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Author Topic: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?  (Read 46426 times)

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Forge!!!

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What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« on: December 11, 2011, 02:50:43 pm »
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Partially because I just want to see more interesting discussion, partially because I figure I'll probably end up hovering around level 30 some day. So what separates the two?
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jonts26

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2011, 03:18:04 pm »
+2

This, I think, is a question with a much more concrete answer than the 40 to 45 thread. A level 30 player is certainly very good at dominion. But a level 40 player is elite. If I had to sum up the difference in one word, it would probably be experience.

If I had to sum it up in many words I would probably do it like this:

1) A level 30 player has a good grasp of the power cards and power combos. But they will probably overbuy these cards, failing to notice the times when they arent dominant or when there are good counters in the way a level 40 player might not. Mr. Level 30 might fail to notice less powerful combos on boards without power cards.

2) If a level 30 was playing a level 40 with a dominant combo on board, let's say torturer/fishing village, the level 40 player will have a feel of how to better incorporate the other cards on the board into their strategy in a way the level 30 probably won't. The level 30 player might have a hard time seeing beyond 'ooh torturer/village is the only way to play this board.'

Both of these issues really come down to playing more games, especially against better opponents. How many games it takes to get from 30 to 40 will certainly depend on a person's natural skill, but I feel like anyone good enough for 30 will be good enough for 40 given enough time.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 04:48:28 pm »
+2

Level 40 players tend to close out games better and don't give their opponents a chance at a win if they don't need to do so.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 04:52:06 pm »
+2

Level 40 players tend to close out games better and don't give their opponents a chance at a win if they don't need to do so.

This is very true. 3-pile-ending is a win-option which a level 40 player will use much more often than level 30 players.
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hobo386

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 05:03:38 pm »
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1) A level 30 player has a good grasp of the power cards and power combos. But they will probably overbuy these cards, failing to notice the times when they aren't dominant or when there are good counters in the way a level 40 player might not. Mr. Level 30 might fail to notice less powerful combos on boards without power cards.

This actually sounds alot more like the difference between level 20 players and level 30 players to me.  As a level 30ish player (33 for now), I've gotten here primarily because I can see past the "obvious combo."  Most level 20 players can recognize torturer/fishing village, and can beat me if they get good shuffle luck and that's all there is on the board.

2) is a little closer to the truth.  I'll notice all of the cards that combo together, but I might not know the perfect order to buy them in, and I don't always accurately realize what my average hand will look like in a few turns.

Let's assume in the torturer/FV option, we also have militia, bridge, hamlet, watchtower, and menagerie.  All of the cards could be great in this game.  Militia beats up your opponent's hand even more and might let you get to $5 earlier. Bridge lets you get in better buys (but could potentially clog your deck, and militia might be better). Hamlet fits in well with multiple actions and might even be better than FV for consistency (but when do you buy one?).  Watchtower pretty much nullifies torturer in any hand that you draw it and combos with FV/Hamlet (but it doesn't always work well with other +draw).  And menagerie works great with small hands, diverse decks and Hamlet (but is it worth it with watchtower? and how many do I buy?)
Throwing in a slow trasher might be interesting as well.  Remodel? probably not worth it.  Upgrade? Nice, but you have to sacrifice a torturer buy, and when do you do that?


I can see that all these other cards would be useful, but it's a matter of knowing which part would add the most benefit.  Also, knowing exactly when to start greening might be difficult in a game like this.

On the other hand, I'm great at when knowing to ignore big engines and just go for doublejack, double masquerade or something similar.

Edit: I also agree with DG.  Often times I will use an equally good strategy to an opponent but lose because I make a lategame mistake like buying province>duchy>estate when simply eating up the estate pile would give me a win.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 05:06:16 pm by hobo386 »
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2011, 05:40:22 pm »
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I think a level 40 player is a little bit better at everything than a level 30 player.

But if I had to mention one thing: I am right in between (level 35) and I realized that I both improved and still have to improve in my sense of the speed of the board. This is really important - on a fast board, there might be no point in buying a strong but slow card at turn 5 anymore (unless you have a thin deck where you will still get to play it quite often...).
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 03:28:15 am »
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As level 32: what hobo386 says (mostly).

3piling I actually like, and often do, but I also have the impression that I have a slight advantage there against the average +-10 level opponent and could steal some victories this way. I should add that I have the feeling that I have problems with some engines, both with building and rating the value, especially the Library/Watchtower-type of engine.  Think I have gotten better with standard Village/draw recently.  Also there are often times where I realize in the middle of the game that one of my starting buys was complete crap, and that I could have known that before. I started with Loan in FV/Torturer this weekend for example, thought some trashing would be nice. But you don't really need much trashing (at least of Coppers) there, and it does not really help getting those Torturers. And I should have known that.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 03:32:36 am »
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Having a level between 30 and 40 myself, I believe my biggest weakness is my lack of creativity sometimes and my abundance of creativity at other times.

I think the elite players are able to judge more precisely when a complex engine is needed and what they need to do to build it as fast as possible. They can also spot the times simple BMU+ is best.

I often find myself buying obligatory Silvers when I have $3 after the first or second reshuffle and I'm bummed out that I couldn't get to $5. I think I may buy too many Silvers which delays my reshuffles and doesn't add a whole lot to my deck.

So while I think I have a firm grasp of Dominion's fundamentals, I know I still have a long way to go and need to really focus to get better.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 10:35:31 am »
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The level 30s get beaten by level 40 players hiding as level 1s
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 11:35:13 am »
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The level 30s get beaten by level 40 players hiding as level 1s

I'm assuming you just got beaten by a level 1?
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 11:37:37 am »
0

It happens pretty often, not gonna lie, post was a joke though.  I'm definitely not a level 30 player
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 02:21:03 pm »
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Having a level between 30 and 40 myself, I believe my biggest weakness is my lack of creativity sometimes and my abundance of creativity at other times.

I think the elite players are able to judge more precisely when a complex engine is needed and what they need to do to build it as fast as possible. They can also spot the times simple BMU+ is best.

I often find myself buying obligatory Silvers when I have $3 after the first or second reshuffle and I'm bummed out that I couldn't get to $5. I think I may buy too many Silvers which delays my reshuffles and doesn't add a whole lot to my deck.

So while I think I have a firm grasp of Dominion's fundamentals, I know I still have a long way to go and need to really focus to get better.

I only just climbed up to 36 myself from 22 a month ago, and I have to say that this thread speaks most about what I've gotten better at.  Recognizing the combos potential vs. BMU, recognizing what cards can help/hurt the combo outside of the combo cards themselves (ie.  would warehouse help bring the pieces together or do you need more buying power from silver?), and accidentally flooding your deck with silver have all been mentioned and are very applicable.  Reading the comments it seems like I have a stronger grasp at recognizing a possible 3-pile ending than most 35ish players, but have a weaker understanding of what percentage of engine cards my deck needs to make the deck truly shine. 

It feels weird, ever since I hit 30 I expected to drop, but I just keep gaining ranks.  I guess the feeling that the 40+ players feel seeps down to this level as well  ;D
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 04:05:25 pm »
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It happens pretty often, not gonna lie, post was a joke though.  I'm definitely not a level 30 player
You really think it happens pretty often?

How do they keep their rank at level one with this alternate account, considering that they are level 40 players? 

As an example, I created an alternate account to experiment with.  After 15-20 games it was up into the teens.  Within 50 games it was above 30, I think.  The system is pretty responsive to a chain of victories.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 04:32:01 pm »
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It happens pretty often, not gonna lie, post was a joke though.  I'm definitely not a level 30 player
You really think it happens pretty often?

How do they keep their rank at level one with this alternate account, considering that they are level 40 players? 

As an example, I created an alternate account to experiment with.  After 15-20 games it was up into the teens.  Within 50 games it was above 30, I think.  The system is pretty responsive to a chain of victories.

It happens to -me- pretty often (running in to a level 0/1 player who is clearly quite skilled)
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 05:01:09 pm »
+3

i've been hovering in the mid 30's for the past month or so.  here is my real quick take on what i think has gotten me past 30 as well as what i think is holding me back from 40.

getting over 30 -
- playing lots of games and reading this blog/forum are the primary reason, i think. (some of those early posts on the blog with the detailed match breakdown by top players blew me away.). on top of that, talking about the game with friends and opponents helps out a lot too.  it takes setting your pride aside some (and i am still usually too stubborn to do it) but i have learned a lot from losses to better players.
- teaching the game - i have had chances to discuss and teach strategy tp my brother, a friend or two, and a number of eager lower level players. teaching requires a clear understanding of the game, and some of their questions require you to think through some of the "feel" aspects of the game.
- 3 piling and alternate vp - keeping an eye on 3 piling is huge. i will regularly play a game deliberately aiming for a 3 pile ending from the start. and personally, i think that alternate vp is the dominant strategy on almost any cursing or attack heavy board, even colony games.

keeping me from 40 -
- crutch cards - i still rely on some of the cards and combos that got me into the 20's and 30's. they are good, but sometimes they are just too slow.
- cards i don't understand - there are a few cards i still have no idea how to use properly (governor, golem, trader, apothecary, trade route come to mind) and a few that i am not very good with.
- reliance on big money - i am a decent engine builder, but i think i over rely on straightforward big money type strategies. this just doesn't work so well on a lot of the higher level players. as part of this, i am way to reliant on silver.
- sticking to my strategy - i have no problem holding to my strategy against lower levels, but if i fall behind against a top player i tend to panic. i need to learn better when to stick to my plan as well as when to abandon my plan and swing for it.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 05:00:00 am »
+1

A mistake I probably make too often: Trashing too agressively with Steward. In games that offer a very nice Action engine, I tend to trash everything first with Steward before I start grabbing the components. I think this is a little slower (depending on the engine) than grabbing some key cards first and worrying about trashing later. Especially if you're able to draw everything from turn X onwards anyway.

I'm too worried about bad draws, I guess...
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rod-

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2012, 11:02:51 pm »
+1

Judging by the differences I just noted between
councilroom.com/player?player=rod-
councilroom.com/player?player=WanderingWinder

I think a lot of it may involve being selective about who you play with.  I've not moved much despite winning 70+% of my games over the last month, because i play with whoever i get paired with. (avg: level 10).  Meanwhile, Fabian and WW have leveled out at barely 60% win rates, but are selectively playing against people who aren't (on average) 1-2 turns slower than them.  The skill formula seems to recognize and reward that selectivity. 

TLDR: play selective automatch, +/- 5 or maybe +/- 10, if you're really looking to make level 40.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2012, 01:12:09 am »
+2

Judging by the differences I just noted between
councilroom.com/player?player=rod-
councilroom.com/player?player=WanderingWinder

I think a lot of it may involve being selective about who you play with.  I've not moved much despite winning 70+% of my games over the last month, because i play with whoever i get paired with. (avg: level 10).  Meanwhile, Fabian and WW have leveled out at barely 60% win rates, but are selectively playing against people who aren't (on average) 1-2 turns slower than them.  The skill formula seems to recognize and reward that selectivity. 

TLDR: play selective automatch, +/- 5 or maybe +/- 10, if you're really looking to make level 40.

I'm not quite sure what my "real" Isotropic rank is. I used to hover around 30, sometimes dropping on a bad day and spending a week clawing back up.

Then, I decided to play with +/- 15 instead of nothing for a change. Next thing I know my rank has jumped up to 34 because of some 1st player advantage wins against high level people, and some more convincing wins against similar level players. It's dropped a bit since then, some of that gain was artificial. But I don't think all of it was.

You should play with +/- something anyways: Dominion stops being fun when the other player doesn't buy Ambassadors and you go through the motions, and starts getting interesting when you see a 40+ player buy Saboteur.


EDIT: I normally don't do this, but it's so important that I have to.

3-piling. Watch out for it. You can end a game on 3 piles a lot more than people think. I've won back so many games with 4-6 or 3-7 curse splits by 3-piling.

If two piles are beginning to run low, buying up a ton of Duchies becomes a strong move, even stronger if the person you're playing against doesn't realize what you're doing. Always watch the amount of cards in each pile, especially if +Buy is an option. If you're playing an engine deck, 3-piling reduces the risk of stalling because of Victory cards. If you're playing an alternative VP strategy, you want to end the game before they can buy Provinces. If you can end the game and be the winner, then do it, and don't give them a chance to make a comeback.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 02:52:09 am by Titandrake »
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2012, 10:42:05 am »
0

Judging by the differences I just noted between
councilroom.com/player?player=rod-
councilroom.com/player?player=WanderingWinder

I think a lot of it may involve being selective about who you play with.  I've not moved much despite winning 70+% of my games over the last month, because i play with whoever i get paired with. (avg: level 10).  Meanwhile, Fabian and WW have leveled out at barely 60% win rates, but are selectively playing against people who aren't (on average) 1-2 turns slower than them.  The skill formula seems to recognize and reward that selectivity. 

TLDR: play selective automatch, +/- 5 or maybe +/- 10, if you're really looking to make level 40.

I think Isotropic generally tries to pair you with people around the same level where possible.  I know for a fact that WanderingWinder doesn't always set a rank constraint, because I've been auto-matched against him 4 times in the last month or so.  I'm 18 levels below him now.  I've been auto-matched when >20 levels below him, though.

I wouldn't attribute his rank to somehow gaming the system, certainly.  You can tell when someone you're playing is better than you.  He was clearly better than me.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2012, 11:12:35 am »
0

If there was no difference in opponent skill,
All games   1.355
would not be rated lower than
All games   1.220
because 67% is more than 61%. 

(BTW, before anyone asks the question:  52+/-6 vs 48+/-9 ; yes, playing many thousands of games is a great deal of the difference, but certainly not the entirety of it)

It's not "gaming" the system to raise your skill by playing versus good players, because you still have to be better than good to have a good win rate against them, but since there are only two parameters in the skill calculation, (Win/loss, opponent skill), and the first parameter is higher in a 30 than a 40, the second parameter is clearly the difference between a level 30 and a level 40. 

WW is an excellent player and deserving of #1 in all respects.  I'm not trying to belittle him in any way, I'm just trying to give out some information that is, in my opinion, more relevant to the difference between level 30 and level 40 than "Play good cards at good times".
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 11:20:12 am by rod- »
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2012, 11:22:28 am »
+1

I always set auto-match without restrictions to a player's ranking, so a lot of the time I'm playing against lvl10-ish players and I've still risen to the top so I don't think it matters (I play my fair share of high level games, don't worry). Just make sure you don't lose against the n00bs (show no mercy).

I feel a lvl+40 player just makes a few less mistakes than a lvl30. Often this is because the lvl 40 has made those same mistakes in the past, but learnt from them while a player stuck on lvl30 is probably continuing to make those same mistakes. So if you really want to get unstuck, be extremely critical of your play.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2012, 11:42:06 am »
0

I think the key lies in your playstyle.  Captain Frisk proved you could reach top 10 pretty easily if you did nothing but always win against really bad players.  I'm not as capable of doing that (e.g., I have doubts about my ability to beat the average level 10 98+% of the time), and instead raised my rank by being able to consistently achieve or slightly exceed 50/50 parity with the top players.  Either approach is a legitimate approach to raising your rank.

That having been said, I do believe that there is a concrete skill gap between the 40's and the 30's, and that it's not entirely (or mostly) explainable due to strategic opponent choice.  In my experience, I had about 50/50 parity with most 40+ players (certain players excepted), but usually achieved 60/40 or better against players that were stuck in the 30's. 
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2012, 12:30:38 pm »
0

I currently hover around 30, and I can definitely see a difference between myself and 40s.  I can beat them, but I'm always fearful of the hidden strategy that they can see and I can't.

This is an example game with Goons where the only way to get extra actions is by using Throne Room on Markets.  I saw the possibility, but figured it wasn't likely to work out.  shark_bait showed me how very wrong I was.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-173131-050ef614.html

I probably should have tried to contest his cards when he started doing it, but I don't think my deck was in very good position to do so.  (The funny thing was that this was during the whole leaderboard debacle and shark_bait was showing up as lv17)

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2012, 12:33:32 pm »
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By the way, that's also a game where I expect workshop to be nice - you really want those throne rooms.

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2012, 01:20:21 pm »
0

Geronimoo certainly falls into the "70% against the world" category - it seems both approaches can work. 

Perhaps I'm actually on the 30-40 transition and am just waiting on history to catch up, instead of being plateaued at 35+/-2 like i thought.  I stopped caring enough to graph my daily ranking a few months ago, as fun as it was to "know" every time i reached a skill plateau and force myself to shake up my playstyle afterwards.  Maybe that's worthwhile advice.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2012, 01:33:25 pm »
0

By the way, that's also a game where I expect workshop to be nice - you really want those throne rooms.
I agree, also surprised that horn of plenty was untouched for a game that relied on getting quantity (of actions) in your deck. Similar idea why workshop would be nice.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2012, 02:26:40 pm »
0

I always set auto-match without restrictions to a player's ranking, so a lot of the time I'm playing against lvl10-ish players and I've still risen to the top so I don't think it matters (I play my fair share of high level games, don't worry). Just make sure you don't lose against the n00bs (show no mercy).

I feel a lvl+40 player just makes a few less mistakes than a lvl30. Often this is because the lvl 40 has made those same mistakes in the past, but learnt from them while a player stuck on lvl30 is probably continuing to make those same mistakes. So if you really want to get unstuck, be extremely critical of your play.

I personally always play with +-10, sometimes more if I really want to get a game in.  I do this because I become a stronger player if I can see what stronger players are doing.  If I play against a level 10 player, he probably won't be doing anything I haven't seen before and thus I'm not getting anything out of it, skillwise.

That's definitely something I suggest to players of all levels.  Try to always play against someone slightly higher than your skill level.  Try to notice what they do and try it out yourself later.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2012, 02:33:19 pm »
+3

I play with +/- 15 most of the time. Thought I don't think it has anything to do with improving my ranking or anything. I just don't find winning games against lvl 10s to be very satisfying.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2012, 02:35:16 pm »
+1

I play with +/- 15 most of the time. Thought I don't think it has anything to do with improving my ranking or anything. I just don't find winning games against lvl 10s to be very satisfying.

Same here.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2012, 02:37:37 pm »
0

I'm generally trying to get the most games I can. That's a compromise between fast games (better players play faster) and more games (wider the range, more people in the pool, faster you get a game). I also prefer playing strong people somewhat. This usually has me at +/- 15 to +/- 20 nowadays, but I look at who's in the room, start with a smaller range, and make it bigger if I'm not getting a game fast enough.

Tahtweasel

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 03:53:49 pm »
+14

View from level 39: I am strongest when I completely flout all of the conventional wisdom of the game. I am strongest when I refuse to buy Province, or buy weird cards that everyone hates, or use Throne-roomed Feasts as a makeshift source of +buy on a Highway set.


Here are two important pieces of anti-conventional wisdom:

1. The game length is extremely variable.

I know that sometimes, Province is a trap card. I love watching people build for a 14-turn game and realize that I've turned it into a 29-turn game. I buy Provinces significantly less often than my opponents, despite winning 2/3 of my games. Sometimes Goons, Monument, Bishop, Gardens, Duke, Vineyard, Ambassador, Rabble, Saboteur, or Silk Road can totally change the landscape of the game and drag it out too long.

Some strategy article writers make a big point of comparing your strategy to a 13-turn, 4-province baseline. All well and good. But what if I refuse to meet you on the other side? Rabble-Ghost Ship-Monument-Fishing Village. I don't even touch the Provinces. Have fun with your 3-dead-card hands.


I'm also willing to dramatically shorten a game. I've feasted a curse to run the pile out, and I've won games -1 to -7. I don't care if my wins are pretty.

2. "Bad cards" are good more often than we'd like to admit. Some "Good" cards are bad more often than we'd like to admit.

Some of my best cards are practically a who's who of cards that level 30 players have dutifully learned to stay away from or be wary of. Theory's articles [Edit: articles published on DominionStrategy that weren't actually written by Theory] will tell you that Smugglers is a very bad card. This is a white lie to help new players, who fall for it as a trap card. Smugglers is a bad card in 70% of games. In the other 30% - well, you know those games where you get reduced to a sputtering rage because your opponent keeps getting "free" copies of the Wharves and Festivals you "worked so hard for?" Yeah, I'm that guy. Smugglers is one of my three best cards given available. I buy it in 30% of games, but I buy it in the right 30%. I'm similarly strong with Black Market and Outpost, which are also commonly considered traps because they're overrated by new players.

Some of my cards for best Win Rate With? Thief(!) is actually #1, with Stash, Explorer, Bureaucrat, Noble Brigand, and Oracle up there as well. I only rarely gain these cards (3%, 7%, 7%, 6%, 11%, 24%) but I do so in the games where they actually are worthwhile.

My best win rates without: Gardens, Alchemist, Militia, Farmland, Hoard, Smugglers, Silk Road, Secret Chamber, Ghost Ship, Apprentice.

Seven of those are incredibly powerful cards I love to have in my deck in most games. (Smugglers, SC, and Farmland aren't particularly powerful.) The difference between me and a level 30 player is that I buy these powerful cards less often than they do, because I see something that they don't about the shape of the board.

If you see a level 40 player buying Ghost Ship, you should be worried. If you see a level 40 player skipping Ghost Ship, you should be terrified.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 04:28:46 pm by Tahtweasel »
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theory

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 04:22:14 pm »
0

I think Tahtweasel hits on a really good point: identifying when good cards are bad and when bad cards are good.  It's easy to assume that Chapel is always strong and Bureaucrat is always weak, but as I think we've seen lately, ironclad rules rarely work out well in Dominion.

Of course, ironclad rules can get you pretty high, and are good for strategy articles (else every single article would be "it depends!"), but you gotta depart from it sooner or later.

Theory's articles will tell you that Smugglers is a very bad card. This is a white lie to help new players, who fall for it as a trap card.
Whoa, I never said that.  Maybe you're mixing me up with chwhite, who appears to really loathe Smugglers.  I like it quite a bit actually, as a psuedo +Buy, when the conditions are right (no great terminals, not getting $5 or $6 isn't a death knell).
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 04:27:08 pm »
0

I stand corrected. You're not the author of the "Fun With Popular Buys: Card Power Levels" article that appeared on DominionStrategy, which placed Smugglers in the "What Were You Thinking?" category.
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Tahtweasel

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 04:36:59 pm »
+1

I like it quite a bit actually, as a psuedo +Buy, when the conditions are right (no great terminals, not getting $5 or $6 isn't a death knell).
Other key characteristics of a pro-Smugglers game:
  • Actions are cheap
  • Everyone agrees that certain cards are very good and should be picked up

The ideal setup for Smugglers would be something like Caravan, Highway, Fishing Village, Laboratory, Steward, Smugglers, and four useless Kingdom cards.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2012, 04:43:23 pm »
0

Whoa, I never said that.  Maybe you're mixing me up with chwhite, who appears to really loathe Smugglers.  I like it quite a bit actually, as a psuedo +Buy, when the conditions are right (no great terminals, not getting $5 or $6 isn't a death knell).

I wouldn't say I "loathe" Smugglers at all- I do think it's the second-weakest $3, but all the $3s have some decent use.  For Smugglers I find that use tends to be stuff like Minion or Grand Market mirror matches.  Admittedly this is quite a bit different and narrower than your use for the card.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 04:49:56 pm by chwhite »
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2012, 04:51:09 pm »
+1

Having been on the receiving end, Tahtweasel's post sounds about right.  I think it all comes down to lateral thinking.  When I lose to someone who's level 30, I usually learn something from my play.  When I lose to someone who's level 40, I usually learn something from their play.

Quote
I'm also willing to dramatically shorten a game. I've feasted a curse to run the pile out, and I've won games -1 to -7. I don't care if my wins are pretty.

I had a game where my opponent Ambassadored 2 Provinces to run out the pile.  I'd have never considered that.  You've never lost until you've lost like that.

Quote
If you see a level 40 player buying Ghost Ship, you should be worried. If you see a level 40 player skipping Ghost Ship, you should be terrified.

This.  I'll look at a board and think it's clear that I need Ambassador only to learn that Merchant Ship was the better card to go for.  That's the difference in a nutshell.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2012, 04:51:26 pm »
0

Smugglers also has the characteristic that to a certain extent its usefulness is proportional to the skill of your opponent.  If your opponent is floundering with a lot of bad buys, Smuggler is just going to toss junk in your deck.  If your opponent has a better game plan than you, Smuggler *might* help you reverse course and catch up. 

There's obviously more to Smugglers than that, but it helps to explain to a certain extent why players' opinions of the card often go down as their play improves.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2012, 04:52:30 pm »
0

I stand corrected. You're not the author of the "Fun With Popular Buys: Card Power Levels" article that appeared on DominionStrategy, which placed Smugglers in the "What Were You Thinking?" category.
No, he wasn't. That was CaptainFrisk.
Furthermore, CaptainFrisk wasn't saying it was 'What Were You Thinking?' - the statistics were.

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2012, 05:06:44 pm »
+3

Tahtweasel's post is cool and all, but be wary of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome). I feel that quite a lot of the +30 (and even +40) suffer a bit from FPS where they want to combine all these cool actions or win in an unconventional matter while some boards are really not suited for those kinds of shenanigans.

Of course, the only thing at stake is your rating and not your huge chip stack in a poker tournament for real money, so I'd say: if you're having fun, go nuts and play as fancily as you can!
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2012, 05:20:02 pm »
+1

Hi Everyone,

My name is RisingJaguar and I suffer from FPS. 

(I will say that as someone who recently became apart of this apparent 'lv 40' club. I don't feel like my game has changed all that much if at all.  I'm pretty sure the lv. 40 club is referring to the elite level in general, but don't take the rankings too seriously.  Have fun with the game ^^)
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2012, 05:25:02 pm »
0

Hi Everyone,

My name is RisingJaguar and I suffer from FPS. 

(I will say that as someone who recently became apart of this apparent 'lv 40' club. I don't feel like my game has changed all that much if at all.  I'm pretty sure the lv. 40 club is referring to the elite level in general, but don't take the rankings too seriously.  Have fun with the game ^^)

28 here. I feel like my game improved a good bit when I stopped caring when I lose. I do unfortunately suffer from "I need to end on a win at all costs" which probably brings keeps me from climbing higher sometimes.

And as for FPS, last night I did this: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120111-162402-4dae122d.html. Provinces? What Provinces? I'm just going to spend all game building up on lots and lots of cantrips and no money!
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Tahtweasel

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2012, 05:27:33 pm »
0

Tahtweasel's post is cool and all, but be wary of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome). I feel that quite a lot of the +30 (and even +40) suffer a bit from FPS where they want to combine all these cool actions or win in an unconventional matter while some boards are really not suited for those kinds of shenanigans.

Of course, the only thing at stake is your rating and not your huge chip stack in a poker tournament for real money, so I'd say: if you're having fun, go nuts and play as fancily as you can!
I agree that I'm probably influenced a little bit by the joy of using Thief or Bureaucrat correctly. I use them in 3% and 7% of games, respectively, but maybe it should be more like 2.5% and 5%. But I'm better-off than a player who never uses them.

I'd say that the primary "fancy play syndrome" cards are ones like Highway. I can actually think of games where my opponent and I reached 4 provinces in 17 turns, despite having no attacks and Smithy on the board. Your simulator would have been ashamed of us.

Lastly, probably 70% of games between high-level players are mirror matches, where the players are executing identical strategies with almost-even tactical ability. My first post ignored these games because I can't offer much advice on winning them. "Try to draw 2 Estates with your Chapel on turn 3 or 4" isn't very helpful. ;)
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2012, 05:59:36 pm »
0

Tahtweasel's post is cool and all, but be wary of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome). I feel that quite a lot of the +30 (and even +40) suffer a bit from FPS where they want to combine all these cool actions or win in an unconventional matter while some boards are really not suited for those kinds of shenanigans.

Of course, the only thing at stake is your rating and not your huge chip stack in a poker tournament for real money, so I'd say: if you're having fun, go nuts and play as fancily as you can!
I agree that I'm probably influenced a little bit by the joy of using Thief or Bureaucrat correctly. I use them in 3% and 7% of games, respectively, but maybe it should be more like 2.5% and 5%. But I'm better-off than a player who never uses them.

I'd say that the primary "fancy play syndrome" cards are ones like Highway. I can actually think of games where my opponent and I reached 4 provinces in 17 turns, despite having no attacks and Smithy on the board. Your simulator would have been ashamed of us.

Lastly, probably 70% of games between high-level players are mirror matches, where the players are executing identical strategies with almost-even tactical ability. My first post ignored these games because I can't offer much advice on winning them. "Try to draw 2 Estates with your Chapel on turn 3 or 4" isn't very helpful. ;)

Bureaucrat is legitimately useful way more than 7 percent of the time; I'd put it at almost 20 percent these days, though it was way less than that pre-Hinterlands. 

I think by now you all know how often I consider Thief to be a useful card. :P
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Tahtweasel

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2012, 07:07:27 pm »
0

And as for FPS, last night I did this: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120111-162402-4dae122d.html. Provinces? What Provinces? I'm just going to spend all game building up on lots and lots of cantrips and no money!
That's excellent play, and not FPS at all. Hamlet is one of the absolute best linchpins of a Vineyards strategy. It's a cheap cantrip that gives you +buys to get more cheap cantrips.

Vineyards is a great strategy in long games. Province stalls in long games. You took him to 21 turns, and he wasn't prepared for that. WP.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2012, 07:08:09 pm »
+1

Tahtweasel's post is cool and all, but be wary of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome). I feel that quite a lot of the +30 (and even +40) suffer a bit from FPS where they want to combine all these cool actions or win in an unconventional matter while some boards are really not suited for those kinds of shenanigans.

Of course, the only thing at stake is your rating and not your huge chip stack in a poker tournament for real money, so I'd say: if you're having fun, go nuts and play as fancily as you can!
I agree that I'm probably influenced a little bit by the joy of using Thief or Bureaucrat correctly. I use them in 3% and 7% of games, respectively, but maybe it should be more like 2.5% and 5%. But I'm better-off than a player who never uses them.

I'd say that the primary "fancy play syndrome" cards are ones like Highway. I can actually think of games where my opponent and I reached 4 provinces in 17 turns, despite having no attacks and Smithy on the board. Your simulator would have been ashamed of us.

Lastly, probably 70% of games between high-level players are mirror matches, where the players are executing identical strategies with almost-even tactical ability. My first post ignored these games because I can't offer much advice on winning them. "Try to draw 2 Estates with your Chapel on turn 3 or 4" isn't very helpful. ;)

Bureaucrat is legitimately useful way more than 7 percent of the time; I'd put it at almost 20 percent these days, though it was way less than that pre-Hinterlands. 

I think by now you all know how often I consider Thief to be a useful card. :P
Looking at your stats, it appears that you have probably gotten more thieves from Swindler than you have actually bought on your own.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2012, 02:00:51 am »
0

And as for FPS, last night I did this: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120111-162402-4dae122d.html. Provinces? What Provinces? I'm just going to spend all game building up on lots and lots of cantrips and no money!
That's excellent play, and not FPS at all. Hamlet is one of the absolute best linchpins of a Vineyards strategy. It's a cheap cantrip that gives you +buys to get more cheap cantrips.

Vineyards is a great strategy in long games. Province stalls in long games. You took him to 21 turns, and he wasn't prepared for that. WP.
Labs/Caravans/Hamlet/Oracles + a few Banks would have soaked up all the Provinces in +/- 17 turns.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2012, 03:14:46 am »
0

Labs/Caravans/Hamlet/Oracles + a few Banks would have soaked up all the Provinces in +/- 17 turns.

Seriously? Seems kinda hard to play for me. How many banks should you get?
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2012, 03:27:00 am »
0

I solitaired it a few times yesterday and had 3/4 Banks (and no other money apart from the 7 starting Coppers). I think you need to go for a few mega turns (3 Provinces each turn). If the other guy is buying a lot of Labs as well I don't think you can pull it off so I'm not sure if it counters the Vineyard strategy (although you could also 3-pile with the same core if you have enough Hamlets for +buy).
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2012, 09:24:46 am »
+1

The difference between me and a level 30 player is that I buy these powerful cards less often than they do, because I see something that they don't about the shape of the board.

Agreed 100% with this.  I'd say this represents the difference between level 30s and lower levels as well.

As someone who sometimes flirts with level 30, I feel like I often can generate decent enough engines on engine boards, and get a pretty good feeling for when engine boards or big money boards are going to be dominant.  I feel like I tend not to overbuy terminals.  There are definitely some boards where I think I see the synergies pretty well, and sometimes even better than the level 40 opponents that I end up facing from time to time.

But there are other times where there are combinations together that I just simply can't fathom just by looking at the board... until it destroys me.  I think some of that's experience admittedly.

Case in point where experience is huge: I played a live game yesterday with three other players (the best of whom would probably be Level 10-15) who brought Base Set + Cornucopia, and we had the following in play:

$3  Fortune Teller
$4  Throne Room, Remodel, Farming Village, Tournament
$5  Hunting Party, Market, Horn of Plenty
$6  Fairgrounds, Adventurer

The three other players in the game opened Fortune Teller + something (one of them Farming Village, one of them Tournament, one of them Silver), whereas I opened Remodel/Silver.

And they all just stared at me for grabbing that Silver instead of a Fortune Teller.  "Why wouldn't you want the attack card?" the best of the players asks me.

"I'm just not that kind of guy."

And after spending the next couple turns Remodeling Estates into Farming Villages and Tournaments, I get the first Province with no Estates in hand.  It dawns on them that the Fortune Teller is forcing me to cycle my deck to put the Province on top to draw with the Tournament, and they spend most of the rest of the game clearing their decks of Curses from Followers.

Second game: same set (they prefer to play that way), nobody buys a Fortune Teller until the very end (for the 15th card with Fairgrounds).  The game's a lot closer.

I have to admit that I saw the idea of having Fortune Teller bringing Provinces to the top... because I was on the exact opposite side of that idea about a month ago.

I think there's a lot to be said for the learning curve in this game, and a lot of times, it's hard to see exactly how some of the cards are going to interact with each other... until you've been beaten by it once.  Or twice.  Or...

It seems to me that the Level 40 player not only visualizes that better, but tends to also have more experience.
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Asklepios

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2012, 05:39:14 am »
0

I always set auto-match without restrictions to a player's ranking, so a lot of the time I'm playing against lvl10-ish players and I've still risen to the top so I don't think it matters (I play my fair share of high level games, don't worry). Just make sure you don't lose against the n00bs (show no mercy).

I feel a lvl+40 player just makes a few less mistakes than a lvl30. Often this is because the lvl 40 has made those same mistakes in the past, but learnt from them while a player stuck on lvl30 is probably continuing to make those same mistakes. So if you really want to get unstuck, be extremely critical of your play.

I think the bolded part above is the key. I'm happy that I can pull off neat games with clever routes to victory, and be aware of my deck, etc. etc.

My problem is inconsistency. One day I'll win ten games in a row and count a victory against a R40+ in there. Another day I'll lose against a R20 because I make a stupid mistake that a more consistently expert player wouldn't have. And on days I lose a match, I tend to lose five matches in a row, and am too stubborn to recognise that I'm not on top form that day, and really ought to switch off and do something else.

I think my other problem is creativity and observation. I'm fine with executing stuff I learnt here, but I'm not one of those players who would have recognised that DoubleJack is a power strategy, for example.

All in all, I'm sure 30-35 is where I belong, and probably where I'll peak. i think anyone with determination and intelligence can learn to be a level 30 player, but it takes a certain non-reproducible talent to hit 40 and stay there.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 05:44:14 am by Asklepios »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2012, 09:14:24 am »
0

I actually don't know that that's true. I make mistakes rather often - it's a big part of what keeps me from 50 ;)

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2012, 09:27:39 am »
+1

I actually don't know that that's true. I make mistakes rather often - it's a big part of what keeps me from 50 ;)
Yeah I feel like this is a huge misconception that lv 40+ players play like optimal robots or something.  I know for sure I'm not a robot. 
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Forge!!!

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2012, 09:55:06 am »
0

Go thread, go! You can do it! You can stay alive!
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paddyodoors

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2012, 10:06:12 am »
+2

10 levels






( surprised no one cracked that one yet... either your minds aren't as twisted as mine or else all of you have more self control. ;D )
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GendoIkari

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2012, 10:41:36 am »
+6

10 levels






( surprised no one cracked that one yet... either your minds aren't as twisted as mine or else all of you have more self control. ;D )


What's sad is that when I first read this, I totally didn't get it; thought it might be a reference to something I wasn't familiar with. I came back 10 minutes later and read it again, and then got it.

That's why I'm only a level 36.  :-[
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theory

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2012, 11:32:00 am »
0

As someone who is back to level 30's after inactivity, and climbing his way back up, the biggest difference I see between playing WW and some random 30:

* Identifying which creative/crazy strategies will actually work and which are just stupid
* Making a better judgment on money/engine: i.e., this engine strategy is bad, but is it still better than SmithyBM?
* Missing the less obvious combos: FV/Monument, NV/Bridge, etc.  There's a lot to remember!
* Most importantly, planning the engine better.  Not getting into situations where you've trashed too much money, or needing too long to activate your HoP engine.  Most players tend not to "see ahead" because deck draw is so random, but in engine games when you can mostly plan out how you're drawing each turn, the best engine builders are going to peak earlier and more efficiently.  You might both go for Double-Tactician, but his will be set up a little earlier, because he's planned out how to integrate each turn's buys better.
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philosophyguy

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2012, 12:05:37 pm »
+2

In light of theory's comment about putting the engine pieces together better: would some higher-level players be willing to do some game commentaries (either on YouTube or in forum posts) that focus on that element? I certainly would appreciate seeing some games where the commentary focused on "here's why I'm buying this component now" and "this is why I'm waiting for this component."
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2012, 01:02:53 pm »
0

In light of theory's comment about putting the engine pieces together better: would some higher-level players be willing to do some game commentaries (either on YouTube or in forum posts) that focus on that element? I certainly would appreciate seeing some games where the commentary focused on "here's why I'm buying this component now" and "this is why I'm waiting for this component."
I'd love to, but I'm lvl 40 and I have NO IDEA how to write that article / comment on one of my games.  I don't feel like I regularly have that level of insight, but that when I lose, clearly the other player did.

In my mind one of the differences between 30ish and 40ish is a reduction in (bot not elimination of ) "Autoplay"

Examples:
- Automatically buy power cards without sizing up the board to make sure that they make sense.  I lost a game today where I auto rushed Ill Gotten Gains because that's just the thing to do....
- Automatically play cards where you probably don't want to... Today against theory I had a hand of Warehouse + Gold x4 (Tmap), and 0 cards in draw pile.  Clearly, in this situation you don't want to play the warehouse, since those golds will sit out for a while.  I still got slaughtered in this game, but I'm pretty sure this decision kept it closer than it should have been.
- Automatically discard the lowest cards in hand... Yesterday I was hit by some Goons with a hand of Hunting Party, Silver x2, and Copper x2.  I discarded Silver + Copper.  The next 3 cards were: Copper, Copper, Goons.  If I had just auto discarded 2 coppers, I still would have had 6 coins, but wouldn't have the goons.
- A much more common scenario: Ambassador + 1 Estate + 3 Coppers.  I see many  people play this as "Ambassador -> Return 1 Estate -> Buy Silver".  While there are very few universal rules in Dominon, and this won't always apply, I generally prefer to return 2 Coppers and buy nothing in this scenario. 
- One final tip: Don't forfeit.  Even WW makes mistakes, so don't give up - even if it looks hopeless: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120405-073937-1c34f61a.html.  In this game WW plays Goons on me EVERY TURN from T6 through T19... at which point the score is 48 to 6, with 2 Goons left in the supply to end the game.  I still want to rage quit based on how I was feeling halfway through that game.

I didn't deserve to win that game, but a forfeit is a guaranteed loss. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2012, 01:11:56 pm »
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- Automatically discard the lowest cards in hand... Yesterday I was hit by some Goons with a hand of Hunting Party, Silver x2, and Copper x2.  I discarded Silver + Copper.  The next 3 cards were: Copper, Copper, Goons.  If I had just auto discarded 2 coppers, I still would have had 6 coins, but wouldn't have the goons.

You would have still gotten the Goons, I think?

Hand is HP, 2 Silvers (2 Coppers were discarded)
Play HP, draw a Copper, reveal and skip Copper, reveal and keep Goons

Or am I missing something?
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:01 pm »
0

Oh, one more:

Veto Strategy!

I prefer to play without veto mode, but if you're going to put it on - use it strategically!  If you are first player... don't veto cards that favor the first player.

I personally doubleplus unlove Tournament.  I won't veto it from 1st player though... Against good players, from 1st player I usually look to leave as much "power" on the board.  As 2nd player - I want the game to be as slow as possible without giving power attacks to P1.  Every time I'm in a game and see someone veto Ill Gotten Gains as first player because "I don't like the way it plays", I sigh relief because my chance to win % just went up.  Yes, it's a game and I also get more "fun" out of games that don't feature IGG rush... but I still want to win!
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:49 pm »
0

- Automatically discard the lowest cards in hand... Yesterday I was hit by some Goons with a hand of Hunting Party, Silver x2, and Copper x2.  I discarded Silver + Copper.  The next 3 cards were: Copper, Copper, Goons.  If I had just auto discarded 2 coppers, I still would have had 6 coins, but wouldn't have the goons.

You would have still gotten the Goons, I think?

Hand is HP, 2 Silvers (2 Coppers were discarded)
Play HP, draw a Copper, reveal and skip Copper, reveal and keep Goons

Or am I missing something?
Doh!  This is why I'm stuck down @ 40, and WW continues to trounce me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2012, 01:29:16 pm »
0

Doh!  This is why I'm stuck down @ 40, and WW continues to trounce me.

But your discard tactic would have been beneficial if the next 3 cards had been Copper, Silver Goons.  It's still a good tip on how to use HP! :)
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2012, 01:36:34 pm »
+2

In light of theory's comment about putting the engine pieces together better: would some higher-level players be willing to do some game commentaries (either on YouTube or in forum posts) that focus on that element? I certainly would appreciate seeing some games where the commentary focused on "here's why I'm buying this component now" and "this is why I'm waiting for this component."
I find it odd I'm level 45, but if there is one thing I'm relatively good at, it is building engines.  I'll probably just expand on games from Isodom/DominionStrategy tournament because those were some of the more intricate games I have played.  I'm thinking something similar to Annotated games setup (That's a good place to start btw) which has pre-game thoughts, choosing between Opening A and B, Anomalies, etc.  I have been quite busy lately, but probably early May or so I'll try to do a couple of these.  I have a couple games in mind to choose from. 
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2012, 04:09:28 pm »
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I actually don't know that that's true. I make mistakes rather often - it's a big part of what keeps me from 50 ;)
Yeah I feel like this is a huge misconception that lv 40+ players play like optimal robots or something.  I know for sure I'm not a robot. 

Yeah, every single one of us still makes plenty of mistakes from time to time.  Everyone.
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Asklepios

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2012, 04:09:48 am »
0

On the subject of autoplay, here's a couple of silly autoplay led mistakes I've done:

1) Get Mountebanked, discard a curse.

Actually not always the best thing to do. There have been half a dozen times when I've suddenly realised I just did it without thinking and then realised a moment later it would have been more beneficial to me to gain a curse and copper (e.g. because it was a gardens game and I was 2 cards off turnover to the next VP value, or because that would have reduced curses remaining from 2 to 1, and let me buy a curse to end the game ahead the next turn)

2) Buying maximum numbers of VP amounts rather than the amount I need to win.

A game I played yesterday was based around Wharf, Bridge and Fishing Village, and I let it go on a turn too long by buying a Colony and a Duchy on $16 and 9 buys, when I actually had enough to buy Colony and 8 curses, and end the game 2 points ahead. I realised my mistake and won the next turn instead, but that was still a turn's unnecessary delay, during which a lucky draw on the part of my opponent's engine would have let him win.

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DStu

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2012, 05:15:51 am »
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A game I played yesterday was based around Wharf, Bridge and Fishing Village, and I let it go on a turn too long by buying a Colony and a Duchy on $16 and 9 buys, when I actually had enough to buy Colony and 8 curses, and end the game 2 points ahead.

Buying 8 Estates is also always a move to be considered here...
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Asklepios

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2012, 07:29:07 am »
0

A good point. I may be paraphrasing the exact situation, but I recall there was some reason that wasn't an option. Maybe it was $16, 7 buys and 6 curses left, or something.

edit: Ah here we are:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120410-052715-25b8e67a.html

It was Turn 15, I had enough buys to empty curses and end the game, but I justclicked end turn instead. Turn 16 I did it properly.

Note also this was a game where we both bought Tacticians without thinking, and saw very little utility from them. The turn I'm proudest of, in contrast, was Turn 10, when I thought properly and did this:

Asklepios plays a Talisman, a Silver, and 4 Coppers.
Asklepios buys a Pawn.
... gaining another Pawn.

...and my route to victory became apparent.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:35:20 am by Asklepios »
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Davio

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2012, 07:49:38 am »
+7

I think the endgame dance is also something that higher ranked players do better.

A lot of games have 2 players just basecamping and trying to first get their engine in full gear before they focus on the VP cards. Sometimes you'll just be plain behind in those games that it doesn't make any sense to try and build that same engine any more. So maybe you just have to start grabbing some VP cards and hope that your opponent ignores VP cards altogether and builds up his engine for so long that when it's done, it's too late.

This is also caused by "Autoplay" mode. I am a quick player myself so when I see a board, sometimes I just conjure up some simple linear strategy that even the simulator could play for me. When I have this amount of $, I will buy this, etc... When I'm really focused however, I think about every card in the kingdom, every buy, every card I play, what's left in my deck, when I want to reshuffle, what my opponent's doing and what his deck is like.

It won't surprise you that Dominion is a game of imperfect information, much like poker. Your "job" as a player is to best make use of the information you have at any given time. And that information changes over time. You may have started out with a strategy but had a bad shuffle. Time to evaluate again. The cards have no memory. Hoard doesn't know it's "supposed" to show up when you can buy a Province. Your opening buys don't know why they shouldn't be one of the two bottom cards of the deck.

Sometimes it's very hard to breakaway from the default power cards and the default engines. We can stare at the price levels and automatically think: A $6 MUST be better than a $5. A $5 MUST be better than a $4. Often, this will be true, but not always. Good players recognize these exceptions better.

Every kingdom will have its own traps and unique possibilities. Whether it's a power card that's useless or a crap card that's fantastic you shouldn't exclude anything. Great players may have a better arsenal of tricks they already know, but it's their inherent understanding of relative strengths and the risk they're willing to take with new combinations that makes them better, not playing the same strategy over and over again.

I think it's important that we're all willing to fail. A ranking can have a suffocating effect on a player. Once a player reaches the high 30's and cracks the top #200 or something of best Dominion players in the world, the fear starts creeping in. The fear of losing.

I can speak from experience here. I used to accept only matches against lower ranked players and use basic strategies to ensure wins. I wasn't learning anything or growing as a player, I was just maintaining my position. The fun with which I once started this fantastic game had somehow slipped away. I was using Dominion as something to just pass the time, not to enjoy it as the game I once loved.

Eventually I started to play less and less and my ranking slipped from 36 to 32 and I felt kind of..... liberated. Not worrying about my ranking so much anymore made me fall back in love with the game. Now I don't worry so much about crazy strategies anymore. I don't care if I lose with 0 points or win with 100. Sure, I still play to win and try my hardest to achieve it, but the winning itself is not the be all end all anymore.

I think this is true for a lot of journeys in our life. The more we gain, the more we stand to lose, so we just try to maintain. But maintaining is not living. Maintaining is dying, slowly. I'm not saying you should be reckless, give up everything and travel the world as a nomad (you can still do that if you want to though), you should just realize that Dominion is just a silly game. The ranking is just a tool that you can use to find players of your own skill level.

If you start looking at the ranking as a goal instead of a means, you can easily lose sight of the most important thing about any game and why games are designed: TO HAVE FUN!

So go out there, play and HAVE FUN!!
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axlemn

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2012, 05:39:34 pm »
+2

From November to May, I was stuck around 30.  Then I talked to my friend Jfrisch about Dominion one day, and the next, I shot up 7 to high 30s. 

The things I did differently:
-think of cards as their effects and their costs, not as how good or bad they are.  This was what Jfrisch and I talked about most.  I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 
-relax and play less than 10 games and less than 4 losses a day.  I stopped playing for 3 days and my rating went up 2 points.  I was truly obsessed a month ago, and just not getting any better.  My rating needed time to flush out some of those games I shouldn't have played. 
-realize that it's more fun for both you and your opponent if you take the little extra time at the beginning and in the endgame to think about what you're doing.
-be completely sincere when I wished someone "good luck" or "have fun". 

Have fun with the game.  Maybe even chat a little bit. 
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2012, 07:25:13 pm »
0

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2012, 07:43:33 pm »
0

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
Wharf. You almost always want wharf, unless you're really really mega-rushing. Cursers, too though.

olneyce

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2012, 08:38:15 pm »
+1

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
Wharf. You almost always want wharf, unless you're really really mega-rushing. Cursers, too though.
Just had a game today where Wharf and Goons were on the board with some good trashing (including Mint) and no villages.  It seemed pretty obvious by the end that Goons was a trap and the pure money+Wharf+Minting Platinums was the way to go.
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chwhite

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2012, 09:39:58 pm »
0

I tried to come up with a few must-buys, and he patiently shot them all down one-by-one, even sea hag and (sort of) king's court. 

The existence of Ironworks-Gardens/SR is trivial proof that no card is a true must-buy.  Barring these sorts of rush strategies, in my experience Goons and Ambassador come closest.
Wharf. You almost always want wharf, unless you're really really mega-rushing. Cursers, too though.

If there's a strong engine with strong trashing, stopping to pick up a curse-giver sometimes will slow you more than it slows your opponent.  This is true least often for Mountebank IMO.  As for Wharf, it's sometimes not the best move if you have a cantrip engine (most frequently of the Hunting Party variety) that really wants a different terminal for whatever reason.
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Davio

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2012, 03:17:49 am »
0

Cursers also become relatively less powerful in multiplayer games. I recently played a real life game where I took a Sea Hag vs. 2 opponents who didn't and got 2nd, because the game lasted long enough for my opponents to weather the storm. All the while I was struggling to get an economy going.

You gotta give Dominion credit for all the different contexts in which we analyze cards. We're used to playing 1 vs. 1 because this strips Dominion down to its bare essentials, but I like 3 player best in real life and that's a whole different game!!

As WW must have noticed with his multiplayer madness games.

So even if you're never going to buy a Thief in a 2p game, you might love it in a 4p game when you hit 3 Golds, ka-ching!

I don't think Ambassador is a must buy; it's like Chapel in that it doesn't really help a BM strategy. Goons is probably a close one though, but it's only the 4th most popular card behind 1. Fishing Village, 2. Border Village and 3. Caravan. Border Village is probably up there because you can grab a Duchy along with it and BV + Duchy is often better than a single Duchy, unless you're relying on reaction cards...
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Jfrisch

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2012, 06:47:37 pm »
0

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120517-164811-67255806.html

This is the game that Olneyce mentioned. I think the moral of the story is that goons as a sole terminal is very strong, but not when you can't afford to water down your deck and the attack is not that harmful.

(as a side note, we both fell into this trap, it turns out that high level players fall into a bunch of the same traps as lower level players)
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 02:29:04 am »
0

Ambassador can be a liability on Possession boards
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 10:49:54 am »
+1

On a board that's good for Possession (usually meaning multi-Possession turns are possible, although maybe Governor/Possession counts too), you often want that Ambassador to set up your Possession engine. If you skip it and your opponent gets it, you may not be able to exploit your opponent's Ambassador at all.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 11:01:37 am »
+3

Also, if you go double amb, you can FORCE your opponent to take an ambassador at some point.

Piemaster

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2012, 05:50:56 am »
0

Yeah, I never said it is always bad on Possession boards, just that it can be
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2012, 10:53:41 am »
0

Sure, just like there are situations where border village isn't worthwhile with torturer. The thing is if Possession is on the board, ambassador is LESS likely to be mediocre than in other circumstances. The fact that ambassadoring VP gives good comeback chances makes how slow ambassador is, it's primary detriment, much less relevant
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O

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2012, 01:42:56 pm »
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Is it time for a What's the difference between a level 40 and a level 50 player thread?
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2012, 01:48:39 pm »
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We already kinda did that months ago (40 vs 45 though, which was pretty close to the ceiling in those days, unlike now).
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2012, 05:04:40 am »
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Sure, just like there are situations where border village isn't worthwhile with torturer. The thing is if Possession is on the board, ambassador is LESS likely to be mediocre than in other circumstances.
I totally agree.  But if you remember rightly (it was a while ago now), the original discussion was cards that are never bad and someone proposed Ambassador.  I'm not saying that it is anything less than an excellent card, even on many Possession boards.
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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2012, 06:19:22 pm »
0

I thought I'd put this game up on here because I think it shows how a 40+ player can see the angles better than a 30+ player (me): http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120717-075738-9c890f38.html I'm pretty sure I could have pulled this one out if I had reacted better, but I didn't see ahead to how long the game would stretch out.  I was way ahead at turn 12, keeping the lead thru 22, but I couldn't end the game.  lespeutere won, and thief was what turned it around for him.  It's been said before here in this thread, but the really top players know when a normally crap card can be the key to victory.


cards in supply: Alchemist, Bank, City, Feast, Harem, Highway, Laboratory, Mint, Potion, Steward, and Thief
I went for a very straight-forward alchemist/lab/money strategy.  Lespeutere started out similarly, but trashed nearly all his money with steward and mint.  Then he bought two thieves.  I had 4 provinces and a duchy by the time his thieves eradicated my economy.  From there, he used mints to acquire 7 harems (robbing me of mine to end up with all of them), and then he had enough to beat me with 3 provinces to my 5.

I hope he won't mind if I post our chat log after the game:

Quote
10:57 flies: gg
10:57 lespeutere: gg
10:58 flies: interesting play there
10:58 flies: didn't see it comn
10:58 lespeutere: it was
10:58 flies: :D
10:58 lespeutere: I didn't know how to play this really
10:59 lespeutere: without +buy, alchemist is terrible, normally
10:59 flies: mm
10:59 flies: hadn't noticed that
10:59 flies: makes sense, since it takes a while to build the chain
10:59 lespeutere: yes
10:59 lespeutere: but then your small deck enabled my thiefs
11:00 lespeutere: although I got lucky, I guess
11:00 flies: luck plays a part in all games
11:00 lespeutere: + you put your alchemists back every turn
11:00 flies: yea
11:00 flies: i considered that
11:00 lespeutere: letting your treasures rest in your drawind pile :)
11:00 lespeutere: drawing
11:01 flies: i thought i'd be able to get the lead and hold it, but i didn't see how the harems would enable a long game
11:01 lespeutere: I feared you would be
11:01 lespeutere: but then there was a way to empty a 2nd pile AND gain VP
11:02 lespeutere: + you already had 4 prov clogging your deck
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Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

eHalcyon

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2012, 06:22:42 pm »
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If he had trashed all his starting money with Steward and Mint, couldn't you have picked up a Thief or two yourself and hit him just as hard?
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flies

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2012, 06:34:01 am »
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i think so; as I said, I failed to react properly.  my thinking was that I would just hit the provinces so he wouldn't be able to recover, but that clearly didn't work.  On turns 15 and 16 i bought a potion and a highway where thieves would surely have served me quite well.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 10:28:17 am by flies »
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cayvie

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2012, 03:05:41 am »
+4

You know what?

For me, it was WanderingWinder's video channel.
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18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

she/her

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2012, 07:37:52 am »
+1

You know what?

For me, it was WanderingWinder's video channel.
Same here.

(And conversely, the difference between a level 40 and a level 30 player seems to be forum mafia.)


edit cause i can: I reaally wish WW still made more videos, might help me get excited about dominion again..
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 07:39:01 am by Eevee »
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cayvie

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2012, 04:08:45 pm »
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(And conversely, the difference between a level 40 and a level 30 player seems to be forum mafia.)

Heh.

Likewise.
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18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

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flies

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Re: What's the difference between a level 30 and a level 40 player?
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2014, 11:42:42 am »
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necro thread, but still a very valuabe topic.

I just wanted to say that I've been hovering around level 37-40 for a while, and one thing that keeps tripping me up is endgame control.  When you get toward the end of the game (you must pay attention to whether this is happening!), take extra time in considering your actions and especially your buys/gains.  PPR is easy, but its parallels in 3-piling and cases where your opponent can double-province/double-colony, it's a lot trickier.  And TfB like remodel/salvager are additional wrinkles.  So be careful!
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Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube
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