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Author Topic: Gaining with Options: Carnival  (Read 4615 times)

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Davio

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Gaining with Options: Carnival
« on: July 29, 2014, 07:36:54 am »
+1

I like having options on cards, like Pawn and its hyperactive big brother Trusty Steed.
I also like getting a bonus when I get a card, like Border Village's free Torturer or Rabble.

I thought: Why not combine the two? So I present Carnival.
A harmless card with some fun on-gain options.

Carnival
Action - $4


+1 Card
+1 Action
----------
When you gain this, choose one: Gain a VP token; or trash a card from your hand; or gain a Silver.


Granted, I haven't given a great deal of thought to the options, but these seemed like good starters.
Would you be so kind as to give your thoughts about this concept?
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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2014, 07:46:07 am »
0

Can you open Carnival- Silver, then keep buying Carnivals and trashing copper/estate until you have a deck of just Carnivals, and then you endlessly get tokens forever?
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Davio

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 07:59:31 am »
0

Can you open Carnival- Silver, then keep buying Carnivals and trashing copper/estate until you have a deck of just Carnivals, and then you endlessly get tokens forever?
You can only get a VP token, a Silver or trash a card when you gain this, not when you play it, so no.

After you've gotten your little bonus, it's worse than Pearl Diver (but better for TfB/Sage/...).
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market squire

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2014, 09:01:44 am »
0

Border Village is almost the same thing, just nicer because it actually improves your deck rather than just being a cantrip and because it is even nicer with Tfb.


The difference to Border Village are the choices. I don't see much sense in giving on-gain choices because they happen only once.

Simplified, the three choices are: Great Hall, kind of Vagrant, and Silver. (Kind of Vagrant means that by a one time trashing your deck speed is increased as if you bought a Vagrant who suceeds in every shuffle.)

The effect of having a pure cantrip in your deck is only necessary for Vineyard/ Gardens, Conspirator, or Cornucopia stuff. And you can draw it dead. Actually, I think it makes Sage worse because Sage becomes just a simple cantrip.

The trashing option seems to be the most interesting, maybe you should just go with that one.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 09:23:43 am »
0

Low powered on-gain options are a neat idea, but keep in mind that on-gain powers are a bit weaker to begin with, since you only get to use them once. $4 seems a bit expensive for the options you list, since the card doesn't really do anything otherwise. I suppose it has its place in a Conspirator or Scrying Pool deck, but (as has been pointed out) may not be worth enough to be really great with TfB.

Simple cantrips seem harmless, but they can actually decrease the quality of your deck because they A) can be drawn dead and B) decrease the amount of information in your hand (sometimes you'd rather just know what the next card is).

Right now it does seem like the trashing option is the best. I'd only want cantrip+Silver over just Silver in very specific types of decks that I mentioned, and 1VP just seems like too little. I think it'd have to be 2VP for it to be competitive on a lot of boards.

Maybe you could make it a $4 village (+1 card, +2 actions) with an on-gain bonus, that might make it priced more appropriately. Or, make it a $3. Another idea might be to add an on-gain self-Spy option (reveal and optionally discard the top card of your deck).
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Davio

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 09:27:25 am »
0

Well, the actual options are very much subject to change.

I was just wondering whether the concept would be neat. :)
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LastFootnote

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 09:30:45 am »
+1

The concept may be worth exploring. I actually like the three options, but they don't really work on the card as-is. The complete package you get is simultaneously weak and better than Silver at $4 (which is not good). I suggest this version:

Carnival
Action - $5


+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
----------
When you gain this, choose one: +1 VP; or trash a card from your hand; or gain a Silver.
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Davio

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 09:42:38 am »
+1

That's already better, I can see myself having a hard time choosing between the three.

The +1 VP seems quite harmless on this version though so maybe it can be replaced?
I mean, I think I would usually just pick "trash a card" or "gain a Silver".

How about a double/triple/whatever Spy effect?
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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 09:45:35 am »
+1

The concept may be worth exploring. I actually like the three options, but they don't really work on the card as-is. The complete package you get is simultaneously weak and better than Silver at $4 (which is not good).
This is a special case where being strictly better than Silver isn't a problem, since while the card itself is better than Silver, there still isn't a particular reason to buy this over Silver if Silver is what you want. (Though, it comes with a cantrip, which can be good or bad depending on the situation, so it's not even strictly better.) The Silver option on the original card is bad because it's pointless, not because it breaks the "strictly-better-than-Silver has to cost at least $5" rule.

Carnival
Action - $5


+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
----------
When you gain this, choose one: +1 VP; or trash a card from your hand; or gain a Silver.
I like this version.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 10:06:22 am »
+1

The +1 VP seems quite harmless on this version though so maybe it can be replaced?
I mean, I think I would usually just pick "trash a card" or "gain a Silver".

How about a double/triple/whatever Spy effect?

That could work. Or even just "put your deck into your discard pile". We think of it as weak because we associate it with Chancellor, but it can be a good effect and it's a good fit for something that usually happens during your Buy phase.
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AJD

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 10:30:39 am »
0

Low powered on-gain options are a neat idea, but keep in mind that on-gain powers are a bit weaker to begin with, since you only get to use them once. $4 seems a bit expensive for the options you list, since the card doesn't really do anything otherwise.

As people have noted, it's strictly better than Great Hall, so $4 is the lowest possible price.

Quote
I suppose it has its place in a Conspirator or Scrying Pool deck, but (as has been pointed out) may not be worth enough to be really great with TfB.

Simple cantrips seem harmless, but they can actually decrease the quality of your deck because they A) can be drawn dead and B) decrease the amount of information in your hand (sometimes you'd rather just know what the next card is).

Hmm. What you say is true about cantrips. On the other hand, outside of Conspirator, Scrying Pool, and Vineyard decks, they can also be useful as a counter against trashing attacks and possibly spying attacks, and can help you time reshuffles if you use them with finesse…. I feel like there are probably other cases in which having a do-nothing cantrip is better than not, too.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 10:39:55 am »
0

As people have noted, it's strictly better than Great Hall, so $4 is the lowest possible price.

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AJD

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 10:56:09 am »
0

As people have noted, it's strictly better than Great Hall, so $4 is the lowest possible price.

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LastFootnote

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 11:39:20 am »
0

I don't really care whether $4 Carnival is just better or "strictly" better than Great Hall. But as a Dominion card, Great Hall is pretty crappy. Like, it doesn't add much to the game. It's a card that exists only for its same-set combos (Ironworks, Scout, Tribute, etc.) and because hybrid-Victory cards were the new hotness in Intrigue. There are other such cards in Dominion (Rats, Cache), but they're all provide more gameplay value than Great Hall does.

I strongly support replacing the +1 VP option on Carnival.
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Awaclus

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 11:52:01 am »
0

As people have noted, it's strictly better than Great Hall, so $4 is the lowest possible price.
It's not really strictly better than Great Hall. Assuming you choose the VP option, the situations where you want this over Great Hall is when it's likely to get trashed, and the situations where you want Great Hall over this is when a card cares about Victory cards. If you don't choose the VP option, it's obviously not strictly better than Great Hall.
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Marcory

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2014, 12:36:12 pm »
0

What about replacing the 1VP option with 2VP? Or get rid of the 1VP option, but have it give VP (maybe 3 or 4) per 2 carnivals in your deck at the end of the game?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 12:37:14 pm by Marcory »
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Awaclus

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 01:00:20 pm »
0

What about replacing the 1VP option with 2VP? Or get rid of the 1VP option, but have it give VP (maybe 3 or 4) per 2 carnivals in your deck at the end of the game?
2VP sounds too good, and the second option is definitely way too good.
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Davio

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 01:13:55 pm »
+1

I feel 1 VP is too little and 2 VP is too much and trashing one card is not enough, because I still like Junk Dealer better.
I do like the Silver option, because Silver is not a terrible card (as SheCantSayNo wants us to believe).

So I think dropping the VP part entirely is the right thing to do.

Gathering all opinions, I'm leaning towards:

Put your deck in your discard pile; or trash 2 cards from your hand; or gain a Silver (putting it on your deck maybe?).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 01:20:45 pm »
0

I feel 1 VP is too little and 2 VP is too much and trashing one card is not enough, because I still like Junk Dealer better.
I do like the Silver option, because Silver is not a terrible card (as SheCantSayNo wants us to believe).

So I think dropping the VP part entirely is the right thing to do.

Gathering all opinions, I'm leaning towards:

Put your deck in your discard pile; or trash 2 cards from your hand; or gain a Silver (putting it on your deck maybe?).

I think Peddler + Silver is good value for $5, even if the Silver isn't top-decked. Top-decking it might be fine, but it's more words.

I think trashing two cards from your hand is a vast power increase and is too strong. Trashing one card seems great to me. If it was a dead card (Estate, Curse), then Carnival already kind of like [+2 Cards; +1 Action; +$1] because you're effectively skipping past that dead card every turn. Not really, but you get the idea. Trashing two cards seems a bit nuts.
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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 01:30:29 pm »
+1

my estimation:
silver+peddler for 5$ is really good. don't topdeck it.
trash+peddler for 5$ is really good. trashing 2 is too strong.
chancellor+peddler for 5$ is weak but situational. it's fine.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2014, 01:37:35 pm »
0

my estimation:
silver+peddler for 5$ is really good. don't topdeck it.
trash+peddler for 5$ is really good. trashing 2 is too strong.
chancellor+peddler for 5$ is weak but situational. it's fine.

Right. I think discarding your deck is situationally strong, and the fact that you can choose another option when it's not strong makes it good. The trashing is also situationally strong, though trashing is stronger in general.
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Davio

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 01:38:04 pm »
+1

Isn't trashing one on-gain simply worse than Junk Dealer?
I thought giving it two trashing would make it on par with JD...

I also thought trashing from hand made it more cumbersome, because you can't trash any Coppers you spent to buy this.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 01:40:46 pm by Davio »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 01:40:58 pm »
0

Isn't trashing one on-gain simply worse than Junk Dealer?

I thought giving it two trashing would make it on par with JD...

Not exactly. Trashing early is almost always way better than trashing later. Trashing a card when you buy Carnival is better than trashing a card on your next shuffle (when you actually play the Junk Dealer). Sure, Junk Dealer lets you trash a card each time you play it, but sometimes that's also bad because you have nothing left to trash. I would try it with trashing one card first.

EDIT: Also, Junk Dealer reduces your hand size by one when played and Carnival doesn't. That's significant. If Junk Dealer's trashing were optional, I think the argument could be made that Carnival needs to trash 2 cards to compete. But Junk Dealer itself might be too strong if its trashing were optional.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 01:47:14 pm by LastFootnote »
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Davio

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2014, 01:46:46 pm »
+1

Okay, my definitive version for now has these options:

- Discard deck
- Trash one from hand
- Gain a Silver

I think the options are varied enough that they all might have their uses.
I do think discarding your deck is an underrated effect, because it's coupled with Chancellor (as was pointed out).
Trashing one on-gain could very well be perfectly balanced; if you open 5/2, you can't trash from hand as you're using all cards (barring Baker).
And the Silver could be a good option if the other two don't look particularly useful. :)
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silverspawn

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Re: Gaining with Options: Carnival
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2014, 01:57:37 pm »
0

junk dealer is a strong trasher that's only a trasher and turns into a dead card once you cleaned up your deck. carnival is manifold, always stays a peddler and trashes on-gain. it better be weaker than junk dealer if you buy it early.

another reason why trashing one card is so good is that it can get rid of the last dead card in your deck.
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