Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: ironworks/trader  (Read 13618 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1855
    • View Profile
ironworks/trader
« on: July 30, 2014, 11:21:58 am »
0

This is several years old, but possibly very slight rewording. (There is no question in here. Just trying to word the rule for myself in light of other discussions on the board about the moving rules).

Trader is different from, say, watchtower, in that trader cancels gaining events. No other card works in this way.

Ironworks says "Gain a card... If it is...." If Ironworks is played on great hall, and trader is revealed, there is no gaining event. The "it" in Ironworks has no antecedent, because the gaining event triggered by Ironworks has been canceled. As a result, we have done as much of Ironworks as we can, and we ignore the rest.

Please no blue dog jokes.
Logged

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 11:43:26 am »
+5

Possession also cancels the gaining initiated by Ironworks.
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2014, 11:52:26 am »
0

Does Goko do this correctly? I know this was one of the rare things that Isotropic had wrong (though to be fair, not even Donald knew what the correct rule was at the time it was implemented on Iso).
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2014, 12:10:21 pm »
0

Possession also cancels the gaining initiated by Ironworks.
Why should that be?

If a card is gained by Ironworks, it does not matter, where it goes - relevant is only that it got gained.

Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 12:13:45 pm »
+5

Possession also cancels the gaining initiated by Ironworks.
Why should that be?

If a card is gained by Ironworks, it does not matter, where it goes - relevant is only that it got gained.
The card isn't gained by Ironworks, it's gained by Possession.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2014, 12:31:23 pm »
+2

Possession also cancels the gaining initiated by Ironworks.
Why should that be?

If a card is gained by Ironworks, it does not matter, where it goes - relevant is only that it got gained.
The card isn't gained by Ironworks, it's gained by Possession.

Exactly, just like how the Silver you get from revealing trader isn't gained by Ironworks. Possession doesn't say "when the player gains a card, move it to your discard pile". It says "would gain", and replaces their gain with a completely new and separate event. It so happens that the new and separate event is also a gain (like it is with Trader), but it's a gain that has nothing to do with Ironworks. As far as Ironworks knows, the new event could have just been draw a card or something.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GeoLib

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 965
  • Respect: +1265
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2014, 12:40:20 pm »
+1

Logged
"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2014, 12:51:50 pm »
0

Goko gets it wrong for possession: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140730/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1406738241545.txt

But correct for trader: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140730/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1406738336778.txt

For Trader it doesn't even show the original gain event

Thanks. Actually it doesn't show the original gain event for Possession either; it only shows the new gain:

Serf Bot   plays Ironworks
GeoLib   gains Forager
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1380
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 12:55:52 pm »
0

Wouldn't the player you're possessing draw a card if you make him gain something with ironworks? the way I see it is that he did gain it, but possession moved it from his discard pile to a separate pile, which you put into your discard pile at the end of the turn.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 12:58:43 pm »
+5

Wouldn't the player you're possessing draw a card if you make him gain something with ironworks? the way I see it is that he did gain it, but possession moved it from his discard pile to a separate pile, which you put into your discard pile at the end of the turn.

No, that's not what Possession says. No gain (from Ironworks) ever happened... Possession happens on "would gain" not on "gain", like Trader does. It doesn't react to the gain happening; it stops the gain from happening at all, and does something different instead. Also, the gain from Possession goes right into the player who's possessing's discard pile, like a normal gain. It does not get set aside and put into the discard pile later. This could matter if the possessed person plays Governor or Council Room or Soothsayer.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1380
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 01:06:49 pm »
0

Wouldn't the player you're possessing draw a card if you make him gain something with ironworks? the way I see it is that he did gain it, but possession moved it from his discard pile to a separate pile, which you put into your discard pile at the end of the turn.

No, that's not what Possession says. No gain (from Ironworks) ever happened... Possession happens on "would gain" not on "gain", like Trader does. It doesn't react to the gain happening; it stops the gain from happening at all, and does something different instead. Also, the gain from Possession goes right into the player who's possessing's discard pile, like a normal gain. It does not get set aside and put into the discard pile later. This could matter if the possessed person plays Governor or Council Room or Soothsayer.

I see. Makes sense.
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1855
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2014, 06:15:42 pm »
+2

Goko gets it wrong for possession: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140730/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1406738241545.txt

But correct for trader: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140730/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1406738336778.txt

For Trader it doesn't even show the original gain event

i like to imagine serfbot is human and only wants to know why you insisted on playing a game with possession and ironworks, then a game with trader and ironworks, but is too scared of looking like a noob to ask
Logged

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2014, 05:18:16 am »
0

Possession also cancels the gaining initiated by Ironworks.
Why should that be?

If a card is gained by Ironworks, it does not matter, where it goes - relevant is only that it got gained.
The card isn't gained by Ironworks, it's gained by Possession.

I could not understand that, so i did some searching here and on BGG about this topic: I concede to Donald's ruling, that the "it" of Ironworks does have an implicit assumption:

The card has to be gained by the player of Ironworks through Ironworks, to get the effects.

That is the crucial point, which explains the why and which i did not see in GendoIkari's explanations. The rest of his/her explanations is completely logical from there on.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:20:34 am by Dominionaer »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2014, 05:55:30 am »
+3

I could not understand that, so i did some searching here and on BGG about this topic: I concede to Donald's ruling, that the "it" of Ironworks does have an implicit assumption:

The card has to be gained by the player of Ironworks through Ironworks, to get the effects.
That's unnecessary, though. There is no way for any other player to gain a card through Ironworks.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2014, 06:54:59 am »
0

That's unnecessary, though.
Oh! Really? Why?

There is no way for any other player to gain a card through Ironworks.
Did i say so?

Or what is you point?
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2014, 07:12:40 am »
+2

That's unnecessary, though.
Oh! Really? Why?

There is no way for any other player to gain a card through Ironworks.
Did i say so?

Or what is you point?
It's unnecessary, because there is no way for any other player to gain a card through Ironworks. So saying that Ironworks has an implicit assumption that "The card has to be gained by the player of Ironworks through Ironworks" is like saying that Ironworks has an implicit assumption that "The card has to be a Dominion card".
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2014, 07:20:43 am »
0

Trader doesn't replace the card, it replaces the event, that's the most important thing I guess.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2014, 08:17:34 am »
0

It's unnecessary, because there is no way for any other player to gain a card through Ironworks.
It may be obvious for you, but repeating a statement instead of explaining why does not help.

... is like saying that Ironworks has an implicit assumption that "The card has to be a Dominion card".
It really does have. Because anything not explicitly stated on a card, but must be fullfilled, is the meaning of implicit.

OK, may be "implicit assumption" is a not so proper term. But the "implicit" got used by Donald himself:
Quote
Ironworks does not say "if you do," ... It's implicit, ...

I wanted to emphasize some reqirements in gaining a card through Ironworks. If only one is not fullfilled, than nobody gets the effect(s). And I wanted to emphasize, that it is not obvious on first sight, that the "If it is" has a strong binding to the "Gain". And that is the reason for the confusion, if one does not recognize that "implicit" if you gain that card. Which i did not in combination with possession.

I can make a longer story out of it: Donald could have written Ironworks so:

Name a card in supply. Try to gain that card. If you do succesfull gain that card, you get additional benefits depending on type(s) of that card : ...

Clarifying FAQ could be:
One does not gain that card succesfull, if that card gets exchanged before it leaves supply (for instance by revealing Trader) or somebody else gains that card instead (for instance in extra turn from Possession).
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2014, 08:28:46 am »
+1

It's unnecessary, because there is no way for any other player to gain a card through Ironworks.
It may be obvious for you, but repeating a statement instead of explaining why does not help.

... is like saying that Ironworks has an implicit assumption that "The card has to be a Dominion card".
It really does have. Because anything not explicitly stated on a card, but must be fullfilled, is the meaning of implicit.

OK, may be "implicit assumption" is a not so proper term. But the "implicit" got used by Donald himself:
Quote
Ironworks does not say "if you do," ... It's implicit, ...

I wanted to emphasize some reqirements in gaining a card through Ironworks. If only one is not fullfilled, than nobody gets the effect(s). And I wanted to emphasize, that it is not obvious on first sight, that the "If it is" has a strong binding to the "Gain". And that is the reason for the confusion, if one does not recognize that "implicit" if you gain that card. Which i did not in combination with possession.

I can make a longer story out of it: Donald could have written Ironworks so:

Name a card in supply. Try to gain that card. If you do succesfull gain that card, you get additional benefits depending on type(s) of that card : ...

Clarifying FAQ could be:
One does not gain that card succesfull, if that card gets exchanged before it leaves supply (for instance by revealing Trader) or somebody else gains that card instead (for instance in extra turn from Possession).
If I'm Possessing you and you play an Ironworks, as far as Ironworks knows, nobody gains a card. Possession replaces the "gain a card" with another effect, so Ironworks never gains any card. The other effect, by coincidence, happens to be the exact same card being gained by me, but Ironworks doesn't care about that. It could be the same card being gained by you, too, and Ironworks would still give no bonus.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2014, 08:59:23 am »
0

Trader doesn't replace the card, it replaces the event, that's the most important thing I guess.

I don't agree: The event is the same "If you would gain". It is so before and after revealing Trader, so no replacing events. But if i name Great Hall when playing Ironworks and then reveal Trader than it is a silver whoever gains it. How is that not replacing a card? Perhaps you prefer exchanging?

Logged

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2014, 09:03:43 am »
0

... so Ironworks never gains any card. ...

That is my central / prime point: why results that in no effect(s), not which other card  does it with whatever mechanic. And why is there confusion wether or who get the effect(s).

You can shout a thousand times "Possession does blablabla". It only repeats, when or where Possession interferes with the usual gain process. It does not clarify why Ironworks then gives not the effect(s). Which is because of the implicit If you gain that card ....
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2014, 09:07:32 am »
0

The effect of the event is the same (you gain a card), but it isn't the same event.

Ironworks' event it wants to react to is the "gain" it causes.
Trader catches this and asks you if you want to "instead, gain a Silver", which is a new event on its own.
Trader doesn't replace Ironworks' gained card (from Great Hall to Silver), it replaces Ironworks' "gain a card, if it is..." with its own "instead, gain a Silver".

It's like Band of Misfits, imagine rewriting part of the card.
The moment you reveal Trader to IW, this happens:

Ironworks normally reads: Gain a card costing up to 4 Coins. If it is an... Action card, +1 Action. Treasure card, +1 Coin. Victory card, +1 Card.
>> REVEAL TRADER <<
Ironworks now reads: (blank) The whole part about gaining and anything that happens from it is gone
And Trader just causes you to gain that Silver it promises.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 09:10:48 am by Davio »
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2014, 09:15:32 am »
+4

Trader doesn't replace the card, it replaces the event, that's the most important thing I guess.

I don't agree: The event is the same "If you would gain". It is so before and after revealing Trader, so no replacing events. But if i name Great Hall when playing Ironworks and then reveal Trader than it is a silver whoever gains it. How is that not replacing a card? Perhaps you prefer exchanging?
No, it's not the same event. Here's what happens:

1 — Player A is about to gain a Great Hall with Ironworks.
2 — He now "would gain a card". This trigger's Trader's reaction.
3 — Player A reveals Trader. This erases the gain effect that would have taken place due to Ironworks from existence and creates a new effect, Trader's "gain a Silver".
4 — Ironworks didn't gain any cards, so Player A doesn't gain a bonus.

That is my central / prime point: why results that in no effect(s), not which other card  does it with whatever mechanic. And why is there confusion wether or who get the effect(s).

You can shout a thousand times "Possession does blablabla". It only repeats, when or where Possession interferes with the usual gain process. It does not clarify why Ironworks then gives not the effect(s). Which is because of the implicit If you gain that card ....
Possession does not merely "interfere" with the usual gain process, it completely prevents it from happening. Then, it makes a new gain process of its own happen. This is separate from Ironworks. Ironworks gives no effects because it didn't gain anything; the "it" it's referring to does not exist.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7861
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2014, 10:03:26 am »
0

Hm, has Donald weighed in on the Possession/Ironworks thing?  I don't disagree with the interpretations here, but I feel like the "intended function" would be as Goko implements.  The idea is "The Possessed player plays a turn as normal except that you make all the decisions and gain all the cards", it's just hard to make that all technically sound.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: ironworks/trader
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 10:29:40 am »
0

Well, Possession just says "would gain" on the card, so I think it should work like Trader, relevant part of text on Possession: Any cards he would gain on that turn, you gain instead.

1. Possess
2. Play IW to gain a card
3. Before you actually gain it (and take any actions in response to gaining it), Possession's "would gain" takes over and just lets the possessing player gain the card instead at which point he can react with Watchtower or Trader

I think it's even more important for a card like Ill-Gotten Gains, which reads: When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse.

Imaging doing this on a possession turn:
(0. Play Highway)
1. Play IW to grab an IGG
>>> Now Possession's clause kicks in, giving the IGG instead to the possessor, the "gain" from IW is caught and replaced by Possession
2. Because the possessing player gains an IGG, the opponent (who is possessed) gains a Curse
>>> Possession kicks in again, giving the Curse instead to the possessor

So the gaining of the Curse by the possessor actually happens from trying to let the possessee gain that Curse and not as a reaction from the possessee gaining that IGG. The possessee never gains anything, so he can't do any "when-gain" stuff.

3. Okay, we're back to Ironworks and it doesn't have a clue what just happened, so it just fizzles.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.057 seconds with 21 queries.