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Author Topic: Rage against the AI  (Read 9792 times)

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Venescas

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Rage against the AI
« on: August 13, 2014, 02:43:14 am »
+1

After 1000+ games against the AI and after some seemingly improbable losses, I feel like I need to post this to keep my sanity. This is just a general list of things that have irked me when playing against the AI. You won't find any in-depth strategy analysis here; this is just me blowing off steam. I do not recommend emulating the things I'm about to post. I also do not recommend taking anything I'm about to say seriously.

Lessons learned while playing against the AI:

Envoy+BM beats engines every time.
Envoy+BM beats junking every time.
Envoy+BM beats discarding attacks every time.
Envoy+BM beats IGG every time.
Journeyman+BM beats engines every time.
Journeyman+BM beats junking every time.
Journeyman+BM beats discarding attacks every time.
Journeyman+BM beats IGG every time.
You don't know how to play Advisor. Only the AI knows how to play Advisor.
Ditto for Procession.
Watchtower+BM beats IGG.
Rabble engines do not slow down the AI.
The AI will always get the first Province in Tournament games.
The AI will always get the first King's Court.
Philosopher's Stone is worth the opportunity cost of Potion 9 times out of 10.
Jack+BM beats Wharf+BM every time.
Jack+BM beats Wharf engine every time.
In fact, Jack+BM just beats everything.
Ditto for Envoy+BM.
Y'know what? Ditto for Journeyman+BM too.
AI's set aside Estates with their first Island, but you will draw Island+4 coppers, and not before the second shuffle either.
You always lose the Familiar race against the AI.
AI has perfect Swindler luck. You will always have terrible Swindler luck.
AI will always negate junking attacks with one copy of Trader/Watchtower.
Watchtower/Plaza is a nombo.
Library/Plaza is a nombo.
Y'know what? Plaza+anything's a nombo.
Forge is a waste of time.
Minion+BM is immune to junking.
Soothsayer is a bad card since Curses don't slow down the AI.
Rats is a terrible card (ok, I know most of you are with me on that one. Sorry, Donald...).
Ambassador falls to BM every time. I mean, you're giving the AI extra points and cash! What were you thinking?!?
Vault+BM beats everything.
Library+BM beats everything.
Don't slog against the AI: you will lose.
Don't Duchy-dance against the AI: you will lose.
You always lose the curse split in Young Witch games.
You always lose the ruins split in Marauder games.
Marauder+BM beats everything...unless you're the one playing it.
Cultist+BM loses against most everything, especially if you're the one playing it.
The AI has perfect Possession luck.
The AI has perfect Remake luck.
The AI has perfect Loan luck.
The AI has perfect Menagerie luck.
The AI has perfect Chapel luck.
The AI has perfect luck in general. Dirty rotten cheater...
It's never too early to green, even if the first green card is a Duchy on a non-Duke board.
It's never too early to get extra Estates.
Extra +buys should be spent on Copper at all times.
Potion+Silver is the correct opening. Even if Golem or Possession is the only Potion card on the board.
BM in general just beats everything.



Jeez, you read all that? Even I didn't take half that list seriously when I looked back over it. Well, I hope it was amusing at least. And I hope you can relate to my pain whenever I lose against a computer. Feel free to share your thoughts and stories about your AI luck, or your luck in Goko in general.
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yed

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2014, 05:19:08 am »
0

Which bot are you talking about?

Serf Bot buys random cards.
All others except Lord Botington are crippled by default.
Lord Botington should be the best bot by design (not crippled).
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Awaclus

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2014, 05:41:58 am »
0

Which bot are you talking about?

Serf Bot buys random cards.
All others except Lord Botington are crippled by default.
Lord Botington should be the best bot by design (not crippled).
You mean, it's not crippled intentionally.
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yed

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2014, 06:18:00 am »
0

Which bot are you talking about?

Serf Bot buys random cards.
All others except Lord Botington are crippled by default.
Lord Botington should be the best bot by design (not crippled).
You mean, it's not crippled intentionally.
Yes ;)
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matste

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2014, 07:30:26 am »
0

Ambassador falls to BM every time. I mean, you're giving the AI extra points and cash! What were you thinking?!?
Troll harder or suck less. Goko AI has no hidden cheating mechanism. The explanation of your bad luck is that most people are really bad in judging series of random events and quick games with AI just instensify that effect.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2014, 07:46:28 am »
0

Ambassador falls to BM every time. I mean, you're giving the AI extra points and cash! What were you thinking?!?
Troll harder or suck less. Goko AI has no hidden cheating mechanism.
I don't think that was the point.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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DG

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 09:19:54 am »
+14

You have no right to rage against the AI luck until you're playing three player, one bot plays a swindler and trashes the other bots peddler into the last province then trashes your province for nothing, and you lose by a point or two. It has happened ....


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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2014, 09:32:31 am »
+5

LMFAO - That is hilarious.  It's like they were your friends and collectively decided you couldn't win.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140519/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1400549736748.txt#3-25
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KingZog3

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 10:23:21 am »
0

Envoy BM does beat tons of engines though. That's also a thing. Procession actually is hard to play. Jack BM also beats tons of engines. Soothsayer is actually not a super powerful card. Yes curses slow them down, but you don't actually play Soothsayer that often because the golds fatten your deck up, and also you give them a 6 card turn.
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SCSN

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 10:24:02 am »
+3

Learn to play.
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KingZog3

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2014, 10:46:00 am »
0

I can only find 1 log where you actually played a game without quitting turn 1. It was a base game, where you went Chapel-Lab-BM and Serf bot went essentially just BM. Chapel in BM is not that great. If you can only buy 1 card per turn (or attack and stuff), there isn't much point to spending to trash and regain your economy. You're better off just buying labs and money. Were these 1000+ games in adventure mode? because then they are meaningless. Adventure mode is not a test of skill. If not I can't find a record of them.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2014, 12:00:27 pm »
0

Adventure mode is not a test of skill.
It is a test of skill to some extent until the stages become unbeatable without zapping. The skills required have sometimes little to do with actual Dominion though.
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Venescas

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2014, 12:20:50 pm »
0

Dunno how to find my game logs; not usually very active on the forums anyway.

I went through adventure mode, yes, but recently I've just been playing multiplayer against the AI. I understand I'm not the best dominion player ever, and I also understand that sometimes shuffle luck can determine the winner despite differing strategies.

Some of those items on that list I just made out of spite. However, I was quite surprised to see that Jack+BM > Wharf engine. Had to make my own deck and played against the bot 4 times and each time, the bot went Jack+BM. Only won once; took too long to get to the point where the engine could buy 2 Provinces reliably, and by that point, Jack had gotten 5 provinces. That was certainly an eye-opener.

Anyway, again, don't take that list too seriously. Even I don't really believe what I wrote last night (no, I don't drink, so I can't attribute it to that...).
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Awaclus

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2014, 12:28:42 pm »
0

Dunno how to find my game logs; not usually very active on the forums anyway.

I went through adventure mode, yes, but recently I've just been playing multiplayer against the AI. I understand I'm not the best dominion player ever, and I also understand that sometimes shuffle luck can determine the winner despite differing strategies.

Some of those items on that list I just made out of spite. However, I was quite surprised to see that Jack+BM > Wharf engine. Had to make my own deck and played against the bot 4 times and each time, the bot went Jack+BM. Only won once; took too long to get to the point where the engine could buy 2 Provinces reliably, and by that point, Jack had gotten 5 provinces. That was certainly an eye-opener.

Anyway, again, don't take that list too seriously. Even I don't really believe what I wrote last night (no, I don't drink, so I can't attribute it to that...).
You can find the logs here: http://gokosalvager.com/

Engines get a lot weaker in multiplayer games, because there are less engine pieces in the supply per player. Also, "Wharf engine" could be pretty weak or incredibly strong depending on the kingdom: if you're playing Hamlets and Wharves with no trashing and basic Treasures as your payload, it's not going to win anything, but if there's Chapel, Wandering Minstrel, King's Court and Bridge in the kingdom as well, there's no way any big money strategy is going to beat that. Also, you don't always need to buy 2 Provinces every turn in engines.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 12:31:00 pm by Awaclus »
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DG

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2014, 01:00:57 pm »
+2

When you play against the bots you need some humility. Even when you know exactly how the bots will play, and could play every card for them, and could improve their strategy in places, you can still easily lose on draws and turn order. You can turn this to your advantage though and experiment against them, using their standard as a baseline while you experiment with your play. These games can also give you a lot of insight into the damage done when a key card like a chapel misses the shuffle. An opportunity is lost that can sometimes never be fully recovered.

As for jack + treasure vs wharf + treasure, a simulator puts that at about 50-50, and they are both worse than jack+wharf+treasure. Wharf engines can be slower than just wharf + treasure too. The jack is one of the best cards for the bots since it gives them extra leeway when they buy vp at the wrong times and when they ignore attacks.
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Venescas

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2014, 01:33:36 pm »
0

Oh, I've always been playing one on one. Guess I should've clarified that somewhere.

BTW, my name on Goko's my real name. Long story short, I bought the expansions using my real name and I can't change it back to my forum name.

Quote
Engines get a lot weaker in multiplayer games, because there are less engine pieces in the supply per player. Also, "Wharf engine" could be pretty weak or incredibly strong depending on the kingdom: if you're playing Hamlets and Wharves with no trashing and basic Treasures as your payload, it's not going to win anything, but if there's Chapel, Wandering Minstrel, King's Court and Bridge in the kingdom as well, there's no way any big money strategy is going to beat that. Also, you don't always need to buy 2 Provinces every turn in engines.

I have managed to find the logs for the games in question:
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140726/log.508acb02fca2b169e80725c9.1406405207947.txt
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140726/log.508acb02fca2b169e80725c9.1406405752224.txt
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140726/log.508acb02fca2b169e80725c9.1406405989135.txt
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140726/log.508acb02fca2b169e80725c9.1406406255133.txt

The first game sparked my questioning of Jack vs Wharf. I had some unfortunate luck at the beginning, but the quickness of Jack+BM is really displayed here: 4 Provinces by turn 13, and I'm still building. I honestly couldn't tell you why I went double Duchy on turn 17 instead of single Province (and maybe an Estate if I really felt behind, which I was), but at that point, I could do no right.

Second game, I open double silver. My priority was to get to Wharf pronto. With the only village at $4 however, I was stuck buying more Silvers on $3. Prior to my first Farming Village buy on turn 8, I was playing more like a Wharf BM. By the time I was ready to green, Jack had claimed three Provinces. Turn 14 I think I panicked a bit. 9 times out of 10, you go double Province I think. My only shot would've been that he misses Province next turn, and my engine edges ahead at the last second. Turned out he would've had it anyway.

The third game was terrible. I open Trader+Silver against his Jack, hoping to turn my Estates into cash, then transition into a Wharf engine. Turns out extra Silvers prevents your Wharves and Villages from colliding. Who knew?  :P Yeah, Stables was there for stability (heh), but they also helped Jack. Never stood a chance.

The fourth game is where everything fell into place for me. I was alternating Wharf and Farming Village buys when I could, and the AI was considerably slower. On turn 13, Jack had only two Provinces, but my engine had enough power to double Province right back, and again on turn 14 and 15.

Well, I think that was more discussion on Jack vs Wharf than anyone expected to see in this topic. I also have to admit that I win against the AI waaaay more often than I lose, so the occasional losses I do get where I believed I was playing the superior strategy created sour grapes.
 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 01:35:33 pm by Venescas »
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Awaclus

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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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DG

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2014, 04:52:44 pm »
0

In general, a deck full of copper and silver needs some extra drawing to give you 8 coin hands. A wharf or stables can do that for you. Trying to draw through a lot of copper and silver to build an engine is much harder work. If you were wanting to build an engine in a colony game you might try using upgades to trash down, perhaps trashing silver for farming villages, but in a province game the upgrades are likely to do too little too late.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2014, 10:17:36 am »
+1

The upgrades are likely to do too little too late? I'm not as sure. Upgrade still picks up 3 silvers (estates) and can even turn those into villages if necessary. With the draw of the wharf engine, you'll likely be able to play it very frequently. I suspect that a well-run engine would beat Jack-BM here with Upgrade's trashing and gaining potential.

If the engine needs still more silvers, there's nothing to keep the engine player from picking up a Jack of their own.
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Venescas

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2014, 11:38:35 am »
0

Eh, not sure about Jack in a Wharf engine, especially if Upgrade is also for consideration. You wouldn't get Jack after Upgrade, 'cause you've likely Upgraded your Estates already, and with the big hand sizes from Wharf, basically you're just gaining Silver and scouting the top card of the deck. An early Jack into Wharf could have you drawing Wharves dead with Jack, or drawing Jack dead with Wharves. And with extra Silvers in the deck, it's going to be tough to get Villages to line up right. The best village to make such an engine with Jack and Wharf is probably (to no one's surprise) Fishing Village. That's probably the only time I'd ever consider going both Jack and Wharf.   
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lespeutere

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 04:28:49 am »
0

There's nothing wrong with going jack into wharf engine. You don't want to buy treasures (which you did), though, before you got a decent engine running. The more games I played, the more I got convinced it doesn't even matter exactly which 5$ card you buy in which order unless you got 1 upgrade for jack/farming village into duchy.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408350050136.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349766561.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349458785.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349074798.txt
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luser

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2014, 10:28:34 am »
0

There's nothing wrong with going jack into wharf engine. You don't want to buy treasures (which you did), though, before you got a decent engine running. The more games I played, the more I got convinced it doesn't even matter exactly which 5$ card you buy in which order unless you got 1 upgrade for jack/farming village into duchy.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408350050136.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349766561.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349458785.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349074798.txt
These also show bot mistakes like turn 3

Villager Bot   plays Count
Villager Bot   discards Estate
Villager Bot   discards Copper
Villager Bot   trashes Copper, Copper
Villager Bot   draws Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper

and buying gold instead province at turn 7
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lespeutere

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 06:46:07 pm »
0

and buying gold instead province at turn 7

Which log shows that?
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Venescas

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Re: Rage against the AI
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2014, 09:04:08 pm »
0

There's nothing wrong with going jack into wharf engine. You don't want to buy treasures (which you did), though, before you got a decent engine running. The more games I played, the more I got convinced it doesn't even matter exactly which 5$ card you buy in which order unless you got 1 upgrade for jack/farming village into duchy.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408350050136.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349766561.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349458785.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140818/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1408349074798.txt

I know extra Silvers will gum up the engine, but it's hard to not buy one if there's no other engine part to get at that price point. It's quite interesting to see that this doesn't deter you however; several turns, you were content to get nothing on $3. I figured that any wasted turn in developing the engine is huge, especially against big money which usually has no wasted turns until the greening phase. I also like the timing of your greening step; it's consistently around the point where the AI buys the 3rd Province. At that point, I usually panic, dropping everything to get points before they're all gone. Here, you know when to get points and what parts to buy. It's a real eye-opener for me.
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