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[blueblimp]

If I were running online Dominion, I'd have theme weeks (or fortnights?) in pro mode. When creating a game, you can choose between playing full random or according to the theme. For example, this week, the theme would be "every kingdom has Prince". Themes for other weeks could be things like biasing one expansion, or just selecting the cards from some two expansions, and so on. The point being that these are still pretty fair modes to influence pro rating and provide some variety.

[Awaclus]

If I were running online Dominion, I'd have theme weeks (or fortnights?) in pro mode. When creating a game, you can choose between playing full random or according to the theme. For example, this week, the theme would be "every kingdom has Prince". Themes for other weeks could be things like biasing one expansion, or just selecting the cards from some two expansions, and so on. The point being that these are still pretty fair modes to influence pro rating and provide some variety.

And whatever cards you don't have, are replaced by a random card from your collection.

[Witherweaver]

Sweet, now there are more cards for which there is too much lag to play with them.

[Beyond Awesome]

Here is a cool Bridge megaturn engine I pulled off with Prince in a game against Archetype. I forgot about Stonemason for an earlier buy. I could have actually got two Prince's at once sooner.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140828/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1409269887439.txt

For some reason, the log says Parsing right now...

[Titandrake]

Here is a cool Bridge megaturn engine I pulled off with Prince in a game against Archetype. I forgot about Stonemason for an earlier buy. I could have actually got two Prince's at once sooner.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140828/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1409269887439.txt

For some reason, the log says Parsing right now...

Most likely, the parser doesn't know how to handle Prince, so it's crashing somewhere.

[blueblimp]

Now that people have played with Prince a little, anyone feel like it's a bit weak?

In more kingdoms than I expected, there either isn't any action to connect it with at all, or it's an action that's not super inspiring to play at the start of your turn or that you don't want to mass enough of to make connecting easy.

Okay, so let's assume that the kingdom has an action worth princing. Then there is a dilemma: to reliably connect Prince with the action you want, it's kinda necessary to have a decent engine going, but if you DO have a decent engine going, Prince is likely to be very slow relative to the game pace. Barring some fanciness with gainers, you need at least two turns that are hampered by setup: buying the Prince, and princing the action. In a draw-your-deck engine, princing the action can sometimes be a drag because you lose out on the action's effect on that turn. Engines also get less value from the reliability added by Prince, because they needed to be reliable in the first place to connect.

In an engine, Prince also loses value because, at the point you're able to connect it, what you typically want is to increase the payload of your engine, and Prince does not do that. Compare to KC, where if you need to draw your deck to connect it, that may still be OK because it can power a megaturn.

The uses outside an engine feel horribly unreliable. It may sometimes win the game, but surely it's lower expected value than just taking a Province.

[Beyond Awesome]

Now that people have played with Prince a little, anyone feel like it's a bit weak?

In more kingdoms than I expected, there either isn't any action to connect it with at all, or it's an action that's not super inspiring to play at the start of your turn or that you don't want to mass enough of to make connecting easy.

Okay, so let's assume that the kingdom has an action worth princing. Then there is a dilemma: to reliably connect Prince with the action you want, it's kinda necessary to have a decent engine going, but if you DO have a decent engine going, Prince is likely to be very slow relative to the game pace. Barring some fanciness with gainers, you need at least two turns that are hampered by setup: buying the Prince, and princing the action. In a draw-your-deck engine, princing the action can sometimes be a drag because you lose out on the action's effect on that turn. Engines also get less value from the reliability added by Prince, because they needed to be reliable in the first place to connect.

In an engine, Prince also loses value because, at the point you're able to connect it, what you typically want is to increase the payload of your engine, and Prince does not do that. Compare to KC, where if you need to draw your deck to connect it, that may still be OK because it can power a megaturn.

The uses outside an engine feel horribly unreliable. It may sometimes win the game, but surely it's lower expected value than just taking a Province.

On some boards it is not useful, but on other boards, it is a must buy and a rush to get to Prince first. It is actually a very strong card when it is strong.

[Awaclus]

You don't need a reliable engine in order to connect Prince with the card you want to Prince (hopefully your +cards). Pulling it off once is good enough, and even unreliable engines are capable of that. And then Prince probably makes it reliable.

Actually, you don't even need any engine at all. It's probably very slightly easier to connect as Tournament (both require a $8 card, Tournament is always non-terminal which makes it easier to buy in large quantities but it can be bad later when your opponent has the Province, and it always costs $4 while Prince targets can be cheaper), and I frequently connect Tournaments with Provinces in not-very-engine decks.

[blueblimp]

Tournament has a number of advantages:
- You would be buying provinces anyway, so there's no opportunity cost with the $8, unlike with Prince where you must forgo a Province. This is a big deal since grabbing multiple Provinces is fine but buying multiple Princes before connecting is extremely slow.
- It's usually OK to get a few tournaments before connecting, which is not always true of the card you wish to pair with Prince. e.g. If you want to pair Prince with Smithy on a board with no villages, massing Smithy to increase connection chance is problematic.
- Tournament connection gives you an immediate big benefit that turn (Followers, anyway) while Prince doesn't start providing benefits until the next turn.

I currently expect that Prince will end up in a similar spot to Possession: typically a dead slot but very strong when viable. I don't have a good sense for what kingdoms those are yet.

[LastFootnote]

I think there's a lot of assumptions here that you have to connect Prince with one specific card. In reality, I'm usually willing to Prince whatever target is handy. It's usually still a big boost.

[werothegreat]

I played an in-person game with Prince the other day - I ended up Princing Crossroads, Oasis and Menagerie.  By having Oasis go first (typically), I ensured that Menagerie would go off, so I was starting my turn with 8 cards and 6 Actions.  Yeah, you can't really say that Prince is weak - even a card that would normally be considered "eh" to weak is quite powerful if it's played for free every turn.

[Awaclus]

I played an in-person game with Prince the other day - I ended up Princing Crossroads, Oasis and Menagerie.  By having Oasis go first (typically), I ensured that Menagerie would go off, so I was starting my turn with 8 cards and 6 Actions.  Yeah, you can't really say that Prince is weak - even a card that would normally be considered "eh" to weak is quite powerful if it's played for free every turn.

Though, it's mostly the Menagerie that makes it that strong, and it's definitely not considered "eh" to weak.

[silverspawn]

im not saying that prince is weak, but this is a really bad example. princing 3 cards has an opportune cost of probably about 4 provinces, which is almost as much as you need to ensure a win

[Witherweaver]

im not saying that prince is weak, but this is a really bad example. princing 3 cards has an opportune cost of probably about 4 provinces, which is almost as much as you need to ensure a win

Tack on 6VP to Prince.  Problem solved.

[Davio]

Now that people have played with Prince a little, anyone feel like it's a bit weak?

In more kingdoms than I expected, there either isn't any action to connect it with at all, or it's an action that's not super inspiring to play at the start of your turn or that you don't want to mass enough of to make connecting easy.

Okay, so let's assume that the kingdom has an action worth princing. Then there is a dilemma: to reliably connect Prince with the action you want, it's kinda necessary to have a decent engine going, but if you DO have a decent engine going, Prince is likely to be very slow relative to the game pace. Barring some fanciness with gainers, you need at least two turns that are hampered by setup: buying the Prince, and princing the action. In a draw-your-deck engine, princing the action can sometimes be a drag because you lose out on the action's effect on that turn. Engines also get less value from the reliability added by Prince, because they needed to be reliable in the first place to connect.

In an engine, Prince also loses value because, at the point you're able to connect it, what you typically want is to increase the payload of your engine, and Prince does not do that. Compare to KC, where if you need to draw your deck to connect it, that may still be OK because it can power a megaturn.

The uses outside an engine feel horribly unreliable. It may sometimes win the game, but surely it's lower expected value than just taking a Province.

If you are Princing a card you were able to play every turn anyway, you've only won a free action. And $8 is pretty expensive for a Village, or consider Herald at $4. So the part about the engine seems about right, but only for the really smooth engines.

There are a lot of in-between enginey things, where you have a bunch of useful action cards and some treasures and in those games Prince might work well. With engines we usually think of an all-action card deck with no Coppers or Estates and maybe 1 stray Silver. And we think there is only engine or big money, but there's a lot in between.

And for those in-between strategies, Prince is a bit of a gambit. It can definitely be fantastic if you get it early and connect early, and horrible if it's a dead Province worth 0 VP. It's a bit like Treasure Map that way.

In my view the closest I can compare it with is Possession: A big opportunity cost and you need some luck with it. You can possess someone's hand of 3 Estates and 2 Provinces or Possess someone's megaturn.

But Prince in Colony games should be pretty powerful, we're also buying Platinums instead of Provinces, are we not?

[silverspawn]

If you are Princing a card you were able to play every turn anyway, you've only won a free action.

that's wrong though, you get a free action and a free card.  Prince Lab, now you start each turn with 7 cards and 2 actions, not 6 cards and 2 actions

[liopoil]

I think prince is best in kingdoms short on cards and actions. If you can draw your deck and play every card reliably, prince does nothing. Prince is good for that extra reliability and power in a weak engine.

[Awaclus]

im not saying that prince is weak, but this is a really bad example. princing 3 cards has an opportune cost of probably about 4 provinces, which is almost as much as you need to ensure a win

Princing the first card makes it a lot easier to Prince the second card though. And Princing the second card makes it a lot easier to Prince the third card. Buying a Province makes it more difficult to buy another Province.

[Davio]

If you are Princing a card you were able to play every turn anyway, you've only won a free action.

that's wrong though, you get a free action and a free card.  Prince Lab, now you start each turn with 7 cards and 2 actions, not 6 cards and 2 actions

That's true, but still it doesn't seem worth it to play Prince on a card you're able to play anyway. I could understand it for the extra action, but doing it for an extra card you're able to draw anyway seems pointless.

[Holger]

I am wary of this change they made about Bots using the Pro Rating now, but whatever.  Those ratings probably won't be around forever anyway.

As I understand it, it's (supposed to be) only a change of interface. You could always play bots using pro or casual as you prefered, when using the multiplayer  lobby. 
The most user-friendly way would obviously be to have "Play bots" buttons for both casual and pro games; maybe next year...

Or do you mean the fact that the top 50 of the Pro leaderboard is now dominated by (to me) unknowns, many of which sound like Adventure bots? Maybe MF is now mixing up adventures and pro games, or is there an explanation for this?? I don't think it can be just because there are more bot pro games now...

[jsh357]

I am wary of this change they made about Bots using the Pro Rating now, but whatever.  Those ratings probably won't be around forever anyway.

As I understand it, it's (supposed to be) only a change of interface. You could always play bots using pro or casual as you prefered, when using the multiplayer  lobby. 
The most user-friendly way would obviously be to have "Play bots" buttons for both casual and pro games; maybe next year...

Or do you mean the fact that the top 50 of the Pro leaderboard is now dominated by (to me) unknowns, many of which sound like Adventure bots? Maybe MF is now mixing up adventures and pro games, or is there an explanation for this?? I don't think it can be just because there are more bot pro games now...

The fact that that happened is proof of my concern.  There is no way Stef, for instance, should be ranked as low as he is with these changes.  They should have at least worked out the issues before changing over.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.

[jsh357]

Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.

You should go bug David on the MakingFun forums.  He seems to listen to people, if nothing else.

[Beyond Awesome]

Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.

Did you clear your cache?


Anyway, all this talk about buying Province over Prince is wrong. I don't know about you, but I usually tried to hold off from greening as long as possible. So, on your first $8, one rarely wants Province, so in many cases getting that Prince is often the right choice. It is also a lot easier to buy Prince over Possession because Possession requires that you have to get a Potion.

[Davio]

I have a feeling Prince might work better as a Potion card, costing something like 4P or 5P.

At 4P it's the same cost as Golem and they do feel similar to me. Golem always hits 2 action cards, but not the ones in your hand. Prince always plays 1 $4- card, but they both have to be in your hand when you set it up.

Golem and Prince just seem like cousins, I guess Golem is from the poor side of the family.