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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part II  (Read 1217805 times)

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GeoLib

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #325 on: September 06, 2014, 08:38:07 pm »
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experiments with e have shown that I'm one of the 10% most blacklisted people. for some reason. which is bad. but it explaines some kicks from people who i know don't dislike me. at least that's something.

Hmmm... This makes me less trustful of the blacklist top x% most blacklisted people. I assumed it would just catch the slow-players and people who curse at you for winning.
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Kirian

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #326 on: September 06, 2014, 08:40:54 pm »
+2

experiments with e have shown that I'm one of the 10% most blacklisted people. for some reason. which is bad. but it explaines some kicks from people who i know don't dislike me. at least that's something.

Hmmm... This makes me less trustful of the blacklist top x% most blacklisted people. I assumed it would just catch the slow-players and people who curse at you for winning.

Yeah, I never felt the "most blacklisted" list made for a good idea in the first place.
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sudgy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #327 on: September 06, 2014, 09:50:01 pm »
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experiments with e have shown that I'm one of the 10% most blacklisted people. for some reason. which is bad. but it explaines some kicks from people who i know don't dislike me. at least that's something.

You just maybe talk to AI about it instead of posting it in the random stuff thread...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

GeoLib

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #328 on: September 06, 2014, 10:03:04 pm »
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experiments with e have shown that I'm one of the 10% most blacklisted people. for some reason. which is bad. but it explaines some kicks from people who i know don't dislike me. at least that's something.

You just maybe talk to AI about it instead of posting it in the random stuff thread...

Except it's not necessarily a bug. I would post this in the salvager discussion thread instead though
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sudgy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #329 on: September 06, 2014, 10:03:38 pm »
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experiments with e have shown that I'm one of the 10% most blacklisted people. for some reason. which is bad. but it explaines some kicks from people who i know don't dislike me. at least that's something.

You just maybe talk to AI about it instead of posting it in the random stuff thread...

Except it's not necessarily a bug. I would post this in the salvager discussion thread instead though

Well yeah, that's more what I meant.  I wasn't very clear/didn't quite say the right thing.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #330 on: September 06, 2014, 10:47:23 pm »
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Well, after playing Pathfinder today, I am reminded why Experience Points in RPGs is such a dumb concept. Somehow, bringing more people along means that you learn less.

And when an adventure path assumes that you'll be X level at a certain point, it's hard to be at X level if you have more than four players.

I'm a huge fan of the GM telling you when you level. That way it's appropriate for the story. I like how 13th Age handles levels (though levels are also a horrible way to track an RPG, but it'll do).
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sudgy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #331 on: September 06, 2014, 10:50:24 pm »
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Well, after playing Pathfinder today, I am reminded why Experience Points in RPGs is such a dumb concept. Somehow, bringing more people along means that you learn less.

And when an adventure path assumes that you'll be X level at a certain point, it's hard to be at X level if you have more than four players.

I'm a huge fan of the GM telling you when you level. That way it's appropriate for the story. I like how 13th Age handles levels (though levels are also a horrible way to track an RPG, but it'll do).

I've never seen any game where the more party members you have, the less experience each party member gets.  I've always seen it say you get x experience points and each party member gets x experience.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #332 on: September 06, 2014, 10:54:16 pm »
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Well, after playing Pathfinder today, I am reminded why Experience Points in RPGs is such a dumb concept. Somehow, bringing more people along means that you learn less.

And when an adventure path assumes that you'll be X level at a certain point, it's hard to be at X level if you have more than four players.

I'm a huge fan of the GM telling you when you level. That way it's appropriate for the story. I like how 13th Age handles levels (though levels are also a horrible way to track an RPG, but it'll do).

I've never seen any game where the more party members you have, the less experience each party member gets.  I've always seen it say you get x experience points and each party member gets x experience.

D&D 3E and on up have been about, "You get X XP, so each party member receives X/N XP." This is also popular in video games where the larger your party, the smaller the individual awards.

But it's not as bad as the original Wasteland (and probably original Bard's Tale, though I don't remember that very well) where you get XP based on how much damage you did to the baddie, thus making it hard to level support characters, like healers.
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Kirian

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #333 on: September 06, 2014, 11:38:01 pm »
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You have a combo problem:  If you have more than 4 players, the GM is supposed to scale up the encounters so they're worth more XP.  They'll also be harder, but hey, you have six adventurers, what could go wrong, right?

That way, when you get to the end of the adventure path, you're where you're supposed to be.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #334 on: September 06, 2014, 11:58:05 pm »
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I've never seen any game where the more party members you have, the less experience each party member gets.  I've always seen it say you get x experience points and each party member gets x experience.

I assume you're talking about video games. Most games just pre-divide it for you, then tell you how much each character gets. Test it right now. Turn on an RPG where the number of characters in your party varies over the course of the game (e.g. Final Fantasy IV). Fight an encounter and note how much XP you got. Then gain or lose a party member and fight the same encounter.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #335 on: September 07, 2014, 12:01:56 am »
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You have a combo problem:  If you have more than 4 players, the GM is supposed to scale up the encounters so they're worth more XP.  They'll also be harder, but hey, you have six adventurers, what could go wrong, right?

That way, when you get to the end of the adventure path, you're where you're supposed to be.

In theory, this should balance itself out without that change. Each character gets less XP and so your party is slightly behind in levels. But that should be balanced by the fact that there are more of you. Again, this is the theory. Does not always work in practice and it certainly breaks down as the number of PCs gets ridiculous (like 10).

In general, you shouldn't have to make changes for a party of 5. With a party of 6, I could see adjustments being necessary.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #336 on: September 07, 2014, 12:08:36 am »
+2

Well, after playing Pathfinder today, I am reminded why Experience Points in RPGs is such a dumb concept. Somehow, bringing more people along means that you learn less.

And when an adventure path assumes that you'll be X level at a certain point, it's hard to be at X level if you have more than four players.

I'm a huge fan of the GM telling you when you level. That way it's appropriate for the story. I like how 13th Age handles levels (though levels are also a horrible way to track an RPG, but it'll do).

There is some thematic justification for it.  Experience points are an abstract measurement of a player becoming more skilled through practice.  If you have lots of people helping to do the same task, you get less practice over all.  Suppose the task is "chopping wood" and there is a set amount of wood to chop.  If you are going it alone, you chop a lot of wood and reap a lot of experience.  If you have somebody helping you chop the wood, you both chop half the amount, get half the practice and receive half the XP.
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sudgy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #337 on: September 07, 2014, 12:09:51 am »
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I've never seen any game where the more party members you have, the less experience each party member gets.  I've always seen it say you get x experience points and each party member gets x experience.

I assume you're talking about video games. Most games just pre-divide it for you, then tell you how much each character gets. Test it right now. Turn on an RPG where the number of characters in your party varies over the course of the game (e.g. Final Fantasy IV). Fight an encounter and note how much XP you got. Then gain or lose a party member and fight the same encounter.

I don't have any RPGs at a good place to check, but I did just look in the source code for RPG Maker and it does what I said, not what you said.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Titandrake

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #338 on: September 07, 2014, 12:11:11 am »
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For video game RPGs, I've seen the following systems

1. Everyone gets the same amount of EXP
2. You have an active party of everyone you can bring, and a non-active party of everybody else. Your active party gets the same amount of EXP, no one else gets any.
3. The active party gets the same amount of EXP, the non-active party gets a smaller fraction (like 80%)

In all the above, dead people get no exp, and having dead people doesn't give anyone else more EXP, even though there's fewer people to take it.

In MMORPGs, it's often split based on character level within the party, with higher levels getting more to mitigate people power-leveling lower level players. I think most MMORPGs multiply the EXP based on the number of people in the party before splitting it - that way, although you get less exp per monster, when you add up the contributions from everybody it works out to more exp for everyone.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #339 on: September 07, 2014, 12:30:58 am »
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In games like Shining Force (I and II), characters get experience per action.  And you get more if you kill an enemy, as long as they're within level range (up to a max).  Support characters keep up because they get to use their abilities often enough.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #340 on: September 07, 2014, 12:55:47 am »
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You have a combo problem:  If you have more than 4 players, the GM is supposed to scale up the encounters so they're worth more XP.  They'll also be harder, but hey, you have six adventurers, what could go wrong, right?

That way, when you get to the end of the adventure path, you're where you're supposed to be.

In games like D&D and its clones, there can be a significant change in strength. A group of four level 11s will pretty much outshine a group of five 10s. The 11s will have an additional iterative attack for martial characters and 6th-level spells for spellcasters. That fifth character at 10th won't be as impressive.

There is some thematic justification for it.  Experience points are an abstract measurement of a player becoming more skilled through practice.  If you have lots of people helping to do the same task, you get less practice over all.  Suppose the task is "chopping wood" and there is a set amount of wood to chop.  If you are going it alone, you chop a lot of wood and reap a lot of experience.  If you have somebody helping you chop the wood, you both chop half the amount, get half the practice and receive half the XP.

I see what you're getting at, but it quantifies experience and makes it clunky. Doing half the work of chopping wood would not make you half as experienced. You learn a lot from watching the others.

But then again I've always scowled at the notion of merit-based XP. I believe it was "Over the Edge" that suggested giving more XP when the characters fail because they learned more. It's not something I'd do all the time, but there's better justification of that.

The most fun I had in a D&D game was where the GM took the suggestion to level the party when it made good story sense. There was no worrying about tracking XP. And there wasn't any of that nonsense of, "I know we beat the main villain, but we should explore every nook and cranny so we can get more XP."
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #341 on: September 07, 2014, 01:14:41 am »
+2

And there wasn't any of that nonsense of, "I know we beat the main villain, but we should explore every nook and cranny so we can get more XP."

Rather, you do it to find every possible bit of loot. ;)
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Awaclus

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #342 on: September 07, 2014, 01:36:04 am »
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For TTRPGs, I have mostly just played RuneQuest. The "level-upping" in RQ works so that you have a % of success for each skill, and you try to roll below the number with 1d100, and if you succeed, you check a box and once per in-game week, all %s with their boxes checked increase and the checks are erased. For skills that are already over 50%, you need a special or a critical success. In my playgroup, the GM usually makes it smoother so that a 40% skill doesn't necessarily get checked if you roll 40, and a 60% skill might still get checked if you roll, say, 17. It isn't super realistic, but it makes the characters better over time and keeps the focus on the story rather than grinding for XP.
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Kirian

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #343 on: September 07, 2014, 02:17:56 am »
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You have a combo problem:  If you have more than 4 players, the GM is supposed to scale up the encounters so they're worth more XP.  They'll also be harder, but hey, you have six adventurers, what could go wrong, right?

That way, when you get to the end of the adventure path, you're where you're supposed to be.

In games like D&D and its clones, there can be a significant change in strength. A group of four level 11s will pretty much outshine a group of five 10s. The 11s will have an additional iterative attack for martial characters and 6th-level spells for spellcasters. That fifth character at 10th won't be as impressive.

Exactly.  That's why the DM has to level up the encounters.

Quote
The most fun I had in a D&D game was where the GM took the suggestion to level the party when it made good story sense. There was no worrying about tracking XP. And there wasn't any of that nonsense of, "I know we beat the main villain, but we should explore every nook and cranny so we can get more XP."

I agree.  This is what I did toward the end of the campaign I ran many years ago under 3/3.5.  "You guys just defeated the guy you thought was the big bad, but he turned out to be possessed by the goddess of Destruction, and she just used him to destroy herself.  Oh, that second, red sun you guys have dealt with the whole campaign?  Yeah, that's her embodiment, and she just went all supernova.  Sooooo.  Yeeeeah, you guys should probably level before trying to take care of that."

(It was a weird campaign.  Homebrew world, planets and stars as literal embodiments of the gods, ridiculously powerful magical artifacts that end up inherited by a feisty teenage girl, time travel.  You know, all the usual stuff.)
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #344 on: September 07, 2014, 02:38:15 am »
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So that last bundle of posts just felt like an airshow buzzing around my head. Nothing ever landed though.
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #345 on: September 07, 2014, 07:28:04 am »
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experiments with e have shown that I'm one of the 10% most blacklisted people. for some reason. which is bad. but it explaines some kicks from people who i know don't dislike me. at least that's something.

You just maybe talk to AI about it instead of posting it in the random stuff thread...

what for, if i'm in the top 10%, then I'm in the top 10%. the option is there to not play with people that are in the top 10%, so it does what it's for. there is nothing broken with it, there is nothing to fix.

Lekkit

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #346 on: September 07, 2014, 09:22:03 am »
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Am I the only one who plays TTRPGS wihtout levels?
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Awaclus

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #347 on: September 07, 2014, 09:31:42 am »
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Am I the only one who plays TTRPGS wihtout levels?
I guess you could say that the BRP based games don't have levels, though they still have the concept there, it's just more direct.
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Lekkit

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #348 on: September 07, 2014, 09:38:03 am »
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Well, you get better at stuff you're doing. It feels more thematic to me. Not where you whack a goblin and learn how to swim or produce a fireball.

I mean, most games have some sort of experience points. Games that haven't tend to feel flat and you hardly ever want to play more than a couple of sessions.

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #349 on: September 07, 2014, 10:28:30 am »
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I've played a number of FATE games where we never leveled. Probably some of the most fun I've had with tabletop. If you've never played FATE i strongly recommend it. You could play with experience and leveling, but overall the system feels more narrative focused and the gameplay is a it more flexible and inventive.
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