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Author Topic: How do you play this kingdom?  (Read 9792 times)

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timchen

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How do you play this kingdom?
« on: August 20, 2014, 07:44:46 pm »
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Ok, so here's a kingdom I randomly encountered with androiminion. I think it's an interesting one, especially with more players involved.

Fortune Teller, Swindler, Bridge, Salvager, Counterfeit, Governer, Highway, Knights, Torturer, Nobles

(Sorry, I still haven't figured out how to automatically generate images.)

How would you play this game with 2, 4, or even 6 players? What would you imagine will happen?
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 07:51:38 pm »
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(Sorry, I still haven't figured out how to automatically generate images.)

In order to generate the kingdom you need a url of the log of the game.  Since this game was not played on goko, you can't generate the kingdom image.  But, for future reference, the image building tool is here.

As far as the kingdom itself goes, it sure has some power cards.  The first thing I noticed was Governor, because the governor engine (gaining golds, remodeling golds is so fast and so powerful).  I think that this engine is probably the best route because the only village that you have is Nobles, which is terrible being used exclusively as a village.  Whatever the case, you can't ignore governor, you will definitely want counterfeit, I would probably open silver/salvager.  (maybe bridge but I don't think so) and just start revving up those governors as fast as possible.
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Awaclus

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 07:55:27 pm »
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In order to generate the kingdom you need a url of the log of the game.  Since this game was not played on goko, you can't generate the kingdom image.
Well, you can always play a game with that kingdom on Goko first, if you have the cards.
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timchen

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 08:07:11 pm »
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Well, you can always play a game with that kingdom on Goko first, if you have the cards.
That is precisely the problem.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 11:22:13 pm »
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I open double swindler and get at least 1 governor with the first $5, which I use strictly as a gold gainer and silver junker  (Gold can only be swindled into Nobles which are fine, Silver can be swindled into Fortune Teller which is bad).

I think I get Counterfeit with a second $5 to clear out some coppers/silvers.

An argument could be made for Counterfeit with first $5, not sure which is better but I tend to reflexively get at least one Governer as I figure its gold gaining adds a measure of "safety" whatever else happens.

The rest depends on the momentum of the game, Swindler adds a lot of variability, as does the Knights order, so I think it's hard to offer an ideal overall strategy especially with no villages.
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ConMan

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 11:46:22 pm »
+3

Governor/Bridge is a fun "are you paying attention" combo. Probably moreso on iso than on Goko or in RL, but still fun to see how many times you can pull it before people realise.

For those unfamiliar, if you play village/Bridge/Governor (or just Highway/Governor) and choose the remodel option, see if your opponents realise that they can't trash Coppers into nothing because suddenly they're gaining Estates.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 02:04:13 am »
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Although straightforward Governor gain Gold - remodel Gold is pretty fast, and probably correct, I'll propose a more off the way answer - Governor/Highway.

In this plan, I'd say, Swinder/Silver into Counterfeit on first $5, then Governors. Use Governors exclusively to draw cards, Counterfeit gives you the +Buy. Ideally, get to 3 Highways, which lets you remodel Copper or Estate or Silver into more Highways and Governors and Counterfeit. Making sure you only play 3 Highways a turn, collect all the $5 cost pieces you can, since they can only trash their Coppers for Bridge/Salvager. Then, play the rest of your Highways and use your 1x Swindler to wreak havoc, building up to a megaturn.

Problems: takes a long time to set up, you probably won't have time to get Nobles because you either sacrifice a Governor/Highway buy or allow others to trash $0 -> $5 cost with 4 Highways in play, having to play only 3 Highways per turn means you'll accumulate "junk", heavily accelerates everyone else. Most likely, the Governor-Gold player will be able to use Counterfeit to get a thin deck, then ignore the Highway thing and Counterfeit-Gold to get lots of money.

Well, it's neat, and in the super-hypothetical of very large VP piles, the ability to Swindle Provinces into Copper with 8 Highway and/or Bridges in play would let you catch up, but I think by the time you get there, the game will have ended twice over.
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timchen

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 03:16:44 am »
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I believe in a 2-player game, governor-gold is pretty strong as mentioned. However, I think BM-torturer is actually not that far off. The free silvers really help that strategy; also, without trashing Governor itself is not that explosive as it also needs to be the draw. With trashing, however, early torturer really hurts your buy power and delay you.

My experience of the kingdom, however, is exclusively with 6p games, sometimes with shelters. It is really different, in the way that even if only two other players go for torturer, the game already lasts much longer, especially with a few Swindlers thrown in to turn your starting coppers into curses. The interaction between Fortune teller and Swindler is also interesting, especially when hit by torturer. Should one discard Estate or not? When one discards it, it may be brought to the front of deck right away by Fortune teller. But then it acts as a defense to Swindler.

In my experience, Counterfeit is almost always too slow, as it competes with Governor. In the shelters game, the Salvager opening can stuck below $5 for really long. Building up the deck is really hard, facing so many attacks. Usually torturer+BM wins, but in the rare case when I won, I did manage to do the highway+Swindler/Knight combo, with the help from Dame Molly.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 07:31:14 am »
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My experience of the kingdom, however, is exclusively with 6p games

oh my.  6 players is a lot.  I think swindler/governor is definitely the way to go then.  Swindler because you will likely screw at least one person by trashing one of their good cards.  Governor because it is so fast and you want to green fast. 

Do you play with any house rules because you have so many people?  If so, that would change the dynamic quite a bit (mainly you would have a bit more time to build your deck) For example, do you play with 12 in each victory pile or do you house rule it into say 15 for 6 players?  Also, still a 3 pile game or is that house-ruled into 4 piles or something?
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2014, 08:36:37 am »
+2

4 pile is the official 5-6 player rule actually.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 10:14:51 am »
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I can only imagine the horror of a 6-player Swindler game.  I feel bad for players 5 and 6 who can only get 1 Swindler.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 10:18:50 am »
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I can only imagine the horror of a 6-player Swindler game.  I feel bad for players 5 and 6 who can only get 1 Swindler.
Plus, it's very much possible that their only Swindlers get Swindled into something else before they even have the chance to play them.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 10:39:10 am »
+5

Governor/Bridge is a fun "are you paying attention" combo. Probably moreso on iso than on Goko or in RL, but still fun to see how many times you can pull it before people realise.

For those unfamiliar, if you play village/Bridge/Governor (or just Highway/Governor) and choose the remodel option, see if your opponents realise that they can't trash Coppers into nothing because suddenly they're gaining Estates.

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 11:00:11 am »
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I believe in a 2-player game, governor-gold is pretty strong as mentioned. However, I think BM-torturer is actually not that far off. The free silvers really help that strategy; also, without trashing Governor itself is not that explosive as it also needs to be the draw. With trashing, however, early torturer really hurts your buy power and delay you.
No that is because a torturer-bm is low-skill strategy while governor is high skill one. Barring swindler luck I would give around 20% chance to torturer-bm versus experienced opponent. There are plenty of things that need to be done correctly, I believe that salvager silver then counterfeit on first 5 are best oppening as it helps hit 5 and do trashing. Then in midgame often remodeling silver into governor is correct decision. Also for engine you could get nobles, and two torturers that you play each turn after drawing with governor. Opponent torturers are minor nuisance as you could trash curses with salvager
[/quote]

Quote
My experience of the kingdom, however, is exclusively with 6p games, sometimes with shelters. It is really different, in the way that even if only two other players go for torturer, the game already lasts much longer, especially with a few Swindlers thrown in to turn your starting coppers into curses. The interaction between Fortune teller and Swindler is also interesting, especially when hit by torturer. Should one discard Estate or not? When one discards it, it may be brought to the front of deck right away by Fortune teller. But then it acts as a defense to Swindler.

Just play two three player games, 6p is decided by swindler luck and best way to win it is be starting player and/or get governor in 5-2 opening.

Here it looks that a double swindler is opening which means that likely everybody will go for it. A likely consequence is that by turn 7 curses, estates and swindlers will run out and average deck will have trouble hitting 4. I would rush duchies and hope they do not get turned into highways as this will likely end on forth pile being fortune tellers or duchies depending on swindler luck. I would say that torturer is too slow if you do not open with it, drawing three cards does no good if they are copper, curse and fortune teller. Attack is weak when its likely that likely its just discard two curses or gain a curse when you have good hand as these will get swindled back to copper soon.

Although straightforward Governor gain Gold - remodel Gold is pretty fast, and probably correct, I'll propose a more off the way answer - Governor/Highway.

In this plan, I'd say, Swinder/Silver into Counterfeit on first $5, then Governors. Use Governors exclusively to draw cards, Counterfeit gives you the +Buy. Ideally, get to 3 Highways, which lets you remodel Copper or Estate or Silver into more Highways and Governors and Counterfeit. Making sure you only play 3 Highways a turn, collect all the $5 cost pieces you can, since they can only trash their Coppers for Bridge/Salvager. Then, play the rest of your Highways and use your 1x Swindler to wreak havoc, building up to a megaturn.

Problems: takes a long time to set up, you probably won't have time to get Nobles because you either sacrifice a Governor/Highway buy or allow others to trash $0 -> $5 cost with 4 Highways in play, having to play only 3 Highways per turn means you'll accumulate "junk", heavily accelerates everyone else. Most likely, the Governor-Gold player will be able to use Counterfeit to get a thin deck, then ignore the Highway thing and Counterfeit-Gold to get lots of money.

Well, it's neat, and in the super-hypothetical of very large VP piles, the ability to Swindle Provinces into Copper with 8 Highway and/or Bridges in play would let you catch up, but I think by the time you get there, the game will have ended twice over.

That will help opponent governors more than you and you need to deal with silver flood. Only way this could work is get two highways and use nobles+knights to trash provinces/governors but when opponent got good governor split he could do gold flood to compensate.
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timchen

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 04:54:10 pm »
+1

oh my.  6 players is a lot.  I think swindler/governor is definitely the way to go then.  Swindler because you will likely screw at least one person by trashing one of their good cards.  Governor because it is so fast and you want to green fast. 

Do you play with any house rules because you have so many people?  If so, that would change the dynamic quite a bit (mainly you would have a bit more time to build your deck) For example, do you play with 12 in each victory pile or do you house rule it into say 15 for 6 players?  Also, still a 3 pile game or is that house-ruled into 4 piles or something?
I can only imagine the horror of a 6-player Swindler game.  I feel bad for players 5 and 6 who can only get 1 Swindler.

I play 6p simply because that gives the AI a higher chance to win. AIs in androidominion are not that smart. I think the biggest notable difference for a 6p game is that there are 18 provinces (and 12 estates, 12 duchies, lots of treasure).

It is intriguing people seem to think Swindler is more powerful in 6p games. They certainly wreck more havoc, but I don't think they are more powerful. If anything, it's similar to Witch or Militia that they are less powerful. The few attack cards that get more powerful with more players are thief, noble brigand and Jester, and they are more powerful due to their non-attack part. So I think, yeah, it's possible for everyone to go for swindlers just for its ramified effect, but that is probably not the best strategy on this board.

No that is because a torturer-bm is low-skill strategy while governor is high skill one. Barring swindler luck I would give around 20% chance to torturer-bm versus experienced opponent. There are plenty of things that need to be done correctly, I believe that salvager silver then counterfeit on first 5 are best oppening as it helps hit 5 and do trashing. Then in midgame often remodeling silver into governor is correct decision. Also for engine you could get nobles, and two torturers that you play each turn after drawing with governor. Opponent torturers are minor nuisance as you could trash curses with salvager
It is certainly true that governor-gold strategy is of higher skill, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is therefore better. For this kingdom, in a 2p game, yes, I think it is better. However, say in a 3 player game with two other players going for BM-torturer, it already becomes hard to say. The free silver from governor helps those two players the same as in a 2p-game, whereas their attack stacks against you.


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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 05:25:53 pm »
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Quote
It is intriguing people seem to think Swindler is more powerful in 6p games. They certainly wreck more havoc, but I don't think they are more powerful.

The problem is the damage dealt to your deck in between turns. Any one swindler isn't more powerful but the cumulative effect is. It opens up new swindling strategies even, such as terminal overload, that can be ineffective in two player. There are also problems in finding counter strategies that work well since junking outstrips clean-up. For example opening salvager/silver in this kingdom risks a fatal income drop when your coppers are trashed for curses but the risk is much higher in multiplayer than two player.

You also need to consider swindlers trashing swindlers. The attack defends your deck on future turns. If the swindler pile runs out then you probably want some of the last swindlers in your deck. If decks are badly junked the end game can often include duchy scoring and a three pile ending, and the swindler can contest both of those.
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timchen

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 05:58:02 pm »
+2

Yes, the card itself becomes more powerful due to the cumulative effect, but that does not mean that one would like to get more swindlers, or should be in favor of swindler instead of other cards.

For example, take the defense effect you mentioned about swindler trashing swindlers. The effect of playing a swindler in the hope of trashing another swindler is actually not better in a 6p game comparing to a 2p game; yes you are more likely to trash some swindlers but per opponent the expectation value of swindlers trashed is the same. And this defense is actually less effective because their swindlers can trash each other. To make this explicit, consider a 2p and 3p game. In a 2p game, if you have no swinder, you cannot get rid of your opponent's swindler. In a 3p game however, assuming that both of your opponents go swindler, then half of the defense is automatically done for you. So the difference of having a swindler in your deck in this aspect of defense is halved. This is pretty similar to how you can want Moat more instead of Witch in a 4p game.

Long story short, yes, the effect of swindlers in the game is there. Your deck will be constantly changing and you will be poorer. However, these are given facts and does not have to do with whether you have a swindler or not. And I don't think the best response here is to get a swindler yourself.

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2014, 08:26:45 pm »
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Shorter story: timchen's analysis is wrong and swindler dominates on this board, irrespective of the number of players.

You want to get at least 2 and probably replace them even if your opponent(s) swindle them into fortune tellers.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 01:52:03 pm »
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There are a number of cards that I simply wont play with in a game with more than 4 people: Torturer, swindler, cutpurse, and  sometimes ghost ship.  Because if you get hit by 2-3 of each per turn, or ghost ship every turn it makes the game almost unplayable.

I think your experience is a bit poisoned by the terrible AI in Androminion.  They simply dont have many good preprogrammed strategies, other than one of the bots that plays minion fairly well and another bot that plays big money + x.  In a game with real players, and soon as one person opened swindler, they other 5 probably would also open double swindler, and you'd end up with a completely luck based game with swindlers, estates, curses and fortune tellers gone by turn 8. 
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timchen

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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 04:33:17 pm »
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Yeah, maybe I am biased, but what you are saying here is called groupthink.

Is there a valid argument how Swindler becomes stronger with more players? Sure it swindles more cards, but that is the same as Witch which dishes out more curses. And we KNOW that witch actually becomes weaker.

Even in the case you mentioned, isn't it pretty obvious that if I know others are going swindlers, I am better off getting silvers so that I can alleviate the terminal overload issue (+that everyone is swindling so it doesn't hurt as much that I am not)?
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 04:46:16 pm »
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The only argument that I can think of is like why treasure maps become better with more players.  It's a swingy card, and you need variance to win (in say, a game with 6 strong players).  Against the 5 bad AIs, this argument is much less true.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2014, 08:04:03 pm »
+1

Yeah, maybe I am biased, but what you are saying here is called groupthink.

Is there a valid argument how Swindler becomes stronger with more players? Sure it swindles more cards, but that is the same as Witch which dishes out more curses. And we KNOW that witch actually becomes weaker.

Even in the case you mentioned, isn't it pretty obvious that if I know others are going swindlers, I am better off getting silvers so that I can alleviate the terminal overload issue (+that everyone is swindling so it doesn't hurt as much that I am not)?

It's not that Swindler is stronger.  It's just your deck is just weaker due to the obscene amount of times your deck is swindled.  Coppers into Curses.  Swindlers into Woodcutter.  $5 into Duchy.  You can't plan a deck with that type of junk.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2014, 09:37:22 pm »
+1

 
Quote
Is there a valid argument how Swindler becomes stronger with more players?

Faster game (or end game comes before decks are well developed)
Some control of card gaining for 3 pile endings
Duchies are more likely to be bought and vulnerable
At worst a +2 coin income card
Alternative strategies are weaker including alt vp
Concerted swindling can be more punishing, including terminal overload
Reduces the chance of one opponent getting a dominant position (free ride)
Chance of having a permanent advantage if the swindler pile empties

If you can build a deck that has a sound defense to swindlers then that's still a good strategy, and your logic about the attackers damaging each other will hold true, but with more opponents it can be more difficult to get that sound defense started.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:39:35 pm by DG »
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2014, 04:16:55 am »
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It seems to me that these points are saying how "enginey" strategies will tend to fail in this situation, which I certainly agree. However, I don't think in this situation swindler itself is the best card to get. For one thing, silver is better if you are afraid of the terminal overloading problem. Also, "some control" of card gaining sometimes is a negative thing, say when you hit an Estate or Province for example.

In this particular kingdom, under this situation, I think Torturer+BM is better than Swindler+BM. While +3 cards can give you less than $2, cycle through those cards are important, too. Swindler+Governor is probably also better, but I think Governor strategies (even though becomes a lot less stable) can also work with other terminals.
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Re: How do you play this kingdom?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2014, 10:58:11 am »
+1

For 2 player, this could be an interesting kingdom. Because both Salvager and Counterfeit are present, the trashing of starting cards is actually quite strong, although trashing of curses is not so great. While Nobles is ordinarily a weak village, here it's fine, because you can draw them using Governor (and maybe a couple Torturers) then deliver a powerful payload of Bridges supported by Highway plays.

However, even in 2 player, an engine with a Bridge payload seems likely to lose to an engine with a Swindler or Knight payload, especially given that Governor and Highway are good targets for Swindler and that 4 Highway plays make Bridges good targets too. I only say "seems likely" because the megaturn engine might be able to respond to Swindler by grabbing 3-ish Provinces early and hoping the Swindler hits them to accelerate the game. But even then, 2xHighway-Knight is capable of trashing the Provinces.

On second thought, the Knight attack is probably more valuable than Swindler here, because it's more effective vs Swindlers, Bridges, and Nobles, and looks at two cards instead of one. With Counterfeit trashing coppers, Swinder's copper->curse won't be super relevant.

Given that Salvager is the fastest way to get rid of curses here and it's slow to do it, Torturer stacking is also a strong threat. Some of the curses will be dealt by Swindler, so I think you don't want to go full-on Torturer but rather just mix them into the engine.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 11:00:34 am by blueblimp »
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