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Author Topic: Dominion: Roots and Renewal  (Read 38475 times)

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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #175 on: July 05, 2015, 08:17:29 pm »
+1

Goons is not bad design because it requires you to buy cards to get points, which puts a time limit on the game.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #176 on: July 05, 2015, 08:29:26 pm »
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Goons is not bad design because it requires you to buy cards to get points, which puts a time limit on the game.

I hope you're not implying that I stated Goons was bad design.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #177 on: July 05, 2015, 08:41:18 pm »
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Goons is not bad design because it requires you to buy cards to get points, which puts a time limit on the game.

I hope you're not implying that I stated Goons was bad design.

No, I was talking to Horatio. Sorry about being off-topic.

Re: Orphanage
Perhaps making it cost $4 would make opening with it not too dominant. As-is, it looks like it is the correct first-turn buy in all cases with any good $5, and I think you want there to be interesting choices. If you had the silver go at the bottom of your deck instead, it would still be interesting to use as you would be guaranteed to have the silver on turn 3, so if you test it and it turns out to be dominant, you could try that change instead of the obvious $3-$4 change.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #178 on: July 05, 2015, 09:37:30 pm »
0

We just had a game with Orphanage costing $3 and we both opened with it. on a 3-4 opening you are guaranteed to hit $5 next turn but there are other cards that do that, too. The chance to hit $6 is only 20% and on most boards that's probably irrelevant, anyway. We only bought one additional Orphanage each because too many Orphanages wouldn't have helped our decks at all. So $3 seemed but we'll keep testing, of course.

Manor worked nicely so far. There were some nice combos with cards that care about hand size.

Fragasnap pointed out to me that Money Launderer might be too strong for $2 due to its flexibility. It can pseudo-trash all Coppers in your hand, give you +$2 and make Copper a good target for tfb, all of that non-terminally. So I should probably try it at $3 which is a little frustrating as it would leave me with only one card in the set costing $2 - Poacher. Although Realm Tax technically counts as the basic cost is $0*.

I barely played with Bastion in games with 3 or more players so I might have overestimated the card due to its power in 2-player games. Fragasnap suggested to limit its discard clause to 1 card if there is at least one empty supply pile so it scales better in multiplayer games.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #179 on: July 06, 2015, 05:34:33 am »
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Quote
Orphanage needs the "first time" clause because I consider a non-terminal and unconditional VP gainer bad design.

To make it clear, I meant to remove the whole VP gain.
I should be clearer sometimes.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2016, 05:18:12 pm »
+2

Hello everyone! This thread has been basically dead for months but meanwhile I kept working on Roots and Renewal, took out some cards, added others, and playtested a lot (big thanks to Asper for so many games I can't even count). Finally, I've done a complete overhaul of the opening post of this thread. Please check it out (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11563.msg406369#msg406369) to see the current state of the set with all the cards that are considered part of it. You may find older cards that are still playable in my second thread here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13625.msg512473#msg512473

Here's the most novel thing: I'm trying out a new mechanic for a few cards that use the so-called Prime token. The Prime token sits on an Action Supply pile (once it has been moved there) and affects all cards from that pile regardless of where they are. It increases their cost by $1. Now I know effects like this have been suggested countless times and we know all the potential confusion that comes with cost-reducers but hear me out!

The Prime token overrides all previous, current and future cost reductions of cards from the pile it is placed on and annuls them as long as it's staying there. As soon as the Prime token is removed from that pile, this effect is made void retroactively, meaning that all past and current cost reductions now apply to cards from that pile even if they are result of resolving cards that have been played when the Prime token was still there.

       

Quote
Revaluate, $5, Action
Move the Prime token to an Action Supply pile. Cards from that pile cost $1 more and their cost canít be reduced. Trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Quote
Capital, $6, Victory
Worth 2 VP for every 2 different costs of the Action cards in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, move the Prime token to an Action Supply pile. Cards from that pile cost $1 more and their cost canít be reduced.

Quote
Salesman, $2, Action/ Reserve
Move the Prime token an Action Supply pile. Cards from that pile cost $1 more and their cost canít be reduced. Put this on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this. If you do, all cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Revaluate has been tested a bunch and it seems to work out so far. The mid-turn cost changes allow some cute interactions with other trash-for-benefit cards although the main use is to turn itself into a Graverobber for a specific action card.

Capital has gotten a little testing but not enough to see if it's often enough a worthwhile strategy to go for. The way it counts points it can benefit a lot from its on-gain effect. But you might just pick one up to mess with the cost of a card your opponent is planning to do stuff with.

Salesman hasn't been tested, yet. Originally it was supposed to be a reaction but there were some issues in theory coming with using the Prime token when another player would buy a card that I couldn't solve. This reserve version has nothing to do with that but it should work out. I hope it will be fun, too.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 05:41:43 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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ConMan

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal - check out all the new stuff!
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2016, 07:20:47 pm »
0

Interesting. I'm not sure what more I can say about that.

It reminds me a little of an odd rule from the old Star Wars CCG, by Decipher. The rule was that if a variety of effects modified a number by increasing and decreasing it, then they all stacked. But if an effect set a value, then it was fixed and no longer affected by any other modifiers. So for example "reduce the card's cost by one" and "increase the card's cost by one" would cancel each other, but "the card's cost is now 2" and "increase the card's cost by one" resulted in a cost of 2, regardless of the order the effects occurred. I definitely prefer having it stated on the cards that the cost is now unchangeable, because you actually had to know that rule in SWCCG and actually notice when it took effect.
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal - check out all the new stuff!
« Reply #182 on: March 18, 2016, 07:00:50 am »
0

Cannot say anything about the cost increase mechanism but I like the Victoy part of Capital. It is a bit like Fairgrounds in terms of forcing you to buy stuff you would not want otherwise. It is fairly easy to reach 4VP but in order to get 6VP you will have to work a bit like with Fairgrounds. I think the main difference is that Capital is more board-dependent, i.e. when there are only Action cards that cost 2-5 with one additional "non-standard" cost [1,6,7 and 8] you have to settle for 4VP whereas with Fairgrounds you can technically always reach 6VP. If there are 6 different Action card prices  it is easier to hit 6VP whereas with Fairgrounds you gotta work harder.
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stechafle

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #183 on: March 26, 2016, 09:39:00 am »
+1

I play-tested 3 of these cards recently. All were an enjoyable addition to the game. Specifically:

Orphanage
I own Prosperity so always am excited by cards that use the VP tokens. I bought this with my first $3 to get the Silver on top of deck. Kingdom included Chapel so I managed to get 11 vp from this. I still lost the game by 6vp to my wife who skipped this so I think concerns about this being too automatic may be unwarranted.

Deposit
Fun card. Made for fast game due to quick Copper clearing. Might need to cost $4. With village/throne room, very likely to play Gold for $6.

Realm Tax
We put this in a kingdom with Market and Peddler to let it shine. I love the tension the card creates between buying it for cheap when it's not worth much to you and waiting until you can play at least 4 Action cards in a turn at which point it is more expensive to buy but more useful to you.

Thanks again for your creativity!
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #184 on: March 27, 2016, 07:50:23 am »
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Although I currently don't find the time to design and test cards myself, I am still happy to see that other people are enjoying my cards and I will continue to read all the feedback. Thank you for testing! :)
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #185 on: March 27, 2016, 04:06:09 pm »
0

Did Money Launderer get cut?  I was looking for the most recent version of it and didn't find it here or your 'CL's other cards' thread.
I've played at least one game with it a while back. It seemed okay, but not great. I wanted to give it another try because I like the idea of it, so I came to make sure I had the most recent version.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #186 on: March 27, 2016, 04:14:31 pm »
+1

Yes, Money Launderer got cut from the set because it mostly filled the same design space as Deposit but Deposit is a generally more useful and flexible and I like it more. Money Launderer's Copper cost-increase didn't really go anywhere. The potential combos for this were way too slow. But I'm gonna upload ML in my other thread because it's still an okay card as-is even without the effect below the line.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #187 on: March 27, 2016, 04:27:58 pm »
0

Yes, Money Launderer got cut from the set because it mostly filled the same design space as Deposit but Deposit is a generally more useful and flexible and I like it more. Money Launderer's Copper cost-increase didn't really go anywhere. The potential combos for this were way too slow. But I'm gonna upload ML in my other thread because it's still an okay card as-is even without the effect below the line.
The cost increase on copper was my favorite part of the card. I did a card with a similar concept (Collectables) and it works pretty well. Seems like it should work on Money Launderer too.

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #188 on: July 03, 2016, 01:37:44 am »
0

Would deposit be too different than your original intentions as an Action-Treasure similar to crown? Something like:
Quote
+1 buy
If this is played during your action phase, you may put any number of treasures from your hand onto your deposit mat. If this is played during your buy phase, you may play a treasure from your deposit mat twice.
It avoids the playing treasures in your action phase shenanigans, but also makes it possible to stack. Admittedly, that doesn't really do anything unless you want to save it for a future turn, but it is something to consider. Also, with it's current wording, Depositing crown turns deposit  into a throned throne with a +buy. Don't know if that's too powerful or not, but the alternate option suggested would avoid that as well.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 01:39:04 am by Doom_Shark »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #189 on: July 03, 2016, 05:06:29 am »
0

Would deposit be too different than your original intentions as an Action-Treasure similar to crown? Something like:
Quote
+1 buy
If this is played during your action phase, you may put any number of treasures from your hand onto your deposit mat. If this is played during your buy phase, you may play a treasure from your deposit mat twice.
It avoids the playing treasures in your action phase shenanigans, but also makes it possible to stack. Admittedly, that doesn't really do anything unless you want to save it for a future turn, but it is something to consider. Also, with it's current wording, Depositing crown turns deposit  into a throned throne with a +buy. Don't know if that's too powerful or not, but the alternate option suggested would avoid that as well.

That would make Deposit stronger in the first place (since playing it during your buy phase wouldn't cost an action). That might still be okay at $4, though. Otherwise it's a pretty slow card. It would still be slow as a pseudo-trasher but much stronger as payload. I actually like that currently it can play Treausres during your action phase but Provisioner also does that and there it synergises with the rest of the card. Crown's existence is probably a good reason to make Deposit an Action-Treasure to avoid confusion with Crown played via Deposit during your Action phase. I will think about it.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #190 on: August 04, 2016, 11:58:06 am »
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I have updated the OP yet again. Here's what's new:

           

Bootlegger is now part of this set to fill the vacant $2-slot as it fits thematically. It still needs more testing, though. It could previously be seen in my other cards thread (link in my signature).

Bog Village is a very old card that was part of Roots and Renewal in its early day, then out for a long time. Now it's back to replace Manor as a Village which I don't like that much anymore since Inheritance came around. I think Bog Village has a lot of unexplored potential and I want to give it another shot in this set which is where it really belongs.

Orphanage existed for a while as a $3 version that didn't give +1 Card but with the Silver bonus felt a touch too good in the opening. I'm going to test this version because I hope it makes the decision when to buy Orphanage less trivial while keeping it a good enough card in general.

Riverside was previously named Capital and had a different picture. It remained functionally the same card, though.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 12:00:44 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #191 on: August 04, 2016, 01:36:54 pm »
+1

I really like riverside. I think the interesting thing about it is the improtance of getting the last one, which is just as important as winning the split, if not more so. The reason being that by gaining the last one, you can either:
1) Add another cost tier to your deck, or
2) Remove a cost tier from your opponent's deck.
Of course, the second option only works if there is a cost teir that they only bought one card from, like their only $3 cards being villages, AND they have cards from the next tier. Without glancing back at the OP, this is probably my favorite card in the set.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #192 on: August 04, 2016, 01:43:10 pm »
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Wording suggestion on Riverside:

"Worth 2 vp for every 2 differently cost action cards in your deck."

Also, it doesn't seem that "worth 2 for every 2" is really different enough from "worth 1 for every"...
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #193 on: August 04, 2016, 02:43:29 pm »
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Wording suggestion on Riverside:

"Worth 2 vp for every 2 differently cost action cards in your deck."

Also, it doesn't seem that "worth 2 for every 2" is really different enough from "worth 1 for every"...

I think the difference is significant enough as it can be worth 4VP or 6VP but not 5VP. This makes the decision where to put the Prime token more important than otherwise. Your suggested wording doesn't seem clear enough to me. Looking at Keep, "Worth 2VP per 2 differently cost action cards you have a copy of" seems legit.
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #194 on: August 04, 2016, 05:36:40 pm »
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Orphanage seems to be too strong. Even if you don't need a village you want some 'once per turn cantrip VP token gainers' in your deck. And with an on-gain topdecked Silver on top of it will very often be an opening autobuy.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 05:49:29 pm by tristan »
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #195 on: August 04, 2016, 05:44:20 pm »
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Orphanage seems to be too strong. Even if you don't need a village you want some 'once per turn cantrip VP token gainers' in your deck. And with an on-gain topdecked Silver on top of it will very often be an opening autobuy.

Do you think this version would be fine? Or should it cost $4 without the +card?

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #196 on: August 04, 2016, 05:52:51 pm »
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Orphanage seems to be too strong. Even if you don't need a village you want some 'once per turn cantrip VP token gainers' in your deck. And with an on-gain topdecked Silver on top of it will very often be an opening autobuy.

Do you think this version would be fine? Or should it cost $4 without the +card?


I have a hard time judging this. On the first glance it seems better than Silver but you might not want that many Necros with a small bonus in your deck. For example I wouldn't know if I should buy this in a 3/4 opening.

About Bootleger, I like it. On play it is a tad better than Stonemason (and you might very well just buy it for 2; unlike Stonemason the strength of its on play effect matches its price) but unlike with Stonemason you run a serious risk of e.g. getting a bad 5$ if you pay 7 for it.
Perhaps you might wanna consider restricting it to Kingdom Supply or Action cards (unless you intended it to only work well if you overpay 3,4 or 6)? Otherwise the other player will always name Duchy if you overpay 5.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #197 on: August 04, 2016, 07:47:48 pm »
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About Bootleger, I like it. On play it is a tad better than Stonemason (and you might very well just buy it for 2; unlike Stonemason the strength of its on play effect matches its price) but unlike with Stonemason you run a serious risk of e.g. getting a bad 5$ if you pay 7 for it.
Perhaps you might wanna consider restricting it to Kingdom Supply or Action cards (unless you intended it to only work well if you overpay 3,4 or 6)? Otherwise the other player will always name Duchy if you overpay 5.

That's intended. Since the player buying Bootlegger usually doesn't have any influence on which two cards are chosen for him (unless there are only two different cards of the appropriate cost) I don't think other players naming Duchy and something else would be an issue as the buying player can always gain the other card that isn't the Duchy.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #198 on: August 04, 2016, 08:04:36 pm »
+1

I really like Bootlegger. It's the perfect card to pick up if you notice you're producing too much money with too little +Buy. Works nice on Province, Gold and Potion costs, but should be fine for $5s, too. If there really is a $5 kingdom card you really don't want at all, you can just pick up Bootlegger earlier.

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #199 on: August 04, 2016, 08:08:34 pm »
0

I like Bootlegger and I like the change to Orphanage. I don't think being a village that's also worth getting in BM makes it too strong.
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