's not scum, but now I think there are some better D1 lynches.

In fact,

But more importantly, after this, azadin also makes a case:

My earlier suspicion of Hydrad has only gotten stronger the longer I've thought about it, and pacovf outlined some of the specific posts that were sticking out in my mind (especially that self aware joke...but I'm not going to get into a recursive meta discussion right now).

Vote: Hydrad

and then XP jumps on the wagon without any reason:

Wait, do we know if the empowerment is permanent? If the empowerment condition stops being true, is the power still empowered?

Also, vote: hydrad

if hydrad is town and XP is scum, this is probably a good way to do this. if hydrad is scum and XP is town... well, he could still do it

but the bottom line so far is really that I don't find any arguments against hydrad convincing.

I think this alone is reason enough that I am not going to Vote: XerxesPraelor. He just kinda jumped in nonchalantly on the wagon paco and I were forming. I already had a scummy read on him, so yeah.

PPE: 1

A vote with very little reason looks extremely scummy and draws attention. I find this town/leaning null as a data point on XP.

[Teproc]

I wouldn't find sucha  vote townie for XP, kinda like I would find it townie for mail-mi. It's just playing according to his general meta, which is null.

[Voltaire]

So, flavor. It was mentioned in setup that flavor and aligment are independent. It really makes no sense for any of currently revealed characters to ally themselves with Grejoy. Jon Snow allying himself with apparent killers of his apparent brothers? Melisandre (that's me), servant of R'Hllor, which allies herself with servant of Drowned God (fire vs water, yes) abandoning apparent reincarnation of Azor Ahai? Barristan Selmy, who participated in Pyke battle and who's main concern always was realm? Briene of Thart, who tries to prove that woman can be knight, would abandon her honor? So yes, flavor names are obviosuly irrelevant to alignment, so fact that someone claims your alignment should not bother you would you be scum or town. So reacting in non-nervous way here is what one would do. Still I would give some town points because WW as scum may panic for no apparent reason, so I'd go with about 17% scum/83% town for him

What a giant pile of nothing. This makes me want to vote EgorK again.

[Voltaire]

PPS, azadin, ash, Hydrad, and XP have not claimed their flavor. I believe they should.

[silverspawn]

PPS, azadin, ash, Hydrad, and XP have not claimed their flavor. I believe they should.

+1

[Witherweaver]

Teproc is the Senseroc

It's like WW is buddying me through Teproc now...

Town!WW plays pretty similarly to us. I remember thinking he was the new Voltaire in his newbie game. Then he rolled scum 8 times in a row.

And you kept thinking I was town

[azadin]

PPS, azadin, ash, Hydrad, and XP have not claimed their flavor. I believe they should.

I'm Tyrion Lannister.

[Witherweaver]

PPS, azadin, ash, Hydrad, and XP have not claimed their flavor. I believe they should.

Why?

[Voltaire]

PPS, azadin, ash, Hydrad, and XP have not claimed their flavor. I believe they should.

Why?

Because half-claiming is bad.

[Witherweaver]

But they haven't claimed anything else...

[Voltaire]

But they haven't claimed anything else...

We, as a town, have half-claimed our flavors.

[Witherweaver]

But they haven't claimed anything else...

We, as a town, have half-claimed our flavors.

Oh, I thought you meant individually half-claiming. 

I was actually against claiming flavors.. I only ended up doing it because of the Teproc thing.  I still don't see the issue with some not being claimed, though.

[EgorK]

So, flavor. It was mentioned in setup that flavor and aligment are independent. It really makes no sense for any of currently revealed characters to ally themselves with Grejoy. Jon Snow allying himself with apparent killers of his apparent brothers? Melisandre (that's me), servant of R'Hllor, which allies herself with servant of Drowned God (fire vs water, yes) abandoning apparent reincarnation of Azor Ahai? Barristan Selmy, who participated in Pyke battle and who's main concern always was realm? Briene of Thart, who tries to prove that woman can be knight, would abandon her honor? So yes, flavor names are obviosuly irrelevant to alignment, so fact that someone claims your alignment should not bother you would you be scum or town. So reacting in non-nervous way here is what one would do. Still I would give some town points because WW as scum may panic for no apparent reason, so I'd go with about 17% scum/83% town for him

What a giant pile of nothing. This makes me want to vote EgorK again.

Yes, reasoning is rather long, but I just want to make sure that person that can deduce his real flavor name from description (which WW had done) would not assume flavor is relevant to alignment. I'll try to be shorter with other reads

[Witherweaver]

Ok, let's start with some theory on how I do scumhunting day 1. Fact is, and I already quoted that in some previous game, statistics shows that day 1 lynch is pretty random, i. e. expected value of hitting scum is about expected value of player being scum. Also I think that we can't say "this player is def town"/"this player is def scum" about really good players like ash or Robz. Because if we can say that and be right then we can also find opposite in games where they are scum, and hence, they would not be really good players. So I prefer to have some notes on such players but do not consider them for lynch pool/def town pool unless they do something really off (and I suspect ash cannot surprise me by now)

Next, I would assume there are about 3.1 scum in setup, so average player is about 26% scummy and 74% towny for me (as I know I am town)

So, flavor. It was mentioned in setup that flavor and aligment are independent. It really makes no sense for any of currently revealed characters to ally themselves with Grejoy. Jon Snow allying himself with apparent killers of his apparent brothers? Melisandre (that's me), servant of R'Hllor, which allies herself with servant of Drowned God (fire vs water, yes) abandoning apparent reincarnation of Azor Ahai? Barristan Selmy, who participated in Pyke battle and who's main concern always was realm? Briene of Thart, who tries to prove that woman can be knight, would abandon her honor? So yes, flavor names are obviosuly irrelevant to alignment, so fact that someone claims your alignment should not bother you would you be scum or town. So reacting in non-nervous way here is what one would do. Still I would give some town points because WW as scum may panic for no apparent reason, so I'd go with about 17% scum/83% town for him

Reads on others later

PPE: 5

Uhh... what?

[pacovf]

Teproc is the Senseroc

It's like WW is buddying me through Teproc now...

Now watch as he reveals he was scum after the last mislynch.


Other than that... 2 days until the deadline. I still don't like Hydrad anymore than I did before Silverspawn's and Azadin's rereads.

But my town read on XP has vanished. I remember now that he was quickly against Ash, saying his case was horrible and because he was forcing his house to share information. Of course, the latter is not relevant (if Ash is scum, he has shared this information on the scum QT). And I am starting to think that the former is a scummy thing to do too, since basically nobody else has agreed with me on that point (aside from Teproc on some points). I think now that it came a bit too early for town!XP to actually be so sure of that. I didn't give much thought to this before because bias.

So I could lynch XP today too.

I think that lynching EgorK is not a good idea. If he flips scum, it's obviously good, but frankly I don't think it is that probable. And if he flips town, what do we have for our trouble? Nothing, because he has interacted with basically no one, and everybody in the wagon will scurry the blame by saying "Hey it was a lurker-lynch!"


PPE: I think this discussion on flavour is irrelevant. I am not opposed to revealing each player's flavour though, you never know what can come out of that.

[Teproc]

I actually think it's better if they don't claim their flavour. I claimed mine because I figured it didn't matter at all, but it can always be used for the announcing targets trick. We can even purposefully choose people who can do that for our house powers.

As a side note, pacovf, Voltaire's got you beat by about 10 months.

Yep, this again. Teproc makes all the sense.

[Teproc]

Teproc is the Senseroc

It's like WW is buddying me through Teproc now...

Town!WW plays pretty similarly to us. I remember thinking he was the new Voltaire in his newbie game. Then he rolled scum 8 times in a row.

And you kept thinking I was town

I know... that's why I'm happy you're IC-ish here, I'm absolutely incapable of reading you.

[pacovf]

I actually think it's better if they don't claim their flavour. I claimed mine because I figured it didn't matter at all, but it can always be used for the announcing targets trick. We can even purposefully choose people who can do that for our house powers.

Can you explain the "announcing targets trick"? Or would you rather not?

I don't see any advantage to not-claiming. Although I don't see any advantage to claiming either, so whatevs.

As a side note, pacovf, Voltaire's got you beat by about 10 months.

Yep, this again. Teproc makes all the sense.

Irrelevant, only this game exists!

[Teproc]

I actually think it's better if they don't claim their flavour. I claimed mine because I figured it didn't matter at all, but it can always be used for the announcing targets trick. We can even purposefully choose people who can do that for our house powers.

Can you explain the "announcing targets trick"? Or would you rather not?

I don't see any advantage to not-claiming. Although I don't see any advantage to claiming either, so whatevs.

It's a much-discussed, rarely actually used but theoretically awesome way for PRs to announce their targets without announcing it.

The typical role that works with this is Hider. It's an incredibly swingy role where you target someone at night : if they're town you "hide" behind them meaning anything targeting you will fail, but you will be affected by anything targeted by the other person. If you target scum, you die.

So let's say I'm a claimed Hider who hasn't claimed his flavor name. I make a list of players and assign them each a lette (I do this in the thread). Then the next morning if I'm dead, people look at the first letter of my flavor name : that's who I targeted, which means they're scum

Now obviously it's not useful that often but there's no actual point in having people claim, so even an improbable upside makes it worth it not to claim in my opinion.And even if we don't have anything as good as a Hider to use it with, it's very useful to townto figure out what happened at night (insert ongoing game reference).

[Voltaire]

but there's no actual point in having people claim

Disagree here.

I also feel that using flavor in this way violates the "no cryptography" rule.

[pacovf]

I also feel that using flavor in this way violates the "no cryptography" rule.

Fair point.

[Teproc]

I also feel that using flavor in this way violates the "no cryptography" rule.

Here comes the fun police.

Have we ever used it succesfully by the way ? I always hear about the Hider plan in Clue which I'm guessing was based on this, but didn't it somehow fail there ?

[Voltaire]

I also feel that using flavor in this way violates the "no cryptography" rule.

Here comes the fun police.

Have we ever used it succesfully by the way ? I always hear about the Hider plan in Clue which I'm guessing was based on this, but didn't it somehow fail there ?

No, it worked perfectly and caught scum N1/D2. ash was town and so violently against it (even after it worked, somehow, similar to his reaction about the Masons in Dice Mafia) everyone assumed he was scum.

[Voltaire]

I'm calling it: I don't have time to re-read.

Here's my lynch pool, ranked, with a line separating "want to lynch" (top) from "would lynch" (bottom):

pingpongsam
silverspawn
Hydrad
XerxesPraelor
----
EgorK
Robz888
Ichimaru Gin

I will lynch any of these people above No Lynch.

[pacovf]

Ok, guys, we can't just wait for stuff to happen.

Vote: XerxesPraelor

[silverspawn]

I'll do all that aren't crossed out, and I'd like to do one that's bold

silverspawn
pacovf
ashersky
Hydrad
Witherweaver
Teproc
XerxesPraelor
EgorK
Robz888
Ichimaru Gin
pingpongsam
azadin
Voltaire

[pacovf]

I'm calling it: I don't have time to re-read.

Here's my lynch pool, ranked, with a line separating "want to lynch" (top) from "would lynch" (bottom):

pingpongsam
silverspawn
Hydrad
XerxesPraelor
----
EgorK
Robz888
Ichimaru Gin

I will lynch any of these people above No Lynch.

Why did Hydrad make it into your "Want to lynch" list? Or Silverspawn, for that matter?

[Voltaire]

Hydrad - I liked some of the later talk about him, as long as I'm not getting him mixed up with anyone. Wait, yes, I am. Take him out.
silver - I think his reaction to my vote/that whole nine yards was quite scummy.

[pingpongsam]

I am Varys.

[Witherweaver]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

[pacovf]

I am Varys.

Oh, this clearly has implications for the setup. Nothing earth-shattering right now, but it's interesting that there is no Varys-aligned faction/PR, since both are independent of flavour character. Definitely something to keep in mind.

[Teproc]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

[Robz888]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

[Teproc]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

I will when they're this obvious.

[Witherweaver]

For serious.

[Teproc]

For serious.

What were you expecting Egork to respond ?

"Well, I'm scum so I know the scum faction are the Greyjoy, duh !"

I thought you had missed that and was trying to save everyone some time.

[Witherweaver]

For serious.

What were you expecting Egork to respond ?

"Well, I'm scum so I know the scum faction are the Greyjoy, duh !"

I thought you had missed that and was trying to save everyone some time.

Yes, I didn't actually read the opening flavor.  I did kind of want EgorK to respond, but I get your point.

[Voltaire]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

Anything to contribute today?

[Witherweaver]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

Anything to contribute today?

He has to pick his battles carefully.

[Hydrad]

at work so I havn't been following along fully but if i understand it I should flavor claim?

[Voltaire]

at work so I havn't been following along fully but if i understand it I should flavor claim?

I want you to, some others don't.

[Hydrad]

at work so I havn't been following along fully but if i understand it I should flavor claim?

I want you to, some others don't.

Hmm well I don't see a problem with it. I don't really know who my person is that well as I don't follow a song of ice and fire that well. I did a bit of googling but that was it.

So I guess I'm in favor of it but I don't know how much it will help us.

[Robz888]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

I will when they're this obvious.

Not even then, please.

[Teproc]

at work so I havn't been following along fully but if i understand it I should flavor claim?

I want you to, some others don't.

Meh, I don't really feel that strongly about it.

[Teproc]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

I will when they're this obvious.

Not even then, please.

I get your point, and I know I sometimes do this too much, but is this really all you have to say about this game ?

[Voltaire]

I honestly forget if I'm voting PPS or not. vote: PPS just to make sure.

[Hydrad]

I honestly forget if I'm voting PPS or not. vote: PPS just to make sure.

huh thats interesting. I didn't realize you thought PPS was scum...

[Voltaire]

I honestly forget if I'm voting PPS or not. vote: PPS just to make sure.

huh thats interesting. I didn't realize you thought PPS was scum...

I'm calling it: I don't have time to re-read.

Here's my lynch pool, ranked, with a line separating "want to lynch" (top) from "would lynch" (bottom):

pingpongsam
silverspawn
Hydrad
XerxesPraelor
----
EgorK
Robz888
Ichimaru Gin

I will lynch any of these people above No Lynch.

[Hydrad]

sorry I was being sarcastic. I always forget that its super hard to tell that just through text. Ya I know that you have been pushing PPS for a long time.

[EgorK]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

Is it only me who appreciate all the hard work faust had put into flavor?

[silverspawn]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

Is it only me who appreciate all the hard work faust had put into flavor?

you can do that, but it doesn't really have any content. didn't you want to post your reads?

[EgorK]

So, pacov/ash thing. It is very strange case by ash, not that I am surprised. I think main idea behind this is to stir the game. That's why he selected someone who had not played with him yet. I still have mixed feeling about pacov reaction, slightly scummy here. I already told that I refuse to judge ash day 1, especcially with all this hints at him being PR

[EgorK]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

Is it only me who appreciate all the hard work faust had put into flavor?

you can do that, but it doesn't really have any content. didn't you want to post your reads?

That was part of justification why I think WW is not full IC, just strong town read. Long justification, yes, but still

[Voltaire]

Anyone know scum!EgorK?

[Witherweaver]

Nah, not really.. I think his only scum game was Greater Idea.

[Teproc]

Nah, not really.. I think his only scum game was Greater Idea.

In which he mega-lurked, correct ?

[Witherweaver]

Nah, not really.. I think his only scum game was Greater Idea.

In which he mega-lurked, correct ?

He's lurked as much or more in his Town games.

[Teproc]

I know, I was just checking because I don't remember much about Greater Idea.

I remember the EgorK mislynch in Stack the Deck, which I was totally on board with. He had done more n that game though.

[pacovf]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

I will when they're this obvious.

Not even then, please.

I get your point, and I know I sometimes do this too much, but is this really all you have to say about this game ?

I'm with Teproc in this one, we don't really need to discuss what flavour scum has a third time, do we?

And yes, Robz, we would like to hear more from you. It's kinda weird that you snipe Teproc for this, but don't say anything about any of the other things that have been happening.

[pacovf]

Mmm, EgorK, Ichimaru Gin, do you want to put your vote somewhere?

[EgorK]

Mmm, EgorK, Ichimaru Gin, do you want to put your vote somewhere?

I'll go ahead and vote: XP. I agree with case that was laid out 4 or 5 pages back

I'll also ok with pps, I do not know where self vote is in his meta, but that generally considered bad

I see totally see town Hydrad here

[pacovf]

Have all the people that think that Hydrad is town seen this post of mine? What do you think?

Also I don't want part of my meta to be is one of peoples top scum reads every day1 in mafia...

This is the second time he does something like this. Here's the first.

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

The first time (his first response to people voting for him) struck me as trying to minimize those votes before the wagon got traction. This second time, it's starting to sound like "I might end up default-lynched" desperate.

Seriously guys, vote.

[ashersky]

Vote Count ash.1.

pacovf (2): ashersky, Robz888
EgorK (2): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (3): Teproc, Witherweaver, Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, Azadin, pacovf, egork

Not Voting (1): Ichimaru Gin

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon.



So egork put XP to L-2.

[Hydrad]

wait pacofv isn't on me but he keeps trying to make me seem scummy?

[Witherweaver]

wait pacofv isn't on me but he keeps trying to make me seem scummy?

He keeps posting to convince himself to vote for you.

[Ichimaru Gin]

ok phone posting.  Tempted to vote for XP. I haven't seen too much of the rest of the case, but the one vote on Hydra just looked really opportunistic. I remember that from the beginning.

Also, how long until deadline?

[Hydrad]

ok phone posting.  Tempted to vote for XP. I haven't seen too much of the rest of the case, but the one vote on Hydra just looked really opportunistic. I remember that from the beginning.

Also, how long until deadline?

Looks like 2 days ish

[pacovf]

wait pacofv isn't on me but he keeps trying to make me seem scummy?

He keeps posting to convince himself to vote for you.

I would rather lynch Hydrad than XP, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen anymore. Still, if someone could actually answer my question, that would be great.

[silverspawn]

wait pacofv isn't on me but he keeps trying to make me seem scummy?

He keeps posting to convince himself to vote for you.

I would rather lynch Hydrad than XP, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen anymore. Still, if someone could actually answer my question, that would be great.

I have seen it. I don't know if/why it's more likely for scum!hydrad to do this than town!hydrad.

[Robz888]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

I will when they're this obvious.

Not even then, please.

I get your point, and I know I sometimes do this too much, but is this really all you have to say about this game ?

I've said other things.

[pacovf]

wait pacofv isn't on me but he keeps trying to make me seem scummy?

He keeps posting to convince himself to vote for you.

I would rather lynch Hydrad than XP, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen anymore. Still, if someone could actually answer my question, that would be great.

I have seen it. I don't know if/why it's more likely for scum!hydrad to do this than town!hydrad.

Town tries to understand the cases made on them, not minimize them without apparent reason.

The second comment came out of nowhere, at a time the case on him wasn't even the focus of the discussion.

Both strike me more as nervous scum, rather than town.

I've said other things.

Yes, that WW is an IC, that Voltaire is a town read, and that I am not super townie.

[Teproc]

EgorK, why were you talking about the Greyjoy's?

The opening flavour implies that scum is Greyjoy-affiliated.

Don't answer other people's questions for them.

I will when they're this obvious.

Not even then, please.

I get your point, and I know I sometimes do this too much, but is this really all you have to say about this game ?

I've said other things.

Mind saying them again, Your Highness ?

[Robz888]

I read townie on WW, ash, and Voltaire. I'll add you (Teproc) to that list, actually. I'm currently voting for pacovf, since I find him scummy. Not so sold on XP, PPS, or Egork.

[Witherweaver]

ok phone posting.  Tempted to vote for XP. I haven't seen too much of the rest of the case, but the one vote on Hydra just looked really opportunistic. I remember that from the beginning.

Also, how long until deadline?

Your willingness to vote for XP seems opportunistic!

[Ichimaru Gin]

ok phone posting.  Tempted to vote for XP. I haven't seen too much of the rest of the case, but the one vote on Hydra just looked really opportunistic. I remember that from the beginning.

Also, how long until deadline?

Your willingness to vote for XP seems opportunistic!

This is a joke right?
Because I mentioned my read on him and his vote way, way back in this thread--multiple times. Whatever, you do want to lynch someone today right?
We had more time left than I thought, so that's something, but I feel like my intent to vote is in the right place right now.

[pacovf]

ok phone posting.  Tempted to vote for XP. I haven't seen too much of the rest of the case, but the one vote on Hydra just looked really opportunistic. I remember that from the beginning.

Also, how long until deadline?

Your willingness to vote for XP seems opportunistic!

This is a joke right?
Because I mentioned my read on him and his vote way, way back in this thread--multiple times. Whatever, you do want to lynch someone today right?

Mmm, you do mention that he's scummy, but then he's absent from your lynchpool, and later you mention that he's townier and probably didn't read him correctly the first time around. Then you state your willingness to vote for him because reasons you had indeed already stated.

I agree with the need to lynch someone, though.

We had more time left than I thought, so that's something

40 hours.

[ashersky]

pacovf, what do you think about lynching pacovf?

[Robz888]

pacovf, what do you think about lynching pacovf?

I actually laughed out loud when I read this.

[Witherweaver]

I'm pretty sure there's only one right answer to this question.

[pacovf]

pacovf, what do you think about lynching pacovf?

Right now? Worst possible lynch, second only to WW.

[pacovf]

I think I am getting a townier feel from Ichi. I don't think scum opens the possibility of a mislynch, then some time later closes that option for no apparent reason. Of course, there's also the possibility that they're scumpartners, Ichi tried some distancing, but gave up his read to avoid the bus, but now thinks that XP is going down and he might as well get the towncred. But considering that Ichi hasn't been superactive (sick), that second option seems too bold. So slight townread.

I would also say that I think it is highly unlikely that both Hydrad and XP are scum. XP jumped on Hydrad's wagon quickly, and Hydrad responded by saying how scummy his vote was and voting for him. It seems unlikely that something like that would happen if they are scumpartners.

[Witherweaver]

I think I am getting a townier feel from Ichi. I don't think scum opens the possibility of a mislynch, then some time later closes that option for no apparent reason. Of course, there's also the possibility that they're scumpartners, Ichi tried some distancing, but gave up his read to avoid the bus, but now thinks that XP is going down and he might as well get the towncred. But considering that Ichi hasn't been superactive (sick), that second option seems too bold. So slight townread.

I would also say that I think it is highly unlikely that both Hydrad and XP are scum. XP jumped on Hydrad's wagon quickly, and Hydrad responded by saying how scummy his vote was and voting for him. It seems unlikely that something like that would happen if they are scumpartners.

I don't agree, that scum partners can replicate that easily. 

On a similar note, I think if one of Ichi/Volt turns up scum, the other is more likely scum.

[silverspawn]

okay one last reread. on IG

--

well, there was a comment about how he blends in and doesn't really do anything that sticks out, and that's basically nailing it. he's passive, but not at all lurking. he's friendly, but not overly so. one of the few things he did was having an argument with pacof, which seems sincere to me. and the thing with voltaire, because voltaire was voting without any reason and then complaining that we complain.

there are not really any posts that stand out, but I'll list a few

about his blending in:

If I am right that IG is scum for this specific reason, then there's not really a "case" to respond to, because the case is "blends in". Which explains the annoyance and harping that I have "no case" that scum has done in the past.

No you're right. If there were to be a case against me, this'd probably be it.
I mean, I was sick for a long, long time. Been around middling participation. I don't know, I've tried to comment on everything I thought was important, but I can see that I haven't exactly stood out. That's kinda my regular D1 unless someone starts a case on me and then I get to defend myself and look scummy

PPE: 2

about his lynch pool:

I'm sure no one is interested, but if one were to do a targeted re-read of pacovf, they would see that his posting style (that is, syntax, punctuation, etc.) has changed since I made my fully articulated case.  Less commas, longer sentences, bigger paragraphs.

Now, maybe he went from phone posting to computer posting.  Or maybe he consciously or unconsciously changed his writing style based on those cues.

I think we should lynch someone today, by the way.  No lynch at the deadline just helps no one but scum.

There's a part of me that's thinking about joining you ash. . .
For sure, no lynch today sucks. I really hope Voltaire still doesn't want to lynch me today, because that's just stupid. Despite what I said earlier, it still gives me a bad feeling about him.

Today, I think I want to lynch out of: pacovf, PPS, or Voltaire. I could do Robz or EgorK as lurker lynches, but those are probably less useful.

his read post:

Wow. That is a pretty insane D1 pool!

Bah. It's pretty late and I should go to bed. But one more post, since I got a lot of homework done and have a few minutes.

Some light reads on everyone

silverspawn: I liked that he didn't jump on the Hydrad wagon, so slight town points for that.

pacovf: Mmm. Hard to tell. Definitely been active, defending himself against a lot of strong accusation from Ash.

ashersky: daaaamn. I can never read Ash that well. I feel more town here, but I can't recall scum!ash although I'm sure I played with him.

Hydrad: I actually feel pretty townie on Hydrad. I feel like he's gotten some flack for some inconsequential stuff. I don't know, I like his participation and I don't really see the accusations about low content--I mean there will always be some empty posts from everyone.

Witherweaver: Hmm. I was his scumbud in the last game I recall with him. I really have no idea here though. I don't think he's an IC though. (So I guess I agree with ash there).

Teproc: nullish. I feel like he's been good at trying to keep things on track.

XerxesPraelor: I find his Hydrad vote very opportunnistic and mentally flagged the post at the time, planning to respond to it later.

EgorK: What 2 posts? Null.

Robz888: Really hard to read Robz.

Ichimaru Gin: obv town. Michigan is back!!

pingpongsam: Seems resigned to being lynched with few votes on him. Kind of scummy in that regard.

azadin: Nullish. Seems like he's paying attention, so slight town.

Voltaire: I felt very bad about scum!Voltaire in Dice Mafia. I don't really get that feeling here. Not sure if that's the best logic, but it's what I got.

and this one is kinda characteristic:

So. . .who's going down today?
We got what, 2 days left now? I'm feeling a little townier on XP, in that I'm pretty sure I was reading him incorrectly before. Still seems like a lot of people want to lynch Hydrad--I'll have to reread him for myself and see if there's anything I missed.

so, that probably looks towny all in all. but I take it that he's a fairly experienced player, so it could just be careful, solid scum play. it's pretty null. maybe he's ever so slightly on the towny side. I'd still be willing to lynch him over no-lynch, but it doesn't look like it matters anyway. definitely not a case that I want to push.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.7

pacovf (2): ashersky, Robz888
EgorK (2): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (3): Teproc, Witherweaver, Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, pacovf, EgorK

Not Voting (1): Ichimaru Gin

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 24 hours.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Pacovf

[Teproc]

Vote: Pacovf

I'll bite.

vote : Pacovf

[pacovf]

If you want me to react, you need to tell me why you are voting for me.

If you just want to lynch me, carry on.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmm. Noting that you guys both switched from PPS. Any particular reason other than his wagon seems to be stalling?

And I see I'm the only one not voting. I think it's been that way for a little while now. The discussion around me/XP and me/Voltaire is interesting. However, I am completely up for lynching either one of them (although I don't see Voltaire happening right now). I can see the argument there, and I have been known to bus as scum, but that'd completely suck if my reads on them were right and then I got killed for it. Actually, I could see this as a pretty brilliant move from scum trying to stop me from attacking their partners. Still, it could also just be people looking at what I did in Stack the Deck with WW, which was pretty similar I guess.

Anyway, I'm ready to vote, but I'm in more of a hammering mood today, so will be around to do that when needed. I still prefer XP over pacovf I think.

[silverspawn]

deadline is coming closer. not the best time for this to stall.

I'm still on XP, though I admit a lot of it is due to lack of alternatives. still, I don't think his case is that bad.

[pacovf]

Talking about deadlines, I won't be around for long tomorrow, and not at all for the last 5 hours before the deadline itself.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think those voting for Egork (XP and PPS) should move their votes to one of the larger wagons.

[Voltaire]

Vote: Pacovf

Vote: Pacovf

I'll bite.

vote : Pacovf

If you two can give me reasons, I'll consider.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Pacovf

Vote: Pacovf

I'll bite.

vote : Pacovf

If you two can give me reasons, I'll consider.

Ash will be very upset if we don't lynch Pacovf.

[Witherweaver]

Also he listed himself the second-worst possible lynch after me.  Scum is much more likely to assign me uber IC status than town is, because they know I actually am town.  Teproc deserved some suspicion for this, but he's been fairly town throughout, and then way our discussion went down makes me not think it was a grasp-for-town-cred scum move by Teproc.

Second reason is just general feeling and lack of a strong scum read on anyone else.

Third reason is, I actually do trust Ash's instincts.

Fourth reason is, lots and lots of interactions.  (My least-favorite reason for lynches, but it is something.)

[Voltaire]

When did Teproc list himself after you?

[silverspawn]

Also he listed himself the second-worst possible lynch after me.  Scum is much more likely to assign me uber IC status than town is, because they know I actually am town.  Teproc deserved some suspicion for this, but he's been fairly town throughout, and then way our discussion went down makes me not think it was a grasp-for-town-cred scum move by Teproc.

I'm also treating you as a guaranteed IC. I have accepted the possibility of you being scum as unlikely enough to bet on it. I don't think this makes him scummy.

[pacovf]

Also he listed himself the second-worst possible lynch after me.  Scum is much more likely to assign me uber IC status than town is, because they know I actually am town.  Teproc deserved some suspicion for this, but he's been fairly town throughout, and then way our discussion went down makes me not think it was a grasp-for-town-cred scum move by Teproc.

I don't give you uber town-status. But I don't think I will ever look like a townread to the general population of this game, and as long as I live, a proportion of the players will be losing time and energy focusing on me, instead of more useful targets. I don't think that will happen in your case. I am willing to risk the small possibility of you faking that interaction with Teproc for a more focused town. Plus, if you are scum, you will eventually get suspected if you reach, say D5.

I agree with your last point; I am strongly against an EgorK lynch, aferall. I've contributed, like 18% of all posts ever D1. You'll need some time to reread my interactions, though.

Reasons 2 and 3 are bad.

[Voltaire]

Anyone willing to swing the other way and lynch ash?

[pacovf]

Not today. But definitely.

[Witherweaver]

When did Teproc list himself after you?

We're talking about Pacovf.

[Teproc]

My vote has nothing to dow ith trusting ash, obviously. I agree with the other reasons WW listed : when he listed WW after rhim in "least favorite lynches", I went back to being wary about him.

Also I just think there has to be a scum among the groupe that did a lot of theory talk, and pacovf is the most likely.

I'll be honest : a lot of this is that I've been feeling uneasy about him for a few pages now, but I can't point to something to really justify it. I'd rather lynch PPS or Ichi, but when I saw WW switch I figured it could be something worth exploring. I don't like the XP lynch all that much.

[Teproc]

Anyone willing to swing the other way and lynch ash?

Better than no lynch for sure. Probably better than XP too. But I'm not super excited about it.

[Voltaire]

When did Teproc list himself after you?

We're talking about Pacovf.

I know, but you implied Teproc did the same thing, yet you found him town for it, no? Just trying to understand this as it relates to Pavlof.

[Voltaire]

I'll be honest : a lot of this is that I've been feeling uneasy about him for a few pages now, but I can't point to something to really justify it. I'd rather lynch PPS or Ichi, but when I saw WW switch I figured it could be something worth exploring. I don't like the XP lynch all that much.

I have thought the exact same thing and am also willing to sheep you but for fear of D1 reads holds me back. Though I'm actually going V/LA soon, so I need to decide quickly.

[Teproc]

When did Teproc list himself after you?

We're talking about Pacovf.

I know, but you implied Teproc did the same thing, yet you found him town for it, no? Just trying to understand this as it relates to Pavlof.

He's referring to the fact that I was the one who argued that WW is an IC in the first place.

[Witherweaver]

My vote has nothing to dow ith trusting ash, obviously. I agree with the other reasons WW listed : when he listed WW after rhim in "least favorite lynches", I went back to being wary about him.

Also I just think there has to be a scum among the groupe that did a lot of theory talk, and pacovf is the most likely.

I'll be honest : a lot of this is that I've been feeling uneasy about him for a few pages now, but I can't point to something to really justify it. I'd rather lynch PPS or Ichi, but when I saw WW switch I figured it could be something worth exploring. I don't like the XP lynch all that much.

Oh yes, Pac's super heavy theory talk is part of what caused my read.

I don't want to lynch XP.  I'm pretty "meh" about Ichi.  PPS I could do.  I think it's slightly suspicious that the wagon did not take off, given that it would be a pretty easy lynch to push through today.  This could mean scum doesn't want to bus, or scum doesn't want to be on the "obvious wagon".  Not sure which one.

[Witherweaver]

When did Teproc list himself after you?

We're talking about Pacovf.

I know, but you implied Teproc did the same thing, yet you found him town for it, no? Just trying to understand this as it relates to Pavlof.

He's referring to the fact that I was the one who argued that WW is an IC in the first place.

Yeah, and it didn't seem that opportunistic coming from you.  Coming from others it does.

[Voltaire]

Well, I would prefer PPS but am now totally willing to vote for pacof.

[pacovf]

Also I just think there has to be a scum among the groupe that did a lot of theory talk, and pacovf is the most likely.

Who were the people doing theory talk?

Oh yes, Pac's super heavy theory talk is part of what caused my read.

If I understand correctly, people doing heavy theory talk is scummy because it lets people look like contributing while they really aren't. I've basically been present in everything that has happened, whether it was theory talk or scumhunting. So I don't really think you should base your read on that.

Yeah, and it didn't seem that opportunistic coming from you.  Coming from others it does.

Hasn't the vast majority of players granted you pseudo-IC status?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd rather lynch PPS or Ichi

I can't put into words how tired I am of people saying they'll lynch me and providing absolutely no information or backing whatsoever--because there is no case against me. Look, I was sick and had to go the ER earlier this week--and apparently I haven't stood out, not that that's out of my meta. All those who do so (Voltaire, pacovf, Teproc) are much more likely scum in my mind.

[Witherweaver]

Also I just think there has to be a scum among the groupe that did a lot of theory talk, and pacovf is the most likely.

Who were the people doing theory talk?

Oh yes, Pac's super heavy theory talk is part of what caused my read.

If I understand correctly, people doing heavy theory talk is scummy because it lets people look like contributing while they really aren't. I've basically been present in everything that has happened, whether it was theory talk or scumhunting. So I don't really think you should base your read on that.

Yeah, and it didn't seem that opportunistic coming from you.  Coming from others it does.

Hasn't the vast majority of players granted you pseudo-IC status?

Some have stood out as eager to bring it up.

[Teproc]

Good for you Ichi. We're giving you stuff to do !

The truth is : I have a lot of town reads in this game. You a egiven me no reasons to think you're town, so I'd be fine with lynching you. That's just how it is. It's not a case, but it's enough, at least for me.

[Teproc]

There should be a "have" somewhere in there.

[Witherweaver]

PoE: Annoying scum since whateverVoltsaiditwasfunnywhenhedidit

[pacovf]

Some have stood out as eager to bring it up.

Bring what up? Your pseudo-IC status? I've posted much more than most other people. If you are only counting the number of times event X happened in player Y's posts, I'm certainly going to come on top.

[Teproc]

pacovf : people who have done a lot of theory talk include you, me, Voltaire, WW, silver, and to a lesser extent azadin.

[pacovf]

pacovf : people who have done a lot of theory talk include you, me, Voltaire, WW, silver, and to a lesser extent azadin.

I see. Not very useful for me, all of them are townreads, except silver. I can understand your reasoning, even if of course I don't appreciate your conclusion. Theory talk in this setup is definitely good for town, the fact that scum can hide in there only brings you that far.

I guess I could consider who tried to avoid the possibility of an hypotetical empowered-Lannister cop. But that points towards you, Voltaire, and WW. It seems a tad weak, considering everything else you people have done makes me think town.

Meh.

[Teproc]

Right, it's not a strong case. I have no strong case. The best I have is PPS (still my preferred lynch), but it's not happening, so I'm exploring other possibilities.

[silverspawn]

P seemed towny to me. the only reason I have to lynch him is ash. which, for me, is enough of an argument to promote him over no-lynch.

[silverspawn]

but i'd still much rather do XP or Egork

why don't we just do XP?

[Teproc]

P seemed towny to me. the only reason I have to lynch him is ash. which, for me, is enough of an argument to promote him over no-lynch.

I'm not sure I understand this, from you or WW. Why is ash's opinion that important to you ? First of all he could be scum, but more importantly he could be wrong, as much as anyone else ? What makes this an argument ?

[Voltaire]

ash has thought obv!town masons were scum. ash has also correctly tunneled full scumteams on D1. So...

[Teproc]

but i'd still much rather do XP or Egork

why don't we just do XP?

Fine with Egork, but I don't like the XP lynch. I don't like the way the wagon has built up way too easily, and I have a town read on him based on his reaction to ash's case. Also the case against him is errative coting which is not an alignment tell for him.

[silverspawn]

What makes this an argument ?

ash is probably the best mafia player in f.ds, no? doesn't he also have the third highest winrate out of everyone?

If i knew for sure that he is serious with his case, I'd give even more weight to it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PoE: Annoying scum since whateverVoltsaiditwasfunnywhenhedidit

Thanks Mr. IC 

To be fair, I don't have that many townreads this game. I could easily see a Volt/Teproc scumteam. And I forget who it was, but I stand with whoever thinks POE D1 is pretty much nonsense.

POE D1: Let's lynch someone random but call it POE so it sounds more reasonable!
Or even better, just give scum a good excuse for a mislynch.

Whatever, I've never been mislynched before, and don't plan on being lynched today. Especially not on the "feelings" of one or two people when others "feel" like I'm townie.

[Teproc]

Alright Ichi, who do you want to lynch, and go ahead and explain me that it's not based on "feelings" ?

[XerxesPraelor]

Ash/pacovf scumteam is possible. Ash seems to be really going over the top in how bad his case was, and maybe was counting on this from discouraging people from voting him at all. Pacovf has actually looked slightly scummy to me besides what ash was saying.

[Voltaire]

I actually now think this is town IG, because I'm pretty sure my game where he was scum!MVP didn't have him get pissed off when he got heat.

[Voltaire]

Though of course I disagree 100% with everything he's said, especially the insinuation that I'm arguing for random lynches, which is just 

[silverspawn]

Ash/pacovf scumteam is possible. Ash seems to be really going over the top in how bad his case was, and maybe was counting on this from discouraging people from voting him at all. Pacovf has actually looked slightly scummy to me besides what ash was saying.

isn't it very convenient that the other biggest wagon is on a scum read?

[Witherweaver]

ash has thought obv!town masons were scum. ash has also correctly tunneled full scumteams on D1. So...

But in that same game, he nailed the scum team Day 1.

[Teproc]

I actually now think this is town IG, because I'm pretty sure my game where he was scum!MVP didn't have him get pissed off when he got heat.

I don't remember him getting heat at all in that game... I do remember him reacting very strongly in DWII, but that was his first game so meh.

[Witherweaver]

I actually now think this is town IG, because I'm pretty sure my game where he was scum!MVP didn't have him get pissed off when he got heat.

He fake OMGUSd me when I did some bussing on him.

[Voltaire]

I actually now think this is town IG, because I'm pretty sure my game where he was scum!MVP didn't have him get pissed off when he got heat.

He fake OMGUSd me when I did some bussing on him.

So, same as here or different?

[pacovf]

but i'd still much rather do XP or Egork

why don't we just do XP?

Fine with Egork, but I don't like the XP lynch. I don't like the way the wagon has built up way too easily, and I have a town read on him based on his reaction to ash's case. Also the case against him is errative coting which is not an alignment tell for him.

I wouldn't say that XP's wagon has built up too easily, it was sleeping around since forever (well, since Hydrad kinda OMGUS him and people said "not a bad case actually"). It was reanimated as the deadline approached. The other possibilities at the time were Hydrad and PPS, I think.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And I guess no one remembers that I got *quite* a bit of heat from Robz when I thought there were two nightkills.

[Teproc]

And I guess no one remembers that I got *quite* a bit of heat from Robz when I thought there were two nightkills.

Right, but that was Robz being silly.

[Witherweaver]

I actually now think this is town IG, because I'm pretty sure my game where he was scum!MVP didn't have him get pissed off when he got heat.

He fake OMGUSd me when I did some bussing on him.

So, same as here or different?

Well, it looks much the same as town or scum. This was why I said if one if you flips scum the other looks worse.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And I guess no one remembers that I got *quite* a bit of heat from Robz when I thought there were two nightkills.

Right, but that was Robz being silly.

It really had me worried though. Especially since I thought I was going to get lynched over a stupid mistake and cost my team the game.

PPE: 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

Alright Ichi, who do you want to lynch, and go ahead and explain me that it's not based on "feelings" ?

I've already said that I want to lynch XP. This is based mostly on the opportunistic vote he made on Hydrad. Although I know others have since added some additional weight to the case. And look, I know it's not the strongest case, but he's acted verifiable scummy in more than a few instances this game.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Though of course I disagree 100% with everything he's said, especially the insinuation that I'm arguing for random lynches, which is just 

Sure, I know there's a bit more to it than that. But when I see you ready to lynch town!me on some sort of reverse-logic case, it looks pretty random to me.

[Teproc]

Alright Ichi, who do you want to lynch, and go ahead and explain me that it's not based on "feelings" ?

I've already said that I want to lynch XP. This is based mostly on the opportunistic vote he made on Hydrad. Although I know others have since added some additional weight to the case. And look, I know it's not the strongest case, but he's acted verifiable scummy in more than a few instances this game.

There's not such thing as "verifiably scummy".

[Ichimaru Gin]

Alright Ichi, who do you want to lynch, and go ahead and explain me that it's not based on "feelings" ?

I've already said that I want to lynch XP. This is based mostly on the opportunistic vote he made on Hydrad. Although I know others have since added some additional weight to the case. And look, I know it's not the strongest case, but he's acted verifiable scummy in more than a few instances this game.

There's not such thing as "verifiably scummy".

Then "recognized by most as at least softly indicating an individual having a non-town alignment"

[Teproc]

Yeah but here's the thing : erratic voting might be a scum tell for me or for yuma, but it's not for XP, because he does this regardless of alignment. It's not particularly townie, but it's definitely not scummy either.

[pacovf]

I don't think "erratic" was the word used, but "opportunistic". In the original case by Hydrad, that you actually liked, he said that he was basically absent for a long while, then voted for him right as the two first votes dropped, and then disappeared again.

[pacovf]

The only reason making me wary of his wagon is that at a certain point in the game, he was in nearly everyone's "would like to lynch/would rather lynch than have no-lynch" lists. Which I don't think has happened with anyone else.

[Voltaire]

No longer willing to lynch pacof.

Seriously, we need movement. If PPS isn't happening, then vote: silver? Or did no-one want to do that?

[silverspawn]

No longer willing to lynch pacof.

Seriously, we need movement. If PPS isn't happening, then vote: silver? Or did no-one want to do that?

I'd rather not.

[pacovf]

I don't have a strong read one way or another. Has anyone seen scum!silverspawn?

[Hydrad]

scum silverspawn hasn't shown his face yet I believe

[silverspawn]

In my very first game, I flipped survivor. that's not scum, but it's not town. so, there you go.

[Hydrad]

In my very first game, I flipped survivor. that's not scum, but it's not town. so, there you go.

also that was a BM game though. So i don't know if people fully count those or not?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm going to sheep Volt here as I also found pacovf's recent posts much more townie.

You really want to lynch silver though? That makes about as much sense as lynching me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

How about vote: Egork
I don't think he's posted almost anything more, and I may like his lynch best of all right now.

[Teproc]

How about vote: Egork
I don't think he's posted almost anything more, and I may like his lynch best of all right now.

Sure. I should note that given how high and mighty you're acting with people who proposed to lynch you for very similar reasons, this is highly hypocritical (yes Egork has lurked a lot more than you and you've had a V/LA, but still).

vote : Egork

[Hydrad]

I'm ok with a egork lynch just for the fact that hes lurking pretty hard and I don't like letting lurkers live till the end of the game. But I still like my XP vote more. But if we get to the end of the day I would lynch egork over a nolynch

[ashersky]

pacovf : people who have done a lot of theory talk include you, me, Voltaire, WW, silver, and to a lesser extent azadin.

I see. Not very useful for me, all of them are townreads, except silver. I can understand your reasoning, even if of course I don't appreciate your conclusion. Theory talk in this setup is definitely good for town, the fact that scum can hide in there only brings you that far.

I guess I could consider who tried to avoid the possibility of an hypotetical empowered-Lannister cop. But that points towards you, Voltaire, and WW. It seems a tad weak, considering everything else you people have done makes me think town.

Meh.

The bolded line is a huge scumtell.

[ashersky]

Also he listed himself the second-worst possible lynch after me.  Scum is much more likely to assign me uber IC status than town is, because they know I actually am town.  Teproc deserved some suspicion for this, but he's been fairly town throughout, and then way our discussion went down makes me not think it was a grasp-for-town-cred scum move by Teproc.

Second reason is just general feeling and lack of a strong scum read on anyone else.

Third reason is, I actually do trust Ash's instincts.

Fourth reason is, lots and lots of interactions.  (My least-favorite reason for lynches, but it is something.)

That IC thing was my immediate thought when he posted it.  Only scum lists another unconfirmed player above them seriously on a lynch list.  Only scum knows if he's town or not.

[pacovf]

No longer willing to lynch pacof.

I'm going to sheep Volt here as I also found pacovf's recent posts much more townie.

Not sure which posts of mine you people have been reading, but huh, yay me?

How about vote: Egork
I don't think he's posted almost anything more, and I may like his lynch best of all right now.

What do we do tomorrow if he flips town? We'll have basically no new information, because people will be shunning all responsibility faster than dropping a dead baby (is that the expression?). "He was lurking hard" is like the perfect excuse.

Are you really that sure that he is scum that you are willing to risk a D2 with basically no new information? Barring PRs, of course.

Not even sure if I prefer EgorK to no-lynch. Tomorrow, maybe, if he keeps lurking. But not today.

[pacovf]

Hello Ash!

[Teproc]

I agree about the lack of info in an Egork lynch (that's why I liked the idea of lynching you), but who else are you suggesting again pacovf ?

[ashersky]

Greetings.

[silverspawn]

Are you really that sure that he is scum that you are willing to risk a D2 with basically no new information? Barring PRs, of course.

mh, I hadn't even considered that. on the other hand, lynching lurkers is better in games without any big reads. but you're right, we risk a lot when lynching egork.

[pacovf]

I agree about the lack of info in an Egork lynch (that's why I liked the idea of lynching you), but who else are you suggesting again pacovf ?

XP, Hydrad, would be my favoured lynches.

I could see silverspawn. PPS, I don't see your case, too meta-based, and blindly sheeping you seems like a bad idea. The fact that the wagon hasn't budged is telling, though. Could you restate the case?

[silverspawn]

ash, what do you think about an Egork, and, more importantly, about an XP lynch?

[Teproc]

I agree about the lack of info in an Egork lynch (that's why I liked the idea of lynching you), but who else are you suggesting again pacovf ?

XP, Hydrad, would be my favoured lynches.

I could see silverspawn. PPS, I don't see your case, too meta-based, and blindly sheeping you seems like a bad idea. The fact that the wagon hasn't budged is telling, though. Could you restate the case?

PPS has a meta of being crazy as town (he once claimed VT early D1 and got lynched for it). He wasn't adhering to it, but was defending ash for it. Then I voted for him (and Voltaire too I think), and he self-voted. This seemed to me like an over the top attempt to imitate his town meta.

[silverspawn]

19 hours to the deadline

[pacovf]

I agree about the lack of info in an Egork lynch (that's why I liked the idea of lynching you), but who else are you suggesting again pacovf ?

XP, Hydrad, would be my favoured lynches.

I could see silverspawn. PPS, I don't see your case, too meta-based, and blindly sheeping you seems like a bad idea. The fact that the wagon hasn't budged is telling, though. Could you restate the case?

PPS has a meta of being crazy as town (he once claimed VT early D1 and got lynched for it). He wasn't adhering to it, but was defending ash for it. Then I voted for him (and Voltaire too I think), and he self-voted. This seemed to me like an over the top attempt to imitate his town meta.

It's alright, I can kinda see it. But I haven't read any game with PPS, so if I voted for him I would be doing the same thing you are accusing WW and silverspawn of doing (in their case, being inclined to lynch me because Ash says so).

The other thing that bothers me is that he is kinda V/LA, right? If we reach intent to hammer, he might not have a chance to claim.

I guess I could lynch him over a no-lynch, but rather because I have townreads on most other people, and no-lynch is bad.

[Ichimaru Gin]

How about vote: Egork
I don't think he's posted almost anything more, and I may like his lynch best of all right now.

Sure. I should note that given how high and mighty you're acting with people who proposed to lynch you for very similar reasons, this is highly hypocritical (yes Egork has lurked a lot more than you and you've had a V/LA, but still).

vote : Egork

K. Go ahead and note it. I'm "high and mighty" ? Ok.
Nope, the proposed reasons for my lynch are quite a bit different than Egork's. One is almost completely based off of lurking--we're talking 11 posts here. And the case against me is supposed POE "he hasn't shown himself to be that townie". For the record, I have 42 posts.

I don't entirely know why you felt the need to say that I am being a hypocrite. Not to mention the fact that I am more than around to respond to accusation against me, while EgorK is obviously not.

In EgorK's case (at least for me), him simply posting a fair amount more would mostly clear him in my eyes.

As to your read on me though, I really have no way of proving to you that I am townie. It seems that you have chosen to consider me guilty until proven innocent I guess.

And concerning POE, I know that I do not understand all of the though processes or theory behind it. But the reasoning behind whether someone is eliminated from a given player's lynch pool doesn't seem all that logical to me in most instances.

PPE:

I agree about the lack of info in an Egork lynch (that's why I liked the idea of lynching you), but who else are you suggesting again pacovf ?

Why did you vote for Egork again?

[Teproc]

I voted Egork because he's a better lynch than XP.

Guilty until proven innocent, really ? Mafia as a game is the complete reverse of that.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I voted Egork because he's a better lynch than XP.

Guilty until proven innocent, really ? Mafia as a game is the complete reverse of that.

Then why did you want to lynch me?

[ashersky]

ash, what do you think about an Egork, and, more importantly, about an XP lynch?

I believe they are both in my meh column.

[Teproc]

I voted Egork because he's a better lynch than XP.

Guilty until proven innocent, really ? Mafia as a game is the complete reverse of that.

Then why did you want to lynch me?

What in the post you quote is a reason against lynching you ?

[Witherweaver]

Ichi what you say about PoE can't be true.. all PoE is doing is saying "well, I don't want to vote for these people because I think they're town, so I better focus on these others".  You implicitly do this when you list a bunch of reads and have town reads in there.  Voltaire's "PoE" isn't any different than anyone else's "list all the currently alive players and say what you think about them", except there is different formatting.

PPEs, blah

[Ichimaru Gin]

I voted Egork because he's a better lynch than XP.

Guilty until proven innocent, really ? Mafia as a game is the complete reverse of that.

Then why did you want to lynch me?

What in the post you quote is a reason against lynching you ?

The quote that you quoted of me saying guilty until proven innocent is regarding your desire to lynch me.

[ashersky]

A pacovf lynch gives us so much to analyze.  His wagon speed (and lack thereof), his supporters and detractors, his reads, his theories...there's a lot there.

What egor, et al. get us?  One less player to think about.

I'm not usually a lynch for info guy.  But with a 50+ page D1?  I'm thinking for the sake of the game, it's important.  Scum benefits greatly from people not rereading.

[silverspawn]

ash, what do you think about an Egork, and, more importantly, about an XP lynch?

I believe they are both in my meh column.

is there someone else you would support, except P?

and what is POE?

[ashersky]

ash, what do you think about an Egork, and, more importantly, about an XP lynch?

I believe they are both in my meh column.

is there someone else you would support, except P?

and what is POE?

You mean support to lynch?  Not actively.

Process of Elimination

[Teproc]

ash, what do you think about an Egork, and, more importantly, about an XP lynch?

I believe they are both in my meh column.

is there someone else you would support, except P?

and what is POE?

Has this really never come up ? First time playing with Voltaire ?

Process of Elimination.

[pacovf]

I might be wrong but:

Unofficial Vote Count 1.pacovf

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Witherweaver
EgorK (4): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin
silverspawn (1): Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, pacovf, EgorK

I think the people voting for EgorK should reconsider.

[silverspawn]

Has this really never come up ? First time playing with Voltaire ?

it might have come up before

[Teproc]

I might be wrong but:

Unofficial Vote Count 1.pacovf

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Witherweaver
EgorK (4): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin
silverspawn (1): Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, pacovf, EgorK

I think the people voting for EgorK should reconsider.

Why ?

[silverspawn]

XP is on L-2? That's better than I thought. We can do this!

[pacovf]

Because I don't think he is scum, and he hasn't interacted with anyone, so his flip won't help town.

[pacovf]

The "I might be wrong" was referring to the vote count itself.

[Teproc]

Because I don't think he is scum, and he hasn't interacted with anyone, so his flip won't help town.

Right, I thought it had to with the vote count.

It's not like XP is a super informative lynch either.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichi what you say about PoE can't be true.. all PoE is doing is saying "well, I don't want to vote for these people because I think they're town, so I better focus on these others".  You implicitly do this when you list a bunch of reads and have town reads in there.  Voltaire's "PoE" isn't any different than anyone else's "list all the currently alive players and say what you think about them", except there is different formatting.

PPEs, blah

I find the reasoning behind the bolded part, suspect. I mean, I have nowhere near the best reads, and I'm not saying my reads are better than anyone else's--cause they aren't. I just think that the actual process of eliminating people from your pool can be kind of random. So I think it's biased towards null-reads getting lynched, which is ok I guess--except when you happen to be town and then people want to kill you because they have a null-read on you and not on others.

I can see that it does have some advantages, and is more of a process that you have to work through, which is good. I just take issue with people putting too much faith in it--especially when I know for a fact that their reads on me are wrong.

PPE: 5

I'm probably gonna stop now, as it's probably just distracting from actually lynching people.

[Ichimaru Gin]

XP is on L-2? That's better than I thought. We can do this!

I will vote XP. As I still find him quite scummy. If he flips scum, I really want to lynch Teproc tomorrow.

[pacovf]

Because I don't think he is scum, and he hasn't interacted with anyone, so his flip won't help town.

Right, I thought it had to with the vote count.

It's not like XP is a super informative lynch either.

Well, he has done stuff (vote on Ash, vote on Hydrad, vote on EgorK; he also got his wagon started by Hydrad, which I think is relevant, even if WW disagrees), and I actually think he is scum! So that's two reasons why I vastly prefer him over EgorK.

[silverspawn]

It's not like XP is a super informative lynch either.

I get that argument for lurkers, but if you don't lynch XP because of that, there aren't many players left.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: XP

I believe this is L-1

[Teproc]

It's not like XP is a super informative lynch either.

I get that argument for lurkers, but if you don't lynch XP because of that, there aren't many players left.

This is what I'm saying. I don't want to lynch XP because he's town, not because he wouldn't be an informative lynch.

[pacovf]

It's not like XP is a super informative lynch either.

I get that argument for lurkers, but if you don't lynch XP because of that, there aren't many players left.

This is what I'm saying. I don't want to lynch XP because he's town, not because he wouldn't be an informative lynch.

You've mentioned that you liked XP's vote on Ash. Why?

[Witherweaver]

No no no on XP and EgorK. XP is probably town and EgorK is just a coin flip.

Everyone vote someone more better. Like Pacovf or Silver. 

[Witherweaver]

No on Hydrad too I think.

[Witherweaver]

Can we get an official vote count?

And when is deadline?

[Witherweaver]

And don't lynch XP.

[Teproc]

Being entirely dismissive and suspicious of ash for his initial case on you seems townie to me. Scum!XP isn't that off-the cuff, he's more non-commital (I think, I need to take a quick look at Star Wars Mafia and I'll get back to you.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, we have until tomorrow at Noon.  That's not so bad.  Let's not go crazy tonight.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, yeah, PPS is a good option as well.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: PPS
?
If anything, your guy's blatant defense of XP makes me a little more secure you aren't his scumbuds--and are at least sincere in thinking he's town.

[ashersky]

Noon is 2 am my time, so I won't be around.

[pacovf]

And when is deadline?

We've got 18 hours.

I won't be here much longer though, 2-3 hours tops. I'll check in when I wake up, but I won't be here the last 5 hours before the deadline.

[Voltaire]

Happy to go back to vote: PPS.

[silverspawn]

mh, I'm null on PPS. i'll do a reread if necessary, but didn't he lurk almost as much as Egork?

[silverspawn]

or rather, almost as much

[Witherweaver]

I'm out for a while for dinner.  Don't lynch anyone!

[silverspawn]

yea, let us not lynch anyone until shortly before the deadline.

if anyone goes afk and can't come back for the deadline, he should say something in his last post, and also vote for someone.

[Ichimaru Gin]

yea, let us not lynch anyone until shortly before the deadline.

if anyone goes afk and can't come back for the deadline, he should say something in his last post, and also vote for someone.

Yes!!

Please no one leave without voting!

[pacovf]

The main problem I have with an EgorK lynch is that people are voting for him because he lurks. Tomorrow nobody will man up and say "yes I wanted to lynch EgorK", it will all be "What did you want me to do, everybody was so towny and EgorK was lurking", and well, there's nothing you can say to that, it's true. And we're back to D1, only with 2 less townies.

People voting for XP or PPS, on the other hand, will have to man up and face the consequences of their vote.

yea, let us not lynch anyone until shortly before the deadline.

if anyone goes afk and can't come back for the deadline, he should say something in his last post, and also vote for someone.

Terrible idea (the part about "shortly before deadline"). You are taking the chance to claim away from people. And if people start claiming, it will be last-minute-chaos. I'm sure I don't need to give examples. No need to lynch NAO, but definitely state intent to hammer whenever you feel happy with it. We can wait afterwards.

[Ichimaru Gin]

The main problem I have with an EgorK lynch is that people are voting for him because he lurks. Tomorrow nobody will man up and say "yes I wanted to lynch EgorK", it will all be "What did you want me to do, everybody was so towny and EgorK was lurking", and well, there's nothing you can say to that, it's true. And we're back to D1, only with 2 less townies.

People voting for XP or PPS, on the other hand, will have to man up and face the consequences of their vote.

yea, let us not lynch anyone until shortly before the deadline.

if anyone goes afk and can't come back for the deadline, he should say something in his last post, and also vote for someone.

Terrible idea (the part about "shortly before deadline"). You are taking the chance to claim away from people. And if people start claiming, it will be last-minute-chaos. I'm sure I don't need to give examples. No need to lynch NAO, but definitely state intent to hammer whenever you feel happy with it. We can wait afterwards.

Silver was being sarcastic here I think.

[pacovf]

Oh, my bad. Sarcasm and the Internet and all that.

[silverspawn]

I wasn't being sarcastic, but I meant "shortly" as in "~3 hours"

[Ichimaru Gin]

I wasn't being sarcastic, but I meant "shortly" as in "~3 hours"

You mean, you really wanted to purposefully try to wait and lynch people close to the deadline?

[Teproc]

vote : pps

[silverspawn]

I wasn't being sarcastic, but I meant "shortly" as in "~3 hours"

You mean, you really wanted to purposefully try to wait and lynch people close to the deadline?

yes, that's what i meant. why is that bad? a few hours are plenty time for people to claim.

[Teproc]

The closest we get to the deadline, the less time there is for people to claim...

[pacovf]

vote : pps

Did you finish you reread of StarWars? I'm interested in your opinion of scum!XP.

I wasn't being sarcastic, but I meant "shortly" as in "~3 hours"

You mean, you really wanted to purposefully try to wait and lynch people close to the deadline?

yes, that's what i meant. why is that bad? a few hours are plenty time for people to claim.

People not being online, people not having enough time to analyze a claim, people choosing who to vote under time pressure...

No need to wait for the last hours if at all possible.

[silverspawn]

okay, noted.

[Teproc]

I only reread XP, which was pretty quick. He voted for two people total on day 1 and one of those was clearly because he was under pressure after calling EFHW scummy but not voting for her. But in the end the problem is het got lynched on day 1 so he spent a lot of time defending himself. I think it's the only normal game he was scum in, there probably were a few RMM games but I don't know which ones.

[Voltaire]

I will be gone until deadline starting in about three hours. FYI. Though it currently doesn't seem like I'll have to move my vote, I will do so if necessary.

[Hydrad]

I should be around for deadline but will be at work. So won't be able to garentee posting a couple minutes before deadline. But I'm still going to be here for the evening and in the morning tomorrow

[pacovf]

Is the only alternative to XerxesPraelor pingpongsam?

[pacovf]

Or (ugh) EgorK?

[Hydrad]

looks like its pretty much a lurker lynch or maybe pacovf. But leaning towards a lurker lynch...

[Ichimaru Gin]

Is the only alternative to XerxesPraelor pingpongsam?

I still don't think lynching EgorK is a horrible idea. There's a reason behind lynching lurkers. They hurt town and can easily hide as scum if not pressured. Although I do admit that the dismal amount of information it would give is us not good.

PPE: ha ha

[azadin]

A pacovf lynch gives us so much to analyze.  His wagon speed (and lack thereof), his supporters and detractors, his reads, his theories...there's a lot there.

What egor, et al. get us?  One less player to think about.

I'm not usually a lynch for info guy.  But with a 50+ page D1?  I'm thinking for the sake of the game, it's important.  Scum benefits greatly from people not rereading.

I don't think pacovf is our only available option if we are going to do a lynch for information. I do agree that we SHOULD do a lynch that will give us the most information, which is why I'm against an EgorK or PPS vote right now. I just don't think either of them will give us as much information as someone like pacovf or XP.

I like the XP lynch the best of the current wagons, but I would consider pacovf if we get close.

PPE: 5

[Robz888]

Vote count?

[Witherweaver]

Briefly on while mobile.  XP was scum in Innovation.  I see no similarities.  I don't want XP to get lynched, and he feels like the "easy mislynch" of this game. 

[azadin]

Briefly on while mobile.  XP was scum in Innovation.  I see no similarities.  I don't want XP to get lynched, and he feels like the "easy mislynch" of this game.

Why does he feel like an easy mislynch?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote count?

The King has returned!!

[Voltaire]

PPS is not a content-free lynch. Many players have taken stances on him and he has actual posts of substance (though not many), which is why I think his lynch hits the sweet spot.

[pacovf]

A pacovf lynch gives us so much to analyze.  His wagon speed (and lack thereof), his supporters and detractors, his reads, his theories...there's a lot there.

What egor, et al. get us?  One less player to think about.

I'm not usually a lynch for info guy.  But with a 50+ page D1?  I'm thinking for the sake of the game, it's important.  Scum benefits greatly from people not rereading.

Oh hey missed this the first time around.

Agree that my lynch would give much information, but aren't you encouraging a kind of playstyle that harms town? If this kind of behaviour gets widespread, D1 are going to become very boring. Vote for me if you think I am scum (which I know you do), not solely because it would be informative. I mean, lynching Voltaire would probably give the most information, but nobody in his right mind would vote for him right now because of it.

If I do end up lynched, don't pay too much attention to my theories, I don't really know what I am talking about.

[pacovf]

PPS is not a content-free lynch. Many players have taken stances on him and he has actual posts of substance (though not many), which is why I think his lynch hits the sweet spot.

Can't you say the same thing of XP, though?

[pacovf]

Briefly on while mobile.  XP was scum in Innovation.  I see no similarities.  I don't want XP to get lynched, and he feels like the "easy mislynch" of this game.

What do you want us to do, then, vote for PPS? A case based on his usual meta? When he's been packing and vacationing? His self-vote was scummy, so I could lynch him if the alternative is no-lynch, but maaaaan...

[Witherweaver]

We could vote for you!  Or PPS, sure.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Briefly on while mobile.  XP was scum in Innovation.  I see no similarities.  I don't want XP to get lynched, and he feels like the "easy mislynch" of this game.

For the record, I think Hydrad was the easy mislynch of today. His wagon was all fluff.

[pacovf]

Unofficial Vote Count 1.pacovfdareturn

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Witherweaver
EgorK (4): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, pacovf, EgorK
pingpongsam (3): Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire, Teproc

We could vote for you!  Or PPS, sure.

Oh yeah, silly me, I forgot. When do we start lynching me, then? 

[Witherweaver]

XPs is like that whipped marshmallow fluff cream stuff, it's so fluffy.

[pacovf]

ggaaah fail. Again:

Unofficial Vote Count 1.pacovferrata

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Witherweaver
EgorK (2): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, pacovf, EgorK
pingpongsam (3): Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire, Teproc

Any errors?

[silverspawn]

maybe something completely new? Voltaire? no idea, for some reason i have zero reads on him, he's even more null than pps. but it seems weird that some people get away without any suspicion whatsoever.

don't know if I really want do do a complete reread, but i'm less positive about an Egork lynch now. if XP still happens, that's great.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, Pacman looks less scummy

[Hydrad]

Ash, Pacman looks less scummy

where did you even come up with that nickname?

[silverspawn]

ww, have you posted reads? you could try to get stuff to happen.

[Voltaire]

PPS is not a content-free lynch. Many players have taken stances on him and he has actual posts of substance (though not many), which is why I think his lynch hits the sweet spot.

Can't you say the same thing of XP, though?

Yes, if I didn't lean town on him.

[ashersky]

Ash, Pacman looks less scummy

Less scummy than....?

[pacovf]

PPE 1

Ash, Pacman looks less scummy

where did you even come up with that nickname?

I was a bit annoyed by people constantly mispelling my username, so I put forward "P" or "pac" as alternatives. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Ash, Pacman looks less scummy

No idea where you people keep getting your reads.

PPS is not a content-free lynch. Many players have taken stances on him and he has actual posts of substance (though not many), which is why I think his lynch hits the sweet spot.

Can't you say the same thing of XP, though?

Yes, if I didn't lean town on him.

Hrmmph unfortunate. Robz, can you remind us your read on XP and PPS? It kinda looks like we are in a stalemate.

[pacovf]

Will only stay here for one more hour, tops. Would rather not be too tired tomorrow morning.

[pacovf]

Well, looks like Robz is gone again.

Neither lynch looks very doable right now, which is bad. It means that people will start switching their votes close to deadline, and who knows what is going to come out of it.

XP needs two extra votes. Short of one of the lurkers appearing to plop a vote down, the only people having stated some (reluctant) willingness to vote for him are Ichi and Ash. So the lynch can happen, but there's going to be resistance.

PPS needs four extra votes. Witherweaver could vote, me too if really necessary, maybe silverspawn and Hydrad? Not sure about those last two. Seems less probable, but the people opposed to it are less vocal than for XP.

You need four extra votes to lynch me, but I am not going to do the maths for you!


So, short of a new wagon coming out of nowhere right now, this looks like it's going to come down to which wagon breaks apart first (indecisive people will just vote for the other one to get a lynch through). Could we please skip the part where we are just waiting for the deadline to come closer? I'd rather give people the chance to claim.

This would be so much easier if XP or PPS were around...

[pacovf]

I'm going to bed, I will leave my vote on XP. I'll check how this is going/went when I wake up. I will probably keep my vote on XP then too, but if the wagon has vanished for some reason, I will move it to PPS. Unless madness happened, of course.

This was fun!

[Robz888]

Hey guys, look. WW and I talked about this in our QT, and we don't want XP lynched. WW can corroborate when he is around, but I'm worried about XP getting lynched at some random time when neither him nor me are.

You have no reason to listen to me obviously, but you should listen to WW, who remains a virtual IC. XP is off the table; find a different lynch.

I'm still in favor of pacovf. Between the two of them (ash and pacovf), pacovf is manifestly scummier (mostly for reaction). I'm not 100% sure what ash is thinking but I have no reason currently to distrust him.

The other options seem kind of random to me.

[Robz888]

I guess I'm willing to move my vote to either PPS or Egork, if that's what it takes for a lynch.

[Ichimaru Gin]

The other options seem kind of random to me.

Yesssssssss!!!

Anyway, I'm here. Forum time noon will be four 'o clock in the afternoon for me, so I'll be around.
I want to lynch XP, will lynch EgorK or PPS--don't really want to lynch pacovf, but I will to avoid a no-lynch I guess.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 1.8

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Witherweaver,
EgorK (2): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam
XerxesPraelor (5): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, pacovf, EgorK
Pingpongsam (3): Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire, Teproc

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 15 hours.

[pingpongsam]

Well, I am not in favor of lynching me. I agree egork is a coin flip and LALL is equally defensible by both alignments thus fairly useless although I feel this particular coin flip is actually 50/50 as opposed to 10:3 or whatever our ratio is this game.

I am not lurking, I am vacationing, there is a big difference, actually. Also, as I understand it the case on me is PPS is crazy town and he started acting crazy so he might be scum trying to look like crazy town which is just talking mush mouth circles.

I am willing to move my vote but not to myself nor to XP. I don't buy the case on XP. I would look in the XP wagon and guess who I find there, yeah I like my vote where it is.

[pingpongsam]

My vacation is over Sunday. Expect an active PPS going into D2 if you don't mislynch him or he doesn't get NK'd. Is egork going to offer that?

[Hydrad]

welp I don't want to lynch PPS then. I'm still inbetween egork and XP then. While I agree pacovf would give us a good amount of info I think keeping him alive also gives us a bunch of info as hes very active.

[Voltaire]

geez, I guess consider me EgorK > pacof, if it comes to that.

[ashersky]

geez, I guess consider me EgorK > pacof, if it comes to that.

I'm anti.

[Voltaire]

With no movement on PPS I feel the best thing I can do is vote: EgorK. I don't want XP.

[Robz888]

I prefer PPS to Egork, actually. Vote: PPS

[EgorK]

Oh my

Guys, everyone can't be town, this is not bastard game. I hadn't play with XP much, but he's behavior in here seems to be scummy to me. Other than him I would do pacov (plays same way as he did in his only game as town, but he may play this way always). I do not like either pps or Hydrad. I'm ok with silver.

[Robz888]

Oh my

Guys, everyone can't be town, this is not bastard game. I hadn't play with XP much, but he's behavior in here seems to be scummy to me. Other than him I would do pacov (plays same way as he did in his only game as town, but he may play this way always). I do not like either pps or Hydrad. I'm ok with silver.

Where were you 5 minutes ago when I wanted to do pacovf?

[EgorK]

I agree egork is a coin flip and LALL is equally defensible by both alignments thus fairly useless although I feel this particular coin flip is actually 50/50 as opposed to 10:3 or whatever our ratio is this game.

Any reasoning behind this actual coinflip theory?

[EgorK]

Oh my

Guys, everyone can't be town, this is not bastard game. I hadn't play with XP much, but he's behavior in here seems to be scummy to me. Other than him I would do pacov (plays same way as he did in his only game as town, but he may play this way always). I do not like either pps or Hydrad. I'm ok with silver.

Where were you 5 minutes ago when I wanted to do pacovf?

Reading 2 pages behind current.

[ashersky]

Oh my

Guys, everyone can't be town, this is not bastard game. I hadn't play with XP much, but he's behavior in here seems to be scummy to me. Other than him I would do pacov (plays same way as he did in his only game as town, but he may play this way always). I do not like either pps or Hydrad. I'm ok with silver.

Where were you 5 minutes ago when I wanted to do pacovf?

Come back to pacovf.

[pacovf]

Hey guys, look. WW and I talked about this in our QT, and we don't want XP lynched. WW can corroborate when he is around, but I'm worried about XP getting lynched at some random time when neither him nor me are.

You have no reason to listen to me obviously, but you should listen to WW, who remains a virtual IC. XP is off the table; find a different lynch.

Ack. I don't think you would be bold enough to make this up (but please WW confirm this), so I'll have to trust you for the time being. I won't give a pass to XP on D2 though.

vote: PPS

The case on him is a bit weak, but he's the one I prefer, if Hydrad and XP are not going to happen. Sorry PPS, but your last 2 posts here were too little, too late, and EgorK is a bad choice today, you even say so yourself.

I will be around a bit now, and maaaay be able to briefly sneak in 2h before the deadline to change my vote if needed, but this is probably going to be my last post before the lynch.

I'm still in favor of pacovf. Between the two of them (ash and pacovf), pacovf is manifestly scummier (mostly for reaction). I'm not 100% sure what ash is thinking but I have no reason currently to distrust him.

Why should there be scum in {Ash, pacovf} though? Town to town fights are known to happen.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.9

pacovf (2): ashersky, Witherweaver
EgorK (3): XerxesPraelor, pingpongsam, Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (4): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, EgorK
pingpongsam (4): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 7.5 hours.

[EgorK]

FYI - i'll be available until 1 hour before deadline

[ashersky]

I'm basically not around to deadline.

Everyone vote pacovf.

[silverspawn]

mh. well, if ww confirms (and only if he confirms) I'll switch my vote to either P or Egork.

[pacovf]

I have to go. I don't know if I will be able to log in again before the deadline. People, you need to act if you want to avoid no-lynch.

silverspawn, do you see now why waiting for the last minute is bad?

[Teproc]

For the record I'll be here till deadline and ready to switch to people if needed.

[silverspawn]

silverspawn, do you see now why waiting for the last minute is bad?

I already agreed on that (and I never said anything about last "minute" to begin with)

[faust]

Rules clarification: This paragraph

7. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, one of two things will happen: If there was a lynch on the previous Day, there will be no lynch. Otherwise the player with the most votes at deadline will be lynched, with ties broken randomly.

is only discussion game states after D1. Today, if no majority is reached by deadline, there will be no lynch. Sorry about any confusion caused by this.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'll vote: Pacovf

[XerxesPraelor]

Actually, looks like that isn't a possibility. vote: PPS

[silverspawn]

I'll vote: Pacovf

of course you do

can we really not lynch XP? and why?

[faust]

Vote Count 1.10

pacovf (2): ashersky, Witherweaver
EgorK (2): pingpongsam, Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (4): Hydrad, silverspawn, azadin, EgorK
pingpongsam (5): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 3.5 hours.

[Teproc]

I'll vote: Pacovf

of course you do

can we really not lynch XP? and why?

I mean at this point he has to vote for survival, regardless of his alignment.

[silverspawn]

I'll vote: Pacovf

of course you do

can we really not lynch XP? and why?

I mean at this point he has to vote for survival, regardless of his alignment.

does he though? after what robz posted, a XP lynch probably isn't going to happen.

[Teproc]

I'll admit I completely forgot about that you're right.

[XerxesPraelor]

I have hardly any reads. I promise that I'll do some rereading, but right now everyone is mixed up in my head with the other game.

[silverspawn]

I have hardly any reads.

well scum doesn't need to read people, they know who's town

[pingpongsam]

I don't like it but I like lynching me less so Vote: XP

[silverspawn]

L-2 on both XP and on pps

[pacovf]

One of my errands finished earlier than expected. I'll be around for one hour, but I am busy so can't really contribute.

Robz was implying that the Targs have some sort of plan that requires XP not being lynched. I trust their opinion on that, so I am not voting for XP today. However, if WW comes and disagrees with what Robz said, I am definitely coming back to XP.

[silverspawn]

if WW comes and disagrees with that, I'll vote for robz.

[Teproc]

One of my errands finished earlier than expected. I'll be around for one hour, but I am busy so can't really contribute.

Robz was implying that the Targs have some sort of plan that requires XP not being lynched. I trust their opinion on that, so I am not voting for XP today. However, if WW comes and disagrees with what Robz said, I am definitely coming back to XP.

At that point I'd probably lynch Robz actually. So I really, really doubt Robz just made it up.

[pacovf]

One of my errands finished earlier than expected. I'll be around for one hour, but I am busy so can't really contribute.

Robz was implying that the Targs have some sort of plan that requires XP not being lynched. I trust their opinion on that, so I am not voting for XP today. However, if WW comes and disagrees with what Robz said, I am definitely coming back to XP.

At that point I'd probably lynch Robz actually. So I really, really doubt Robz just made it up.

More in the "What you are saying is true, but that was long ago, I don't know if it's relevant any more. Still, voting XP is a terrible idea" (or similar) kind of disagree.

If he outright states that what Robz said is false, Robz is the obvious lynch, assuming enough people are online.

[silverspawn]

yea it's extremely unlikely, that would more or less be a suicide call, and he wasn't even under pressure

[Witherweaver]

I'll vote: Pacovf

of course you do

can we really not lynch XP? and why?

'Cause I said so!

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure why any of you think Robz would be making stuff up here; that would be silly.

[Witherweaver]

It looks like PPS is the defacto lynch.  I guess I'm okay with that.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, Pacman looks less scummy

Less scummy than....?

Than he was initially.

[Witherweaver]

I have hardly any reads.

well scum doesn't need to read people, they know who's town

Scum manufactures reads.

[silverspawn]

I have hardly any reads.

well scum doesn't need to read people, they know who's town

Scum manufactures reads.

well no shit

[silverspawn]

vote:pacovf

I'll probably still do XP even after what WW said (unless he explains why we shouldn't do it), but I doubt this will happen, and pacovf > PPS in my mind

[silverspawn]

that's L-3

[Teproc]

I'd be good with both. Slight preference for pps so I'm staying there but I'll move if needed.

[pacovf]

that's L-3

L-4

[silverspawn]

that's L-3

L-4

PPS has also voted for you since the count

[pacovf]

No. For XP.

[azadin]

What is it, 2 hours to deadline?

[silverspawn]

No. For XP.

that's right. L-4 than.

you aren't on XP by the way. I'd rather lynch him than you.

[azadin]

I'll be around to change my vote is necessary.

[silverspawn]

What is it, 2 hours to deadline?

yea. 2:15

[Teproc]

I'll be around to change my vote is necessary.

It is now. XP isn't happening because reasons.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.11

pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, silverspawn
EgorK (1): Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (4): Hydrad, azadin, EgorK, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (5): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 2 hours.

[pacovf]

No. For XP.

that's right. L-4 than.

you aren't on XP by the way. I'd rather lynch him than you.

Me too. But I'd rather not lynch XP today when apparently there's a plan going on, and the pseudo-IC has agreed to the plan. Feel free to keep your vote on me though.

[silverspawn]

on PPS

I'm going to be rather V/LA until about Monday since I am cramming work, then packing and then traveling and then unpacking over this weekend. Then I'll actually be on vacation but should at least be able to follow the thread closely and post in spurts (sounds kind of gross, no?).

That said, I agree that WW is ICish via the mod mistake. Teproc distilled the WW ICishness so town points to him.

I am not at all following the pacovf angle and think ash is off the rails with this one. Typical ash, null here for now.

Voltaire seems opportunistically voting in search of traction.

Null on everyone else.

he announces that he'll not be active, and then he isn't active. He also announced that he'll be active day2. I don't really get the case.

[Teproc]

Are you under the impression that the case on PPS is that he's lurking or are you deliberately misrepresenting it ?

[silverspawn]

Are you under the impression that the case on PPS is that he's lurking or are you deliberately misrepresenting it ?

I thought it was mostly because he was lurking.

the only other thing I can remember was the "he's crazy, and he's usually crazy as town, therefore he's scum" thing.

[azadin]

If XP is really not happening, I'll move my vote. Vote: pacovf

[Teproc]

Are you under the impression that the case on PPS is that he's lurking or are you deliberately misrepresenting it ?

I thought it was mostly because he was lurking.

the only other thing I can remember was the "he's crazy, and he's usually crazy as town, therefore he's scum" thing.

Yeah, you definitely bothered to read posts, good job.

[pacovf]

Leaving in twenty minutes, and I won't be back until after the deadline.

[silverspawn]

something different: I think it could be useful to have the new house overview posted before N1


Stark:

• Members
  
  • pacovf (Brynden Tully)
  • Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)
  • Ashersky
  • Ichimaru Gin
• Power:
  Bodyguard
• Empowerment Condition:
  House Lanister must have perished. This should be met now.

Lannister:

• No Members if everything went according to plan
• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action that a targeted Player used on you, with him as the new target
• Empowerment Condition:
  For each house, one Player who used to be in this house must now be in house Lannister

Targaryen:

• Members:
  
  • Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
  • Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)
  • XerxesPraelor
• Power:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Empowerment Condition:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Baratheon:

• Members:
  
  • Hydrad
  • EgorK
  • silverspawn (Oberyn Martell)
  • pingpongsam
  • Voltaire (Queen of Thorns)
  • Azadin
• Power:
  Arsonist
• Empowerment Condition:
  Stannis Baratheon must be King

pm's are sent privately, so it's not entirely impossible that someone stayed/switched there, though I guess it's really unlikely

[pacovf]

Pingpongsam claimed Varys. Azadin claimed Tyrion Lannister. EgorK claimed Melisandre.

There is a mistake in your overview, one person won't be where you say he is.

Not sure why we are talking about it now, though.

[pacovf]

Ichi claimed Jon Snow too.

[silverspawn]

Are you under the impression that the case on PPS is that he's lurking or are you deliberately misrepresenting it ?

I thought it was mostly because he was lurking.

the only other thing I can remember was the "he's crazy, and he's usually crazy as town, therefore he's scum" thing.

Yeah, you definitely bothered to read posts, good job.

I can't find it. the only thing I found was this:

PPS has a meta of being crazy as town (he once claimed VT early D1 and got lynched for it). He wasn't adhering to it, but was defending ash for it. Then I voted for him (and Voltaire too I think), and he self-voted. This seemed to me like an over the top attempt to imitate his town meta.

who made the case?

[silverspawn]

PPS even said that, the case against him was the town->crazy town thing

[silverspawn]

There is a mistake in your overview, one person won't be where you say he is.

which one?

[pacovf]

There is a mistake in your overview, one person won't be where you say he is.

which one?

I would have said it in my previous post if I wanted to say it, don't you think?

[silverspawn]

There is a mistake in your overview, one person won't be where you say he is.

which one?

I would have said it in my previous post if I wanted to say it, don't you think?

If it is a mistake that I made (which I think it's not, because it's in line with Voltaire's prediction), there is no reason not to tell it. If it is a change of plans of which I'm not supposed to know anything, I don't know why you would mention it at all

Not sure why we are talking about it now, though.

I didn't want to talk about it. I just wanted to post it, and that's it, which could help to make the right Night Actions

[faust]

Vote Count 1.12

pacovf (4): ashersky, Witherweaver, silverspawn, azadin
EgorK (1): Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (3): Hydrad, EgorK, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (5): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 2 hours.

[Witherweaver]

Where's Hydrad?

[EgorK]

Ok, so pps or pac?

I would go for pac even if just to see ash reaction (and because I think he is scummier)

Vote: pacovf

It seems like this is L-2

[Witherweaver]

Ok, so pps or pac?

I would go for pac even if just to see ash reaction (and because I think he is scummier)

Vote: pacovf

It seems like this is L-2

See Ash's reaction to Pac getting lynched you mean?

[pacovf]

Sorry guys real life happening can't post reads before I leave.

Good luck.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.13

pacovf (5): ashersky, Witherweaver, silverspawn, azadin, EgorK
EgorK (1): Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (2): Hydrad, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (5): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on September 19 at noon. That's in about 90 minutes.

[EgorK]

Ok, so pps or pac?

I would go for pac even if just to see ash reaction (and because I think he is scummier)

Vote: pacovf

It seems like this is L-2

See Ash's reaction to Pac getting lynched you mean?

Well, that was more of a joke. Either "I told you so" or "But he was totally behaving like scum"

[silverspawn]

Egork, since you're here, don't you want to do something more? post a reads list on everyone f.e.? you won't get away forever with lurking. or, you shouldn't, anyway.

[silverspawn]

oh and I think it's e.g. not f.e. there was something.

[Voltaire]

I'm actually here, what's going on?

[Witherweaver]

Why is EgorK a good choice?  And regardless of your answer, you should probably move.

[Voltaire]

Why is EgorK a good choice?  And regardless of your answer, you should probably move.

He's not, that vote was based on thinking PPS wasn't happening.

vote: PPS

Did pacof just say he or a housemate is fucking with the plan? Who else could that be?

[Voltaire]

That's L-1

[Teproc]

I'm actually here, what's going on?

It's PPS or pac.

[Voltaire]

unvote

[Teproc]

Why is EgorK a good choice?  And regardless of your answer, you should probably move.

He's not, that vote was based on thinking PPS wasn't happening.

vote: PPS

Did pacof just say he or a housemate is fucking with the plan? Who else could that be?

ash. We've accounted for this.

[Voltaire]

I'm actually here, what's going on?

It's PPS or pac.

Tep, sell me on PPS.

WW, sell me on pac.

Also, someone explain what pac just said.

[Voltaire]

Why is EgorK a good choice?  And regardless of your answer, you should probably move.

He's not, that vote was based on thinking PPS wasn't happening.

vote: PPS

Did pacof just say he or a housemate is fucking with the plan? Who else could that be?

ash. We've accounted for this.

If that's what it is, why didn't pac just remind silver of that fact?

[Teproc]

I'm actually here, what's going on?

It's PPS or pac.

Tep, sell me on PPS.

WW, sell me on pac.

Also, someone explain what pac just said.

I'm actually good with both lynched, just like the pps one better because we lose less if it's a mislynch.

The case against PPS is that his defense of ash looked to me like he was pointing out what he himself usually does as town without doing it (ie being erratic and bold). I pointed this out (and you also expressed suspicion) and then he self-voted, which I think is as an over the top attempt to appear as "crazy town" because that often gets people to lay off.

[Teproc]

Why is EgorK a good choice?  And regardless of your answer, you should probably move.

He's not, that vote was based on thinking PPS wasn't happening.

vote: PPS

Did pacof just say he or a housemate is fucking with the plan? Who else could that be?

ash. We've accounted for this.

If that's what it is, why didn't pac just remind silver of that fact?

Not sure. Maybe he was hoping scum forgot about it ?

[Witherweaver]

The key difference is coming down to Pac having a lot more content and information, so flip and reads will be informative.  PPS will provide some info, but not as much to analyze.  On the other hand, if PPS is still around Day 4 or so, it provides a challenge to us for rereads (the problem with Mail-Archetype in Dice Mafia).  But PPS has promised to be around more the following days.

It's kind of a toss-up for me, honestly.  I will do either.

[Voltaire]

vote: PPS

That's L-1 (again)

[Witherweaver]

I'm willing to hammer.. we can hold out if anyone thinks something productive will happen in the next hour.

I find Hydrad being absent a bit mysterious.

[Teproc]

Assuming PPS shows up in the next hour, both are at L-1. Still need Hydrad. We'll get a lynch through since both WW and I are ready to switch if needed. PPS, if you come and have something to claim, I suggest you do it.

[Teproc]

I'd wait to see if Hydrad shows up.

[Voltaire]

I dunno, do we already have the D1 record? Maybe we could go for it if we don't? 

[Voltaire]

I am willing to switch should something happen that will kill a PPS lynch, btw.

[Witherweaver]

Alright, no one quickhammer, let's wait a bit and see if something develops.

Pacovf said he'd be gone.. I'm guessing he doesn't wish to claim anything.

[Teproc]

I dunno, do we already have the D1 record? Maybe we could go for it if we don't? 

I'm guessing Modern Community is far ahead. Mafia VI too.

[Teproc]

Oh, and Robz's mega game. But this might be the record for a 13-player game !

[Voltaire]

Oh, and Robz's mega game. But this might be the record for a 13-player game !

MC was 62 pages (neither this or that accounting for pre-game). I don't think we'll make it.

[Teproc]

Oh, and Robz's mega game. But this might be the record for a 13-player game !

MC was 62 pages (neither this or that accounting for pre-game). I don't think we'll make it.

Was MC 13 player only ? Dear God.

[Voltaire]

Oh, and Robz's mega game. But this might be the record for a 13-player game !

MC was 62 pages (neither this or that accounting for pre-game). I don't think we'll make it.

Was MC 13 player only ? Dear God.

No, it wasn't. It was also huge. Me quoting you there was misleading. It was 25 players or something also huge.

[silverspawn]

I still don't get the point with ash. He said he wouldn't go along with the plan. But if he does nothing, the plan works. He didn't say he'd try to sabotage the plan. and if he did, he'd have to go to lannister. You can't account for that.

well, I think PPS should claim now.

[Voltaire]

ash was obviously trying to obscure where he's going. All we know is that he's leaving Stark (or wants us to think he's leaving Stark).

[silverspawn]

Stark:

• Members
  
  • pacovf (Brynden Tully)
  • Teproc (Brienne of Tarth)
  • Ichimaru Gin (John Snow)
• Power:
  Bodyguard
• Empowerment Condition:
  House Lanister must have perished. This should be met now.

Lannister:

• No Members if everything went according to plan
• Power:
  Copy the latest night Action that a targeted Player used on you, with him as the new target
• Empowerment Condition:
  For each house, one Player who used to be in this house must now be in house Lannister

Targaryen:

• Members:
  
  • Robz888 (Jorah Mormont)
  • Witherweaver (Barristan Selmy)
  • XerxesPraelor
• Power:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Empowerment Condition:
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Baratheon:

• Members:
  
  • Hydrad
  • EgorK (Lady Melisandre)
  • silverspawn (Oberyn Martell)
  • pingpongsam (Varys)
  • Voltaire (Queen of Thorns)
  • Azadin (Tyrion Lannister)
• Power:
  Arsonist
• Empowerment Condition:
  Stannis Baratheon must be King

Ashersky: ?

If nothing else, I want to have it in one piece, so here it is

[azadin]

ash was obviously trying to obscure where he's going. All we know is that he's leaving Stark (or wants us to think he's leaving Stark).

Ash, is there a specific reason that you are being purposefully obscure about your plans?

[Witherweaver]

Did Ichi say he wouldn't be around for lynch as well?  Did Hydrad say anything about it?

[silverspawn]

I should be around for deadline but will be at work. So won't be able to garentee posting a couple minutes before deadline. But I'm still going to be here for the evening and in the morning tomorrow

[Witherweaver]

Okay.

[Hydrad]

Here!

[Witherweaver]

Cool; don't vote prematurely, but thoughts?

[Hydrad]

Uh feel bad about lunching pps since he was vla and said he will start being active. Also don't fully like the pacovf lynch since I think he's really helpful if the game still goes on. Still would rather egork or xp but those arnt happening.

[Witherweaver]

What's so good about EgorK?  You see no promise of him becoming more active?

[silverspawn]

maybe we try again?

vote:XP

[Witherweaver]

Shtawp

[Witherweaver]

Or stahp?

[Hydrad]

What's so good about EgorK?  You see no promise of him becoming more active?

Pretty much. If we go for. Lurker lynch I don't know if egork will ever be super active where I'm willing to give pps a bit of time to come back from vla

[Teproc]

Did PPS say he would be back ?

[Witherweaver]

The case on PPS isn't that he's lurking; it's that he's emulating his town meta.

The case on EgorK is, as far as I can tell, nothing beyond lurking.

[Hydrad]

The case on PPS isn't that he's lurking; it's that he's emulating his town meta.

The case on EgorK is, as far as I can tell, nothing beyond lurking.

Right but I guess I don't know his meta well so for me it's more. Lurking case.

[silverspawn]

don't you think scum!PPS would have jumped onto the XP wagon? he didn't really post reads, so it would have been totally believable.

XP did that kind of stuff all the time and we are letting him get away with it.

[Voltaire]

Correct. EgorK had a long post about nothing I called him out on and he agreed with me, but I don't actually think it's an example of "the case on me is good."

Also Silver come back, XP is NOT happening.

[Witherweaver]

Well you can see somewhat from just this:

PPS: "Hey crazy antitown Ash is so town, it's so town to be crazy"
PPS: <does crazy things>
PPS: <hides behind the shrubbery and sees if people think he's town>

[Voltaire]

And the fact that he raged when he had 1.5 votes on him.

[silverspawn]

don't you think scum!PPS would have jumped onto the XP wagon? he didn't really post reads, so it would have been totally believable.

XP did that kind of stuff all the time and we are letting him get away with it.

he did vote for him later though. that was one of his last posts

I don't think he said that he'd be afk at the deadline

[azadin]

Did PPS say he would be back ?

Yes, Sunday.

[Teproc]

At this point the reasons we aren't lynching XP are a little different anyway.

It's more that PPs responding to people saying he wasn't being his town!self by self-voting after explaining how townie it is to do weird things (which is what you'd expect from him), and then he went back to not being his town self.

Also his defense of "I'll be more active later, Egork won't" is super scummy to me.

PPE : 5

[Teproc]

Did PPS say he would be back ?

Yes, Sunday.

Right, so we might as well end this since he won't claim.

[Witherweaver]

Alright, intent to hammer~

[azadin]

Did PPS say he would be back ?

Yes, Sunday.

Right, so we might as well end this since he won't claim.

I'm willing to hammer.

[silverspawn]

sigh. alright, SSP it is.

[Voltaire]

Sweet. Good work all!

[silverspawn]

But I do think it's a mistake.

[silverspawn]

*pps

[Witherweaver]

I'll hammer in a min.

[Teproc]

WW, wanna leave it to azadin ? Better to have him on wagon for later (we can still considering him on wagon, but that could be lost when just quoting the final vote count).

[Witherweaver]

Okay, sure.

Azadin hammer.

[Teproc]

To clarify : ICs on wagon reduce the wagon analysis. Not a huge deal since this is somewhat of a default lynch for several people, but still.

[azadin]

Vote: PPS

[Witherweaver]

Now for the fun part: If I die tonight, I think there may be scum in my house.

[Teproc]

Now for the fun part: If I die tonight, I think there may be scum in my house.

Duly noted.

[silverspawn]

and...

[Voltaire]

Now for the fun part: If I die tonight, I think there may be scum in my house.

Oh, totally.

Also, I'd love it if theoretically vigs vigged the good choices - if you don't know what those are right away, don't shoot.

[Hydrad]

Well gl I guess. And see half the players in the qt!

[Robz888]

Now for the fun part: If I die tonight, I think there may be scum in my house.

Oh, totally.

Also, I'd love it if theoretically vigs vigged the good choices - if you don't know what those are right away, don't shoot.

[Witherweaver]

Ha, yeah,  I think I agree with Robz.

[Teproc]

Same here.

[Voltaire]

Flips are awesome and you know it.

[Witherweaver]

Red flips are awesomer.

[Voltaire]

Red flips are awesomer.

If only there were a way to get more of them...

[Teproc]

Red flips are awesomer.

SCUMSLIP !

How do you know the scum faction is red in this game ?

[Witherweaver]

Red flips are awesomer.

SCUMSLIP !

How do you know the scum faction is red in this game ?

Haha.

Scum is Melisandre-aligned.  Greyjoys were a red herring. (ooh, pun)

[Voltaire]

Red flips are awesomer.

SCUMSLIP !

How do you know the scum faction is red in this game ?

Our PM!

Wait...

Also we're going to be waiting for TA on this flip I think, faust is Germany if I recall correctly and I think probably just went to bed.

[Voltaire]

We probably should have just lynched Mels then. 

[Teproc]

Red flips are awesomer.

SCUMSLIP !

How do you know the scum faction is red in this game ?

Our PM!

Wait...

Also we're going to be waiting for TA on this flip I think, faust is Germany if I recall correctly and I think probably just went to bed.

It's 6PM here

[Witherweaver]

*It's 6PM in Germany and Faust is probably out drunk in a bar...

[faust]

THREAD LOCKED!

[faust]

Day 1 Final Vote Count

pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, EgorK
XerxesPraelor (3): Hydrad, pingpongsam, silverspawn
pingpongsam (7): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor, Voltaire, azadin

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[faust]

Cersei

"I will not", exclaimed Cersei, "give my child to that whore Margaery!"
"Call her as you will", her father answered sternly. "Joffrey will be married to Margaery Tyrell, whether you like it or not. We need to bind the Tyrells to our house."
It was the same as always. Whenever Cersei brought her concerns before her father, they were completely disregarded. Was she the only one clever enough to see through the Tyrell plot? Margaery and her kin were planning on stealing Joffrey from her, turning him against him, so that they could have the Iron Throne for themselves.
"You are blind! Don't you see...", she started, when the door suddenly opened with a blast.
"Who has the impertinence to enter the Tower of the Hand without an audience? Guards! What am I paying you for? This..." Tywin Lannister's outburst ended apruptly when he saw who stod behind the door.

"I believe", remarked Tyrion, "you are paying your guards to defend you with their lives. Well, in that case, you need not be angry, seeing as this is exactly what they did."
"What is the meaning of this?", exclaimed Tywin. Cersei gazed fearfully to the man who stood behind her brother, a man she had last seen when her wicked husband was still alive.
"I just could not bear to look at that monster of a son you have put on the Iron Throne", continued Tyrion. "You were blinded with your wedding preparations and did not see a thing. I dare say we will have a new king now. I take it you still remember Stannis?"

"How could that happen? How could you betray your family like this?", shouted their father. "Why did Varys not say a thing?"

Stannis raised his voice. "The spider has spun his last web. You will bend the knee to me, or you will die."

Weeping, Cersei sank to the ground.

pingpongsam has been lynched! He was Varys, the Mafia Jailkeeper, sworn to House Lannister!

Night 1 has begun! Night actions are due within 24 hours. House votes are due within 48 hours.

Stannis of House Baratheon sits on the Iron Throne.

[faust]

Night action deadline has passed. House actions may still be sent in. I think this night could be a bit shorter... if nobody objects, Day 2 will start in 24 hours.

[faust]

Tyrion

Tyrion was surprised how much pleasure he took from seeing the end of his family: His sister kneeling on the ground, tears in her eyes. His father's eyes were filled with a curious mix of hatred, shock and despair. By now Stannis' men should have been able to capture that little monster Joffrey.

Content, he sat down at the Hand's desk, the place he held for the last few months until his father's sudden return to King's Landing. His plan worked out splendidly, he thought. Stannis, while a bit dull, would certainly be a much better king than Joffrey could ever have been. It was time, he decided, to celebrate the downfall of his family. And what better way to do that than a night a Chataya's?

"If you high lords – and my new king - would excuse me for a while“, he said, „I have some rather urgent business to attend to in the city."

Tyrion was walking the streets of King's Landing – there was much confusion as the news of Joffrey's fall spread – when suddenly a familiar, wild face appeared before him.

"Chella", he said, not sure what this meeting meant, "what a pleasure to meet you again."

"HALFMAN!", the woman roared. "Chella, daughter of Cheyk, the chief of the Black Ears is not to be fooled. You have betrayed us!"

"I am afraid I do not quite understand what this is about."

"Have you forgotten your promise? You said the Vale would be ours if we help you. Yet your new king locks up mountain clan men and wants to put them on trial. Have you forgotten your debts?"

"As I assured you", responded Tyrion, "a Lannister always pays his debts. Let me just talk..."

"The halfman is good with words... but not as good as I am with the axe!" The rusty weapon sank down on Tyrion, and that was the last thing he saw.

azadin has been killed! He was Tyrion Lannister, the Vanilla Lord, sworn to House Baratheon.

Thread unlocked. Day 2 has begun!

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (11): silverspawn, pacovf, ashersky, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc, XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[silverspawn]

why would anyone want to kill tyrion? t_t

[Voltaire]

Bizarre kill. We need to seriously consider a mass claim.

Also, tons of people should be considered town for today.

[Teproc]

Huh, so the lynch flavor actually gave us azadin's flavor.

Somewhat strange NK, but it can likely be explained by scum trying to avoid protective roles.

Baratheon people, what happened in your house, not much I presume ? Scum probably knows about it anyway.

[Witherweaver]

Anyone not accounted for in moves?  No one moved to Targaryen.

Stark/Baratheon want to reveal empowerment? 

What do you mean lynch flavor have Azadins flavor?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Dat nightkill. . .

I'm fine with a massclaim--and Voltaire is about one of my strongest townreads at this point. I think he voted PPS like 6 different times, way before it would have been a good idea to try bussing him.

[Teproc]

Anyone not accounted for in moves?  No one moved to Targaryen.

Stark/Baratheon want to reveal empowerment? 

What do you mean lynch flavor have Azadins flavor?

azadin hammered and Tyrion was featured in the flavor as the main character killing Varys (well along with Stannis, but Stannis is not a flavor someone has). I assumed characters in flavor would all be NPCs.

I'm open to revealing our empowerement, but there's a strong possibility that scum doesn't know about it, so I'm not automatically doing it. I definitely think the Baratheon empowerement should be revealed since the likeliness of scum not knowing it is pretty low.

I think I'm in favor of a massclaim ? Need to think about it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. vote: Hydrad
He only made a single vote all of D1, listed PPS as a scumread while never voting him and later hedged against his lynch.

Short case here

Well this wouldn't be a normal game of mafia if I wasn't suspected day 1 I guess

Lunch time! ok here are my reads

1. silverspawn - null
2. pacovf - nullish scum
3. ashersky - townish
4. Hydrad - IC obviously
5. Witherweaver - about 90% IC. I agree that no scum should do that and I'm not going to lynch him for a while. But if hes somehow still alive at the last 3 or something I'm going to consider him and not give him a free pass like everyone else seems too
6. Teproc - slight town
7. XerxesPraelor - I see him as scummy. His vote on me had really no context. It was just a vote on me. He also hasn't posted much so people are forgetting that hes in this game which is what scum wants I think
8. EgorK - mini scum read? actually probably more null. Egork has barely been in this game at all but from him I'm getting a more unavailable vibe then a trying to hide vibe. Not really sure why.
9. Robz888 - slight scum read. Not as scummy as XP but still don't like it. This isn't how he normally plays but I'm feeling its also a more unavailable feeling then anything.
10. Ichimaru Gin - town read
11. pingpongsam - scummy also.
12. azadin - null
13. Voltaire - town

Overall even though I know its not happening I'm still in favor of tar claiming since I'm pretty sure that there is at least one scum in that area. But as long as WW gets voted to use the power I'm ok with them not claiming since i'm pretty sure hes town. If WW dies though I don't feel as good about tar keeping everything secret.

Overall I'm going to Vote: XP I guess this could be considered OMGUS almost but even if that vote was on someone else I would feel the exact same way.

PPE:10

Keep in mind this is the only vote he makes the entire day. Note his read on PPS, but he votes XP of course.

I'm interested in PPS slightly. There are a decent amount of people that think hes super scummy and then i just noticed asher and azadin both put him on super towny.

Also I don't want part of my meta to be is one of peoples top scum reads every day1 in mafia...

Very empty scum post to me. Extremely hedgy and only talking about other people's reads on him without giving his own.

looks like its pretty much a lurker lynch or maybe pacovf. But leaning towards a lurker lynch...

Framing the lynch options in a way that eliminates his partner.

welp I don't want to lynch PPS then. I'm still inbetween egork and XP then. While I agree pacovf would give us a good amount of info I think keeping him alive also gives us a bunch of info as hes very active.

Ok. PPS promises he'll be more active so that's good enough not to lynch him when the case against him wasn't even a lurker case? Bad, bad, bad.

Uh feel bad about lunching pps since he was vla and said he will start being active. Also don't fully like the pacovf lynch since I think he's really helpful if the game still goes on. Still would rather egork or xp but those arnt happening.

More hedging and poor reasoning not to vote for PPS.

In general, I don't see that Hydrad gets D1 heat every single game. I felt very strongly town about him D1 and still think XP's vote on him looks really scummy (though maybe not for XP). With PPS' flip though, I think it's pretty damning. The combination of low content and activity (concerning voting), hedging on his partner, and changing his reads on PPS from scum to town without explanation while never actually voting for him looks pretty damning to me.

[Teproc]

That's a very strong case. Not voting yet because there's other stuff to figure out and I need to reread myself, but I like it a lot.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm interested in PPS slightly. There are a decent amount of people that think hes super scummy and then i just noticed asher and azadin both put him on super towny.

Also I don't want part of my meta to be is one of peoples top scum reads every day1 in mafia...

Sorry. One additional point about this. It's obvious that he's paying attention to PPS (his partner) and concerned about other people's reads on him. But 100% does not commit to a read here, instead transitioning to a weak meta defense of why he isn't scum.

PPE: 1

[silverspawn]

I also think it's a good case. though just one vote is kind of extreme. it's probably not very good play for scum!hydrad to be so passive when he's not actually lurking.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I also think it's a good case. though just one vote is kind of extreme. it's probably not very good play for scum!hydrad to be so passive when he's not actually lurking.

I agree. And it surprised me during my reread. Though I think it's likely that he wasn't keeping track of his votes and just playing a passive game. I've played with town!Hydrad in the past and I'm pretty sure he voted at least more than once D1. At any rate, that's only a minor component compared to his commentary on PPS and weak reasons to not vote for him.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I surely think lynching off wagon today is good.  Luckily that's only a few of us.

[silverspawn]

to prevent any scum reads on me because I change my mind on hydrad too quickly:

the bottom line so far is really that I don't find any arguments against hydrad convincing.

after I did my reread on him, I decided that I didn't want to lynch him because, 1) every case presented on him seemed weak  2) XP tried to lynch him and I still think XP is scummy 3) he wrote pretty much exactly what I thought about the arsonist power.

so it was mostly the lack of a case and not a town read. but this is a good case.

vote:Hydrad

[Teproc]

silver : changing our mind after someone flipped scum is not scummy (changing your mind in general isn't scummy in fact).

But trying to respond to arguments against you before they're made is, because if you're town you should want people to make them, just so you can see who will.

[silverspawn]

silver : changing our mind after someone flipped scum is not scummy (changing your mind in general isn't scummy in fact).

i'm not familiar with that consensus. I imagine that, as scum, you don't have any reads, so you need to pretend. it's pretty easy to forget that you pretended to have a town read on X when you see a good opportunity to jump on an X wagon. a slip like that could give you away.

I defended hydrad in the previous day, so I think I owe an explanation if I change my mind. really, this is dangerously close to another "too self aware argument". that didn't go well the last time.

[Teproc]

silver : changing our mind after someone flipped scum is not scummy (changing your mind in general isn't scummy in fact).

i'm not familiar with that consensus. I imagine that, as scum, you don't have any reads, so you need to pretend. it's pretty easy to forget that you pretended to have a town read on X when you see a good opportunity to jump on an X wagon. a slip like that could give you away.

I defended hydrad in the previous day, so I think I owe an explanation if I change my mind. really, this is dangerously close to another "too self aware argument". that didn't go well the last time.

That game is still ongoing, so let's not.

What you're saying is true, but the problem is that town has to change their mind all the time, as new information appears. Someone flipping scum should certainly change your reads based on that.

[Hydrad]

Well I'm here and I kinda new I was going to have to fight my lynch today.

Anyways one thing is that it looks like there might only be one scum team since there was one death. If that's true this makes me not worried about volt being scum right now as the only thing I was scared of was if there was a second scum team.

[Teproc]

Why did you expect to fight your lynch today Hydrad ?

[Robz888]

I also think the Hydrad case is decent.

[silverspawn]

unrelated of the hydrad case, my logic says that, when you're ahead, it's more profitable to lynch lurkers. is that correct? if so, I think we should look closely at EgorK and Robz. assuming of course that we don't lynch hydrad

[Teproc]

unrelated of the hydrad case, my logic says that, when you're ahead, it's more profitable to lynch lurkers. is that correct? if so, I think we should look closely at EgorK and Robz. assuming of course that we don't lynch hydrad

It's worth noting that Robz was on-wagon. Scum killed on wagon, too. People should pay special attention to azadin's reads when rereading btw, just being the hammer and an unlikely protection target doesn't seem like enough to justify his kill over other on-wagon people. So they either thought he was a PR or didn't like his reads.

[Hydrad]

I didn't know if I was going to be the biggest lynch but I knew that I would be at least brought up today since near the end I stated how I would rather not lynch PPS.

The problem is that I thought he was scummy from the beginning and was willing to vote for him until he had his post about being VLA and coming back on sunday. When he posted that I wanted to lynch someone else because I hate voting for people who are VLA and feels like they don't get a chance to play. Especially on day 1. You can see this in the BM game I played artists mafia where when it was down to 4 people I missed my chance to lynch XP becuase I was afraid of lynching him since he was VLA. Even though it was pretty much a lylo situation I waited and debated lynching him or not and by the time I was about to lynch him someone unvoted.

Basically I just really hate voting for people who say they are VLA and the PPS lynch I was mainly going along because I was fine with a lurker lynch. When he stated that he was coming back on sunday I didn't want to lynch someone before they even got a chance to really play the game.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I saw egorK on here earlier and he has yet to post. Although I still feel very strongly about Hydrad, egorK's insane lurking looks scummy to me as well. And I now see it as more of an intentional tactic, making me feel much scummier about him.

I don't really buy Hydrad's defense at this point. What I would like to see is his explanation for only making one vote the whole day.

Furthermore, people have been known to use VLA as an excuse (to make myself clear, I am not saying that PPS necessarily did this, just recalling a game where Robz admitted to doing this). So although it is something to be taken into account, it's not a very good reason to not lynch someone--especially when the main case against them was not based upon their lurking.

[Hydrad]

my one vote was that I pretty much liked xp the most the whole day. He had a decent amount of people on him for a while so his wagon never really died so I didn't feel like I needed to move my vote. Then at the end of the day I was willing to move my vote for a lynch to happen but it wasn't even needed as there were lots of people who wanted to lynch PPS.

[Hydrad]

also asher at one point implied that he might leave stark right? is he still in that QT?

[Teproc]

also asher at one point implied that he might leave stark right? is he still in that QT?

I'll leave that up to him to reveal (depending on wether or not we want to massclaim).

[Witherweaver]

Well he's not in Targaryen and evidently not in your House.  Is Stark empowered?  If so he can't be in Lannister, so Stark or No House.

Tentative Vote: Hydrad for general feeling from recent interactions.

[Teproc]

Thoughts on massclaim WW ?

And even if we don't massclaim, what about the Targ power, still a secret ?

[Witherweaver]

We'll talk it over.  I think I would not oppose a mass claim.

[ashersky]

We'll talk it over.  I think I would not oppose a mass claim.

Do we mean flavor mass claim?  House mass claim?  Full mass claim?

I think we need to be careful.

[Hydrad]

I don't think we need PR mass claim yet. house claim I would be okay with.

[silverspawn]

I'm not sure how useful a massclaim is here. There probably aren't many PR's, so scum can just claim VT and that's that.

that said, I wont refuse to claim if we decide to do it. I'd also be okay with claiming relatively early, since I didn't join the PPS wagon.

[Teproc]

We'll talk it over.  I think I would not oppose a mass claim.

Do we mean flavor mass claim?  House mass claim?  Full mass claim?

I think we need to be careful.

Flavor is basically already mass-claimed (XP is the only one who hasn't claimed and isn't entirely obvious I think).

I think Baratheon should definitely claim whatever their empowered power is and what they did last night. I'm not convinced we (Stark) should claim ours, and I'm generally in favor of Targaryens claiming but have no particular reason to be other than sheer curiosity.

I don't think we should PR claim, don't know if that's what Voltaire was thinking.

[ashersky]

I didn't claim my flavor.  No one seems bothered by that.

[Teproc]

I suppose you didn't. It doesn't matter though.

[Witherweaver]

Uh feel bad about lunching pps since he was vla and said he will start being active. Also don't fully like the pacovf lynch since I think he's really helpful if the game still goes on. Still would rather egork or xp but those arnt happening.

This is scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumy in light of PPS flipping Mafia.

[Witherweaver]

As well:

What's so good about EgorK?  You see no promise of him becoming more active?

Pretty much. If we go for. Lurker lynch I don't know if egork will ever be super active where I'm willing to give pps a bit of time to come back from vla

[Hydrad]

Uh feel bad about lunching pps since he was vla and said he will start being active. Also don't fully like the pacovf lynch since I think he's really helpful if the game still goes on. Still would rather egork or xp but those arnt happening.

This is scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumy in light of PPS flipping Mafia.

And this is why I knew I would be suspected today. I was planning on voting him if needed but I left for 10 minutes and when I came back he was already hammered. I know you have no way to believe that though

[Witherweaver]

Last post from Hydrad before the lynch:

The case on PPS isn't that he's lurking; it's that he's emulating his town meta.

The case on EgorK is, as far as I can tell, nothing beyond lurking.

Right but I guess I don't know his meta well so for me it's more. Lurking case.

I responded how the PPS case makes sense even if you don't know his meta.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah. I don't know why he doesn't have more votes. A bunch of people expressed agreement with my case and then almost no one voted. That makes me feel better about lynching Hydrad today.

[Teproc]

Uh feel bad about lunching pps since he was vla and said he will start being active. Also don't fully like the pacovf lynch since I think he's really helpful if the game still goes on. Still would rather egork or xp but those arnt happening.

This is scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumy in light of PPS flipping Mafia.

And this is why I knew I would be suspected today. I was planning on voting him if needed but I left for 10 minutes and when I came back he was already hammered. I know you have no way to believe that though

If it makes you feel better, I fully believe you'd have hammered. But scum would definitely bus in that spot, which is why the azadin kill is relatively surprising.

PPE : Ichi, I haven't voted yet because we have things to discuss before lynching. Barring someone claiming a scum result or something, I'm 99% lynching Hydrad today.

[Hydrad]

Last post from Hydrad before the lynch:

The case on PPS isn't that he's lurking; it's that he's emulating his town meta.

The case on EgorK is, as far as I can tell, nothing beyond lurking.

Right but I guess I don't know his meta well so for me it's more. Lurking case.

I responded how the PPS case makes sense even if you don't know his meta.

Ya you did. But then I left for a few minutes and before i could post again the day was over.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Uh feel bad about lunching pps since he was vla and said he will start being active. Also don't fully like the pacovf lynch since I think he's really helpful if the game still goes on. Still would rather egork or xp but those arnt happening.

This is scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumy in light of PPS flipping Mafia.

And this is why I knew I would be suspected today. I was planning on voting him if needed but I left for 10 minutes and when I came back he was already hammered. I know you have no way to believe that though

If it makes you feel better, I fully believe you'd have hammered. But scum would definitely bus in that spot, which is why the azadin kill is relatively surprising.

PPE : Ichi, I haven't voted yet because we have things to discuss before lynching. Barring someone claiming a scum result or something, I'm 99% lynching Hydrad today.

Thanks, I appreciate that since I was getting slightly concerned. And yes of course we want to at least let this day play out for a while with the claims and everything. It's not like we need to lynch him instantly, but I don't think my vote is going anywhere else today.

[Hydrad]

Well this is bad then. So in this situation if I'm getting lynched is there anyway I can still help town? I know its not confirmed that I'm dying today but I'm fine with getting lynched as long as I can help town somehow. My biggest issue is that the wagon on me might not even give any info. I feel like scum won't even be needed to jump on my wagon if i'm the only lynch candidate and you won't have any more info for the next day.

Scum can just pretend to defend me hard now and I'll still die at this rate while they will get town points.

[Teproc]

Well this is bad then. So in this situation if I'm getting lynched is there anyway I can still help town?

Easy : who do you think is scum, in light of PPS' flip ?

And for that matter, who do you think is town ?

[ashersky]

Also sensible not to lynch too quickly given there may be more house moves needed, right?

[Teproc]

Also sensible not to lynch too quickly given there may be more house moves needed, right?

That's what I meant by "things to discuss" among other.

If we lynch Hydrad, that's three Baratheon down, how may does that leave them with ? Voltaire, Egork, silver and Robz ? Still fine I suppose, depending on what their empowered power is.

[Hydrad]

WW and Volt are pretty much IC's for me.

I think silver has a high chance of being town also. In our QT I think it might almost be all town because of the azadin kill. As in our QT it looks like people didn't really trust him fully as town as I thought of Volt or WW but then scum went and killed him. So maybe they thought he was going to be ICish and wanted to take him out?

[Hydrad]

Also sensible not to lynch too quickly given there may be more house moves needed, right?

That's what I meant by "things to discuss" among other.

If we lynch Hydrad, that's three Baratheon down, how may does that leave them with ? Voltaire, Egork, silver and Robz ? Still fine I suppose, depending on what their empowered power is.

Robzz is in Tar

[silverspawn]

what happens if the hand of the king gets lynched? can the house just select another one?

[Hydrad]

what happens if the hand of the king gets lynched? can the house just select another one?

I think every night we revote

[Hydrad]

Oh man I just realized that I have almost no chance of surviving today. I'm looking at all the people to suspect and its still XP as my biggest scumread and its not even a great case. From my town reads I can't really even pick more people out that I think are scummy. Through pretty much POE even I would vote for me if it was someone else :/.

I'm guessing there has to be at least one scum that jumped onto the PPS wagon and probably one off? The scummiest one off the wagon for me might be asher? But even then I still have a townie read on him. And I can't think that all scum was on that wagon. They probably could of forced it onto someone else so I can't really think that all scum is on his wagon. This is really hard though. I'm going to try and figure out a few more scummy people.

[ashersky]

Oh man I just realized that I have almost no chance of surviving today. I'm looking at all the people to suspect and its still XP as my biggest scumread and its not even a great case. From my town reads I can't really even pick more people out that I think are scummy. Through pretty much POE even I would vote for me if it was someone else :/.

I'm guessing there has to be at least one scum that jumped onto the PPS wagon and probably one off? The scummiest one off the wagon for me might be asher? But even then I still have a townie read on him. And I can't think that all scum was on that wagon. They probably could of forced it onto someone else so I can't really think that all scum is on his wagon. This is really hard though. I'm going to try and figure out a few more scummy people.

I love wagon analysis as much as the next guy.  I also love manipulating wagon analysis as scum (as I've said in QTs and subsequently been caught doing in games immediately following those QT games when the mod of that game was town in the next).

I think the azadin kill was for that purpose (if there is veteran scum remaining).  I think your paragraph up there sounds a lot like that, too.

[Teproc]

What do you think the azadin kill is saying ash ?  Usually killing on-wagon suggests scum is off-wagon, do you thinks there's some WIFOM there ?

Because it could also be inexperienced scum thinking azadin is obvtown because of the hammer.

[ashersky]

What do you think the azadin kill is saying ash ?  Usually killing on-wagon suggests scum is off-wagon, do you thinks there's some WIFOM there ?

Because it could also be inexperienced scum thinking azadin is obvtown because of the hammer.

Here's the final vote count:

pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, EgorK
XerxesPraelor (3): Hydrad, pingpongsam, silverspawn
pingpongsam (7): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor, Voltaire, azadin

You've got a split of 6 vs. 7, with the dead scum in the six.  So really, it's 7 vs. 5.

We don't know how many players are scum.  We only had one death last night, so it's a fair assumption (65%?) that there's only one team.  Doesn't mean there isn't a Survivor/SK/etc., but I'm working off the one team assumption until we have something to tell us there's more.

In a game of 13, we're looking at 3-4 scum.  So 2-3 alive, spread between 7/5.

What do I think that means for the azadin kill?  Clearly it's helping even up the spread, since 7/5 becomes 6/5.

{ashersky - WW - EgorK - Hydrad - SS} and {IG, Tep, Robz, Pacovf, XP, Voltaire} in the other.

What else do I think of the azadin kill?  A few points:

--could be inexperienced scum making that assumption, but I don't think so.  I think inexperienced scum goes "man, Voltaire was basically super town all day."  Or "man, there was a lot of talk of WW being an IC based on that flavor thing."  So I don't think azadin is at the top of their "obvtown" list.
--could be a simple matter of "man, we really need a kill to go through, so let's aim away from possible doctor targets."
--could be, "let's protect ourselves percentage wise."

I think scum absolutely had to bus, and it wouldnt' surprise me for multiple scum to be on wagon.  But an on-wagon kill makes you think they are more likely off-wagon.  So that was a good move if they were on.

Any player alive needs to look at the two bracketed groups.  Look at yours, and decide if you have strong town reads with you.  Then you could try to re-read the others in that grouping.  It'll be harder to scumhunt the other group just because it's bigger.  I think the best play today is to think in these terms:

"There is one scum remaining in my group of 5/6.  I need to find them."  This isn't necessarily true, since it's just as likely more than 1.  But if you put yourself in a late game mindset, thinking find the remaining scum from the other 4 players (instead of other 10), that makes it more manageable.

Make sense?

[Teproc]

Well first of all I'd say the "avoiding protective roles" thing definitively was the major factor in the azadin kill. There might have been PR hunting (didn't get that from azadin but I'd need to reread), and then there's maybe wagon PoE fighting/WIFOMing.

What makes you think scum had to bus ? pacovf was still possible pretty much until the end. I mean I agree there's likely one scum on wagon, but I wouldn't be that shocked if they were all off. A scumteam of {PPS, Hydrad, Egork} doesn't look crazy to me for example.

As for your way of thinking, while it does make sense, I think we have enough very townie people that we can just look at a bigger group and PoE from there. But your method works too.

[ashersky]

Well first of all I'd say the "avoiding protective roles" thing definitively was the major factor in the azadin kill. There might have been PR hunting (didn't get that from azadin but I'd need to reread), and then there's maybe wagon PoE fighting/WIFOMing.

What makes you think scum had to bus ? pacovf was still possible pretty much until the end. I mean I agree there's likely one scum on wagon, but I wouldn't be that shocked if they were all off. A scumteam of {PPS, Hydrad, Egork} doesn't look crazy to me for example.

As for your way of thinking, while it does make sense, I think we have enough very townie people that we can just look at a bigger group and PoE from there. But your method works too.

Don't need to use my method, of course.  But for me, for example, look at my off-wagon grouping.  Pretty nice for me, as I've got little in the way of strong town reads there (I don't buy the free IC thing based on flavor name, for example).  HYdrad and EgorK look bad anyway.  So I'd basically be re-reading there, with WW/SS as possible sleepers.

So it works in my case.  If you are in the other, say, and you have a strong townread on Voltaire, that reduces that 6 to 4.   And so on.

[Teproc]

WW should be counted on wagon if you're considering him, since he had intent to hammer.

[ashersky]

WW should be counted on wagon if you're considering him, since he had intent to hammer.

You've never said "intent to hammer" and not meant it?  Or seen that?

[Teproc]

Well I asked WW not to hammer so that azadin could do it because it as more useful to have him on wagon...

I think WW is 95% town anyway, and his hammer is irrelevant to his alignement as scum would very likely hammer there, but you know. I would count him as on wagon in these circumstances.

And I've never said intent to hammer without meaning it. That's true of almost everyone who plays mafia here except for you and, like, 2 other people, not only because it's bold, but also because you can only hope to get away with it in very specific circumstances. This was not one of them, there was till 20 minutes to deadline and soemone else was also there to hammer, so absolutely no point in doing that.

[Voltaire]

STOP VOTING

Hey everyone. I'm back. My first post was when I was still V/LA because I really wanted to see what happened at night.

House Baratheon contained everyone it was supposed to last night (EgorK, Hydrad, azadin, Voltaire and silverspawn)

Baratheon's empowerment is that our Ignition action is now strongman. This confirms to me that empowered powers are very recognizable as the original ones.

Thoughts:

• azadin being in flavor was because he hammered. Teproc, I famously used you in flavor because you hammered. Now, that faust used azadin's flavor and not his name is a little dicey, but flavor was stated to have no impact on alignment, and that's why I think we saw it used.
• I meant full claim - as in, claim everything. That's what I want considered. Not necessarily what I want done. I haven't decided myself yet.
• I was elected Hand of the King in Baratheon. We decided because we lynched scum, it was okay to do this.
• Everyone but azadin and EgorK voted me for Hand, azadin because he didn't understand that you couldn't change your vote, and put down a placeholder vote for himself, and I'd been "hammered" as Hand before EgorK posted
• I declined to tell my House if I would prime anyone last night. I made this clear in my pitch to be elected Hand.

Everyone should claim their Houses ASAP to start.

We already have Targ and Baratheon accounted for. Stark, you should reveal your membership and if you were empowered, to confirm Lannister is gone.

[Voltaire]

How many PRs do we think scum has, btw? We lynched the jailkeeper, we should probably expect they have 0.5-1 more if they're a 3-man team?

[ashersky]

How many PRs do we think scum has, btw? We lynched the jailkeeper, we should probably expect they have 0.5-1 more if they're a 3-man team?

I'd guess one.  Jailkeeper was key for them -- I actually think that if they don't control a house anymore, a cop could claim and be followed with the Stark power.

[Voltaire]

What do you mean, if they don't control a House anymore?

[ashersky]

What do you mean, if they don't control a House anymore?

I mean anymore, like at all, or at this time.  I didn't even realize I typed it until you asked.

Possibly a scumslip argument to be made (as in, scum controlled one before, but doesn't anymore).

[Voltaire]

Also, I agree with you. But I want Stark to claim membership, and claim their empowerment, before we move to that step.

[Voltaire]

What I think the next step should be:

Stark claims membership and Empowerment power (if they became empowered). Stark reveals who they elected (if anyone) to perform their action. This person does not reveal who they protected.

[ashersky]

Also, I agree with you. But I want Stark to claim membership, and claim their empowerment, before we move to that step.

Things to worry about, I suppose:

--roleblocker or house-blocker
--godfather
--redirector/bus-driver
--strongman or house-specific strongman

I think those are the most likely scum powers that would be able to overcome an FTC.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Well since it seems like I'm the only member of Stark around right now, I could answer those questions.

[Voltaire]

Ok. Well since it seems like I'm the only member of Stark around right now, I could answer those questions.

Please do. I honestly think I should be about equal to WW in near-IC status.

[Voltaire]

Also, I agree with you. But I want Stark to claim membership, and claim their empowerment, before we move to that step.

Things to worry about, I suppose:

--roleblocker or house-blocker
--godfather
--redirector/bus-driver
--strongman or house-specific strongman

I think those are the most likely scum powers that would be able to overcome an FTC.

Yes. Though we can always move people to Stark (or out of Barath) to make Stark strongman if we need to.

Also, FTC? Don't know what you mean.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Well since it seems like I'm the only member of Stark around right now, I could answer those questions.

Please do. I honestly think I should be about equal to WW in near-IC status.

I agree. Just sheer number of votes against PPS by you was insane 

Anyway. Members of House Stark are: Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, and pacovf.

Our power allows us to choose one player during the night and they will be protected from any kill for that night (sorry, slightly awkward cause I'm paraphrasing).

Our empowerment condition was the destruction of House Lannister--and it is fulfilled. We unanimously voted Teproc to be Hand of the King last night. And he made the target decision secretly so only he knows.

[Voltaire]

So you are a full doctor now?

[Ichimaru Gin]

So you are a full doctor now?

Yeah. Nowhere did it actually say doctor, but that's pretty much what our power does now that we're empowered.

[Voltaire]

Amazing. More to follow.

[silverspawn]

not just doctor, as it protects from all kills, right?

it's interesting that empowering does so much more for stark than it did for baratheon.

[ashersky]

Also, FTC? Don't know what you mean.

Follow The Cop.

With a full doctor capability in town hands, it's possible if there's a cop/tracker/etc. in the setup.  I think the JK makes that somewhat likely.

[Voltaire]

Current Gamestate

Parenthesis after a player's name indicates how many moves they have remaining.

House Baratheon - arsonist (with strongman ignition as long as they have the most members)
EgorK(2), Hydrad(2), Voltaire(1), silverspawn(1)

House Stark - "complete" doctor (permanent, Lannister is extinct)
pacofv(2), Teproc(2), IG(1)

House Targ -
Robz(2), WW(2), XP(2)

Houseless
ashersky(1)

[Voltaire]

My current plan:

1. Targ decides if they're going to claim ASAP (I really think they should, as this will affect the following steps)
2. We move enough people to Stark to give them Hand of the King and make their doctor power strongman
3. We massclaim (in an order prepared by me/WW, though I think it should be me)
4. Stark prepares to doctor whomever is appropriate
5. We lynch based off reads/PPS's flip

Point out problems if you see 'em.

[Voltaire]

I should point out, of course, that really step 3 needs to be step 6 because we need to make sure any PRs worth protecting aren't in Stark.

[Voltaire]

And by that last post I meant Step 2 should be Step 6.

[Hydrad]

That plan looks good to me.

[Hydrad]

Well actually I'm slightly against a mass claim. I don't know if anyone has had much to do with PRs yet. I like a later claim better. Also we need to be careful with pr claiming because they can't hit anyone in their house. So scum will be able to figure out if they are safe from vigs or if people can't be doctored. I think claiming in this setup is dangerous. I think people should keep 1 move to all go house less near the end so they can target whoever.

Although you have to be careful of scum taking a house over. Claiming PRs in this setup is really dangerous I think.

[ashersky]

My current plan:

1. Targ decides if they're going to claim ASAP (I really think they should, as this will affect the following steps)
2. We move enough people to Stark to give them Hand of the King and make their doctor power strongman
3. We massclaim (in an order prepared by me/WW, though I think it should be me)
4. Stark prepares to doctor whomever is appropriate
5. We lynch based off reads/PPS's flip

Point out problems if you see 'em.

I'm pretty sure the right move will be moving all players into Stark.  I can explain why when we get to that step.

[Voltaire]

I strongly disagree, Hydrad. Also, I can strongman Stark while leaving everyone at least 1 move, even before anyone claims:

Hydrad > Stark

Done. We could move more if we wanted to insure against mafia moving out of Stark (if they're in there) or more into Baratheon to mess with this.

[Voltaire]

I'm pretty sure the right move will be moving all players into Stark.  I can explain why when we get to that step.

Fascinating and I'm curious why, because I can't see it right now.

[silverspawn]

My current plan:

1. Targ decides if they're going to claim ASAP (I really think they should, as this will affect the following steps)
2. We move enough people to Stark to give them Hand of the King and make their doctor power strongman
3. We massclaim (in an order prepared by me/WW, though I think it should be me)
4. Stark prepares to doctor whomever is appropriate
5. We lynch based off reads/PPS's flip

Point out problems if you see 'em.

I think WW should do the list.

otherwise, no problem.

[Voltaire]

Just to be clear, you're trusting a mod-"slip" more than someone who "drove" a scum D1 lynch?

[Voltaire]

Everyone keep re-reading/doing POE-lists like ash said. In my opinion we're waiting on WW to announce whether Targ is claiming. I strongly think they should.

[Robz888]

House Targaryen is currently discussing whether to claim House PR.

[ashersky]

House Targaryen is currently discussing whether to claim House PR.

Robz, what is your opinion?  Claim?  No claim?

Do you think the power is pro-town no matter what?  Could be abused by scum?

[Robz888]

House Targaryen is currently discussing whether to claim House PR.

Robz, what is your opinion?  Claim?  No claim?

Do you think the power is pro-town no matter what?  Could be abused by scum?

I'm fairly okay with claiming, but won't overrule WW.

I'm not going to say whether it's an explicitly pro-town, or possibly pro-scum, PR until we know for sure that we are claiming.

I will say that I think my House is entirely town right now (it's just me, WW, and XP). And I don't want anyone else to join it.

[EgorK]

I saw egorK on here earlier and he has yet to post. Although I still feel very strongly about Hydrad, egorK's insane lurking looks scummy to me as well. And I now see it as more of an intentional tactic, making me feel much scummier about him.

I just read from phone. And I hate phone posting. I'll give my thoughts on current developments when I am caught up on thread again

PPE: quite a bit

[EgorK]

I want to clarify somewhat about Baratheon empowered power. Due to the fact empowered condition already can only be preformed by hand of a king it was already strongman anyway. But I believe strongman is usually stoped by 2 shot bp (consuming both shots) or similar. Well, empowered ignition would bypass any such limitations

[EgorK]

Hydrad case. Very strong case here, through I hadn't noticed any difference with how Hydrad played as town. I hadn't play with scum Hydrad yet

I would vote when Volt would lift his ban on voting. I find Volt strongest town read here, much more so then WW. I think he should provide any ordering of claims or such stuff

Where is Pac? Is he vla?

[Teproc]

Volt heavy bussing exists, and the pps wagon didn't look like it was going to happen for a while. I think you're likely to be town, but not an IC.

Arguably WW preventing XP from being lynched did more for the PPS lynch than anything else.

Regardless, as far as your plan goes, the problem with moving people into Stark is that you reduce the amount of targets available for protection obviously. I don't think Strongman is as valuable as a variety of targets. In fact I'd be in favor of having only one obvtown person in Stark if we can afford the moves and depending on the Targ power.

[silverspawn]

Just to be clear, you're trusting a mod-"slip" more than someone who "drove" a scum D1 lynch?

I thought we all agreed that he is an IC. you are not an IC, you're just a fairly strong town read for a lot of people. he is like 98%, you're like 90%. not even close.

[Voltaire]

Volt heavy bussing exists, and the pps wagon didn't look like it was going to happen for a while. I think you're likely to be town, but not an IC.

Arguably WW preventing XP from being lynched did more for the PPS lynch than anything else.

Regardless, as far as your plan goes, the problem with moving people into Stark is that you reduce the amount of targets available for protection obviously. I don't think Strongman is as valuable as a variety of targets. In fact I'd be in favor of having only one obvtown person in Stark if we can afford the moves and depending on the Targ power.

I don't disagree with any of this. This is why claim.

[Witherweaver]

Volt heavy bussing exists, and the pps wagon didn't look like it was going to happen for a while. I think you're likely to be town, but not an IC.

Arguably WW preventing XP from being lynched did more for the PPS lynch than anything else.

Regardless, as far as your plan goes, the problem with moving people into Stark is that you reduce the amount of targets available for protection obviously. I don't think Strongman is as valuable as a variety of targets. In fact I'd be in favor of having only one obvtown person in Stark if we can afford the moves and depending on the Targ power.

*flex*

[Witherweaver]

Going to go ahead and claim Targ:

Our power is Roleblock. (I know, not that exciting, but you can probably see why it didn't really  help in planning, and keeping scum in the dark can be a good thing.  Plus, chance to block an action and see how people react.)

Our empowered power is, if we choose to Roleblock someone, we may additionally choose to Rolestop them.  Rolestop prevents all night actions except killing from affecting the target.

Our empowerment condition is: We are empowered when the average of our House's weighted votes is greater than or equal to each other house's average weighted votes.  We would have became empowered last night regardless (since everyone has a weighted vote of 2 at the beginning of the night), but no one joining us helps ensure we would stay empowered.  Our average weighted vote is now 3.

Not going to (at this point) claim last night's choices.

[faust]

Vote Count 2.1

Hydrad (3): Ichimaru Gin, silverspawn, Witherweaver

Not Voting (8): pacovf, ashersky, Hydrad, Teproc, XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Robz888, Voltaire

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[Voltaire]

Current Gamestate (going into N2)

<x> indicates weighted vote in House. (y) indicates how many House moves they have remaining.

<avg=2.5>House Baratheon - arsonist (with strongman ignition as long as they have the most members)
<3>EgorK(2), <3>Hydrad(2), <2>Voltaire(1), <2>silverspawn(1)

<2.67>House Stark - "complete" doctor (permanent, Lannister is extinct)
<3>pacofv(2), <3>Teproc(2), <2>IG(1)

<3>House Targ - roleblocker (rolestopper as long as average weighted votes >= other average weighted votes)
<3>Robz(2), <3>WW(2), <3>XP(2)

Houseless
<0>ashersky(1)

[Voltaire]

So...as long as we can control the Houses, we can probably Follow the Cop (-ish, if we have one) like ash suggested. And I think the data from PPS's flip is huge, and if we pretended this was a vanilla game we'd still have a great chance of getting a PPS partner today. Combine both, and I think we're in absurdly good shape.

Before a mass-claim and lynch, here's my best framework for tonight:

We move someone out of Baratheon and into Stark. This ensures that Stark will be strongman in its doctoring. If there is scum in Targ, they cannot control the power tonight unless TWO scum are in Targ - the best they can do is prevent it from being used. I am comfortable gambling that Robz and XP are not both scum.

How might scum seek to sabotage this? They could move into Baratheon or Targ from somewhere to mess this up, but then tomorrow opens and they have made themselves obv!scum. They could have a roleblocker of their own, but that doesn't matter because Stark is strongman. If they have their own strongman, then the term begins to lose meaning because how do you even.

Of course, I think we should massclaim, and I think massclaim will provide us with a better plan. It will likely mean ensuring whoever is the PR we want to live is outside of Stark, if they're not already, and potentially coming up with a plan for any other PRs (to prove/use themselves). This of course also has the "scum have to fakeclaim pretty early" advantage for down the road.

All of this doesn't touch on the fact that I have a POE pool of like three people because of how yesterday went down.

WW, massclaim yay/nay? If you say nay we should move on. If you say yay we should start ASAP.

[Voltaire]

Also, I don't know if it was ever publicly shared, but azadin started out the game as Hand of the King.

[Hydrad]

Current Gamestate (going into N2)

<x> indicates weighted vote in House. (y) indicates how many House moves they have remaining.

<avg=2.5>House Baratheon - arsonist (with strongman ignition as long as they have the most members)
<3>EgorK(2), <3>Hydrad(2), <2>Voltaire(1), <2>silverspawn(1)

<2.67>House Stark - "complete" doctor (permanent, Lannister is extinct)
<3>pacofv(2), <3>Teproc(2), <2>IG(1)

<3>House Targ - roleblocker (rolestopper as long as average weighted votes >= other average weighted votes)
<3>Robz(2), <3>WW(2), <3>XP(2)

Houseless
<0>ashersky(1)

I think we all started with 2 votes actually. even though people swapped N1 everyone had 2 votes.

[Voltaire]

This is going into N2. People who stayed in their original Houses now have 3 (that went up at the end of N1).

[Hydrad]

This is going into N2. People who stayed in their original Houses now have 3 (that went up at the end of N1).

Oh I was pretty sure that we all started at 2 votes and everyone in their own house has 3 votes now. I don't think the house moving affecting voting power for the first day? but i could of misunderstood.

[Voltaire]

This is going into N2. People who stayed in their original Houses now have 3 (that went up at the end of N1).

Oh I was pretty sure that we all started at 2 votes and everyone in their own house has 3 votes now. I don't think the house moving affecting voting power for the first day? but i could of misunderstood.

You're saying the same thing I am.

[Witherweaver]

Wait, why do we think we have a cop?  Because of the House roles?

[Voltaire]

Wait, why do we think we have a cop?  Because of the House roles?

Look at how much strongman/blocking there is (scum had a jailkeeper, Hand of the King buff, Targ House power, etc. etc.).

Pretend we know there is a cop. Massclaim, right? So then it's just an issue of, do we have a cop.

[Teproc]

Stark's empowerement condition points to Lannister's empowered power being investigative (since it's an obvious way to avoid a follow the cop strategy).

If our only reason to massclaim is "what if we have a cop ?", why don't we just ask investigative powers only to claim ?

[Witherweaver]

Huh, but.. problems.  Say there is a cop.  Then keep Cop out of Stark and Stark on the throne and permanently protect Cop.  As Stark members die move others that aren't Stark into Stark.  Can abandon other houses if needed.  We just keep getting results and win win win.

This leads me to believe there isn't a cop.

This leads me to think that scum's best option is fake claiming Cop, because if there is one they're screwed anyway, so might as well try it.

Also, I think we don't need Baratheon.

Did Baratheon vote to not use their power?

[silverspawn]

Stark's empowerement condition points to Lannister's empowered power being investigative (since it's an obvious way to avoid a follow the cop strategy).

If our only reason to massclaim is "what if we have a cop ?", why don't we just ask investigative powers only to claim ?

if investigate powers claim anyway, isn't it smarter to massclaim? that way, we get scum in trouble, and since we reveal powers anyway it's no disadvantage.

[Voltaire]

Baratheon voted to give their power to me. I was Hand of the King last night. I'm not revealing if I used it or not.

[Witherweaver]

Baratheon voted to give their power to me. I was Hand of the King last night. I'm not revealing if I used it or not.

The night is dark, and full of terrors.

[Voltaire]

I could keep being coy, or I could just say it, since I've always known I was just going to say it.

I am an investigative role with a result from N1.

So, let's take it from here.

[Witherweaver]

Alright, then.. I guess mass claim is good?

Though, too bad we didn't get the chance to let scum fake a Cop role

[Voltaire]

Alright, then.. I guess mass claim is good?

Though, too bad we didn't get the chance to let scum fake a Cop role

Well, it didn't seem like you were going to end up supporting mass claim, so...it's all good.

[silverspawn]

I could keep being coy, or I could just say it, since I've always known I was just going to say it.

I am an investigative role with a result from N1.

So, let's take it from here.

mh, but why don't we do an ordered massclaim instead? you shouldn't have to claim first

but oh well. i'm a one-shot cop. I used my shot N1 on XP and received Innocent.

[Voltaire]

STOP FREAKING CLAIMING

[Hydrad]

want me to claim next?

[Robz888]

Slow down all. Let Voltaire and WW run the show here.

[Voltaire]

mh, but why don't we do an ordered massclaim instead? you shouldn't have to claim first

Have you been following our conversation? It didn't look like WW was going to support an organized massclaim, which is obviously best. I claimed (obviously not my target or result) to indicate that we need to massclaim. After I posted that, (I assume) WW started working up a claiming order, with me last. Your claim is a derp that messes with this.

[Teproc]

We should wait for a WW-provided order...


PPE : 5

[Voltaire]

And when I say "obviously best", I mean that I know it's obviously best, but WW can't, so his initial hesitation is completely understandable and I knew I needed to change his mind.

[Teproc]

mh, but why don't we do an ordered massclaim instead? you shouldn't have to claim first

Have you been following our conversation? It didn't look like WW was going to support an organized massclaim, which is obviously best. I claimed (obviously not my target or result) to indicate that we need to massclaim. After I posted that, (I assume) WW started working up a claiming order, with me last. Your claim is a derp that messes with this.

It's not great, but what's done is done anyway.

[silverspawn]

well sorry? you claimed, I took it as, we don't massclaim, but investigative roles claim, as that's what has been said before

besides, I would end up early on the list anyway.

[Voltaire]

I don't think it's that bad. At this point we wait for WW to come up with a claim order for everyone who is left.

[Witherweaver]

I probably have to think for a bit on the order.. do you have one in mind, Volt?  I'm okay with you, then me last.  I have a hunch we have a similar set of people on PoE, which we'd want up front.

[Voltaire]

This one's mine. I'm somewhat flexible but don't want people moving more than 1-2 spots off this without good reason.

Hydrad
ashersky
EgorK
Robz888
pacovf
Ichimaru Gin
XerxesPraelor
Teproc
Voltaire
Witherweaver

[Teproc]

I would probably put Egork above ash but otherwise I agree with Voltaire's list.

[Witherweaver]

I would only modify it slightly:

Hydrad
ashersky
EgorK
Ichimaru Gin
pacovf
Robz888
XerxesPraelor
Teproc
Voltaire
Witherweaver

[Voltaire]

I'm fine with that.

[Hydrad]

should I claim right away?

[Teproc]

So... waiting for Hydrad to claim now.

PPE : Go ahead.

[Hydrad]

I'm

Davos Seaworth, the Vanilla Lord

and thats pretty much it.

[Teproc]

Ok. Ash now.

[Voltaire]

ashersky, we're massclaiming. You're up.

[ashersky]

ashersky, we're massclaiming. You're up.

vote: silverspawn

Here's why we move all of you to Stark.  Remove all other possible house powers, ensure a strongman doctor (so long as town controls the power), the cop never dies.

Remember when you all wanted me to break the setup?  Yeah.

I am Roose Bolton, the Realm-aligned Cop.

My responses are realm-aligned or mafia.  I can only target players not in my house.  Ergo, all in Stark but me, follow the cop as I check all of you.

I see no logical scenario where SS's claim is true.

I am assuming you are a different kind of investigator (tracker?).

[Hydrad]

so much investigation!

[Teproc]

Interesting.

Who did you target on N1 ?

[Hydrad]

Interesting.

Who did you target on N1 ?

I'm guessing SS.

[Robz888]

Interesting.

Who did you target on N1 ?

I'm guessing SS.

Never answer other people's questions for them.

[Hydrad]

wait no. I have no real idea actually. I'll just let everyone claim before I start making assumptions I guess.

[Hydrad]

Interesting.

Who did you target on N1 ?

I'm guessing SS.

Never answer other people's questions for them.

Ya I just realized that. Sorry

[Teproc]

Interesting.

*writes a check to IG*

[silverspawn]

no, if he targeted me he'd have received innocent. if I understood him correctly, he voted for me because he doesn't like my claim. and, I have no idea why. if ash is a cop, then there can be multiple cops in the setup.

PPE4

[Ichimaru Gin]

Interesting.

*writes a check to IG*

Cha ching!

[Teproc]

no, if he targeted me he'd have received innocent. if I understood him correctly, he voted for me because he doesn't like my claim. and, I have no idea why. if ash is a cop, then there can be multiple cops in the setup.

PPE4

This is better discussed after everyone claims I think.

[Witherweaver]

no, if he targeted me he'd have received innocent. if I understood him correctly, he voted for me because he doesn't like my claim. and, I have no idea why. if ash is a cop, then there can be multiple cops in the setup.

PPE4

This is better discussed after everyone claims I think.

It's not better for Ash to reveal his target and result now?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Who knows when whole will be back.  I could wait,  or I could claim right now. Since it's only one out of order.

Phone Post

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry my phone corrected egork as Whole for some reason.  I meant egork there.

[Teproc]

no, if he targeted me he'd have received innocent. if I understood him correctly, he voted for me because he doesn't like my claim. and, I have no idea why. if ash is a cop, then there can be multiple cops in the setup.

PPE4

This is better discussed after everyone claims I think.

It's not better for Ash to reveal his target and result now?

I meant the reasons he voted silver etc.

Obviously ash should reveal his target, that's part of claiming.

[ashersky]

I'll withhold my result until claims are done.

[Teproc]

Who knows when whole will be back.  I could wait,  or I could claim right now. Since it's only one out of order.

Phone Post

We've got time. The order is here for a reason.

[Teproc]

I'll withhold my result until claims are done.

That's not how massclaiming is done.

[ashersky]

I'll withhold my result until claims are done.

That's not how massclaiming is done.

Maybe not.

I'll amend.  I will claim my result at some point after my target claims.

There is value in holding back results until the right moment.

[EgorK]

I am Melisandre, Vanilla Lady

[Teproc]

I'll withhold my result until claims are done.

That's not how massclaiming is done.

Maybe not.

I'll amend.  I will claim my result at some point after my target claims.

There is value in holding back results until the right moment.

Obviously there's value in that, no one is denying that, the problem is that there is great value in waiting for scum.

PPE : So Egork claimed. Was it Egork ?

Ichi please don't claim yet, I'm not sure we want to let ash wait.

[Voltaire]

ash absolutely does not get to wait. We can lynch him now if he'd prefer.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok glad I checked again before posting, cause I was just about to claim.

[EgorK]

I'll withhold my result until claims are done.

That's not how massclaiming is done.

Maybe not.

I'll amend.  I will claim my result at some point after my target claims.

There is value in holding back results until the right moment.

Obviously there's value in that, no one is denying that, the problem is that there is great value in waiting for scum.

PPE : So Egork claimed. Was it Egork ?

Ichi please don't claim yet, I'm not sure we want to let ash wait.

I do not see how mafia imposting cop need to wait. Unless of course there are more than one faction. And XP now most ICest IC to me (unless ss is scum and that bold to point to his only partner)

[Voltaire]

ash, if you're town, I get that there's value in waiting. But you need to give us something (your result) for us to give you something (belief of your claim).*

*I know this is ironic what with me half-claimed myself, but I gave my initial claim to get the massclaim rolling, and now WW and Teproc, my two biggest town reads, have agreed to put you at the top of the massclaim and me at the bottom so, what can you do.

[EgorK]

Through with this amount of investigative roles and house powers to boot there may be more than 3 scum of course to balance

[Teproc]

Through with this amount of investigative roles and house powers to boot there may be more than 3 scum of course to balance

That's one interpretation.

[Hydrad]

huh interesting. I didn't think it would be a problem with ash waiting to say his investigation. I'm slightly confused as to why its such a big deal.

[EgorK]

Through with this amount of investigative roles and house powers to boot there may be more than 3 scum of course to balance

That's one interpretation.

The other one being 2 scum claimed investigative roles?

[Voltaire]

huh interesting. I didn't think it would be a problem with ash waiting to say his investigation. I'm slightly confused as to why its such a big deal.

scum!ash waits to see who is the most suspicious based on claims, or who is the most obviously town, and then goes "Hey guys! I have a result that confirms what you already knew!"

Or, alternately, scum!ash finds the most dangerous PR to his team, and fakes a guilty result, hoping to win the 50/50 split. He's lynched tomorrow, but got a strong PR mislynched today. And ashersky is famous, as scum, for knowing he won't live to the endgame - so he tries to go down in confusing flames.

Just two of many possibilities.

Another possibility is ash is town, of course.

[silverspawn]

Through with this amount of investigative roles and house powers to boot there may be more than 3 scum of course to balance

That's one interpretation.

The other one being 2 scum claimed investigative roles?

it makes zero sense for scum!me to claim PR so early when it wouldn't even have had to claim first.

[silverspawn]

it *I

[Teproc]

huh interesting. I didn't think it would be a problem with ash waiting to say his investigation. I'm slightly confused as to why its such a big deal.

The whole reason there's a claiming order is to make is that, hopefully, scum has the least information possible when making their claim.

Obviously ash would want to wait as much as possible regardless of his alignment, and if he's town we might be helping scum by asking him to do it now, but the whole reason he is before other people in the claiming order is because he's more likely to be scum than them.

PPE : 3

[pacovf]

Phone post, very low on battery, either I claim now or I claim in 48 hours, rather claim now: vainilla lord. I will post thoughts when I am back. Sorry for messing up with ash claim.

[ashersky]

ash absolutely does not get to wait. We can lynch him now if he'd prefer.

Then lynch me.

[Voltaire]

This is where we are:

ashersky (finishes claiming)
Ichimaru Gin
Robz888
XerxesPraelor
Teproc
Voltaire
Witherweaver

[Voltaire]

ash, if you're town, I get that there's value in waiting. But you need to give us something (your result) for us to give you something (belief of your claim).*

*I know this is ironic what with me half-claimed myself, but I gave my initial claim to get the massclaim rolling, and now WW and Teproc, my two biggest town reads, have agreed to put you at the top of the massclaim and me at the bottom so, what can you do.

[silverspawn]

well I will vote for you if you don't claim. Leaving you alive seems like it can lead my mislynch, and if you are really a cop, you will claim before you get lynched.

[silverspawn]

though, P is still alive, so maybe i'm worried over nothing.

[ashersky]

I could keep being coy, or I could just say it, since I've always known I was just going to say it.

I am an investigative role with a result from N1.

So, let's take it from here.

mh, but why don't we do an ordered massclaim instead? you shouldn't have to claim first

but oh well. i'm a one-shot cop. I used my shot N1 on XP and received Innocent.

Also, remember that SS just finished a game of C9++, where 1-shot cop is fairly normal sounding, the chance of multiple cops exists (which he argues later) and he even used the PM language from C9++ (Innocent result).

This is a scum fake claim.

XP is basically cleared, as I doubt he names his partner.

[ashersky]

ash, if you're town, I get that there's value in waiting. But you need to give us something (your result) for us to give you something (belief of your claim).*

*I know this is ironic what with me half-claimed myself, but I gave my initial claim to get the massclaim rolling, and now WW and Teproc, my two biggest town reads, have agreed to put you at the top of the massclaim and me at the bottom so, what can you do.

I gave you all of D1, where I know you picked up on it.  I gave you my full role.  If you really think I'm lying, my result doesn't matter.  If you believe me, you'll support me in waiting for my result when I think it's the right time.

Nothing I say actually changes that fundamental truth.

[silverspawn]

Also, remember that SS just finished a game of C9++, where 1-shot cop is fairly normal sounding, the chance of multiple cops exists (which he argues later) and he even used the PM language from C9++ (Innocent result).

I was a one-shot doctor in the game that I just finished. claiming an almost identical role is way too flat for me to do it as scum.

[Voltaire]

ash, I'll take that (about silver) under advisement. Now, your N1 result, please.

PPE: Yes, I know you claimed PR D1. You're either scum who was planning this (absolutely what you'd do) or scum risked leaving you alive to be mislynched/thought you were gambiting as a VT etc etc etc. We're trying to sort all that out right now.

[ashersky]

ash, I'll take that (about silver) under advisement. Now, your N1 result, please.

PPE: Yes, I know you claimed PR D1. You're either scum who was planning this (absolutely what you'd do) or scum risked leaving you alive to be mislynched/thought you were gambiting as a VT etc etc etc. We're trying to sort all that out right now.

If you don't believe my claim, lynch me.

If you do believe my claim, trust me that everyone will learn my result at the right time.

[Voltaire]

I need your result to know if I believe your claim.

[Teproc]

ash, I'll take that (about silver) under advisement. Now, your N1 result, please.

PPE: Yes, I know you claimed PR D1. You're either scum who was planning this (absolutely what you'd do) or scum risked leaving you alive to be mislynched/thought you were gambiting as a VT etc etc etc. We're trying to sort all that out right now.

If you don't believe my claim, lynch me.

If you do believe my claim, trust me that everyone will learn my result at the right time.

vote : ash

If you're town, you will claim your resul rather than be lynched. If you're town and don't claim rather than be lynched, you're just being anti-town and contrarian for the sake of it.

[Hydrad]

I know no one trusts my opinion right now but I feel I should still state it. I'm ok with asher waiting.

[silverspawn]

If you're town, you will claim your resul rather than be lynched. If you're town and don't claim rather than be lynched, you're just being anti-town and contrarian for the sake of it.

yes. I was about to vote for ash, but decided not to do it because I feared it'd make me scummy to vote for him first. yes I was self aware of that.

alas, vote: ash

[ashersky]

If you're town and don't claim rather than be lynched, you're just being anti-town and contrarian for the sake of it.

You know me well.

I already followed an arbitrary claim order decided by players of alignment unknown to all.  My result comes when I want.

[Voltaire]

vote: ashersky

I'm getting a "this is scum!ash who is disinterested/having difficulty faking his town self because he thinks the setup is against him" vibe, and I've been getting it since late D1.

You know what would help me shake this vibe? If I had a result...

[Teproc]

If you're town and don't claim rather than be lynched, you're just being anti-town and contrarian for the sake of it.

You know me well.

I already followed an arbitrary claim order decided by players of alignment unknown to all.  My result comes when I want.

I do, and this is why I'm making this point now : know that if you're town and accept to go down rather than do something you don't like, you are ruining the game. Plain and simple. You're letting your ego get in the way.

If you're scum what you're doing is fine, if you're town I hope you'll see that you have no choice, however much you'd rather be claiming later.

Something isn't arbitrary because you disagree with it.

[ashersky]

If you're town and don't claim rather than be lynched, you're just being anti-town and contrarian for the sake of it.

You know me well.

I already followed an arbitrary claim order decided by players of alignment unknown to all.  My result comes when I want.

I do, and this is why I'm making this point now : know that if you're town and accept to go down rather than do something you don't like, you are ruining the game. Plain and simple. You're letting your ego get in the way.

If you're scum what you're doing is fine, if you're town I hope you'll see that you have no choice, however much you'd rather be claiming later.

Something isn't arbitrary because you disagree with it.

I don't actually disagree with the claiming order.  It is truly arbitrary.

I am incensed with the innocent child crap that's been flying around this game, actually.  Incensed.  It makes me incredibly angry, in fact.

There is no mod-confirmed, set-up reason to believe WW is town.  It's been confirmed a million times that flavor names have no bearing on alignment.  A mod mistake on flavor names in PMs...it happens.  Not a big deal at all.  If there was a mod-mistake that gave town an IC, that'd be incredibly unfair to scum, right?  I've modded a lot, as you all know.  If I made an error that completely changed the balance of the setup, I'd have done something about it.  So would faust.

Anyway, as for your moralizing above -- you are not the Pope of f.ds.  You do not get to determine what is, and isn't, morally acceptable for town players.  Voltaire and I have had this argument in the past.

[ashersky]

To be clear, you will not bully me into claiming something I don't want to claim.

[Voltaire]

It's not that faust made the mistake, it's how WW reacted/pointed it out.

Also after lynching PPS I'm willing to consider him town until D45 if that makes you feel better.

[Teproc]

To be clear, you will not bully me into claiming something I don't want to claim.

Fine. If you're town and get lynched for this, I will never sign up for a game with you in it, ever again. This is not meant to be a threat, just an explanation of how I feel about this.

[Voltaire]

ash, how is withholding your result related to anything you just posted?

[ashersky]

To be clear, you will not bully me into claiming something I don't want to claim.

Fine. If you're town and get lynched for this, I will never sign up for a game with you in it, ever again. This is not meant to be a threat, just an explanation of how I feel about this.

This is you trying to blame the victim.

If a group of people decide collective to murder someone, it isn't the victim's fault.  (That's what the lynch represents, you know.)

It will take a majority of town deciding that they do not believe me.  If they don't believe me, that's on them, not on me.  I told the truth, I explained my motives, there's nothing left for me to do that doesn't go against my core values.

[Voltaire]

There is no mod-confirmed, set-up reason to believe WW is town.

When people say WW is an IC, there is an implied (at least for me) asterisk after the statement. He's not a true IC. We all know that. Typing it out every single time would be maddening.

[Voltaire]

If a group of people decide collective to murder someone, it isn't the victim's fault.  (That's what the lynch represents, you know.)

This is silly and inflammatory and you know it.

[Voltaire]

It will take a majority of town deciding that they do not believe me.  If they don't believe me, that's on them, not on me.  I told the truth, I explained my motives, there's nothing left for me to do that doesn't go against my core values.

Your core values of going to your grave a cop who didn't share his result?

[ashersky]

ash, how is withholding your result related to anything you just posted?

You can come up with many reasons for why a cop would withhold his result at a certain time.  If I give the reason(s), well, that's a good way to negate the reason, right?

As for relating to the current discussion -- I've tried to move on, but Teproc (currently, you previously) continues to push me and has made it a "claim or die" threat.  And now he's calling me an unfun poopyhead (basically) for not following his orders.

[Voltaire]

If you're town and get lynched for this, I will never sign up for a game with you in it, ever again. This is not meant to be a threat, just an explanation of how I feel about this.

This is also too much.

[ashersky]

There is no mod-confirmed, set-up reason to believe WW is town.

When people say WW is an IC, there is an implied (at least for me) asterisk after the statement. He's not a true IC. We all know that. Typing it out every single time would be maddening.

Is typing out "strong town-read" or "basically town" or the like a pain?  We can decide a new acronym, if you want.  OT for obvtown.  WL for won't lynch.  IC is a specific mafia role with specific connotations for balance and gameplay.

[ashersky]

If a group of people decide collective to murder someone, it isn't the victim's fault.  (That's what the lynch represents, you know.)

This is silly and inflammatory and you know it.

It's one or the other, but I don't think it's both.

[Teproc]

ash : There will come a point when you're at L-1 with intent to hammer. At that point, you make the choice. You can blame other people all you want, but that's how it works.

Blaming the victim is in fact very appropriate in mafia games. People who get mislynched are at least 50% responsible for it (ie more than any one townie on their wagon).

You're using real world rethoric but this is a game, it doesn't work the same way.

[Voltaire]

I've tried to move on, but Teproc (currently, you previously) continues to push me and has made it a "claim or die" threat.  And now he's calling me an unfun poopyhead (basically) for not following his orders.

"Claim or die", at least for me, is my entirely within-game decision on the best way to proceed given the information you've provided.

[ashersky]

It will take a majority of town deciding that they do not believe me.  If they don't believe me, that's on them, not on me.  I told the truth, I explained my motives, there's nothing left for me to do that doesn't go against my core values.

Your core values of going to your grave a cop who didn't share his result?

My core belief that a town PR (not a lying scum fake PR) has the absolutely right to use his/her role in the way they believe benefits town the most.  (Yes, there are exceptions where we can, collectively, decide that directing a PR's shot makes more sense than allowing that role to decide, but even then, it's a true discussion.)

[Teproc]

Yes, calling WW an IC is hyperbolic, you'll notice most of us have been saying "pseudo-IC" or "IC-ish".

[Voltaire]

Is typing out "strong town-read" or "basically town" or the like a pain?  We can decide a new acronym, if you want.  OT for obvtown.  WL for won't lynch.  IC is a specific mafia role with specific connotations for balance and gameplay.

Then I sympathize that we are, technically, abusing the term. The mod-thingy + WW's play yesterday = WW is obv!town for me.

[Teproc]

I've tried to move on, but Teproc (currently, you previously) continues to push me and has made it a "claim or die" threat.  And now he's calling me an unfun poopyhead (basically) for not following his orders.

"Claim or die", at least for me, is my entirely within-game decision on the best way to proceed given the information you've provided.

It is for me as well. The other stuff I'm talking about is just becauseI fear that town!ash thinks too much of himself to just give in to peer pressure.

I understand you don't want to do it, and that's why you're making us go through this. But you will claim, and if you don't you're not playing the game rationally.

[Voltaire]

My core belief that a town PR (not a lying scum fake PR) has the absolutely right to use his/her role in the way they believe benefits town the most.  (Yes, there are exceptions where we can, collectively, decide that directing a PR's shot makes more sense than allowing that role to decide, but even then, it's a true discussion.)

If that's what you're doing, if you are indeed lynched and don't share your result, and flip town, then I respect that. But I will not understand it. Because if it gives you lots of information, it won't give me any, and you'll be dead and I'll be alive and it won't have helped me.

[Robz888]

GUYS! This is like the most town!ash thing to do, ever. Yes, he's being ridiculous, and yes he should divulge when Volt damn well tells him to divulge. I absolutely, absolutely, disagree with him, and yet I fully believe him to be town--and yes, I believe he would absolutely allow himself to be lynched rather than compromise on something like this.

If you're voting for ash right now, you are making an emotional decision to punish him for being obstinate and difficult and wrong. But you're not making the intelligent decision. So please don't.

[Voltaire]

You think the odds that scum!ash wants to make sure he has the perfect target are that low?

[Teproc]

ash is perfectly able to do this as scum.

[Robz888]

You think the odds that scum!ash wants to make sure he has the perfect target are that low?

Yes.

[Witherweaver]

Eh, he'd very very much do this as town, which means he'd very very much do this as scum.

This entire conversation is pretty null.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, are we to assume that your target has not yet claimed, then?

[Robz888]

Look I fully believe we would lynch him for this, and I fully believe scum!ash knows this. I also fully believe town!ash would be willing to die/lose for his (wrong, in this case) principles.

[Robz888]

I think he's way more likely to do this as town.

[Voltaire]

Ash, are we to assume that your target has not yet claimed, then?

Yes. He said he would claim after his target. Well, some time after his target...so the goalpost could move again.

[Voltaire]

Look I fully believe we would lynch him for this, and I fully believe scum!ash knows this. I also fully believe town!ash would be willing to die/lose for his (wrong, in this case) principles.

I don't. He's threatened super-crazy stuff before, never actually done it (as town). Right?

[Teproc]

I think he's way more likely to do this as town.

Don't you think scum!ash knows you'll think this ? That I'll think this ? That everyone will. Scum!ash would do this because he believes we'll chicken out. Let's not.

[silverspawn]

well, if it's objectively right for town to claim in this situation, I don't think we should do exceptions. Even if it's better for this game, which I don't think it is, it would mean giving him exclusive advantages that no other player gets. Any player should try to do what's best for his alignment, and if it's best for town that ash claims, we should make him claim, even if town!ash would rather be lynched than doing it.

[silverspawn]

also, I really think ash expected robz to come and defend him. I almost expected it, and I've only seen their interactions in one game.

[Voltaire]

also, I really think ash expected robz to come and defend him. I almost expected it, and I've only seen their interactions in one game.

yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup

[Voltaire]

Let's talk about that result of yours, though, silver. Innocent or Realm-Aligned?

[silverspawn]

the pm said realm-aligned. I was assuming that's the same thing.

[Teproc]

Let's talk about that result of yours, though, silver. Innocent or Realm-Aligned?

Why did you go and make that a leading question ?

[Voltaire]

Let's talk about that result of yours, though, silver. Innocent or Realm-Aligned?

Why did you go and make that a leading question ?

Because ash already said it. Pretending silver didn't notice is stupid at this point.

[Voltaire]

And why did you target XP?

[silverspawn]

i did notice. but is asking for role specific syntax even legal? I was not thinking about that at all.

it seems to be a bit like the hider - assign letters to players - connect them with flavorname trick.

[Voltaire]

...what?

[silverspawn]

And why did you target XP?

because he was my strongest scum read. obviously, i did push his case day1. and having confirmed scum is more valuable than confirmed town

[silverspawn]

...what?

what I mean is, your question doesn't have anything to do with the mechanics of the game, it's just a way of formulating a result. and trying to catch scum in that way feels a bit like cheating to me.

[Witherweaver]

XP as a target is very believable.

I'm willing to move along with the claiming.

[Voltaire]

I say we continue the massclaim. My vote remains on ashersky. If he doesn't claim when we're done, he's obv!scum. If he does, he's got a billion additional scum points, even if he's not the lynch today.

That would make IG up.

PPE: I see WW agrees.

[Teproc]

I disagree with continuing the claim.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am Jon Snow, the Vanilla Man of the Night's Watch.  Though maybe I'm a vanilla Lord now that I'm in a house? I know nothing of the flavor, so don't know how that would work.

Had this in an open window on my phone.

[Voltaire]

This is where we are:

ashersky (finishes his claim when he sees fit)

Robz888
XerxesPraelor
Teproc
Voltaire
Witherweaver

Robz is up.

[silverspawn]

I disagree with continuing the claim.

for what it's worth, I do too.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I disagree with continuing the claim.

Sry. I missed you that time.

[Voltaire]

I disagree with continuing the claim.

for what it's worth, I do too.

Noted. We're continuing anyway.

[Teproc]

I disagree with continuing the claim.

for what it's worth, I do too.

Noted. We're continuing anyway.

You can continue until you get to me. I'm not claiming anything before ash claims his target.

[Hydrad]

I have this sinking feeling that teproc is ashers target... I hope I'm wrong though

[ashersky]

I have this sinking feeling that teproc is ashers target... I hope I'm wrong though

Well, him fearing that I have a scum result on him would make a lot of sense, given his reactions so far.

[Teproc]

I have this sinking feeling that teproc is ashers target... I hope I'm wrong though

Well, him fearing that I have a scum result on him would make a lot of sense, given his reactions so far.

Whatever. Go reread day 1 and explain to me how I'm scum.

[ashersky]

I have this sinking feeling that teproc is ashers target... I hope I'm wrong though

Well, him fearing that I have a scum result on him would make a lot of sense, given his reactions so far.

Whatever. Go reread day 1 and explain to me how I'm scum.

I don't have to.  Scum results from mods are damning enough.

[Teproc]

I have this sinking feeling that teproc is ashers target... I hope I'm wrong though

Well, him fearing that I have a scum result on him would make a lot of sense, given his reactions so far.

Whatever. Go reread day 1 and explain to me how I'm scum.

I don't have to.  Scum results from mods are damning enough.

I'm still angry at you, but that made me laugh.

[Robz888]

I am Jorah Mormont, a VT.

[Voltaire]

This is where we are:

ashersky (finishes his claim when he sees fit)

XerxesPraelor
Teproc
Voltaire
Witherweaver

XP is up.

[silverspawn]

and afk.

[XerxesPraelor]

I am Daenerys Stormborn, the Mother of Dragons.

I may not switch houses, and I become the Hand of the King automatically if I'm still alive while Targayen gets in charge. There may be additional things.

[Hydrad]

oh that makes me think XP is towny.

[Voltaire]

Any traditional mafia role to claim, XP?

[Voltaire]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

[ashersky]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

[Teproc]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

I can't believe you're saying this with a straight face. "I might have, but now that you're asking I won't. Because I'm ash, and I don't get pushed around, I do things my own way because I know better than everyone else, and people have to jump through hoops to deal with me".

Nope.

vote : ashersky for emphasis.

[ashersky]

Nope.

Yep.

[ashersky]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

[Robz888]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

Ash, he's not bullying or threatening you. He's a semi-IC and you're not. That's why he gets to tell you what to do. Notice ow nobody else objected to being told what to do here?

If you're town, please don't go down this road, okay?

[Teproc]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

While I have an idea, I want you to commit. This is what claiming is. Can't go back on it. You haven't commited to much yet.

[Hydrad]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

I think I know. but I don't think I should make assumptions.

[Robz888]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

If it should be pretty clear, then why don't you just tell us?

[Teproc]

vote : Robz

What the hell is that ?

vote : ash

[Robz888]

I'm getting married! Have to be adult Link now.

[ashersky]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

Ash, he's not bullying or threatening you. He's a semi-IC and you're not. That's why he gets to tell you what to do. Notice ow nobody else objected to being told what to do here?

If you're town, please don't go down this road, okay?

I disagree that Teproc is a semi-IC.  First everyone is saying WW is an IC for the flavor name thing.  Now Teproc is a semi-IC for...what?

If folks go back and read D1, you'll see that I had a strong townread on Teproc.  But he's no IC.  Or semi-IC.

[Teproc]

I think he means Voltaire is a semi-IC.

[ashersky]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

Ash, he's not bullying or threatening you. He's a semi-IC and you're not. That's why he gets to tell you what to do. Notice ow nobody else objected to being told what to do here?

If you're town, please don't go down this road, okay?

Actually, you're talking about Voltaire.  Again, why's he a semi-IC?  For a great, pro-town D1?  Nope.  I'd do that as scum, you'd do that as scum, Voltaire would absolutely do that as scum.

[ashersky]

I think he means Voltaire is a semi-IC.

Yeah, just noticed that.

But why is he saying that?  Did I miss something somewhere?  A mod confirmation?  I saw his claim of having investigative role and result, but so do I.  SS claimed that, too.

[Hydrad]

I don't think of Volt as a IC. But I would say hes one of my strongest town reads right now.

[ashersky]

I really think XP's claim is dangerous to town, btw.  I think that means, if true, it's probably a town role.

[Voltaire]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

When you're ready to play the game again, let me know. I've never stopped.

[Voltaire]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

While I have an idea, I want you to commit. This is what claiming is. Can't go back on it. You haven't commited to much yet.

A+

[ashersky]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

When you're ready to play the game again, let me know. I've never stopped.

I'm playing, don't worry.

No one else has thoughts on XP's tie to his house?

[Voltaire]

Actually, you're talking about Voltaire.  Again, why's he a semi-IC?  For a great, pro-town D1?  Nope.  I'd do that as scum, you'd do that as scum, Voltaire would absolutely do that as scum.

For my scum game, see the recently-finished James Bond. I'm not this good as scum.

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

When you're ready to play the game again, let me know. I've never stopped.

I'm playing, don't worry.

No one else has thoughts on XP's tie to his house?

Yes. I'll share them when we're done claiming.

[Voltaire]

I think he means Voltaire is a semi-IC.

Yeah, just noticed that.

But why is he saying that?  Did I miss something somewhere?  A mod confirmation?  I saw his claim of having investigative role and result, but so do I.  SS claimed that, too.

I "drove" the PPS lynch (putting that in quotes because WW and I think XP? I'd have to re-check arguably did more to make the wagon truly happen) all day yesterday. Though I was by no means certain, I kept the wagon viable blah blah blah. This is how mafia works. Things happen, you get reads off them. IN ADDITION to my partial claim, I was a significant factor in lynching a mafia PR yesterday.

[ashersky]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

While I have an idea, I want you to commit. This is what claiming is. Can't go back on it. You haven't commited to much yet.

A+

Niether have any of you.  "I'm going to vote until you claim" is a pretty easy excuse for scum to use to drive a mislynch, don't you think?

You aren't committing to a real read, you aren't making cases.  You are using a simple excuse to vote for me that you feel you can't be held accountable for.

"Yeah, I helped drive the mislynch on ashersky...but really, it's his own fault, not mine.  He deserved it anyway, so don't blame me."

Just copy and paste that.

[Voltaire]

Any traditional mafia role to claim, XP?

XP, have you claimed to the rest of your House, at least? Trying to decide if it's okay for you to wait.

[Voltaire]

Niether have any of you.  "I'm going to vote until you claim" is a pretty easy excuse for scum to use to drive a mislynch, don't you think?

You aren't committing to a real read, you aren't making cases.  You are using a simple excuse to vote for me that you feel you can't be held accountable for.

"Yeah, I helped drive the mislynch on ashersky...but really, it's his own fault, not mine.  He deserved it anyway, so don't blame me."

Just copy and paste that.

You've implied you were ready to claim until my recent post. What game-based reason do you have to change your mind?

[ashersky]

Actually, you're talking about Voltaire.  Again, why's he a semi-IC?  For a great, pro-town D1?  Nope.  I'd do that as scum, you'd do that as scum, Voltaire would absolutely do that as scum.

For my scum game, see the recently-finished James Bond. I'm not this good as scum.

You forget we were a scum team together and won?  Or you are acting like you forgot but didn't really forget.

I "drove" the PPS lynch (putting that in quotes because WW and I think XP? I'd have to re-check arguably did more to make the wagon truly happen) all day yesterday. Though I was by no means certain, I kept the wagon viable blah blah blah. This is how mafia works. Things happen, you get reads off them. IN ADDITION to my partial claim, I was a significant factor in lynching a mafia PR yesterday.

I'm sure scum was also significant factor in lynching PPS, especially when it became apparent he was going down.




What I don't get is, I gave you a huge benefit of the doubt yesterday, and I think you did the same for me when I refused to go along with your house plan.  You're different today, and I'm not sure why.

[ashersky]

Niether have any of you.  "I'm going to vote until you claim" is a pretty easy excuse for scum to use to drive a mislynch, don't you think?

You aren't committing to a real read, you aren't making cases.  You are using a simple excuse to vote for me that you feel you can't be held accountable for.

"Yeah, I helped drive the mislynch on ashersky...but really, it's his own fault, not mine.  He deserved it anyway, so don't blame me."

Just copy and paste that.

You've implied you were ready to claim until my recent post. What game-based reason do you have to change your mind?

The change in your attitude, specifically.  I just mentioned it in my previous post.  You are acting differently today than yesterday.

[Voltaire]

What I don't get is, I gave you a huge benefit of the doubt yesterday, and I think you did the same for me when I refused to go along with your house plan.  You're different today, and I'm not sure why.

PPS flipped scum.

[Voltaire]

Niether have any of you.  "I'm going to vote until you claim" is a pretty easy excuse for scum to use to drive a mislynch, don't you think?

You aren't committing to a real read, you aren't making cases.  You are using a simple excuse to vote for me that you feel you can't be held accountable for.

"Yeah, I helped drive the mislynch on ashersky...but really, it's his own fault, not mine.  He deserved it anyway, so don't blame me."

Just copy and paste that.

You've implied you were ready to claim until my recent post. What game-based reason do you have to change your mind?

The change in your attitude, specifically.  I just mentioned it in my previous post.  You are acting differently today than yesterday.

45 minutes ago it was because I was "bullying" and "threatening" you by voting for you.

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

[ashersky]

You asked me what game-related reason I had for not claiming.

You bullying and threatening me isn't a "game-related reason" in my estimation.  That's a personal reason.

I mean, they're possibly related, given I'm talking about the difference in D2Voltaire from D1Voltaire.  You were being reasonable on D1; not on D2.

[Voltaire]

I disagree completely that I am behaving differently overall between these days.

I agree completely that I have a different read on you based on your behavior up until now.

Everyone, we're lynching ashersky.

[Voltaire]

And ash, you know exactly how to prevent this. Claim your N1 action.

This is not bullying or a threat. This is me believing that you are scum, and encouraging your lynch.

[ashersky]

And I will repeat:

Then lynch me.

[Witherweaver]

ash, we've reached a point where you claim or I vocally call for your lynch. You are a scum read of mine and I feel a town player would know to claim here.

You know me well enough to understand that I don't respond to bullying or threats.

You also know me well enough that you should have left this alone.  If I was ready to claim at any point before I read this post, I'm no longer ready to claim because of your post.

Ash, he's not bullying or threatening you. He's a semi-IC and you're not. That's why he gets to tell you what to do. Notice ow nobody else objected to being told what to do here?

If you're town, please don't go down this road, okay?

Actually, you're talking about Voltaire.  Again, why's he a semi-IC?  For a great, pro-town D1?  Nope.  I'd do that as scum, you'd do that as scum, Voltaire would absolutely do that as scum.

Volt is obviously not scum. If he was, he would be lynched by now.

[silverspawn]

I think, though I am not sure, that ash is still expecting to get away with claiming the rest last. And he might just do it.

[Witherweaver]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

[Voltaire]

And I will repeat:

Then lynch me.

Already votin' for you.

[ashersky]

Volt is obviously not scum. If he was, he would be lynched by now.

What?  Why?

[Voltaire]

I think, though I am not sure, that ash is still expecting to get away with claiming the rest last. And he might just do it.

We're at Teproc, so no, he's not.

[ashersky]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

[Robz888]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

What happened to the 100% confidence that pacovf was scum?

[Witherweaver]

Volt is obviously not scum. If he was, he would be lynched by now.

What?  Why?

Okay, fine. sometimes he gets lynched Day 2.

[Witherweaver]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

I'm currently town on XP

[Robz888]

I also lean heavy town on XP.

[silverspawn]

I think, though I am not sure, that ash is still expecting to get away with claiming the rest last. And he might just do it.

We're at Teproc, so no, he's not.

oh. right. I completely forgot about Teproc.

I also have to say that I'm not convinced this is scum!ash. To be perfectly honest, I have no idea. I can't read ash. At all. Even if he's going to announce that I'm 100% scum or something. I just don't understand the way he's playing, I'm not sure if it's genius or awful or just random/crazy. I think it's probably genius solely based on his winrate, but even so, I can't read him.

That said, I will keep my vote on him if he doesn't claim. as a null-read, he isn't an awful lynch, and one bad lynch won't kill us at this point. Also, and more importantly, if he is a cop, he absolutely should claim before being mislynched. If he is cop and we mislynch him because he refuses to claim, then we take a blow because of bad play from a town player. that happens.

PPE 4

[Voltaire]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

XP said there "might be more" to his role. Has he revealed the "more" in your QT?

[Voltaire]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

What happened to the 100% confidence that pacovf was scum?

A+

[Voltaire]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

I'm currently town on XP

Scum on Robz then? Yesterday you thought there was scum in your house.

[ashersky]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

What happened to the 100% confidence that pacovf was scum?

A+

Absolutely still convinced.  Nothing's changed there, except pacovf has a post in the VLA thread which I always, always, always accept as genuine, so I haven't gone after him.

Why do you ask?

Why is it rated so highly as a question?

[Voltaire]

So you're saying the scum team is pacof/silver/PPS/pooooooooooooooooossibly a fourth member. Have you re-read to see if that checks out?

[Witherweaver]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

I'm currently town on XP

Scum on Robz then? Yesterday you thought there was scum in your house.

No, I said if I die, that would indicate there is scum in my house.

[Witherweaver]

About the house restriction, I can confirm XP revealed this in the QT.

Good to know.  How convinced are we on his towniness.

He's a fairly strong town read for me, given SS's fake result on him.

What happened to the 100% confidence that pacovf was scum?

A+

Absolutely still convinced.  Nothing's changed there, except pacovf has a post in the VLA thread which I always, always, always accept as genuine, so I haven't gone after him.

Why do you ask?

Why is it rated so highly as a question?

Why wouldn't you realize this question is important?

[Voltaire]

riiiiiiiiiiiiight sorry

[Witherweaver]

Also, it's clear to me no one has actually read my posts, given it should be pretty clear who I copped anyway.

While I have an idea, I want you to commit. This is what claiming is. Can't go back on it. You haven't commited to much yet.

A+

Niether have any of you.  "I'm going to vote until you claim" is a pretty easy excuse for scum to use to drive a mislynch, don't you think?

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

[Voltaire]

riiiiiiiiiiiiight sorry

this is to ww about robz

[silverspawn]

riiiiiiiiiiiiight sorry

I'm pretty sure if you wanted to increase the timely length of another letter, you wouldn't have posted quite so many copies of it.

[ashersky]

So you're saying the scum team is pacof/silver/PPS/pooooooooooooooooossibly a fourth member. Have you re-read to see if that checks out?

Well, I'm still extremely confident in my read of pacovf.  I'd lynch him immediately if he wasn't VLA.
I'm absolutely convinced that Silver's claim is a lie.  I'd lynch him immiedately if things were set for the night.
I'm not aware of the mafia team since, so sure, a fourth member is possible.

I have not done specific re-reads yet.  Have you?

[ashersky]

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

But if I get mislynched, and scum are on the wagon, they get a free ride.  They don't have to answer for anything.  That's my point.

[ashersky]

Why wouldn't you realize this question is important?

It's a perfectly fine question.  Cromulent, even.

A+, though?  That means it's the best of any possible question ever to be asked (given A+ is the top mark you can earn).  That's weighty stuff.

[Witherweaver]

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

But if I get mislynched, and scum are on the wagon, they get a free ride.  They don't have to answer for anything.  That's my point.

But you can easily stop this lynch from happening.

[silverspawn]

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

But if I get mislynched, and scum are on the wagon, they get a free ride.  They don't have to answer for anything.  That's my point.

this might be true, but you don't get a free pass because of it. Lynching you is akin to lynching lurkers. I'd be fine with doing Egork, Robz or you.

Besides, if you're right, you have already discovered most of "our" team anyway, possibly all.

[Witherweaver]

So you're saying the scum team is pacof/silver/PPS/pooooooooooooooooossibly a fourth member. Have you re-read to see if that checks out?

Well, I'm still extremely confident in my read of pacovf.  I'd lynch him immediately if he wasn't VLA.
I'm absolutely convinced that Silver's claim is a lie.  I'd lynch him immiedately if things were set for the night.
I'm not aware of the mafia team since, so sure, a fourth member is possible.

I have not done specific re-reads yet.  Have you?

Pacovf's interactions regarding PPS didn't affect your read on him in any way?

[Voltaire]

So you're saying the scum team is pacof/silver/PPS/pooooooooooooooooossibly a fourth member. Have you re-read to see if that checks out?

Well, I'm still extremely confident in my read of pacovf.  I'd lynch him immediately if he wasn't VLA.
I'm absolutely convinced that Silver's claim is a lie.  I'd lynch him immiedately if things were set for the night.
I'm not aware of the mafia team since, so sure, a fourth member is possible.

I have not done specific re-reads yet.  Have you?

You avoided my question. Have you analyzed your team for interactions?

Of course I've done some re-reads. We lynched scum D1 and I'm a PR.

[Witherweaver]

So you're saying the scum team is pacof/silver/PPS/pooooooooooooooooossibly a fourth member. Have you re-read to see if that checks out?

Well, I'm still extremely confident in my read of pacovf.  I'd lynch him immediately if he wasn't VLA.
I'm absolutely convinced that Silver's claim is a lie.  I'd lynch him immiedately if things were set for the night.
I'm not aware of the mafia team since, so sure, a fourth member is possible.

I have not done specific re-reads yet.  Have you?

This also, by the way, implies that either you copped Pacovf or Silver, or you got a Realm-Aligned result.  I don't think you copped Silver.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry. I must have completely missed Volt soft-claiming a PR. Is there a relevant post someone could point me to?

[Witherweaver]

Sorry. I must have completely missed Volt soft-claiming a PR. Is there a relevant post someone could point me to?

I hard claimed, in bold, that he had an investigative role.  It's what convinced us to go ahead and do the mass claim.

[Voltaire]

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

But if I get mislynched

Let me stop you right there. This is where you should step in.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I could keep being coy, or I could just say it, since I've always known I was just going to say it.

I am an investigative role with a result from N1.

So, let's take it from here.

Aha. Found it. Don't know how I missed it.
That + silver + ash would seem like a lot of similar roles. . .

[silverspawn]

I could keep being coy, or I could just say it, since I've always known I was just going to say it.

I am an investigative role with a result from N1.

So, let's take it from here.

Aha. Found it. Don't know how I missed it.
That + silver + ash would seem like a lot of similar roles. . .

yea I was of course thinking that too. it's a closed setup, so it's possible, but 3 cops would be weird.

[ashersky]

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

But if I get mislynched, and scum are on the wagon, they get a free ride.  They don't have to answer for anything.  That's my point.

But you can easily stop this lynch from happening.

Not at all, because you're in entire control over whether you get mislynched (or lynched) and the scum have nothing to do with it.

But if I get mislynched

Let me stop you right there. This is where you should step in.

Possible.  But maybe it's possible that mislynching me helps all of you realize that I haven't been lying all game and you'll go back and actually read my posts instead of ignoring them, and thereby possibly helping us win.

As of now, I get the sinking feeling we are snatching a town win from the jaws of victory.

[ashersky]

I could keep being coy, or I could just say it, since I've always known I was just going to say it.

I am an investigative role with a result from N1.

So, let's take it from here.

Aha. Found it. Don't know how I missed it.
That + silver + ash would seem like a lot of similar roles. . .

yea I was of course thinking that too. it's a closed setup, so it's possible, but 3 cops would be weird.

Investigative Role could be a lot of things.  I'm not immediately jumping on Volt's claim as fake.

1-Shot Cop and Full Cop in a closed setup just makes very little sense.

[silverspawn]

As of now, I get the sinking feeling we are snatching a town win from the jaws of victory.

"..."

[ashersky]

Pacovf's interactions regarding PPS didn't affect your read on him in any way?

Not at all.

[ashersky]

You avoided my question. Have you analyzed your team for interactions?

Of course I've done some re-reads. We lynched scum D1 and I'm a PR.

As town, I don't know who else is on "my team."  So no, I haven't analyzed it.

As for re-reads, when we get to the "make cases" stage, I probably will.  This is my only game, so I'm fairly confident in my recall ability.

[ashersky]

This also, by the way, implies that either you copped Pacovf or Silver, or you got a Realm-Aligned result.  I don't think you copped Silver.

It could imply that, yes.

Implying is also a funny word that is a conglomeration of "imp" and "lying," which is something I think makes sense, when you think about imps in the fantasy genre.

[silverspawn]

1-Shot Cop and Full Cop in a closed setup just makes very little sense

man, I'm not even sure I buy that you're a cop. Even if you're town, I totally see you claiming cop to get your targets lynched. You even said day 1 "what if I claimed day cop?" so it doesn't seem far fetched to just fakeclaim daycop. say you're right, and P is scum. If we lynch him and he flips, noone is going to suspect you, even if you come clean with your fake claim.

[silverspawn]

*fakeclaim normal cop

[Robz888]

Ash, as a reminder, you said that some people have probably already figured out what you're action was. So why not just tell us all?

[Voltaire]

Possible.  But maybe it's possible that mislynching me helps all of you realize that I haven't been lying all game and you'll go back and actually read my posts instead of ignoring them, and thereby possibly helping us win.

As of now, I get the sinking feeling we are snatching a town win from the jaws of victory.

ash, I said this before and I'll say it again - if you're the cop, and you go to your grave with a result you don't share, I will learn NOTHING because of all the WIFOM around you and if scum joined.

If only there were a way to avoid WIFOM, like mod-generated investigative results on players...hmm...

[ashersky]

1-Shot Cop and Full Cop in a closed setup just makes very little sense

man, I'm not even sure I buy that you're a cop. Even if you're town, I totally see you claiming cop to get your targets lynched. You even said day 1 "what if I claimed day cop?" so it doesn't seem far fetched to just fakeclaim daycop. say you're right, and P is scum. If we lynch him and he flips, noone is going to suspect you, even if you come clean with your fake claim.

That'd be pretty bold, even for me.

[Voltaire]

As of now, I get the sinking feeling we are snatching a town win from the jaws of victory.

"..."

A-

[ashersky]

If only there were a way to avoid WIFOM, like mod-generated investigative results on players...hmm...

You mean like the one you claim to have gotten, but have also refused to claim?

You have been deriding me all day for not claiming fully, and yet you did the original half-claim.

[Voltaire]

You avoided my question. Have you analyzed your team for interactions?

Of course I've done some re-reads. We lynched scum D1 and I'm a PR.

As town, I don't know who else is on "my team."  So no, I haven't analyzed it.

As for re-reads, when we get to the "make cases" stage, I probably will.  This is my only game, so I'm fairly confident in my recall ability.

I mean the scum team you claim you are 100% confident on (or are giving the appearance of 100% confidence)

[ashersky]

ash, I said this before and I'll say it again - if you're the cop, and you go to your grave with a result you don't share...

Well, depends how long twilight is, doesn't it?

[Voltaire]

If only there were a way to avoid WIFOM, like mod-generated investigative results on players...hmm...

You mean like the one you claim to have gotten, but have also refused to claim?

You have been deriding me all day for not claiming fully, and yet you did the original half-claim.

WHAT A ZINGER OH WAIT

ash, if you're town, I get that there's value in waiting. But you need to give us something (your result) for us to give you something (belief of your claim).*

*I know this is ironic what with me half-claimed myself, but I gave my initial claim to get the massclaim rolling, and now WW and Teproc, my two biggest town reads, have agreed to put you at the top of the massclaim and me at the bottom so, what can you do.

[ashersky]

You avoided my question. Have you analyzed your team for interactions?

Of course I've done some re-reads. We lynched scum D1 and I'm a PR.

As town, I don't know who else is on "my team."  So no, I haven't analyzed it.

As for re-reads, when we get to the "make cases" stage, I probably will.  This is my only game, so I'm fairly confident in my recall ability.

I mean the scum team you claim you are 100% confident on (or are giving the appearance of 100% confidence)

Oh, that makes more sense.

No, I have not yet re-read them together.  The silver thing just happened, you know, and I've been sure of pacovf since Night 0, so no need to re-read there.

[ashersky]

If only there were a way to avoid WIFOM, like mod-generated investigative results on players...hmm...

You mean like the one you claim to have gotten, but have also refused to claim?

You have been deriding me all day for not claiming fully, and yet you did the original half-claim.

WHAT A ZINGER OH WAIT

ash, if you're town, I get that there's value in waiting. But you need to give us something (your result) for us to give you something (belief of your claim).*

*I know this is ironic what with me half-claimed myself, but I gave my initial claim to get the massclaim rolling, and now WW and Teproc, my two biggest town reads, have agreed to put you at the top of the massclaim and me at the bottom so, what can you do.

It's not a zinger, I know you you admitted this before.

But there is something you could do.  Since you already broke ranks, just finish your claim.

I have an idea of why you don't want to though, and I'm NOT pushing you.  See how we're treating this differently?

[silverspawn]

I have an idea of why you don't want to though, and I'm NOT pushing you.  See how we're treating this differently?

...

[Voltaire]

Volt is going on radio silence until ash claims or we lynch him, whichever comes first.

[Witherweaver]

I'd rather Volt claim after all the other claims, including Ash's.  I'm fairly confident in Volt being town , and he didn't break rank.  He partially claimed in order to get the mass claim to go through.

[silverspawn]

1-Shot Cop and Full Cop in a closed setup just makes very little sense

man, I'm not even sure I buy that you're a cop. Even if you're town, I totally see you claiming cop to get your targets lynched. You even said day 1 "what if I claimed day cop?" so it doesn't seem far fetched to just fakeclaim daycop. say you're right, and P is scum. If we lynch him and he flips, noone is going to suspect you, even if you come clean with your fake claim.

That'd be pretty bold, even for me.

I actually want to come back to this. If I happened to be 80% sure (which is less than what you claimed) that Player X is scum, and if claiming cop is believable, I would do it. It's not even a hard choice. We get him lynched, and I admit that I was fake claiming. If it worked, noone is going to have a problem with that. If it didn't work, the worst case is that we lynch 2 towns. I'd trade an 80% chance for a scum lynch for a 20% chance of 2 mislynches any day, any time. Especially in the position we are in.

You said, and I quote, you are so confident in the P lynch that you are okay if we lynch you first and then lynch him. This is in every single way a worse scenario than the one I described above. There is no good reason not to fake claim cop.

[silverspawn]

that doesn't mean I think you did it. I don't think that (even though it's absolutely possible). But, at this point, there is nothing you can say that can convince me that anyone is scum. I'm not even sure you believe that P is scum, in fact I think it's about a 30% chance that you just made it up and don't suspect him at all.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't think Ash will ever give in to you guys.

[Hydrad]

I guess I'll say that I'm not going to lynch ash. But at the same time I would rather him reveal what hes doing now. I still think this is town ash.

[silverspawn]

I guess I'll say that I'm not going to lynch ash. But at the same time I would rather him reveal what hes doing now.

that's very helpful.

[Hydrad]

I guess I'll say that I'm not going to lynch ash. But at the same time I would rather him reveal what hes doing now.

that's very helpful.

I'm hoping that even if we stalemate for a bit that hopefully someone will give in. If this is town asher I think he might be willing to get lynched but only becuase he doesn't like how everyones acting. If everyone calms down a bit I think he will be more willing to reveal. I have no proof of this but thats the feeling I'm getting.

[ashersky]

at the same time I would rather him reveal what hes doing now.

I'm interested in other people revealing what I'm doing now.

[Hydrad]

at the same time I would rather him reveal what hes doing now.

I'm interested in other people revealing what I'm doing now.

I think your being difficult just to get reactions. Which is good for town but still kinda annoying to play with.

[silverspawn]

I think your being difficult just to get reactions. Which is good for town but still kinda annoying to play with.

that's what I think too. But that's a theory, it could also be something entirely different.

[silverspawn]

If that's what it is, this would be a good time to drop the act and reveal your newly founded town read on me. which you should have based on my reactions. There is really a limit on how much I could pretend as scum.

[XerxesPraelor]

We should lynch ash for LAL reasons. All he's doing is stalling in the hope of getting a slight benefit. And we can't let him be able to get away with this sort of refusal all the time. This is only slightly scummy due to ash's meta, but that's a bad meta that should be able to change and makes reading him as scum basically impossible.

vote: Ashersky

[ashersky]

We should lynch ash for LAL reasons. All he's doing is stalling in the hope of getting a slight benefit. And we can't let him be able to get away with this sort of refusal all the time. This is only slightly scummy due to ash's meta, but that's a bad meta that should be able to change and makes reading him as scum basically impossible.

vote: Ashersky

I'm not lurking.  Why would LAL apply?

[Hydrad]

even though its frusterating. I'm super against lynching someone just because I don't like there meta. I'm still trying to win this game and don't think an asher lynch is going to win it.

[XerxesPraelor]

Votecount please?

Also, no normal Mafia role for me.

[Voltaire]

even though its frusterating. I'm super against lynching someone just because I don't like there meta. I'm still trying to win this game and don't think an asher lynch is going to win it.

(posting in reply to this because I have no self control)

That's not why I want ash lynched.

[XerxesPraelor]

Lynch all Liars - you're being really anti-town.

[Witherweaver]

We should lynch ash for LAL reasons. All he's doing is stalling in the hope of getting a slight benefit. And we can't let him be able to get away with this sort of refusal all the time. This is only slightly scummy due to ash's meta, but that's a bad meta that should be able to change and makes reading him as scum basically impossible.

vote: Ashersky

I'm not lurking.  Why would LAL apply?

*complains that people don't actually read his posts*
*responds to someone without reading their post*

[Hydrad]

even though its frusterating. I'm super against lynching someone just because I don't like there meta. I'm still trying to win this game and don't think an asher lynch is going to win it.

(posting in reply to this because I have no self control)

That's not why I want ash lynched.

Ya that one was basically just targetted to XP. I understand why your voting.

[silverspawn]

even though its frusterating. I'm super against lynching someone just because I don't like there meta. I'm still trying to win this game and don't think an asher lynch is going to win it.

one of the only things of which I'm almost certain concerning ash is that he's completely capable of doing this as scum. If we ignore the fact that he claimed full cop, we're looking at a random lynch, worst case. It's similar to lynching a lurker, which I think is what XP was implying.

PPE 5

[ashersky]

We should lynch ash for LAL reasons. All he's doing is stalling in the hope of getting a slight benefit. And we can't let him be able to get away with this sort of refusal all the time. This is only slightly scummy due to ash's meta, but that's a bad meta that should be able to change and makes reading him as scum basically impossible.

vote: Ashersky

I'm not lurking.  Why would LAL apply?

*complains that people don't actually read his posts*
*responds to someone without reading their post*

I read it.  LAL is Lynch All Lurkers.  That's a defined acronym on this site.  LALL is Lynch All Lurkers, Literally.

[ashersky]

Lynch all Liars - you're being really anti-town.

I'm being pro-town, whether you know it (or agree with it) or not.

Ask anyone, anyone here -- I am easily the most calculating player on f.ds.  Every single post, action, etc. I do in a mafia game is done solely for the benefit of myself (that is, reaching my win condition).  That doesn't change from alignment to alignment.

If you think I'm town, then you have to know that I believe I'm doing something that's pro-town.
If you think I'm scum, then you have to know that I believe I'm doing something that's pro-scum.

The one thing everyone should know is impossible is that if I'm town, I'd be doing something I believe is anti-town.

[silverspawn]

Lynch all Liars - you're being really anti-town.

I'm being pro-town, whether you know it (or agree with it) or not.

Ask anyone, anyone here -- I am easily the most calculating player on f.ds.  Every single post, action, etc. I do in a mafia game is done solely for the benefit of myself (that is, reaching my win condition).  That doesn't change from alignment to alignment.

If you think I'm town, then you have to know that I believe I'm doing something that's pro-town.
If you think I'm scum, then you have to know that I believe I'm doing something that's pro-scum.

The one thing everyone should know is impossible is that if I'm town, I'd be doing something I believe is anti-town.

If you are a cop, and you let us lynch you, that's anti town. Maybe it benefits you in future games, but it's antitown for this game.

Which is why we should just vote for him and get him on L-1.

[EgorK]

Lynch all Liars - you're being really anti-town.

I'm being pro-town, whether you know it (or agree with it) or not.

Ask anyone, anyone here -- I am easily the most calculating player on f.ds.  Every single post, action, etc. I do in a mafia game is done solely for the benefit of myself (that is, reaching my win condition).  That doesn't change from alignment to alignment.

If you think I'm town, then you have to know that I believe I'm doing something that's pro-town.
If you think I'm scum, then you have to know that I believe I'm doing something that's pro-scum.

The one thing everyone should know is impossible is that if I'm town, I'd be doing something I believe is anti-town.

You may be blinded by your own super boldness. What you are doing now is stalling the game, as everyone basically repeat same things

I am not ready yet to strip town of at least 65%ish full cop for the benefit of teaching ash lesson, so not voting

[faust]

Vote Count 2.2

Hydrad (2): Ichimaru Gin, Witherweaver
silverspawn (1): ashersky
ashersky (4): Teproc, silverspawn, Voltaire, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (4): pacovf, Hydrad, EgorK, Robz888

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[Teproc]

This is not about teaching asha lesson.

As ash just said, he would not do seomthing he believes to be anti-town. This is a bluff : if he is town and is threatened with a hammer, he will claim. If he doesn't, he is scum.

If he flips town after not claiming, he wasn't playing to his VC and we've basically lynched scum anyway.

[EgorK]

This is not about teaching asha lesson.

As ash just said, he would not do seomthing he believes to be anti-town. This is a bluff : if he is town and is threatened with a hammer, he will claim. If he doesn't, he is scum.

If he flips town after not claiming, he wasn't playing to his VC and we've basically lynched scum anyway.

Ok, let's do it then

Vote: ash

This is L-1 I believe

[Teproc]

It is.

No one vote, obviously. Now we need someone to state intent to hammer (and mean it).

Then ash you have a choice. If you're scum do whatever I don't care. If you're town :
- you can die for your principles and prove to everyone that you're full of it when you say you wouldn't do anti-town things.
- you can claim your freaking target

Let's be clear : letting yourself being mislynched as a cop is anti-town, 100%. You can say it's our fault, that you shouldn't be in this position, that we're mean bullies, whatever, but in the end you have a choice.

[ashersky]

Here's my offer.

From the post in which we get a serious intent to hammer, you all give me ~14 hours (I'm assuming this happens in the next 6-8 hours), given time zone considerations.  I say ~14 because I am guaranteed to be at a computer in 12 hours from this post.

During that 14-hour window, the game continues (sans claiming plan).  Discuss me, discuss houses, discuss scummy play from yesterday, whatever.  This game has produced 10 pages while I've slept.

I come back, see intent, see discussion.  I'd like the opportunity for a last, targeted re-read.  At that point, I'll be honest in whether I will claim or die, based on whatever I'm able to glean from the discussion that took place, etc.

I'll provide a final reads list either way.

One final condition: I'd like a draft plan in place for house actions tonight based on the assumption that I'm telling the truth.  The reason I said everyone goes Stark is that we'd have total control over all powers.  No house power but doctor.  No role powers that require outside targets, since I'm the only target and I can't die.  If I'm blocked (doubtful, given the JK death), we rearrange on D3.

All that is moot based on XP's claim.  So we need to know how to stack two houses in the safest way.

So, there's my offer.  I think it's decent.  It gets gameplay resuming, puts a known end to this whole argument, and ensures we know what's possibly happening on N2.

[Teproc]

I appreciate that ash, but I'd rather do all the planning after either :
a) you claim and we finish the massclaim
b) you don't claim and we decide to lynch you

[Voltaire]

Tiny problem ash: I'm also an Investigative Role, remember? If you were hoping your fake claim would save you, you have to account for the fact that I exist.

[Voltaire]

Also

I appreciate that ash, but I'd rather do all the planning after either :
a) you claim and we finish the massclaim
b) you don't claim and we decide to lynch you

[ashersky]

Tiny problem ash: I'm also an Investigative Role, remember? If you were hoping your fake claim would save you, you have to account for the fact that I exist.

I don't know what this means.  My claim is real and I don't need saving.

[Voltaire]

What I'm saying is, for a variety of reasons, I don't believe your claim. One of which is, I'm also someone we can play Follow the Cop with. Which decreases the risk in lynching you should you be telling the truth.

But I'd prefer it if you claim so I can decide if I believe you, because if town has you and me and the Stark power we've already won. (which is why I'm a bit suspicious)

[pacovf]

Skimming from a 'stolen' phone. Craziness. Please don't lynch ash while I am out. Cant people full claim in the QTs, then Ash claim, then share claims from QTs?

[Teproc]

Skimming from a 'stolen' phone. Craziness. Please don't lynch ash while I am out. Cant people full claim in the QTs, then Ash claim, then share claims from QTs?

While I think that's a good idea for me (because the other Starks have both already claimed so they can't use it if they're scum)...

Wait, actually, it's just WW and Voltaire after me ?

That works for me.

[Witherweaver]

Skimming from a 'stolen' phone. Craziness. Please don't lynch ash while I am out. Cant people full claim in the QTs, then Ash claim, then share claims from QTs?

That could work.  Ash?

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, just Teproc, Voltaire, me.

[Teproc]

This is actually perfect. I suggested it in my house QT for myself, but the fact that all the people who still have to claim are in different QTs makes this an awesome solution.

[Voltaire]

Ash, if you're good with that, I am.

unvote

[Teproc]

I claimed in my QT, because wether or not ash accepts that deal doesn't really change much.

Only downside is if scum has daychat, but oh well, I'll take that risk.

[Witherweaver]

Did you claim in your QT, Volt?

[Witherweaver]

I guess someone else from each QT should verify the claim was posted, for accountabilibuddity.

[Teproc]

I guess someone else from each QT should verify the claim was posted, for accountabilibuddity.

Anyone who says they claimed and didn't would be obvscum anyway, but sure.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Just woke up. Can confirm that Teproc has claimed in the Stark House qt.

[Voltaire]

Did you claim in your QT, Volt?

I just did.

[Witherweaver]

I guess someone else from each QT should verify the claim was posted, for accountabilibuddity.

Anyone who says they claimed and didn't would be obvscum anyway, but sure.

Yeah but if all the claims happened soon, including Ash, hypothetical scum in you and voltaire could post right after and hope no one notices time stamps, or whatever.  Unnecessarily careful, but whatever.

[Witherweaver]

I posted in my QT as well.

Ball's in your court, Ash!

[Teproc]

I know what you're saying WW, but it's now past midnight in Australia, I assume ash went to bed after posting, so it'll be a while before we get his claim.

[silverspawn]

Voltaire has claimed.

[ashersky]

Robz is realm-aligned.

[Teproc]

There we go.

Let's finish this massclaim (people from their QTs can give us WW and VOltaire's claims if they're not here).

I'm a Vanilla Lady.

[Voltaire]

I highly suspect ash is telling the truth, because...

I am a Tracker. I tracked ash last night and saw him target Robz.

[Voltaire]

ash, why did you want to wait to reveal that?

[Voltaire]

Also, in case it ever matters down the road, a reminder that I was the Hand of the King when I performed that action, meaning it was strongman.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Wow. This is like insanely awesome. I really trust Volt, which allays most of my fears that this is a scum conspiracy--so we basically have three more pseudo-IC's now.

[silverspawn]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

[Teproc]

This seems too good to be true.

But I don't see why Voltaire or ash would be lying here.

Of course it's possible ash has some scum role and did target Robz, but meh.

[ashersky]

ash, why did you want to wait to reveal that?

Interactions, reactions, et al.  I really wanted scum to squirm.

I figured scum was worried, or possibly would try to get the mislynch, or at least react in a way useful to scum hunting.

I wanted Robz to post a few more things BEFORE he became conf!town to see how others interacted with him.

I knew there was a slight risk that I'd actually be lynched, but that would have given everyone a lot to work with.  I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

[ashersky]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

[Voltaire]

Of course it's possible ash has some scum role and did target Robz, but meh.

That conspiracy, of course, is still possible. Ash knew I was an investigative role with a result, and he definitely fished for my role, guessing Tracker at one point. It wasn't terribly unlikely.

However, what is his scum PR? Roleblocker? Scum already lost a JK, would they really have both? Rolecop? Possible, actually. But that's about it, because he didn't do the kill.

ash, why did you want to be houseless yesterday? You could have investigated Robz (Targ) from Stark.

[Hydrad]

XP is in that house not silver. silver is in baratheon.

[Witherweaver]

I am a Vanilla Knight

So labeled because of the colour of my hair.

[silverspawn]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

what house thing?

and can you explain why I would claim doctor, if I could just go with VT and be completely fine?

[Voltaire]

If all those voting ash could unvote, that would be great.

[Witherweaver]

ash, why did you want to wait to reveal that?

Interactions, reactions, et al.  I really wanted scum to squirm.

I figured scum was worried, or possibly would try to get the mislynch, or at least react in a way useful to scum hunting.

I wanted Robz to post a few more things BEFORE he became conf!town to see how others interacted with him.

I knew there was a slight risk that I'd actually be lynched, but that would have given everyone a lot to work with.  I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

It was me, XP, Robz, and I said that conditional upon me dying.

[silverspawn]

If all those voting ash could unvote, that would be great.

if you think so

unvote

[Voltaire]

I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

/facepalm

Silver is in Baratheon. pacof is in Targ with Robz and WW.

[ashersky]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

what house thing?

and can you explain why I would claim doctor, if I could just go with VT and be completely fine?

You claimed 1-shot cop.

[Teproc]

If all those voting ash could unvote, that would be great.

Right, sorry. unvote

Initial thought : we should lynch Hydrad. Yes silverspawn's claim looks weird, but he's had a townie day 1.

[Ichimaru Gin]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

Personally, I find 3 investigative roles pretty unlikely. And at this point, silver's claim is by far the least convincing of the three to me. I still want to lynch Hydrad today though. And can easily see his light support of ash as vying for town points since he knew ash was town anyway.

PPE: a bunch

[Witherweaver]

I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

/facepalm

Silver is in Baratheon. pacof is in Targ with Robz and WW.

Again, it's still XP, me, and Robz.

[ashersky]

I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

/facepalm

Silver is in Baratheon. pacof is in Targ with Robz and WW.

Oh.  Supports my pacovf read, then!

[Teproc]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

what house thing?

and can you explain why I would claim doctor, if I could just go with VT and be completely fine?

You claimed 1-shot cop.

Did this really just happen ?

[Voltaire]

I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

/facepalm

Silver is in Baratheon. pacof is in Targ with Robz and WW.

Again, it's still XP, me, and Robz.

/facepalm

[Teproc]

I crumbed robz anyway.

Remember that "probably one scum in the house" thing about robz's house?  That house has WW, Robz, and silver, right?

And silver has the worst claim there.

/facepalm

Silver is in Baratheon. pacof is in Targ with Robz and WW.

Oh.  Supports my pacovf read, then!

Don't listen to him, pacovf is in Stark with me and Ichi...

[Voltaire]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

what house thing?

and can you explain why I would claim doctor, if I could just go with VT and be completely fine?

You claimed 1-shot cop.

Did this really just happen ?

Yes.

I have thoughts. I might post them.

[silverspawn]

You claimed 1-shot cop.

sigh. yes. cop. i switch words up sometimes, if you look through my posts, you will see that this happens quite regularly.

[Witherweaver]

ash, since you admit now that you didn't investigate me, care to explain why exactly I am so inevitably scum? any reason besides the fact that we now have 1,5 cops?

I just don't believe your claim.  That's all it takes sometimes.

Plus that house thing.

what house thing?

and can you explain why I would claim doctor, if I could just go with VT and be completely fine?

Yeah, uh... Vote: Silverspawn ?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Did silver just misremember his fakeclaim?

[Twistedarcher]

 Vote Count 2.3

Hydrad (1): Ichimaru Gin
silverspawn (2): ashersky, Witherweaver
ashersky (2): XerxesPraelor, EgorK

Not Voting (6): pacovf, Hydrad, Robz888, Voltaire, Silverspawn, Teproc

I've had to change 3 times with PPEs. Darn you all.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[ashersky]

Of course it's possible ash has some scum role and did target Robz, but meh.

That conspiracy, of course, is still possible. Ash knew I was an investigative role with a result, and he definitely fished for my role, guessing Tracker at one point. It wasn't terribly unlikely.

However, what is his scum PR? Roleblocker? Scum already lost a JK, would they really have both? Rolecop? Possible, actually. But that's about it, because he didn't do the kill.

ash, why did you want to be houseless yesterday? You could have investigated Robz (Targ) from Stark.

Being houseless meant I could investigate anyone.  Bring out of Stark meant I could be doctored.  Figured that was my best course of action.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: silverspawn

And this is moving incredibly fast. My condolences to TA.

[ashersky]

You claimed 1-shot cop.

sigh. yes. cop. i switch words up sometimes, if you look through my posts, you will see that this happens quite regularly.

I mean...no?  Maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe 1-shot doc instead of cop, given three letters, the o, etc.

Doctor is two syllables, etc.etc.

[silverspawn]

guys. i think fast. i read fast. i post fast. this stuff happens to me. you will find countless posts in the forum were I mess up with sentences in that way. 10 posts ago I said "we now have 1,5 cops".

[ashersky]

guys. i think fast. i read fast. i post fast. this stuff happens to me. you will find countless posts in the forum were I mess up with sentences in that way. 10 posts ago I said "we now have 1,5 cops".

Could have meant tracker is kind of half a cop.

But I will grant you did say that recently.

[Voltaire]

So we can do this for sure...and we can go deeper when we look at PPS.

silverspawn
pacovf
ashersky - I really hesitate to do this, but copping Robz D1 makes perfect sense, and he sure as heck performed an action on Robz.
Hydrad
Witherweaver - play + mod situation
Teproc - play
XerxesPraelor - silver's "result"
EgorK
Robz888 - ash's result (even if ash is scum, I don't think he targets his own partner with a PR, maybe jailkeeper? anyway not something to consider today)
Ichimaru Gin
Voltaire - make the case I'm scum. I dare you.

[silverspawn]

I'm pretty sure it has happened several times in this thread.

[Voltaire]

Being houseless meant I could investigate anyone.  Bring out of Stark meant I could be doctored.  Figured that was my best course of action.

Gotcha. Forgot the wrinkle in that last bit from your point of view yesterday.

[Witherweaver]

guys. i think fast. i read fast. i post fast. this stuff happens to me. you will find countless posts in the forum were I mess up with sentences in that way. 10 posts ago I said "we now have 1,5 cops".

1,5 made sense to me.  One cop, one one-shot cop that you counted as 1/2.  I was assuming the comma was a decimal point.

[Teproc]

I'm not sure abuot this.

Need to reread silverspawn for sure. We're not lynching anyone before having analized their interactions with PPS.

PPE : I agree with Voltaire's lynch pool.

[Teproc]

analyzed*

[Witherweaver]

Why not cop Pacovf, Ash?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'll obey Robz and not answer other people's questions, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one.

[Witherweaver]

I'll obey Robz and not answer other people's questions, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one.

I probably do too, but I wanted to check.

[Teproc]

I'll obey Robz and not answer other people's questions, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one.

I actually typed it up and figured Robz would yell at me.

[silverspawn]

1,5 made sense to me.  One cop, one one-shot cop that you counted as 1/2.  I was assuming the comma was a decimal point.

yes, i meant 1 and 1/2.

I can understand voting for me because  I said innocent instead of realm aligned. but voting for me because i messed up cop and doctor is insane. if you want, I can give you a quick collection of posts where I messed up. that even happens to me in real life sometimes, I'm talking about something, thinking ahead, and refer to a completely wrong subject in my sentence witout realizing it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'll obey Robz and not answer other people's questions, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one.

I actually typed it up and figured Robz would yell at me.

Yeah but he's not as scary with his new avatar.

[Witherweaver]

1,5 made sense to me.  One cop, one one-shot cop that you counted as 1/2.  I was assuming the comma was a decimal point.

yes, i meant 1 and 1/2.

I can understand voting for me because  I said innocent instead of realm aligned. but voting for me because i messed up cop and doctor is insane. if you want, I can give you a quick collection of posts where I messed up. that even happens to me in real life sometimes, I'm talking about something, thinking ahead, and refer to a completely wrong subject in my sentence witout realizing it.

I don't buy it.

[ashersky]

I'm confident in my reads is the short answer.

Rule #1 of mafia is always cop Robz.

(Seriously though, dude was oddly absent on D1, which is robz town meta 101, which he has faked before; he was never anti-PPS; and I can never be sure about him.)

Also, once robz feels/knows he has semi-IC status, it usually ramps up his activity.  A motivated town Robz is huge.

[ashersky]

I'm interested in others' version of my answer.

[Voltaire]

Guys, here's the weird thing about silver saying Innocent instead of Realm-Aligned - Bond mafia was just finished up, where I fakeclaimed Cop (there was no actual Cop in the setup) and I reported an Innocent result.

I had a mild scum read on silver anyway after PPS flipped/his behavior (or lack thereof) in our QT, and obviously I did yesterday too, but there's just something preventing me from voting him.

Probably my hatred that a "scumslip" is baked into this case.

[Witherweaver]

Ash is making sense.. now I'm worried

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm interested in others' version of my answer.

My answer was that you were already incredibly sure of your read on Pacovf and it would be a waste to cop him when you could gain additional information by investigating someone else.

[ashersky]

Ash is making sense.. now I'm worried

An unfortunate byproduct of my play style.

[Teproc]

I'm interested in others' version of my answer.

Mine was "Why cop him when I already know he's scum ?"

[Voltaire]

I'm interested in others' version of my answer.

Basically yours.

Ash is making sense.. now I'm worried

same.

Ash, you consistently had PPS as a town read yesterday. Not saying that's bad. Town is wrong all the time (*cough*pacof*cough*). Yesterday though you didn't really explain your read. Can you now?

[Witherweaver]

I'm interested in others' version of my answer.

Mine was "Why cop him when I already know he's scum ?"

Kind of what I expected~

[silverspawn]

1,5 made sense to me.  One cop, one one-shot cop that you counted as 1/2.  I was assuming the comma was a decimal point.

yes, i meant 1 and 1/2.

I can understand voting for me because  I said innocent instead of realm aligned. but voting for me because i messed up cop and doctor is insane. if you want, I can give you a quick collection of posts where I messed up. that even happens to me in real life sometimes, I'm talking about something, thinking ahead, and refer to a completely wrong subject in my sentence witout realizing it.

I don't buy it.

well, 20 second searching and I found this post I made yesterday.

1-Shot Cop and Full Cop in a closed setup just makes very little sense

man, I'm not even sure I buy that you're a cop. Even if you're town, I totally see you claiming cop to get your targets lynched. You even said day 1 "what if I claimed day cop?" so it doesn't seem far fetched to just fakeclaim daycop. say you're right, and P is scum. If we lynch him and he flips, noone is going to suspect you, even if you come clean with your fake claim.

I wrote daycop in the highlighted part instead of normal cop or just cop. that's pretty much the same. need more?

[Witherweaver]

Uh, no, not at all.  Ash actually brought up claiming daycop early Day 1....

[silverspawn]

(or lack thereof) in our QT

I said, I don't see why QT's are good for town, there is scum in them, just as much as in the thread. I asked you, what do you think about QT's. you said, QT's are super pro scum. that's why I didn't post in the QT.

[Witherweaver]

And you even quoted it, and just used the word 8 words before.

[Voltaire]

silver, are you lying as town?

[silverspawn]

Uh, no, not at all.  Ash actually brought up claiming daycop early Day 1....

yes. that's what I wrote in my post. He brought up daycop, which is why it would be reasonable for him to fake normal cop in order to get his targets lynched. that was my point.

If you follow the link of the quote, you will see that i corrected myself instantly after posting it.

[Voltaire]

(or lack thereof) in our QT

I said, I don't see why QT's are good for town, there is scum in them, just as much as in the thread. I asked you, what do you think about QT's. you said, QT's are super pro scum. that's why I didn't post in the QT.

And I'm now beginning to think I was totally justified because my starting QT had two scum in it (PPS and you).

[Witherweaver]

daycop > cop

is much different than

doctor > 1-shot cop

[Ichimaru Gin]

Mmm. I don't think it's a good idea to lynch silver soley because of mistyping his role. But there's other stuff driving the wagon as well, so this shouldn't be a chance for the case on him to be framed as being based only on his "scumslip". Cause with all this theory talk going around, I can understand mistyping a role.

I still don't buy that we have 3 investigative PRs though.

PPE: 7 still feeling good on my vote.

[ashersky]

I'm interested in others' version of my answer.

Basically yours.

Ash is making sense.. now I'm worried

same.

Ash, you consistently had PPS as a town read yesterday. Not saying that's bad. Town is wrong all the time (*cough*pacof*cough*). Yesterday though you didn't really explain your read. Can you now?

That's a good point.  I was wrong on PPS, so was Robz.  I was able to confirm he was just wrong, not protecting (absent a godfather ability).

My town read was based on having twice in recent games been scum partners with PPS.  He and I have similarly intriguing (some might say frustrating) plat styles.  I thought his early giving up was more likely town PPS.  Others saw it as scum overreacting to less pressure than was actually there.

I thought scum!pps would try harder to affect the game after his death if he thought he was going to be the lynch.  He just wasn't leaving a mark.

I mean, I was wrong.  Has happened before, famously with you.

[Voltaire]

Strange question: Dany would be my pick to be King (Queen) when Targ is in charge. But that's XP's flavor.

Targ, do you have any idea who will be the NPC King if you gain the most members?

[silverspawn]

daycop > cop

is much different than

doctor > 1-shot cop

well, it looks like you are serious about this case. which is insane. the example I just quoted was a lighter slip than what I just did, i'll give you that.

I will look up a few other posts though.

[Teproc]

No one should vote anyone before rereading and looking at how they behaved towards PPS in particular*. We have a scum flip, we should use it.

*the ash thing was different

[Voltaire]

I still don't buy that we have 3 investigative PRs though.

Then who is lying? It's me or ash if you don't think it's silver by your thinking.

[ashersky]

silver, are you lying as town?

I had this same thought.

He could be a real doc...thought lying and saying he had a used up role could protect him, etc.

He's been arguing the virtues of lying as town all game.

I'm not buying it, though.

[Teproc]

Strange question: Dany would be my pick to be King (Queen) when Targ is in charge. But that's XP's flavor.

Targ, do you have any idea who will be the NPC King if you gain the most members?

That's an interesting question... This is the end of book/season 2 right ? Xaro Xhoan Daxos maybe ? Maybe she's the exception to the rule and gets to be both queen and hand of the king.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I still don't buy that we have 3 investigative PRs though.

Then who is lying? It's me or ash if you don't think it's silver by your thinking.

Oh, no, I think it's silver. That's why I said I still feel good about my vote on him.

I was just trying to emphasize that supposed "scumslips" shouldn't weaken the case on someone when there's better information to support it.

PPE: 2

[silverspawn]

it makes zero sense for scum!me to claim PR so early when it wouldn't even have had to claim first.

sigh. alright, SSP it is.

[Witherweaver]

Strange question: Dany would be my pick to be King (Queen) when Targ is in charge. But that's XP's flavor.

Targ, do you have any idea who will be the NPC King if you gain the most members?

There aren't any hints.  Maybe it will just be Dany anyway.

[Teproc]

Do we think there's a possibility of faust using a ++ setup to generate PRs ? Because randomly throwing a cop and a tracker seems weird.

[Witherweaver]

it makes zero sense for scum!me to claim PR so early when it wouldn't even have had to claim first.

sigh. alright, SSP it is.

It doesn't actually make no sense, because you would have come up with a fake claim before time.  And you'd be ready to present it, and not want to seem hesitant about it.

[Witherweaver]

Do we think there's a possibility of faust using a ++ setup to generate PRs ? Because randomly throwing a cop and a tracker seems weird.

Is Jailkeeper possible in those?

[ashersky]

Throw out the doctor thing and he's still the best claims-based lynch.

XP scares me (his role), but silver's "result" is pretty good evidence he's town.

[ashersky]

Post 1 says invented, semi-open, based on Monsters U and language.  I didn't play language, but invented Monsters U. 

I doubt he built a ++ system.  It took me ages to build asher9++.

[ashersky]

Do we think there's a possibility of faust using a ++ setup to generate PRs ? Because randomly throwing a cop and a tracker seems weird.

Is Jailkeeper possible in those?

No JK in any ++ set ups that we use.  RB instead.

[Teproc]

I meant that he could have used C9++ or something and not tell us. Voltgloss did that in MIV for example.

But yeah, mafia JK isn't a thing in those, so forget it.

[silverspawn]

It doesn't actually make no sense, because you would have come up with a fake claim before time.  And you'd be ready to present it, and not want to seem hesitant about it.

the thing I am trying to proof, and I can't believe I have to do this, is that I have very fast way of doing thinks, and an even faster way of thinking, which is why the "slip" doesn't mean anything.

scum!me could totally slip there. town!me did slip there.

PPE a lot

[Voltaire]

Do we think there's a possibility of faust using a ++ setup to generate PRs ? Because randomly throwing a cop and a tracker seems weird.

In a vacuum, ash is scum who fakeclaimed. 1-shot Cop + Tracker seems fine.

But this isn't a vacuum...

[Witherweaver]

It doesn't actually make no sense, because you would have come up with a fake claim before time.  And you'd be ready to present it, and not want to seem hesitant about it.

the thing I am trying to proof, and I can't believe I have to do this, is that I have very fast way of doing thinks, and an even faster way of thinking, which is why the "slip" doesn't mean anything.

scum!me could totally slip there. town!me did slip there.

PPE a lot

I realize that.  I'm responding to what was in the quote, because I didn't respond to it the first time you said it.

These examples are not good, by the way.

[Voltaire]

XP scares me (his role), but silver's "result" is pretty good evidence he's town.

The thing is, XP is the only claimed "based on the setup" role, of which we are guaranteed at least one.

So unless there's a scum role like that, XP's it.

[Witherweaver]

Do we think there's a possibility of faust using a ++ setup to generate PRs ? Because randomly throwing a cop and a tracker seems weird.

In a vacuum, ash is scum who fakeclaimed. 1-shot Cop + Tracker seems fine.

But this isn't a vacuum...

This was actually my thought, until Ash sounded actually convincing, and you semi-verified it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

XP scares me (his role), but silver's "result" is pretty good evidence he's town.

The thing is, XP is the only claimed "based on the setup" role, of which we are guaranteed at least one.

So unless there's a scum role like that, XP's it.

Please tell me I didn't miss another claim. I know XP claimed flavor and like Queen of Dragons or something, but he didn't actually say what his role is right?

[Voltaire]

Do we think there's a possibility of faust using a ++ setup to generate PRs ? Because randomly throwing a cop and a tracker seems weird.

In a vacuum, ash is scum who fakeclaimed. 1-shot Cop + Tracker seems fine.

But this isn't a vacuum...

This was actually my thought, until Ash sounded actually convincing, and you semi-verified it.

The only possible scenario I can think of, since we know that ash is a PR, is that he's a Rolecop who targeted Robz.

What else would make sense? Busdriver? It can't be JK, the JK is dead. And it can't be anything that would kill Robz, he's not dead, and since when does scum have a killing PR anyway.

[Voltaire]

XP scares me (his role), but silver's "result" is pretty good evidence he's town.

The thing is, XP is the only claimed "based on the setup" role, of which we are guaranteed at least one.

So unless there's a scum role like that, XP's it.

Please tell me I didn't miss another claim. I know XP claimed flavor and like Queen of Dragons or something, but he didn't actually say what his role is right?

He says he is a VT otherwise.

For us he is negative utility, and a negative utility VT is completely plausible.

[Teproc]

Rolecop is what you're looking for Voltaire.

[silverspawn]

I considered making it worth more than Gold, but I figured that this way it might actually be balanced (minus the "shave" clause, which could probably be abused depending on the game definition of "shave").  It's a $5 Gold with the drawback of being almost guaranteed to miss the reshuffle.  Thoughts on that?

as a serious card? boring. even more boring than stash.

I think it may be pretty good for engines as payload. Better than Gold even.

In any engine where you draw your deck each turn, this is much better than gold, even if it cost $6 you would prefer it to gold.

yea and then it's a worse version of nomad camp.

here I confused bandit camp with nomad camp. for no reason.

oups, that was about QT's and not about house powers. nvm.

here I read a post and confused QT's with house powers

can we please stop this now?

also, it would be nice if someone could actually present the case against me, since it looks like I am the primary suspect. I claimed a role that makes no sense to claim as scum. I didn't do anything scummy day1. I used my power in the  most logical way possible. I don't see it.

[Voltaire]

I would like to reveal that while the ash stuff was going down, Hydrad and I were still talking in the Barath QT, and Hydrad was defending ash.

[Teproc]

silver : why wouldn't it make sense for scum to claim that ?

[Witherweaver]

Um.. you remember that one time that PPS dude was totally scum and we were trying to lynch him and you were all like "No, dudes!  XP is totally teh scums!  Let's lynch him!"

[Witherweaver]

I would like to reveal that while the ash stuff was going down, Hydrad and I were still talking in the Barath QT, and Hydrad was defending ash.

I would probably have defended Ash as scum.

[silverspawn]

I'm responding to what was in the quote, because I didn't respond to it the first time you said it.

the thing that made no sense about that post was that I used it instead of i

[Ichimaru Gin]

I would like to reveal that while the ash stuff was going down, Hydrad and I were still talking in the Barath QT, and Hydrad was defending ash.

I noticed Hydrad lightly defending ash in the thread as well. What does it make you think in regards to his alignment.
To be honest, I typed up a post in defense of ash, but ending up deleting it--so I think town is capable of defending him.

In Hydrad's case though, I feel like it was a preemptive grab for town points since he already knew ash's alignment.

PPE: WW. I agree with you.

[Voltaire]

I would like to reveal that while the ash stuff was going down, Hydrad and I were still talking in the Barath QT, and Hydrad was defending ash.

I would probably have defended Ash as scum.

That's what I'm sorta saying, I guess - ash distracting us from Hydrad could be a thing.

I'm considering all options.

[Witherweaver]

I'm responding to what was in the quote, because I didn't respond to it the first time you said it.

the thing that made no sense about that post was that I used it instead of i

Great, not the point.  The point is that your claim, and the manner in which you claimed it, is entirely believable as a scum fake claim.

[silverspawn]

I'm responding to what was in the quote, because I didn't respond to it the first time you said it.

the thing that made no sense about that post was that I used it instead of i

Great, not the point.  The point is that your claim, and the manner in which you claimed it, is entirely believable as a scum fake claim.

i thought you meant a different quote.

why is it believable as scum?

[Teproc]

I would like to reveal that while the ash stuff was going down, Hydrad and I were still talking in the Barath QT, and Hydrad was defending ash.

I would probably have defended Ash as scum.

That's what I'm sorta saying, I guess - ash distracting us from Hydrad could be a thing.

I'm considering all options.

Let's keep in mind that Hydrad is mega-scummy for his interactions with PPS anyway, and is probaly assuming he'll be lynched today.

[Witherweaver]

I'm responding to what was in the quote, because I didn't respond to it the first time you said it.

the thing that made no sense about that post was that I used it instead of i

Great, not the point.  The point is that your claim, and the manner in which you claimed it, is entirely believable as a scum fake claim.

i thought you meant a different quote.

why is it believable as scum?

It doesn't actually make no sense, because you would have come up with a fake claim before time.  And you'd be ready to present it, and not want to seem hesitant about it.

[Voltaire]

Fascinating. Green/Red are flips. Orange is probably town to everyone at this point (other than ash). So consider this biased with my reads.

D1 Final Vote

pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, EgorK
XerxesPraelor (3): Hydrad, pingpongsam, silverspawn
pingpongsam (7): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor, Voltaire, azadin

pacof actually reached L-1, right? And then XP became the last-minute alternate wagon after that, if I'm remembering correctly. Which I would say is huge town points for both of them.

[silverspawn]

It doesn't actually make no sense, because you would have come up with a fake claim before time.  And you'd be ready to present it, and not want to seem hesitant about it

.

okay, i get what you're saying. it makes some sense, though I could just claim VT and I'd be in less trouble now.

do you think I also claimed too early on purpose? because someone was saying, we can just let the investigative roles claim, and we don't have to do a massclaim I think it was Hydrad. Then Voltaire claimed, and I thought, so we're doing that, and I claimed.

[Teproc]

I don't think pacovf reached L-1, but he was certainly the main alternative to PPS after WW said no to XP, which is certainly worth town points.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Back to vote: Hydrad

I pretty much only want to lynch Hydrad or silver today. Hydrad has been pretty quiet lately, and as someone (Voltaire?) mentioned, I could easily see scum trying to distract from him with these huge fights and somewhat empty discussions.

PPE: 3

It irks me a little bit that people don't see me as town yet, but whatever. My actions speak for themselves.

[Voltaire]

Let's keep in mind that Hydrad is mega-scummy for his interactions with PPS anyway, and is probaly assuming he'll be lynched today.

Another interesting(TM) thing from the Barath QT about Hydrad is how he said (today) he was surprised I had a town read on him, something I said during N1 (I forget why).

[Voltaire]

It irks me a little bit that people don't see me as town yet, but whatever. My actions speak for themselves.

I think you're town and I think you should be strongly town, but not obv!town. So ~80% town, which is pretty good.

[Hydrad]

Ok I have a 15 minute break and you guys posted a ton catching up now.

[Witherweaver]

Though if anyone bussed PPS, it almost has to be Ichi of Pacman.

[Voltaire]

vote: XP

I believe this is L-1

It was XP, not Pacof.

Yeah, I have to think XP is town, even without the silver thing.

[Teproc]

Let's keep in mind that Hydrad is mega-scummy for his interactions with PPS anyway, and is probaly assuming he'll be lynched today.

Another interesting(TM) thing from the Barath QT about Hydrad is how he said (today) he was surprised I had a town read on him, something I said during N1 (I forget why).

I asked him why he expected to be suspected today specifically because I think town!Hydrad would not expect that, since he professed a scum read on PPS for a large part of D1. It's the kind of thing that would take someone putting it out there (as Ichi did) for town to go "oh yeah, that's actually a good case on me."

PPE : 4

[Voltaire]

Though if anyone bussed PPS, it almost has to be Ichi of Pacman.

Ichi re-invigorated the PPS wagon when it seemed likely dead. I don't see it.

[Witherweaver]

Though if anyone bussed PPS, it almost has to be Ichi of Pacman.

Ichi re-invigorated the PPS wagon when it seemed likely dead. I don't see it.

So you think they're both off wagon?

[Witherweaver]

(Working with 3 scum team assumption.)

[Voltaire]

Though if anyone bussed PPS, it almost has to be Ichi of Pacman.

Ichi re-invigorated the PPS wagon when it seemed likely dead. I don't see it.

So you think they're both off wagon?

I think that is the most likely, yes. However, if somebody is on-wagon, I think it is most likely pacofv.

[Ichimaru Gin]

It irks me a little bit that people don't see me as town yet, but whatever. My actions speak for themselves.

I think you're town and I think you should be strongly town, but not obv!town. So ~80% town, which is pretty good.

I appreciate you clarifying that for me, and it makes me feel better that time likely won't be wasted on paying too much attention to me.
And yeah, that is good considering that I'm a VT and no one has results on me.
PPE: 8

[ashersky]

I think pacovf on wagon (obviously), silverspawn off wagon.

I need to re-read hydrad, as there is clearly a lot of opinion there.

80 pages...here we go!

[Witherweaver]

I think Pac is town.

How often do two scum lead the Day 1 wagons? 

[Witherweaver]

Plus he actually solved our claiming stalemate.  Town points for that.

[silverspawn]

ash, between me and Pac, who is more likely to be scum?

[Hydrad]

wow this is going really good for us. I think only way town can lose this game is if someone like teproc who many people think is town is actually scum. And even then we have a really high chance on this game.

(I know this probably sounds scummy but felt like I should say it anyways)

as for the SS case I had a town read on him before his slip. (I've posted some reads in the QT and will post them out here if people are interested) but since the slip its gone to a slight scum read.

I think my top 2 lynches are be egork and silver right now. Ichi keeps jumping between a top scum read and a town read for me.

PPE:4

[Voltaire]

Four off-wagon: Hydrad, EgorK, ashersky, and silver.

Any pair among those 4 makes sense to me. Hydrad probably fits most pairings better though?

[Voltaire]

Full disclosure, WW was also off-wagon, but 

[Teproc]

Town is way too powerful if everyone is telling the truth. Even is silver is lying. I'm starting to think there are two scum factions.

[Teproc]

Full disclosure, WW was also off-wagon, but 

Not really, he had intent to hammer.

[silverspawn]

but since the slip its gone to a slight scum read.

I. don't. buy. it. you don't believe that the slip matters. this is opportunistic jump-on-the-most-popular-wagon

vote: Hydrad

[Teproc]

Uh, how many votes is that on Hydrad ?

[Witherweaver]

Town is way too powerful if everyone is telling the truth. Even is silver is lying. I'm starting to think there are two scum factions.

Huh.. also possible there is a Mafia Traitor.  That was in MU (it was even Faust).

[Ichimaru Gin]

Plus he actually solved our claiming stalemate.  Town points for that.

That's a really good point.

Ichi keeps jumping between a top scum read and a town read for me.

?
Guessing I was a town read when I was voting for silver?

[Witherweaver]

Oooh.. thinking more, Vote: Hydrad because reasons.

[Voltaire]

Town is way too powerful if everyone is telling the truth. Even is silver is lying. I'm starting to think there are two scum factions.

silver, post in the Baratheon QT what result you get if your target isn't Realm-Aligned/Innocent. Ask faust if you need to.

[Teproc]

Uh, how many votes is that on Hydrad ?

Never mind, there are like, two or three.

[Voltaire]

Uh, how many votes is that on Hydrad ?

Too many for not having a plan for night!!!

[silverspawn]

Town is way too powerful if everyone is telling the truth. Even is silver is lying. I'm starting to think there are two scum factions.

silver, post in the Baratheon QT what result you get if your target isn't Realm-Aligned/Innocent. Ask faust if you need to.

what?

[Witherweaver]

These reasons:

Well I'm here and I kinda new I was going to have to fight my lynch today.

Anyways one thing is that it looks like there might only be one scum team since there was one death. If that's true this makes me not worried about volt being scum right now as the only thing I was scared of was if there was a second scum team.

[Voltaire]

Town is way too powerful if everyone is telling the truth. Even is silver is lying. I'm starting to think there are two scum factions.

silver, post in the Baratheon QT what result you get if your target isn't Realm-Aligned/Innocent. Ask faust if you need to.

what?

Tell me what result you get if your target is not aligned with town.

[Hydrad]

Plus he actually solved our claiming stalemate.  Town points for that.

That's a really good point.

Ichi keeps jumping between a top scum read and a town read for me.

?
Guessing I was a town read when I was voting for silver?

huh I guess so. I've posted in the QT about you. you were first null. then slight scum. Then I started to think you were high scum. but more recently I've moved towards more town(not because of silver vote but i guess the timings there). My read on you is almost full gut read though so thats why its jumping so much.

[Voltaire]

What do we do tonight?

The problem is I am not 100% confident on ash.

My vague outline - point out problems.

1. All Baratheons go to Stark (except me, who goes to Targ)
2. Anyone except for ash who is unaccounted for is in Baratheon, and is now obv!scum (what if ash moves to Baratheon? I can't see a way to deal with this)
3. Stark can now WIFOM if they're protecting ash/me. Ash is unrestricted in investigations. I am not really constrained (I can't target WW, XP, or Robz, all huge town reads for me)
4. Targ can roleblock/rolestop as they choose

Thoughts?

[ashersky]

Hydrad has 126 posts as of this writing:

7th post of the game is the ubiquitous "if there are doctors and stuff be careful about claims" warning.

Up to his 20th post of the game and what sticks out is just how jokey he is.  Like, every other post is "emoticon join my house emoticon".

His 30th post of the game is the first to bring up claiming empowerments.  Fishing?

His 36th post, he's aghast that we'd suggest dissolving his house.

His 37th post, he thinks at least let's empower it before killing it.

His 45th post is everyone's favorite, I think.  The self-aware one about not being a game of mafia if he isn't suspected.

His 46th post makes little sense to me.  Exact quote: "that is one thing to be aware of. If scum is afriad of the lannister power the easiest way for them to do that is to just kill me and egork."

His 52nd post of the game has his first read: doesn't want to lynch EgorK.

His 62nd post is his popsquiz.  He also votes XP in this post -- his first vote of the game.  Notable, as he was super jokey but never RVS voted.

1. silverspawn - null
2. pacovf - nullish scum
3. ashersky - townish
4. Hydrad - IC obviously
5. Witherweaver - about 90% IC. I agree that no scum should do that and I'm not going to lynch him for a while. But if hes somehow still alive at the last 3 or something I'm going to consider him and not give him a free pass like everyone else seems too
6. Teproc - slight town
7. XerxesPraelor - I see him as scummy. His vote on me had really no context. It was just a vote on me. He also hasn't posted much so people are forgetting that hes in this game which is what scum wants I think
8. EgorK - mini scum read? actually probably more null. Egork has barely been in this game at all but from him I'm getting a more unavailable vibe then a trying to hide vibe. Not really sure why.
9. Robz888 - slight scum read. Not as scummy as XP but still don't like it. This isn't how he normally plays but I'm feeling its also a more unavailable feeling then anything.
10. Ichimaru Gin - town read
11. pingpongsam - scummy also.
12. azadin - null
13. Voltaire - town

In his 67th post, he says XP and PPS are scum.  Classic scum play here is to name one partner and one townie.

In his 69th post, he says he trusts Robz.

In his 72nd post, he says he's interested in PPS, but expresses some hesitation due to the town reads given him by azadin and myself.  He makes another self-aware comment here, as well.

In his 75th post, he comments on Voltaire's PPS vote, saying he didn't know Voltaire thought PPS was scum (which I think was obvious by then, right?).

In his 76th post, he says he was being sarcastic.  Cover up?

In his 77th post, he brings up pacovf painting him as scummy without voting for him.  Redirect?

In his 80th post, he responds to pacovf's question of whether anyone has seen scum!silverspawn yet.  He's pretty quick to say no.  Given new info and reads on silverspawn, this is interested.

In his 81st post, he says he's good with and EgorK lurker lynch, but prefers XP more.

In his 83rd post, he makes it "a lurker lynch" or "maybe pacovf."  Not sure that was accurate at the time.

In his 85th post, he says he doesn't want to lynch PPS right after PPS says he'll be active on D2.

In his 87th post, again feels bad about the PPS lynch.

His 90th post was his final of Day 1.

[ashersky]

ash, between me and Pac, who is more likely to be scum?

At this point?  You, for sure.

I'm very confident in my pacovf read.  But you are basically in a counterclaim situation and caught.  I'll take that over reads any day.

I mean, if everyone wanted to suddenly lynch pacovf, awesome!  (except not, because that would be a bad sign)

But yeah, you for sure.

[silverspawn]

But yeah, you for sure.

okay

[ashersky]

What do we do tonight?

The problem is I am not 100% confident on ash.

My vague outline - point out problems.

1. All Baratheons go to Stark (except me, who goes to Targ)
2. Anyone except for ash who is unaccounted for is in Baratheon, and is now obv!scum (what if ash moves to Baratheon? I can't see a way to deal with this)
3. Stark can now WIFOM if they're protecting ash/me. Ash is unrestricted in investigations. I am not really constrained (I can't target WW, XP, or Robz, all huge town reads for me)
4. Targ can roleblock/rolestop as they choose

Thoughts?

Well, we have no option of reducing to one house anymore.  So we need to put just enough people with XP to ensure town control there, while everyone else is in Stark for protection.  Lannister is dead and gone anyway.

I get that there's no way for anyone to ensure I didn't go to Baratheon.  But that's some pretty long term planning for me if that was my goal.

I mean, generally speaking, I don't care about house composition at all, so long as I'm not in a house.  If you all can work out a safe way for houses to exist and not be controlled by scum, then go for it.

I think lynching scum today will go a long way in doing that.

[Voltaire]

I agree. Just understand, ash, that even though I think it's most likely you're town, this game having a Tracker and full Cop is weird and so I need to try to guard against the conspiracy theory.

There's actually no reason I couldn't go Houseless myself, except then it locks me in and for some reason I was thinking it would be good to be in a House...maybe not though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I want to lynch Hydrad today and likely silver tomorrow, depending.

My actual scum-read on Hydrad is much stronger than my read on silver--and Hydrad's reads and interactions just scream scum. So please let's lynch him today and not get sidetracked by other stuff.

[ashersky]

So we can do this for sure...and we can go deeper when we look at PPS.

silverspawn
pacovf
ashersky - I really hesitate to do this, but copping Robz D1 makes perfect sense, and he sure as heck performed an action on Robz.
Hydrad
Witherweaver - play + mod situation
Teproc - play
XerxesPraelor - silver's "result"
EgorK
Robz888 - ash's result (even if ash is scum, I don't think he targets his own partner with a PR, maybe jailkeeper? anyway not something to consider today)
Ichimaru Gin
Voltaire - make the case I'm scum. I dare you.

Fascinating. Green/Red are flips. Orange is probably town to everyone at this point (other than ash). So consider this biased with my reads.

D1 Final Vote

pacovf (3): ashersky, Witherweaver, EgorK
XerxesPraelor (3): Hydrad, pingpongsam, silverspawn
pingpongsam (7): Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, Robz888, pacovf, XerxesPraelor, Voltaire, azadin

pacof actually reached L-1, right? And then XP became the last-minute alternate wagon after that, if I'm remembering correctly. Which I would say is huge town points for both of them.

I think we can combine these.  We have POE + on-wagon and off-wagon:

We have silverspawn, pacovf, Hydrad, EgorK, and Ichimaru Gin

I agree with Voltaire's POE list as is.

[Voltaire]

My actual scum-read on Hydrad is much stronger than my read on silver--and Hydrad's reads and interactions just scream scum. So please let's lynch him today and not get sidetracked by other stuff.

It seems likely we're going to lynch Hydrad. But we need a plan for tonight.

[Voltaire]

If we have two scum teams, where did their NK go?

[ashersky]

If we have two scum teams, where did their NK go?

Stark's doctor?

[Teproc]

Well I did doctor someone, so maybe there.

[ashersky]

Setup information

There are 13 players, some of which are mafia and rest town (Realm-aligned in this game).

[ashersky]

I think that's pretty indicative that there are "mafia" and "town" and nothing else.

[Teproc]

Yeah.

So this should be easy.

[Voltaire]

I think that's pretty indicative that there are "mafia" and "town" and nothing else.

I've been thinking the same.

[Teproc]

Volt, if the problem in your plan is ash going to Baratheon... why do we need to empy Baratheon ?

[Hydrad]

Its going to be a bit harder since i'm town :/

I think you guys have to be careful. If ash is scum and jumps into baratheon or someone else does. Its really hard to keep track of everyone in a game like this

[Voltaire]

Volt, if the problem in your plan is ash going to Baratheon... why do we need to empy Baratheon ?

I honestly forget why.

The trick is we want Stark to be biggest, so the Doctor is strongman.

I need to re-read the current Baratheon QT thinking Hydrad is scum. Because I put my finger on why my gut says town and it was the QT.

[Teproc]

Volt, if the problem in your plan is ash going to Baratheon... why do we need to empy Baratheon ?

I honestly forget why.

The trick is we want Stark to be biggest, so the Doctor is strongman.

I need to re-read the current Baratheon QT thinking Hydrad is scum. Because I put my finger on why my gut says town and it was the QT.

I have a lot of trouble with Hydrad. Part of it also related to an ongoing game, so...

But the evidence is there, in terms of interactions. Find the case Ichi made at the start of the day, it's really solid.

[Voltaire]

The following post will be me summarizing things from the Baratheon QT re: Hydrad. The two of us were easily the most talkative.

• his first post is jokey
• he is the first to suggest that we use our power, even though we said we wouldn't, and said I should do it (I had come to the same conclusion BUT NOT POSTED IT yet)
• says he thinks we have scum in the QT
• says it's cool to have something to do at night
• asks EgorK (who was quiet) what he thinks about the idea of me using the power
• says if he were scum he would NK me or WW
• says he only realized during N1 that scum would really want to be in Baratheon for the extra NK
• then the day opens, and he says he'll talk in the QT but won't be posting in the thread much. And was true to that. Leaves by saying he trusts EgorK the least.

[silverspawn]

great.

ash, please investigate me in the following night. or, voltaire, track me (if hydrad flips scum). Assuming a 3 scum team, if I am the only scum left, I'm the only one who can perform the night kill. that's how it works, right?

[silverspawn]

If you don't lynch me today, just investigate me and you'll see that I'm town.

[Voltaire]

If you don't lynch me today, just investigate me and you'll see that I'm town.

This is known as "claiming Godfather".

[Teproc]

Voltaire, I'm assuming you wanted to be Hand of the King for the Strongman part right ?

PPE : Great, now silverspawn is softclaiming Godfather.

[silverspawn]

I want to be investigated because i'm TOWN.

I'm sure there's also a role that's immune to tracking. nexus? did I softclaim Nexus now too?

[Teproc]

I want to be investigated because i'm TOWN.

I'm sure there's also a role that's immune to tracking. nexus? did I softclaim Nexus now too?

Ninja. Yes.

Don't ever tell PRs what to do.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, I'm assuming you wanted to be Hand of the King for the Strongman part right ?

PPE : Great, now silverspawn is softclaiming Godfather.

Yes, which was a tricky line to walk, without outing I was a PR to my house. Fortunately, they decided my work on the PPS lynch was enough to trust me with our Priming/Ignition, and I then happily got to be a Strongman Tracker too.

[Teproc]

So why would it be townie for Hydrad to want to use the power since he's claiming VT ?

[Voltaire]

So why would it be townie for Hydrad to want to use the power since he's claiming VT ?

Hmmm? He didn't want to use it himself, he wanted me to use it.

[silverspawn]

Don't ever tell PRs what to do.

...

sure. do whatever. apparently I'm a godfather now, so even if he does investigate me, it doesn't prove my innocence.

[Teproc]

So why would it be townie for Hydrad to want to use the power since he's claiming VT ?

Hmmm? He didn't want to use it himself, he wanted me to use it.

Yeah but the Baratheon power is anti town. Wanting someone, anyone, to use it is bad.

[Teproc]

Basically had I been in your house, I would not have given you hand of the king. Sure, you're most likely town, but I wouldn't risk giving scum an extra kill.

Did Egork also vote for you ?

[Voltaire]

So why would it be townie for Hydrad to want to use the power since he's claiming VT ?

Hmmm? He didn't want to use it himself, he wanted me to use it.

Yeah but the Baratheon power is anti town. Wanting someone, anyone, to use it is bad.

Wait...could this be an indication that Hydrad and his partner were both in Baratheon? That they wouldn't be legal targets?

[Voltaire]

Basically had I been in your house, I would not have given you hand of the king. Sure, you're most likely town, but I wouldn't risk giving scum an extra kill.

Did Egork also vote for you ?

EgorK did not vote. azadin voted for himself. Everyone else voted for me.

[Hydrad]

So why would it be townie for Hydrad to want to use the power since he's claiming VT ?

Hmmm? He didn't want to use it himself, he wanted me to use it.

Yeah but the Baratheon power is anti town. Wanting someone, anyone, to use it is bad.

Wait...could this be an indication that Hydrad and his partner were both in Baratheon? That they wouldn't be legal targets?

I think i warned everyone that that could happen

[Teproc]

Basically had I been in your house, I would not have given you hand of the king. Sure, you're most likely town, but I wouldn't risk giving scum an extra kill.

Did Egork also vote for you ?

EgorK did not vote. azadin voted for himself. Everyone else voted for me.

That's silverspawn and you then.

Silver, why did you vote for Voltaire to have an anti-town power we had agreed not to use ?

[Hydrad]

in the QT at least. Just going from memory. I know I at least thought it.

[Voltaire]

Town is way too powerful if everyone is telling the truth. Even is silver is lying. I'm starting to think there are two scum factions.

silver, post in the Baratheon QT what result you get if your target isn't Realm-Aligned/Innocent. Ask faust if you need to.

what?

Are you going to do this, silver?

[Voltaire]

btw, complete disagreement that the power is, in a vacuum, anti-town. It's a form of a Vig. But that's an academic debate.

[silverspawn]

Basically had I been in your house, I would not have given you hand of the king. Sure, you're most likely town, but I wouldn't risk giving scum an extra kill.

Did Egork also vote for you ?

EgorK did not vote. azadin voted for himself. Everyone else voted for me.

That's silverspawn and you then.

Silver, why did you vote for Voltaire to have an anti-town power we had agreed not to use ?

i have never agreed not to use it. I have said several times during D1 that I shared Hydrad's opinion about it (which is that it's a strong power and should not be given up). You'll see that if you reread me.

[silverspawn]

Are you going to do this, silver?

you receive result as realm aligned or mafia. i thought that was clear.

[Teproc]

It's anti-town because it can be used as an additional NK by scum.

Vigs are not anti-town, but that's because their NK is always controlled by town.

I can't believe people actually considered using it.

[Teproc]

Even moreso because it goes like this : N1 some person of unknown alignment ignites someone. Later, some person of unknown alignement will get to kill that person. So evne if you're town using the power, the kill might still be controlled by scum.

How is that not anti town ?

[Hydrad]

Ok just curious. Is there anyone in this game that doesn't think I'm scum?

[Voltaire]

Even moreso because it goes like this : N1 some person of unknown alignment ignites someone. Later, some person of unknown alignement will get to kill that person. So evne if you're town using the power, the kill might still be controlled by scum.

How is that not anti town ?

Oh, it totally is.

[Voltaire]

Except town can insure it won't play out like that, so.

[silverspawn]

Ok just curious. Is there anyone in this game that doesn't think I'm scum?

I didn't think you were until you jumped on my wagon for a bullshit reason.

[Voltaire]

Ok just curious. Is there anyone in this game that doesn't think I'm scum?

My gut says you're not.

[Teproc]

Except town can insure it won't play out like that, so.

With an IC you mean ? That's the only way I can see.

[Teproc]

Hydrad : my gut says no, my brain says yes.

I'm not confident enough in my ability to read you to ignore your interactions, so I think we should lynch you.

[Voltaire]

Except town can insure it won't play out like that, so.

With an IC you mean ? That's the only way I can see.

Or abandoning the House (knowing that anyone unaccounted for just became obv!scum)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hydrad : my gut says no, my brain says yes.

I'm not confident enough in my ability to read you to ignore your interactions, so I think we should lynch you.

Exactly this.

There is a primitive paranoia that makes me not want to lynch him, but reason really points to him being scum.

[ashersky]

Are you going to do this, silver?

you receive result as realm aligned or mafia. i thought that was clear.

I would point out I already claimed this.

[silverspawn]

Are you going to do this, silver?

you receive result as realm aligned or mafia. i thought that was clear.

I would point out I already claimed this.

I would point out that this is precisely why it's clear.

[Witherweaver]

If we have two scum teams, where did their NK go?

Think hard about things!

[Witherweaver]

There is a problem, though.  If cops get realm-aligned or Mafia, there can't be another faction.  Not even an SK.

[Witherweaver]

So cops are lying or only one faction.

[XerxesPraelor]

This setup seems way too easy for town - and that makes me very scared.

[Hydrad]

I know I'm still getting lynched but since I'll flip town I think I should keep posting my thoughts to help out. I'm very worried that one of the people everyone thinks is really townie must be scum.

[XerxesPraelor]

BTW, I agree with the rest that you read towny, but all the evidence points to you being scum. The one bonus is that if we lynch you and you're scum we'll know that there are two factions. I actually am against this lynch. I think silverspawn is much scummier.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also it's funny how much consensus there is on Hydrad.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also it's funny how much consensus there is on Hydrad.

That is a worrisome point. I can see scum bussing him though, especially with a case right out of the gate D2.

Nice avatar btw. Android Netrunner if I'm not mistaken.

[ashersky]

I definitely prefer silverspawn at this point.

I think some of the "too easy for town" stuff comes from us hitting the JK on Day 1.  I mean, that's a huge swing in power.  We've basically successfully manipulated the house powers, which I'm sure were meant to balance stuff as well.

Happens sometimes.

I think silverspawn's claim is easily the fakiest.  After that, we have reads-based lynch possibilities (pacovf for me, hydrad for a lot of people).  We also have wagon analysis, and also PPS interaction to look at.  Plus, we have some fairly strong town establishments in Robz (my result), XP (silver's "result"), plus WW/Teproc/Voltaire (general towniness).

Town just has a lot to work with, especially for a D2.  If there's a person just getting away with a great town performance as scum, it's in that last three.

[Robz888]

Just caught up. I completely believe ash is town, though I believed he was even before his claim.

Hydrad, Silverspawn, pacovf, azadin all seem like good lynches to me.

I'm like the most IC person now, right? Mwahaha.

[ashersky]

Just caught up. I completely believe ash is town, though I believed he was even before his claim.

Hydrad, Silverspawn, pacovf, azadin all seem like good lynches to me.

I'm like the most IC person now, right? Mwahaha.

Dude.  Avatar.

[ashersky]

Just caught up. I completely believe ash is town, though I believed he was even before his claim.

Hydrad, Silverspawn, pacovf, azadin all seem like good lynches to me.

I'm like the most IC person now, right? Mwahaha.

Dude.  Avatar.

Actually, if all the other Links would go back to normal, I could just get used to adult Link = Robz.

[Robz888]

I definitely prefer silverspawn at this point.

I think some of the "too easy for town" stuff comes from us hitting the JK on Day 1.  I mean, that's a huge swing in power.  We've basically successfully manipulated the house powers, which I'm sure were meant to balance stuff as well.

Happens sometimes.

I think silverspawn's claim is easily the fakiest.  After that, we have reads-based lynch possibilities (pacovf for me, hydrad for a lot of people).  We also have wagon analysis, and also PPS interaction to look at.  Plus, we have some fairly strong town establishments in Robz (my result), XP (silver's "result"), plus WW/Teproc/Voltaire (general towniness).

Town just has a lot to work with, especially for a D2.  If there's a person just getting away with a great town performance as scum, it's in that last three.

I agree with the above, although I should note there's nothing to acquit Teproc as strongly as WW or Voltaire, to my knowledge. Have I forgotten something?

[Robz888]

Just caught up. I completely believe ash is town, though I believed he was even before his claim.

Hydrad, Silverspawn, pacovf, azadin all seem like good lynches to me.

I'm like the most IC person now, right? Mwahaha.

Dude.  Avatar.

I thought it was time for a change, though the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative...

[ashersky]

I agree with the above, although I should note there's nothing to acquit Teproc as strongly as WW or Voltaire, to my knowledge. Have I forgotten something?

You haven't forgotten. Just overall strong town reads from basically everyone (including me, from when I was in the House Stark QT with him).

[Witherweaver]

I'm pretty sure Azadin is town, Robz...

[Robz888]

I'm pretty sure Azadin is town, Robz...

Noted.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Robz heads off to the graveyard with a noose, whistling to himself.

[silverspawn]

I thought it was time for a change, though the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative...

sorry

I'll ask everyone who wants to lynch me to reread my d1 first.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, I'm scared of a Voltaire/Ash scumteam, or less likelily, an ash/robz one. Wouldn't that be something to deal with?

PPE: will do

[Ichimaru Gin]

I thought it was time for a change, though the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative...

sorry

I'll ask everyone who wants to lynch me to reread my d1 first.

I still want to lynch Hydrad over you at this point.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 2.4

Hydrad (3): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn, Witherweaver
silverspawn (1): ashersky
ashersky (2): XerxesPraelor, EgorK

Not Voting (5): pacovf, Hydrad, Robz888, Voltaire, Teproc


With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[EgorK]

Strange question: Dany would be my pick to be King (Queen) when Targ is in charge. But that's XP's flavor.

Targ, do you have any idea who will be the NPC King if you gain the most members?

I would actually think Dany would be queen as well. With that automatic Hand it makes sence

PPE: couple of pages

[EgorK]

It irks me a little bit that people don't see me as town yet, but whatever. My actions speak for themselves.

I think you're town and I think you should be strongly town, but not obv!town. So ~80% town, which is pretty good.

You do understand that 80% town is scummier than average assuming 3 scum at start?

[EgorK]

Quick unvote, thoughts to follow

[EgorK]

Are you going to do this, silver?

you receive result as realm aligned or mafia. i thought that was clear.

I would defenately think other result would be "Grejoy alligned", but as ash reports same result - oh well

[EgorK]

I think silver 100500% more scummier than Hydrad. I think Hydrad should repost his D2 posts from bar qt here

vote: silver

[Witherweaver]

Okay, stupid me just actually looked up what Jailkeeper is.  I had had it confused with the uh.. scum role that hides flips, that Teproc was in Monster's U.. Janitor?

So maybe people discussed this.. but why have a Jailkeeper on Mafia team unless there is another killing faction, or a chance for it?  Why not just make it a Roleblocker?

Or maybe it gives them the option to claim something townie for town cred.

[EgorK]

Okay, stupid me just actually looked up what Jailkeeper is.  I had had it confused with the uh.. scum role that hides flips, that Teproc was in Monster's U.. Janitor?

So maybe people discussed this.. but why have a Jailkeeper on Mafia team unless there is another killing faction, or a chance for it?  Why not just make it a Roleblocker?

Or maybe it gives them the option to claim something townie for town cred.

I think for mafia it is just weaker version of roleblocker - like you cannot roleblock and kill someone

[Witherweaver]

Okay, stupid me just actually looked up what Jailkeeper is.  I had had it confused with the uh.. scum role that hides flips, that Teproc was in Monster's U.. Janitor?

So maybe people discussed this.. but why have a Jailkeeper on Mafia team unless there is another killing faction, or a chance for it?  Why not just make it a Roleblocker?

Or maybe it gives them the option to claim something townie for town cred.

I think for mafia it is just weaker version of roleblocker - like you cannot roleblock and kill someone

Well I guess that's a good point, but how often do you want to Roleblock and kill your target?  Maybe if they can commute or something.

[Ichimaru Gin]

It irks me a little bit that people don't see me as town yet, but whatever. My actions speak for themselves.

I think you're town and I think you should be strongly town, but not obv!town. So ~80% town, which is pretty good.

You do understand that 80% town is scummier than average assuming 3 scum at start?

I can't even begin to list all of the things wrong with this statement.
Whatever, it's an empty point anyway.

You voting for silver makes me feel better about lynching Hydrad today.

Also, I probably won't be back for a while.

[pacovf]

Hey, I'm back!

First thing first, huge kudos to Faust for the flavour. Amazing work!

Second thing, what's up with the avatar stravaganza? I was already pretty shaken when blueblimp revealed that he was a girl after he shaved those glorious sideburns of his, now all these changes are leaving me confused and lost.

Third thing (and the only one that is actually relevant), I haven't had time to reread D1 since the flip(s), and I've only skimmed D2 while I was away (25 pages?), so I will need some time to give reasoned thoughts about all the stuff that has been happening. Specifically, I have to revise my reads after all the claiming. You will probably have to wait until tonight, sorry.

[Robz888]

Okay, stupid me just actually looked up what Jailkeeper is.  I had had it confused with the uh.. scum role that hides flips, that Teproc was in Monster's U.. Janitor?

So maybe people discussed this.. but why have a Jailkeeper on Mafia team unless there is another killing faction, or a chance for it?  Why not just make it a Roleblocker?

Or maybe it gives them the option to claim something townie for town cred.

I think for mafia it is just weaker version of roleblocker - like you cannot roleblock and kill someone

Well I guess that's a good point, but how often do you want to Roleblock and kill your target?  Maybe if they can commute or something.

Actually being a Jailkeeper makes it easier for scum to claim Jailkeeper, though, which is often a town role, so it could be good for them that way. Also, given the Baratheon death-to-all power, it could be used defensively. Otherwise I would agree with you that it suggests an SK, at least.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, stupid me just actually looked up what Jailkeeper is.  I had had it confused with the uh.. scum role that hides flips, that Teproc was in Monster's U.. Janitor?

So maybe people discussed this.. but why have a Jailkeeper on Mafia team unless there is another killing faction, or a chance for it?  Why not just make it a Roleblocker?

Or maybe it gives them the option to claim something townie for town cred.

I think for mafia it is just weaker version of roleblocker - like you cannot roleblock and kill someone

Well I guess that's a good point, but how often do you want to Roleblock and kill your target?  Maybe if they can commute or something.

Actually being a Jailkeeper makes it easier for scum to claim Jailkeeper, though, which is often a town role, so it could be good for them that way. Also, given the Baratheon death-to-all power, it could be used defensively. Otherwise I would agree with you that it suggests an SK, at least.

Oh yeah, good point with the Baratheon power.

[Witherweaver]

But like I said before, the problem with an SK is that, if there were an SK, investigators would get "Realm-Aligned" or "Not Realm-Aligned", or "Mafia" or "Not Mafia"; not "Realm-Aligned" or "Mafia".

[pacovf]

I think I can answer this now, though: given all the claimed investigative roles around (more on that when I finish my reread), a jailkeeper has two chances to "roleblock" an investigation: if it targets the investigator, and if it targets the investigated. And there is no way to tell which of the two happened, right?

Plus, haven't we reached the conclusion that there is only one mafia faction? From the setup information, investigative roles, and the way PPS alignment is worded?

PPE 1

[Witherweaver]

Both Ash and Silverspawn could be lying.

[Teproc]

I think I can answer this now, though: given all the claimed investigative roles around (more on that when I finish my reread), a jailkeeper has two chances to "roleblock" an investigation: if it targets the investigator, and if it targets the investigated. And there is no way to tell which of the two happened, right?

That's a variant of the Jailkeeper, most jailkeepers, at least on f.ds, don't do that.

[EgorK]

It irks me a little bit that people don't see me as town yet, but whatever. My actions speak for themselves.

I think you're town and I think you should be strongly town, but not obv!town. So ~80% town, which is pretty good.

You do understand that 80% town is scummier than average assuming 3 scum at start?

I can't even begin to list all of the things wrong with this statement.
Whatever, it's an empty point anyway.

You voting for silver makes me feel better about lynching Hydrad today.

Also, I probably won't be back for a while.

Sorry, I didn't get that update on math where 2/11 became more than 1 - 8/10

[Voltaire]

I think I can answer this now, though: given all the claimed investigative roles around (more on that when I finish my reread), a jailkeeper has two chances to "roleblock" an investigation: if it targets the investigator, and if it targets the investigated. And there is no way to tell which of the two happened, right?

That's a variant of the Jailkeeper, most jailkeepers, at least on f.ds, don't do that.

Correct. When I used that kind of jailkeeper in one of my games, I called it an Alien Jailkeeper (just 'cause that's what the wiki says) and made it clear it was different in the PM.

I currently see no evidence we're facing 2 factions whatsoever.

[Voltaire]

Sorry, I didn't get that update on math where 2/11 became more than 1 - 8/10

My stupid number aside, my point is that IG is town. Are you debating that actual point?

[EgorK]

Sorry, I didn't get that update on math where 2/11 became more than 1 - 8/10

My stupid number aside, my point is that IG is town. Are you debating that actual point?

Sorry, this is just stupid pet peeve of mine of math used incorrectly. I'll try to contain myself in the future

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry, I didn't get that update on math where 2/11 became more than 1 - 8/10

My stupid number aside, my point is that IG is town. Are you debating that actual point?

Sorry, this is just stupid pet peeve of mine of math used incorrectly. I'll try to contain myself in the future

If you're still alive. . .
*Evil VT laughter

[EgorK]

Staying on the topic - I do not remember forming any specific read on him before recently. Him breaking stalemate is towny though

[EgorK]

Sorry, I didn't get that update on math where 2/11 became more than 1 - 8/10

My stupid number aside, my point is that IG is town. Are you debating that actual point?

Sorry, this is just stupid pet peeve of mine of math used incorrectly. I'll try to contain myself in the future

If you're still alive. . .
*Evil VT laughter

Now now. Isn't it actually evil goon laughter?

[Voltaire]

Staying on the topic - I do not remember forming any specific read on him before recently. Him breaking stalemate is towny though

Have you re-read after PPS's flip, EgorK? IG re-created the PPS wagon.

[EgorK]

Staying on the topic - I do not remember forming any specific read on him before recently. Him breaking stalemate is towny though

Have you re-read after PPS's flip, EgorK? IG re-created the PPS wagon.

I am not feeling that masochistic/having enough time to do it yet. Plus I feel very strong about silver so I do not think I need other candidates for today. I think if I would need a reread that would be Hydrad reread

[silverspawn]

Egork, why do you think I'm such a good case? Any reason besides the claim?

[EgorK]

Egork, why do you think I'm such a good case? Any reason besides the claim?

The claim (even before slip) just do not fit in

[Teproc]

Egork, why do you think I'm such a good case? Any reason besides the claim?

The claim (even before slip) just do not fit in

This is not a strong enough case. I know you don't want to, because I don't either, but you need to reread and see if you still think silver is scum after that.

I haven't reread yet and while I do think one of these claims has to be false, it's not enough to justify a lynch.

[Voltaire]

Don't have time to re-read? You need to at least re-read these posts by PPS:

That said, I agree that WW is ICish via the mod mistake. Teproc distilled the WW ICishness so town points to him.

I am not at all following the pacovf angle and think ash is off the rails with this one. Typical ash, null here for now.

Voltaire seems opportunistically voting in search of traction.

Null on everyone else.

Ash and I have a lot in common with regards to our approach to the game. This level of anti town is not scum ash anymore than it would be scum PPS. Leveraging it against him will be  a scum tell for the rest of the game. Unpacked and catching up.

Do you <pacovf> think ash is scum? I don't and I don't because scum ash would not do this today (maybe next game). In fact, I think ash has positioned himself well as town. You seem to think otherwise but refuse to vote towards it because you are using logic that says scum does confusing and anti town things. Or, you are scum and you don't want to be seen as the the one who pushed a wagon on a town flip especially when that town called you out early. You see, by this inference I doubt much that you are scum either. Would you like to argue with that conclusion as well?

Look, I am on vacation with my family with a baby for the first time. That's no excuse but it does explain the difference in my usual play where I am pretty much present all day long.

My perception of how this went is that I pointed out Voltaire seemed the scummiest early game.  Voltaire eventually voted me for it. I was just about to solidify my case with a vote on him when I saw this. I decided that me flipping town showed him to be the scum he is so I joined his wagon on me and then so did teproc. Form that point on I kept seeing everyone favorably lean towards my lynch because no other obvious lynch has surfaced. Pretty sure teproc is town. Realize self voting is generally bad town punishable by lynch and leads to a worthless wagon. Believe in LALL.

Vote: egork

I still think Voltaire is possibly scum but a lot of his play yesterday does look quite towny.

Well, I am not in favor of lynching me. I agree egork is a coin flip and LALL is equally defensible by both alignments thus fairly useless although I feel this particular coin flip is actually 50/50 as opposed to 10:3 or whatever our ratio is this game.

I am not lurking, I am vacationing, there is a big difference, actually. Also, as I understand it the case on me is PPS is crazy town and he started acting crazy so he might be scum trying to look like crazy town which is just talking mush mouth circles.

I am willing to move my vote but not to myself nor to XP. I don't buy the case on XP. I would look in the XP wagon and guess who I find there, yeah I like my vote where it is.

PPS only ever voted for Voltaire, (himself), EgorK, and XP.

[Witherweaver]

I think Silver was a pretty strong D1 candidate for scum.

PPS voting for EgorK could have been bussing if he saw himself going down.. he probably had a hunch he might have ended up getting lynched at that point.

[Voltaire]

ash, what's your read on me?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think Silver was a pretty strong D1 candidate for scum.

PPS voting for EgorK could have been bussing if he saw himself going down.. he probably had a hunch he might have ended up getting lynched at that point.

I agree very much so with the last point. I pointed out something similar in my qt when doing a PPS reread.

Now I just have to keep my games straight.

[EgorK]

Egork, why do you think I'm such a good case? Any reason besides the claim?

The claim (even before slip) just do not fit in

This is not a strong enough case. I know you don't want to, because I don't either, but you need to reread and see if you still think silver is scum after that.

I haven't reread yet and while I do think one of these claims has to be false, it's not enough to justify a lynch.

I would have time to reread on weekend. It is just what I think out of top of my head

[pacovf]

I think I can answer this now, though: given all the claimed investigative roles around (more on that when I finish my reread), a jailkeeper has two chances to "roleblock" an investigation: if it targets the investigator, and if it targets the investigated. And there is no way to tell which of the two happened, right?

That's a variant of the Jailkeeper, most jailkeepers, at least on f.ds, don't do that.

Correct. When I used that kind of jailkeeper in one of my games, I called it an Alien Jailkeeper (just 'cause that's what the wiki says) and made it clear it was different in the PM.

I see. It seems like there is not much advantage in having a jailkeeper over a roleblocker, then. Well, I guess it lets scum ignite people from Baratheon without knowing everybody who was primed beforehand? Or... it lets two scum (jailkeeper + factional kill) target the same person without actually killing it, just so that they can confuse the tracker? Meh.

[Voltaire]

Jailkeeper to "doctor" one of their own when they ignite Baratheon seems to make sense.

[ashersky]

ash, what's your read on me?

You've been playing a strongly pro-town game.  You are not in my lynch pool.

[Voltaire]

ash, what's your read on me?

You've been playing a strongly pro-town game.  You are not in my lynch pool.

And how do you feel about the fact that the setup seems to give town both a Tracker and a Cop? Worrisome, or no cause to be suspicious (of my claim)?

[ashersky]

ash, what's your read on me?

You've been playing a strongly pro-town game.  You are not in my lynch pool.

And how do you feel about the fact that the setup seems to give town both a Tracker and a Cop? Worrisome, or no cause to be suspicious (of my claim)?

I think you haven't claimed everything there is to know about your role, but no, I'm not worried about it.

[Voltaire]

Guys, I'm officially calling it: I'm ignoring "ash is mafia" theories for the rest of today.

I'd like to lynch one of EgorK/silver/Hydrad, in that order, I think. But I'm not ready to vote yet.

[silverspawn]

how does what ash is saying now make him any less scummy?

[Voltaire]

how does what ash is saying now make him any less scummy?

Why do you think ash is scummy? His claim, his play, both?

[Hydrad]

I think there was a post by egork saying I should post my reads here. I've already posted these in the QT but thought I would let you guys know also.

1. silverspawn - nullish (I've had him as a town read for a while. The recent "scumslip" has made me a bit less sure)
2. pacovf - towny
3. ashersky -  - Think hes more town now. (I originally thought he was scummy when the day started but around the time claims started happening but before he claimed I thought he was town)
4. Hydrad - town
5. Witherweaver - still think IC ish. but if lives to last 3 think he might of played all of us
6. Teproc - pretty towny. If scum had control of that power I think they would of killed you or WW but the azadin kill looked like one scum is in stark and knew that killing you or WW would be dangerous. so I have a towny read on him
7. XerxesPraelor - Thought he was scummy until the claims happened. Now think hes pretty towny
8. EgorK - through POE looks kinda scummy. Probably one of my highest lynch wants right now.
9. Robz888 - town read but no reason why. (said this before claims)
10. Ichimaru Gin - As I've said have constantly been changing my opinions on him. So I guess null right now as I can't add it up.
11. pingpongsam - scum!
12. azadin - town D:
13. Voltaire - really towny as I've said before.


I tried to make it so you would understand when I said things if that helps at all. I probably should of just posted these reads in the thread in the first place though.

[silverspawn]

how does what ash is saying now make him any less scummy?

Why do you think ash is scummy? His claim, his play, both?

I don't. I'm still null on him. But I don't see how these comments make him towny, and you suspected him before.

I don't like being the only lynch candidate.

[pacovf]

how does what ash is saying now make him any less scummy?

Why do you think ash is scummy? His claim, his play, both?

I don't. I'm still null on him. But I don't see how these comments make him towny, and you suspected him before.

I don't like being the only lynch candidate.

I like your question to Voltaire (please Voltaire answer), but you are not the only lynch candidate. Hydrad actually has more votes than you. Let's fix that.

Vote: silverspawn

I finished rereading D2 (28 pages!), haven't reread D1 yet. But I remember that my first thought after I saw PPS flip was that it made silverspawn look scummy (I'll make a full case when I've done the D1 reread). And the whole way his claim went down just doesn't look good.

I'm still game for lynching Hydrad though, he was my top lynch candidate yesterday, and Ichi's case on him solidified it. A small argument Ichi didn't make:

I honestly forget if I'm voting PPS or not. vote: PPS just to make sure.

huh thats interesting. I didn't realize you thought PPS was scum...

That was sarcasm. Have you seen Hydrad getting annoyed at anybody else voting?

[pacovf]

Other stuff: too many investigative roles. Waaaaaay too many. A full cop, a 1-shot cop, a tracker, and House Lannister (Even if House Lannister's empowered power wasn't a full investigative power, the fact is, with that many investigative powers flying around, "paying your debts" would be more likely to investigate someone than anything else)? No way. Simply no way. At least one person is lying, possibly even two. Or scum has a redirector...

Frankly, I believe the most likely person to lie is silverspawn. He was super quick to offer to full-claim when Voltaire proposed the idea, and was first to claim when Voltaire kinda forced the massclaim. It could be eager town... or it could be scum that absolutely wants to claim an investigative role before Ashersky, because he knows that he is going to be suspected (he even says so himself). Don't know one way or another, but considering that Voltaire's and Ashersky's claim support each other, if only one person is lying, he is the most likely.

Going down the conspiracy theory lane (this is not going to make me popular)...

 -Ash could be a scum PR that targeted Robz, because Robz. Then Voltaire tracked him, because Ash.
 -Or Ash could be a full cop that targeted Robz, because Robz. Then Voltaire was basically cornered into claiming Tracker that copped  Ash because of simultaneous claims. I say cornered, because he couldn't possibly foresee the way the massclaim was going to end, and really there was nothing else he could have done as scum once he found himself there (Ash had crumbed that he had copped Robz, so it isn't terribly unlikely).
 -Or both could be scum giving each other massive towncred.

I have trouble with the conspiracy theories, because:
-Voltaire has played a very towny game.
-Ashersky would need to have flawlessly faked a PR game since N0, both in the thread and in the QT. Seriously, reread him.
-If both are scum, it superlinks them, and why aren't they dying during the night?

[pacovf]

A couple of questions about the QTs:

-When did XP fullclaim in the QT?
-When did the discussion about saving XP from the D1 lynch start? Who did so?
-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

[Hydrad]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

[pacovf]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

You must realize that this doesn't look too good for you, given the fact that both you and silverspawn are currently the top scumreads, right?

[Hydrad]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

You must realize that this doesn't look too good for you, given the fact that both you and silverspawn are currently the top scumreads, right?

Well volt was going to say something anways or egork or even SS. May as well not try to hide it.

[pacovf]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

You must realize that this doesn't look too good for you, given the fact that both you and silverspawn are currently the top scumreads, right?

Well volt was going to say something anways or egork or even SS. May as well not try to hide it.

I know. I'm discussing what happened in the QT, not your decision to share it here.

Considering that we had agreed that Baratheon's power would not be used, and also the amount of heat you got under because of your defense of it, isn't a bit weird that you would quickly jump on the opportunity to give the power to Volt?

[pacovf]

If I recall correctly, while not everybody agreed that your heavy-handed defense of Baratheon's power made you look scummy, the only person that actually thought that Baratheon's power could be used in a pro-town way was silverspawn. Everybody else was against using it.

With that consensus in mind, I don't understand why you asked Voltaire to use it.

[Hydrad]

I thought Volt was super towny. I am fine with using that power if I think town has control of it.

[silverspawn]

Other stuff: too many investigative roles. Waaaaaay too many. A full cop, a 1-shot cop, a tracker, and House Lannister (Even if House Lannister's empowered power wasn't a full investigative power, the fact is, with that many investigative powers flying around, "paying your debts" would be more likely to investigate someone than anything else)? No way. Simply no way. At least one person is lying, possibly even two. Or scum has a redirector...

Frankly, I believe the most likely person to lie is silverspawn. He was super quick to offer to full-claim when Voltaire proposed the idea, and was first to claim when Voltaire kinda forced the massclaim. It could be eager town... or it could be scum that absolutely wants to claim an investigative role before Ashersky, because he knows that he is going to be suspected (he even says so himself). Don't know one way or another, but considering that Voltaire's and Ashersky's claim support each other, if only one person is lying, he is the most likely.

Going down the conspiracy theory lane (this is not going to make me popular)...

 -Ash could be a scum PR that targeted Robz, because Robz. Then Voltaire tracked him, because Ash.
 -Or Ash could be a full cop that targeted Robz, because Robz. Then Voltaire was basically cornered into claiming Tracker that copped  Ash because of simultaneous claims. I say cornered, because he couldn't possibly foresee the way the massclaim was going to end, and really there was nothing else he could have done as scum once he found himself there (Ash had crumbed that he had copped Robz, so it isn't terribly unlikely).
 -Or both could be scum giving each other massive towncred.

I have trouble with the conspiracy theories, because:
-Voltaire has played a very towny game.
-Ashersky would need to have flawlessly faked a PR game since N0, both in the thread and in the QT. Seriously, reread him.
-If both are scum, it superlinks them, and why aren't they dying during the night?

you are making fair points, and I Have to respect the conclusion that you're drawing. However, I like to point out that, if the setup has too many investigative roles in your opinion, it's not that effective to assume I'm lying. that's only a one-shot cop less, and still lots of investigate roles. A full cop is probably about 3 times as powerful as a one-shot cop. If ash is lying, that makes the setup reasonable.

[pacovf]

Other stuff: too many investigative roles. Waaaaaay too many. A full cop, a 1-shot cop, a tracker, and House Lannister (Even if House Lannister's empowered power wasn't a full investigative power, the fact is, with that many investigative powers flying around, "paying your debts" would be more likely to investigate someone than anything else)? No way. Simply no way. At least one person is lying, possibly even two. Or scum has a redirector...

Frankly, I believe the most likely person to lie is silverspawn. He was super quick to offer to full-claim when Voltaire proposed the idea, and was first to claim when Voltaire kinda forced the massclaim. It could be eager town... or it could be scum that absolutely wants to claim an investigative role before Ashersky, because he knows that he is going to be suspected (he even says so himself). Don't know one way or another, but considering that Voltaire's and Ashersky's claim support each other, if only one person is lying, he is the most likely.

Going down the conspiracy theory lane (this is not going to make me popular)...

 -Ash could be a scum PR that targeted Robz, because Robz. Then Voltaire tracked him, because Ash.
 -Or Ash could be a full cop that targeted Robz, because Robz. Then Voltaire was basically cornered into claiming Tracker that copped  Ash because of simultaneous claims. I say cornered, because he couldn't possibly foresee the way the massclaim was going to end, and really there was nothing else he could have done as scum once he found himself there (Ash had crumbed that he had copped Robz, so it isn't terribly unlikely).
 -Or both could be scum giving each other massive towncred.

I have trouble with the conspiracy theories, because:
-Voltaire has played a very towny game.
-Ashersky would need to have flawlessly faked a PR game since N0, both in the thread and in the QT. Seriously, reread him.
-If both are scum, it superlinks them, and why aren't they dying during the night?

you are making fair points, and I Have to respect the conclusion that you're drawing. However, I like to point out that, if the setup has too many investigative roles in your opinion, it's not that effective to assume I'm lying. that's only a one-shot cop less, and still lots of investigate roles. A full cop is probably about 3 times as powerful as a one-shot cop. If ash is lying, that makes the setup reasonable.

Certainly, but you will also agree that, if we have to mislynch someone, I would rather mislynch the 1-shot cop. A cop, a tracker, and House Lannister are not impossible if mafia has suitable PRs (JoaT, Godfather, Redirector, etc?) anyway.

Plus, Ash wasn't proposing alternative lynches to PPS up until the last second of D1... you, on the other hand, were.

[silverspawn]

The PPS case seemed weak to me. I tried pretty hard to stop it from happening.

[pacovf]

By voting for XP after Robz and WW told you not to?

[silverspawn]

By voting for XP after Robz and WW told you not to?

Why exactly should I do what Robz is telling me?

[pacovf]

Oh come on.

Hey guys, look. WW and I talked about this in our QT, and we don't want XP lynched. WW can corroborate when he is around, but I'm worried about XP getting lynched at some random time when neither him nor me are.

You have no reason to listen to me obviously, but you should listen to WW, who remains a virtual IC. XP is off the table; find a different lynch.

I'll vote: Pacovf

of course you do

can we really not lynch XP? and why?

'Cause I said so!

I'm not sure why any of you think Robz would be making stuff up here; that would be silly.

I don't know why you even try painting it as "what Robz is telling me".

[silverspawn]

that's what it is. well, it wasn't just Robz, if that's what you mean. It was Robz and WW.

But you have it right here:

'Cause I said so!

They just came and said, "we're not doing XP". I didn't like that.

[Voltaire]

how does what ash is saying now make him any less scummy?

Why do you think ash is scummy? His claim, his play, both?

I don't. I'm still null on him. But I don't see how these comments make him towny, and you suspected him before.

I don't like being the only lynch candidate.

Ash's comments didn't make him more town/less scum directly. I'd been leaning towards treating ash as town for today and basically he failed to set off any "red flags" with his answers, so I'm going forward with that.

And as been pointed out, you are so not the only lynch candidate.

[Voltaire]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

This is accurate. It wasn't a terribly lengthy debate.

I was super-psyched to get to be a Strongman Tracker.

[Voltaire]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

You must realize that this doesn't look too good for you, given the fact that both you and silverspawn are currently the top scumreads, right?

Why?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Just checking in. pacovf seems pretty townie to me.

Interesting silver framing himself as the only lynch of today. It kind of makes me want to lynch him more. Although I'm still sticking with Hydrad for now. I really feel like I've caught scum there.

I am concerned a little bit about Teproc though. Robz posted earlier regarding whether Teproc has done anything to achieve similar IC-ish status and I don't remember anyone responding to it.

[Witherweaver]

Volt posted his claim in the QT, before Ash claimed.  So he either guessed really well, or it was true, or they're both scum.

I think the last one is really unlikely.

[Witherweaver]

The PPS case seemed weak to me. I tried pretty hard to stop it from happening.

This is weird.  Wasn't it this very game where you made a point about being a little unsure of yourself and not so confident in Mafia yet?  But you were so sure of PPS to try to sway the lynch?

[Voltaire]

Teproc was the one who was on the alternative wagon to PPS when they were both at L-2. I asked both him and WW to convince me which wagon I should join, and ended up going for PPS.

Though there are a lot of moments that make me go town!Teproc, that's the one I give the most weight.

[Robz888]

So, who we lynching?

[Voltaire]

So, who we lynching?

It would be great if you could help provide some input. You are an IC* for realz.

General consensus is the pool should be off-wagon (ash/Hydrad/EgorK/silver). I think everyone is giving ash a pass for his claim. That means Hydrad, EgorK, silver.

So, any input you have on those three would be great.

[Voltaire]

Teproc was the one who was on the alternative wagon to PPS when they were both at L-2. I asked both him and WW to convince me which wagon I should join, and ended up going for PPS.

Though there are a lot of moments that make me go town!Teproc, that's the one I give the most weight.

I'm sorry, I said that wrong. Teproc was ON PPS when there was an alternative wagon.

[ashersky]

So, who we lynching?

It would be great if you could help provide some input. You are an IC* for realz.

General consensus is the pool should be off-wagon (ash/Hydrad/EgorK/silver). I think everyone is giving ash a pass for his claim. That means Hydrad, EgorK, silver.

So, any input you have on those three would be great.

We could order the three, like you did, see where that gets us.

I'd go silver > Hydrad > EgorK

[Robz888]

So, who we lynching?

It would be great if you could help provide some input. You are an IC* for realz.

General consensus is the pool should be off-wagon (ash/Hydrad/EgorK/silver). I think everyone is giving ash a pass for his claim. That means Hydrad, EgorK, silver.

So, any input you have on those three would be great.

I have given ash a pass as well. I am most strongly in favor of Hydrad. I'm not so sure about silverspawn, hi actions kinda read town to me. Egork I have almost no read on whatsoever.

[Robz888]

Hydrad >>>>>>>>> Egork > Silverspawn

[Voltaire]

Any thought on the setup re: claims? Cop, Tracker, 1-shot Cop as town's PRs? (with XP as a negative-utility VT)

I do not have a fully-formed opinion myself on this area.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Teproc was the one who was on the alternative wagon to PPS when they were both at L-2. I asked both him and WW to convince me which wagon I should join, and ended up going for PPS.

Though there are a lot of moments that make me go town!Teproc, that's the one I give the most weight.

I'm sorry, I said that wrong. Teproc was ON PPS when there was an alternative wagon.

Ok thanks. That does make him pretty townie and helps alleviate a little of my paranoia. Especially with us giving him the House power and everything last night, I was feeling a little concerned.

Maybe things are just that easy with all these near-IC's running around.

PPE: Robz and I have same preferences. Let's lynch Hydrad now please.

[Robz888]

Any thought on the setup re: claims? Cop, Tracker, 1-shot Cop as town's PRs? (with XP as a negative-utility VT)

I do not have a fully-formed opinion myself on this area.

It's hard too say... town does seem a bit stacked. But, that could be the case.

Right now my town reads are the strongest thing. I absolutely, absolutely, absolutely believe that you, ashersky, and WW are not mafia. I also highly doubt XP is mafia. I believe the claims, with the possible exception of Silverspawn.

[Witherweaver]

I would be interested in some legitimate Robz reads.

[Witherweaver]

Well I wrote that before reading Robz' post.  But some, like, analysis, maybe some quotes and stuff would be cool.

[Robz888]

I would be interested in some legitimate Robz reads.

I... I just gave them? I've given them a couple times now.

[Witherweaver]

I would be interested in some legitimate Robz reads.

I... I just gave them? I've given them a couple times now.

Yeah I don't PPE sometimes.

[silverspawn]

Yeah I don't PPE sometimes

shame on you

[Voltaire]

Though Hydrad is my #3 preference, I'll still be happy with his lynch.

I think we need a plan for tonight, though. Assuming a lynch of Hydrad, I say

1. myself > Targ (locks me in to Targ) OR myself > houseless (locks me in as houseless) OR myself = Baratheon (lets me see if people don't leave/join, but lets the House remain. Not sure why we'd do that. Though I could move later)
2. All Baratheons (silver, EgorK) > Stark (to give Stark Hand of the King so they're strongman)

This strongmans the Doctor, leaves myself and ash as doc targets for WIFOM, and restricts myself very little (by being unable to track the Targs, all strong town reads). Ash can still target anyone.

Anyone not following the plan is obv!scum. It allows scum!ash to go to Baratheon and not be noticed unless I stay in Baratheon. I suppose scum could go to Baratheon and then attempt to kill me even if I stay and I can't rat them out, but then they're unaccounted for, so. Also, if we ever get concerned on ash we could make him move again under threat of lynch to test if he has moves (but what are the odds ash follows that plan, gah).

I think this makes sense, anybody think we should do anything different?

[silverspawn]

so, it seems like I'm not getting lynched after all. that's good. with a calmer observation, hydrad's jump on my wagon could easily be town!hydrad trying to make up a reason to get me lynched, purely for self-preservation. in fact, that's probably what happened.

but IG's case on him was pretty good. also, it seems to be him or me, so I'll leave my vote where it is.

Or Egork. I'll also do Egork. He isn't lurking as hard anymore, but I'm still null on him. it's an okay lynch in our position.

[Witherweaver]

I think I'm okay with that.  I'm not tooooo worried about the Ash->Baratheon thing.  And pryo is not the most efficient way to kill people.. have to prime, hope that target doesn't get killed or lynched, then ignite.  If we're afraid of getting ignited we can consider lynching Ash.

Anyone that's houseless other than Ash is autoscum.

You coming to Targ means you can't Track us, but if we believe Ash, then Robz is town.  I'm town, and I believe XP is.  So, not the biggest risk. 

[Voltaire]

Is there a compelling reason for me to move? Would people trust me if I stayed in Baratheon? Or do we need to attempt to kill it tonight. That's mainly why I was planning on moving, but I guess I could save the movement? Honestly, I'm not certain on the best call here.

[Witherweaver]

Is there a compelling reason for me to move? Would people trust me if I stayed in Baratheon? Or do we need to attempt to kill it tonight. That's mainly why I was planning on moving, but I guess I could save the movement? Honestly, I'm not certain on the best call here.

Well, killing it prevents anyone else from moving there.  Small problem if in the future we can't maintain Town control of a House, and scum can lie about whether all their members are in there, and send one to Baratheon if you move out or are killed. 

[ashersky]

Any thought on the setup re: claims? Cop, Tracker, 1-shot Cop as town's PRs? (with XP as a negative-utility VT)

I do not have a fully-formed opinion myself on this area.

It's hard too say... town does seem a bit stacked. But, that could be the case.

I've stated before I think Silver is lying.  Taking that out, Cop + Tracker isn't crazy at all.  It happens a lot.  The game would have been balanced at the outset, taking into account scum PRs and House PR interactions -- so even if with the current mass claim it seems stacked for town, well scum didn't claim their real powers for us, and we smacked one of their strongest on D1.

If scum got control of any of the houses on any night, that significantly raises their power level (by removing town power).  I'm not concerned with the setup seeming "off" given I'm positive Silver is lying about being a 1-Shot Cop.

[Voltaire]

Is there a compelling reason for me to move? Would people trust me if I stayed in Baratheon? Or do we need to attempt to kill it tonight. That's mainly why I was planning on moving, but I guess I could save the movement? Honestly, I'm not certain on the best call here.

Well, killing it prevents anyone else from moving there.  Small problem if in the future we can't maintain Town control of a House, and scum can lie about whether all their members are in there, and send one to Baratheon if you move out or are killed.

Fair point. I guess I should go to Targ just because then I'm helping town control a House? For crazy end-game situations where we've somehow done terribly?

[silverspawn]

to be perfectly honest, i'm not really motivated anymore for this game. we're in a great spot, town has a huge amount of PR, and with the follow the cop strat, the setup seems to be broken anyway. and for some reason I have this stupid PR that'll get me killed. by the way, who even said that all cops are sane here? or are non-sane cops only a thing in bastard? I think the wiki said, only random results are considered bastard. maybe ash is just a naive cop, and that's why we have so much power?

anyway, my point is that I'm not really invested enough to think much about the setup, so i'll probably not contribute there. tell me where I'll move, and if I survive today, I'll move there. Tomorrow you'll lynch me anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference. I probably should fight more, but eh we'll likely win anyway. it's not like one wrong lynch is going to cost us the game, after we got scum day 1. and even if we don't win, I don't see me convincing anyone anymore. reread my day1, if you still want to lynch me, go ahead. i'll do hydrad or egork, but if that doesn't work, it's fine.

[Voltaire]

Cops are sane here unless stated otherwise. And even in Bastard I don't know if we've ever done alt-sanity Cops.

This seems a big stretch.

[ashersky]

Is there a compelling reason for me to move? Would people trust me if I stayed in Baratheon? Or do we need to attempt to kill it tonight. That's mainly why I was planning on moving, but I guess I could save the movement? Honestly, I'm not certain on the best call here.

I prefer that the house arsonist vig thing not exist anymore, as I think it can only be anti-town.  As has been mentioned, at best it's a killing power in the hands of a player of unknown alignment targeting other players of unknown alignment.  At worst, it's scum priming town.

I think it's safe to abandon.  There will be someone left alive in each house no matter what, so they can report back membership to find who didn't follow the plan.  If you fear that I grabbed Baratheon, there's always the moves test, as I only have one move left since becoming houseless.

There's 50% chance I'm dead tomorrow anyway, as scum needs to kill one of us.  If they leave us both alive for wifom, awesome.

[ashersky]

This seems a big stretch.

It also seems like a super-scummy ATE.

[Voltaire]

This seems a big stretch.

It also seems like a super-scummy ATE.

Agreed. At a time when it looks like we're back to lynching Hydrad over him.

Also, I'm going to Targ based on advice from WW/ash, everyone.

[Robz888]

I like Voltaire's plan. Volt, come on over to Targ.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Silverspawn

I think it's best.

[Witherweaver]

I like Voltaire's plan. Volt, come on over to Targ.

Come to the dark side.  We have cookies.

[Voltaire]

silver and EgorK, you need to move to House Stark.

[Voltaire]

I like Voltaire's plan. Volt, come on over to Targ.

Come to the dark side.  We have cookies.

Also vote: silver as I prefer that over Hydrad.

[ashersky]

Hydrad (2): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn
silverspawn (5): ashersky, EgorK, pacovf, ww, voltaire
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (3): Hydrad, Robz888, Teproc




Volt, that is L-1, FYI.

[ashersky]

He's already claimed, of course, and his last post seemed pretty defeatist.

I'm good with a hammer.

[ashersky]

Also, silver?  This is where you self-hammer if you are scum.

[Voltaire]

Volt, that is L-1, FYI.

Whoops, thought more people were on Hydrad.

Though I guess it doesn't really matter.

[Voltaire]

unvote

NO LYNCH UNTIL EGORK CONFIRMS HIS MOVE

Forgot about that!

[silverspawn]

Also, silver?  This is where you self-hammer if you are scum.

I meant what I said when I said it's fine. but there is no reason to self hammer, that doesn't help anyone.

[Voltaire]

Geez, and Hydrad too, since he's not the lynch.

HYDRAD GO TO STARK

[silverspawn]

I'd like to point out that scum!me would have hammered there to prevent house movements. does this convince anyone?

I'm also slightly offended that you don't even take the time to reread day1, not gonna lie.

[Voltaire]

I'd like to point out that scum!me would have hammered there to prevent house movements. does this convince anyone?

I'm also slightly offended that you don't even take the time to reread day1, not gonna lie.

It would be more convincing if you'd had a vote in the intervening moments.

But yes, it's actually interesting.

[Voltaire]

*post, not vote

[ashersky]

Well, there's still twilight, given we know faust is asleep, to work out house moves.

But there is a need for the orders to be placed, I think.

[ashersky]

I'd like to point out that scum!me would have hammered there to prevent house movements. does this convince anyone?

I'm also slightly offended that you don't even take the time to reread day1, not gonna lie.

It would be more convincing if you'd had a vote in the intervening moments.

But yes, it's actually interesting.

In a vacuum it's interesting.  Or as a discussion point.  But generally, a "see, if I was scum, I would have just done X right there, but I didn't" argument isn't very strong.

[Voltaire]

But in a vacuum, his claim is way better than your claim.

Which is why I'm interested in collecting all the little pieces.

[Twistedarcher]

 Vote Count 2.5

Hydrad (2): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn,
silverspawn (4): ashersky, EgorK, Pacovf, Witherweaver
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (4): Hydrad, Robz888, Voltaire, Teproc


With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[Witherweaver]

I'd like to point out that scum!me would have hammered there to prevent house movements. does this convince anyone?

I'm also slightly offended that you don't even take the time to reread day1, not gonna lie.

What do you expect people to find in Day 1?  I actually wanted (or did) vote you a few times; I think Volt talked me out of it.

[Witherweaver]

But yes, we have four days, we don't have to rush it.

[Voltaire]

I'd like to point out that scum!me would have hammered there to prevent house movements. does this convince anyone?

I'm also slightly offended that you don't even take the time to reread day1, not gonna lie.

What do you expect people to find in Day 1?  I actually wanted (or did) vote you a few times; I think Volt talked me out of it.

I found silver scummy off-and-on D1 too.

[silverspawn]

by the way guys, i slipped town with my second post day 1. i noticed this during the night when I was doing some rereads, but didn't mention it for obvious reasons. now i might aswell.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11681.msg418640#msg418640

[Voltaire]

What, the "can scum talk during the day" thing?

[ashersky]

What, the "can scum talk during the day" thing?

I fully expect the 12th post in the scum QT to be "Hey silver, you should play up your newbie status by asking a really obvious question like can scum talk during the day or something."

[Voltaire]

Ash, could you just, like, vote me, or claim you're really a Mafia Rolecop, or argue we should prime & ignite Robz or something? You being reasonable is creeping me out.

[ashersky]

Ash, could you just, like, vote me, or claim you're really a Mafia Rolecop, or argue we should prime & ignite Robz or something? You being reasonable is creeping me out.

Or self-vote.  I'm guessing that's like a toasty blanket out of the dryer on a cold winter morning for you.

[Voltaire]

Ash, could you just, like, vote me, or claim you're really a Mafia Rolecop, or argue we should prime & ignite Robz or something? You being reasonable is creeping me out.

Or self-vote.  I'm guessing that's like a toasty blanket out of the dryer on a cold winter morning for you.

With a cup of hot chocolate full of slightly-melted marshmallows.

[Witherweaver]

Silver reread:

#352: Checks in, didn't have internet before

#357: Setup talk, claims house and flavor, says:

The WW slip is kind of... unfortunate. Or well, it's fortunate for our chances, but it bothers me because it's an unfair advantage. I know for sure that it would bother me A LOT if i was scum. but well, mistakes happen. We should still use it. And there is an obvious opportunity for that:

Talks about me moving to Baratheon to have an IC control it.  Notably, he has immediately accepted I'm an IC.  Also says:

random question: can mafia talk during the day aswell? I always thought they could, but according to a sample pm from another setup, they can't. but I also recall talking about "directed" play, which is only possible if they can.

#360: Discusses Ash/Pacovf.  Misunderstands one of the points but is careful not to use it to call Pacovf scummy.

#365, #366, #357: Talks about quoting QT's

#397: Flavor talk

#398: Pushes Ash to make a more detailed case against Pac.

#404: Flavor talk

#419: Questions houseless theory

#422: Town read on Teproc

#426: Repeat of #419

#441: Questions me on Ash

#455: General Mafia theory

#457: Finds Ash's play inspiring (interesting, I said something much the same when I was Ash's partner in my first scum game)

#463: Funny graph

#501: Responds to Teproc but I don't feel like tracking down the full conversation.. more on general Mafia theory I think

#502: Clarifies Lannister condition

#504: Wants a summary of who is in what house and powers

#506: Makes said summary

#507, 508: About the summary

#536: First post that can be considered a read, I think:

well, everyone seems to shrug ash's suspicions off as nonsense. I'm not so sure about it, but I'm also not strongly pro P lynch, so I'll just leave it at that.

I don't really get the Hydrad case. he strikes me as pretty innocent

#537: Says he hasn't posted in Lannister QT

#542: Responds to Pacovf when asked who he wants to lynch:

don't really have a strong target yet. I'll probably do some rereads, but we're not really in a rush. 4 days left to the deadline.

#581: Talks about setup, votes EgorK:

About the lynch - we could do Egork. that's not the worst thing in the world. The problem is though, he also lurks as town. If anything, he's probably more active as scum. But still, you can't let lurkers lurk forever

I'll vote:Egork for now. But if anyone presents a strong case (or if I pick something up on a reread), i'll switch.

#588: Says he's voting EgorK to get him to post more

#593: More theory talk

#597: Talks about voting, explaining more about voting EgorK I think

#601: More theory talk

#607: Says:

No, I never said it was. I said it's the point of the vote. My top priority is to appear towny. My strategy for that is, write what I think, always answer quickly to questions, don't think too long between conversations. As long as I don't have anything to cover up, it seems the best to just play honest and spontanious.

I think Egork is an alright lynch, but not a very good one. So that's what I wrote.

#611, #613, #614, #620, #623: More on theory

#626: Theory, says we don't know how many scum are in this game

#628: More theory

#638: House overview post

#639, #646: More theory

#648: Some small response, I think to the theory discussions

#652, #657, #662, #671: Theory,

#673: Corrects typos

#689, #695, #702, #711: Theory

#723: Asks someone to add some quotes for whatever they were saying.  Hard to trace everything because Silver doesn't leave the link and author in his quotes

#727: Questions someone saying some case is not bad

#767: A somewhat flippant remark about both Ash and Pac being town:

nice, then we can play 6/3 at the start of day 3. good plan.

Note that at this point, Silver seems to only have town reads, excepting the EgorK thing.

#772: Explains #767.  Note that here and there he's assuming three scum where it was unknown before.

#776: Claims his town read on Pac is not that strong


--------------------------------------------------------------

Okay I'm taking a break.  Still quite a bit to go.

PPE: 6, did not read.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, when I said "theory" up there, it meant setup discussion, strategy, etc.  Or theory on how to play mafia.. I probably should have used "setup" instead for most cases.. talk about us changing house, powers, claims, etc.

[Witherweaver]

by the way guys, i slipped town with my second post day 1. i noticed this during the night when I was doing some rereads, but didn't mention it for obvious reasons. now i might aswell.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11681.msg418640#msg418640

You have to realize, from our perspective, that's just the same as "hey guys, I constructed a town slip for you way back in the beginning".

[Robz888]

Ash, could you just, like, vote me, or claim you're really a Mafia Rolecop, or argue we should prime & ignite Robz or something? You being reasonable is creeping me out.

+1

[Robz888]

I do really think Silverspawn is not the right lynch right now, and likely to be town. Way more likely than Hydrad.

[ashersky]

I do really think Silverspawn is not the right lynch right now, and likely to be town. Way more likely than Hydrad.

Is that a gut read?

I think since his claim, he's just been scummier than anyone else in the game.  Reactions, appeals to emotion, hail mary defenses.  Just not a good place.

Whomever isn't lynched is at a large risk of being investigated by someone, so we're in good shape either way, but I really think our best chance of lynching scum today is Silver (or pacovf, but he's not in the pool today).

[Ichimaru Gin]

I do really think Silverspawn is not the right lynch right now, and likely to be town. Way more likely than Hydrad.

Is that a gut read?

I think since his claim, he's just been scummier than anyone else in the game.  Reactions, appeals to emotion, hail mary defenses.  Just not a good place.

Whomever isn't lynched is at a large risk of being investigated by someone, so we're in good shape either way, but I really think our best chance of lynching scum today is Silver (or pacovf, but he's not in the pool today).

I do find it interesting that he seemed to have given up on not being lynched today--but later continued to defend himself (with his "town slip" and such. That makes me feel scummier about him.

So we are waiting to lynch until egorK shows up and agrees to Volt's plan though right?

[Robz888]

I do really think Silverspawn is not the right lynch right now, and likely to be town. Way more likely than Hydrad.

Is that a gut read?

I think since his claim, he's just been scummier than anyone else in the game.  Reactions, appeals to emotion, hail mary defenses.  Just not a good place.

Whomever isn't lynched is at a large risk of being investigated by someone, so we're in good shape either way, but I really think our best chance of lynching scum today is Silver (or pacovf, but he's not in the pool today).

Right. I mean I'm not like 100% on this, and we are pretty good either way. But this looks like town flailing to me. Not exactly gut, and I've never actually seen scum Silverspawn yet, but this doesn't scream scum to me, I guess.

[ashersky]

Right. I mean I'm not like 100% on this, and we are pretty good either way. But this looks like town flailing to me. Not exactly gut, and I've never actually seen scum Silverspawn yet, but this doesn't scream scum to me, I guess.

I can see your point, but the funny thing is, to me it looks like badly faked town flailing.

Like, imagine a person flailing their arms around like a wildman, or one of those balloon dudes that call your attention to used car lots.  Now imagine Jerry Seinfeld impersonating that balloon dude with his usual lack of enthusiasm and a straight face.  Just like "Weeee.  Weeee.  Look at my arms flail.  Weeee."  Really deadpan and funny.  And fake.

That's how I imagine Silver's currently flailing to be.

[EgorK]

PM for move sent, not confirmed yet

Also please consider timezones if younthink I am still lurking

[Hydrad]

I have also just sent a PM going to house stark.

[Hydrad]

Also I'm just going to be honest here. I think my views on silver are slightly skewed because at this point its looking like its me vs him. Because at this point hes looking pretty scummy to me but I can't tell if thats because I need him lynched to live or because hes actually scummy.

[ashersky]

Also I'm just going to be honest here. I think my views on silver are slightly skewed because at this point its looking like its me vs him. Because at this point hes looking pretty scummy to me but I can't tell if thats because I need him lynched to live or because hes actually scummy.

That you point this out and have yet to vote for him is...interesting.  Afraid to bus a partner with the game in such a sorry state for you?  Or just being thoughtful?

[Hydrad]

oh I thought I was voting him already. I'm going to go back and check

[Hydrad]

Ok Vote: silver This also brings him to L-1.

[Hydrad]

also you think me and SS are partners? I feel like there is a really low chance of that.

One more thing for you to consider. Is it better for town if whoever lives of either me or SS that you target someone else with your cop? Because i'm just not sure whats best for town here. If you target me you get to find out who is scum and then we have to lynch someone randomly again. If you target someone else you either find they are scum or lynch me? I guess they are almost the same for you guys but for me we have a better shot of actually winning the game if you target someone else I think. maybe my logic is flawed though.

[Hydrad]

also you think me and SS are partners? I feel like there is a really low chance of that.

One more thing for you to consider. Is it better for town if whoever lives of either me or SS that you target someone else with your cop? Because i'm just not sure whats best for town here. If you target me you get to find out who is scum and then we have to lynch someone randomly again. If you target someone else you either find they are scum or lynch me? I guess they are almost the same for you guys but for me we have a better shot of actually winning the game if you target someone else I think. maybe my logic is flawed though.

Wow rereading this I don't think anyones going to understand what I mean.

basically if you target me you get a IC but we still have to find scum. If you target someone else you have a chance of actually finding scum with that cop shot instead of just making me a IC.

hopefully that makes more sense.

Also I realize that if asher targets someone who is town and its not me that I'm probably getting lynched. I'm ok with that because we will still have a IC at the end of the day.

[ashersky]

This is called reverse psychologically soft claiming godfather.

[Hydrad]

This is called reverse psychologically soft claiming godfather.

uh ok? basically I just wanted to say I think the best play here is you copping someone else and if they are town lynch me. I don't think thats a godfather claim?

[Robz888]

Vote: Hydrad

[Hydrad]

Vote: Hydrad

Ya i really need to just stop talking sometimes I think.

[Teproc]

The more silver talks, the more I like his lynch.

I'm fine with both silver and Hydrad. The silver lynch does have the advantage of giving us an actual IC if he's mislynched, worth noting.

[silverspawn]

I do find it interesting that he seemed to have given up on not being lynched today-

i feel i owe it to the game when I sign up to at least try

that said, i'm still not very upset about my lynch anymore. for some reason the fact that I have given up seems to convince people that im scum. i have no idea why, but it seems like my chances aren't growing. if it was purely up to me, I would just self hammer, but I'm not gonna do that. I'll try at least, maybe someone is changing his mind.

oh yea and i've also requested to be moved.

[pacovf]

-How did the discussion to make Voltaire Hand of the King go? This one really confuses me.

I can answer this one.

Basically we all got into the QT and I said something pretty similar to this

"uh... so I know that people decided to not use our power. But personally I would be ok with Volt using the power if everyone else agrees"

Volt a bit later kinda states the same thing saying hes ok with someone using that hand of the king power.

azadin Votes himself while he thinks about it not realizing votes are final. Then both me and SS vote Volt and he gets the power.

You must realize that this doesn't look too good for you, given the fact that both you and silverspawn are currently the top scumreads, right?

Why?

If all scum is in Baratheon, they absolutely want someone to get primed.

Basically there were all sort of alarms ringing in my head when you said that you got elected Hand of the King in Baratheon, because Baratheon's power seems so easily abusable by scum, and because most people were vocally against using it, and advocated for everyone to self-vote, to be sure that nobody got to use it. Of course, I calmed down when you claim investigative role, because then it makes sense for you to want to be strongman.
But, the people voting for you still didn't know that you had an investigative role, so they decided to give you the arsonist power despite the general consensus. A simple explanation is that all scum is in Baratheon, since they are guaranteed a mis-vig (is that a term) if you prime someone.

So, Hydrad being the first to give the idea of making Voltaire Hand of the King, and silverspawn agreeing with it, doesn't look too good for them. Of course, it fits with their professed narrative of believing that Baratheon gives "a chance to fight scum for town", as they both stated during D1, but I didn't like that narrative then, and I still don't like it now.

This is not the only reason I would be willing to vote either, since interactions with PPS alone are pretty damning, but it's not something that looks good anyway.

[faust]

Vote Count 2.6

Hydrad (3): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn, Robz888
silverspawn (5): ashersky, EgorK, pacovf, Witherweaver, Hydrad
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (2): Teproc,Voltaire


With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

[EgorK]

Just FYI - I've got my move to Stark confirmed

[pacovf]

We still need Hydrad to go to Stark too, right?

Please nobody hammer until we get Hydrad's confirmation.

Actually, unvote while we wait.

[pacovf]

Nevermind, he says he has sent the PM already.

Vote: silverspawn. Back to L-1.

[pacovf]

Voltaire, you are moving to Targaryen, right? Have you sent your PM already?

[ashersky]

We still need Hydrad to go to Stark too, right?

Please nobody hammer until we get Hydrad's confirmation.

Actually, unvote while we wait.

He claimed to have asked.  If he's lying, he'll claim to have received confirmation.  Either way, it'll be clear if he doesn't end up there.

Faust is online so I think it is safe to assume he's got all changes.

I'm wary of your unvote.  No one else suspects you AT ALL, which is also very worrisome.



PPE -- well...that's quite acquitting of this post.

[Teproc]

What makes you say no one suspects pacovf at all ash ?

He's not a lynch today because there are better options, but he'll probably be in my lynch pool tomorrow.

[ashersky]

What makes you say no one suspects pacovf at all ash ?

He's not a lynch today because there are better options, but he'll probably be in my lynch pool tomorrow.

I feel like I've seen a lot of town reads expressed, but I'm the only one with a scum read.  Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I can't recall any other players stating it.

[Witherweaver]

Hydrad climbing up the scum ladder as if it were a race.  Does town ever use the phrase "best for town"?

[Witherweaver]

The more silver talks, the more I like his lynch.

I'm fine with both silver and Hydrad. The silver lynch does have the advantage of giving us an actual IC if he's mislynched, worth noting.

That's actually a good point.  (As long as there is only one faction, but probably true.) Though, we don't really expect scum!Silver would give an innocent result on his partner here.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, you are moving to Targaryen, right? Have you sent your PM already?

Yes, and it's confirmed.

I'd rather lynch EgorK in the mood I'm in but will go along with whatever. I'm going to change my mind constantly and you should probably ignore me.

[ashersky]

Voltaire, you are moving to Targaryen, right? Have you sent your PM already?

Yes, and it's confirmed.

I'd rather lynch EgorK in the mood I'm in but will go along with whatever. I'm going to change my mind constantly and you should probably ignore me.

Just hammer Silver, I say.

[Voltaire]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

[ashersky]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

I think it'd be good to have you on-wagon.

[Teproc]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

I think it'd be good to have you on-wagon.

Why ?

I could hammer silver. We have everything we need to as far as moves go right ?

[pacovf]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

I think it'd be good to have you on-wagon.

Why ?

I could hammer silver. We have everything we need to as far as moves go right ?

Yes, all the moves are done. I am ok with a silver lynch now, but I would rather give him one last chance to defend himself/state his reads/whatever he wants to do.

I'd rather lynch EgorK in the mood I'm in but will go along with whatever. I'm going to change my mind constantly and you should probably ignore me.

This doesn't sound very good. Are you alright? I hope you start feeling better later 

[Witherweaver]

I haven't finished noting all the Day 1 Silver posts.  Not sure if anyone but Silver was actually interested in that.

What I noticed so far was that he was always very present, but barely talking about things like reads.  He's not alone in this, though.  (I think I criticized---or at least noted to myself---Pacovf doing the same thing.)  He may have more content in the posts I haven't gotten to yet.

[pacovf]

I haven't finished noting all the Day 1 Silver posts.  Not sure if anyone but Silver was actually interested in that.

Right, do finish that when you have the time. It was mostly confirming what I remembered of him, but maybe other people want to disagree.

(I think I criticized---or at least noted to myself---Pacovf doing the same thing.)

You did say that, but it was quite early in D1, while we were still working on the setup. Do you still think that I haven't talked much about reads and the like?

[ashersky]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

I think it'd be good to have you on-wagon.

Why ?

I could hammer silver. We have everything we need to as far as moves go right ?

You work as well.  I'm just thinking in terms of my wagon analysis system.  It's good to have strong town reads on wagon.

[Teproc]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

I think it'd be good to have you on-wagon.

Why ?

I could hammer silver. We have everything we need to as far as moves go right ?

You work as well.  I'm just thinking in terms of my wagon analysis system.  It's good to have strong town reads on wagon.

It's weird because I think the exact opposite. Well I guess I agree it's better to have town reads on wagon for a mislynch, but not for a succesful lynch.

[ashersky]

Leaving for the day. Will check in tonight (~12 hours or so). I don't care if you lynch one of the three of them.

I think it'd be good to have you on-wagon.

Why ?

I could hammer silver. We have everything we need to as far as moves go right ?

You work as well.  I'm just thinking in terms of my wagon analysis system.  It's good to have strong town reads on wagon.

It's weird because I think the exact opposite. Well I guess I agree it's better to have town reads on wagon for a mislynch, but not for a succesful lynch.

I guess it's not on-wagon so much as grouped together that is important.  If I have two sets of players, and I can reduce the viable lynches in one of those groups by removing strong town reads, that makes it easier to scumhunt with the group.

On-wagon on a mislynch and off-wagon on a scum lynch make sense, which I think is what your point is.  But looking at the wagon, I think it's definitely town-driven, and most town reads are on it.  The big exception is Robz, who is conf!town (barring godfather, etc.).

[Witherweaver]

I haven't finished noting all the Day 1 Silver posts.  Not sure if anyone but Silver was actually interested in that.

Right, do finish that when you have the time. It was mostly confirming what I remembered of him, but maybe other people want to disagree.

(I think I criticized---or at least noted to myself---Pacovf doing the same thing.)

You did say that, but it was quite early in D1, while we were still working on the setup. Do you still think that I haven't talked much about reads and the like?

I'm actually not sure.  I'd have to go back.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So who are we going to lynch?

I'm already voting Hydrad and he is my preference, but is silver at L-1 now?

Should I hammer?

[Hydrad]

It looks like all the moves have happened. So its up to you really.

[silverspawn]

I'm fine with both silver and Hydrad. The silver lynch does have the advantage of giving us an actual IC if he's mislynched, worth noting.

that's a good point. it makes me feel even better about my lynch.

i'm totally going to give you an innocent result on my partner if he's XP and I'm scum. XP is the logical target, and I'm hardly going to claim that he's mafia.

[pacovf]

silverspawn, is there anything you want to share in case you do get lynched? Reads?

[silverspawn]

my strongest town read got lynched. I wouldn't treat Robz/ash as IC's. I think IG is really towny. I'd investigate/lynch Egork unless a good reason not to comes up. that's all.

[Ichimaru Gin]

my strongest town read got lynched. I wouldn't treat Robz/ash as IC's. I think IG is really towny. I'd investigate/lynch Egork unless a good reason not to comes up. that's all.

damn it. Why'd you have to have such townie reads?

Please everyone, let's kill Hydrad.

[Witherweaver]

Town read on Ichi => Town

Scum read on Ichi => Scum

[pacovf]

Did you just say that PPS was your strongest townread? 

So, we can wait until WW finishes his reread. Unless he comes up with something new, which I think unlikely, I don't see any reason not to lynch silverspawn afterwards.

PPE: wuh? How are they townie?

[Witherweaver]

my strongest town read got lynched. I wouldn't treat Robz/ash as IC's. I think IG is really towny. I'd investigate/lynch Egork unless a good reason not to comes up. that's all.

How could PPS have possibly been your strongest town read with how Volt and Teproc were playing?  Even ignoring the whole thing with me.  (You claimed to assume I was an IC yesterday, by the way.)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Town read on Ichi => Town

Scum read on Ichi => Scum

I'm sorry. What can I say? When I'm town, OMGUS is my way of catching scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

*Qualifier

Most of the time. My best cases are actually non-OMGUS ironically.

[Witherweaver]

I'd venture to say OMGUS has the same chance of hitting scum as rolling a fair die.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd venture to say OMGUS has the same chance of hitting scum as rolling a fair die.

It's worked for me so far. Only now it probably won't since scum will just buddy me for the win.

[Witherweaver]

I'd venture to say OMGUS has the same chance of hitting scum as rolling a fair die.

It's worked for me so far. Only now it probably won't since scum will just buddy me for the win.

But you haven't tried randomly guessing.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd venture to say OMGUS has the same chance of hitting scum as rolling a fair die.

It's worked for me so far. Only now it probably won't since scum will just buddy me for the win.

But you haven't tried randomly guessing.

You mean POE?

[pacovf]

I think I should invest in Aloe Vera. They're telling me the number of burn incidents are abnormally high this time of the year.

[silverspawn]

Did you just say that PPS was your strongest townread? 

no, this is another example of me switching words up. i meant, my strongest town read was nightkilled.

[pacovf]

That makes more sense. Still, did you really rank Azadin higher than Teproc/Volt/WW?

[Voltaire]

Did you just say that PPS was your strongest townread? 

no, this is another example of me switching words up. i meant, my strongest town read was nightkilled.

How the hell was azadin your strongest town read?

[Voltaire]

I'd venture to say OMGUS has the same chance of hitting scum as rolling a fair die.

It's worked for me so far. Only now it probably won't since scum will just buddy me for the win.

But you haven't tried randomly guessing.

You mean POE?

Yeah, my POE system is shit. What a horrible D1 lynch it caused this game.

[silverspawn]

Did you just say that PPS was your strongest townread? 

no, this is another example of me switching words up. i meant, my strongest town read was nightkilled.

How the hell was azadin your strongest town read?

why is that odd?

i posted a reread of him during day one, concluding that he's very towny.

[Voltaire]

How the hell was azadin your strongest town read?

why is that odd?

i posted a reread of him during day one, concluding that he's very towny.

More than me, Teproc, or WW?

*also, thanks for leaving the quote source in! 

[silverspawn]

More than me, Teproc, or WW?

I stated several times that I consider WW an IC, he is not a read. and yea, more than you. please don't ask now why I didn't vote him for hand of the king.

[Voltaire]

More than me, Teproc, or WW?

I stated several times that I consider WW an IC, he is not a read. and yea, more than you. please don't ask now why I didn't vote him for hand of the king.

Hey silver, why did you vote for me over a stronger town read for Hand of the King?

[pacovf]

Did you just say that PPS was your strongest townread? 

no, this is another example of me switching words up. i meant, my strongest town read was nightkilled.

How the hell was azadin your strongest town read?

why is that odd?

i posted a reread of him during day one, concluding that he's very towny.

Yes, but we got a scum flip since then, right? Would he still be your top townread if he was still alive? More than, say, Teproc?

[Voltaire]

Lots of the lynch candidates saying "investigate me" makes me think scum has a Godfatherer. Was that in any of the setups that inspired this one?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd venture to say OMGUS has the same chance of hitting scum as rolling a fair die.

It's worked for me so far. Only now it probably won't since scum will just buddy me for the win.

But you haven't tried randomly guessing.

You mean POE?

Yeah, my POE system is shit. What a horrible D1 lynch it caused this game.

I'm being sarcastic here.

I know you to be one of the strongest town players in this whole forum, if not the strongest. And I don't think POE is shit, I'm just referencing my previous rash statement when I was angry at being targeted by it.

[silverspawn]

More than me, Teproc, or WW?

I stated several times that I consider WW an IC, he is not a read. and yea, more than you. please don't ask now why I didn't vote him for hand of the king.

Hey silver, why did you vote for me over a stronger town read for Hand of the King?

because everyone was up for voting you, i didn't and don't mind you having the power, and it didn't seem beneficial for my position to start a grand debate about whether or not azadin or you is townier.

[Voltaire]

Yeah, my POE system is shit. What a horrible D1 lynch it caused this game.

I'm being sarcastic here.

I know you to be one of the strongest town players in this whole forum, if not the strongest. And I don't think POE is shit, I'm just referencing my previous rash statement when I was angry at being targeted by it.

Don't worry, I know how frustrating it is to be caught as scum by POE (it's happened to me), and it's got to be even more frustrating when it happens as town. My playstyle happens to lend itself to being obv!town or obv!scum most of the time, so it doesn't happen to me as often.

[Voltaire]

my strongest town read got lynched. I wouldn't treat Robz/ash as IC's. I think IG is really towny. I'd investigate/lynch Egork unless a good reason not to comes up. that's all.

damn it. Why'd you have to have such townie reads?

Please everyone, let's kill Hydrad.

Can you expand on the first part? What about his reads here do you like?

[Ichimaru Gin]

my strongest town read got lynched. I wouldn't treat Robz/ash as IC's. I think IG is really towny. I'd investigate/lynch Egork unless a good reason not to comes up. that's all.

damn it. Why'd you have to have such townie reads?

Please everyone, let's kill Hydrad.

Can you expand on the first part? What about his reads here do you like?

They seem to line up with my reads (and the rest of who I see as town/IC's) almost perfectly. Considering that more though, this may actually be more scummy.

If silver flips scum, this is either an attempt at introducing some WIFOM, or we don't really have the number on who his partner(s) really are.

[Voltaire]

Do you still prefer Hydrad?

My comment about flip-flopping is because I can build narratives where all four off-wagon are scum and are partners with each other in pretty much every combination, which is why a piece of me really can't decide at all.

[Ichimaru Gin]

my strongest town read got lynched. I wouldn't treat Robz/ash as IC's. I think IG is really towny. I'd investigate/lynch Egork unless a good reason not to comes up. that's all.

damn it. Why'd you have to have such townie reads?

Please everyone, let's kill Hydrad.

Can you expand on the first part? What about his reads here do you like?

They seem to line up with my reads (and the rest of who I see as town/IC's) almost perfectly. Considering that more though, this may actually be more scummy.

If silver flips scum, this is either an attempt at introducing some WIFOM, or we don't really have the number on who his partner(s) really are.

Nevermind, missed the "wouldn't" in there.

I think it would make much more sense if he flipped town, and is suspicious of the other PR's and their results--in the same way that they are of them since it seems like there's just too many with similar powers. If he flips scum, I think that obviously makes ash look more legit.

PPE: 1

[Voltaire]

Vote Count 2.6

Hydrad (3): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn, Robz888
silverspawn (5): ashersky, EgorK, pacovf, Witherweaver, Hydrad
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (2): Teproc,Voltaire


With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

Assume scum!silver.

So silver's partner is bussing, even if it's pacovf. Plausible? Probable? Unlikely?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Do you still prefer Hydrad?

My comment about flip-flopping is because I can build narratives where all four off-wagon are scum and are partners with each other in pretty much every combination, which is why a piece of me really can't decide at all.

I do still prefer Hydrad. The case on silver is much more claimy related, while Hydrad's is pretty solid evidence that points to him being PPS's scumpartner.

Also, I have a little trouble seeing scum!silver continue to oppose PPS's lynch at the very end of D1. There's WIFOM there of course, but I know I wouldn't do it if my partner was going down.

PPE:

Vote Count 2.6

Hydrad (3): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn, Robz888
silverspawn (5): ashersky, EgorK, pacovf, Witherweaver, Hydrad
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (2): Teproc,Voltaire


With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends September 28 at noon.

Assume scum!silver.

So silver's partner is bussing, even if it's pacovf. Plausible? Probable? Unlikely?

I think probable. I see egorK as the most likely partner, but pacovf could be scum who has blended in really well.

[Voltaire]

Also, I have a little trouble seeing scum!silver continue to oppose PPS's lynch at the very end of D1. There's WIFOM there of course, but I know I wouldn't do it if my partner was going down.

I agree, but it wasn't inevitable.

Intent to hammer silver, like, soon.

[Robz888]

Also, I have a little trouble seeing scum!silver continue to oppose PPS's lynch at the very end of D1. There's WIFOM there of course, but I know I wouldn't do it if my partner was going down.

I agree, but it wasn't inevitable.

Intent to hammer silver, like, soon.

If Silver is scum, and his partner is a vet (i.e. Teproc), the partner is NOT busing, it's almost an auto-lose at this point. A new-ish partner might not have realized that he was in a must-prevent-death-of-partner-at-all-costs scenario, however.

I don't really think Silver is scum, however. If I'm not around tomorrow, keep in mind that Hydrad was my preference, and I'm most afraid of scum Teproc.

[Robz888]

And that ash, WW, Voltaire, and XP are all exceedingly likely to be town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Might as well, I don't think there's much more to discuss today--and the house changing actions have been confirmed and all.

PPE: Robz

[Voltaire]

All these people who prefer Hydrad and are fine with me hammering silver (IG/Robz), is it that you're not convinced enough to change my mind, or that you think silver could be Hydrad's partner?

[Robz888]

All these people who prefer Hydrad and are fine with me hammering silver (IG/Robz), is it that you're not convinced enough to change my mind, or that you think silver could be Hydrad's partner?

Voltaire, I feel like you don't see my posts, or something? I've been arguing repeatedly that silver is not scum and should not be the lynch.

[Voltaire]

All these people who prefer Hydrad and are fine with me hammering silver (IG/Robz), is it that you're not convinced enough to change my mind, or that you think silver could be Hydrad's partner?

Voltaire, I feel like you don't see my posts, or something? I've been arguing repeatedly that silver is not scum and should not be the lynch.

I got more of a shrug then a "no you fool!" vibe from them, if that makes sense.

So I was reading into your intent and not your words. Thanks for being explicit and clearing that up.

[Robz888]

All these people who prefer Hydrad and are fine with me hammering silver (IG/Robz), is it that you're not convinced enough to change my mind, or that you think silver could be Hydrad's partner?

Voltaire, I feel like you don't see my posts, or something? I've been arguing repeatedly that silver is not scum and should not be the lynch.

I got more of a shrug then a "no you fool!" vibe from them, if that makes sense.

So I was reading into your intent and not your words. Thanks for being explicit and clearing that up.

I'm not confident enough to give it a "no you fool!", sure. I find his flailing townie, and I found how he's dying to be townie.

[Voltaire]

Yeah. vote: Hydrad

I feel like it's notable that EgorK has mostly lurked through all of this, which is why he's still up there for me.

[Voltaire]

I find his flailing townie, and I found how he's dying to be townie.

This is why I changed my mind, for those who like documentation for this sort of thing.

[Ichimaru Gin]

great! I'm already voting Hydrad,

So I think we just need two more votes.

[Hydrad]

ok I'm here for lunch and just read the last few pages.

I think I'm at L-2 and silver is L-1.

If you guys are split 50/50 I think silver is the slightly better lynch as if he does flip 1 shot cop XP is another IC. Where as you kill me. I flip town and then there isn't much info. I guess that one good thing here is at least there is 2 wagons going. I was worried at first that I would get lynched with no other candidates so you wouldn't be able to look at who was on the wagons very well.

[Robz888]

I find his flailing townie, and I found how he's dying to be townie.

This is why I changed my mind, for those who like documentation for this sort of thing.

Great. Yeah, if Silver is actually scum and we came this close to lynching him and then didn't... It will be unprecedented, I think. It just never happens. So I really do think he is town. I'm more sure he's town than I am that Hydrad is scum, but somebody has to be scum here.

[Witherweaver]

I don't know, my gut still says scum on Silverspawn.  I also think he in no means had a townie Day 1, and I find it odd that he keeps bringing that up as a defense.

[Hydrad]

I don't know, my gut still says scum on Silverspawn.  I also think he in no means had a townie Day 1, and I find it odd that he keeps bringing that up as a defense.

trust the gut! are you still rereading SS or have you given that up for now?

[Witherweaver]

I don't know, my gut still says scum on Silverspawn.  I also think he in no means had a townie Day 1, and I find it odd that he keeps bringing that up as a defense.

trust the gut! are you still rereading SS or have you given that up for now?

I don't quite have the time.  Maybe tomorrow.

[Teproc]

Well I like both lynches, but I disagree about your read on silver's dying posts. I feel like they're desperately trying to act as if he's okay with being lynched in the hope that we change our mind.

[Teproc]

@WW : he kinda had a townie day 1 though, especially if we compare it to Hydrad.

I don't know.

[Teproc]

Also I'm amused that Robz is scared by scum!Teproc. I'm one of the worst scum players on f.ds.

[Robz888]

Well I like both lynches, but I disagree about your read on silver's dying posts. I feel like they're desperately trying to act as if he's okay with being lynched in the hope that we change our mind.

It's difficult to tell, because I have no scum reference for silverspawn, but I read it as legit townie who is not thrilled with going down, but okay with it. It's a really good act, if it IS just an act.

[Teproc]

I do think scum!silver could have been defending PPS until the very end, his lynch never seemed inevitable to me.

[Hydrad]

@WW : he kinda had a townie day 1 though, especially if we compare it to Hydrad.

I don't know.

I think people thought I was towny until 15min before deadline? I think everyone sees me as scummy because I didn't want to lynch a VLA person when he said he was coming back the next couple days. Before that though I had PPS as one of my few scum reads that whole day. I realize it looks bad but I don't think its as bad as everyone is saying... but I guess i'm biased

PPE:3

[Teproc]

@WW : he kinda had a townie day 1 though, especially if we compare it to Hydrad.

I don't know.

I think people thought I was towny until 15min before deadline? I think everyone sees me as scummy because I didn't want to lynch a VLA person when he said he was coming back the next couple days. Before that though I had PPS as one of my few scum reads that whole day. I realize it looks bad but I don't think its as bad as everyone is saying... but I guess i'm biased

PPE:3

Well yeah, what makes your day 1 scummy is your attitude towards PPS : calling him scummy and wanting to lynch him, then suddenly not wanting to for a reason that seems artificial. Sure, it might not be, but why would not lynch people who are V/LA ? If you're V/LA for deadline, well itsucks to be you but the deadline is there. The one time I got mislynched it was in my sleep and sure, it's not pleasant, but I didn't expect anyone to not lynch me because I happen to be ina  different timezone (admittedly that's not a V/LA but it comes down to the same thing).

[ashersky]

I disagree with you Robz.  Not in like an angry old man way, but just our guts are saying different things.

It's fake, not even inspired flailing, followed by "eh whatever, I give up."  It mirrors PPS's giving up, actually.

Plus the claim issue is a pretty strong consideration.

[pacovf]

Well I like both lynches, but I disagree about your read on silver's dying posts. I feel like they're desperately trying to act as if he's okay with being lynched in the hope that we change our mind.

It's difficult to tell, because I have no scum reference for silverspawn, but I read it as legit townie who is not thrilled with going down, but okay with it. It's a really good act, if it IS just an act.

I read it as disinterested scum.

I agree with Teproc that silverspawn didn't have a townie D1, I would argue the opposite actually. Whether it was more or less scummy than Hydrad, I don't really know.

I am happy with a Hydrad lynch too, so whatever, I am not going to be headstrong about it.

Also, Robz: you are accepting that all the investigative claims are true? You seem to be saying that Ash, Volt and silverspawn read strong town to you.

PPE 3

[Teproc]

WHat do yo mean "the claim issue" ? That's something in favor of lynching silver, not against it.

[pacovf]

That's what Ash is saying, I think.

[Teproc]

Whatever, in the end my gut says silver is scum and Hydrad is town. Probably.

Intent to hammer.

[Teproc]

Actually we have everything we need from silver ? reads and stuff ?

[Hydrad]

Actually we have everything we need from silver ? reads and stuff ?

he did like a 2 line post of his reads.

[silverspawn]

Actually we have everything we need from silver ? reads and stuff ?

yeah. you can hammer.

[Teproc]

Ok then.

vote : silverspawn

[Hydrad]

ok any last words SS?

[Robz888]

Well I like both lynches, but I disagree about your read on silver's dying posts. I feel like they're desperately trying to act as if he's okay with being lynched in the hope that we change our mind.

It's difficult to tell, because I have no scum reference for silverspawn, but I read it as legit townie who is not thrilled with going down, but okay with it. It's a really good act, if it IS just an act.

I read it as disinterested scum.

I agree with Teproc that silverspawn didn't have a townie D1, I would argue the opposite actually. Whether it was more or less scummy than Hydrad, I don't really know.

I am happy with a Hydrad lynch too, so whatever, I am not going to be headstrong about it.

Also, Robz: you are accepting that all the investigative claims are true? You seem to be saying that Ash, Volt and silverspawn read strong town to you.

PPE 3

Yes, I believe all the PR claims at this point.

[Robz888]

I disagree with you Robz.  Not in like an angry old man way, but just our guts are saying different things.

It's fake, not even inspired flailing, followed by "eh whatever, I give up."  It mirrors PPS's giving up, actually.

Plus the claim issue is a pretty strong consideration.

Sure, sure. Well, now we shall see.

[pacovf]

Well I like both lynches, but I disagree about your read on silver's dying posts. I feel like they're desperately trying to act as if he's okay with being lynched in the hope that we change our mind.

It's difficult to tell, because I have no scum reference for silverspawn, but I read it as legit townie who is not thrilled with going down, but okay with it. It's a really good act, if it IS just an act.

I read it as disinterested scum.

I agree with Teproc that silverspawn didn't have a townie D1, I would argue the opposite actually. Whether it was more or less scummy than Hydrad, I don't really know.

I am happy with a Hydrad lynch too, so whatever, I am not going to be headstrong about it.

Also, Robz: you are accepting that all the investigative claims are true? You seem to be saying that Ash, Volt and silverspawn read strong town to you.

PPE 3

Yes, I believe all the PR claims at this point.

If you believe the claims, you can't believe the results. I can't think Faust would put that many powers, and no way for mafia to manipulate them.

Anyway, we will soon now if silverspawn was lying.

[pacovf]

We're losing steam guys, only 35 pages of D2! We aren't going to break the 167 page record this way

[Witherweaver]

If we keep lynching scum we're not going to break the record

[pacovf]

You are right.

Vote: witherweaver

[Teproc]

We're losing steam guys, only 35 pages of D2! We aren't going to break the 167 page record this way

Is that MXII or M31 ? Anyway ourgoal is the 13-player game record, whatever that is.

[silverspawn]

sigh. okay. I'm scum.

i thought, if i'm really active and don't behave opportunistic in any way, noone would suspect that I can pull this off as scum. It kind of worked, but then PPS got himself killed. i even risked it and tried to defend him, but it wasn't enough, and then that was bad for my image too.

and then the claim just went horribly wrong. sorry teproc, i could should have told you about it during the night, but well we didn't know that we had to claim. i actually did plan it, since i was 1-shot doctor in the previous game, I thought it'd be believable. like, you don't claim a role that you had in the previous game. i even considered claiming the exact same role, but as a one-shot doctor, it would be weird to use my shot N1. i thought this was the better option.

the doctor slip didn't actually mean anything. it really didn't. it could have happened to me as town.

and, well, I thought giving up was untypical for me and it might sound like defeated!town!silver, so that's why I tried that. i was really hoping to get away with that until the very end.

so, gg. the setup seems pretty broken anyway.

[Teproc]

Well, ths is unprecedented.

[Witherweaver]

Wait was he even lynched?  Didn't Volt change votes?

[Hydrad]

uhhh whoa

[Teproc]

Are you saying I'm your partner ?

[Witherweaver]

Did he just try to implicate Teproc too?

[Teproc]

Wait was he even lynched?  Didn't Volt change votes?

He was, Voltaire did vote Hydrad but he was not voting.

[pacovf]

sigh. okay. I'm scum.

i thought, if i'm really active and don't behave opportunistic in any way, noone would suspect that I can pull this off as scum. It kind of worked, but then PPS got himself killed. i even risked it and tried to defend him, but it wasn't enough, and then that was bad for my image too.

and then the claim just went horribly wrong. sorry teproc, i could should have told you about it during the night, but well we didn't know that we had to claim. i actually did plan it, since i was 1-shot doctor in the previous game, I thought it'd be believable. like, you don't claim a role that you had in the previous game. i even considered claiming the exact same role, but as a one-shot doctor, it would be weird to use my shot N1. i thought this was the better option.

the doctor slip didn't actually mean anything. it really didn't. it could have happened to me as town.

and, well, I thought giving up was untypical for me and it might sound like defeated!town!silver, so that's why I tried that. i was really hoping to get away with that until the very end.

so, gg. the setup seems pretty broken anyway.

To be fair, you constantly (but quietly) bringing up Ash case on me felt very opportunistic to me.

Anyway, you had a good D1, the XP absolution by the Targs really screwed you over there.

Also

sorry teproc

PPE 6

[Teproc]

Is this town!silver trolling us ? That'd be pretty funny.

[Robz888]

Are you saying I'm your partner ?

Are you saying you're not?

[Witherweaver]

Is this town!silver trolling us ? That'd be pretty funny.

Weird thing for you to say

[pacovf]

Is this town!silver trolling us ? That'd be pretty funny.

Weird thing for you to say

It WOULD be funny though

[Teproc]

Are you saying I'm your partner ?

Are you saying you're not?

That is what I'm saying, yes.

@WW : I mean I hope not. It just seems like something he could do, since [ongoing game]

[pacovf]

Tomorrow we lynch Hydrad, and we get a flawless victory. Everybody agree? Good. 

[Witherweaver]

That okay with you, Hydrad?

[silverspawn]

Are you saying I'm your partner ?

oups.

uh... sry

but you have to admit that we were going to lose anyway.

try to, dunno, make it sound like i'm faking it or something

[Robz888]

Okay... okay... most likely explanation here is scum Silverspawn and town Teproc, correct? SS trying to frame an innocent? Though perhaps a double bluff would be more clever...

[Teproc]

Well regardless of silverspawn's alignment this is pretty awesome. Lynched people should do this more often.

I like the french spelling of "oups" too (is it also spelled that way in German ?)

[pacovf]

 

Kudos, silver.

silverspawn is just messing with us. It doesn't mean anything. Teproc was a strong townread for everybody anyway. Only paranoia would make you think otherwise.

[Witherweaver]

Okay... okay... most likely explanation here is scum Silverspawn and town Teproc, correct? SS trying to frame an innocent? Though perhaps a double bluff would be more clever...

Yeah, unfortunately we're going to have to consider Teproc to test this.

I really don't think he's scum, though.

At least, until he posted that "hey I don't know Silver's alignment" thing.

[Hydrad]

That okay with you, Hydrad?

well i was suggesting this before so ya kinda.

[Teproc]

Okay... okay... most likely explanation here is scum Silverspawn and town Teproc, correct? SS trying to frame an innocent? Though perhaps a double bluff would be more clever...

Yeah, unfortunately we're going to have to consider Teproc to test this.

I really don't think he's scum, though.

At least, until he posted that "hey I don't know Silver's alignment" thing.

The thing is : this stunt makes me think he's town. Which, you know, is a little late.

If he's scum then whatever, he's just WIFOMing. If he's town this is just hilarious.

[Robz888]

Kudos, silver.

silverspawn is just messing with us. It doesn't mean anything. Teproc was a strong townread for everybody anyway. Only paranoia would make you think otherwise.

Untrue, he was not a strong townread for me. Clearly I was wrong about SS, though. Good call, guys!

[Witherweaver]

From now on whenever I get lynched---regardless of my alignment---I'm going to claim I'm scum and out people as my partner.

[Teproc]

From now on whenever I get lynched---regardless of my alignment---I'm going to claim I'm scum and out people as my partner.

This is what I'm saying. This should become a new tradition.

[silverspawn]

well i'm scum. i also think i played pretty bad, so sorry everyone.

the hammer was unnecessary though. we'd have gotten away with hydrad.

[silverspawn]

and please, don't make a case out of "you used the wrong word" again. that was so stupid.

[Teproc]

well i'm scum. i also think i played pretty bad, so sorry everyone.

the hammer was unnecessary though. we'd have gotten away with hydrad.

lol

[EgorK]

Yay, so close to my first victory

I feel like it's notable that EgorK has mostly lurked through all of this, which is why he's still up there for me.

Lurked through what? I'm guilty as charged for lurking D1, but I posted D2 every time I had opportunity to

[Teproc]

and please, don't make a case out of "you used the wrong word" again. that was so stupid.

FWIW, I didn't lynch you for that. And it's called a scumslip.

[pacovf]

Kudos, silver.

silverspawn is just messing with us. It doesn't mean anything. Teproc was a strong townread for everybody anyway. Only paranoia would make you think otherwise.

Untrue, he was not a strong townread for me. Clearly I was wrong about SS, though. Good call, guys!

Certainly, I remembered! The difference is that you are wrong about Teproc too! 

[silverspawn]

this is awkward. i didn't include teprocs name on purpose. why isn't anyone angry?

[Witherweaver]

....

[pacovf]

this is awkward. i didn't include teprocs name on purpose. why isn't anyone angry?

Oooh you are getting good at this!

[silverspawn]

oh and i am also a one-shot ninja. not a godfather. we have zero defense against the cop. it's really stupid....

[silverspawn]

maybe there is a second scum faction, but with 3 people in ours, i can't imagine it. maybe a SK?

[Hydrad]

I almost just want faust to log on so this WIFOM stops D:

[Witherweaver]

Well, for future note: We have to consider the possibility that genius!scum!Ash planned this and Silver played it to perfection.  I don't think it's *that* likely, but our current plan is to basically make Ash invincible. 

[silverspawn]

Well, for future note: We have to consider the possibility that genius!scum!Ash planned this and Silver played it to perfection.  I don't think it's *that* likely, but our current plan is to basically make Ash invincible. 

ash is town

he was completely wrong about Pac though.

that is, unless pac is an SK, then he was onto something.

[pacovf]

Yeah, I've been thinking for a while that silver is a sacrificial goat to make Ashersky, or even Voltaire, conf!town. But conspiracy theories are good only after you have run out of reasonable theories.

[Teproc]

Well, for future note: We have to consider the possibility that genius!scum!Ash planned this and Silver played it to perfection.  I don't think it's *that* likely, but our current plan is to basically make Ash invincible. 

He won't be lynchproof... Also that's really not what the plan is.

It might be a while, it 11:30 PM here, so if faust went to sleep early this could be a long twilight. I assume he'll show up in the next 30 minutes though.

[Hydrad]

TA save us!

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I've been thinking for a while that silver is a sacrificial goat to make Ashersky, or even Voltaire, conf!town. But conspiracy theories are good only after you have run out of reasonable theories.

Agreed. 

PPE: Well, we have a doctor that cannot be killed, and a Cop, so....  Usually you start to doubt the cop when he's around forever.  But with control of Stark we can permadoctor Ash.

[Teproc]

Yeah, I've been thinking for a while that silver is a sacrificial goat to make Ashersky, or even Voltaire, conf!town. But conspiracy theories are good only after you have run out of reasonable theories.

How do they make obv!town ?

This setup could have only one, or no PRs. I iniallythought the PR that was referred to in the initial post would be the only one. I doubt they're all lying now, but one of them could be (ash). Still not very likely, but possible.

[Teproc]

Yeah, I've been thinking for a while that silver is a sacrificial goat to make Ashersky, or even Voltaire, conf!town. But conspiracy theories are good only after you have run out of reasonable theories.

Agreed. 

PPE: Well, we have a doctor that cannot be killed, and a Cop, so....  Usually you start to doubt the cop when he's around forever.  But with control of Stark we can permadoctor Ash.

There's also a Tracker.

[Witherweaver]

Ah, well, true.

Unless we have four scum, or two teams (doubt that), the Voltaire-Ash conspiracy is basically out.  So one of them should be telling the truth.

[silverspawn]

here we all are
born into a struggle
to come so far
but end up returning to dust

[Teproc]

Ah, well, true.

Unless we have four scum, or two teams (doubt that), the Voltaire-Ash conspiracy is basically out.  So one of them should be telling the truth.

Yep. If there's only one scum team, that has to be Voltaire (because I don't see scum!Voltaire bussing PPS like that). If there are two, different story since they could be a team.

[silverspawn]

i really hope i don't get banned from mafia for this or something

well, maybe this serves as a town read for teproc. in that case, I want MVP at the end of the game.

[Witherweaver]

i really hope i don't get banned from mafia for this or something

well, maybe this serves as a town read for teproc. in that case, I want MVP at the end of the game.

Okay okay, don't push it.

[pacovf]

Yeah, I've been thinking for a while that silver is a sacrificial goat to make Ashersky, or even Voltaire, conf!town. But conspiracy theories are good only after you have run out of reasonable theories.

How do they make obv!town ?

This setup could have only one, or no PRs. I iniallythought the PR that was referred to in the initial post would be the only one. I doubt they're all lying now, but one of them could be (ash). Still not very likely, but possible.

Imagine Ash it scum. He knows there is a tracker (because ninja). He decides very early to claim cop (he knows there is a pseudo unkillable protective role anyway), and, to avoid suspicion about Tracker + Cop + Lannister (seems unlikely), he makes silverspawn fake claim 1 shot-cop. Now tracker + cop seems more likely, because we are comparing it to tracker + cop + 1-shot cop. obv!town might be too strong a word, but it makes the claim look more likely.

A similar argument could be made for Volt.

But really, these are conspiracy theories.

PPE 5

[silverspawn]

yea, i'll shut up now. sorry for everything. see you after the game ends.

[Teproc]

Volt is harder if he's not in a team with ash because he has to succesfully claim ash's target.

Admittedly ash had breadcrumbed it, but I actually though it was WW. Didn't reread to see if Volt could have deduced that, but I don't think so.

[pacovf]

Volt is harder if he's not in a team with ash because he has to succesfully claim ash's target.

Admittedly ash had breadcrumbed it, but I actually though it was WW. Didn't reread to see if Volt could have deduced that, but I don't think so.

Thing is, Volt was forced to guess, and Robz was a likely target (Ash made the "now I don't want to claim" post right after Robz's). Sometimes you just get lucky.

But yeah, these are like, D7 considerations or something, and I doubt we will reach that high a number.

[Voltaire]

I don't know, my gut still says scum on Silverspawn.  I also think he in no means had a townie Day 1, and I find it odd that he keeps bringing that up as a defense.

Silver is scummy as town though. He doesn't have many games but that's been the case, no?

[Voltaire]

Also I'm amused that Robz is scared by scum!Teproc. I'm one of the worst scum players on f.ds.

I was about to come here all indignant, and then I saw you said "one of".

[Witherweaver]

*waits for Voltaire to catch up*

[Teproc]

Also I'm amused that Robz is scared by scum!Teproc. I'm one of the worst scum players on f.ds.

I was about to come here all indignant, and then I saw you said "one of".

I literally have one win, which was largely due to me being new. You have won other games as scum than Chocolate right ?

[Teproc]

*waits for Voltaire to catch up*

I know right ? This is going to be funny.

[Teproc]

Prediction :

Wait, what ?

...

[Voltaire]

oh god you guys oh god

[Teproc]

Yeah, that works too.

[pacovf]

This is better than the soap opera. Quickly, the popcorn!

[Teproc]

This is better than the soap opera. Quickly, the popcorn!

The soap opera ? I was led to believe there are several in existence.

[Voltaire]

Well, for future note: We have to consider the possibility that genius!scum!Ash planned this and Silver played it to perfection.  I don't think it's *that* likely, but our current plan is to basically make Ash invincible.

Not from a lynch.

also



wut

[ashersky]

This is fun.

[pacovf]

This is better than the soap opera. Quickly, the popcorn!

The soap opera ? I was led to believe there are several in existence.

You caught me, I never actually watched one.

Do people still believe in Lynch All Liars? Man I'm screwed.

[ashersky]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

[Witherweaver]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

Agreed.  But he would have bussed PPS, so something to keep in mind.

[Voltaire]

Also I'm amused that Robz is scared by scum!Teproc. I'm one of the worst scum players on f.ds.

I was about to come here all indignant, and then I saw you said "one of".

I literally have one win, which was largely due to me being new. You have won other games as scum than Chocolate right ?

I think so? Was that the one where ash was our third member?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Has anyone claimed scum before like that?

[Voltaire]

If it's a conspiracy: ash is scum
If it's clever vet scum play: Teproc
If it's obvious: Hydrad, with Robz saying Teproc was the one we needed to worry about something silver seized on to try to lower the number of IC*s his partner has to navigate

[Witherweaver]

Also, my track record for lynching scum is getting to be pretty awesome!

[ashersky]

Has anyone claimed scum before like that?

Plenty.

[Voltaire]

Has anyone claimed scum before like that?

Yes, but usually either after an end-of-game hammer. Maybe someone has done it in one line before when it wasn't the end of the game, but not a long list of reasons.

[pacovf]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

Agreed.  But he would have bussed PPS, so something to keep in mind.

Can't he be tracked? Godfather doesn't protect from tracking, right?

Silverspawn flipping ninja would 100% make an IC of Voltaire anyway, right?

[Witherweaver]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

Agreed.  But he would have bussed PPS, so something to keep in mind.

Can't he be tracked? Godfather doesn't protect from tracking, right?

Silverspawn flipping ninja would 100% make an IC of Voltaire anyway, right?

Ah, good point.  Not necessarily (could be random.. 1-shot Ninja is included because Tracker might be included), but likely yes.

[Voltaire]

Guys, I have to take someone to the airport RIGHT NOW. I'm going to miss the rest of this. 

Amazing job all those who called silver, I'm poisoned on cases that involve scumslips even when they're obvious.

[ashersky]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

Agreed.  But he would have bussed PPS, so something to keep in mind.

D1 bus I can see.  Was sensible in that case.

No way scum!robz busses today, and he didn't.

File this under setup conspiracy, though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Has anyone claimed scum before like that?

Yes, but usually either after an end-of-game hammer. Maybe someone has done it in one line before when it wasn't the end of the game, but not a long list of reasons.

That makes sense if the game's over anyway (come to think of it, I did that in Stack the Deck  )
But it's pretty interesting claiming now and then all this crazy stuff happening

PPE: 3

[Voltaire]

Guyz remember when I voted for PPS and silver a lot D1 and silver got pissed about it?

 

[pacovf]

Guys, I have to take someone to the airport RIGHT NOW. I'm going to miss the rest of this. 

Amazing job all those who called silver, I'm poisoned on cases that involve scumslips even when they're obvious.

The case didn't solely involve the scumslips, though! 

[Teproc]

Looking up records :

Dice Mafia has 91 pages with only 14 players, but RMM doesn't count.

Obviously Modern Community has 95 pages, but that had 21 players.

Deep Space Nine Mafia (MXIX) went for 63 pages with 15 players.

Mafia XVI - Gambling with Death in Casino Helsinki, has 59 pages with 14 players.

Robz's mega game (Mafia XI - Find Yourself in he Courtyard Masquerade), reached 82 with 25 players.

RMM3 : Reaf the Freaking Flavor had 15 players and 53 pages

Role Madness Mafia I had 49 pages for 16 players.

Mafia VI, Ozle's game, had 84 pages for 19 players.

Mafia IV - Within These Estate Walls had 70 pages for 15 players.


So we've already set the record for a 13 players game.

PPE : see my signature

[ashersky]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

Agreed.  But he would have bussed PPS, so something to keep in mind.

Can't he be tracked? Godfather doesn't protect from tracking, right?

Silverspawn flipping ninja would 100% make an IC of Voltaire anyway, right?

No.  See Modern Community for the angst of those assumptions.

[Voltaire]

Guys, I have to take someone to the airport RIGHT NOW. I'm going to miss the rest of this. 

Amazing job all those who called silver, I'm poisoned on cases that involve scumslips even when they're obvious.

The case didn't solely involve the scumslips, though! 

That's what I'm saying. Good reason + scumslip reason = Voltaire ignores the good reason. Which is bad on my part.

Also actually leaving now.

[ashersky]

Enjoy O'Hare!

[pacovf]

Godfather Robz would be super scary right now.

Agreed.  But he would have bussed PPS, so something to keep in mind.

Can't he be tracked? Godfather doesn't protect from tracking, right?

Silverspawn flipping ninja would 100% make an IC of Voltaire anyway, right?

No.  See Modern Community for the angst of those assumptions.

Was Modern Community a closed setup too?

[Teproc]

WHy are you assuming silver is scum Volt ? I actually think he's town there. Maybe because I have the benefit of knowing my alignment, but this is pointless as scum, it's just WIFOM. As town, it's funny.

[Teproc]

@pacovf : yes

[pacovf]

@pacovf : yes

Shucks.

[Teproc]

I guess if he's town there's nothing to analyse so that's not a bad assumption to make. It's definitely option 3.

[EgorK]

Also, my track record for lynching scum is getting to be pretty awesome!

You mean when you are not actually one?

[Teproc]

Also I'm amused that Robz is scared by scum!Teproc. I'm one of the worst scum players on f.ds.

I was about to come here all indignant, and then I saw you said "one of".

I literally have one win, which was largely due to me being new. You have won other games as scum than Chocolate right ?

I think so? Was that the one where ash was our third member?

Yes. He died for us and we somehow beat the crippling PoE. It was beautiful.

[pacovf]

I guess if he's town there's nothing to analyse so that's not a bad assumption to make. It's definitely option 3.

Sorry, can you say what you are referring to, here?

[Teproc]

I hope TA is authorized to flip, otherwise it's going to have to wait for tomorrow morning it looks like.

PPE : Voltaire's post, I'll quote it in a second.

[Teproc]

If it's a conspiracy: ash is scum
If it's clever vet scum play: Teproc
If it's obvious: Hydrad, with Robz saying Teproc was the one we needed to worry about something silver seized on to try to lower the number of IC*s his partner has to navigate

[Teproc]

Not the Hydrad part, the part where scum!Hydrad picked me because Robz had expressed paranoia.

[pacovf]

I see. Frankly, I believe Hydrad is the most likely last member. If it's clever vet scum play, our investigators will tell us. If it's a conspiracy, the latter days are going to be great fun 

[Teproc]

I meant scum!silver above. I'm getting tired but I want to see this flip...

[Ichimaru Gin]

If it's a conspiracy, the latter days are going to be great fun 

[faust]

THREAD LOCKED!

[faust]

Day 2 Final Vote Count

Hydrad (4): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn, Robz888, Voltaire
silverspawn (6): ashersky, EgorK, Witherweaver, Hydrad, pacovf, Teproc
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (0)

With 11 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

[faust]

Davos

After a long time of turmoil and confusion the realm finally had come to peace. Robb Stark's wife had died giving birth, and Stannis secured the loyalty of the North by marrying his daughter to their king.

In King's Landing, things slowly went back to normal. The Red Woman had wanted every supporter of the Lannisters to be sacrificed to R'hllor, but Davos managed to convince his king to keep most of them in court. The small council looked much the same as it did before Stannis' coronation: Grandmaester Pycelle, Littlefinger, the Prince of Dorne. Only the Traitor Varys had been removed, his place now occupied – to the great displeasure of the old houses of Westeros – by Davos himself, the new Master of Whisperers.

"The Targaryen girl is a threat to our peace. She keeps gathering troops and conquering cities. It will not be long before she decides to make war on Westeros. We should strike before that happens", Davos reported.

"Daenerys Targaryen has done nothing to offend me", answered Stannis. "No harm will come to her before..."

Stannis stopped in mid sentence, dropping his cup, and sank to the ground, choking. "What's happening?", yelled Davos. "Pycelle, do something!"

"There is nothing any of you can do", Oberyn Martell declared in a calm voice. "This man took part in the murder of my sister. I have waited a long time, but now revenge is mine."

Blood came out of Stannis' mouth. Within moments, he stopped moving. Pycelle kneeled over him and spoke in a low voice: „The king is dead. Seize the kingslayer!“.

silverspawn has been lynched! He was Oberyn Martell, the Mafia 1-shot Ninja!

Robb of House Stark sits on the Iron Throne!

Night 2 begins now and lasts 72 hours. Night actions are due in the first 24 hours. House votes are due in the first 48 hours.

[faust]

Hodor

Hodor hodorhodor hodor Hodor. Hodor HODOR! Hodor hodorhodor hodorhodorhodor.

Hodor-hodor, Hodor hodor hodor hodorhodor. Hooodor, hoodor, hodor Hodor.

HODOR! HODORHODOR!

Hodor hodor. Hodor hodor-hodor; hodor Hodor hodorhodor Hodor. Hodor - hodor hodorhodor. "Hodor hodor hodorhodor."

Hodorhodor. Hodor, hodor, hodor. HODOR. Hodor-hodor-hodorhodor.

THREAD UNLOCKED! Day 3 has begun!

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (10): pacovf, ashersky, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc, XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends October 5 at 6 pm.

[Hydrad]

Hodor!

[Teproc]

Awesome.

We probably want our Stark doctor to claim his target since that should pretty much make an IC right ?

Almost definitely one scumteam too.

[Witherweaver]

+1 to Faust

[Teproc]

By the way I wonder how faust would handle it if Baratheon got the king again since Stannis is apparently dead now.

[Witherweaver]

Why is Stannis dead?

[Hydrad]

By the way I wonder how faust would handle it if Baratheon got the king again since Stannis is apparently dead now.

I think Stannis is dead because we all left baratheon? so it can't be king anymore

[Witherweaver]

And wait, I thought Baratheon was dissolved?  How would they get king?

PPE: What Hydrad said.

[Teproc]

By the way I wonder how faust would handle it if Baratheon got the king again since Stannis is apparently dead now.

I think Stannis is dead because we all left baratheon? so it can't be king anymore

Oh right. Mmmh. So maybe the problem we were thinking about earlier would be settled by paying attention to the flavor ? Who knows I guess.

PPE : I actually forgot about Baratheon being dissolved here, but faust giving us that info in flavor is somewhat unexpected.

[Witherweaver]

I think you're reading too much into flavor.

[Hydrad]

I think you're reading too much into flavor.

I don't think we can fully rely on the flavour for things like that. But it does make me pretty sure that asher or someone didn't try to jump into baratheon if the flavor says stannis died.

[Teproc]

I think you're reading too much into flavor.

Probably.

[Witherweaver]

I think you're reading too much into flavor.

I don't think we can fully rely on the flavour for things like that. But it does make me pretty sure that asher or someone didn't try to jump into baratheon if the flavor says stannis died.

I doubt Faust would give that away, though.  Or, maybe it is public knowledge when a House is dissolved.. did the last one say anything about Lannister?

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, Stark want to reveal target?

[Witherweaver]

And Ash/Volt?

[Hydrad]

Anyway, Stark want to reveal target?

I would if I could... but we weren't told who got targetted.

[Teproc]

Joffrey only gets captured in the D1 flavor, so no indication that House Lannister is defunct.

I guess we need to work out an order here.

Here's my suggestion :
- Ichi (who was chosen to use the Stark power) claims his target
- Ichi's target (I'm assuming he targeted either Ash or Volt) is now quasi-IC, so the other ones claims his result first ?

It probably doesn't matter, but might as well.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I targeted Ashersky for protection last night.

[Teproc]

As expected.

The fact (or apparent fact) that scum tried to kill ash really points to a last, desperate scum I think. Maybe two, but we're definitely looking for a partner to PPS and silver.

[Teproc]

So ash is an IC* now, great.

Voltaire, anything useful ?

* Caveat : Yeah ash is capable of no-killing. Whatever, we'll consider that in 3 days or something.

[pacovf]

I wouldn't read too much into the flavour. For starters, all that red magic means we could have zombie-Stannis in the throne. Plus, we don't really know how the "King" mechanic works. For all we know, we cannot repeat Kings, and the empowerment condition "King Stannis sits on the Iron Throne" was actually stronger than "House Baratheon controls the Iron Throne" (as in, taking control of the Iron Throne, then losing it, then gaining it again wouldn't empower Baratheon).

Hodor.

[pacovf]

I targeted Ashersky for protection last night.

As expected.

Quick question: targeting Ash was expected, or targeting Ash/Volt was expected? If the former, can you explain why?

[Teproc]

Targeting ash was expected. He's an actual Cop, which is much stronger than a Tracker. Trackers can't make ICs.

[pacovf]

Ah, that makes sense. However, I think it's probable that there's only one scum left, in which case there's no difference between a tracker and a cop. Actually, I would argue the tracker is better, because it is unlikely that scum has yet another ninja, while scum could still have a godfather.

[Teproc]

Yeah that same thought occured to me as I wrote my post. Cop is better if there are two scum left though.

I guess ash being targeted is probably a sign that there is no godfather.

[pacovf]

Or a desperate, strangely transparent bet by Hydrad...

(Or, as you mentioned already, that Ash is crazy bold scum)

[ashersky]

Do we think scum bussed silver, or is off-wagon?

[Hydrad]

Do we think scum bussed silver, or is off-wagon?

Looking at the wagons I think scum is on wagon. as IG is the only one off wagon that might be scummy to me but he saved you and if he was scum I think he would of hit volt instead.

[pacovf]

Well, scum either bussed silver or PPS. I think it is more likely that they bussed silver than PPS, because, while if it is indeed a 3-man scumteam it would be near-suicide to bus your last partner, I think scum realized that standard scum play could not really get them a victory in the current situation. I know there are convincing arguments that point the other way, but that is how I feel right now. Plus, if the last scum really is Hydrad, is not like he really had any other choice, there was no viable lynch other than him or silver yesterday.

PPE: Hydrad, it could also be that Ichi is scum and chose to no-kill for the towncred.

[ashersky]

volt: I recommend not revealing your result yet.

[XerxesPraelor]

Can you give your result? I think we can catch scum today.

[Robz888]

Can you give your result? I think we can catch scum today.

He can just give it in our QT, for now.

[pacovf]

Ashersky is in Targaryen? 

[Hydrad]

Ashersky is in Targaryen? 

No i think robzz means volt

[Robz888]

Ashersky is in Targaryen? 

No i think robzz means volt

Correct, I mean Volt.

[XerxesPraelor]

I meant ash.

[Voltaire]

volt: I recommend not revealing your result yet.

Cool cool

[Voltaire]

I did claim in my QT though

[Ichimaru Gin]

So now what?
I'm probably gonna at least skim the thread, but I'm a little more doubtful of Hydrad being scum now given partner interaction.

[ashersky]

Day 2 Final Vote Count

Hydrad (4): Ichimaru Gin, Silverspawn, Robz888, Voltaire
silverspawn (6): ashersky, EgorK, Witherweaver, Hydrad, pacovf, Teproc
ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (0)

With 11 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Wagons, for reference.

[Teproc]

So we just start talking and at some point you guys will tell us your results, Chocolat Jimmm style ? Fine I suppose.

I've been putting this off, but I need to do a full reread now. I'm actually a little annoyed at having to do this without the results, because at this point the PoE has to be amazing.

Oh and actually it occured to me that the nokill could be due to Targ roleblocking so... Targs, what happened there ?

[pacovf]

I have to do a full reread too... Haven't done it yet, since I am not particularly looking forward to 59 pages of D1. I think Hydrad is the one that makes most sense based on interactions with PPS and silverspawn (avoided PPS, self-preservation voted for silver), but a reread could reveal new things.

I will probably start tonight. This is going to take forever... we are closing in to the 2500 posts milestone!

[Teproc]

pacovf, do you have something to say ?

[pacovf]

I gather from your comment that I have become houseless, since I haven't received any PM to that effect.

I asked Faust yesterday what would happen if someone were to try to move to an empty house. His answer was that one would become houseless.

Since it was impossible to know whether Ashersky would remain houseless or move to House Baratheon, having full control of an arsonist, I decided that it would be good for me to attempt to move to House Baratheon at the beginning of D3. That way, we could know whether House Baratheon had or hadn't perished. Since I am not in House Baratheon right now, I deduce that it has indeed perished, and that Ashersky didn't attempt to move into it.

I still have one movement left, so I can move to whichever house people think I should move to.

[Teproc]

Right, and how are we supposed to know you didn't move into House Baratheon ?

[Teproc]

I guess you're saying we can move you back.

Still, I don't like this one bit.

[pacovf]

Because houses perish when they have no members during a phase. The only way House Baratheon still exists right now, is if someone moved there during N2. Since everyone was accounted for in Stark and, I assume, Targaryen, the only person that could have moved to Baratheon is Ashersky. So either we are both scum, or I am telling the truth.

[Teproc]

Right, I didn't account for House Baratheon dying in night 2.

Why didn't you talk about it in the Stark QT ? It's not like we could have stopped you.

[pacovf]

Should I have talked about it? I thought about it, but didn't see any reason to do it.

[Teproc]

Should I have talked about it? I thought about it, but didn't see any reason to do it.

This seems strange to me coming from you, since yu've generally been a proponent of open information in this game.

I think about this in the reverse way : I don't see any downside to talking about it, so why keep it secret* ?

(keep it safe!)

[pacovf]

I have been a proponent of open information in the common thread, not in the QT. If you reread my posts in the QTs, you will notice that I was against talking there during the night.

I saw no downside to keeping it secret. And if there is more than one scum remaining, Ashersky and someone in Stark, I didn't want Ashersky to know that he would have to answer why he was in Baratheon ahead of time.

[ashersky]

If it wasn't pacovf, I'd say misguided town move.

But it's him, so scum move.

[pacovf]

If I were town, why would it be a misguided move? If you had moved to Baratheon, it would all but 100% confirm you are scum. Otherwise, no harm done.

[pacovf]

Also, why would I do this as scum? I gave a simple explanation of why this move would benefit town. I don't think such an explanation exists that fits a scum narrative.

[ashersky]

If I were town, why would it be a misguided move? If you had moved to Baratheon, it would all but 100% confirm you are scum. Otherwise, no harm done.

Right, of course.  But "if I was scum" is a pretty flimsy reason for any reason at this point.

And you could be sitting with your trigger on an arsonist.

With no way to know, your lynch is it.

vote: pacovf

[ashersky]

Also, why would I do this as scum? I gave a simple explanation of why this move would benefit town. I don't think such an explanation exists that fits a scum narrative.

Scum is in dire straits, man.  You gotta take the risk.

[XerxesPraelor]

So, ash, what's your result?

[pacovf]

Wait, did you follow when I said that the only way I could be in House Baratheon right now is if you were scum yourself?

[Witherweaver]

If it wasn't pacovf, I'd say misguided town move.

But it's him, so scum move.

Haha. Pretty sure at this point it's misguided town move.

But if you're so certain, why aren't you voting?  Isn't he slamdunk last scum to you?

[Witherweaver]

Wait, did you follow when I said that the only way I could be in House Baratheon right now is if you were scum yourself?

When did you put in your request?

[Witherweaver]

If it wasn't pacovf, I'd say misguided town move.

But it's him, so scum move.

Haha. Pretty sure at this point it's misguided town move.

But if you're so certain, why aren't you voting?  Isn't he slamdunk last scum to you?

Oh, I didn't finish catching up; you are voting.

[pacovf]

Wait, did you follow when I said that the only way I could be in House Baratheon right now is if you were scum yourself?

When did you put in your request?

During N2, so it came into effect at the beginning of D3.

[Witherweaver]

And I assume everyone can verify you were actually in your house during Night 2.

I agree here.  The only way Pacovf can be in Baratheon is if someone else was in Baratheon.  Unless there is a player that is absent from their House, that player can only be Ash.

Ash, what's your scum narrative for this?

For the record, Targaryen last night was: Me, Robz, Xerxes, and Voltaire.

[Witherweaver]

And I assume everyone can verify you were actually in your house during Night 2.

I agree here.  The only way Pacovf can be in Baratheon is if someone else was in Baratheon.  Unless there is a player that is absent from their House, that player can only be Ash.

Ash, what's your scum narrative for this?

For the record, Targaryen last night was: Me, Robz, Xerxes, and Voltaire.

I should say, the only way Pacovf can be in Baratheon now is if someone was in there during Night 2, and that someone would have to be Ash.

[Teproc]

I can confirm pacovf was in House Stark during N2 (along with Ichi, Hydrad, EgorK and myself).

I'm going to go with null on pacovf's move.

[pacovf]

And I assume everyone can verify you were actually in your house during Night 2.

I agree here.  The only way Pacovf can be in Baratheon is if someone else was in Baratheon.  Unless there is a player that is absent from their House, that player can only be Ash.

Ash, what's your scum narrative for this?

For the record, Targaryen last night was: Me, Robz, Xerxes, and Voltaire.

I should say, the only way Pacovf can be in Baratheon now is if someone was in there during Night 2, and that someone would have to be Ash.

That was the point of my test, yes. I know that it was probably unnecessary, because the likelihood of Ash being scum at this point is very low. But I am always working on a worst case scenario, and doing this test had no real drawback, so why not do it.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see anything scummy about Pacovf's move, and I actually think it's a town move, except for the obscure scenario where Pac and Ash are both scum.

But, tonight we can require Pac to move somewhere and Ash to move to Targaryen to protect against this case.

[Teproc]

The scum scenario is more that it's pacovf grabbing for towncred, which is certainly a possibility.

[Witherweaver]

The scum scenario is more that it's pacovf grabbing for towncred, which is certainly a possibility.

Eh, weird way to do it, and it's not really all that much cred.

[Robz888]

I gather from your comment that I have become houseless, since I haven't received any PM to that effect.

I asked Faust yesterday what would happen if someone were to try to move to an empty house. His answer was that one would become houseless.

Since it was impossible to know whether Ashersky would remain houseless or move to House Baratheon, having full control of an arsonist, I decided that it would be good for me to attempt to move to House Baratheon at the beginning of D3. That way, we could know whether House Baratheon had or hadn't perished. Since I am not in House Baratheon right now, I deduce that it has indeed perished, and that Ashersky didn't attempt to move into it.

I still have one movement left, so I can move to whichever house people think I should move to.

Vote: Pacovf

Absolute scum move, I agree with ash completely.

[pacovf]

I gather from your comment that I have become houseless, since I haven't received any PM to that effect.

I asked Faust yesterday what would happen if someone were to try to move to an empty house. His answer was that one would become houseless.

Since it was impossible to know whether Ashersky would remain houseless or move to House Baratheon, having full control of an arsonist, I decided that it would be good for me to attempt to move to House Baratheon at the beginning of D3. That way, we could know whether House Baratheon had or hadn't perished. Since I am not in House Baratheon right now, I deduce that it has indeed perished, and that Ashersky didn't attempt to move into it.

I still have one movement left, so I can move to whichever house people think I should move to.

Vote: Pacovf

Absolute scum move, I agree with ash completely.

Ash said that it was a scum move because it allowed me to control Baratheon. That is false, as has been pointed out already. If you think it is a scum move for some other reason, could you please expand?

[Robz888]

It's scummy to do any kind of discreet House checking thing involving the House with the one power that could possibly save scum at this point. Yes, it's far-fetched, but only a last desperate scum would try for such a thing.

[pacovf]

I could not get into Baratheon unless Ashersky saved it first. How does that fit into "pacovf is scum desperately trying to get an arsonist"?

[Robz888]

I could not get into Baratheon unless Ashersky saved it first. How does that fit into "pacovf is scum desperately trying to get an arsonist"?

Because you tried to get into the House with arsonist.

If this was a pure pro-town motive, you would have told us first. You're not an IC, you don't get to just do stuff and have us assume you are town. Scum move.

[pacovf]

You gave Ashersky the benefit of the doubt D1 and D2 when he was saying that he wouldn't follow any plans, and not giving any reason for it. Why the double standard here?

I am not "doing stuff and having you assume I am town". I am doing stuff that can help town and that would give me zero advantage if I were scum. I repeat, I didn't try to get into the house with the arsonist. Please reread what I did.

[Robz888]

WHy don't you explain again what you did. You tried to move into Baratheon and now have no House, correct?

[Witherweaver]

This is silly, though.  Even if what Pacovf did was no pro-town, how is it pro-scum?

[pacovf]

Fine.

If everyone followed Voltaire's plan, during N2 the situation would be the following:

Targ:
-Voltaire,
-Robz888
-XerxesPraelor
-witherweaver

Stark:
-Teproc
-pacovf
-Hydrad
-EgorK
-Ichimaru Gin

Houseless:
-Ashersky

However, there was no way to know whether Ash was really houseless, or if he moved to Baratheon during the night. If he didn't move, house Baratheon perished. If he did move, he would be stuck in Baratheon, because it was his last move. So I stayed in Stark during N2, to ensure that Baratheon died if everything went according to plan.

To test whether Ashersky indeed stayed houseless, I decided to move to Baratheon at the beginning of D3. If Ashersky had followed the plan, I would become houseless, and no harm done to anyone. If Ashersky had saved Baratheon, I would join him in the House, and reveal his move to everyone. In both cases, there was no way I could use the Baratheon house power, because I would have reached the house after the night phase, and left before the next night phase (I am waiting for a consensus about which house I should move to now). So I couldn't possibly get any advantage from this move as scum.

[Witherweaver]

There's no reason to lynch Pac today.

Pac, you've only moved once, right?

Require that he move back to either Stark or Targ and if he doesn't, lynch him tomorrow.  Unless Volt is scum, or it's an Ash/Pac team, no one can be primed yet.

[Hydrad]

someone could be primed... Volt was elected the house and he may have decided to prime someone.

[pacovf]

There's no reason to lynch Pac today.

Pac, you've only moved once, right?

Require that he move back to either Stark or Targ and if he doesn't, lynch him tomorrow.  Unless Volt is scum, or it's an Ash/Pac team, no one can be primed yet.

I agree with this, and I will move wherever people tell me to.
Although Volt could have primed someone even as town, judging from what he was saying during D1's twilight, but that's irrelevant unless Ash and I are both scum.

[Witherweaver]

I'm assuming town!Volt would not do Prime someone...

[Hydrad]

I'm assuming town!Volt would not do Prime someone...

really? Why not? If I was elected I might of. Isn't it like a town vig if he primes someone?

[Witherweaver]

I'm assuming town!Volt would not do Prime someone...

really? Why not? If I was elected I might of. Isn't it like a town vig if he primes someone?

Town vigs should almost never shoot Night 1*, and not really, no, because we don't know what's going to happen in the future or who will be in control.


What was Baratheon empowerment again?

*Or ever, according to Robz.

[Voltaire]

Null at worst on pacofv's move, he's a bad lynch today, I still think he's more likely town.

[Voltaire]

What was Baratheon empowerment again?

Strongman ignition.

[Witherweaver]

Did you admit whether or not you Primed someone?  Would you like to, here or in QT?

[XerxesPraelor]

Ash, claim your result please. It would be useful to have a result here.

[XerxesPraelor]

We can assume you checked someone suspicious and so it would be a good thing to take one person off the list.

[faust]

Vote Count 3.1

pacovf (2): ashersky, Robz888

Not Voting (8): pacovf, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc, XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends October 5 at 6 pm.

[Teproc]

I actually agree with XP. I don't see what's accomplished by withholding results here.

[Voltaire]

I actually agree with XP. I don't see what's accomplished by withholding results here.

I do!

[Teproc]

I actually agree with XP. I don't see what's accomplished by withholding results here.

I do!

Do you also think there's a point in withholding a Cop result ? Tracker I can see, Cop less so.

[Teproc]

Mostly it's that I don't want to reread this thread mltilple times, so I'd rather have the most info when I do that.

[pacovf]

Mostly it's that I don't want to reread this thread mltilple times, so I'd rather have the most info when I do that.

Tesenseroc.

Also, if you are waiting for people to do stuff before claiming your results, and people are waiting for your results to do stuff, we aren't getting anything done.

[Voltaire]

I actually agree with XP. I don't see what's accomplished by withholding results here.

I do!

Do you also think there's a point in withholding a Cop result ? Tracker I can see, Cop less so.

Cop result, yes, if it's an Innocent on someone we're considering lynching.

[Teproc]

Oh, and what about the Targ roleblocker ?

[Voltaire]

Flash poll: do you think the game would be balanced if there were four scum?

Newsflash: silver made a twilight post in the Baratheon QT saying (paraphrased): "Everything I said in-thread is true."

We can react to these while we wait.

[pacovf]

Flash poll: do you think the game would be balanced if there were four scum?

Depends on the powers of those scum, but I don't have enough experience to say. I don't think it would be far-fetched, though.

Newsflash: silver made a twilight post in the Baratheon QT saying (paraphrased): "Everything I said in-thread is true."

I wouldn't listen to a single thing silverspawn said after he got lynched. That way lies madness.

[Teproc]

Flash poll: do you think the game would be balanced if there were four scum?

Newsflash: silver made a twilight post in the Baratheon QT saying (paraphrased): "Everything I said in-thread is true."

We can react to these while we wait.

Right, there's that (the four scum theory). In separate scumteams, sure, but we have some evidence of there being only one, so I don't think so. 4-man scumteam is really strong.

The thing is, what does town have here ? A negative utility VT, a Tracker and a Cop. Both strong powers for sure, but then do you count the houses as pro-town or anti-town ?

I think houses ended up being pro-town this game, but maybe if we had chosen to empower Lannister it would hav ebeen a disaster, I don't know.

So basically my answer is that I think there's only one scum left.

As far as silver goes... sigh.

[Witherweaver]

Flash poll: do you think the game would be balanced if there were four scum?

Newsflash: silver made a twilight post in the Baratheon QT saying (paraphrased): "Everything I said in-thread is true."

We can react to these while we wait.

Maybe if one was a Traitor?

[Witherweaver]

Oh, and what about the Targ roleblocker ?

I think better to wait for Ash.

[Teproc]

Flash poll: do you think the game would be balanced if there were four scum?

Newsflash: silver made a twilight post in the Baratheon QT saying (paraphrased): "Everything I said in-thread is true."

We can react to these while we wait.

Maybe if one was a Traitor?

Good point, those are trendy these days.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So why are the PR's waiting to tell us their results again?
I find pacovf's move from the house surprising, but not necessarily scummy.

I don't really think it's a 4 man team at this point. If things had gone differently, scum would still have their Jailkeeper and might have taken control of one of the houses--which is a pretty huge power swing.

[Hydrad]

So why are the PR's waiting to tell us their results again?
I find pacovf's move from the house surprising, but not necessarily scummy.

I don't really think it's a 4 man team at this point. If things had gone differently, scum would still have their Jailkeeper and might have taken control of one of the houses--which is a pretty huge power swing.

I'm guessing it just feels super imbalanced because we hit scum day 1 and 2. So now town is in a amazing position.

[EgorK]

Checking in. Today was my youngest first birthday, I'll try to contribute tommorow

[Voltaire]

So why are the PR's waiting to tell us their results again?

Because we want to see who we decide to lynch first.

[XerxesPraelor]

But I already know I want to lynch the person we roleblocked. Can't ash just claim? Actually EgorK is an okay lynch. Where is he anyways?

[EgorK]

But I already know I want to lynch the person we roleblocked. Can't ash just claim? Actually EgorK is an okay lynch. Where is he anyways?

I really need to get avatar it seems. If my post is invisible with one post after it...

[XerxesPraelor]

Sorry - I did see you but since I'm reading on my phone I didn't see who it was and I couldn't tell who it was from the writing. I know note that you are here and will be active. You probably will be a short reread, so I'll try it in a bit.

[ashersky]

How about we figure an order of claims? 

1) House roleblock target
2) Cop result
3) Tracker result

That seems to make sense, right?  If Volt is testing me again, this works for him.

I am in agreement with Volt that I want more opinions down in writing before I reveal.  There are many reasons for that, from the "4-man team" theory to "scum is worried I caught them" theory.

[pacovf]

I am not going to do a full reread just before investigative results drop in, so I've just done a quick reread of Hydrad and EgorK, and I will just post my overall feelings:

-Hydrad: scummy scum, and I've been saying so since D1. He said PPS was scummy, then avoided his wagon like the pest, and jumped at the opportunity of not voting for him when PPS posted a very weak defense. Yesterday, he was basically giving town reads to most everybody, until it became clear it was between him and silver, and then he decided to vote for him. There's also a weird post of him in the Stark QT, saying that if Ashersky died tonight, we should lynch whoever got the Stark power.
-EgorK: basically absent during D1, aside from some strange setup analysis. Avoided the PPS wagon. Has been defending Hydrad since the beginning. But, he was the second on silver's wagon, and both PPS and silver wanted his lynch during D1. Town.

The ones I haven't attempted to reread:
-Teproc: strongest townread. Was instrumental in both PPS and silver wagons (first and last vote respectively).
-witherweaver. Was in both wagons (if we give him the "intent to hammer" in PPS's case). There's also the flavour mixup at the beginning. Strong townread.
-Voltaire: overall town play, and pushed PPS while the deadline was close. Has claimed tracker. Town.
-Asherky: nullish-town. Has claimed cop.
-Robz: meh. But Ashersky has investigated him and given a Realm-Aligned result.
-XerxesPraelor: his play and his claim lean null-townish. But silver was pushing for his lynch very hard as an alternative to PPS. Town.

If it's not Hydrad, which I think unlikely, I would look at Robz (despite the investigation result) or Ashersky. I don't trust PRs that much in a closed setup.

[Ichimaru Gin]

No read on me?

[pacovf]

Oh sorry, I knew I was forgetting someone.

-Ichimaru Gin: revived the wagon on PPS. Mostly town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh sorry, I knew I was forgetting someone.

-Ichimaru Gin: revived the wagon on PPS. Mostly town.

That's ok. It happens. Maybe scum points to me that I slipped under your radar though 

I really have forgotten who is in houses besides my own. So who needs to claim for the roleblocking target?

[pacovf]

Targ:
-Voltaire,
-Robz888
-XerxesPraelor
-witherweaver

Stark:
-Teproc
-Hydrad
-EgorK
-Ichimaru Gin

Houseless:
-Ashersky
-pacovf

[Teproc]

I'll do a reads list when I get the time, but meanwhile, here's something that's much more meaningful than silverspawn post-lynch WIFOM :

What do we tink of silver claiming to have targeted XP ?

[pacovf]

I don't think silver defends PPS D1 by bussing another partner. I think he claimed to have copped XerxesPraelor for some extra towncred ("why would I deny myself an easy mislynch?"). The way he said that it was the single most logical choice to cop, so he didn't really have a choice, and he would have claimed to cop him even if he was a scumpartner, leads me to believe he was trying to undo the IC he just created.

[pacovf]

Anybody interested in actually doing stuff? Just asking.

Vote: Hydrad

[EgorK]

Sorry, was busy at work today. Will have time tommorow I hope

[Teproc]

Ok, so let's see. My lynch pool for today is (and this is before I reread) :

- Hydrad. His flip in Legend of Zelda is making me nervous about this, but the evidence is too strong to ignore. He should probably be our lynch today.
- Robz : There's ash's result, but godfather is possible. Otherwise I have no reason to think he's town, so he's in there.
- Ichimaru : While he relaunched the PPS wagon, it was at a point where it could have been a bus thinking it would not get through. He then fought strongly against the silver lynch, so he could be scum.
- XP : XP got wagons and silverspawn's claim, but I actually can't remember what he did in this game, and his position on the PPS wagon could very easily be a bus.

People I won't lynch today :
- EgorK : Wagonned by both scum on day 1 and was te alternate lynch to PPS at the end
- pacovf : I had forgotten he was the one who put silver at L-1. Along with being on the PPS lynch, that's enough for me to give a pass today.
- Witherweaver : He's largely responsible for the PPS lynch by stopping the XP lynch, I just don't see why he'd do that as scum. Plus, he's an IC.
- Voltaire : I think he's town based on play, and his claim is highly believable
- ash : Again, highly believable claim, definitel off the table for today

[Witherweaver]

I'm not so convinced about EgorK.  Was he ever really in danger of being lynched?  The atlternate lynch to PPS was Pac after XP was off.

Vote: EgorK because why not?  And votes are cool.

[Teproc]

WW, since you're here : will someone claim the Targ roleblocker ? I'm tired of being ignored here.

[pacovf]

- pacovf : I had forgotten he was the one who put silver at L-1.

Not exactly true. Hydrad was the one who put him at L-1. I was third on the wagon (both WW and Ichi had been there and then left for Hydrad, then EgorK joined), but I briefly unvoted while he was at L-1 because I didn't know if all the house movements had been done.

For what it's worth, I would have voted for him earlier if I hadn't been VLA. You don't really need to believe me, but I did hint at it in the Stark N1 QT.

[Witherweaver]

Alright, well everyone has the same idea, which is to get people talking and on the record before claiming things.  But then no one ends up saying anything.

So, drumroll:

We Roleblocked Teproc last night

This means either:

(1) Teproc is scum.
(2) Scum tried to kill Ash.
(3) Ash is scum and didn't shoot.
(4) Someone else is scum and didn't shoot for framing purposes.

(Is there a point to differentiate (3) and (4)?  Not sure.)

[Voltaire]

vote: Hydrad

Yeah, we should get this claiming over with. I appreciate being allowed to go last!

PPE: Yay, claiming started! I'll claim immediately after ash, I promise.

[Teproc]

Well then. I guess my insistence in having you claim will look bad.

3 and 4 are basically not worth talking about. Obviously I now know it's 2, but you guys don't. This should be interesting, as I doubt ash or Volt targeted me...

[pacovf]

You are forgetting

(3.5) Ichimaru Gin is scum.

But (3) and (3.5) are basically included in (4), they are just the most likely possibilities if (4) is true. Not shooting doesn't frame anyone in as much as it gives towncred to people.

PPE : yeah, (3) and (4) are not worth talking about today.

[Hydrad]

Hmm I guess theres a chance it could be teproc? I will say that we didn't vote for hand of the king until the 24 hours had passed so that even if scum was in the room they wouldn't know who was the hand of the king. During the first 24 hours though It looked like teproc had a decently high chance of being hand of the king again so maybe he thought he could snipe ash or someone if he got the king?

I don't think its very likely though. Just thoughts

PPE:2

[Hydrad]

also I'm still town!

[pacovf]

I will say that we didn't vote for hand of the king until the 24 hours had passed so that even if scum was in the room they wouldn't know who was the hand of the king.

Fair point! I forgot about that. Remove (3.5), it doesn't really make much sense.

[Witherweaver]

Hmm I guess theres a chance it could be teproc? I will say that we didn't vote for hand of the king until the 24 hours had passed so that even if scum was in the room they wouldn't know who was the hand of the king. During the first 24 hours though It looked like teproc had a decently high chance of being hand of the king again so maybe he thought he could snipe ash or someone if he got the king?

I don't think its very likely though. Just thoughts

PPE:2

Huh?  I thought you had to vote in the first 24 hours?

[Teproc]

Nope. Night actions deadline is 24 hours but house action deadline is 48.

[Hydrad]

Also if its me thats scum that means that I would of had to target ash for the kill. (or no kill but in my situation thats even more of a death sentence. Some small WIFOM wouldn't save me at this point). In the QT last night I was really pushing a protect ash movement for our king. Why would I try to force people to protect ash and the target him right away. That would mean that I'm just playing a super poor game.

PPE:3

[Voltaire]

If you didn't vote in time, then nobody was Hand of the King/nobody had strongman. Can you check with faust if your action was strongman?

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

vote: Teproc

[pacovf]

First 48 hours for votes. PRs in first 24 hours. Teproc was the one that pointed it out in the QT.

PPE 3

[Teproc]

I only realized this in N2, we didn't do that on N1 btw. But any future house powers should always wait 24 hours before voting.

PPE : Yeah you were saying doctoring ash was obvious and necessary, which would be a great way to emphasize the WIFOM were you scum.

[Teproc]

If you didn't vote in time, then nobody was Hand of the King/nobody had strongman. Can you check with faust if your action was strongman?

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

vote: Teproc

Tu quoque ?

You really think it's more likely that I was roleblocked than *anyone else* tried to kill ash ?

[pacovf]

Also if its me thats scum that means that I would of had to target ash for the kill. (or no kill but in my situation thats even more of a death sentence. Some small WIFOM wouldn't save me at this point). In the QT last night I was really pushing a protect ash movement for our king. Why would I try to force people to protect ash and the target him right away. That would mean that I'm just playing a super poor game.

PPE:3

No. You were saying that protecting Ash was the obvious choice, and that if Ash died during N2, we should lynch our doctor just in case. That sounds to me like a desperate gambit to get a two for one if our doctor chose to protect Voltaire.

PPE 2

[pacovf]

Still prefer lynching Hydrad to Teproc. Hydrad targeting Ash makes sense, and his play has been overall scummy. Teproc has played a flawless town game. Don't want to lynch him today just because he was roleblocked.

[pacovf]

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

Wait what? Why? Remember what happened yesterday, when you were pushing Hydrad instead of silver? 

[Hydrad]

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

Wait what? Why? Remember what happened yesterday, when you were pushing Hydrad instead of silver? 

Its because of my impeccable towny play!

[pacovf]

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

Wait what? Why? Remember what happened yesterday, when you were pushing Hydrad instead of silver? 

Its because of my impeccable towny play!

I like this guy 

[Voltaire]

You really think it's more likely that I was roleblocked than *anyone else* tried to kill ash ?

No.

[Teproc]

You really think it's more likely that I was roleblocked than *anyone else* tried to kill ash ?

No.

Why are you voting for me then ?

[Voltaire]

Also if its me thats scum that means that I would of had to target ash for the kill. (or no kill but in my situation thats even more of a death sentence. Some small WIFOM wouldn't save me at this point). In the QT last night I was really pushing a protect ash movement for our king. Why would I try to force people to protect ash and the target him right away. That would mean that I'm just playing a super poor game.

PPE:3

No. You were saying that protecting Ash was the obvious choice, and that if Ash died during N2, we should lynch our doctor just in case. That sounds to me like a desperate gambit to get a two for one if our doctor chose to protect Voltaire.

PPE 2

Oh really! Which is it?

[Voltaire]

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

Wait what? Why? Remember what happened yesterday, when you were pushing Hydrad instead of silver? 

And I was wrong? What about it?

[pacovf]

unvote I forgot I don't think it's Hydrad.

Wait what? Why? Remember what happened yesterday, when you were pushing Hydrad instead of silver? 

And I was wrong? What about it?

That you haven't explained your change of heart on Hydrad.

[Voltaire]

You really think it's more likely that I was roleblocked than *anyone else* tried to kill ash ?

No.

Why are you voting for me then ?

Because we have time to check this.

Still waiting on ash's claim, and (believe it or not!) my result is probably affecting how I think.

[Voltaire]

That you haven't explained your change of heart on Hydrad.

It's easy. It depends on the position of the stars in the sky when you ask me about Hydrad.

I have a strong gut town read and a strong evidence scum read. This is pretty clear pretty much the whole game.

[Teproc]

You really think it's more likely that I was roleblocked than *anyone else* tried to kill ash ?

No.

Why are you voting for me then ?

Because we have time to check this.

Still waiting on ash's claim, and (believe it or not!) my result is probably affecting how I think.

Right I'm guessing your result clears someone in the lynch pool, but that still leaves other options.

By "check this", do you mean lynch me ?

PPE : I'm with Voltaire on Hydrad, though I have more confidence in the evidence than in my gut.

[pacovf]

It's easy. It depends on the position of the stars in the sky when you ask me about Hydrad.

I have a strong gut town read and a strong evidence scum read. This is pretty clear pretty much the whole game.

Ok, I'll ask again later then!

[Witherweaver]

Well if not Hydrad, then it's basically EgorK or Teproc.

I'm having trouble with Teproc.  Interactions with PPS MAYBE can be bussing, but that's at a pretty unprecedented level coming form Teproc.  But he also bussed Silver as well.

Plus there's this quote:

32 pages in, halfway through D1. I'm in tears.

This game is honestly the most fun I've had playing mafia in a long while.

I suggest setting pages to 50 posts btw.

Does not sound like scum!Teproc.. I think scum!Teproc sees Mafia as more work than fun... like me, Volt, etc., he likes being town.

[Witherweaver]

Too many "but"s.  That should say "And he also bussed Silver as well."  Hard to see him as their partners.. and we're not really looking for a second team.

[ashersky]

Remove all theories that include Ichias scum.

Ichi is realm-aligned.

[Teproc]

Ok, then Volt ? Clearing Hydrad I presume ?

[Teproc]

Why does everyone think XP is town again ?

[ashersky]

Why does everyone think XP is town again ?

His role.

With my result, he's the only guy off wagon that I think could be scum.

[Teproc]

Why does his role make him town ?

[Voltaire]

Ok, then Volt ? Clearing Hydrad I presume ?

Nope, I tracked ash again. Ash targeted IG.

Thinking was, eliminate conspiracies. I semi-discussed who to target with my QT.

This means ash can still be scum, but if so, he has to have a scum PR and chosen to use it instead of attempting to kill. Makes it unlikely he's a scum roleblocker, probably a scum "role related to the setup," as ash was talking about that a lot D1, making me think that was his PR, not cop. Also, when I asked my "how many PRs does scum have" ash said "probably one", I think, and that struck me as scummy. Also he claimed cop when we were expecting scum to fakeclaim a tracking role.

But we're not lynching ash today, again.

unvote

Time to lynch Hydrad, and get more PR results?

[Witherweaver]

Why does everyone think XP is town again ?

The way he's been playing, and how he was the  main wagon Day 1.

[Voltaire]

*scum rolecop

[Voltaire]

and *investigative role

[Voltaire]

Remove all theories that include Ichias scum.

Ichi is realm-aligned.

Why IG, ash?

[Teproc]

unvote

Why ?

@WW : Being a main wagon doesn't prevent you from being scum.

[Witherweaver]

unvote

Why ?

@WW : Being a main wagon doesn't prevent you from being scum.

But scum!Silver really really doesn't want to lynch scumpartner!PPS and instead wants to lynch scumpartner!XP?

[Teproc]

unvote

Why ?

@WW : Being a main wagon doesn't prevent you from being scum.

But scum!Silver really really doesn't want to lynch scumpartner!PPS and instead wants to lynch scumpartner!XP?

That's a fair point. I still haven't done my reread... I know I should but ugh.

Also it's probably just Hydrad, I was just expecting one of our PRs to have invesigated him.

vote : Hydrad

[Hydrad]

everyone should trust their gut! with all these claims though I'm actually not sure who might be scum... I guess pacofv/egork/teproc might be the top 3 for me. but all 3 don't feel super scummy to me...

[Teproc]

Volt, you claimed your result beforehand in your QT, correct ?

[Hydrad]

can I hope for another miracle like yesterday where I thought I was going to die and somehow didn't? quick. someone scumslip again or something!

[pacovf]

Time to lynch Hydrad, and get more PR results?

Yes! Although the second will probably not happen, because we will have won already!

[Witherweaver]

Volt, you claimed your result beforehand in your QT, correct ?

Confirmed

[Hydrad]

Vote: pacofv because through POE I'm running out of ideas...

[Voltaire]

Volt, you claimed your result beforehand in your QT, correct ?

Totally.

[Voltaire]

vote: Hydrad

pacof, you need to go to Stark I'd say.

[Voltaire]

everyone should trust their gut! with all these claims though I'm actually not sure who might be scum... I guess pacofv/egork/teproc might be the top 3 for me. but all 3 don't feel super scummy to me...

can I hope for another miracle like yesterday where I thought I was going to die and somehow didn't? quick. someone scumslip again or something!

Vote: pacofv because through POE I'm running out of ideas...

Yeah, it's Hydrad.

[pacovf]

pacof, you need to go to Stark I'd say.

Sending PM then.

everyone should trust their gut! with all these claims though I'm actually not sure who might be scum... I guess pacofv/egork/teproc might be the top 3 for me. but all 3 don't feel super scummy to me...

can I hope for another miracle like yesterday where I thought I was going to die and somehow didn't? quick. someone scumslip again or something!

Vote: pacofv because through POE I'm running out of ideas...

Yeah, it's Hydrad.

This is kinda the way he plays anyway though.

[Voltaire]

See, this is why Vigs are awesome. We could just shoot, like, 4 people tonight and we'd win.

[Hydrad]

How much guilt will you all feel when you should of trusted you gut and lynch an innocent townie.

No don't worry I'm ok with this lynch. I even suggested it yesterday if we didn't find scum today that you should lynch me. I don't want to somehow live till lylo and then get lynched because I seem super scummy.

[Witherweaver]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

[pacovf]

See, this is why Vigs are awesome. We could just shoot, like, 4 people tonight and we'd win.

Huh, who would you shoot, Clint?

[Teproc]

vote: Hydrad

pacof, you need to go to Stark I'd say.

Agreed. There's also consideration to have only ash and Voltaire in Targ and everyone else in Stark I think.


PPE : 6

[Voltaire]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

What do we gain by putting him in a House?

[Witherweaver]

How much guilt will you all feel when you should of trusted you gut and lynch an innocent townie.

This is the kind of a thing a guy says to make me want to lynch him.

No don't worry I'm ok with this lynch. I even suggested it yesterday if we didn't find scum today that you should lynch me. I don't want to somehow live till lylo and then get lynched because I seem super scummy.

He also says this.

[Teproc]

Voltaire : what you're saying is vigs are awesome when town is already winning. That's true.

[Witherweaver]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

What do we gain by putting him in a House?

Um... protecting against some weird Ash/Pac Bartheongate.

[pacovf]

PM sent!

[Voltaire]

vote: Hydrad

pacof, you need to go to Stark I'd say.

Agreed. There's also consideration to have only ash and Voltaire in Targ and everyone else in Stark I think.


PPE : 6

I'm not comfortable with that due to conspiracy-theory where then scum!ash has a roleblocker after killing me...

[Voltaire]

Voltaire : what you're saying is vigs are awesome when town is already winning. That's true.

Vigs can also be awesome when town is losing.

[Hydrad]

How much guilt will you all feel when you should of trusted you gut and lynch an innocent townie.

This is the kind of a thing a guy says to make me want to lynch him.

No don't worry I'm ok with this lynch. I even suggested it yesterday if we didn't find scum today that you should lynch me. I don't want to somehow live till lylo and then get lynched because I seem super scummy.

He also says this.

No I honestly think lynching me is the best town play. If I don't get lynched there will always be people thinking that I might be scum and will probably cause a bunch of people spending to much time looking at me when they need to be finding scum instead.

[Voltaire]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

What do we gain by putting him in a House?

Um... protecting against some weird Ash/Pac Bartheongate.

Hmmm. We can't put him in Stark, he can't be doctored. We can't put him in Targ, I can't track him.

Also Teproc, XP needs to be dead for Targ to be just me/ash.

[Teproc]

Voltaire : what you're saying is vigs are awesome when town is already winning. That's true.

Vigs can also be awesome when town is losing.

They can. Or they can pretty much lose you the game on spot.

PPE : He doesn't have any moves left ? Oh his role right.

[Witherweaver]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

What do we gain by putting him in a House?

Um... protecting against some weird Ash/Pac Bartheongate.

Hmmm. We can't put him in Stark, he can't be doctored. We can't put him in Targ, I can't track him.

Also Teproc, XP needs to be dead for Targ to be just me/ash.

Do you have to keep tracking Ash?

[Teproc]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

What do we gain by putting him in a House?

Um... protecting against some weird Ash/Pac Bartheongate.

Hmmm. We can't put him in Stark, he can't be doctored. We can't put him in Targ, I can't track him.

Also Teproc, XP needs to be dead for Targ to be just me/ash.

Do you have to keep tracking Ash?

He wants to have the option and definitely shouldn't answer this question...

[Teproc]

My idea was to make all the non-IC people (Voltaire and ash are ICs unless they're a scum team in my mind) targetable by our PRs, but XP can't move so whatever.

Specifically I don't like RObz being in Targ.

[pacovf]

We want to keep Ash houseless?

What do we gain by putting him in a House?

Um... protecting against some weird Ash/Pac Bartheongate.

So tell me, Ser Barristan Selmy, and tell me truly - does your heart burn with the shining light of R’hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?

[Voltaire]

Do you have to keep tracking Ash?

No, of course not. But I like having the option.

[faust]

Vote Count 3.2

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Hydrad
Hydrad (3): pacovf, Teproc, Voltaire
EgorK (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (3): XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Ichimaru Gin

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends October 5 at 6 pm.

[XerxesPraelor]

Why pacovf again? The only way I could see him being scum is if ash were too, and that's not possible at this point. Let's just lynch Hydrad today. vote:Hydrad

[Hydrad]

Why pacovf again? The only way I could see him being scum is if ash were too, and that's not possible at this point. Let's just lynch Hydrad today. vote:Hydrad

I did pacofv because hes the best I could come up with. But honestly I'm not sure who the last scum is.

I guess I should start putting my final reads now though

pacofv/egork are my top 2. and teproc is next I guess.

[Voltaire]

Hydrad, you're extremely active for someone whose reads seem to indicate you haven't been playing close attention to the game (I'm referring here to some reads you posted yesterday in the Barath QT, you probably know the ones I mean)

[XerxesPraelor]

Ooh - now that's the first thing that actually reads scum. Let's get to the lynch, guys.

PPE: Why does that matter?

[Voltaire]

PPE: Why does that matter?

Is this directed at me?

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah. It's fine you point it out, I'm just not sure where you're going with it.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad, you're extremely active for someone whose reads seem to indicate you haven't been playing close attention to the game (I'm referring here to some reads you posted yesterday in the Barath QT, you probably know the ones I mean)

ah maybe its because I'm doing most of this at work. So I'm reading and responding but don't have as much time to reread.

[Voltaire]

Yeah. It's fine you point it out, I'm just not sure where you're going with it.

I'm saying, it looks like he's having trouble faking reads. Which normally I don't buy as a scum tell, just as disinterested town, but he's been so active that shouldn't be possible. Ergo, my first sentence.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Thanks for making me an IC ash. I think that was a good call on your part given that I could already see me as a possible mislynch today--despite my obvious towniness.
And yes, let's lynch Hydrad. I don't know what I even posted before about not suspecting him as much, it was pretty late then.

I feel pretty confident he's the last scum.

[Hydrad]

you all wrong D:. but thats ok. I think we will still win.

[Voltaire]

Why were we thinking there's no godfather again? There was a reasonable explanation but I forget it.

[Voltaire]

And yes, let's lynch Hydrad. I don't know what I even posted before about not suspecting him as much, it was pretty late then.

I feel pretty confident he's the last scum.

You could help accomplish this by voting!

[Ichimaru Gin]

And yes, let's lynch Hydrad. I don't know what I even posted before about not suspecting him as much, it was pretty late then.

I feel pretty confident he's the last scum.

You could help accomplish this by voting!

right 
I wasn't sure how many votes he had on him though.

vote: Hydrad

[pacovf]

Why were we thinking there's no godfather again? There was a reasonable explanation but I forget it.

Was there?

I am not assuming that there isn't a godfather. Hydrad is the scummiest here, even ignoring Ash results.

PPE: L-1 on Hydrad

[faust]

Vote Count 3.3

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Hydrad
Hydrad (5): pacovf, Teproc, Voltaire, XerxesPraelor, Ichimaru Gin (L-1)
EgorK (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (1): EgorK

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends October 5 at 6 pm.

[pacovf]

I am interested in EgorK's opinion.

[Teproc]

Why were we thinking there's no godfather again? There was a reasonable explanation but I forget it.

There's probably no godfather because scum shot ash, and they would be more worried about you if they had a godfather.

That's only a valid reasoning from my PoV though.

[Witherweaver]

Why were we thinking there's no godfather again? There was a reasonable explanation but I forget it.

There's probably no godfather because scum shot ash, and they would be more worried about you if they had a godfather.

That's only a valid reasoning from my PoV though.

Well.. Ash clearing everyone (or the most likely) puts some pressure on said Godfather.  In fact, it would be good for the Godfather to kill Ash if he's Robz (or now Ichi), because they've already been cleared and your logic would make us think there is no Godfather.

[Voltaire]

Care to hammer, WW?

[Witherweaver]

Are we ready?  Nothing else to discuss?

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm fine with a hammer now.

[Witherweaver]

HAMMA TIME

Vote: Hydrad

Thoughts: I'm less convinced on Hydrad than I was a day ago.. he does sound now like his mislynch in Zelda.  On the other hand, he's aware of that, and he's aware we all just saw him get mislynched, so he could be trying to emulate it.

[Witherweaver]

EgorK doesn't stand out as scummy, but he's kind of the defaulted one if it's not Hydrad.

[Witherweaver]

Both EgorK and Hydrad would have had to bus Silver if they're partners.. I think Pacovf pointed out that any partner of PPS/Silver would have had to bus one of them.. I didn't go back and check that.

[Voltaire]

But Hydrad had that super-weak, someone had to point out to him to vote silver, silver bus. Part of the evidence-is-scummy side.

[Witherweaver]

I don't quite remember that. 

Flippy flip flip!

[pacovf]

Hmmmm, I would have liked to wait for EgorK's opinion before the hammer, but oh well. This might be over anyway (which would let me keep my 100% flawless victory record )

[Witherweaver]

Hmmmm, I would have liked to wait for EgorK's opinion before the hammer, but oh well. This might be over anyway (which would let me keep my 100% flawless victory record )

Yeah, but EgorK is on Euro time, and even when he's around he's not posting all that much.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Man I hope we're right. Even then, we have quite a few town bodies to act as buffers until he hunt down the last scum(s).
I feel pretty confident that we're right here though.

[pacovf]

Well, we didn't have to hammer Hydrad now. I think he would have answered a direct question.

Plus, I am on European time too, and here I am!

[Teproc]

Well, we didn't have to hammer Hydrad now. I think he would have answered a direct question.

Plus, I am on European time too, and here I am!

Yeah but Egork is in Russia, so you can add two hours to your time (Spain right ?). Which means he might not get on until tomorrow morning.

[Hydrad]

oh i'm hammered?

I'm still town

[Hydrad]

so gl though in finding last scum!

[Teproc]

so gl though in finding last scum!

We will.

[Voltaire]

Hmmmm, I would have liked to wait for EgorK's opinion before the hammer, but oh well. This might be over anyway (which would let me keep my 100% flawless victory record )

So you're admitting to being scum? And worried about what?

[Voltaire]

Hmmmm, I would have liked to wait for EgorK's opinion before the hammer, but oh well. This might be over anyway (which would let me keep my 100% flawless victory record )

So you're admitting to being scum? And worried about what?

ohmygod I thought your post was Hydrad, for some reason.

[Teproc]

Too bad we miss out on a flawless victory though. I don't think I've had one of those.

[Hydrad]

Too bad we miss out on a flawless victory though. I don't think I've had one of those.

Why didn't you all trust your gut D:

[Hydrad]

so ya.

still think its

egork/pacofv//// tep?

Dunno my reads have been horrible this game (even though I actually did unvote PPS because of VLA)

[pacovf]

Too bad we miss out on a flawless victory though. I don't think I've had one of those.

Why didn't you all trust your gut D:

Ack. Well, I am out of scumreads now, it's going to be difficult tomorrow.

[Teproc]

Too bad we miss out on a flawless victory though. I don't think I've had one of those.

Why didn't you all trust your gut D:

Ack. Well, I am out of scumreads now, it's going to be difficult tomorrow.

We'll get results (well at least one) tomorrow, PoE will get us there.

[pacovf]

Well, we didn't have to hammer Hydrad now. I think he would have answered a direct question.

Plus, I am on European time too, and here I am!

Yeah but Egork is in Russia, so you can add two hours to your time (Spain right ?). Which means he might not get on until tomorrow morning.

There's three hours of difference between Western Russia and Central European Time, while there's no difference between Spain and Poland, who would have thought?

See you again in the Stark QT!

[Hydrad]

I'm surprised everyone's believing that I'm town. Don't most scum lie when they are lynched? I still am town but thought some people wouldn't believe me

[pacovf]

Hydrad, are you lying when you say that you are town?

Hydrad, would you lie to me?

[Teproc]

Well first of all scum has less incentive to lie when the game is just over. They often do it but not always.

Also, I don't know you sound believable, and if you're scum the game is (probably) over anyway, so whatever.

[Witherweaver]

/ping Faust

[Hydrad]

Hydrad, are you lying when you say that you are town?

Hydrad, would you lie to me?

I haven't lied to you!

Well first of all scum has less incentive to lie when the game is just over. They often do it but not always.

Also, I don't know you sound believable, and if you're scum the game is (probably) over anyway, so whatever.

Ah I guess I forgot that if I was scum the game would most like be over.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 3.Final

pacovf (3): ashersky, Robz888, Hydrad
Hydrad (6):pacovf, Teproc, Voltaire, XerxesPraelor, Ichimaru Gin, Witherweaver


Not Voting (1): EgorK

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Twilight! Faust will flip when he's back on.

[faust]

Jon

Standing on the icy top of the Wall again felt strange. It seemed like ages ago since he left his service on request of his brother Robb, who was crowned king after Stannis' sudden death.

He was glad he could finally convince Robb to take a trip to the Wall. The Night's Watch was still in urgent need of men, and now that Westeros was at peace again, it seemed a good time to build defenses against the darkness that grew north of the Wall.

Jon sat there, lost in his thoughts, for some time, when he heard a voice shouting behind him.

"Lord Hand!"

The title still had a strange sound for Jon, and it took him some time to realize that it was he who was addressed. A smile formed on his lips when he saw the man who was running towards him.

"Samwell Tarly", he exclaimed, "there is no need for you to call me by that title. I am still Jon to you."

"But... but you are not", responded Sam. "You are the second man in the Realm now. Anyway, I have urgent news. We have just received a raven from King's Landing."

Jon took the letter. Dark wings, dark words, he thought. The news were even more shocking than he anticipated. The dragon girl Daenerys Targaryen had apparently landed with a huge army and taken King's Landing by surprise. The letter was signed by Davos Seaworth, acting Hand during their trip to the wall. It was covered with dark red dots.

Hydrad has been lynched. He was Davos Seaworth, the Vanilla Lord, sworn to House Stark.

Daenerys of House Targaryen sits on the Iron Throne.

Night 3 has begun and lasts 72 hours. Night action due as usual.

THREAD LOCKED!

[faust]

Just a heads up, due to availability issues, Im planning to start the day early (around 11 am). If there's any problem with that, please contact me.

[faust]

Daenerys

The halls of the Red Keep still seemed dark and gloomy compared to the magnificent pyramids of Meereen. So this was home, the home she always wanted to return to. Why didn't she feel at home? Was this really the place she was meant to be? If I look back, I am lost. There was no time to ponder upon such questions, not with the enemy nearby.

"Robb Stark is moving towards King's Landing with a great host", reported Ser Barristan. "And many men within the city have not yet accepted our rule. Even with the dragons, I believe we cannot win a direct battle."

"What would you have me do then?"

"I think it would be best to retreat for now. Move your forces to Dorne and the Reach; this is where we have our friends. We can reform our groups and prepare to face the enemy."

"You propose that the Mother of Dragons retreats like a coward?", Daario Naharis exclaimed. "Now that she has finally obtained what was hers by right all along?"

"It is just a temporary movement", Barristan Selmy responded. "Given enough time, we are certain to gather our strength and can move to break the Stark host."

"It is decided then", Daenerys concluded. "We will abandon King's Landing and move the Dorne. A small number shall remain here to face the northmen. The Tyrells shall remain here, in control of our forces."

Olenna Redwyne, the Queen of Throns, gasped. "But that is leading us to our certain death!"

"Someone has to remain", Daenerys responded, unmoved. "Surely it would be an honor to give your life in service of your Queen."

Voltaire has been killed. Has was Olenna Redwyne, the Realm-aligned Tracker, sworn to House Targaryen.

Robb of House Stark sits on the Iron Throne.

Day 4 has begun. THREAD UNLOCKED!

Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (8): pacovf, ashersky, Witherweaver, Teproc, XerxesPraelor, EgorK, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends October 10 at noon.

[XerxesPraelor]

Our house roleblocked teproc.

[Witherweaver]

So, if it really is a 3-team scum, Teproc is cleared. 

[Teproc]

Yay, I guess.

[Witherweaver]

Stark QT shares?

[Teproc]

I wasn't chosen because of the roleblock risk, so we went for Ichi. I don't know who he targeted.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I targeted Ashersky again for protection, because I thought WIFOM might point to an Ash nightkill. I guess I miscalculated that one.

[pacovf]

Quite a shame that Voltaire died, but at least Teproc is semi-cleared from this (barring 4-man scumteam).

Let's see what Ash found out (unless he wants to wait again).

[Witherweaver]

Did EgorK say much in QT?

[Teproc]

He said we lynched Hydrad too fast and it was classic town!Hydrad but that we'll probably win anyway.

Then he has a post about the problems with giving me the role (being roleblocked) or giving it to Ichi (there was a concern that he wouldn't be here to submit his order).

That's it.

[XerxesPraelor]

So POE leaves ash, pacovf, and EgorK . Killing Voltaire really makes sense for scum!ash, because that way he can kill ICs with impunity.

vote: ash

[Teproc]

So your theory is that last night ash nokilled and roleblocked Ichi (or whatever else) ?

[XerxesPraelor]

Rolecopped is my guess.

[Teproc]

And you think that's more likely than, say, pacovf being scum ?

You understand that killing Voltaire is the obvious play given that we can trust his results a lot more than ash's. Not only because the way the claims work out, Voltaire was less likely to be scum (and that's not accounting for play), but also because we already have a dead ninja, whereas we could still have a Godfather.

[Teproc]

Well it's the "obvious play" in that it's the kill scum wants. But scum is desperate enough to just not care about who's the most likely to be targeted and just shoot whoever they really want to shoot I think. Which didn't work on N2, but did on N3.

[XerxesPraelor]

Town does have a roleblocker and a doctor along with a tracker, so a cop seems a bit too good if all scum has is a jailkeeper, 1-shot ninja, and godfather.

PPE: so why didn't we follow the cop with Voltaire instead of ash?

[XerxesPraelor]

Pacovf looks quite towny and ash scummy just from gut.

[Teproc]

Maybe we should have. I thought it would be better to WIFOM scum, and it did work in getting us a nokill N2 (well unless you're an ash conspiracy theorist).

Why does pacovf look quite townie ?

[EgorK]

If everyone's scum pool is me, pac and ash we have time to lynch all 3 barring double night kills

[Witherweaver]

Pretty much.

Doesn't take into account Godfather on Robz or Ichi though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So who are we going to lynch today? And when is it likely that Ash will show up with his result?

[ashersky]

I copped Voltaire, given he kept surviving.  Realm-aligned.

I like XP as scum, have for awhile.  Coming out swinging and voting for the cop is pretty crazy, too.

Remember, with the tracker gone, follow-the-cop is fully on with no need for doc wifom.  They are in a tougher spot now.

[Witherweaver]

I'd lynch Ash before XP here.  Actually, I'd lynch anyone before XP.

[pacovf]

I copped Voltaire, given he kept surviving.  Realm-aligned.

I like XP as scum, have for awhile.  Coming out swinging and voting for the cop is pretty crazy, too.

Remember, with the tracker gone, follow-the-cop is fully on with no need for doc wifom.  They are in a tougher spot now.

If Voltaire had been scum, he would have had to correctly guess who you targeted twice, and the second time he could have pretended to track a VT instead and take no risks. So you knew he was town, unless you want to pretend he was a scum tracker. You copping him makes zero sense.

Scum is not in a tougher spot now than before. We (supposedly) had two investigative PRs, now we only have (supposedly) one. The fact that before they had 50% chance of hitting a PR because of WIFOM, and now 0%, doesn't change that they are better off than before.

Honestly, this first post of you today is strangely self-serving.

I'd lynch Ash before XP here.  Actually, I'd lynch anyone before XP.

Anyone? Even Teproc?

So who are we going to lynch today?

Not Teproc, not witherweaver. Probably not XP or you. The likely lynches today are me and EgorK, but I would take a look at Robz and Ashersky. Neither have done anything that makes me think they are town.

I know what I should do right now, but... will I ever muster the courage to reread this leviathan of a thread?

[ashersky]

If I was scum, I knew somehow who to claim to cop based on Voltaire's QT reveal.  I couldn't know who he would say there.

I should have copped him last night, given he's Voltaire. 

[ashersky]

Also, claiming to have copped Voltaire when he died is weak scum sauce.  I have no need to tell the truth if the tracker can't call me out.  So why wouldn't I just claim a result on anyone else?

[pacovf]

If I was scum, I knew somehow who to claim to cop based on Voltaire's QT reveal.  I couldn't know who he would say there.

I should have copped him last night, given he's Voltaire.

If you are scum, you have a PR and you targeted someone with it. No need to guess.

Also, claiming to have copped Voltaire when he died is weak scum sauce.  I have no need to tell the truth if the tracker can't call me out.  So why wouldn't I just claim a result on anyone else?

If you are the last scum, and you give a result on living people, you have to give a Realm-Aligned result, which will end up shrinking the lynch pool so much that you'll end up lynched. Not today, maybe not tomorrow, but definitely the day after. Giving results on dead people doesn't have that problem.

[ashersky]

Oh no.  You caught me.  Woe is me.  Whatever shall I do?

vote: ashersky

[pacovf]

Yay, I win?

[XerxesPraelor]

I think he claimed to cop Voltaire just in case there's a one-shot tracker / watcher who saw him kill Voltaire.

PPE: this is the other case on ash - acting consciously very like himself. Self-voting is easy to replicate.

[pacovf]

You haven't addressed the fact that you had to know that Voltaire was town, though.

[pacovf]

Erm that was directed at Ash.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah; he obviously was a tracker and EgorK / pacovf would be a way better choice.

[XerxesPraelor]

Now that we have full follow-the-cop, (if ash is town), ash pretty much has to target EgorK, okay? (Or pacovf if we lynch EgorK)  There's no point in concealing who you're going to cop now.

[XerxesPraelor]

I though of a town narrative for ash in the night, but it doesn't make sense now.

[Witherweaver]

Scum narrative for Ash is fitting well.. Night 2 he can't (Role) Cop and kill,  so he chooses to Cop because he knows Volt will track him.  Last night he kills Volt.  Chooses to admit targetting Volt because "why would I do that as scum?" defense.

Now.. in this scenario, did Ash/Silver plan to bus?  Did Ash get surprised by Silver's claim and had to counter it?

Last part gives me pause.

[Witherweaver]

And, I have to reread but I think he'd have to know he was claiming Cop way back on Day 1.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, claiming to target Volt makes sense by what Pac said. He clears EgorK, we mislynch Pac, we turn to him.

This way, we mislynch EgorK and Pac and Ash tries to argue Robz or Ichi is GF for a win

[pacovf]

And, I have to reread but I think he'd have to know he was claiming Cop way back on Day 1.

Yes, he softclaimed fairly early in D1, before there was any suspicion on him. That's the one thing that gives me pause.

[ashersky]

This is why I have zero motivation to sign up for games anymore...the knack town has for royally screwing up a great situation.

Please just lynch me and stop wasting your time on these insane theories.

[Witherweaver]

This is why I have zero motivation to sign up for games anymore...the knack town has for royally screwing up a great situation.

Please just lynch me and stop wasting your time on these insane theories.

It's not that insane.  You have to admit copping Volt is not a good time move vs. Egork/Pac. Or, at least it seems that way to me.

[Witherweaver]

Anf what do you suggest instead?  XP does not fit at all

[EgorK]

Volt is such illogical choice this almost make me to think ash lied about his target tonight to get reactions

[Teproc]

Everyone stop being stupid.

ash stop daring town to mislynch you. Remember your mislynch in Legend of Zelda ? You can cry all you want, but it was your fault as much as the townies who mislynched you. If you're town, you have a responsibility not to be mislynched, and as a Cop, a responsibility to not use your power in asinine ways like copping freaking Voltaire.

Everyone else, stop being paranoid. Maybe ash is scum who no killed in N2, but come on, there's no way that's the most likely possibility. I still need to reread, but ash is not today's lynch. The later we lynch him, the least damaging a cop mislynch is since we have more trustworthy results. If he's scum, it doesn't matter when we lynch him.

[ashersky]

If Volt and I were both still alive today, you better believe copping Volt would have been the most important move I could have made.  He got increasingly scummy yesterday, to the point that I felt I had to confirm him.  I didn't even gave to think about it -- pm to Faust was immediate with volt as the target.  If someone was playing the town for fools, it was him, and I needed to remove that possibility.

If any other player in this game claimed cop, and the results so far, there'd be zero doubt.  But since it's ashersky "the crazy scum mastermind" there is nothing but doubt.  And that is 100% unfair to me the person and the player, and to the town itself, since you are taking what is supposed to be a power role FOR town and turning into a Negative utility role.  You all seem to think I'm great at scum, too, which is just wrong if you look at my sig.

I mean, scum gets to leave me alive because no one believes me and they know town will just lynch me.

So, lynch the cop since it's screwing up your ability to play the game.  You all know my reads.  Pacovf is scummiest based on my gut and his words, XP is scummiest based on his claim.

[Teproc]

Why did you never investigate pacovf, someone you've screamed is scum since day 1 ?

And yes, people are mor suspicious of you than of other people because you're a bolder scum player than most. How is that unfair ?

[Teproc]

Why did you never investigate pacovf, someone you've screamed is scum since day 1 ?

And yes, people are mor suspicious of you than of other people because you're a bolder scum player than most. How is that unfair ?

To clarify : you are basically the only scum pler for which I can even entertain the scenario of no killing in N2. Well maybe not the only one, but close. This is in no way unfair, it's your meta.

[ashersky]

Why did you never investigate pacovf, someone you've screamed is scum since day 1 ?

And yes, people are mor suspicious of you than of other people because you're a bolder scum player than most. How is that unfair ?

I will gladly just lynch pacovf.  I don't need to investigate him.  I cop people I am unsure of.

I don't think I'm bolder than most, for one.  But that shouldn't affect my ability to play town roles.  That's like saying I can only play if I roll scum.

[ashersky]

Why did you never investigate pacovf, someone you've screamed is scum since day 1 ?

And yes, people are mor suspicious of you than of other people because you're a bolder scum player than most. How is that unfair ?

To clarify : you are basically the only scum pler for which I can even entertain the scenario of no killing in N2. Well maybe not the only one, but close. This is in no way unfair, it's your meta.

Didn't someone even write down the idea in thread on D2?  Not that hard to figure out.

And I always kill as scum -- you can look that up.

[Teproc]

Why did you never investigate pacovf, someone you've screamed is scum since day 1 ?

And yes, people are mor suspicious of you than of other people because you're a bolder scum player than most. How is that unfair ?

I will gladly just lynch pacovf.  I don't need to investigate him.  I cop people I am unsure of.

I don't think I'm bolder than most, for one.  But that shouldn't affect my ability to play town roles.  That's like saying I can only play if I roll scum.

IT has nothing to do with your ability to play town... it has everything to do with people being ready to believe conspiracy theories about you because you've proven you're capable of unconventional plays.

You ARE unsure of pacovf. You DO NOT know his alignment. You do agree that a scum result is better than a town result, yes ? Why not get the best shot at a scum result then ?

HEre's my real problem with your town play : you make it about you. How you are poor, hated ash that everyone always wants to lynch. Regardless of your alignement, this makes the game unpleasant.

[Teproc]

Whatever, I don't think you did it anyway. But you're not being helpful by self-voting, that's for sure.

[ashersky]

Well, if me being in the game makes it unpleasant, lynching me makes sense for making it pleasant, no?

[Teproc]

Well, if me being in the game makes it unpleasant, lynching me makes sense for making it pleasant, no?

I don't policy lynch. I don't want you to stop being in the game, I want you to stop with the AtE.

[ashersky]

I could have just lied about my target and said pacovf was scum or just randomly cleared someone. But lying as town is anti-town, so I didn't.

You think it's all about me, but it's not.  It's all about my team, and here that's town.  My teammates aren't listening though, and that makes it pretty damn hard to succeed.

You want to know what we should do?

1) lynch pacovf.
2) doctor me if we have night.
3) lynch based on my next result.
4) repeat until the game ends.

But no one will do that, because it is me.  We literally have follow-the-cop available.  If I'm not strongman doctored, you caught scum.  If I survive every night, we will catch scum.

Will anyone listen?  No need to talk, just vote.

[Teproc]

I agree with that plan. Well I'm unsure about the pacovf part, I'll hopefuly have more clarity after rereading (which I'll do tomorrow).

[ashersky]

I agree with that plan. Well I'm unsure about the pacovf part, I'll hopefuly have more clarity after rereading (which I'll do tomorrow).

Well, replace Pacovf with anyone that isn't you or Ichi (assuming we trust the RB), still works.

[ashersky]

I agree with that plan. Well I'm unsure about the pacovf part, I'll hopefuly have more clarity after rereading (which I'll do tomorrow).

Well, replace Pacovf with anyone that isn't you or Ichi (assuming we trust the RB), still works.

Or Robz.

[Teproc]

I agree with that plan. Well I'm unsure about the pacovf part, I'll hopefuly have more clarity after rereading (which I'll do tomorrow).

Well, replace Pacovf with anyone that isn't you or Ichi (assuming we trust the RB), still works.

Or Robz.

Yeah, he's a real problem in this game, because I expect he'll still be somewhat V/LA next week, and his relative inactivity makes him harder to read. Again, need to reread first.

[ashersky]

vote: pacovf

[ashersky]

I agree with that plan. Well I'm unsure about the pacovf part, I'll hopefuly have more clarity after rereading (which I'll do tomorrow).

Well, replace Pacovf with anyone that isn't you or Ichi (assuming we trust the RB), still works.

Or Robz.

Yeah, he's a real problem in this game, because I expect he'll still be somewhat V/LA next week, and his relative inactivity makes him harder to read. Again, need to reread first.

I've cleared Robz and Ichi.  We definitely shouldn't lynch my town results ahead of the unknowns.

[Teproc]

Right, I forgot you had a result on Robz.

Godfather is a very real possibility though.

[ashersky]

Right, I forgot you had a result on Robz.

Godfather is a very real possibility though.

I agree.  I don't think we catch Robz until better PoE though.  Dude hasn't been active enough to leave a trail.

[pacovf]

Teproc has already said most of what I would like to say, and I especially like this:

ash stop daring town to mislynch you. Remember your mislynch in Legend of Zelda ? You can cry all you want, but it was your fault as much as the townies who mislynched you. If you're town, you have a responsibility not to be mislynched, and as a Cop, a responsibility to not use your power in asinine ways like copping freaking Voltaire.

About the rest, I know Ashersky has claimed cop, there's no reason to lynch him today, I never said I wanted to lynch him. Heck, he was the only one voting for himself. It's better to keep him alive, with a little bit of luck he will get us a scum result before we are in LYLO.

What I am doing is pointing out that Ash had to know that Voltaire was town. Not "it is very likely that Voltaire is town", but "it is 99.99999% probable that Voltaire is town"; Voltaire claimed to have tracked Ash twice, and gave the correct results before Ash shared them: the only way he wasn't a tracker was if both Ash and Volt were scum, which isn't a possibility that Ash can entertain. So why cop Voltaire?

And Ash, finding scum is half the game, the other half is convincing people that you've found scum. You can be all 100% sure you want that I am scum (apparently based on N0 information, but whatever), if you don't convince others you are right, there is no "I will gladly just lynch pacovf.  I don't need to investigate him", because people won't follow you.

I could have just lied about my target and said pacovf was scum or just randomly cleared someone. But lying as town is anti-town, so I didn't.

Giving a result on someone is bad for you if you are scum. If you say he is scum and we lynch him, things look terrible for you the day after. If you say he is town-aligned, you get PoEd the last day. Better not to give any useful result.

Last thing:

3) lynch based on my next result.

Could you expand on what this means?




Anyway, Robz not being around is unfortunate, because if he is a Godfather, he can lurk-cruise to victory. Don't know if there is anything we can do about it. He has been very absent in this game, and hasn't done anything controversial. Swooping in at the last second of D1 to save XP and vote for PPS is something he has going on for him, though.

EgorK was bussed by PPS and silver (PPS started the wagon), so I am somewhat against lynching him. The same reasoning times 10 applies to XP. Teproc and ww should be obvtown by now, and I don't see Ichi do a nokill in N2.

So yeah, not really sure who I want to lynch today. I guess I am between Ash (who I don't want to lynch today), Robz (currently V/LA) and EgorK... vote: EgorK for now? This may change after a reread.

[ashersky]

It means lynch my target if scum, reduce lynch pool if town.

[faust]

Vote Count 4.1

ashersky (1): XerxesPraelor
pacovf (1): ashersky
EgorK (1): pacovf

Not Voting (5): Witherweaver, Teproc, EgorK, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends October 10 at noon.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah - follow the cop doesn't work if there's a chance the cop is scum. We can probably mislynch one time before lynching ash, but really, what's the point. He's so obviously scum. There was no chance Voltaire was scum, based on his claim. He was a horrible target for last night. I bet people even think it was worse than me doctoring Hydrad in James Bond, and I almost got lynched over that.

[XerxesPraelor]

Can we please just lynch scum now? Ash might have something up his sleeve - there's a risk to waiting.

[XerxesPraelor]

It means lynch my target if scum, reduce lynch pool if town.

That only works if you target someone in the lynch pool which you have never done.

[ashersky]

It means lynch my target if scum, reduce lynch pool if town.

That only works if you target someone in the lynch pool which you have never done.

What game are you playing?  Until Volt, everyone I've investigated was alive to be cleared, and therefore part of the lynch pool.

[ashersky]

There was no chance Voltaire was scum, based on his claim.

Only scum can claim this.

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, there was an incredibly low chance he was scum, based on his claim and yours. Happy?

[ashersky]

I am Daenerys Stormborn, the Mother of Dragons.

I may not switch houses, and I become the Hand of the King automatically if I'm still alive while Targayen gets in charge. There may be additional things.

This is the sole reason anyone finds XP towny, right?  The "scum can't have that role" argument?  That's what fakeclaims are for.

[ashersky]

Okay, there was an incredibly low chance he was scum, based on his claim and yours. Happy?

And as mentioned, if he and I were both here today, I'd be absolutely happy to have a result on him.  While he was confirming my targeting, no one was confirming his alignment.

[XerxesPraelor]

It means lynch my target if scum, reduce lynch pool if town.

That only works if you target someone in the lynch pool which you have never done.

What game are you playing?  Until Volt, everyone I've investigated was alive to be cleared, and therefore part of the lynch pool.

But they weren't ones we were at all likely to lynch. (And they weren't the ones you thought most likely to be scum) Only copping robz again would have made less sense.


PPE: also, I was pushed as a lynch by both scum, helped lynch them both (even though it would have been consistent with my reads to not vote them), and 1 role like that is guaranteed to be in the setup.

PPE2: But he must have been a tracker (there's no way he successfully guessed your targets) and was the only person capable of confirming your alignment. (By tracking you to someone other than the kill)

[XerxesPraelor]

We're at an even number, let's no lynch so ash can get a "result".

[XerxesPraelor]

vote: no lynch

[ashersky]

That's actually a good point.

vote: no lynch

[pacovf]

While I agree with everything XP is saying (although he didn't really help lynch silver), I am a bit surprised by how strongly he's pushing Ashersky. Right now, I don't know what is more unlikely: Ash doing a nokill in N2, or Ash somehow not noticing that Voltaire had to be town (from his PoV) and wasting a cop opportunity on him. Regardless of whether Ash is scum or not though, he has claimed cop, so it's better to keep him alive. Hopefully he will catch scum before we are forced to decide whether we want to lynch him or not.

Something else:

I am Daenerys Stormborn, the Mother of Dragons.

I may not switch houses, and I become the Hand of the King automatically if I'm still alive while Targayen gets in charge. There may be additional things.

This is the sole reason anyone finds XP towny, right?  The "scum can't have that role" argument?  That's what fakeclaims are for.

Up until today, you were a strong defender of XP being town based on his role. What has changed?

The no lynch argument seems good, so I too vote: no lynch (that's L-2)

[Witherweaver]

XP being Mafia means Silver's day 1 argument was "Don't lynch my partner PPS, lynch my partner XP instead!" and being very, very insistent on it. I do not believe that's a first-time scum play.

XP could be a traitor, but 2 mafia + traitor isn't enough, I think, and 3 mafia+traitor means there is still someone else.

Plus, XP sounds just like town! XP.

[Witherweaver]

I think the role is in no way indicative of town of scum.  His role is related to his flavor, which is independent of alignment.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Gosh, I can understand Ash here some. I really don't have a good idea of who is likely scum here. I agree with Ash about not being too sure that XP is town--and similarly with WW, it makes me nervous when people are given semi-ICish status for reasons that I don't really think warrant it. I think the last scum could easily be playing a very strong game and not be who we suspect it is (EgorK is my major suspect currently). I could also see Godfather Robz. I think he's lurked more this game than EgorK, but he hasn't gotten anywhere near the amount of suspicion for it.

[Witherweaver]

But Volt had to be a tracker.  He correctly knew Ash's night targets on two consecutive nights.  He claimed this in the QT before Ash claimed.  Him guessing correctly both nights is so unlikely it isn't worth considering.

Volt being a Tracker was undeniable.  Not being a Town Tracker is... unheard of, I think.

[XerxesPraelor]

Actually, I think the no-lynch is actually better saved for later when the pool is smaller. Except for that I can't see anyone besides ash being scum at this point. Maybe godfather robz, but that seems unlikely. I'd actually just like to lynch ash.

[pacovf]

and similarly with WW, it makes me nervous when people are given semi-ICish status for reasons that I don't really think warrant it.

He was second on PPS wagon, and didn't move from there. He saved XP when it looked like he was going to be lynched, and PPS died because he was the alternative lynch (I was the alternative alternative lynch). The next day he bussed silver. I don't know, what else do you want?

I think the role is in no way indicative of town of scum.  His role is related to his flavor, which is independent of alignment.

I think there is info to be gleaned about the setup from this role (e.g., could XP have been Daenerys, Mafia Jailkeeper?), but I don't really want to second-guess Faust, so I would just ignore it when considering alignment. Still, Ash was saying that it was a town role, and now he is saying the opposite, I would like to know why.

BTW, the role was confirmed this night, right? XP became Hand of the King without a vote?

Actually, I think the no-lynch is actually better saved for later when the pool is smaller. Except for that I can't see anyone besides ash being scum at this point. Maybe godfather robz, but that seems unlikely. I'd actually just like to lynch ash.

Why is a no-lynch better later?

[Ichimaru Gin]

and similarly with WW, it makes me nervous when people are given semi-ICish status for reasons that I don't really think warrant it.

He was second on PPS wagon, and didn't move from there. He saved XP when it looked like he was going to be lynched, and PPS died because he was the alternative lynch (I was the alternative alternative lynch). The next day he bussed silver. I don't know, what else do you want?

No. I feel really confident that he's town based on reads that you mentioned. I still doubt the whole flavor mix-up making him an IC though, which was what I was referring to.

I really want to believe you're town and some of the stuff Ash has done recently is fairly scummy. I'm not sure, it'd be nice to hear more from EgorK and Robz (who is VLA I think).

[ashersky]

Everyone else said XP had a role only town could have.  I kept saying its super dangerous for scum to have it.

If he's Hand, that means he won't strongman protect me, right?  So he will just let scum kill me if he actually is town.

[Witherweaver]

Everyone else said XP had a role only town could have.  I kept saying its super dangerous for scum to have it.

If he's Hand, that means he won't strongman protect me, right?  So he will just let scum kill me if he actually is town.

XP is in Targ; Targ has Roleblock, not protect.

I don't believe that any conclusions on XP's alignment based upon his role are valid.  It doesn't provide any evidence that he's town.. and yes if he's scum then it presents a problem (albeit not an insurmountable one).  I believe XP is town based on how he has played and his interactions.

[ashersky]

Everyone else said XP had a role only town could have.  I kept saying its super dangerous for scum to have it.

If he's Hand, that means he won't strongman protect me, right?  So he will just let scum kill me if he actually is town.

XP is in Targ; Targ has Roleblock, not protect.

I don't believe that any conclusions on XP's alignment based upon his role are valid.  It doesn't provide any evidence that he's town.. and yes if he's scum then it presents a problem (albeit not an insurmountable one).  I believe XP is town based on how he has played and his interactions.

There's the problem where he role blocks me, no kills, then gets me mislynched.

[Witherweaver]

That's not a problem.. we just lynch XP.  A better scenario than us lynching you today.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, XP/Ash not happening today.

We all need to actually go read for interactions.

[ashersky]

That's not a problem.. we just lynch XP.  A better scenario than us lynching you today.

If that was guaranteed to happen, then okay.

But I can see the "I really thought he was scum because it's ash" argument working to get him some pity points and he goes on to win.

[ashersky]

Anyway, XP/Ash not happening today.

We all need to actually go read for interactions.

I think no lynch, get another result makes more sense.

[Witherweaver]

We need to do the rereads anyway.  Well, short of you getting a guilty result and it being true and us winning.

But even so, we have to convince ourselves to believe it.

[XerxesPraelor]

I wish to soft claim godfather.

[XerxesPraelor]

By which I mean I invite ash to cop me tonight.

[XerxesPraelor]

That way, I'll be able to roleblock him sometime in the future and have this excuse come up.

[XerxesPraelor]

I can promise not to roleblock you tonight, we go through with the follow-the-cop, and then when you just 'happen' to not find scum, we lynch you then.

[Witherweaver]

XP and Ash should not target each other tonight

[Witherweaver]

By the way Pac is in Stark, right?

[Teproc]

By the way Pac is in Stark, right?

Yep.

[pacovf]

Not thrilled by XP and/or Ash targeting each other. Even less so tonight.

[ashersky]

I actually think everyone should say who I should cop and who should be blocked in their next post.

Good to get on the record.

[ashersky]

I'll start.

I think pacovf should be blocked.

[pacovf]

If mafia knows who we are blocking tonight, they can choose to no-kill, though.

I think one of {pacovf, EgorK} should be blocked and the other coped, but there is no way to organize that without scum knowing who is getting roleblocked.

[pacovf]

XP and Robz would be my secondary choices for cop and block respectively.

[faust]

Vote Count 4.2

No Lynch (3): XerxesPraelor, ashersky, pacovf

Not Voting (5): Witherweaver, Teproc, EgorK, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends October 10 at noon.

[ashersky]

If mafia knows who we are blocking tonight, they can choose to no-kill, though.

I think one of {pacovf, EgorK} should be blocked and the other coped, but there is no way to organize that without scum knowing who is getting roleblocked.

The blocker should decide independently.  I just want to see everyone put some names down.

[XerxesPraelor]

WW, I said something in the QT.

We don't need to worry about no kills because we have a "cop".

[Witherweaver]

I think Block and Cop should both be out of {EgorK, Pac}.

[pacovf]

Let's say we choose to stop lynching for a while. Every night, Ash cops someone, the Targs roleblock someone other than Ash, and the Starks doctor Ash. The Targs reveal their target in their QT 24 hours after night starts, and they keep roleblocking the same person unless a night kill occurs, in which case they say who they blocked in the common thread.

Even assuming that there are two scum left and that somehow we never block scum, that gives us three cop results before there's only 5 of us left. If we are willing to take the risk of Teproc and WW both being town (which seems reasonable to me), that's exactly EgorK, XP and me. Then there are two options:

-Ash found scum. We lynch scum, then we lynch Ash if he wasn't scum.
-Ash didn't find scum. We lynch Ash, and if he is indeed a cop, we know we are looking for a godfather and/or a traitor.

Worst case scenario is, there's both a traitor and a godfather and we don't roleblock the godfather before we get to LYLO, without us knowing that we actually are in LYLO.
But if we do roleblock scum (which seems more likely), we will have more people alive by the time Ash has investigated the relevant people, and we pretty much have one scum caught already.

Thoughts?

[Robz888]

Hi all just speed read the latest stuff to get caught up, I feel like I have a good understanding of what's going on now. I'm still vla until Monday night at the very earliest, though. If you guts could wait to actually do anything definitive until then, it's probably good.

For the record, I am absolutely sure WW and xp are town. The Teproc result makes him seem town. Ash's volt copping I really really don't like and he reads super scummy to me today... But I'm not absolutely convinced. Tentatively I would give ash a deal: we will lynch whoever you say, and if you're wrong, you're next.

However, I may like the no lynch plan better. Scum is just absolutely going to shoot WW, xp, me, or Teproc? So kills are not going to reduce our lynch pool. Ash WILL get another investigation, though, and that's good. Then we can act on that result, if we still haven't hit scum, ash goes down next lynch.

Okay, that's all for now!

[Witherweaver]

But why not just lynch EgorK today and no lynch tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

(If game not over.)

[pacovf]

But why not just lynch EgorK today and no lynch tomorrow.

No lynch today and EgorK tomorrow is better because we have Ash's result and an extra pseudo-roleblock-result to decide whether we actually want to lynch EgorK or not.

[Witherweaver]

But why not just lynch EgorK today and no lynch tomorrow.

No lynch today and EgorK tomorrow is better because we have Ash's result and an extra pseudo-roleblock-result to decide whether we actually want to lynch EgorK or not.

But we can use the cop and roleblock on other targets.

[pacovf]

I am not discussing how we should use our powers, I am saying that if we want to do a lynch and a no-lynch, I would rather do the lynch second, when we will have more information.

[Witherweaver]

I am not discussing how we should use our powers, I am saying that if we want to do a lynch and a no-lynch, I would rather do the lynch second, when we will have more information.

But lynch gives more information for the night actions.

[ashersky]

From a neutral point of view, town should milk the cop for as many results as possible before lynching him, in all cases.  This is especially true when it is likely that there is only one scum remaining.  It's harder if there are multiple scum remaining.

Lynch, no lynch, doesn't really matter.  No lynch is the "safe" play, lynch is the "fast" play.

I had this thought last night, as well: all of you haters claiming my volt investigation was a bad call are coming at the "ashersky has claimed cop" as a top-level scum conspiracy theory, assuming I'm lying because I can.  You know that scientifically that's the least likely scenario and that it's much more likely I'm just telling the truth, given how all results I've had are confirmed independently by a now confirmed town tracker.  However, you can't let go of your crazy conspiracy theories.  My decision to cop volt was based on the same style of play -- I chose to clear the scary conspiracy instead of just plodding along the safe route.  Voltaire was manifestly scummy yesterday (although not the days before), he had zero suspicion from anyone, and he hadn't even sniffed death.  All that adds up to scum!voltaire playing town like a fiddle.  I had clear him or catch him.  If he was alive today, he was scum.

The only remaining scary conspiracy is that Robz is a godfather.  Not much to be done about that.  So let's clear anyone else we can before you decide to mislynch me.

[pacovf]

Whether you are doing it willingly or not I can't say, but you are once again leaving aside any information that inconveniences you, and presenting an intrepretation of events that doesn't necessarily follow from the rest.

[pacovf]

But as you point out yourself, nolynch is the safe choice, so that's the one I prefer.

[XerxesPraelor]

The fact that you targeted who you said you did doesn't mean a cop.

[Witherweaver]

From a neutral point of view, town should milk the cop for as many results as possible before lynching him, in all cases.  This is especially true when it is likely that there is only one scum remaining.  It's harder if there are multiple scum remaining.

Lynch, no lynch, doesn't really matter.  No lynch is the "safe" play, lynch is the "fast" play.

I had this thought last night, as well: all of you haters claiming my volt investigation was a bad call are coming at the "ashersky has claimed cop" as a top-level scum conspiracy theory, assuming I'm lying because I can.  You know that scientifically that's the least likely scenario and that it's much more likely I'm just telling the truth, given how all results I've had are confirmed independently by a now confirmed town tracker.  However, you can't let go of your crazy conspiracy theories.  My decision to cop volt was based on the same style of play -- I chose to clear the scary conspiracy instead of just plodding along the safe route.  Voltaire was manifestly scummy yesterday (although not the days before), he had zero suspicion from anyone, and he hadn't even sniffed death.  All that adds up to scum!voltaire playing town like a fiddle.  I had clear him or catch him.  If he was alive today, he was scum.

The only remaining scary conspiracy is that Robz is a godfather.  Not much to be done about that.  So let's clear anyone else we can before you decide to mislynch me.

What you say about Volt makes sense on everything except the fact that he knew your targets *before you claimed them*.  What is the scum!Voltaire explanation for that?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I stand with those who want a no lynch today.
vote: no lynch
Also, had a lot going on lately, so been low activity in general.

[pacovf]

No-lynch at L-1.


Hum, if anyone else wants a no-lynch please state intent to hammer beforehand, ok?

[ashersky]

From a neutral point of view, town should milk the cop for as many results as possible before lynching him, in all cases.  This is especially true when it is likely that there is only one scum remaining.  It's harder if there are multiple scum remaining.

Lynch, no lynch, doesn't really matter.  No lynch is the "safe" play, lynch is the "fast" play.

I had this thought last night, as well: all of you haters claiming my volt investigation was a bad call are coming at the "ashersky has claimed cop" as a top-level scum conspiracy theory, assuming I'm lying because I can.  You know that scientifically that's the least likely scenario and that it's much more likely I'm just telling the truth, given how all results I've had are confirmed independently by a now confirmed town tracker.  However, you can't let go of your crazy conspiracy theories.  My decision to cop volt was based on the same style of play -- I chose to clear the scary conspiracy instead of just plodding along the safe route.  Voltaire was manifestly scummy yesterday (although not the days before), he had zero suspicion from anyone, and he hadn't even sniffed death.  All that adds up to scum!voltaire playing town like a fiddle.  I had clear him or catch him.  If he was alive today, he was scum.

The only remaining scary conspiracy is that Robz is a godfather.  Not much to be done about that.  So let's clear anyone else we can before you decide to mislynch me.

What you say about Volt makes sense on everything except the fact that he knew your targets *before you claimed them*.  What is the scum!Voltaire explanation for that?

Scum Tracker works.  We've had Scum Doctor in previous games.  I'm not saying it was the most likely target to return mafia.  It was second least likely, in fact.  But I had to clear him, for all our sakes.  If he were alive today, this would be a different conversation.

Dude tracked me twice, which was a huge waste of his power EXCEPT to confirm me, and yet no complaints there.  So be glad he confirmed me instead of disbelieving me.  He could have attempted to track the killer instead.

[pacovf]

Ok, let's go over this.

There was a ninja in the setup, and you are a much more likely to be targeted by a Tracker than silver was, so if you were scum, you obviously wouldn't have used your factional kill during N1.  So him tracking you N1 was of very limited use to check your alignment. Were there better targets for tracking N2? Maybe yes, maybe not. But him tracking you again wasn't useless, far from it.


Now, by the end of D3, we knew Voltaire was a tracker, because he had correctly predicted your two targets (or else both you and him were scum). So then you decide that it was better to cop Voltaire, the strongly pro-town player who had a confirmed town PR, rather than basically anybody else? That is useless.


One last point, Voltaire could be town and alive today for the same reasons you are: because there was another good target, and because there's a doctor in the setup. Why do you think we should have been wary of him had he lived, but accuse us heavily when we suspect you?

[ashersky]

Show me where Voltaire was confirmed town please.

[ashersky]

Tell me why his "prediction" is so amazingly town and yet my side of the same "prediction" isn't?  Remember, I didn't know who he would say I targeted.

And drop the "you are some other scum pr" crap.  The only pr that returns alignments is cop.

And to wit, I was fine with volt's choice to track me N1.  Made perfect sense.  The N2 track could have been anyone else.

[EgorK]

And drop the "you are some other scum pr" crap.  The only pr that returns alignments is cop.

But you do not need to get alignment by your pr to know it

I think ash is possible, but not likely. I want either to lynch pac or no lynch to shrink pool. vote: no lynch. I believe this is L-1

[faust]

Day 4 Final Vote Count

No Lynch (5): XerxesPraelor, ashersky, pacovf, Ichimaru Gin, EgorK

Not Voting (3): Witherweaver, Teproc, Robz888

With 8 alive, it took 5 to no lynch.

[faust]

No flavor since nothing happened.  I only write death scenes.

Night 4 has begun and lasts 72 hours (shorter upon request). Night actions are due in the first 24 hours.

THREAD LOCKED!

[faust]

Day 5 will start in about 6 hours. If you wish for more time, please let me know.

[faust]

Another time, the sun rises above Westeros, and everybody lives. What is wrong with George R R Martin?

Vote Count 5.0

Not Voting (8): XerxesPraelor, ashersky, pacovf, Ichimaru Gin, EgorK, Witherweaver, Teproc, Robz888

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 5 ends October 14 at 5 pm forum time.

THREAD UNLOCKED!

[Witherweaver]

Vote: EgorK

[pacovf]

That is... interesting...

[Teproc]

Ok, something very interesting happened tonight.

[Witherweaver]

Who used protection?  Ichi again?

[pacovf]

We have to talk in the QT first.

[Teproc]

Here's the thing : yesterday, because of Voltaire's death, Stark became the majority house, and faust prompted us to elect a Hand of the King. We figured we'd do it later, but then the day ended suddenly and we hadn't done it.

SO when the night came, we were told we couldn't take a night action.

Which means whoever was roleblocked is scum. Or that scum is in Stark and no killed to make us think that. Either way we should probably lynch the Targ target.

[Teproc]

Meh, we don't have to talk in the QT pac. This is pretty simple.

[pacovf]

I guess.

[Teproc]

So WW, would I be correct in assuming you're voting for Egork because XP roleblocked him ?

[Witherweaver]

Well.. that's something.

PPE: Verily.

[Teproc]

vote : Egork

If Egork flips town it means it's either pac or Ichi, so probably pac since we have a town result on Ichi.

People are welcome to invent new crazy scenarios where ash no killed, but I'm not interested.

[Witherweaver]

Well.. there's always the Ash is VLA and forgot to/wasn't able to check in theory...

[pacovf]

I would like to wait for Ashersky's result before we lynch anyone, though.

[ashersky]

I would like to wait for Ashersky's result before we lynch anyone, though.

I'm here.  I didn't receive a result, at all.  I don't know if Faust forgot though, because I didn't get any PM whatsoever.

I would have expected a "no result" or something, at least.  I got nothing.

I'm good with vote: EgorK.

[Witherweaver]

Umm... that doesn't really make sense.

[Teproc]

What ? That's just plain weird.

[Witherweaver]

Want to send Faust a PM to see if there was a mistake? 

Who did you target?

[pacovf]

L-2

I'll wait until we get something more definitive from Ashersky/Faust.

But I've been thinking about who would benefit from a no-kill... and there's simply no one. Zero. So it has to be EgorK. But still, I wait.

[pacovf]

Wait, no, I just saw how someone could benefit from it. Ok, I'll shut up for now.

[ashersky]

What ? That's just plain weird.

Yeah, I submitted my order as soon as I could.  I got a confirmation of my order being received from faust.  Then I saw the day had started and that EgorK had been roleblocked.

I think that a roleblocked player would get a "no result" PM but I guess I can't be sure.  It's just odd I'd get no PM whatsoever.

I'll ask faust, but we'll need to wait for morning there before we get an answer.

I investigated EgorK.

[Robz888]

Yeah we need to wait until we get resolution to the ashersky PM dilemma.

[Teproc]

It's not that late here, he might respond still.

You should definitely get a result, Egork being roleblocked doesn't prevent him from being investigated.

WW, can you check the wording of the Targ power ?

[pacovf]

He could be rolestopped too... but only if whoever used the power wanted to.

Still, "no result" is to be expected.

[ashersky]

It's not that late here, he might respond still.

You should definitely get a result, Egork being roleblocked doesn't prevent him from being investigated.

WW, can you check the wording of the Targ power ?

I just meant if I was roleblocked, I should still get a "no result" result.

I know my order got in on time as I got a confirmed response from faust.

[Witherweaver]

Even if he was Rolestopped, Ash should have gotten "No Result"

[Teproc]

I suppose the last scum could be a roleblocker, but that seems unlikely since we haven't got a "no result" yet.

Yes obviously ash getting no PM doesn't make sense.

[Witherweaver]

I suppose the last scum could be a roleblocker, but that seems unlikely since we haven't got a "no result" yet.

Yes obviously ash getting no PM doesn't make sense.

Well, and PPS flipped Jailkeeper, so very not likely.

[pacovf]

I don't think the previous three nights happen the way they have if scum still has a roleblocker.

Not to mention that that theory requires that there are two scum left.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah we need to wait until we get resolution to the ashersky PM dilemma.

[pacovf]

XP, you used Targaryen's power, right? Did you just roleblock EgorK, or did you also rolestop him? If I am not wrong, your House is still empowered, right?

[pacovf]

Actually, no, don't answer yet.

[XerxesPraelor]

I could indeed have rolestopped him - not saying until ash gets clarification though.

[Teproc]

Oh, the Targ power rolestops when empowered. I completely forgot about that.

So ash probably should get a no result (assuming Targs are still empowered, I'm too lazy to figure that out).

Which doesn't really change anything, no kill implicates Egork more than enough.

[ashersky]

Oh, the Targ power rolestops when empowered. I completely forgot about that.

So ash probably should get a no result (assuming Targs are still empowered, I'm too lazy to figure that out).

Which doesn't really change anything, no kill implicates Egork more than enough.

I mean, unless faust isn't sending "no result" PMs generally.  But I don't see why not.  He must be sleeping, though.

And I agree, EgorK looks bad.

[XerxesPraelor]

Oh, the Targ power rolestops when empowered. I completely forgot about that.

So ash probably should get a no result (assuming Targs are still empowered, I'm too lazy to figure that out).

Which doesn't really change anything, no kill implicates Egork more than enough.

The targ power does not require me to rolestop.

[Ichimaru Gin]

no kill implicates Egork more than enough.

Sorry, why is that again?

[ashersky]

no kill implicates Egork more than enough.

Sorry, why is that again?

Because he was roleblocked/stopped.

[ashersky]

Amazingly, he was last active 2 minutes before faust opened the thread.  So it's technically possible he hasn't been here, so I can't call him out for not posting anything since the day started.

[Ichimaru Gin]

no kill implicates Egork more than enough.

Sorry, why is that again?

Because he was roleblocked/stopped.

Oh. Right, cause the roleblock stops the nightkill. 

That is pretty damning.

[EgorK]

Vote: EgorK

I don't think there is any reason to delay inevitable

[ashersky]

Vote: EgorK

I don't think there is any reason to delay inevitable

That works.

[ashersky]

That's L-1.

Faust still hasn't responded to me, but EgorK has confessed.

[Teproc]

Sweet. Feel free to hammer people : we have a Hand of the King so we've done everything we need to in case there's a fourth scum somewhere.

[ashersky]

Faust responded.  I get no PM.

Means XP rolestopped instead of blocked.  But why?

[pacovf]

There is a very simple reason, but I won't give it so Robz won't shout at me.

There is a conspiracy theory were you are both scum and want to avoid giving an extra cop result.

Then there's EgorK confessing.

I'll wait in case XP wants to say anything, then I'll hammer.

[ashersky]

You are the 4th scum, pacovf.  If not you, XP.

Otherwise, I just don't see a 4th.



You rolestopped to see if I would lie about my result?  If I'm partners with EgorK, why would I claim to investigate him?  I could say hydrad, or you, or anyone else.

That's the fairest, most terrible "trap" I've ever heard of, and it is clearly a scum ploy to discredit me.

Ridiculous.  I should have outed ages ago.

[Teproc]

Ridiculous.  I should have outed ages ago.

What ?

[ashersky]

Ridiculous.  I should have outed ages ago.

What ?

I should have stopped playing days before this.

[ashersky]

Also, Pacovf won't hammer confessed scum.  That's a scum move for sure.

[Teproc]

I understand what you meant, I just don't understand why.

[ashersky]

Next, he'll be typing the vote but "forgetting" to bold it, Galz style.

[Teproc]

I love that you're still accusing him after not investigating him four nights in a row and when by far the most likely ting is that Egork is the last scum alive.

[ashersky]

I understand what you meant, I just don't understand why.

Things are getting me too angry too easily.  I need to stop playing.  Maybe if I was scum, I wouldn't mind it so much.  It's just not fun as town anymore, and especially as a PR.

[ashersky]

I love that you're still accusing him after not investigating him four nights in a row and when by far the most likely ting is that Egork is the last scum alive.

I'm not arguing that EgorK isn't scum, he is definitely scum.

Tell me why a supposed town player won't hammer him.  Tell me, please.

[Teproc]

He said he wanted XP to come in and clarify the rolelock/rolestop thing. That seems sensible to me.

[pacovf]

Because XP hasn't said yet if he rolestopped EgorK or not.

[pacovf]

I am sorry if this is making you feel angry, Ash. Really.

[ashersky]

Because XP hasn't said yet if he rolestopped EgorK or not.

How does that affect EgorK's alignment, given he's confessed to being scum?

It's all academic if EgorK is in fact the last scum, as Teproc claims is most likely.

And yet...pacovf won't hammer him.  This points clearly to pacovf being EgorK's partner.

[Teproc]

It doesn't but hammering sends us into the night, so might as well get it cleared up now, in case XP dies somehow or whatever.

[Teproc]

There's no upside for scum!pacovf not to hammer, too.

[ashersky]

You not hammering isn't making me angry.

The unwarranted suspicion going so far as to possibly ruining our chances of winning just in case of some insane conspiracy where I'm partners with EgorK?  That makes me angry.

In the end, all I want is to win.  A town member purposefully trying to mess with the cop's results is playing against him (and my) wincon!  That makes me angry.

[Teproc]

We don't know that XP did that. You not getting a PM doesn't point to Egork getting rolestopped.

[Teproc]

You're being paranoid because people suspect you, which... this is a mafia game, you know.

[Teproc]

ash, do you have reason to think that your PR might not work if no one is Hand of the King ? That could maybe be it, idk.

[pacovf]

Ok. You got me. I confess, I was scum since the beginning, and you caught me because I joked in the Stark QT during N0.


EgorK hasn't 100% confessed, just 99%. There's that 1% chance were he is town who realizes that there is no way he is escaping the lynch today, and he doesn't feel like fighting that.

One of the 1% conspiracy theories is that both you (Ash) and XP are scum. You set a trap on EgorK by roleblocking him. Ash gets a free pass of not using his cop by claiming to be rolestopped. If you target someone else, you have to give an innocent result. If you target EgorK without being rolestopped, then whether you say he is scum or town, you are pretty much doomed. But this is a 1% conspiracy theory.

So, I wait for XP to give his result, just in case. I think it is sensible.

PPE 6

[ashersky]

You've basically let XP commandeer and throw this game in the garbage.  I PMed Faust during the epic D1 to tell him this game was the most fun I'd had at mafia in quite awhile.  I spoke too soon.  I jinxed it.

If we aren't lynching EgorK, who has confessed to being mafia, then definitely lynch me.

I refuse to be treated like this, and to let XP play puppet master when he has been so incredibly wrong.

I could have been wrong about Pacovf.  I didn't commandeer the game, or purposefully play against my wincon, to force feed everyone a read that couldn't be confirmed.  But that's what XP is doing, and you are letting him.  That's tacit consent and support, and overtly declaring yourselves against me.

So lynch me.

[pacovf]

Wait what? When did we say we weren't lynching EgorK?

[Teproc]

Egork is definitely scum. The possibility we can play around is taht of a 4th scum.

Dear GOd, stop that ash. WE ARE LYNCHING EGORK, WE'RE JUST WAITING FIVE MINTUES.

[ashersky]

ash, do you have reason to think that your PR might not work if no one is Hand of the King ? That could maybe be it, idk.

No reason at all.  I can't target anyone in my house.  I have no house, so I have no restrictions.

[Teproc]

Ash, why do you think XP is being so antitown ? You don't know that he rolestopped : not getting a result doesn't point to rolestopping, it points to a weird setup thing.

[Teproc]

Actually ash, can you check if you got your order it in time ? Maybe that's it ?

[ashersky]

One of the 1% conspiracy theories is that both you (Ash) and XP are scum. You set a trap on EgorK by roleblocking him. Ash gets a free pass of not using his cop by claiming to be rolestopped. If you target someone else, you have to give an innocent result. If you target EgorK without being rolestopped, then whether you say he is scum or town, you are pretty much doomed. But this is a 1% conspiracy theory.

So, I wait for XP to give his result, just in case. I think it is sensible.

I don't understand this.  Now XP and I are partners and he fake trapped me after we fake fought for days?

Um, no.  We real fought for days and it's hard for me to believe we are on the same team at all (if he turns out to be town) given he's played against my wincon.

[ashersky]

Actually ash, can you check if you got your order it in time ? Maybe that's it ?

I got a confirmed reply from Faust.  If it was late, it wouldn't be confirmed.

[Teproc]

Um, no.  We real fought for days and it's hard for me to believe we are on the same team at all (if he turns out to be town) given he's played against my wincon.

If you're referring to rolestopping Egork here, you don't know that he did it. If not, what are you talking about ?

[ashersky]

I submitted 13 hours into night.

[pacovf]

One of the 1% conspiracy theories is that both you (Ash) and XP are scum. You set a trap on EgorK by roleblocking him. Ash gets a free pass of not using his cop by claiming to be rolestopped. If you target someone else, you have to give an innocent result. If you target EgorK without being rolestopped, then whether you say he is scum or town, you are pretty much doomed. But this is a 1% conspiracy theory.

So, I wait for XP to give his result, just in case. I think it is sensible.

I don't understand this.  Now XP and I are partners and he fake trapped me after we fake fought for days?

Um, no.  We real fought for days and it's hard for me to believe we are on the same team at all (if he turns out to be town) given he's played against my wincon.

Doesn't scum ever fake a fight? Anyway, it is pointless to discuss this now. We wait until XP says whether he rolestopped EgorK or not and why, we think about it a bit if his answer is surprising, we lynch EgorK, and we very probably win.

[ashersky]

Um, no.  We real fought for days and it's hard for me to believe we are on the same team at all (if he turns out to be town) given he's played against my wincon.

If you're referring to rolestopping Egork here, you don't know that he did it. If not, what are you talking about ?

Pacovf intimated that XP rolestopped EgorK to test me.  To see if I would make up a result (sort of how Volt kept tracking me to check my results).

I assume Pacovf knew what he was talking about?  That's an anti-town move if true because it stops me from getting a result.

[pacovf]

For what it is worth, I don't think you are taking the right conclusions from what happened, Ash. But I don't want to feed answers to XP, so I won't say more.

[ashersky]

One of the 1% conspiracy theories is that both you (Ash) and XP are scum. You set a trap on EgorK by roleblocking him. Ash gets a free pass of not using his cop by claiming to be rolestopped. If you target someone else, you have to give an innocent result. If you target EgorK without being rolestopped, then whether you say he is scum or town, you are pretty much doomed. But this is a 1% conspiracy theory.

So, I wait for XP to give his result, just in case. I think it is sensible.

I don't understand this.  Now XP and I are partners and he fake trapped me after we fake fought for days?

Um, no.  We real fought for days and it's hard for me to believe we are on the same team at all (if he turns out to be town) given he's played against my wincon.

Doesn't scum ever fake a fight? Anyway, it is pointless to discuss this now. We wait until XP says whether he rolestopped EgorK or not and why, we think about it a bit if his answer is surprising, we lynch EgorK, and we very probably win.

If XP is scum trying to protect his partner, he rolestops him so he can't be caught.  That's a good reason.

But then why does EgorK give up like that?

[ashersky]

For what it is worth, I don't think you are taking the right conclusions from what happened, Ash. But I don't want to feed answers to XP, so I won't say more.

But you already know what happened.  Why not explain it?

At least, the way you are talking, you seem to know already.

[Teproc]

Um, no.  We real fought for days and it's hard for me to believe we are on the same team at all (if he turns out to be town) given he's played against my wincon.

If you're referring to rolestopping Egork here, you don't know that he did it. If not, what are you talking about ?

Pacovf intimated that XP rolestopped EgorK to test me.  To see if I would make up a result (sort of how Volt kept tracking me to check my results).

I assume Pacovf knew what he was talking about?  That's an anti-town move if true because it stops me from getting a result.

Pac is in Stark, so he doesn't know what XP did, he's just giving a possible explanation.

I wouldn't like that play but it's not that different from you copping Voltaire.

Egork probably doesn't have partners left, or at least not that knows of (traitor is basically what I'm saying, since SK is incerdibly unlikely).

[pacovf]

EgorK hasn't been overly active here. I don't see why he would suddenly become so once he realizes there is no way he is escaping the lynch today.

Still, by far the most likely explanation is that EgorK is scum. But because it isn't 100% guaranteed, I am thinking about the alternatives.

For what it is worth, I don't think you are taking the right conclusions from what happened, Ash. But I don't want to feed answers to XP, so I won't say more.

But you already know what happened.  Why not explain it?

At least, the way you are talking, you seem to know already.

I think I know, but I can't be sure.

[ashersky]

If XP thought I was scum, he would Roleblocking me.  If he thought EgorK was scum, he would Roleblocking him.  There was no reason to Rolestop anyone.

This wasn't a targeting problem, it is a role usage problem.  You can argue me targeting voltaire was a bad targeting choice.  No one is saying I shouldn't have copped someone. 

[pacovf]

Egork probably doesn't have partners left, or at least not that knows of (traitor is basically what I'm saying, since SK is incerdibly unlikely).

We know there is no SK since D1. The setup specifies that there is only Realm-Aligned and Mafia players.

If XP thought I was scum, he would Roleblocking me.  If he thought EgorK was scum, he would Roleblocking him.  There was no reason to Rolestop anyone.

This wasn't a targeting problem, it is a role usage problem.  You can argue me targeting voltaire was a bad targeting choice.  No one is saying I shouldn't have copped someone. 

Let's not feed answers to XP anymore, please.

[ashersky]

I'm pointing out his insane scumminess.

If EgorK had tried at all, he could have made a great argument that XP role stopping him was super scummy and the no kill was XP framing him.

Who else is in the Roleblocking house with XP?

[pacovf]

I'm pointing out his insane scumminess.

If EgorK had tried at all, he could have made a great argument that XP role stopping him was super scummy and the no kill was XP framing him.

Who else is in the Roleblocking house with XP?

WW and Robz.

Note that only the Starks knew that there was no doctor tonight.

[pacovf]

Also EgorK didn't know he was rolestopped when he self-voted.

[faust]

Vote Count 5.1

EgorK (4): Witherweaver, Teproc, ashersky, EgorK

Not Voting (4): XerxesPraelor, pacovf, Ichimaru Gin, Robz888

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 5 ends October 14 at 5 pm forum time.

[ashersky]

Also EgorK didn't know he was rolestopped when he self-voted.

If he was reading along, he knew it was possible and that I had no result on him.

[Teproc]

Egork is scum who knows he'll be caught by PoE since day 2, that's why he's giving up.

[pacovf]

Also EgorK didn't know he was rolestopped when he self-voted.

If he was reading along, he knew it was possible and that I had no result on him.

You're actually right.

Anyway, I don't see any reason not to wait for XP to explain himself, just in case.

[Witherweaver]

Just hammer guys.  If the day isn't over we can talk more in the QT.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, if the game isn't over.

[Witherweaver]

I see zero motivation for scum Ash to not just say EgorK is guilty. 

Maybe what happened had something to do with EgorKs role, maybe Faust's version of Cop doesn't return No Results.  Most likely case is we Lynch Egor and win and figure it out after.

[XerxesPraelor]

I rolestopped so I could clear two people (ash/EgorK) but it looks like it was unnecessary. Sorry, ash.

vote: EgorK

[pacovf]

Just hammer guys.  If the day isn't over we can talk more in the QT.

That's actually a very good point. Make sure XP says what he did and why, if we reach N6, though.

Vote: EgorK

I see zero motivation for scum Ash to not just say EgorK is guilty.

I do, but it's probably irrelevant anyway.

[pacovf]

If people stoped ninjaing me, that would be great.

[faust]

Day 5 Final Vote Count

EgorK (5): Witherweaver, Teproc, ashersky, EgorK, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (3): pacovf, Ichimaru Gin, Robz888

With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

[pacovf]

Ash can't be scum if XP isn't by the way. There's a limit to how much he can predict town behaviour, and I think we've reached it now.

[faust]

Brienne

She heard the rumors. Everywhere in the streets of King's Landing they said it: Someone in the service of the king secretly worked for the Iron Islands. A Traitor who wished for King Robb and the Dragon Queen Daenerys to start a great war, crushing each other's armies, so that the Greyjoys could emerge after the battle ended and claim the wasted lands of Westeros.

In service of the king, Roose Bolton had all his men out hunting for this treacherous man. It was said that he used cruel methods, the methods his house once was famous for: flaying people alive to get the truth out of them. But even with these efforts, they couldn't seem to find anyone.

Brienne did not care much about these developments. She was sworn to the king's mother, that much was true, but she found that all this intrigue and deception, the high lords playing their game of thrones did not suit her. It was something else she cared for: revenge.

As personal guard of Catelyn Stark, many doors stood open for her, and she had spent days and nights investigating. Everything she had found out led her to one conclusion, led her to this door, to this bedroom. She opened it quietly, stepping over the dead guards who never had seen her coming.

Inside the room, a big fire burnt, and there she lay: Melisandre, the Red Priestess.

"So you have come", she said, turning her eyes on Brienne. "The ugly woman visiting me in my bedchamber. I have seen it in the flames."

Brienne felt a sudden urge to slit her throat open immediately. "Then you know why I am here?"

"You seek revenge for your dead king. But don't you know? I merely advanced the events tat were bound to happen. Renly Baratheon's armies could not win the war. Thousands would have died in his name. By bringing him death only a little earlier, I spared the lives of many."

Tears stood in Brienne's eyes. "I loved him." And then, she could not wait any longer. "FOR RENLY!", she yelled, and Oathkeeper rushed through the air. The Valyrian Steel went through flesh and bones as though they were butter, and Melisandre's beautiful head fell to the ground. The night was dark and full of terrors, Brienne thought.

EgorK has been lynched! He was Melisandre, the Mafia Goon, sworn to House Stark.

The Realm has been saved!

[Teproc]

Sweet, I get the final chapter !

[Teproc]

I'm curious who Egork tried to kill, I thought this was going to be afascinating day of trying to parse out what a scum in House Stark would do, but it turned out to be much simpler than that.

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, now we just have to lynch ash.

[pacovf]

Okay, now we just have to lynch ash.

HAHAHA

[Teproc]

Okay, now we just have to lynch ash.

pacovf too.

[pacovf]

"Town wins"

[faust]

QTs:

Mod: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/WWsLy9wTuXB
Speccy: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/7SRtaCfcxJ8
Mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/wvkYzHs9qbF

House QTs:
Lannister: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jzaWdh8XMf2d

Baratheon:
N0/D1: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/qviAe6x7qyLQX
N1/D2: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/h53Q3EcyZTsw

Stark:
N0/D1: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/F97xZpyVqrEmV
N1/D2: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/VZRqqYNFX9MG
N2: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/43VUsyRe4vaj
D3: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/hmaQ6n2dxya
N3 to D5: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/yKKtsgsq7eB

Targaryen:
N0 to D2: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/VyPPZ32CqD5Zp
N2 to D5: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/FBhWS5gbjHw

[silverspawn]

hmm I really expected a traitor here. seems like an awful lot of PR's for town.

but with our day1, we probably would have lost either way. nothing went right this game.

you didn't even lynch teproc. but you investigated him, so I guess that's at least some kind of reward for my stunt.

[pacovf]

I'm curious who Egork tried to kill, I thought this was going to be afascinating day of trying to parse out what a scum in House Stark would do, but it turned out to be much simpler than that.

There wasn't much EgorK could do. He could only hope that both Ash and XP targeted me.

[pingpongsam]

I understand what you meant, I just don't understand why.

Things are getting me too angry too easily.  I need to stop playing.  Maybe if I was scum, I wouldn't mind it so much.  It's just not fun as town anymore, and especially as a PR.

Funny, I used to thrive on playing as scum now I despise it. I can't say I get angry though.

[pacovf]

Thank you very much for modding this, Faust and Archetype! It was great fun

[silverspawn]

playing as scum is weird. it's a completely different game.

[2.71828.....]

Also, I know it has been said many times, but amazing flavor

[faust]

Night actions and movements:

D1: azadin, PPS, silverspawn, Voltaire move to House Baratheon, Ichi moves to House Stark

N1
Voltaire tracks ashersky
ashersky cops Robz
silverspawn kills azadin
Teproc doctors ashersky
Xerxes blocks Hydrad
Voltaire primes Robz

D2: Voltaire moves to House Targaryen, EgorK, Hydrad, silverspawn move to House Stark

N2
EgorK kills ashersky
Voltaire tracks ashersky
EgorK kills Voltaire
Xerxes blocks Teproc
Ichi doctors ashersky
pacovf moves to House Baratheon (fails)

D3: pacovf moves to House Stark

N3
ashersky cops Voltaire
Voltaire tracks EgorK
EgorK kills Voltaire
Xerxes blocks Teproc
Ichi doctors ashersky

N4
EgorK kills Ichi
Xerxes blocks/stops EgorK
ashersky cops EgorK

[pacovf]

Also, I know it has been said many times, but amazing flavor

This * 10000

[Teproc]

You primed Robz Volt ? I disagree, strongly.

[Teproc]

To be clear : i disagre with priming, not with specifically priming Robz. After lynching scum one of the ways scum could have a chance was by getting the Baratheon power.

[faust]

Notes on the game:

- Voltaire gets MVP. Amazing reads, helped lynch pingpongsam, played a major part in figuring out the setup, and did a great job with his tracking. Game could have ended sooner had he survived.

- that error with WW really shouldn't have happened, very sorry about that, especially to the scum team, who ended up suffering from that.

- Mafia had a really hard time here. Maybe they could have used a bit more power. Then again, they didn't make use of the setup, while town used it in the best way possible (I think). Also losing the strongest PR is a huge blow for any scum team. I might look into doing more universal powers that are for the whole team to use, I can see why they're en vogue lately. If I was to run this again, I would (A) give scum the ability to choose their target after the night voting is done, (B) add a Godfather or make the cop X-shot.

- I was looking forward to the scum team - one experienced player and two relatively new ones. Wasn't that interesting anymore once pps got lynched.

- I think things would have been more tense if only one House move was allowed.

- I was surprised how little suspicion Xerxes received. The role was randomly distributed, and that rolestopping empowerment was designed specifically to make him look more scummy

- having so many QTs is tedious stuff for modding

[pacovf]

I think Cop + Tracker was a bit much. IMHO the House Roles were mostly pro-town, at least the way we used them.

Obviously hitting the jailkeeper D1 was really lucky for town.

[Teproc]

And yeah, thanks faust for organizing, obviously the flavour was great, sorry for the WW thing, I do think my argments were sound (since they weren't based on him getting the same flavour as me, but on his reaction to that).

PPE : 2

[pacovf]

- I think things would have been more tense if only one House move was allowed.

I think a better condition would have been to allow only one move per house per phase. Only the first PM asking to move counts. Something like that, more dynamic.

What was Lannister's empowered power, by the way?

[Teproc]

Pretty happy we won before I felt the need to reread, that would have been painful.

[faust]

- I think things would have been more tense if only one House move was allowed.

I think a better condition would have been to allow only one move per house per phase. Only the first PM asking to move counts. Something like that, more dynamic.

What was Lannister's empowered power, by the way?

Self-Voyeur.

[pacovf]

Pretty happy we won before I felt the need to reread, that would have been painful.

I did a targeted reread of EgorK and Hydrad during D3 and it was painful already...

[Teproc]

Huh, Robz really thought I was scum apparently ?

[Witherweaver]

Thing was, I really don't see Silverspawn choosing to lynch his partner XP over his partner PPS.  That and I've played quite a few times with town XP pretty much convinced me he was town, or at the very least not Mafia.

[Witherweaver]

Huh, Robz really thought I was scum apparently ?

Yeah.. well, we did Roleblock you the same night Ash was successfully doctored.  That made you look bad.   We only went for the Roleblock to cover an unlikely event, because we figured the Cop/Tracker would cover the likely targets.  You had acted funny when Silverspawn confessed, so there was some reasonable suspicion.

[Witherweaver]

So XP/Danaerys could have been scum?  That role seems a little swingy.

In case it wasn't clear (we didn't actually announce it here I think), only XP could use our House power.  We had to vote for whether or not he was able to use it, but only he had the ability.  If he died, we would have lost the Roleblock/Rolestop.  I'm not sure if the House would be dissolved or not.

[Witherweaver]

We decided to keep that part secret (because scum could kill him to get rid of the PR).

[Teproc]

To be fair, we'll see how you act when someone says you're their scumpartner after they've been lynched. It's a strange feeling.

PPE : I actually thought you claimed that. Well I thought you had to vote for him, I didn't think you'd get to choose if he could use the power.

[Witherweaver]

Sweet, I get the final chapter !

First time to the end of a game?

[Witherweaver]

To be fair, we'll see how you act when someone says you're their scumpartner after they've been lynched. It's a strange feeling.

PPE : I actually thought you claimed that. Well I thought you had to vote for him, I didn't think you'd get to choose if he could use the power.

Hm, maybe we said he automatically becomes Hand if we're the leading house, but I don't think that implies the role thing.

[Teproc]

And the Lannister empowerement wasn't great. Better than Baratheon, but definitely much worse than Stark.

PPE : Nah, it must be the fourth time I think ? I lost at lylo as town in GoT (first game), survived all the way to the end of Chocolate Factory (second game), and then kept dying until Legend of Zelda Mafia where I got it wrong at lylo as town, again.

[Witherweaver]

And the Lannister empowerement wasn't great. Better than Baratheon, but definitely much worse than Stark.

PPE : Nah, it must be the fourth time I think ? I lost at lylo as town in GoT (first game), survived all the way to the end of Chocolate Factory (second game), and then kept dying until Legend of Zelda Mafia where I got it wrong at lylo as town, again.

Oh yeah, Legend of Zelda... that's why we don't let you live until LyLo!

[silverspawn]

I think you did really well in Zelda. Hydrad was super scummy.

[Hydrad]

I think you did really well in Zelda. Hydrad was super scummy.

Not my fault

[pacovf]

...I still don't understand the Azadin kill...

[Witherweaver]

On Day 1 I didn't know XP was town (I was leaning more town than not, but was still a little null).. but I knew I didn't want him lynched because I didn't want to lose the potential Roleblock power (plus whatever empowerment was.. we didn't know what it would be during Day 1).  So I insisted he didn't get lynched without given reasons, and without being that confident in his towniness.

I think it was just pure unluckiness for scum that it ended up XP or PPS. 

[Witherweaver]

It was said town had a lot of PRs many times, but really there were only two town PRs and two scum PRs:

Town Cop
Town Tracker
Scum Jailkeeper
Scum One-Shot Ninja

The House powers could have ended up controlled by Scum or Town, but they all ended up Town controlled.  But I guess Town controlling the House power is more likely since Town outnumber Scum.

[pacovf]

Even if scum had gotten the powers, they had to face accountability issues if they did weird things with them. Plus, town could empty houses.

[Witherweaver]

Even if scum had gotten the powers, they had to face accountability issues if they did weird things with them. Plus, town could empty houses.

Right, but as you saw emptying houses was an issue.  We had to protect against the chance that scum stayed or moved back into a house.. if we have a public plan, scum can exploit it.. if we let people make their own choice, we question their alignment.  You got suspected for testing if Baratheon was really gone.

[faust]

It was said town had a lot of PRs many times, but really there were only two town PRs and two scum PRs:

Town Cop
Town Tracker
Scum Jailkeeper
Scum One-Shot Ninja

The House powers could have ended up controlled by Scum or Town, but they all ended up Town controlled.  But I guess Town controlling the House power is more likely since Town outnumber Scum.

Well, Xerxes had a power role as well.

[Witherweaver]

It was said town had a lot of PRs many times, but really there were only two town PRs and two scum PRs:

Town Cop
Town Tracker
Scum Jailkeeper
Scum One-Shot Ninja

The House powers could have ended up controlled by Scum or Town, but they all ended up Town controlled.  But I guess Town controlling the House power is more likely since Town outnumber Scum.

Well, Xerxes had a power role as well.

But he could have rolled scum, right?  Or that was a guaranteed town role?

[faust]

It was said town had a lot of PRs many times, but really there were only two town PRs and two scum PRs:

Town Cop
Town Tracker
Scum Jailkeeper
Scum One-Shot Ninja

The House powers could have ended up controlled by Scum or Town, but they all ended up Town controlled.  But I guess Town controlling the House power is more likely since Town outnumber Scum.

Well, Xerxes had a power role as well.

But he could have rolled scum, right?  Or that was a guaranteed town role?

If scum got that role, they would not have had a Jailkeeper.

[Witherweaver]

Oh okay.. another Goon then? 

Though it still wasn't a pure PR because he needed a vote to let him use it.  Things probably would have gone differently if Robz and I started suspecting XP a lot.

[Robz888]

GG.

Scum felt under-powered, but I think that was just the result of town getting an extra, unintentional PR: WW as IC. ICs are strong.

Also, hitting scum Day 1 typically results in a scum loss no matter what.

[Witherweaver]

GG.

Scum felt under-powered, but I think that was just the result of town getting an extra, unintentional PR: WW as IC. ICs are strong.

Also, hitting scum Day 1 typically results in a scum loss no matter what.

*Flex*

[Voltaire]

Woo, we win. And I think this is my first town MVP!

Thanks for modding, faust. This was great.

[azadin]

faust, awesome job. I loved the flavor of this game. Very creative flips!

I also don't really understand my death N1...can scum explain that?

[Teproc]

faust, awesome job. I loved the flavor of this game. Very creative flips!

I also don't really understand my death N1...can scum explain that?

They thought you hammering PPS made you ICish and you weren't as likely to be doctored as WW or Voltaire. Interestingly they didn't consider killing ash who had breadcrumbed like mad (which is why I doctored him).

[Hydrad]

I really need to get better at looking at breadcrumbs... I never see them until people explain that they were there.

[Witherweaver]

faust, awesome job. I loved the flavor of this game. Very creative flips!

I also don't really understand my death N1...can scum explain that?

They thought you hammering PPS made you ICish and you weren't as likely to be doctored as WW or Voltaire. Interestingly they didn't consider killing ash who had breadcrumbed like mad (which is why I doctored him).

Why didn't you use the breadcrumbing as defense against Ash being scum?  Or do you think he would have made sure to do that as scum, too?

Also, I didn't pick up on the breadcrumbing.  I'm still not sure what posts it was, just that people were convinced he did it.

[pingpongsam]

Obviously hitting the jailkeeper D1 was really lucky for town.

It wasn't luck.

[pacovf]

Huh, Ash hadn't breadcrumbed, he had outright stated that he had a PR.

Read the Targaryen QT. I'm glad to see at least WW thought I was townie. And man, XP choices by the end were kinda scary.

[Teproc]

I never felt ash was in any danger of being lynched after day 2 and yeah, he could have breadcrumbed as scum.

I don't remember exactly but I remember it being really obvious, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it.

[Witherweaver]

I don't pick up on those things usually.

Huh, Ash hadn't breadcrumbed, he had outright stated that he had a PR.

Read the Targaryen QT. I'm glad to see at least WW thought I was townie. And man, XP choices by the end were kinda scary.

Hm.. I don't think he outright stated it.. he said something like "If I claimed daycop, would you believe me that Pac is scum?" or something.. I don't think that counts.

[pacovf]

Ash had breadcrumbed that he had a PR before he softclaimed. I mentioned that while Ash looked like a viable lynch for a moment, which was making me think.

Still, copping Voltaire was such a bad choice, I had to put him back on the table again.

[Teproc]

That wasn't it. It came later when were discussing plans to move.

[pacovf]

I'm tempted to full claim and get killed or ask for a replacement.

[pacovf]

All the posts leading to that were a crescendo of softclaims.

[silverspawn]

...I still don't understand the Azadin kill...

I was stupid. I thought something along the lines of "scum might try to kill baratheon(? (the house were we were in)) hand of the king. that's probably either voltaire or azadin, based on reputation. so, If I kill azadin, it might make people think that there is no scum in the house (because, then scum wouldn't know that it's voltaire and not azadin), when, in fact, both scum were in the house. but killing the hand of the king doesn't really do anything, so the plan was just, well, bad.

EgorK even suggested ash. that would have been a lot better. well, I didn't want to do ash because he suspected you, and I was hoping for a mislynch. Still, it would have been better.

[Teproc]

ash would have been much worse since he was doctored. azadin wasn't a bad kill really, it was a very safe kill because he was definitely not going to be doctored.

[silverspawn]

ash would have been much worse since he was doctored. azadin wasn't a bad kill really, it was a very safe kill because he was definitely not going to be doctored.

that doesn't change the fact that the primary motivation for the kill didn't make any sense.

I think the fact that he was doctored doesn't really change the situation. It's not about whether or not he was doctored, but about how likely it was that he would be at that time. And yea, it was kinda likely because he hinted at a PR, but still, I think when you lose 1 scum on day1, that's the type of situation where you have to take risks. I think ash was the best lynch in that situation. either him or robz.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Of course you guys had to go and win the game while I was asleep.

Congrats on MVP Voltaire!! You totally deserved it. I should have doctored you N3, but hindsight's 20/20 I guess.

And thanks for an awesome game faust! I don't know the flavor, but the house mechanics made things really interesting.

[EgorK]

Of course you guys had to go and win the game while I was asleep.

Congrats on MVP Voltaire!! You totally deserved it. I should have doctored you N3, but hindsight's 20/20 I guess.

And thanks for an awesome game faust! I don't know the flavor, but the house mechanics made things really interesting.

I'd used coin to decide between ash and volt both nights, so it is not like you made a mistake

[ashersky]

Great job Voltaire, agree with that MVP selection 100%.

[pacovf]

For what it's worth, I think you had a strong performance, Ash. The setup being closed, and lynching scum D1 and D2, are probably the only reasons people suspected you at all.

Well, aside from copping Voltaire, but let's not get back to that.

[ashersky]

For what it's worth, I think you had a strong performance, Ash. The setup being closed, and lynching scum D1 and D2, are probably the only reasons people suspected you at all.

Well, aside from copping Voltaire, but let's not get back to that.

You didn't bend under crazy ash pressure.  That was an awesome newbie performance in my book.  Glad to see I was wrong in the end about your alignment.

[Witherweaver]

For what it's worth, I think you had a strong performance, Ash. The setup being closed, and lynching scum D1 and D2, are probably the only reasons people suspected you at all.

Well, aside from copping Voltaire, but let's not get back to that.

You didn't bend under crazy ash pressure.  That was an awesome newbie performance in my book.  Glad to see I was wrong in the end about your alignment.

I didn't quite understand you pushing him so long.  Is that an attempt to stay in your meta, or did you really continue to believe he was scum after Day 2ish?  His play just didn't seem very scummy to me after Day 1.

I also initially threw my support behind Pacovf because I wanted to see how he (and others) would react.  And you've been calling scum out early pretty well lately.

[Hydrad]

This was a fun game. I've also learned that if someones VLA i should show them almost no mercy... as that really got me in trouble this game.

[Teproc]

For what it's worth, I think you had a strong performance, Ash. The setup being closed, and lynching scum D1 and D2, are probably the only reasons people suspected you at all.

Well, aside from copping Voltaire, but let's not get back to that.

You didn't bend under crazy ash pressure.  That was an awesome newbie performance in my book.  Glad to see I was wrong in the end about your alignment.

I didn't quite understand you pushing him so long.  Is that an attempt to stay in your meta, or did you really continue to believe he was scum after Day 2ish?  His play just didn't seem very scummy to me after Day 1.

I also initially threw my support behind Pacovf because I wanted to see how he (and others) would react.  And you've been calling scum out early pretty well lately.

Yeah but not like this. For instance : ash's perfect reads in Zelda weren't loud at all, he was loud about the L-1 thing but not about Andrew being scum.

WHen ash is screaming that he's 100% sure someone is scum, he's usually wrong.

[Witherweaver]

Well he had Lio pegged in Dice Mafia, and was adamant about Mail-Mi Day 1, and hammered Volt Day 1.

[Teproc]

I didn't play in that, was he as insistent about those reads as he was here ?

[Witherweaver]

I think so, though they didn't respond to him as much as Pac did, so there was less volume.

[Witherweaver]

But anyway, I pretty much wanted to jump on the wagon no matter what the case was.  I think others should have, too.  In particular, scum is probably going to want to avoid that wagon getting traction because it would look bad for them.  As Town I don't have to worry about that.

[Teproc]

That's fine, but I don't like doing that personally : wagonning people for reactions. It's not that it isn't a valid strategy, but I don't like doing it. Partly because I look super scummy when I do (it's how my only mislynch happened, more or less).

[pacovf]

Actually, I was a bit annoyed at first, because I didn't want to do scumhunting before we got the setup nailed down. I was also a bit afraid at the end of D1, because I wasn't there so I risked to be default lynched after XP got saved.

But after you softclaimed, I thought that maybe you were tunneling me as a sort of acti-lurking, so that scum would forget about you, hoping it would get you mislynched. So I didn't mind that much anymore. Especially because your long-winded version of your case against me talked about the "staccato" cadence of my posting or something; I thought you couldn't be that serious about my case when saying stuff like that.

[pacovf]

Oh, did this game break any length records?

[Teproc]

It's the longest 13-player game we've done, but that's about it. MC is close to 100 pages (this is 60 for me).

[pacovf]

The first day here was crazy. The setup discussion was really long, we got 27 pages in there in a single RL day. We ended D2 in page 99.

I guess silverspawn and Voltaire getting lynched slowed this down quite a bit. We also relied so much more on PRs starting D3, so really there weren't any more passionate discussions about anything. Everything was more clear cut and rational.

[Witherweaver]

Actually, I was a bit annoyed at first, because I didn't want to do scumhunting before we got the setup nailed down. I was also a bit afraid at the end of D1, because I wasn't there so I risked to be default lynched after XP got saved.

But after you softclaimed, I thought that maybe you were tunneling me as a sort of acti-lurking, so that scum would forget about you, hoping it would get you mislynched. So I didn't mind that much anymore. Especially because your long-winded version of your case against me talked about the "staccato" cadence of my posting or something; I thought you couldn't be that serious about my case when saying stuff like that.

I personally think that's not a great strategy.  Setup stuff is good, but it's ultimately not the most important thing.  And, talking about the setup is really, really easy.  Talking about other stuff of substance (scumhunting) is not easy, and in particular not easy as scum.  So only talking about setup/strategy is a classic scum tell.  See my partial reread of Silver.

[Teproc]

While I generally agree that theory talk is bad and you should feel bad, it was needed here, and was ultimately a big part of why the setup felt unbalanced. I really feel like we made the best possible choices with setup stuff and that meant that we would have been in a good position even if we had mislynched D1.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I think it has to be there, but I don't think it should be like everyone ignores all other parts of the game and just talks about theory for the first X days.

[pacovf]

I know, but well, this game lent itself to being broken, with the House system and all, so I thought town would win more from analyzing that than from trying to determine who was scum based on pure reads, D1 I mean. I did mention that I wanted to end the setup discussion as quickly as possible so that we could move on to scumhunting, and remained very active when we got the night moves settled halfway through D1 (I think I was the second person to post full reads).

[ashersky]

For what it's worth, I think you had a strong performance, Ash. The setup being closed, and lynching scum D1 and D2, are probably the only reasons people suspected you at all.

Well, aside from copping Voltaire, but let's not get back to that.

You didn't bend under crazy ash pressure.  That was an awesome newbie performance in my book.  Glad to see I was wrong in the end about your alignment.

I didn't quite understand you pushing him so long.  Is that an attempt to stay in your meta, or did you really continue to believe he was scum after Day 2ish?  His play just didn't seem very scummy to me after Day 1.

I also initially threw my support behind Pacovf because I wanted to see how he (and others) would react.  And you've been calling scum out early pretty well lately.

I mean, I was town, so "staying in my meta" wasn't a concern for me.

I was truly convinced very early on that he was scum.  I can't argue with the fact that as the game went on, he got townier and townier (to me).  But there was always a bit of omgus in my case after he kept suspecting me (wrongly as well).

If the game had continued, I would have been after XP before pacovf.

[Witherweaver]

Well I was thinking you might want to maintain a certain image as town, even if it's disingenuous, so that you can more easily replicate it for future scum play.

[Witherweaver]

Or just as a signal to others that you really are town.

[ashersky]

Well I was thinking you might want to maintain a certain image as town, even if it's disingenuous, so that you can more easily replicate it for future scum play.

I know people say this about a lot of players, but I don't do it.  I actually don't think very many players purposefully do something as town for future scum possibilities.

[Teproc]

Well I was thinking you might want to maintain a certain image as town, even if it's disingenuous, so that you can more easily replicate it for future scum play.

I know people say this about a lot of players, but I don't do it.  I actually don't think very many players purposefully do something as town for future scum possibilities.

I actually think this kind of metagaming is borderline cheating.

This is probably why I'm so bad at being scum.

[Archetype]

Cool game, faust! Balance wise, EgorK should probably have been a Godfather or have the Cop be replaced with something else (Redirector?), but really liked your implementation of having PRs divided amongst different neighborhoods.

[pingpongsam]

Well I was thinking you might want to maintain a certain image as town, even if it's disingenuous, so that you can more easily replicate it for future scum play.

I know people say this about a lot of players, but I don't do it.  I actually don't think very many players purposefully do something as town for future scum possibilities.

I actually think this kind of metagaming is borderline cheating.

This is probably why I'm so bad at being scum.

It's not cheating, I tell myself.