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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part II  (Read 570743 times)

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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #525 on: September 21, 2014, 01:12:19 am »
0

Yeah that sounds like it'd be a lot easier to be honest.  IF($C3<WORKDAY(NOW(),2), etc.  Would certainly be easier to maintain.  And I imagine there are "libraries" of pre-generated holidays.

But it also needs to take into account that I'll be running this all five workdays. I've considered modding, but I think that may be making it too complex. In any case, my mini-boast wasn't for the efficiency of the formula (which is actually quite sloppy) but that I actually managed to type that in without generating an error. I almost always have to play bug hunt with Excel formulas and sometimes have to test out portions before piecing everything together.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #526 on: September 21, 2014, 01:58:24 am »
0

eHalcyon, that all just amounts to a conspiracy theory. The movie hints at none of that. This ain't Inception, where the ending is left purposefully ambiguous. You (or someone else) has created this interpretation from whole cloth. If the movie really is trying to tell the story as you describe, it does a tremendously bad job of it.

I could say that the events of Groundhog Day all took place in the unhinged mind of Bill Murray's character. I could easily concoct a whole detailed description of what the events of the movie actually signified was happening in reality. It would all be internally consistent, but that wouldn't matter because the movie is already a work of fiction and that's not the story it's trying to tell.

I respectfully disagree.  I think there are multiple hints.  The closing narration is one hint, as is the very theme of the film itself.  I also noted the comment made by Algiers to Cutter, about not being backstage.  I think there are more.  But again, that's from what I remember on first viewing, which is why I want to watch it again.  This is the impression that the film left on me from the first viewing, and not just something come up with on reflection.  This theory occurred to me right when Tesla implied that he could build a machine to scientifically teleport somebody and it only grew stronger when when the cats and hats cloning was revealed.  I thought it had to be deception, and nothing I saw seemed contradictory to that theory.  I was only surprised that they didn't come right out and confirm the deception, but it fit the theme of the film to leave it ambiguous
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #527 on: September 21, 2014, 02:08:40 am »
0

On pacovf's question...

Do any of you think that Algier's clones were himself? Or somebody else with identical memories?
Do you think that the computer version of Johnny Depp (in Trascendence) was Johnny Depp, or something else entirely?
Would your consider that they are the same only in the very precise instant of their creation? For either of them?

There's actually a pokemon answer to this as well.  Background: It's possible to clone pokemon.  Even in XY, if you shut off one DS in the middle of a trade and time it correctly, you can end up with two copies of the same pokemon.  This devalues the pokemon in the eyes of many players.  There are subreddits for trading pokemon, and the biggest one rules that no cloned pokemon can be traded.  Enforcement of this rule is tricky, of course.

So the question is, can you trade the original pokemon and just keep the clone?  The answer is no.  They say:

"When you clone something, you cannot then trade the original. There is no original. There are just two clones."

You can't really tell the difference between either, so both are clones.


I'm not sure if I agree with that, but it's an interesting interpretation.  If the copy is indistiguishable from the original, I think the differentiating factor is in how the machine works.  If it's supposedly a teleporting machine that leaves a copy behind, then the original is the one that ends up in the new location.  If it creates a copy at the other location, then the one that did not move is the original.  But this is really a semantic argument, I guess?
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blueblimp

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #528 on: September 21, 2014, 03:00:31 am »
+1

The thing that bugged me most about the plot of The Prestige is if you have a device that can duplicate things, there are a huge number of ethically sound and financially more rewarding things you can do with it. The implausibility of the sci-fi tech is way out of proportion with the purpose that it's put to. It's been a while since I watched the movie, so maybe that's explained away somehow.
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Titandrake

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #529 on: September 21, 2014, 04:27:30 am »
+1

The thing that bugged me most about the plot of The Prestige is if you have a device that can duplicate things, there are a huge number of ethically sound and financially more rewarding things you can do with it. The implausibility of the sci-fi tech is way out of proportion with the purpose that it's put to. It's been a while since I watched the movie, so maybe that's explained away somehow.

Part of the point of The Prestige is that both of the main characters are super obsessed/crazy. There are things they could do, but creating the perfect trick is strong enough to overpower all their other desires.
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #530 on: September 21, 2014, 08:03:55 am »
0

the illusion theory is awesome. dunno if it's likely, but it's awesome. I really want to believe that it's true, or, at least that nolan considered it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #531 on: September 21, 2014, 10:30:28 am »
0

The thing that bugged me most about the plot of The Prestige is if you have a device that can duplicate things, there are a huge number of ethically sound and financially more rewarding things you can do with it. The implausibility of the sci-fi tech is way out of proportion with the purpose that it's put to. It's been a while since I watched the movie, so maybe that's explained away somehow.

It was never about the money. Algiers actually comes from a rich family.
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #532 on: September 21, 2014, 10:00:03 pm »
0

i just saw a guy on goko with 5,5k pro rating and an ISO lvl of -6

 ???
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liopoil

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #533 on: September 21, 2014, 10:05:15 pm »
0

i just saw a guy on goko with 5,5k pro rating and an ISO lvl of -6

 ???
he probably had only played a few pro games or played a bunch of bots.
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #534 on: September 21, 2014, 10:30:39 pm »
0

Quote
888poker makes every effort to ensure that your withdrawal request is processed as quickly and efficiently as possible.

the withdrawal process takes between 5 and 10 days. first there is a completely unnecessary ~3-8 day "awaiting process" time frame, during which you can cancel your withdrawal (which you get rubbed into your face constantly), and then there is a ~2 day "processing" frame.

if you deposit money, it takes -literally- less than 20 seconds. the quoted statement is such a blatant lie, it's ridiculous. you should sue them for it.

dunno why i posted this.  :-X
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Kirian

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #535 on: September 21, 2014, 11:50:26 pm »
+1

dunno why i posted this.  :-X

* Kirian points at the thread title
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blueblimp

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #536 on: September 22, 2014, 01:50:36 am »
0

The thing that bugged me most about the plot of The Prestige is if you have a device that can duplicate things, there are a huge number of ethically sound and financially more rewarding things you can do with it. The implausibility of the sci-fi tech is way out of proportion with the purpose that it's put to. It's been a while since I watched the movie, so maybe that's explained away somehow.

It was never about the money. Algiers actually comes from a rich family.
Fair point, but I was just using financials as an example. Having a exact duplicator is like a cheat code to the universe. There's barely anything that you CAN'T do with it, given enough creativity. To use it to fake teleporting across a room is just mind-bogglingly small-minded.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #537 on: September 22, 2014, 02:13:56 am »
+5

The thing that bugged me most about the plot of The Prestige is if you have a device that can duplicate things, there are a huge number of ethically sound and financially more rewarding things you can do with it. The implausibility of the sci-fi tech is way out of proportion with the purpose that it's put to. It's been a while since I watched the movie, so maybe that's explained away somehow.

It was never about the money. Algiers actually comes from a rich family.
Fair point, but I was just using financials as an example. Having a exact duplicator is like a cheat code to the universe. There's barely anything that you CAN'T do with it, given enough creativity. To use it to fake teleporting across a room is just mind-bogglingly small-minded.

Yeah, that's true enough.




On a completely different note...





Edit: and also...

« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:15:52 am by eHalcyon »
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Lekkit

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #538 on: September 22, 2014, 07:15:54 am »
+6

Enjoy the nostalgia.

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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #539 on: September 22, 2014, 11:14:34 am »
0

eHalcyon, that all just amounts to a conspiracy theory. The movie hints at none of that. This ain't Inception, where the ending is left purposefully ambiguous. You (or someone else) has created this interpretation from whole cloth. If the movie really is trying to tell the story as you describe, it does a tremendously bad job of it.

I could say that the events of Groundhog Day all took place in the unhinged mind of Bill Murray's character. I could easily concoct a whole detailed description of what the events of the movie actually signified was happening in reality. It would all be internally consistent, but that wouldn't matter because the movie is already a work of fiction and that's not the story it's trying to tell.

I respectfully disagree.  I think there are multiple hints.  The closing narration is one hint, as is the very theme of the film itself.  I also noted the comment made by Algiers to Cutter, about not being backstage.  I think there are more.  But again, that's from what I remember on first viewing, which is why I want to watch it again.  This is the impression that the film left on me from the first viewing, and not just something come up with on reflection.  This theory occurred to me right when Tesla implied that he could build a machine to scientifically teleport somebody and it only grew stronger when when the cats and hats cloning was revealed.  I thought it had to be deception, and nothing I saw seemed contradictory to that theory.  I was only surprised that they didn't come right out and confirm the deception, but it fit the theme of the film to leave it ambiguous.

As for the comment to Cutter, you said that you thought it meant just for that one show (when Borden would be there).

I'll have to watch it again, but I remember Algiers telling Cutter that he didn't want him backstage "this time", for the last performance.  It implied that Cutter had been there before, but this particular performance was special.  It would be the last performance, the one where curiosity got the better of Borden and end with him framed for murder.

But that's just wrong. It's clear from the way the two are speaking that this is the first time they've met since Angiers's return and Angiers doesn't want Cutter backstage for any of these performances. He says "this time" because Cutter had been backstage for all of Angiers's other runs, the ones before he went to meet with Tesla.

Compare the movie's actual twist to the one you've concocted. The actual twist is that Borden is two different people. There are all sorts of hints to that throughout the movie (he acts radically differently toward the two women in his life depending on who he is; his wound suddenly gets worse as if he'd just sustained it; he immediately understands the goldfish bowl trick). The film gives you zero hints that the machine doesn't actually work. Your explanation involves Root coming back. That's not hinted at. You say the bodies in the tanks at the end are fakes. That also isn't hinted at. So as I said, if your story is meant to be the real one, the film does a spectacularly bad job at telling that story. On the other hand, it does a great job at telling the story it actually presents.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #540 on: September 22, 2014, 12:11:51 pm »
0

(counter-arguments)

As I recall, Cutter met Algiers earlier, when he had returned and was setting up the theater.  Algiers even called upon Cutter for help from his contacts (one of whom to which he demonstrated the trick).  The comment about not wanting Cutter backstage is not made until the night of the performance where Borden was caught.

As for the lack of hints, I already listed a few hints that suggest that there is a trick, though there aren't so many hints as to how the trick was performed.  And that's how it should be for this kind of film.  For the former, I think I can find more when I watch it again.  Again, if they were really clones, it sounds like an enormous plot hole that Algiers would keep dozens of human bodies floating in tanks, where they should have been rotting and attracting attention from people at the theatre.  And even the closing narration suggests that there is a trick!  For the latter, by my theory, the film tells the story exactly as it wants to, fitting with several of its themes: illusion, misdirection, and deception.

Like any good film about magicians, it quickly establishes that there is no real magic.  There are only illusions.  This immediately suggests that there is more to the story than what we see, and it would be poor form for the film to spell it out to us, the audience.

Misdirection is a key part of magic acts.  Magicians get you to watch one thing ("are you watching closely?") when the real trick is happening elsewhere.  They may even let you think you've discovered the trick, just so you don't notice the mischief going on somewhere else.  Misdirection is key!  It's also key to the interaction between Algiers and Borden, and I believe it is key to the story behind the machine.

Borden misdirects Algiers by pointing him to Tesla, and he does it by letting Algiers think that he was the one that was two steps ahead.  Algiers thought he had stolen the diary with the help of his ex-assistant, but it was planted by Borden and she was in on it.  He thought he had forced Borden to give him the cypher key when that was Borden's plan all along.

In the prison, Borden misdirects a prison guard by performing a simple little trick.  The guard jeers when Borden appears to make a mistake, but it was all a distraction from the real trick -- slipping the chains and tying up the guard.

I believe Algiers misdirects Borden with his own act, both during the show and outside of the show, with the blind stage hands and moving of tanks, and later with his own fake diary.  And I believe that the film is misdirecting us in the way it presents the ending, showing us something astonishing and magical when the truth is much more mundane.  We are handed the explanations to many other tricks so that when no explanation is given for this final trick, we'd assume that the magic is real.

Finally, deception.  The old Chinese magician with the goldfish trick commits entirely to his deception of frailty in order to perform his trick successfully.  Borden commits entirely to his deception of being just one man, again to perform a very convincing illusion.  Tesla commits to his deception of having built Borden a teleportation machine (whether acting as an opportunist or having been tipped off by Borden previously) and keeps Algiers on the hook for two years, funding his research!  Algiers is deceptive as well, hiding his true identity and wealth from his colleagues until the very end.  Is it really a surprise that the film would deceive us in its final act?

I'd say that you are right -- the film does a great job at telling the story it presents... just like a magician!  And it's not that the film does a bad job at telling my version of the events.  Rather, the film does a great job at hiding that real story -- again, just like a magician.  My explanation may not be perfect, since it's little better than if I were to try to guess at how a magician performs his act IRL.  But that's not important.  The point is that the magic -- and the cloning -- was never real.  That's just the story we are sold.
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Teproc

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #541 on: September 22, 2014, 12:38:20 pm »
+3

As much as I enjoy looking at big walls of spoilered texts, shouldn't this be in the movie thread ? Or a specific one ?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #542 on: September 22, 2014, 12:41:19 pm »
0

As much as I enjoy looking at big walls of spoilered texts, shouldn't this be in the movie thread ? Or a specific one ?

It's just random characters inside the spoiler tags.
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Eevee

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #543 on: September 22, 2014, 01:48:12 pm »
+3

As much as I enjoy looking at big walls of spoilered texts, shouldn't this be in the movie thread ? Or a specific one ?

It's just random characters inside the spoiler tags.
That's one interpretation.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #544 on: September 22, 2014, 02:08:24 pm »
0


As I recall, Cutter met Algiers earlier, when he had returned and was setting up the theater.  Algiers even called upon Cutter for help from his contacts (one of whom to which he demonstrated the trick).  The comment about not wanting Cutter backstage is not made until the night of the performance where Borden was caught.

I should rewatch the movie too, but I'm 98% sure that's all one scene. They're setting up the theater and Angiers immediately tells Cutter that he doesn't want him backstage this time.

Finally, all those dead Algiers at the end.  I have two possible explanations right now, and I think there could be others.  One is that the bodies are fakes, maybe wax doubles, placed in the theatre by Cutter as admonishment for the murder of Root.  Heck, one of them might have been Root himself.  "Look at what you've done, Algiers!"

The second possibility is that they are fakes brought them by Algiers himself.  Algiers was at the theatre to destroy the machine to get rid of evidence -- specifically, the evidence that the machine was nothing more than a sparkly prop. Algiers was so committed to the clone deception that he not only had blind men moving water tanks, he even put fake doubles of himself in those tanks in case Borden went so far as to sneak a peek.  Now that his scheme was complete, all the fake bodies were brought back so that he could dispose of everything cleanly.


So, according to your theory, either Cutter or Angiers himself filled dozens of water tanks with wax duplicates of Angiers. First of all, that's way out of character for Cutter. His whole "revenge is a young man's game" seemed pretty heartfelt to me. And unlike Angiers, he almost certainly doesn't have the financial means to buy that many water tanks, let alone wax copies of Angiers to fill them all.

So that leaves the possibility that those duplicates were put there by Angiers just in case Borden happened to sneak a peek into that room. Why? "So committed to the deception" doesn't cut it. Angiers only needed Borden backstage near the actual water tank in order to have him arrested. In fact, a crazy distractionólike say easy access to a room filled with dead bodiesówould tip Borden off or at least keep him from being where Angiers needed him to be. And if Borden was Angiers's intended audience, he certainly didn't need the tanks and duplicates after Borden was arrested and hanged. So tell me again why there was a room full of water tanks and duplicates of Angiers.
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #545 on: September 22, 2014, 02:14:32 pm »
0

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140922/log.512f4c81e4b08cb66ebe711c.1411408592556.txt

random game report. I opened silver/masquerade, and for some reason I hit  5$ seven times during turns 3-8 with that opening. i kept thinking OH MY GOD I CAN'T BUY SILVER WITH 5$ WHAT DO I DO and OH MY GOD I WILL LOSE BECAUSE I DONT BUY ANY ECONOMY AND WILL NEVER GET GRAND MARKETS and OH MY GOD I HAVE SO MUCH LUCK AND DONT MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF IT. it was nerv wrecking, and it took nine turns until i could finally buy a second silver. dominion is really stressful sometimes...
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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #546 on: September 22, 2014, 02:19:35 pm »
+3

Some good points, but this has nothing to the Prestige, so there's nothing to see here.

Although in writing that, it occurs to me how easy it is to accidentally type [/soiler] which would hilariously fail to close the spoiler tag. And why isn't there a soiler tag? I demand satisfaction!

But what everybody has failed to mention is how much I love peanut butter. Man, that is some good food. I like peanut butter flavors too. Delicious!

You could disagree with me, but you'd be wrong.
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Eevee

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #547 on: September 22, 2014, 02:22:04 pm »
0

Peanut butter must be the most american thing ever. I don't think I've ever seen peanut butter, let alone tasted it, and quite frankly the whole idea sounds thoroughly unappealing to me.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #548 on: September 22, 2014, 02:25:32 pm »
0

Peanut butter must be the most american thing ever. I don't think I've ever seen peanut butter, let alone tasted it, and quite frankly the whole idea sounds thoroughly unappealing to me.

Nutella is tastier at first, but it didn't take me long to get tired of it. Peanut butter is forever.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #549 on: September 22, 2014, 02:32:04 pm »
+4

Peanut butter must be the most american thing ever. I don't think I've ever seen peanut butter, let alone tasted it, and quite frankly the whole idea sounds thoroughly unappealing to me.

Congratulations on being wrong.
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