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Author Topic: Dominion: Roots and Renewal  (Read 27156 times)

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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #225 on: November 01, 2017, 07:32:09 pm »
+4

Here are a few more ideas I came up with and didn't get to playtest, yet. I tend to miss some important flaws when designing cards so I'll take any feedback into account before mocking these up.

Quote
Building Crane X, $3<2>, Action
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Return this to the Supply. Building Cranes cost $3 less this turn, but not less than $0<2>.
Building Crane costs $5 and when you return it, it costs $2 less. Depending on the +Buy situation in the Kingdom, the power of this effect ranged from non-relevant to absurd. Sometimes you could just drain the BC pile (costing $0) with tons of buys and set up a megaturn. I'm considering giving BC a coin-debt-hybrid cost so that you can still drain the pile with buys but you can never get them for free. You'd always have to pay at least <2> per Crane on your next turn. If that's too cheap I could adjust it to <3>. How do you like it? Can the wording on BCX be better?

Quote
Smeltery, $4, Action
Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Return up to 3 cards with the same name from the trash to the Supply. +$1 per card you returned.
Games using this canít end on 3 empty piles unless the trash is empty.
I had this idea for a bottom part (which probably countless people had before) and came up with a nifty top to work with it. Either it leads to interesting games, or itís mostly annoying, weíll see. It might also be too strong.

Quote
Gem, $4, Action/ Treasure
If itís your Action phase, +2 Cards. If itís your Buy phase, +$2.
While this is in play, if you played exactly 4 cards, return this to your hand.
Inspired by Asperís Jeweller (which didnít work out) and Road, this card is very weak when played once but if you put some work into it, can boost your turn multiple times. Alternatively, it could go back to your hand on different triggers depending on your current phase (e.g. 2 actions in your Action phase and 3 Coppers in your Buy phase).

Quote
Recruiter, $4, Action/ Looter/ Gathering
+2 Actions. You may gain a card costing up to 5. If you do, return this to the Supply and add 1 VP to the Recruiter/Crusade Supply pile.
When you buy this, if there are any VP on the Recruiter/Crusade Supply pile, take them, instead of gaining this.
Split pile
Crusade, $5, Action/ Attack/ Looter/ Gathering
+2 Cards. Each other player gains a Ruins. Add 2 VP to the Recruiter/Crusade Supply pile.
I wanted another Gathering pile like Temple from which you take the VP on-gain but of course different from Temple in all other ways. Itís got the following premises (i.e. things I want in its concept):
ē   Itís a Gathering split pile
ē   The top card returns to the Supply to block the bottom card
ē   The bottom card adds more VP to the pile than the top card
ē   One of the two cards can gain cards to circumvent the VP-taking (in case youíd rather have the card)
So far, Iím not very pleased with the whole thing. It seems clunky but perhaps you can see what Iím going for. Iíll keep thinking about it.

Quote
Bootlegger 2, $3, Action
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing up to $2 to the Supply. When you gain a 2nd card in one of your turns, also gain a card from that pile. When you trash a card from that pile, return it to the Supply.
Just another Supply-related thing I want to try out. It floods your deck with a cheap card you may or may not want. Big Money resists it. I have no idea if thatís actually an intriguing concept.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #226 on: November 01, 2017, 08:26:48 pm »
+2

Building Crane is the perfect fit for a Heirloom that gives +1 Buy. Maybe Nocturne already has one of those? In that case, you could just let Building Crane use that official Heirloom.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #227 on: November 01, 2017, 08:55:39 pm »
+1

Building Crane is the perfect fit for a Heirloom that gives +1 Buy. Maybe Nocturne already has one of those? In that case, you could just let Building Crane use that official Heirloom.

I really need to hug you some time.
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navical

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #228 on: November 02, 2017, 04:19:14 am »
+1


Quote
Gem, $4, Action/ Treasure
If itís your Action phase, +2 Cards. If itís your Buy phase, +$2.
While this is in play, if you played exactly 4 cards, return this to your hand.
Inspired by Asperís Jeweller (which didnít work out) and Road, this card is very weak when played once but if you put some work into it, can boost your turn multiple times. Alternatively, it could go back to your hand on different triggers depending on your current phase (e.g. 2 actions in your Action phase and 3 Coppers in your Buy phase).

Just to check how Gem is meant to work. Suppose:

I play Village
I play Gem
I play Village
I play Gem
-> at this point, do both Gems go back into my hand?
Now I play Gem again. This is the 5th card I've played this turn, so it - and any future Gems I play - won't return to my hand again. Correct?
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josh56

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #229 on: November 02, 2017, 10:13:04 am »
+2

Quote
Gem, $4, Action/ Treasure
If itís your Action phase, +2 Cards. If itís your Buy phase, +$2.
While this is in play, if you played exactly 4 cards, return this to your hand.
Inspired by Asperís Jeweller (which didnít work out) and Road, this card is very weak when played once but if you put some work into it, can boost your turn multiple times. Alternatively, it could go back to your hand on different triggers depending on your current phase (e.g. 2 actions in your Action phase and 3 Coppers in your Buy phase).
You are right that Gem is a weak Action card which only works well if you have a decent village density. But if you view it as Silver+ for $4 it seems pretty good.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #230 on: November 02, 2017, 04:04:27 pm »
0

Just to check how Gem is meant to work. Suppose:

I play Village
I play Gem
I play Village
I play Gem
-> at this point, do both Gems go back into my hand?
Now I play Gem again. This is the 5th card I've played this turn, so it - and any future Gems I play - won't return to my hand again. Correct?
No, it's different. Gem doesn't count cards in play but cards you played, while it's in play. Let me supplement your example:

I play, in this order: Village A, Gem A, Village B, Gem B.
At this point, no Gem returns to my hand because I only played 3 cards while Gem A was in play and 0 cards while Gem B was in play.

After the original 4 cards, I continue to play: Village C, Gem A, Smithy, ending my Action phase. Then, in my Buy phase, Copper, Gem B, Copper, Gem A, Copper.
Gem A returns the first time after Village C, since at this point I played exactly 4 cards while Gem A was in play. I then play Gem A again, Smithy and Copper, causing Gem B to return. I play Gem B again (this time as a Silver) and Copper, which makes Gem A return yet again so I can play it a third time (as a Silver).

You are right that Gem is a weak Action card which only works well if you have a decent village density. But if you view it as Silver+ for $4 it seems pretty good.
Now that I think about it again, in the above example it doesn't seem hard at all to return Gem to your hand at least once per turn. And it compares very favourably to Royal Seal. Royal Seal sucks but anyway Gem should probably cost $5.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #231 on: November 02, 2017, 05:42:54 pm »
+1

Just to check how Gem is meant to work. Suppose:

I play Village
I play Gem
I play Village
I play Gem
-> at this point, do both Gems go back into my hand?
Now I play Gem again. This is the 5th card I've played this turn, so it - and any future Gems I play - won't return to my hand again. Correct?
No, it's different. Gem doesn't count cards in play but cards you played, while it's in play. Let me supplement your example:

I play, in this order: Village A, Gem A, Village B, Gem B.
At this point, no Gem returns to my hand because I only played 3 cards while Gem A was in play and 0 cards while Gem B was in play.

After the original 4 cards, I continue to play: Village C, Gem A, Smithy, ending my Action phase. Then, in my Buy phase, Copper, Gem B, Copper, Gem A, Copper.
Gem A returns the first time after Village C, since at this point I played exactly 4 cards while Gem A was in play. I then play Gem A again, Smithy and Copper, causing Gem B to return. I play Gem B again (this time as a Silver) and Copper, which makes Gem A return yet again so I can play it a third time (as a Silver).

You are right that Gem is a weak Action card which only works well if you have a decent village density. But if you view it as Silver+ for $4 it seems pretty good.
Now that I think about it again, in the above example it doesn't seem hard at all to return Gem to your hand at least once per turn. And it compares very favourably to Royal Seal. Royal Seal sucks but anyway Gem should probably cost $5.

If this is how you want it to work I think you need to say something like "While this is in play, if you have played 4 more cards return it to your hand." Otherwise the way you worded it works like how navical interpreted it, because it can remember cards played before it.
Aside from that, doesn't this give you infinite money with 5 Gems? It doesn't seem too difficult to set that up in a 2 player game at least.

Actually I might as well comment on some other cards while I'm here!

Quote
Building Crane X, $3<2>, Action
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Return this to the Supply. Building Cranes cost $3 less this turn, but not less than $0<2>.

I guess the most similar card to this is Encampment? +3 cards +1 action is better than +2 cards +2 actions but there's no way to keep these and the first one is expensive so it might be balanced? Maybe having access to 10 of these makes it too easy to megaturn? Hard to say without playing with it myself. Actually that gives me the idea of a split pile where the top card makes the bottom one cheaper, that could be cool. 

Quote
Smeltery, $4, Action
Trash up to 3 cards from your hand. Return up to 3 cards with the same name from the trash to the Supply. +$1 per card you returned.
Games using this canít end on 3 empty piles unless the trash is empty.

I like the below the line effect quite a lot but the top part seems way too good for $4. Such a fast and flexible trasher shouldn't give so much economy and cost less than $5, but it could be good at 5.

Quote
Recruiter, $4, Action/ Looter/ Gathering
+2 Actions. You may gain a card costing up to 5. If you do, return this to the Supply and add 1 VP to the Recruiter/Crusade Supply pile.
When you buy this, if there are any VP on the Recruiter/Crusade Supply pile, take them, instead of gaining this.
Split pile
Crusade, $5, Action/ Attack/ Looter/ Gathering
+2 Cards. Each other player gains a Ruins. Add 2 VP to the Recruiter/Crusade Supply pile.

So it's a one shot better than University/ Necropolis-Feast on top and a bad Cultist on bottom, with all this gathering business going on too. Actually I think with +1 card token you can generate infinite vp with recruiter. Draw the deck and have 2 of these and then you can draw the one you gain and keep adding vp to the pile. Well a no recruiter clause can prevent that, but then it seems almost impossible to get to the Crusades. Maybe only crusade should add vp to the pile then?   

Quote
Bootlegger 2, $3, Action
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing up to $2 to the Supply. When you gain a 2nd card in one of your turns, also gain a card from that pile. When you trash a card from that pile, return it to the Supply.

The below the line is cool but I think you want the top part to interact with it in some way, obviously you want the +buy or gaining but maybe something that cares about $2 costs or that specific pile. Some kind of Will-O'-Wisp Chariot Race mashup perhaps? Otherwise the below the line feels a bit tacked on to me.

Well I think you have a lot of great card ideas here! I enjoyed looking through these and I'll have to comment on your other cards at some point too!
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #232 on: November 02, 2017, 07:05:34 pm »
+1

Quote
Reconvert, $4, Action/ Reaction
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card; +1 Action; or +$1. You get your choice for each $1 the trashed card costs.
When you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to return that card to the Supply.
I've tried returning to the Supply as an alternative to trashing, and I don't feel it works as most of the time it needlessly prolongs the game. Here though you can make a never-ending golden deck that could quite likely be optimal: Dominate, return Provinces to the Supply with e.g. Salvager, repeat.

That's a good thing because such a niche reaction struggles to find space for application. It should be pretty difficult to make a golden deck with it but when you do it, it should be pretty awesome. I personally like golden decks.
And I agree golden decks are good. I admit I wasn't very clear, but the main thing I'd like to mention is how most cards that return other cards to the supply open up the problem of endless VP situations. The scenario I give with Reconvert never brings the game towards its end, and because it generates 9VP per turn it's likely that both players would go for doing it.
Smeltery can make all the on-gain VP methods endless; Emporium, Temple, Goons, Farmers Market, Wild Hunt etc. if you return and re-buy them each turn (or what you bought for Goons, Wild Hunt Estates).
Bootlegger 2 can do the same with your own Sojourner in Seasons, I believe.

Cards that return themselves to the supply can avoid this problem, and Building Crane X I like. Unless it proves too automatic with all sources of +buy.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #233 on: November 02, 2017, 08:20:31 pm »
+1

Thanks for your feedback and suggestions! Aquila and Gazbag, you are making good points. Of course I want to avoid loopholes and methods to gain infinite VP but I tend to overlook such possibilities so I appreciate other people pointing me to it.

Gazbag gave me this idea for a Split pile to make Building Crane easier to access but megaturns harder to pull off (although small quatities of these cards boost you by a lot):
Quote
Draft Horses, $3, Action
+2 Cards. +1 Action. +1 Buy. +$1. Return this to the Supply.
Split pile
Building Crane, $5, Action
You may reveal an Action card costing $2 or $3 from your hand. Play it three times. If this is the first time you played a Building Crane this turn, all copies of the revealed card cost $0 this turn.

You were both right in that Smeltery would be too powerful and too easily enable infinite VP generation. Here's a massive nerf that still conveys the central concept of emptying the trash to prevent a 3-pile ending but makes VP loops considerably more difficult:
Quote
Smeltery 2, $3, Action
+$1. Choose one: Trash up to 2 cards from your hand; or trash this and return up to 5 cards from the trash to the Supply.
Games using this canít end on 3 empty piles unless the trash is empty.

And finally, following Gazbags suggestion, Gem might be fine like this:
Quote
Gem, $5, Action/ Treasure
If itís your Action phase, +2 Cards. If itís your Buy phase, +$2.
While this is in play, if you played exactly 3 more cards other than Gem, return this to your hand.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #234 on: November 02, 2017, 08:24:39 pm »
+1

I feel like Draft Horses/Building Crane needs more thematic tie-in for a split pile.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #235 on: November 03, 2017, 01:10:33 pm »
+1

I feel like Draft Horses/Building Crane needs more thematic tie-in for a split pile.

I agree, maybe the top card could be the crane and the bottom whatever the crane is building?
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #236 on: November 03, 2017, 01:20:18 pm »
0

I feel like Draft Horses/Building Crane needs more thematic tie-in for a split pile.

I agree, maybe the top card could be the crane and the bottom whatever the crane is building?

Are you just talking about the names of the two cards and not about mechanical synergy, because I think they got the latter?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 01:21:25 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #237 on: November 03, 2017, 01:50:43 pm »
0

I feel like Draft Horses/Building Crane needs more thematic tie-in for a split pile.
I agree, maybe the top card could be the crane and the bottom whatever the crane is building?
Are you just talking about the names of the two cards and not about mechanical synergy, because I think they got the latter?

Yeah, the names. There is some thematic tie-in if the art is like Draft Horses hauling stones that the cranes use, but you'd need good art.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #238 on: November 03, 2017, 01:55:29 pm »
0

I feel like Draft Horses/Building Crane needs more thematic tie-in for a split pile.

I agree, maybe the top card could be the crane and the bottom whatever the crane is building?

Are you just talking about the names of the two cards and not about mechanical synergy, because I think they got the latter?

I was just talking about the names yeah, the mechanical synergy is there for me. Maybe even too much synergy, I wouldn't be surprised if Craning Draft Horses is too strong.  Can't say for sure without testing it though, it could be good!
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #239 on: November 06, 2017, 05:20:43 pm »
+3

I feel like Draft Horses/Building Crane needs more thematic tie-in for a split pile.

I agree, maybe the top card could be the crane and the bottom whatever the crane is building?

Are you just talking about the names of the two cards and not about mechanical synergy, because I think they got the latter?

I was just talking about the names yeah, the mechanical synergy is there for me. Maybe even too much synergy, I wouldn't be surprised if Craning Draft Horses is too strong.  Can't say for sure without testing it though, it could be good!
You may be right and I'll probably reword those two cards yet again because I'm not quite pleased with the idea.
Actually, I'm planning to revise my set even harder, and get rid of all cards that feel redundant now so many new cards released in the last 2 years (including the 2nd edition cards).

There are two cards in R&R that I will tackle today that are very likely to be cut from the set indefinitely, and I'll quickly explain why:

   

Back when Black Market was the only card that allowed to play treasures during your action phase, Provisioner seemed cute because it combined it with draw-to-X which is really effective. Such a strong card doesn't warrant the on-gain Copper-Save mechanic but I didn't know where else to put it. Now I know, but let's talk about Bastion first.
Bastion feels very similar to Poacher, even though the former quite stronger. It's also pretty boring which is okay for a $4-card but not a $6-card, at least that's how I feel.
Today I had this idea; why not combine discard-per-empty-supply-pile with draw-to-X? It's a natural fit and there's no other card that does it. I made X really low and gave it +1 Action because my set needed $3-cards (which I struggle to come up with good concepts for) and it needed cantrips. The new Provisioner fulfils both requirements. I made it pruposefully weak so the on-gain Copper-Save from the old Provisioner is warranted and because I think situational cards are more fun when you find a board where they shine.

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #240 on: November 07, 2017, 12:31:25 am »
0

The good thing about the old provisioner is that the wording and mechanics are a lot clearer than Storyteller. Every time I introduce Storyteller to a new player IRL (and often the 2nd and 3rd times they play with it), they read the card and then have to ask for an explanation of what it does.

I mostly like the new provisioner except I don't like how the bottom is an antisynergy to the top. You could say "When you gain this, you may set aside a copper you have in play, and play it in your next buy phase." That would make it stronger, but I think that's okay. I guess some people wouldn't like the weirdness of an on-gain duration effect though.

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #241 on: November 07, 2017, 09:13:12 am »
0

The good thing about the old provisioner is that the wording and mechanics are a lot clearer than Storyteller. Every time I introduce Storyteller to a new player IRL (and often the 2nd and 3rd times they play with it), they read the card and then have to ask for an explanation of what it does.

I mostly like the new provisioner except I don't like how the bottom is an antisynergy to the top. You could say "When you gain this, you may set aside a copper you have in play, and play it in your next buy phase." That would make it stronger, but I think that's okay. I guess some people wouldn't like the weirdness of an on-gain duration effect though.

I did this on purpose for two reasons: I actually think that the on-gain effect is so powerful in the early, while being so cheap, that is has to come with an on-play ability that is weak at first, as well as anti-synergistic later. The latter is to counteract the fact that in some decks, new Provisioner can be a super-lab but you really gotta thin those Coppers aggressively. This way, it's supposed to be strong but balanced in early-game and mid-game.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #242 on: November 10, 2017, 04:08:54 am »
+1

The Travellers

I made minor tweaks to my travellers:
  • Petty Lord cost reduced from $3 to $2 so you can always open with it, in concordance with the original travellers. It's not strictly better than Page, as exchanging Petty Lord is tied to conditions
  • Robber Knight now always gives you Silver, regardless of how much you trashed. Also, you only ever need one empty supply pile to exchange it, regardless of player number. This makes the card simpler and less wordy. I'm not sure whether it needs the looter type or if it's sufficient that Petty Lord as the relevant kingdom card has it, so you include Ruins in the setup
  • Protector now gives you coin based on card cost (instead of names) to tie in better with the set's theme, the Prime token in particular. This makes it much weaker agains Ruins junking but stronger in engines that generate large hands
  • Warlord doesn't trash from the Supply anymore but moves the Prime token instead. The attack remains functionally unchanged but requires fewer words as well
  • Savoir remains unchanged. It could use the Prime token as well (instead of naming a card) but then you couldn't pick up treasures and, more importantly, the upgrades from Petty Lord with it. I'm still considering this change for thematic reasons, but only if a nerf is necessary


   
   

Quote
Petty Lord, $2, Action/ Looter/ Traveller
+1 Action. +$1. You may return a non-Victory card from the trash to the Supply.
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose one: if there is at least 1 Victory card per player in the trash, exchange this for a Protector; or, if you have at least 2 cards in hand, exchange this for a Robber Knight.

Quote
Robber Knight, $5*, Action/ Attack/ Looter/ Traveller
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand. Gain a Silver. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you discard this from play, if there are one or more empty Supply piles, you may exchange this for a Warlord. (This is not in the Supply.)

Quote
Protector, $5*, Action/ Traveller
Reveal your hand. +$1 per differently cost card revealed.
When you discard this from play, if there are at least 2 Ruins per player in the trash, you may exchange it for a Savior. (This is not in the Supply.)

Quote
Warlord, $7*, Action/ Attack
+4 Cards. Move the Prime token to an Action Supply pile. Each other player with 5 or more cards in their hand discards a card from that pile (or reveals a hand no such cards). (This is not in the Supply.)

Quote
Savior, $7*, Action
+1 Action. Do this twice: Name a card and reveal cards from your deck until you reveal the named card, then put it into your hand and discard the rest. (This is not in the Supply.)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 04:13:16 am by Co0kieL0rd »
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #243 on: November 10, 2017, 07:35:46 am »
0

If you're changing the travellers can you change them to the right template? I hate the current arrow.

Also Warlord can just say (or reveals they can't). That should save you a line.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #244 on: November 10, 2017, 04:23:32 pm »
+2

Also Warlord can just say (or reveals they can't). That should save you a line.

Thanks for the hint. I missed that in the 2nd edition rephrasings.

If you're changing the travellers can you change them to the right template? I hate the current arrow.

I'm sorry if I have offended your aesthetic sensation. If you could kindly pass me the right template, I'll gladly change it for you.
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal
« Reply #245 on: November 10, 2017, 04:52:17 pm »
+3

If you're changing the travellers can you change them to the right template? I hate the current arrow.

Hey man, that was what it looked like in development. I think it's less jarring than the actual printed arrow, but of course I'm biased. And jarring is probably good, since it's meant to be a reminder.
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