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[Flip5ide]

Can you gain 2 victory cards? Does the lose track rule have anything to do with this situation (I'm not much for abstraction).

[GeoLib]

Short answer: Yes. Sort of, but not really.

Longer answer: This is similar to TR-Feast. The HoP gain is not conditional on trashing; trashing is simply a result of gaining a victory card. You play Counterfeit, play HoP, choose to gain a victory card, trash HoP, play the HoP again (Counterfeit does not need to know where the HoP is in order to play it). You can now choose to gain a victory card again. Note though that the HoP is not in play anymore, so assuming you don't have any other HoPs in play, the price limit on the card you can gain is one less. If you choose a victory card again, HoP attempts to trash itself again, but has lost track of itself, so it cannot (this makes no difference in practice since the HoP is already in the trash and there are no effects conditional on it being trashed). Now Counterfeit trashes HoP. Again it's lost track so nothing actually happens, and again that makes no difference.

[soulnet]

(this makes no difference in practice since the HoP is already in the trash and there are no effects conditional on it being trashed)

Well, it does not open a new window for discarding Market Square. Only the real trashing (the first play of HoP that causes a Victory card gain) does. I think it does not matter for practical purposes anyway.

[GeoLib]

(this makes no difference in practice since the HoP is already in the trash and there are no effects conditional on it being trashed)

Well, it does not open a new window for discarding Market Square. Only the real trashing (the first play of HoP that causes a Victory card gain) does. I think it does not matter for practical purposes anyway.

Damn. I was foolish enough to think there was no edge case there. How silly of me.

[GendoIkari]

(this makes no difference in practice since the HoP is already in the trash and there are no effects conditional on it being trashed)

Well, it does not open a new window for discarding Market Square. Only the real trashing (the first play of HoP that causes a Victory card gain) does. I think it does not matter for practical purposes anyway.

Damn. I was foolish enough to think there was no edge case there. How silly of me.

I don't think there is a real edge case. There is never a reason that it matters if you are discarding Market Square to the first trash, or the second (if you could discard it to the second). So even if there were a second trash, no play decisions could ever be different because of it.

[florrat]

I don't think there is a real edge case. There is never a reason that it matters if you are discarding Market Square to the first trash, or the second (if you could discard it to the second). So even if there were a second trash, no play decisions could ever be different because of it.

There's indeed no real edge case with HoP-counterfeit (not even when your second gain is a Cultist which you trash with Watchtower to draw Market Square, because then you can still reveal your Market Square to the trashing of the Cultist).
However, there are edge cases where the following ruling is important: "you cannot discard Market Square when you are ordered to trash a card which is already in the trash"

Consider for example Processioning a Mining Village:
Play Procession
- Play Mining Village, draw card, trash Mining Village
- Play Mining Village again, draw Market Square
When you then upgrade your Mining Village to a $5-cost card, you cannot reveal Market Square.

[eHalcyon]

I don't think there is a real edge case. There is never a reason that it matters if you are discarding Market Square to the first trash, or the second (if you could discard it to the second). So even if there were a second trash, no play decisions could ever be different because of it.

There's indeed no real edge case with HoP-counterfeit (not even when your second gain is a Cultist which you trash with Watchtower to draw Market Square, because then you can still reveal your Market Square to the trashing of the Cultist).
However, there are edge cases where the following ruling is important: "you cannot discard Market Square when you are ordered to trash a card which is already in the trash"

Consider for example Processioning a Mining Village:
Play Procession
- Play Mining Village, draw card, trash Mining Village
- Play Mining Village again, draw Market Square
When you then upgrade your Mining Village to a $5-cost card, you cannot reveal Market Square.

But in this case, is there any reason you would ever choose to trash the MV for $2 on its first play?  You can only get it once, so why wouldn't you wait to trash it on the second play?  Hmmm...

OK, here we go:

The first play of MV draws the last card of the deck, so the second play will cause a reshuffle.  You have at least one Market Square in hand and you don't want the Gold you'd gain to miss the reshuffle.

[Wolphmaniac]

Here's an interesting case of HoP/Counterfeit.  I can only imagine the arguments that would have happened if this game were in real life.  Friends would be lost!

He plays exactly eight different cards, including the Counterfeited HoP. On the first HoP play, he can gain a Province because HoP is in play.  But gaining the Province trashes the HoP.  Counterfeit then plays the HoP again (even though the HoP is in the trash), but now there are only seven different cards in play because the HoP is in the trash, so he can only gain a card costing up to $7.  He then plays another HoP (not Counterfeited) and now he can gain a Province again because the second HoP is in play and he's back up to eight different cards in play.

An interesting subtlety here is that Counterfeit trashes a treasure after the treasure has been played twice.  So say he plays this exact same turn and Prince ($8-Action) is available.  He can use the Counterfeited HoP to gain Prince on the first HoP play and Province on the second HoP play, but if he gains Province on the first HoP play then he could not gain Prince on the second HoP play because gaining the Province trashes the HoP immediately and then there are only seven different cards in play.     

Joey Mann: turn 14
Joey Mann   duration Lighthouse
Joey Mann   plays Cartographer
Joey Mann   draws Silver
Joey Mann   looks at Gold, Peddler, Chapel, Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   discards Chapel
Joey Mann   discards Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   discards Gold
Joey Mann   places Peddler on top of deck
Joey Mann   plays Peddler
Joey Mann   draws Peddler
Joey Mann   plays Peddler
Joey Mann   draws Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   plays Lighthouse
Joey Mann   plays Peddler
Joey Mann   draws Counterfeit
Joey Mann   plays Peddler
Joey Mann   draws Hunting Grounds
Joey Mann   plays Hunting Grounds
Joey Mann   shuffles deck
Joey Mann   draws Gold, Chapel, Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   plays 1 Silver, 1 Gold
Joey Mann   plays Counterfeit
Joey Mann   plays Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   gains Province
Joey Mann   trashes Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   plays Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   gains Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   trashes Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   plays Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   gains Province
Joey Mann   trashes Horn of Plenty
Joey Mann   buys Province
Joey Mann   gains Province
Joey Mann   shuffles deck
Joey Mann   draws Cartographer, Lighthouse, Province, Gold, Peddler

[eHalcyon]

If you just follow the rules as written on Horn of Plenty and you understand that a card can be played without being in play (e.g. King's Court+Mining Village), there should be no confusion.

[scott_pilgrim]

I don't think there is a real edge case.

I feel like any time this is said, the thread should automatically be moved to the Puzzles board.

[amalloy]

I don't think there is a real edge case.

I feel like any time this is said, the thread should automatically be moved to the Puzzles board.

If I were allowed to use on-trash benefits for the second victory card gain, I might choose whether to do so based on whether my opponent uses his Fool's Gold reaction. He can't necessarily afford to wait till the second Province, since I might gain Province+Duchy for whatever tactical reasons. So maybe I want to gain a Gold from my Market Square iff my opponent trades his FG in for a Gold; in that case, I put off the decision until after gaining my second Province.

But because that's not the way the cards actually work, I have to decide before he does, so it does matter a little bit that the HoP is only trashed once.

Edit: Alternatively, another edge case. I want to gain Province/Province/Gold, and topdeck them all with Watchtower, and for some reason (schemed Vagrant?) it's important that the Gold is topmost among them. Then I can't afford to reveal Market Square to the first Province gain, or else the second Province would end up on top of it. Again, with the real rules I have no choice, and the Province has to go on top; if I could wait to reveal my Market Square until I gained the second Province, I could reach this hypothetical goal.

[Flip5ide]

I don't think there is a real edge case.

I feel like any time this is said, the thread should automatically be moved to the Puzzles board.

If I were allowed to use on-trash benefits for the second victory card gain, I might choose whether to do so based on whether my opponent uses his Fool's Gold reaction. He can't necessarily afford to wait till the second Province, since I might gain Province+Duchy for whatever tactical reasons. So maybe I want to gain a Gold from my Market Square iff my opponent trades his FG in for a Gold; in that case, I put off the decision until after gaining my second Province.

But because that's not the way the cards actually work, I have to decide before he does, so it does matter a little bit that the HoP is only trashed once.

Edit: Alternatively, another edge case. I want to gain Province/Province/Gold, and topdeck them all with Watchtower, and for some reason (schemed Vagrant?) it's important that the Gold is topmost among them. Then I can't afford to reveal Market Square to the first Province gain, or else the second Province would end up on top of it. Again, with the real rules I have no choice, and the Province has to go on top; if I could wait to reveal my Market Square until I gained the second Province, I could reach this hypothetical goal.

Schemed Vagrant wouldn't really apply unless you are playing an action after your treasures, on the same turn. Unless you are using Black Market or something. But topdecking two Harems on the other hand...

[Asper]

(this makes no difference in practice since the HoP is already in the trash and there are no effects conditional on it being trashed)

Well, it does not open a new window for discarding Market Square. Only the real trashing (the first play of HoP that causes a Victory card gain) does. I think it does not matter for practical purposes anyway.

Damn. I was foolish enough to think there was no edge case there. How silly of me.

I don't think there is a real edge case. There is never a reason that it matters if you are discarding Market Square to the first trash, or the second (if you could discard it to the second). So even if there were a second trash, no play decisions could ever be different because of it.

It does if you want to topdeck the cards you gained with Watchtower, and the order you want them in is Victory card lowest, the other gain inbetween and the Gold on top.

[jaketheyak]

Here's an interesting case of HoP/Counterfeit.  I can only imagine the arguments that would have happened if this game were in real life.  Friends would be lost!

Only if you're a dick about it.
If someone did this in a real life game, I would allow them to "redo" it in the correct order (if they realise their mistake, of course, I'm not going to point out optimal play to my opponent).

A more common example is Bank.
In real life play, players tend to just lay out their treasure cards on the table at the end of their turn.
Are you really going to be the guy that insists that because Bank hit the table first that it's worth 1?

When playing in real life we have the ability to cut each other a bit of slack.
I recommend you do so, or you will find yourself losing friends!

[AdamH]

If only this was IRL I'd let you take that back