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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part II  (Read 1218080 times)

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Titandrake

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #500 on: September 18, 2014, 10:55:10 pm »
0

I have a script that pings/scrapes info from a website every hour. I was just about to freak out about it, since I got an email notification that goes off when something goes wrong with getting the data...and then it turns out the site was down and it wasn't my fault.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #501 on: September 19, 2014, 02:24:30 pm »
0

Anyone follow Imgur and see the "Danquan" stuff?

Part 1
Part 2
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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #502 on: September 19, 2014, 02:42:42 pm »
+2

I'm not sure if I'm good or just plain lucky when I manage to type this in without any errors:
=IF(AND($L3=-1, IF(AND(OR(WEEKDAY(NOW()) = 5, WEEKDAY(NOW()) = 6), $C3<NOW()+4), TRUE, IF($C3<NOW()+2, TRUE, FALSE))), 1, 0)

Now if only I could be that good with my more complex Excel formulas. *shakes tiny fist*
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sudgy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #503 on: September 19, 2014, 03:28:13 pm »
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I'm not sure if I'm good or just plain lucky when I manage to type this in without any errors:
=IF(AND($L3=-1, IF(AND(OR(WEEKDAY(NOW()) = 5, WEEKDAY(NOW()) = 6), $C3<NOW()+4), TRUE, IF($C3<NOW()+2, TRUE, FALSE))), 1, 0)

Now if only I could be that good with my more complex Excel formulas. *shakes tiny fist*

I can't even tell what that is for...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

theory

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #504 on: September 19, 2014, 03:38:14 pm »
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If L3 is -1, and one of the following two things is true, then return 1, otherwise return 0

It's Thursday or Friday AND C3 is less than 4 days after from today
OR
C3 is less than 2 days after from today

I don't really get that second part though.  So you're trying to capture all situations where C3 is less than 2 days away from today, but you're also interested in situations where C3 is a Monday/Tuesday when it's currently Thursday or Friday?
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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #505 on: September 19, 2014, 04:19:23 pm »
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Correct. The intent is to see if a task is past due. The task should be done prior to 2 business days before the date in C. If the task is done, then the value in L will not be -1. If the date is more than 2 days, then it doesn't matter if L is -1 because the task isn't due yet.

Hmm, I forgot there's a WORKDAY function. I bet I could have used that. It'd also handle those pesky holidays it seems, but that means maintaining the holidays every year. Not sure if it's worth redoing now at this point, but I may do it just because I like keeping things neat.
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theory

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #506 on: September 19, 2014, 05:01:14 pm »
0

Yeah that sounds like it'd be a lot easier to be honest.  IF($C3<WORKDAY(NOW(),2), etc.  Would certainly be easier to maintain.  And I imagine there are "libraries" of pre-generated holidays.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #507 on: September 20, 2014, 03:11:59 am »
0

Recently watched The Prestige.  Question for those who also watched it (and if you haven't, this really is a big spoiler, though I'll try to be ambiguous about it).

Do you think that the final solution to the trick really was just the sci-fi explanation as given?  I'm leaning towards the alternative, that this is just a trick on us, the real life audience of the film, and that the solution is that Angier managed to find and wrangle his previous body double before committing that final act of revenge.  All the sci-fi business was just Algier's story to reel in Borden.

Edit: The more I read online, the more I see that most people want to believe in the sci-fi solution, and the more I am convinced that it isn't.  I am finding it incredibly frustrating.  I think I will have to watch it again and write up my own interpretation, trying to address all the criticisms of the "machine did not work" theory.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:14:53 am by eHalcyon »
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Titandrake

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #508 on: September 20, 2014, 05:32:02 am »
+1

Recently watched The Prestige.  Question for those who also watched it (and if you haven't, this really is a big spoiler, though I'll try to be ambiguous about it).

Do you think that the final solution to the trick really was just the sci-fi explanation as given?  I'm leaning towards the alternative, that this is just a trick on us, the real life audience of the film, and that the solution is that Angier managed to find and wrangle his previous body double before committing that final act of revenge.  All the sci-fi business was just Algier's story to reel in Borden.

Edit: The more I read online, the more I see that most people want to believe in the sci-fi solution, and the more I am convinced that it isn't.  I am finding it incredibly frustrating.  I think I will have to watch it again and write up my own interpretation, trying to address all the criticisms of the "machine did not work" theory.

I've only seen the Prestige in passing, but isn't there a scene at the end lots of hats everywhere, maybe with 2 identical cats? I dislike the argument that these are all details that suggest the sci-fi solution, and are in the movie only for throwing people off.

Also, Borden manages to recognize the body double from last time, and the non-sci-fi solution means Algier let the body double drown for his revenge, and although the cloning explanation also involves that, it's a bit more likely for him to decide that he's taking the risk of dying every time for the sake of revenge than to kill some other guy for revenge.
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pacovf

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #509 on: September 20, 2014, 12:49:47 pm »
0

Recently watched The Prestige.  Question for those who also watched it (and if you haven't, this really is a big spoiler, though I'll try to be ambiguous about it).

Do you think that the final solution to the trick really was just the sci-fi explanation as given?  I'm leaning towards the alternative, that this is just a trick on us, the real life audience of the film, and that the solution is that Angier managed to find and wrangle his previous body double before committing that final act of revenge.  All the sci-fi business was just Algier's story to reel in Borden.

Edit: The more I read online, the more I see that most people want to believe in the sci-fi solution, and the more I am convinced that it isn't.  I am finding it incredibly frustrating.  I think I will have to watch it again and write up my own interpretation, trying to address all the criticisms of the "machine did not work" theory.

I've only seen the Prestige in passing, but isn't there a scene at the end lots of hats everywhere, maybe with 2 identical cats? I dislike the argument that these are all details that suggest the sci-fi solution, and are in the movie only for throwing people off.

Also, Borden manages to recognize the body double from last time, and the non-sci-fi solution means Algier let the body double drown for his revenge, and although the cloning explanation also involves that, it's a bit more likely for him to decide that he's taking the risk of dying every time for the sake of revenge than to kill some other guy for revenge.


Funny, I've been talking about something related with people that had also watched Trascendence (spoilers for The Prestige, not really for Transcendence, unless you haven't watched the trailer).

Do any of you think that Algier's clones were himself? Or somebody else with identical memories?
Do you think that the computer version of Johnny Depp (in Trascendence) was Johnny Depp, or something else entirely?
Would your consider that they are the same only in the very precise instant of their creation? For either of them?


I've been surprised to discover that among my group of friends (physicists, mathematicians, programmers), the answer is yes, they are the same, for any relevant/consistent definition of "being the same".
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #510 on: September 20, 2014, 01:16:00 pm »
+1

Recently watched The Prestige.  Question for those who also watched it (and if you haven't, this really is a big spoiler, though I'll try to be ambiguous about it).

Do you think that the final solution to the trick really was just the sci-fi explanation as given?  I'm leaning towards the alternative, that this is just a trick on us, the real life audience of the film, and that the solution is that Angier managed to find and wrangle his previous body double before committing that final act of revenge.  All the sci-fi business was just Algier's story to reel in Borden.

Edit: The more I read online, the more I see that most people want to believe in the sci-fi solution, and the more I am convinced that it isn't.  I am finding it incredibly frustrating.  I think I will have to watch it again and write up my own interpretation, trying to address all the criticisms of the "machine did not work" theory.

Um, the room where Borden kills Angiers contains dozens of water tanks each containing a dead copy of Algiers.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 01:49:45 pm by LastFootnote »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #511 on: September 20, 2014, 01:30:45 pm »
+2

Yeah, I can't see any ambiguity in how The Prestige played out.  Unless you're going to go metaphorical or something.
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florrat

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #512 on: September 20, 2014, 03:11:12 pm »
0

Recently watched The Prestige.  Question for those who also watched it (and if you haven't, this really is a big spoiler, though I'll try to be ambiguous about it).

Do you think that the final solution to the trick really was just the sci-fi explanation as given?  I'm leaning towards the alternative, that this is just a trick on us, the real life audience of the film, and that the solution is that Angier managed to find and wrangle his previous body double before committing that final act of revenge.  All the sci-fi business was just Algier's story to reel in Borden.

I like your interpretation, never thought of it myself, but I agree with "the internet" here. I think the arguments by LastFootnote and Titandrake are pretty strong against your interpretation.

@pacovf: I'd say they're two different entities who have exactly the same memories in the instant of their creation. After that, they are clearly not the same: they have different thoughts and feelings (which is pretty clearly depicted in Angier's "test run" where he kills his clone).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #513 on: September 20, 2014, 04:29:24 pm »
+2

I'm going to need to rewatch it to take notes, especially of how the characters react to each other and various revelations.  But here is some reasoning based on what I remember from the first viewing:

There are two theories here.  The most popular one is the clone theory.  The machine worked.  Clones were killed.  The other theory, which I favour, is the illusion theory.  The machine never worked.  It was all an elaborate con by Algiers.

First, note that all the stuff about clones is coming from Algiers' diary.  It was a fake diary written as an insult to Borden, the very epitome of the unreliable narrator.  The cats and hats?  Either deception by Tesla or fiction by Algiers.  The scene where Algiers saw his first clone and shot him?  Pure fiction.  Algiers was fooled by Borden and then conned by Tesla, but he turned it around to take down Borden.

Algiers was fully committed to the deception, and the audience was Borden, not the people who came to see his show.  He went as far as having blind men move a water tank away at the end of every show.  This was misdirection from the truth -- that Algiers had brought his double back into the act.  Borden couldn't believe Algiers would do such a thing because of how disastrously it went for Algiers the first time around.  He also knew that Algiers hated having to hide beneath the stage while his double got all the applause.  Borden needed only a small push to get him searching for another answer -- thus the water tanks.

I'll have to watch it again, but I remember Algiers telling Cutter that he didn't want him backstage "this time", for the last performance.  It implied that Cutter had been there before, but this particular performance was special.  It would be the last performance, the one where curiosity got the better of Borden and end with him framed for murder.

On the question of the body double, Root.  There are plenty of reasons why he would agree to work with Algiers again, and reasons why Algiers was willing.  Money is the easy answer.  Another is that Root was not a willing participant when Borden trussed him up and made him a fool.  Root could have been resentful that Borden had manipulated him and caused him to screw up a decent job. 

The first time they worked together, Algiers was resentful that he was not the prestige part of the act.  Root, on the other hand, was unhappy that the others didn't think he was capable of leading the act (Cutter commented that they would be found out as soon as Root opened his mouth).  But we already got a taste of Root's acting ability, and he rattled off a list of past roles he'd played.  I think he very well could have been a capable actor.  Algiers let Root back in for Roots to prove his ability and for Algiers to get his chance to shine in the prestige.  And of course, Algiers had further ambition -- to enact revenge upon both Root and Borden.

Cutter ID'd the body at the morgue, but he was too sad to look too closely.  He realized the truth when he found Algiers alive.  He was disgusted at Algiers then.  He had come to beg the lord to destroy the machine, but he would do so no longer because he realized it was all a fraud.  The machine never worked.

Finally, all those dead Algiers at the end.  I have two possible explanations right now, and I think there could be others.  One is that the bodies are fakes, maybe wax doubles, placed in the theatre by Cutter as admonishment for the murder of Root.  Heck, one of them might have been Root himself.  "Look at what you've done, Algiers!"

The second possibility is that they are fakes brought them by Algiers himself.  Algiers was at the theatre to destroy the machine to get rid of evidence -- specifically, the evidence that the machine was nothing more than a sparkly prop. Algiers was so committed to the clone deception that he not only had blind men moving water tanks, he even put fake doubles of himself in those tanks in case Borden went so far as to sneak a peek.  Now that his scheme was complete, all the fake bodies were brought back so that he could dispose of everything cleanly.

I think all those bodies are actually a point against the clone theory.  Suppose he really had been killing clones every night.  Why in the world would he have them all moved back into the theatre?  Actual human bodies would be far more difficult to dispose of than wax duplicates.  He would have found a way to get rid of them each night.

And finally finally, there is a meta argument.  The closing narration says:

Now you’re looking for the secret…
But you won’t find it…
…because you don’t really want to know…
…you want to be fooled.

We are looking for the trick to the film, but we won't find it because we don't really want to know the truth.  We want to be fooled into believing the solution right in front of us -- that the machine was real all along.  But the secret is that it was just one big con.
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AHoppy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #514 on: September 20, 2014, 04:41:41 pm »
0

RE: The Prestige

Wow.... I didn't even stop to think that the ending could be something other than what they tell you...  Mind blown for today

Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #515 on: September 20, 2014, 05:04:40 pm »
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I guess that argument works.  Interesting.
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pacovf

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #516 on: September 20, 2014, 07:56:29 pm »
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@pacovf: I'd say they're two different entities who have exactly the same memories in the instant of their creation. After that, they are clearly not the same: they have different thoughts and feelings (which is pretty clearly depicted in Angier's "test run" where he kills his clone).

One of my (physicist) friends pointed out that, if you created a perfect copy of a person down to quantum level, for any practical sense of the word "same", the copy and the original are more than indistinguishable, they are the same.  Furthermore, entanglement effects would mean that interacting with one of them would actually have an effect on the other*! So he was of the opinion that a perfect copy would be the same person.

Another argument that he put forward: we can consider that you are the same person you were an infinitesimal amount of time before; yet in that amount of time, you've changed. How can the person who is identical to you not be the same person you are, when he actually ressembles you more than yourself from an infinitesimal amount of time before?


*Because physics. Of course, this effect decreases quickly with time and interactions.

PS: I think discussing philosophy (and ethics) in random stuff is relevant.  :P
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 08:00:27 pm by pacovf »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #517 on: September 20, 2014, 08:04:59 pm »
0

Quantum entanglement may apply, but if you weren't entangled with your clone and if the world were not deterministic,  then the clones would evolve differently.

Plus, even so, you don't occupy the same space.  You turn left to go somewhere and your clone walks off a roof elsewhere.  Things would be quite different.

But.. quantum entanglement doesn't mean the particle just copies another, right?  If you have two entangled photons hurrying off separate directions, and you put a barrier in front of one, their experiences will be different.

I'm not a physicist, though... I'm sure Peebles will come in and correct things.
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #518 on: September 20, 2014, 08:13:19 pm »
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If two particles are quantumly entangled, it'd only affect the spin of the particles. Movement in space of one particle doesn't affect the other (except normally like if they collide or whatever)
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #519 on: September 20, 2014, 08:27:07 pm »
0

If two particles are quantumly entangled, it'd only affect the spin of the particles. Movement in space of one particle doesn't affect the other (except normally like if they collide or whatever)

Right.  So that was my point.  Clones would still be different, because they exist separately in space.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #520 on: September 20, 2014, 09:11:03 pm »
0

eHalcyon, that all just amounts to a conspiracy theory. The movie hints at none of that. This ain't Inception, where the ending is left purposefully ambiguous. You (or someone else) has created this interpretation from whole cloth. If the movie really is trying to tell the story as you describe, it does a tremendously bad job of it.

I could say that the events of Groundhog Day all took place in the unhinged mind of Bill Murray's character. I could easily concoct a whole detailed description of what the events of the movie actually signified was happening in reality. It would all be internally consistent, but that wouldn't matter because the movie is already a work of fiction and that's not the story it's trying to tell.
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #521 on: September 21, 2014, 12:00:50 am »
+1

One of my (physicist) friends pointed out that, if you created a perfect copy of a person down to quantum level, for any practical sense of the word "same", the copy and the original are more than indistinguishable, they are the same.  Furthermore, entanglement effects would mean that interacting with one of them would actually have an effect on the other*! So he was of the opinion that a perfect copy would be the same person.
Objects like people exist only to us, at a high level. To the universe, there is just a pile of stuff that we are drawing a box around. You aren't the same as the copy; there are two piles of stuff with the same pattern. They are, at the very least, located in different places, which is enough to distinguish them. I can see turning over in your mind the idea that all photons are the same photon, since they lack identity, but applying this to patterns of stuff just means throwing out location as meaning anything and well. Ask someone who's horny; location is everything.

I do like Borges though. Well you know. Ficciones.

Quote
Amongst the doctrines of Tlön, none has merited the scandalous reception accorded to materialism. Some thinkers have formulated it with less clarity than fervor, as one might put forth a paradox. In order to facilitate the comprehension of this inconceivable thesis, a heresiarch of the eleventh century (3) devised the sophism of the nine copper coins, whose scandalous renown is in Tlön equivalent to that of the Eleatic paradoxes. There are many versions of this "specious reasoning," which vary the number of coins and the number of discoveries; the following is the most common:

On Tuesday, X crosses a deserted road and loses nine copper coins. On Thursday, Y finds in the road four coins, somewhat rusted by Wednesday's rain. On Friday, Z discovers three coins in the road. On Friday morning, X finds two coins in the corridor of his house. The heresiarch would deduce from this story the reality - i.e., the continuity - of the nine coins which were recovered. It is absurd (he affirmed) to imagine that four of the coins have not existed between Tuesday and Thursday, three between Tuesday and Friday afternoon, two between Tuesday and Friday morning. It is logical to think that they have existed - at least in some secret way, hidden from the comprehension of men - at every moment of those three periods.

The language of Tlön resists the formulation of this paradox; most people did not even understand it. The defenders of common sense at first did no more than negate the veracity of the anecdote. They repeated that it was a verbal fallacy, based on the rash application of two neologisms not authorized by usage and alien to all rigorous thought: the verbs "find" and "lose," which beg the question, because they presuppose the identity of the first and of the last nine coins. They recalled that all nouns (man, coin, Thursday, Wednesday, rain) have only a metaphorical value. They denounced the treacherous circumstance "somewhat rusted by Wednesday's rain," which presupposes what is trying to be demonstrated: the persistence of the four coins from Tuesday to Thursday. They explained that equality is one thing and identity another, and formulated a kind of reductio ad absurdum: the hypothetical case of nine men who on nine nights suffer a severe pain. Would it not be ridiculous - they questioned - to pretend that this pain is one and the same? They said that the heresiarch was prompted only by the blasphemous intention of attributing the divine category of being to some simple coins and that at times he negated plurality and at other times did not. They argued: if equality implies identity, one would also have to admit that the nine coins are one.

Another argument that he put forward: we can consider that you are the same person you were an infinitesimal amount of time before; yet in that amount of time, you've changed. How can the person who is identical to you not be the same person you are, when he actually ressembles you more than yourself from an infinitesimal amount of time before?
This is straightforward. What are "you?" How can we define the concept so that a statement like "I used to live in Florida" (supposing you did) is true? It's not the physical stuff; that's all been replaced. What has been maintained is an illusion of continuity.

You are the illusion of continuity. That continuity is different for you and the copy.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #522 on: September 21, 2014, 12:16:24 am »
+5

It's my birthday and I can post in the Random Stuff thread if I want to.
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #523 on: September 21, 2014, 12:17:03 am »
0

It's my birthday and I can post in the Random Stuff thread if I want to.

Hap birth.
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #524 on: September 21, 2014, 12:17:27 am »
+2

It's my birthday and I can post in the Random Stuff thread if I want to.

You would post in the Random Stuff thread too if it happened to you.
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