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[JW]

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Lighthouse, Develop, Urchin, Cutpurse, Herald, Ironmonger, JackOfAllTrades, Salvager, Count, Venture
I played this interesting kingdom IRL recently (Provinces/Estates). There’s a thorny Herald engine here, but the biggest problem is that Salvager is the only +buy. You’ll need Count or Urchin to trash quickly enough to get the action density for Herald, but then Salvager won’t have any targets once the engine is running unless you use a gainer (probably Count) to add a card for Salvager to hit each turn.

In the IRL game I opened Triple urchin (+Ironmonger on turn 4) to try to trash into the Herald engine, but poor shuffles hindered my Mercenary trashing and by the time I was trashed I was too far behind to catch up.
 
In comparison, Jack with Lighthouse (and Venture) for support won’t be that affected by Urchin/Mercenary or Cutpurse. It’s also hard for the engine to get a lot of points quickly to catch up.  I played it again online, and my opponent and I both went for Jack/Lighthouse and money. 

Thoughts? If SCSN thinks the engine wins 90+% vs. Jack, I’d be happy to learn that the hard way. :-)

[sudgy]

Another random idea I just got is to use jack in the engine, and use its silver as fuel for the salvager.

[Titandrake]

So, Jack/Lighthouse looks really fast. But, it's not like there aren't options - Merc trash is good, Count trash is good. You could maybe do something where you use Count to catch up in VP, discarding 2 cards and gaining Duchy, then use Jack to draw back up. The problem is that you have to pick up Jack, which keeps giving you Silvers.

I could be underestimating Herald but I don't think you can use Herald as your main draw - it feels like it would just take too long to get going. I'm very bad with Herald, so I could be wrong. You definitely want some for the +Actions though.

If the engine is viable, I think the secret is in Develop - you use Jack to draw back up, Salvager to trash out the Silvers for money, Develop turns Silver into $4/Lighthouse. The $4s in this game are really good, and it guarantees a Herald hit as well. So the core would become Jack/Lighthouse, and you gain lots of Heralds and Ironmongers along the way. As an added bonus it's net +1 card to your deck if you're worried about fueling Salvager...but I think the # of jacks you'd need means you shouldn't worry about that.

If I had all cards, I'd be interesting in trying to goldfish it - I think you might even open Jack/Develop, skip Merc, and get early Count for trashing instead if opponent correctly goes heavier on Jack/Lighthouse.

[Monsieur X]

If you allow me to change the title, thats for me : "Tricky Herald engine with Jack"

Here the Jack engine seems very interesting.
I would open ligthouse, jack. My first 5 i take count to trash the coppers (it seems the priority)
A lot of heralds, a salvager. Probably a 2nd jack, 2nd salvager. ironmongers
I think that can win over jack big money, but very dificult to play and you need to choose the good cards at good moment.

[luser]

Here I do not give engine much chances as there is herald. I tried several games and for money approach there is lot variance how fast is it based on how ligthhouses collide with jacks. However when it gets lead it quickly gets to six provinces as you could use 5-7 turn to get herald and topdeck gold/jack+ligthhouses to get 8 on following turns.

[JW]

If you allow me to change the title, thats for me : "Tricky Herald engine with Jack"

Here the Jack engine seems very interesting.
I would open ligthouse, jack. My first 5 i take count to trash the coppers (it seems the priority)
A lot of heralds, a salvager. Probably a 2nd jack, 2nd salvager. ironmongers
I think that can win over jack big money, but very dificult to play and you need to choose the good cards at good moment.

Lighthouse/Jack into the engine is interesting. I tried it against bots and trashing with Count is often slow because you draw hands where you only want to trash 2 cards with Count. And until you've trashed the starting cards, you have no reliable source of +Actions or + Cards (while still having actions left).

On 2/5 the engine seems much more realistic because Count as an opener trashes so quickly.  Would be happy to play sometime and be proven wrong, I'm sure my play left a lot of room for improvement.

Another good thing about opening Lighthouse/Jack is that if you don't hit $5 on the second shuffle, you can just switch to a double Jack strategy.

[silverspawn]

I'm all for jack engine here, but i'd open urchin for it, and add jack later. I doubt that, unless you have 2/5, count is going to be enough to trash down when you're also getting silvers constantly. count just isn't that good

[Davio]

Count with a regular handsize is a so-so trasher (worse than Chapel): From a 4-card hand (after putting Count in play), you discard 2 (trash 2), put one on top (trash 3), or gain a Copper (trash 4 - 1 Copper = 3).

So you trash either 2 or 3 while hampering your development, so it's more comparable to Steward than Chapel.
But Urchin/Urchin also seems pretty slow. Having a Merc against a double Jack player also isn't that powerful.

I think this kingdom offers a very sophisticated engine, but it's also very hard to build it as you have to make perfect decisions at every turn. The cards you "want" are obvious, the way you get them isn't.

[AdamH]

Man, I love Jack-in-an-engine more than just about anyone on here. This is really tough though because Lighthouse is a great enabler for Jack and the draw and villages in this engine are so weak. Building seems slow because you really want to gain a billion components in order to make it work but Salvager as your only +Buy and no gainers other than Jack really slows you down. You don't want to use it to trash Coppers -- you'd rather use Count for that -- but trashing Silvers with it isn't all that sexy either because Silvers are a lot of your payload! The engine without Jack just isn't viable at all IMO.

Fascinating board, BTW. I don't know what I'd do on it.

[Davio]

I think a perfectly executed engine beats double-Jack/Lighthouse.
I also think double-Jack/Lighthouse beats anything but a perfectly executed engine.

[2.71828.....]

Thinking toward Jack-in-Engine:  What about develop here?  Not right away (I like mercenary for copper trashing) but a little later to trash those silvers into ironmonger/lighthouse or herald/lighthouse?

[Titandrake]

Thinking toward Jack-in-Engine:  What about develop here?  Not right away (I like mercenary for copper trashing) but a little later to trash those silvers into ironmonger/lighthouse or herald/lighthouse?

Develop is really weird because it enables some interesting openings - I think you can actually afford to open Develop over Urchin/Urchin or Urchin/Cutpurse, because you can always Develop Estate -> Urchin topdeck.

I'm not sure on this, but I'm liking a Develop/Cutpurse opening. It is ridiculously gimmicky, but here me out.

If they collide, you can Develop into a Count/Urchin and get an early Count trash. Then pick up 2nd Urchin for Merc to get more trashing.
If you draw Develop before Cutpurse, you can likely Develop Estate -> Urchin and have a good chance of getting Merc.
If you draw it after, you'll still probably hit $5 for an early Count thanks to terminal silver. Worst case scenario, you trash a Copper and can probably get Jack/Lighthouse or Jack/Urchin on turns 3/4.

You don't want Jack until you can either Salvage or Develop those Silvers - so don't open with it.

[luser]

Thinking toward Jack-in-Engine:  What about develop here?  Not right away (I like mercenary for copper trashing) but a little later to trash those silvers into ironmonger/lighthouse or herald/lighthouse?

You should not buy urchins. From my plays when bot it accelerates jack by several turns with discards boosting 5->6 and 7-8

[silverspawn]

Thinking toward Jack-in-Engine:  What about develop here?  Not right away (I like mercenary for copper trashing) but a little later to trash those silvers into ironmonger/lighthouse or herald/lighthouse?

You should not buy urchins. From my plays when bot it accelerates jack by several turns with discards boosting 5->6 and 7-8

yea but you hurt him if he doesn't have jack in hand, and you help yourself a lot. merc still sounds better than count to me.

[Titandrake]

Urchin is purely for Merc trashing and that's it. If opponent sees you buying Urchin, they'll either buy a 3rd Jack or Lighthouses to make the attack not matter. I don't think it matters that it hurts if they don't have Jack in hand - the benefit on turns they do have it will outweigh it.

I'm not saying you don't want Merc, but it's definitely purely for the trashing if you do get it. I still think opening Develop and choosing between Count and Merc based on your turns 3/4 is better.

[silverspawn]

Urchin is purely for Merc trashing and that's it. If opponent sees you buying Urchin, they'll either buy a 3rd Jack or Lighthouses to make the attack not matter. I don't think it matters that it hurts if they don't have Jack in hand - the benefit on turns they do have it will outweigh it.

I'm not saying you don't want Merc, but it's definitely purely for the trashing if you do get it. I still think opening Develop and choosing between Count and Merc based on your turns 3/4 is better.

no disagreement there

[Davio]

I think that if you're only using Merc's trashing ability, you're not getting enough out of it to make it worth your while.

If you go Urchin/Urchin, the earliest you can trash is at T5 and that's already a bit late. Ideally, you open with a trasher, because those couple of turns really matter. Even more so here, when Jack can take a quick lead with Provinces and Duchies.

My gut feeling is that the perfect engine still only has 55% - 45% against the Jack player.

[JW]

Monsieur X and I played 7 games of this, with me playing Jack-money (with support from Lighthouse, Venture, and Ironmonger- probably bought too many Ironmongers) and him playing the engine.

We concluded that Lighthouse-Salvager is a nice 3/4 opening for the engine, because it has a high chance to get Count on the second shuffle, trashes down quickly, and keeps action density high for Herald.

I won 2 of the 3 games where he opened Salvager/Lighthouse. I won 2 of the 3 games he opened other things on 3/4.  I lost the 1 game he opened 5/2 (Count/Lighthouse).

In order:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407481538587.txt
Mr. X opens Jack-Lighthouse.  I win.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407482071939.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Silver. I win.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407482749982.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Silver. He wins.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407483364734.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Lighthouse. He wins.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407483878730.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Lighthouse. I win.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407484468014.txt
Mr. X opens Count-Lighthouse. He wins.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407484989866.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Lighthouse. I win.

[Monsieur X]

Very interesting to play this matches!

Playing 7 matches is not a lot but i would like to make a few comments on engine :

- the opening : i would say salvager/ligthouse or maybe salvager/silver.
I dont know clearly.

- count here is, for me,the key card.
1/ to trash the coppers -  you can or create an other or better top deck an estate  (if you have count copper *3 estate) to give to your salvager or your jack if there is high probability to have it next hand
2/ to help the engine, discarding cards to have a better jack's draw
3/ at the end for points, to have a duchy or to be salvaged. I prefer to keep it all the game but sometimes no choice!

- how do i choose with 4 between herald and ironmongers?
most of time i took herald because i think here its better to make the engine working except :
1/ first turns if i think i have trashed little cards, and have low potentiality of trashing. For example if i have problems to buy my count.
I want to cycle more my game.
2/ at the end of game (not very frecuent) or middle game when i begin to green. At this time, the jack engine can have problems and ironmongers can help discarding

-in a dream game, i want 2 salvagers, 2 jack, and one count
if you go engine, you want powerfull and lot of points.
2 jacks is  more important for me. You can just have one salvager, but you know you wont be able to play more than 2-3 turns without having problems with the silvers

-how to use the top decking effect with herald? (for example i buy with 6 an herald what to do??)
1/ I used it to topdeck count to trash faster
2/ i used to it to top deck terminal cards (i thinks i did that! or i could have done!), when you know you'll have herald in hand next turn. To increase the probability to have extra actions with your herald.
3/ and for sure to top deck herald...

-when to green?  No choice about that!!!!
Your opponent and cards are choosing for you!!
You spend your game being late and not having enough time. Just go for it when you've no choice
1/ 2 buys with 13, here i think you cant take 2 actions cards.... province no choice!
2/ to keep a decent gap with him!

-why i didnt choose urchin?
1/ i dont know if it really hurts my oponent
2/ i dont want mercenary, for me the trasher is count and i would need 2 urchins (-2 ligthouses)
3/ ligthouse seems better in jack engine and the +1 next turn. In a jack engine, i think you want the less money you can to buy things (for example jack native village forager) and make your drawer working

-the  5/2 opening game : wow what a confort!! i can breath during my game! and my god : i had the leadership!
and i think i made a mistake trashing too much my coppers (maybe i "lost" a turn)


In conclusion... engine very dificult to play!!!
With 4/3, i think you need good draws to win. For fun i would take it. in a tournament or league, if you play with player with same level... its seems a bit ambitious (or maybe not if you're Stef!)

I dont like to say one strategy is better than other. I think it depends of the level of the player, and the level of the oponent.
I got the feeling in a 5/2 opening, engine can be better to take if
1/ you're good  to make  engines
2/ your oponent is not so good and can make mistakes in jack big money (for example not taking duchy when he has to). Well for sure in this case, you can also go JOT big money!!

[dondon151]

I noticed that JW never went for the Herald overpay to topdeck Gold or Jack in the lategame. Engine looks really tough for me here because Herald engines choke hard on VP and playing catch-up with Duchy gains is difficult. It doesn't seem likely that the engine will even consistently double-Province, so it has to try to consistently Province/Duchy, which means that the money strategy can't get much of a head start.

[JW]

I noticed that JW never went for the Herald overpay to topdeck Gold or Jack in the lategame. Engine looks really tough for me here because Herald engines choke hard on VP and playing catch-up with Duchy gains is difficult. It doesn't seem likely that the engine will even consistently double-Province, so it has to try to consistently Province/Duchy, which means that the money strategy can't get much of a head start.

Good point, I was not paying sufficient attention to opportunities to do this. I don't think opportunities come along that often in this matchup because on $5 topdecking one card is not enough to ensure Province and you have to pass up a Duchy. But I could have probably won one game by going for Herald overpay for 2 golds to ensure getting a fifth Province (too hard for his deck to add Duchies to catch up), and if I had tracked my shuffle better I would have known I had a bad turn coming up and should definitely go for it.  Thanks!

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407482749982.txt#1-14

JW: turn 14
JW   duration Lighthouse
JW   plays Lighthouse
JW   plays JackOfAllTrades
JW   gains Silver
JW   discards Copper
JW   plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
JW   buys Duchy
JW   gains Duchy
JW   draws Duchy, Copper, Lighthouse, Province, Copper

[JW]

Very interesting to play this matches!

Playing 7 matches is not a lot but i would like to make a few comments on engine :

- the opening : i would say salvager/ligthouse or maybe salvager/silver.
I dont know clearly.

- count here is, for me,the key card.

I just calculated the chance that you hit $5 at least once on turns 3-4 with Salvager/Lighthouse vs. Salvager-Silver. Salvager-Lighthouse is about 67%. By comparison, Salvager-Silver is about 83.5% (Salvager can miss estate, so it is not as good as the standard double Silver chance of 91.2%: http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/21/opening-probabilities-part-ii/).

That's more of a difference than I would have anticipated. It suggests that Salvager-Silver may be better than Salvager-Lighthouse as it is hard to trash fast enough for the engine if you don't buy Count on the second shuffle. Lighthouse (or Fishing Village)-Silver, for comparison, is about 81% to hit $5 at least once on turns 3-4, though that is clearly a bad opening here.

[Davio]

Did you account for salvaging the Lighthouse instead of playing it?

[JW]

Did you account for salvaging the Lighthouse instead of playing it?

Nope! Didn't think about salvaging the silver either. Will update later.

[luser]

Monsieur X and I played 7 games of this, with me playing Jack-money (with support from Lighthouse, Venture, and Ironmonger- probably bought too many Ironmongers) and him playing the engine.

We concluded that Lighthouse-Salvager is a nice 3/4 opening for the engine, because it has a high chance to get Count on the second shuffle, trashes down quickly, and keeps action density high for Herald.

I won 2 of the 3 games where he opened Salvager/Lighthouse. I won 2 of the 3 games he opened other things on 3/4.  I lost the 1 game he opened 5/2 (Count/Lighthouse).

In order:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407481538587.txt
Mr. X opens Jack-Lighthouse.  I win.

Here overpaying herald on turn 13 could get likely province on turn 14

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407482071939.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Silver. I win.

perfect luck here

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407482749982.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Silver. He wins.

Here turn 14 topdeck two golds as previously said, otherwise on turn 15 I would buy salvager instead estate for chance to salvage duchy/province into province.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407483364734.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Lighthouse. He wins.

Here turn 12 gold should definitely be duchy, I would be tempted to get duchy already at turn 10, mostly because you are behind when you did not get province yet so taking chances may pay off but probably its just unlucky game.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407483878730.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Lighthouse. I win.

turn 13 topdeck venture it will likely be fifth province

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407484468014.txt
Mr. X opens Count-Lighthouse. He wins.

Turn 10 topdeck that gold jack instead second gold

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140808/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1407484989866.txt
Mr. X opens Salvager-Lighthouse. I win.

Also perfect luck here

In general you buy too much treasures that could be used more effectively in midgame

[JW]

I just calculated the chance that you hit $5 at least once on turns 3-4 with Salvager/Lighthouse vs. Salvager-Silver [assuming that you don't Salvage the Silver/Lighthouse]. Salvager-Lighthouse is about 67%. By comparison, Salvager-Silver is about 83.5% (Salvager can miss estate, so it is not as good as the standard double Silver chance of 91.2%: http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/21/opening-probabilities-part-ii/).

If you Salvage the Lighthouse/Silver to get to $5, if need be, as Davio pointed out I should consider, then the chance to hit $5 at least once on turns 3-4 increases for Lighthouse-Salvager.  Lighthouse-Salvager increases to about 75.5%. Silver-Salvager is unchanged at 83.5%.

The reason why Salvager-Silver opening is unchanged is that Salvaging the Silver can never cause a hand that wouldn't otherwise hit $5 to hit $5. But Lighthouse-Salvager-3 Copper hits $5 if you Salvage the Lighthouse, which makes a difference. 

In general you buy too much treasures that could be used more effectively in midgame

Thanks, good points.