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ibavly

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Poker
« on: August 09, 2014, 05:03:53 pm »
+1

I see so many people in dominion who can analyze games at such an advanced level and also get so much volume in, I wonder why more of these people don't play poker. I can't come close to competing with the top dominion players but can make 6 figures playing poker. The top 10 guys in dominion, assuming they have a decent BR (or are staked) and have some help with basic stuff that can only be discovered through experience should be able to make 100+/hr within a couple months. Instead they build fancy AIs to increase their dominion WR :)

Why do you think they do this? Are the skills not as transferable as I would think, have they just never really thought about it, is the stigma to great, or are they all crushing real life so hard that they don't care about whether they're making a ton of money from their hobby or not?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Poker
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 05:15:00 pm »
+5

The answer is probably "they're interested in Dominion and not interested in poker".
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Re: Poker
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 05:29:32 pm »
+1

You can't analyze bluffing the way you analyze probabilities.

I am absolutely terrible at bluffing.
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amalloy

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Re: Poker
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 06:10:04 pm »
0

You can't analyze bluffing the way you analyze probabilities.

I am absolutely terrible at bluffing.

Probabilities are a lot more important than bluffing, until you get to a pretty high level; a player with a sound grasp of the probabilities can make a decent living off the bluffing chumps at a casino.
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ibavly

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Re: Poker
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2014, 06:52:01 pm »
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You can't analyze bluffing the way you analyze probabilities.

I am absolutely terrible at bluffing.

You actually can ;) It just requires a little more knowledge of game theory than is needed for dominion
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Poker
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 10:01:47 pm »
+1

As someone who has played a lot of both, Dominion is a great deal more fun. 
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yed

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Re: Poker
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2014, 04:46:44 am »
+1

I am playing poker while watching Dominion live streams :)
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Davio

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Re: Poker
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2014, 07:37:12 am »
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I used to play all the time when it was hot, 7 years ago or so.
Then it slowly died out and I moved on.
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KingZog3

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Re: Poker
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2014, 12:01:11 pm »
+2

You can't analyze bluffing the way you analyze probabilities.

I am absolutely terrible at bluffing.

Here's the deal with bluffing. It's not about simply putting a lot of money in a certain point when you don't have anything good. It's about making it look like you're playing a strong hand when you aren't. this means the cards on the board need to present the possibility of something good. Say if there's 3 Hearts on the table, I can pretend I hit the flush and push people out of the hand. Also, it needs to look like I'm betting the amounts I would normally bet in the situation. If I just bid a huge amount, anyone with a Heart is calling me, but if I bit enough to say "I have the Ace of Hearts," then you get other people to fold. It's not so much about acting (although acting can play a part), but more about knowing how much people normally bit in certain situations. Also, a huge amount of this is based on who you're playing. If you're playing people who aren't good at poker, they don't think much about what my bid means, so if I bluff, they just call me.

Also, unlike the movies, people do not have "tells" and no one ever uses them even if they do. This is because acting easily beats someone look for tells. Simply pausing before you bet can be enough to convince people you don't have anything good, even if you have the best hand on the table.

All that asside, Poker and Dominion aren't really very similar. Poker is about learning who you're playing, and the language of how they are bidding. Dominion is more about strategy, and creating interaction between various mechanics in the game.
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silverspawn

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Re: Poker
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2014, 02:20:33 pm »
+1

I'm really hyped for poker atm. one problem with dominion is that you can't play it for money, and i love playing for money (not much though, just <1$ stuff). i don't think dominion and poker are that different, there's plenty of strategy in poker.

Teproc

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Re: Poker
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 09:17:18 am »
0

i don't think dominion and poker are that different, there's plenty of strategy in poker.

There's also plenty of strategy in bridge. Or in go. Or in football. Or in Europa Universalis. Or in Agricola. Would you say these games are similar to Dominion or to poker just because they have strategy in them ?

I would say MTG is relatively close, especially in drafting or vintage. Vintage has the "executing a combo" aspect, drafting has the "figuring out what to do with what I'm given" aspect.
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Awaclus

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Re: Poker
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 09:39:03 am »
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i don't think dominion and poker are that different, there's plenty of strategy in poker.

There's also plenty of strategy in bridge. Or in go. Or in football. Or in Europa Universalis. Or in Agricola. Would you say these games are similar to Dominion or to poker just because they have strategy in them ?

I would say MTG is relatively close, especially in drafting or vintage. Vintage has the "executing a combo" aspect, drafting has the "figuring out what to do with what I'm given" aspect.
I think sealed is closer to Dominion than drafting, since you get to know what you're given before you figure out what to do with it, unlike drafting.
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silverspawn

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Re: Poker
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 11:36:27 am »
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i don't think dominion and poker are that different, there's plenty of strategy in poker.

There's also plenty of strategy in bridge. Or in go. Or in football. Or in Europa Universalis. Or in Agricola. Would you say these games are similar to Dominion or to poker just because they have strategy in them ?

I would say MTG is relatively close, especially in drafting or vintage. Vintage has the "executing a combo" aspect, drafting has the "figuring out what to do with what I'm given" aspect.

I didn't say "dominion is close to poker because poker has strategy in it." KingZong wrote this

Quote
Dominion is more about strategy, and creating interaction between various mechanics in the game.

And I addressed that point by saying that Poker does have  lots of strategy. I don't even know which game has more.

Teproc

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Re: Poker
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 02:21:37 pm »
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Oh ok. Well I would say Dominion is more strategic than Poker. Strategy is about long-term planning, and in Poker most of your decisions are more tactical, since you have to adapt to what people bid and what that means about their hand.
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blueblimp

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Re: Poker
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 02:52:12 pm »
+1

I don't think I'd call poker strategic OR tactical. From what little I know of the game, it's mostly about: understanding the probabilities associated with your hand; inferring from your opponent's actions the probabilities associated with their hands; understanding how to incorporate those probability estimates into your betting strategy; and recognizing and exploiting the misplays of weaker players. None of that really fits into what I think of as "strategy" or "tactics" in a card or board game.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Poker
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 06:03:53 pm »
+3

I don't think I'd call poker strategic OR tactical. From what little I know of the game, it's mostly about: understanding the probabilities associated with your hand; inferring from your opponent's actions the probabilities associated with their hands; understanding how to incorporate those probability estimates into your betting strategy; and recognizing and exploiting the misplays of weaker players. None of that really fits into what I think of as "strategy" or "tactics" in a card or board game.

The only one of those four things I wouldn't label as strategic is the last one.  I think of strategy as meaning, you have to use intelligence/creativity/reasoning to make your decisions, but not in a way that can be calculated with any sort of precision.  Usually that manifests itself as long-term planning, but I don't think all strategy has to be long-term planning.  Dominion is a strategic game because you can't possibly calculate exactly what cards to get at what times; you just have to use your strategic intuition to figure out what kind of deck you want to build, and then how to go about building that deck.  Chess I would say is not a very strategic game (except at very high levels of play), because it tends to be decided by who makes the first computational error, even though the outcomes of that move could have been calculated in advance.

So with that in mind, poker is certainly a strategic game.  You have to develop an intuition as to the probability of certain hands winning, based on the information that's available to you, and deducing what hands your opponent(s) are likely to have based on their bets.  You can't possibly calculate those probabilities on the spot.

But even if that doesn't count as strategy, there is still a reasonable amount of strategy in deciding when to bet and how much.  It's not always about knowing how likely your hand is to win, and it's not always about bluffing.  It can also be about forcing your opponent(s) into bad positions.  You can imagine on the flop, you have an overpair and your opponent may have a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.  You know that there's a good chance you will have to fold if the opponent connects the flush or straight on the turn, so you make a big raise so that it is no longer profitable for your opponent to see the next card.  That is, you decide your hand is a lot stronger (relative to your opponent's) without knowing what the next card is than it is with the knowledge of the next card, so even though an overpair may not be super strong in general, you can decide that betting big is the best move, not as a bluff, but because if your opponent plays rationally he will have to fold since the strength of his hand heavily depends on the turn (and if he plays irrationally, even better! (on average)).  I think that sort of reasoning has to be classified as strategy, I don't know what else it would be.
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silverspawn

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Re: Poker
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2014, 01:12:25 pm »
+1

I have a pretty broad intuitive definition of strategy, for me all four of those would fall under it. but even if they don't, protection (which is what SP described) can hardly be called anything else than strategic.

blueblimp

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Re: Poker
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2014, 03:25:53 pm »
+1

Yeah, I'm even self-contradictory since I used the term "betting strategy" then claimed it wasn't strategy. That said, I usually think of strategy in a game as a broad plan that's mostly formed before even a single move is made in the game. Tactics, on the other hand, I think of as short-term calculations to find a move that improves your position, where the goodness of the position is judged according to your strategy.

In those senses, Dominion is the most strategical game I know of, because the forming of strategy is placed within the game itself. There are other games with plenty of strategy needed but that strategy is typically a metagame activity so it's not fully part of the game itself (such as in CCGs where you can netdeck).
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Awaclus

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Re: Poker
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2014, 03:34:35 pm »
0

Yeah, I'm even self-contradictory since I used the term "betting strategy" then claimed it wasn't strategy.
That doesn't necessarily have to be self-contradictory. Herbal teas aren't teas.
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silverspawn

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Re: Poker
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2014, 06:52:03 pm »
0

this game is frustrating. maybe I should play dominion after all.

it's worth noting that protection isn't actually good for anything, if your opponent has absolutely awful odds compared to the amount he has to bet, but just calls anyway and gets the flush.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 08:39:49 am by silverspawn »
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Davio

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Re: Poker
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 12:49:30 pm »
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If you paid off when he bet the river, than he was justified by his implied odds.
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