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Author Topic: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?  (Read 46542 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2012, 09:14:24 am »
0

I actually don't know that that's true. I make mistakes rather often - it's a big part of what keeps me from 50 ;)

RisingJaguar

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2012, 09:27:39 am »
+1

I actually don't know that that's true. I make mistakes rather often - it's a big part of what keeps me from 50 ;)
Yeah I feel like this is a huge misconception that lv 40+ players play like optimal robots or something.  I know for sure I'm not a robot. 
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Forge!!!

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2012, 09:55:06 am »
0

Go thread, go! You can do it! You can stay alive!
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paddyodoors

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2012, 10:06:12 am »
+2

10 levels






( surprised no one cracked that one yet... either your minds aren't as twisted as mine or else all of you have more self control. ;D )
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GendoIkari

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2012, 10:41:36 am »
+6

10 levels






( surprised no one cracked that one yet... either your minds aren't as twisted as mine or else all of you have more self control. ;D )


What's sad is that when I first read this, I totally didn't get it; thought it might be a reference to something I wasn't familiar with. I came back 10 minutes later and read it again, and then got it.

That's why I'm only a level 36.  :-[
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theory

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2012, 11:32:00 am »
0

As someone who is back to level 30's after inactivity, and climbing his way back up, the biggest difference I see between playing WW and some random 30:

* Identifying which creative/crazy strategies will actually work and which are just stupid
* Making a better judgment on money/engine: i.e., this engine strategy is bad, but is it still better than SmithyBM?
* Missing the less obvious combos: FV/Monument, NV/Bridge, etc.  There's a lot to remember!
* Most importantly, planning the engine better.  Not getting into situations where you've trashed too much money, or needing too long to activate your HoP engine.  Most players tend not to "see ahead" because deck draw is so random, but in engine games when you can mostly plan out how you're drawing each turn, the best engine builders are going to peak earlier and more efficiently.  You might both go for Double-Tactician, but his will be set up a little earlier, because he's planned out how to integrate each turn's buys better.
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philosophyguy

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2012, 12:05:37 pm »
+2

In light of theory's comment about putting the engine pieces together better: would some higher-level players be willing to do some game commentaries (either on YouTube or in forum posts) that focus on that element? I certainly would appreciate seeing some games where the commentary focused on "here's why I'm buying this component now" and "this is why I'm waiting for this component."
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2012, 01:02:53 pm »
0

In light of theory's comment about putting the engine pieces together better: would some higher-level players be willing to do some game commentaries (either on YouTube or in forum posts) that focus on that element? I certainly would appreciate seeing some games where the commentary focused on "here's why I'm buying this component now" and "this is why I'm waiting for this component."
I'd love to, but I'm lvl 40 and I have NO IDEA how to write that article / comment on one of my games.  I don't feel like I regularly have that level of insight, but that when I lose, clearly the other player did.

In my mind one of the differences between 30ish and 40ish is a reduction in (bot not elimination of ) "Autoplay"

Examples:
- Automatically buy power cards without sizing up the board to make sure that they make sense.  I lost a game today where I auto rushed Ill Gotten Gains because that's just the thing to do....
- Automatically play cards where you probably don't want to... Today against theory I had a hand of Warehouse + Gold x4 (Tmap), and 0 cards in draw pile.  Clearly, in this situation you don't want to play the warehouse, since those golds will sit out for a while.  I still got slaughtered in this game, but I'm pretty sure this decision kept it closer than it should have been.
- Automatically discard the lowest cards in hand... Yesterday I was hit by some Goons with a hand of Hunting Party, Silver x2, and Copper x2.  I discarded Silver + Copper.  The next 3 cards were: Copper, Copper, Goons.  If I had just auto discarded 2 coppers, I still would have had 6 coins, but wouldn't have the goons.
- A much more common scenario: Ambassador + 1 Estate + 3 Coppers.  I see many  people play this as "Ambassador -> Return 1 Estate -> Buy Silver".  While there are very few universal rules in Dominon, and this won't always apply, I generally prefer to return 2 Coppers and buy nothing in this scenario. 
- One final tip: Don't forfeit.  Even WW makes mistakes, so don't give up - even if it looks hopeless: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120405-073937-1c34f61a.html.  In this game WW plays Goons on me EVERY TURN from T6 through T19... at which point the score is 48 to 6, with 2 Goons left in the supply to end the game.  I still want to rage quit based on how I was feeling halfway through that game.

I didn't deserve to win that game, but a forfeit is a guaranteed loss. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2012, 01:11:56 pm »
0

- Automatically discard the lowest cards in hand... Yesterday I was hit by some Goons with a hand of Hunting Party, Silver x2, and Copper x2.  I discarded Silver + Copper.  The next 3 cards were: Copper, Copper, Goons.  If I had just auto discarded 2 coppers, I still would have had 6 coins, but wouldn't have the goons.

You would have still gotten the Goons, I think?

Hand is HP, 2 Silvers (2 Coppers were discarded)
Play HP, draw a Copper, reveal and skip Copper, reveal and keep Goons

Or am I missing something?
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:01 pm »
0

Oh, one more:

Veto Strategy!

I prefer to play without veto mode, but if you're going to put it on - use it strategically!  If you are first player... don't veto cards that favor the first player.

I personally doubleplus unlove Tournament.  I won't veto it from 1st player though... Against good players, from 1st player I usually look to leave as much "power" on the board.  As 2nd player - I want the game to be as slow as possible without giving power attacks to P1.  Every time I'm in a game and see someone veto Ill Gotten Gains as first player because "I don't like the way it plays", I sigh relief because my chance to win % just went up.  Yes, it's a game and I also get more "fun" out of games that don't feature IGG rush... but I still want to win!
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:49 pm »
0

- Automatically discard the lowest cards in hand... Yesterday I was hit by some Goons with a hand of Hunting Party, Silver x2, and Copper x2.  I discarded Silver + Copper.  The next 3 cards were: Copper, Copper, Goons.  If I had just auto discarded 2 coppers, I still would have had 6 coins, but wouldn't have the goons.

You would have still gotten the Goons, I think?

Hand is HP, 2 Silvers (2 Coppers were discarded)
Play HP, draw a Copper, reveal and skip Copper, reveal and keep Goons

Or am I missing something?
Doh!  This is why I'm stuck down @ 40, and WW continues to trounce me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2012, 01:29:16 pm »
0

Doh!  This is why I'm stuck down @ 40, and WW continues to trounce me.

But your discard tactic would have been beneficial if the next 3 cards had been Copper, Silver Goons.  It's still a good tip on how to use HP! :)
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RisingJaguar

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2012, 01:36:34 pm »
+2

In light of theory's comment about putting the engine pieces together better: would some higher-level players be willing to do some game commentaries (either on YouTube or in forum posts) that focus on that element? I certainly would appreciate seeing some games where the commentary focused on "here's why I'm buying this component now" and "this is why I'm waiting for this component."
I find it odd I'm level 45, but if there is one thing I'm relatively good at, it is building engines.  I'll probably just expand on games from Isodom/DominionStrategy tournament because those were some of the more intricate games I have played.  I'm thinking something similar to Annotated games setup (That's a good place to start btw) which has pre-game thoughts, choosing between Opening A and B, Anomalies, etc.  I have been quite busy lately, but probably early May or so I'll try to do a couple of these.  I have a couple games in mind to choose from. 
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2012, 04:09:28 pm »
0

I actually don't know that that's true. I make mistakes rather often - it's a big part of what keeps me from 50 ;)
Yeah I feel like this is a huge misconception that lv 40+ players play like optimal robots or something.  I know for sure I'm not a robot. 

Yeah, every single one of us still makes plenty of mistakes from time to time.  Everyone.
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Asklepios

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2012, 04:09:48 am »
0

On the subject of autoplay, here's a couple of silly autoplay led mistakes I've done:

1) Get Mountebanked, discard a curse.

Actually not always the best thing to do. There have been half a dozen times when I've suddenly realised I just did it without thinking and then realised a moment later it would have been more beneficial to me to gain a curse and copper (e.g. because it was a gardens game and I was 2 cards off turnover to the next VP value, or because that would have reduced curses remaining from 2 to 1, and let me buy a curse to end the game ahead the next turn)

2) Buying maximum numbers of VP amounts rather than the amount I need to win.

A game I played yesterday was based around Wharf, Bridge and Fishing Village, and I let it go on a turn too long by buying a Colony and a Duchy on $16 and 9 buys, when I actually had enough to buy Colony and 8 curses, and end the game 2 points ahead. I realised my mistake and won the next turn instead, but that was still a turn's unnecessary delay, during which a lucky draw on the part of my opponent's engine would have let him win.

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DStu

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2012, 05:15:51 am »
0

A game I played yesterday was based around Wharf, Bridge and Fishing Village, and I let it go on a turn too long by buying a Colony and a Duchy on $16 and 9 buys, when I actually had enough to buy Colony and 8 curses, and end the game 2 points ahead.

Buying 8 Estates is also always a move to be considered here...
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Asklepios

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2012, 07:29:07 am »
0

A good point. I may be paraphrasing the exact situation, but I recall there was some reason that wasn't an option. Maybe it was $16, 7 buys and 6 curses left, or something.

edit: Ah here we are:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120410-052715-25b8e67a.html

It was Turn 15, I had enough buys to empty curses and end the game, but I justclicked end turn instead. Turn 16 I did it properly.

Note also this was a game where we both bought Tacticians without thinking, and saw very little utility from them. The turn I'm proudest of, in contrast, was Turn 10, when I thought properly and did this:

Asklepios plays a Talisman, a Silver, and 4 Coppers.
Asklepios buys a Pawn.
... gaining another Pawn.

...and my route to victory became apparent.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:35:20 am by Asklepios »
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Davio

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2012, 07:49:38 am »
+7

I think the endgame dance is also something that higher ranked players do better.

A lot of games have 2 players just basecamping and trying to first get their engine in full gear before they focus on the VP cards. Sometimes you'll just be plain behind in those games that it doesn't make any sense to try and build that same engine any more. So maybe you just have to start grabbing some VP cards and hope that your opponent ignores VP cards altogether and builds up his engine for so long that when it's done, it's too late.

This is also caused by "Autoplay" mode. I am a quick player myself so when I see a board, sometimes I just conjure up some simple linear strategy that even the simulator could play for me. When I have this amount of $, I will buy this, etc... When I'm really focused however, I think about every card in the kingdom, every buy, every card I play, what's left in my deck, when I want to reshuffle, what my opponent's doing and what his deck is like.

It won't surprise you that Dominion is a game of imperfect information, much like poker. Your "job" as a player is to best make use of the information you have at any given time. And that information changes over time. You may have started out with a strategy but had a bad shuffle. Time to evaluate again. The cards have no memory. Hoard doesn't know it's "supposed" to show up when you can buy a Province. Your opening buys don't know why they shouldn't be one of the two bottom cards of the deck.

Sometimes it's very hard to breakaway from the default power cards and the default engines. We can stare at the price levels and automatically think: A $6 MUST be better than a $5. A $5 MUST be better than a $4. Often, this will be true, but not always. Good players recognize these exceptions better.

Every kingdom will have its own traps and unique possibilities. Whether it's a power card that's useless or a crap card that's fantastic you shouldn't exclude anything. Great players may have a better arsenal of tricks they already know, but it's their inherent understanding of relative strengths and the risk they're willing to take with new combinations that makes them better, not playing the same strategy over and over again.

I think it's important that we're all willing to fail. A ranking can have a suffocating effect on a player. Once a player reaches the high 30's and cracks the top #200 or something of best Dominion players in the world, the fear starts creeping in. The fear of losing.

I can speak from experience here. I used to accept only matches against lower ranked players and use basic strategies to ensure wins. I wasn't learning anything or growing as a player, I was just maintaining my position. The fun with which I once started this fantastic game had somehow slipped away. I was using Dominion as something to just pass the time, not to enjoy it as the game I once loved.

Eventually I started to play less and less and my ranking slipped from 36 to 32 and I felt kind of..... liberated. Not worrying about my ranking so much anymore made me fall back in love with the game. Now I don't worry so much about crazy strategies anymore. I don't care if I lose with 0 points or win with 100. Sure, I still play to win and try my hardest to achieve it, but the winning itself is not the be all end all anymore.

I think this is true for a lot of journeys in our life. The more we gain, the more we stand to lose, so we just try to maintain. But maintaining is not living. Maintaining is dying, slowly. I'm not saying you should be reckless, give up everything and travel the world as a nomad (you can still do that if you want to though), you should just realize that Dominion is just a silly game. The ranking is just a tool that you can use to find players of your own skill level.

If you start looking at the ranking as a goal instead of a means, you can easily lose sight of the most important thing about any game and why games are designed: TO HAVE FUN!

So go out there, play and HAVE FUN!!
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axlemn

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2012, 05:39:34 pm »
+2

From November to May, I was stuck around 30.  Then I talked to my friend Jfrisch about Dominion one day, and the next, I shot up 7 to high 30s. 

The things I did differently:
-think of cards as their effects and their costs, not as how good or bad they are.  This was what Jfrisch and I talked about most.  I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 
-relax and play less than 10 games and less than 4 losses a day.  I stopped playing for 3 days and my rating went up 2 points.  I was truly obsessed a month ago, and just not getting any better.  My rating needed time to flush out some of those games I shouldn't have played. 
-realize that it's more fun for both you and your opponent if you take the little extra time at the beginning and in the endgame to think about what you're doing.
-be completely sincere when I wished someone "good luck" or "have fun". 

Have fun with the game.  Maybe even chat a little bit. 
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2012, 07:25:13 pm »
0

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2012, 07:43:33 pm »
0

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
Wharf. You almost always want wharf, unless you're really really mega-rushing. Cursers, too though.

olneyce

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2012, 08:38:15 pm »
+1

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
Wharf. You almost always want wharf, unless you're really really mega-rushing. Cursers, too though.
Just had a game today where Wharf and Goons were on the board with some good trashing (including Mint) and no villages.  It seemed pretty obvious by the end that Goons was a trap and the pure money+Wharf+Minting Platinums was the way to go.
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2012, 09:39:58 pm »
0

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
Wharf. You almost always want wharf, unless you're really really mega-rushing. Cursers, too though.

If there's a strong engine with strong trashing, stopping to pick up a curse-giver sometimes will slow you more than it slows your opponent.  This is true least often for Mountebank IMO.  As for Wharf, it's sometimes not the best move if you have a cantrip engine (most frequently of the Hunting Party variety) that really wants a different terminal for whatever reason.
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Davio

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2012, 03:17:49 am »
0

Cursers also become relatively less powerful in multiplayer games. I recently played a real life game where I took a Sea Hag vs. 2 opponents who didn't and got 2nd, because the game lasted long enough for my opponents to weather the storm. All the while I was struggling to get an economy going.

You gotta give Dominion credit for all the different contexts in which we analyze cards. We're used to playing 1 vs. 1 because this strips Dominion down to its bare essentials, but I like 3 player best in real life and that's a whole different game!!

As WW must have noticed with his multiplayer madness games.

So even if you're never going to buy a Thief in a 2p game, you might love it in a 4p game when you hit 3 Golds, ka-ching!

I don't think Ambassador is a must buy; it's like Chapel in that it doesn't really help a BM strategy. Goons is probably a close one though, but it's only the 4th most popular card behind 1. Fishing Village, 2. Border Village and 3. Caravan. Border Village is probably up there because you can grab a Duchy along with it and BV + Duchy is often better than a single Duchy, unless you're relying on reaction cards...
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Jfrisch

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2012, 06:47:37 pm »
0

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120517-164811-67255806.html

This is the game that Olneyce mentioned. I think the moral of the story is that goons as a sole terminal is very strong, but not when you can't afford to water down your deck and the attack is not that harmful.

(as a side note, we both fell into this trap, it turns out that high level players fall into a bunch of the same traps as lower level players)
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