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Author Topic: Rebuild and Shelters  (Read 1448 times)

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Davio

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Rebuild and Shelters
« on: July 25, 2014, 07:32:02 am »
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Rebuild is a strong card, but I've always doubted it with Shelters.

When opponents go Rebuild against me with Shelters, it doesn't seem very effective as they lose time buying Estates. At least it gives me a lot more breathing room than without Shelters, but it's hard to quantify how big this gap is.

So what are your general feelings toward Rebuild and Shelters? Is it an obvious nombo? Still good, but needs some work? Or do you just tend to ignore it completely?
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Awaclus

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 07:55:05 am »
+1

It's not a lot worse than with Estates. I almost always go for it, and if my opponent ignores it, I usually win.
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Holger

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 08:20:29 am »
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Agreed with Awaclus. If your opponent wastes time buying Estates, he's playing it wrong. You should usually only buy an Estate if you have no other Rebuild target in your deck (or if you get an early $2). And OE alone can be rebuilt 3 times.
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SK

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 11:11:03 am »
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It isnt that bad, I dont think. Not only is OE a bit of buffer, but buying an early estate is a good way to get rid of Hovel. Granted, the lack of estates does put the shelters player quite a bit of turns behind the estate player, but Rebuild is so fast it wont take long to get up off the ground.
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SCSN

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 11:30:58 am »
+4

Iirc, across all competing strategies I've tried Shelters make a Rebuild strategy perform between 0.5 and 2.5% worse. I've yet to find a strategy that loses to Rebuild on an Estate board but wins with Shelters. I'm sure that I can construct some kingdoms where it happens, but they are so rare and our ability to estimate such small discrepancies is so faulty that in practice the presence of Shelters is just negligible.

One thing to note and something quite a lot of people do wrong is that you don't want to buy a lot of Estates in a Shelters game. Before the very late stage you only want the absolute minimum number of (OV)Estates that give you an acceptable probability of not having dead Rebuilds. Loosely speaking, you want to maximize the expectation of your Rebuild plays, which is done by Rebuilding, over the course of the game, Duchy -> Province as much as possible. OVE requires already 2 Rebuild plays to get it to be a Duchy, so I usually buy just 1 Estate in addition to that. Unless there are 3+ Duchies left and you have 0 Estates or there are 4+ left and you have 1, I would be very weary of buying another Estate, it's generally better to get Silvers and buy Duchies directly.
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DG

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 12:39:16 pm »
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If you are playing a basic rebuild+treasure game then yes the shelters are worse, clearly so if you start 5/2 as rebuild/estate. If you set up a more interesting rebuild deck, even with just one conspirator and one warehouse for cycling say, you can get a bit more value from the shelters.
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Davio

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 01:27:20 pm »
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Okay, the consensus seems to be that Shelters don't hurt Rebuilders that much.

But a more interesting point then arises: What changes do you make to your strategy to make it work? Do you give higher priority to Duchies or Rebuilds than you would with Estates?
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silverspawn

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 01:29:00 pm »
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Okay, the consensus seems to be that Shelters don't hurt Rebuilders that much.

But a more interesting point then arises: What changes do you make to your strategy to make it work? Do you give higher priority to Duchies or Rebuilds than you would with Estates?

didn't SCSN answer that?
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Davio

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 01:36:43 pm »
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Okay, the consensus seems to be that Shelters don't hurt Rebuilders that much.

But a more interesting point then arises: What changes do you make to your strategy to make it work? Do you give higher priority to Duchies or Rebuilds than you would with Estates?

didn't SCSN answer that?
He touched on it a little, but it wasn't very complete.

I'm mostly curious about the build up, not the end game.
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Holger

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Re: Rebuild and Shelters
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 04:42:15 pm »
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If you are playing a basic rebuild+treasure game then yes the shelters are worse, clearly so if you start 5/2 as rebuild/estate. If you set up a more interesting rebuild deck, even with just one conspirator and one warehouse for cycling say, you can get a bit more value from the shelters.

5/2 is okay with Shelters, then you'll have the one Estate you want after turn 2; with starting Estates you'd just pass on the $2 turn (unless there's good $2 support).
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