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Author Topic: Dominion: Roots and Renewal  (Read 40203 times)

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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2015, 08:06:58 pm »
+1

Hey, I just did the first playtest for Robber Knight and... it's pretty insane. The Ruins aren't nearly a harsh enough penalty for the easy Golds you gain. I want to keep Robber Knight cheap, though, so you can decently overpay for it. So I'm just gonna throw out a few ideas to nerf the card. What do you think about them? (The overpay part remains the same.)

Cost: $3
+2 Actions. Gain a Ruins. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, +1 Card.

Cost: $3
+2 Actions. Gain a Ruins. You may discard a card. If you do, gain a Gold.

Cost: $3
+2 Actions. Gain a Gold. Gain a Ruins. If you don't, discard 2 cards.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2015, 08:28:30 pm »
+2

If the only problem is that the Ruins run out, I'd do:

Cost: $3
+2 Actions. Gain a Ruins. If you do, gain a Gold.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2015, 08:30:45 pm »
0

If the only problem is that the Ruins run out, I'd do:

Cost: $3
+2 Actions. Gain a Ruins. If you do, gain a Gold.

The problem is rather that a Gold in your deck seems to outweigh the negative impact of a Ruins in your deck. Also, I don't want Robber Knight to be almost useless once the Ruins run out.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2015, 08:42:02 pm »
0

The problem is rather that a Gold in your deck seems to outweigh the negative impact of a Ruins in your deck. Also, I don't want Robber Knight to be almost useless once the Ruins run out.

Could it be a Curse instead?

How about, "If you did, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver"?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2015, 09:09:31 pm »
0

You could also change what the condition restricts:

Gain a Gold. Gain a Ruins. If you do: +2 actions

Not exactly elegant, but i think it should be somewhere between LastFootnote's first fix and the original, power wise.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2015, 03:36:52 pm »
0

The problem is rather that a Gold in your deck seems to outweigh the negative impact of a Ruins in your deck. Also, I don't want Robber Knight to be almost useless once the Ruins run out.

Could it be a Curse instead?

How about, "If you did, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver"?

You could also change what the condition restricts:

Gain a Gold. Gain a Ruins. If you do: +2 actions

Not exactly elegant, but i think it should be somewhere between LastFootnote's first fix and the original, power wise.

Thanks for your suggestions! I'm going to respond to the suggestions of both of you by firstly explaining what kind of card I want:
A Village, and the +2 Actions should not be conditional on something that runs out.
I don't want another Silver gainer (there's Provisioner), and it's also not Robber Knight's desired role.
I don't want another Curser, especially not one that curses the card player (Juggler does that). PS: In fact, I'm considering taking out Demagogue and perhaps salvage one of its effects for another card).
Current Robber Knight has a short-term benefit (Actions) and a long-term benefit (Gold) but only a long-term penalty (Ruins), and it should have a short-term penalty as well. So I'm in most favour of this version:

Quote
Cost: $3+
+2 Actions. Gain a Ruins. You may discard a card. If you do, gain a Gold. | When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, you may look through your discard pile and trash a card from it.
The short-term penalty (discard 1) is small and also adds flexibility in case you just want a Village at a point. Which is why I also consider adjusting the cost to $4 (instead of $3) but that greatly depends on how strong the overpay option really is, especially compared to Doctor's. What do you think?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 09:59:22 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2015, 03:46:48 pm »
+2

I think you should definitely try it as-is (gain a Gold and a Ruins) at $4. One of the key reasons I like Robber Knight is that it's pretty simple (on-play). I think the targeted trashing is sufficiently powerful that the overpay will still be attractive at $4.

"Discard a card" is such a small price for gaining a Gold that it looks silly. And also it needlessly complicates the card.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2015, 08:26:07 pm »
0

I think you should definitely try it as-is (gain a Gold and a Ruins) at $4. One of the key reasons I like Robber Knight is that it's pretty simple (on-play). I think the targeted trashing is sufficiently powerful that the overpay will still be attractive at $4.

"Discard a card" is such a small price for gaining a Gold that it looks silly. And also it needlessly complicates the card.

Ooookay, I'll try it as-is at the cost of $4 before I complicate it.

Now would you believe it? I came up with another card that looks pretty promising, at least to me. I salvaged a part of old Salesman (which was cut) and the bottom part of Siege (which is probably going to be cut) and the result is Capitalize!


Quote
Capitalize
Action/Reaction
$7
Choose a Supply pile. Cards from that pile cost $2 more this turn. Trash a card you have in play and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it.
When you play an Action card, you may reveal and play this from your hand.

There's actually a lot going on with this card but I'm glad that it turned out to look so simple. I's an Expand variant that only expands cards you have in play, which would normally be weaker than Expand but it also has a synergy with itself and other tfb cards. The Reaction part enables that. It might be a bit wonky to resolve but since Capitalize is an expensive card, I have faith that you don't use it too often and should be able to keep track of the cards you trashed from play before you actually played them. Now there's probably something very obvious on this card that I overlooked which could break the game balance and I'm just waiting for Jack Rudd or LFN to point it out.

I imagine Capitalize would go well in a Platinum/Colony game.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 06:52:14 am by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2015, 05:13:03 am »
+1

Maybe a bit too complicated for what it does? You could make it a treasure that trashes an action card you have in play and gains a card costing up to $3 more, and in 90% of the cases it would mostly be the same. I mean, I guess you can't chain them anymore to make a single card ever more expensive... If you want to go that way, I think it could stand to be made yet more simple.

The problem with mid-turn cost-increasing cards is what happens if I play highway three times, and then use this to increase the cost of poor house?
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2015, 06:50:19 am »
0

Maybe a bit too complicated for what it does? You could make it a treasure that trashes an action card you have in play and gains a card costing up to $3 more, and in 90% of the cases it would mostly be the same. I mean, I guess you can't chain them anymore to make a single card ever more expensive... If you want to go that way, I think it could stand to be made yet more simple.
A treasure.... nah, that's way too simple. I'll think about it ;)

The problem with mid-turn cost-increasing cards is what happens if I play highway three times, and then use this to increase the cost of poor house?
Then Poor House still costs $0 because Highway's effect stays active while it's in play. What are you getting at?
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2015, 07:01:25 am »
0

The problem with mid-turn cost-increasing cards is what happens if I play highway three times, and then use this to increase the cost of poor house?
Then Poor House still costs $0 because Highway's effect stays active while it's in play. What are you getting at?

Eh, it was 0 because of the highways. Then you increase it by 2 because of Capitalize. So what is it now?

If it's the "while in play" that bothers you, replace it with Bridge.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2015, 07:33:39 am »
0

The problem with mid-turn cost-increasing cards is what happens if I play highway three times, and then use this to increase the cost of poor house?
Then Poor House still costs $0 because Highway's effect stays active while it's in play. What are you getting at?

Eh, it was 0 because of the highways. Then you increase it by 2 because of Capitalize. So what is it now?

If it's the "while in play" that bothers you, replace it with Bridge.

Then Poor House costs $2 because Bridges lower its cost only once on-play, and never below $0. So it's $0 after the Bridges and then $2 after Capitalize. Do you think that might cause confusion?
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2015, 07:48:58 am »
0

Well, a ruling that makes Highway and Bridge behave differently is definitely going to cause confusion. Up to you to decide if it's worth it, or if there's some other way to do (or phrase) what you want to do.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2015, 07:57:40 am »
0

Then Poor House costs $2 because Bridges lower its cost only once on-play, and never below $0. So it's $0 after the Bridges and then $2 after Capitalize. Do you think that might cause confusion?

Then Poor House still costs $0 because Highway's effect stays active while it's in play. What are you getting at?

But I don't think that's correct. Normally, Action cards do what's printed on them right now, so it's easy you play a Village right now, you get +1 cards, +2 actions right now. When you play multiple Action cards with normally timed effects, you get those effects in the order you played those cards. But some cards, such as Durations, Possession, Scheme, Bridge and Capitalize make stuff happen at other times in the case of Bridge and Capitalize, they have effects happening "this turn", which means that it's a continuous effect that keeps happening for the duration of the entire turn. From the way Durations work, we know that in these cases when multiple cards have specially timed effects happening at the same time, the active player chooses the order when it's time to start actually doing those things, and the order in which the cards were originally played isn't at all relevant. Therefore, I think the correct way to interpret the rules here is that at all times, the active player can choose if he wants to make Bridge's effect happen before Capitalize's effect or vice versa. Which is super confusing.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2015, 08:41:49 am »
+2

I suppose, I could make this card way easier (meaning it has less possible interactions):

Quote
Capitalize
Action/Reaction
$7
Trash a card you have in play and gain a card costing up to $3 more than it.
When you play an Action card, you may play this from your hand.

As a Treasure, like Pacovf suggested, it could look somewhat like this:

Quote
Capitalize
Treasure
$7
$1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play and gain a card costing up to $3 more than it.

Maybe another way to circumvent the Bridge confusion would be to use tokens that permanently increase a card's cost. This would also keep the interaction possibilities with other tfb cards:

Quote
Capitalize
Action
$7
Put a Capitalize token on a Kingdom card pile. Trash a card you have in play and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
A card's cost is permanently increased by $1 per Capitalize token on its pile.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2015, 10:24:11 am »
+2

The first of those three versions of Capitalize doesn't really need the Reaction element. It could go the more Procession route of "Play an Action from your hand. Trash it. Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it." This would translate most of its functions into a much simpler form.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2015, 02:08:10 pm »
0

The first of those three versions of Capitalize doesn't really need the Reaction element. It could go the more Procession route of "Play an Action from your hand. Trash it. Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it." This would translate most of its functions into a much simpler form.

It would also make Capitalize even more similar to existing cards. I at least want some unusual and exciting elements in my cards. That's why I'm actually in favour of the third version above. It seems pretty simple to me and still has something new that influences other players as well, as I originally wanted the card to. What do you think of this Embargo-approach?
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2015, 10:13:44 am »
0

I just tested these versions of Robber Knight and Capitalize (which has been renamed to Valorize) in the same game:

   

Even at the cost of $4, Robber Knight's non-terminal Gold gaining is far too good in the late game. With all the Golds in your deck, it's not hard to do one big overpay where you trash 4 or 5 Ruins from your discard pile at once, and then you're good to go. I should also mention that this was a Cultist game. I went for Robber Knights and my opponent went for Cultist and only won by 1 Estate, and that was only possible because Duke was also on the board. I was still able to score Provinces much faster, despite I gained all the Ruins.

I'm thinking to change Robber Knight so that you get either the actions or the Gold:

Quote
Gain a Ruins. Choose one: +2 Actions; or gain a Gold.

As for Valorize, the card seems solid on first impression. We played with Bridge to see of there's any cost confusion but with the cost increase now being fix and permanent, there was none. However, Valorize needs to trash from hand instead of from play, otherwise it would be nearly useless without non-terminals. It's not superior to Expand; while it stacks and works better on Kingdom cards, it's worse with basic treasures and victory cards. Also, you boost card value for your opponents as well.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2015, 05:35:58 pm »
+1

If it was a Cultist game, doesn't that mean Ruins should run out much faster? Considering you would have gained a fair share of Ruins anyhow, i'd say Robber Knight just is pretty Cultist resistant. You wouldn't judge Counting House on how good it is on a Mountebank Board, either. I guess what i want to say is, Robber Knight's downside and Cultist's attack are redundant, effectively pushing Robber Knight and weakening Cultist.

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2015, 05:55:16 pm »
0

How about +3 Actions or gain a Gold?
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #120 on: March 13, 2015, 10:10:45 pm »
0

If it was a Cultist game, doesn't that mean Ruins should run out much faster? Considering you would have gained a fair share of Ruins anyhow, i'd say Robber Knight just is pretty Cultist resistant. You wouldn't judge Counting House on how good it is on a Mountebank Board, either. I guess what i want to say is, Robber Knight's downside and Cultist's attack are redundant, effectively pushing Robber Knight and weakening Cultist.

How is Robber Knight Cultist-resistant? The Ruins are meant as a penalty for the fast Gold-gaining. I didn't even play Cultist, just Robber Knights, so I gained all 10 Ruins and still managed to almost win. The Ruins were supposed to hurt me but didn't do so enough. Maybe I got this backwards but Robber Knights definitely doesn't make Ruins a better card and you only got so few opportunities to trash them with RK as the only trasher.

Anyway, I want to try out this version of Robber Knight next:



How about +3 Actions or gain a Gold?

I don't know, I'm not a fan of plain +3 Actions in general, except for Crossroads. I can't say why, though.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #121 on: March 13, 2015, 10:32:26 pm »
0

I think "Choose one: gain a Gold and a Ruins; or +2 Actions" is slightly less confusing and equivalent unless the Gold pile runs out (which still seems unlikely to me, even with Robber Knight in the Kingdom).
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #122 on: March 13, 2015, 10:34:41 pm »
+2

What Asper means is that, normally Cultist is crazy strong, because if you ignore it, you end up with all 10 Ruins.  Robber Knight's big drawback is that it gains Ruins on play.  Since there is only a limited number of Ruins in the supply, and Cultist is already causing you to gain them all anyway, Robber Knight's big drawback is significantly reduced.  You were gaining all 10 Ruins regardless of whether you used Robber Knight, so you might as well use it, because you still get all the good stuff from it without ending up with anymore ruins in your deck than you otherwise would have.

Obviously without Cultist that's not the case, so playtesting them together is probably not a good indicator of its power level.
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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2015, 12:00:31 pm »
+1

What Asper means is that, normally Cultist is crazy strong, because if you ignore it, you end up with all 10 Ruins.  Robber Knight's big drawback is that it gains Ruins on play.  Since there is only a limited number of Ruins in the supply, and Cultist is already causing you to gain them all anyway, Robber Knight's big drawback is significantly reduced.  You were gaining all 10 Ruins regardless of whether you used Robber Knight, so you might as well use it, because you still get all the good stuff from it without ending up with anymore ruins in your deck than you otherwise would have.

Obviously without Cultist that's not the case, so playtesting them together is probably not a good indicator of its power level.

Yes exactly, thanks for putting the thought in a structured form.

Edit: I guess my Counting House comparison was especially misleading. Robber Knight doesn't counter Cultist. The actual point is the redundancy between attack and drawback. Each for itself is balanced, but as both share the same supply of Ruins, Cultist's opportunity cost/use ratio becomes lower and Robber Knight's better. In other words: Each Robber Knight play means a Cultist play where it will just be a Lab-, and each Cultist play means one Robber Knight play where it won't gain a Ruins.

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Re: Dominion: Roots and Renewal (fan card set)
« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2015, 03:29:17 pm »
0

Okay, I think I get what you mean but still Robber Knight felt too strong then, especially after the Ruins ran out. But I just tested the latest version shown above and that worked pretty well. For now, I will stick with it.
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