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Author Topic: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"  (Read 3739 times)

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jimjam

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Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« on: December 12, 2011, 06:42:03 pm »
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How much would you price this at? It's kind of a strange card but I'd like to compare it with Lab, Governor, Council Room.

Unfamiliar
Action-Attack
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player with more than 3 cards in hand discards a card.

$5 seems too low, perhaps $6 with +1 Buy?
$3p might also be good, though it would be inferior to familiar.
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biopower

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 09:06:05 pm »
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I'm reading this as a cantrip that's weaker than Militia, and takes two plays to be equal to a Militia. Am I missing something? Why is this $5? Seems like a $3 card to me.
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Robz888

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 09:14:16 pm »
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The attack aspect is fairly weak, and other than that the card just replaces itself. Even at $3, this doesn't strike me as a worthwhile purchase unless there were no other Attacks on the board (perhaps not even then.) If you add a +$1, you might be able to price it at $5 competitively--as a Market that substitutes the +1 buy for a weak Attack.
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Tables

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 09:59:07 pm »
+1

This card is weak as a single card, but slightly stronger if you can play two of them. A third and onwards is (usually) going to be of little value, essentially a no benefit cantrip.

$3 is the wrong price for this card. That low and multiplayer games will result in people often picking them up and knocking you down regularly to 3 card hands. $4 seems... reasonable enough. It's low enough that you can grab a few in 2 player and hope to get two together, but high enough you can't quickly grab them and impale your opponents with cantrip militias. In multiplayer, okay, you'll probably end up on 3 cards often enough still, but at least it won't happen all the time.

I think this is probably balanced at $4. I think Robz suggestion would make it too powerful - I'd almost always take it over market for example, and probably over Bazaar a lot of the time. Perhaps +1 buy and at $5 might be okay?
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jimjam

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 10:30:33 pm »
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Blah, don't know what I was thinking. $4 seems right to me.
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popsofctown

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 10:32:27 pm »
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It's totally a 3$ card.  Multiplayer can deal with it, if it's being spammed it's probably being played wrong anyway.

It will consistently hit estates unless you get two of them in one turn, and then we have a concept similar to Treasure Map.  At 4$ you're very nearly asking people to assemble a treasure map combo (1 card easier form chaining) just to get a militia with a Lab effect replacing the +2$ instead of gain 4 gold to top.  I don't think that's backbreaking enough to demand that much coordination.
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timchen

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 02:38:46 am »
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The difference between $3 and $4 here is quite small, as you probably shouldn't open with this.
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Davio

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 03:33:20 am »
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It doesn't give enough of an advantage to the player, so $5 is a bit harsh. It's like Saboteur in that way.

I think $4 is fine.

It's a good card to pick up later in a cantrippy engine (GMs, Minions, Scrying Decks), but making it $3 would maybe make it an automatic buy (like Menageries are now) instead of a real consideration. The difference between $4 and $3 is not relevant in the beginning, but more so later on if you're adding components to your deck with +Buys. You'll often buy (at least) one expensive card and use your surplus $ on cheap ones.
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jimjam

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 03:42:19 am »
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Ok, what it should have been was

+1 card/action
Everyone else gets hit with the Minion attack

What would you pay for it now? It wouldn't stack well, but the attack is quite stronger.
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Davio

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 04:46:56 am »
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Ok, what it should have been was

+1 card/action
Everyone else gets hit with the Minion attack

What would you pay for it now? It wouldn't stack well, but the attack is quite stronger.
Isn't this actually weaker?

Previously they could get discarded down to 3 by playing it 2 times, but now they get to keep 4 and can only be attacked once.
And those 4 new cards are just as random as the first 5, so for the other players the only difference is their free cycling. This may help them more than it hurts them in mid-game. In the beginning and end-game, having 1 card less is a pain though.

Why Minion is so good is that it attacks (and helps) the player who plays it. You could play 4 Minions for $2, play a 5th and draw 4 new cards.

I liked the first version better, it was also simpler and in hindsight I think it's a $3. It would maybe be a $4 if the attack was a complete Militia clone instead of a half clone.
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Qvist

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2011, 05:21:34 am »
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The idea is great. Familiar is an attack that is a cantrip that gives you no benefit.
So a handsize-reducing attack as a cantrip is a nice idea. The problem is that it's changes nothing if you play more than 2.
So I would change it into a Torturer like variant.

Familiar Torturer
+1 card
+1 action
Each other player chooses one: he discards 1 card; or he gains a Curse card, putting it in his hand.

rinkworks

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 08:32:48 am »
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A Minion attack and a Militia attack are roughly equal on average, I suspect.  One leaves you with 4 average cards; the other leaves you with 3 good cards.  You'd rather be Minioned if you're playing the kind of uniform deck Envoy is good with; you'd rather be Militiaed if you've got everything from power cards to curses.

The big difference is that the first version of the card only did half a Militia, and the second version does a full Minion.  I'd say $4 for the first, for the excellent reasons others have already posted.  This may be one of the few cases where the difference between $3 and $4 is significant after all, as Tables and Davio have said.  (Throne Room is another example where that difference is significant, and for the same reason.)

The second version is more powerful, but is it worth $5, where it competes with the actual Minion card?  I'd say it falls far short of a real Minion, and yet I can't see pricing it any less.  It's a pretty powerful attack to put on a cantrip, and the fact that you can throw one into virtually any kind of deck to significantly slow down your opponents is pretty rough.
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Epoch

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 02:11:38 pm »
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Isn't this actually weaker?

Previously they could get discarded down to 3 by playing it 2 times, but now they get to keep 4 and can only be attacked once.
And those 4 new cards are just as random as the first 5, so for the other players the only difference is their free cycling. This may help them more than it hurts them in mid-game. In the beginning and end-game, having 1 card less is a pain though.

No, previously, one play of it left you with the best 4 of 5 cards (usually not a big problem unless your deck has been very culled, since you likely have an Estate or at worst a Copper to discard).  This gives you a random 4 cards, which is fairly likely to include a Copper or Estate in those 4.
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Matt_Arnold

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2011, 12:27:53 am »
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Familitiarer
Type: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may discard a card. For each who does not, you take +1 VP.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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jimjam

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 05:26:59 am »
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No, it would have to hurt them/help everyone else instead of helping you/hurting everyone besides you if they didn't discard.
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popsofctown

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 05:57:11 am »
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Choosing to buy this over Silver "isn't a consideration"?

It's a miracle for it to -hit-a silver.
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Matt_Arnold

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Re: Pricing Question: "Unfamiliar"
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2011, 02:10:24 pm »
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No, it would have to hurt them/help everyone else instead of helping you/hurting everyone besides you if they didn't discard.
So you mean for instance:

Familitiarer
Type: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may discard a card. If he does not, each player other than him gains a VP chip.
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