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[Jasoba]

Had this idea a while ago...


Wonder - 8$    VP card
Your other Victory cards are wroth twice as much
_______________________________________
When you gain this, trash a province or trash this!

I really wanted the vp multiplier, and this is the most balanced way I came up with!


Flavor: In a normal 1v1 dominon game you cant get the 8th wonder (if you dont do some remodel tricks the game just ends)
so I decided to make only 7 wonders! This prevents some ridiculous 2^8 multiplier and you can make each wonder a different
artwork pyramids, wall, ect...
The card should mimic the sacrifices (trash) and the rewards (2x) of building a world wonder...

problem card -> swindler!

[RTT]

some questions: Trash a Province? From your Hand? Or from The Supply? i think this should be spezified.
what is a normal 2v2 dominion game? do you mean 1v1?

[Awaclus]

You're supposed to trash the Province from your hand, right?

I wonder (pun intended) if it's balanced. It helps engine strategies a lot, but it's very swingy for big money strategies (you can't count on being able to get this, but you can't count on your opponent being unable to get it either) and useless for any other strategies.

[faust]

Technical things first: I think you want this to say "worth 0 VP" somewhere; it's a VP card after all. Also, in order not to get a ridiculous stacking effect (unless that's what you want), you could maybe change the wording to: "At the end of the game, count the VP of all your VP card that are not Wonder. This is worth the amount of VP you counted."

As for the card: I think the on-gain effect is too harsh. That way, this card basically costs $16 (a Province + $8 from this), and you have to have the Province in hand in order to be able to gain it. And you're right, Swindler is a big problem.

One alternative penalty I can think of is "when you gain this, trash all cards you have in play". This makes Swindler less of a problem (there's an interaction with duration cards, but that's not too bad). It also has an effect that once you get your Wonder, your deck is crap, so it's only a good buy as a finisher. It also mimics sacrifices, maybe even better. Megaturns might be a problem, but not really a bigger problem than a megaturn piling out the Provinces.

[Jasoba]

Yes 1v1 and from the hand!

Technical things first: I think you want this to say "worth 0 VP" somewhere; it's a VP card after all. Also, in order not to get a ridiculous stacking effect (unless that's what you want), you could maybe change the wording to: "At the end of the game, count the VP of all your VP card that are not Wonder. This is worth the amount of VP you counted."

Yeah I really want the stacking effect! so 2 wonders and 2 provinces = 2x2x12 pts
Witch is kinda balanced, since you could have bought 6 provinces and win anyway.
With your suggestion "trash all in play" im not sure if its to easy to get some mega vps xD (and you can use coin tokens to remove the penalty)

I think this card is weak in a pure province race since its so much, a win more card (if you win the province split its prolly gg anyway)
The card could be good with alternative vp cards, long dragging games with duchies or as a counter to vp token engine!

Or you can try to get a wonder really early (tournament style) to secure a big advantage for the rest of the game.

well and yeah the damn swindler, I mean I could price it to 7$ but meh; I could make the trash on buy, but then its to easy to remodel into it... maybe just hop the dont show up together^^

[faust]

I think my main issues with the penalty as it is are:

1. It's super swingy. Unless you're able to draw your hand, whether or not you have that Province in hand comes down to luck.
2. I think the purpose of alt-VP cards is to provide an alternative strategy to the usual Province race. This card does not do that, instead it even enforces a Province race (because without getting Provinces, this card is useless).

[AndrewisFTTW]

If you get a couple provinces and a few Wonders you have an astronomical point lead.

[enfynet]

0 VP
(Doubling clause)
-----
When you gain this, trash a Victory card from your hand. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

[silverspawn]

0 VP
(Doubling clause)
-----
When you gain this, trash a Victory card from your hand. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

you buy it in T1, trash a hovel and an overgrown estate from your hand, draw one card, and have double VP at the end of the game. not bad, not bad.

[Awaclus]

0 VP
(Doubling clause)
-----
When you gain this, trash a Victory card from your hand. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

you buy it in T1, trash a hovel and an overgrown estate from your hand, draw one card, and have double VP at the end of the game. not bad, not bad.

It doesn't cost $0, that's the VP value.

[silverspawn]

0 VP
(Doubling clause)
-----
When you gain this, trash a Victory card from your hand. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

you buy it in T1, trash a hovel and an overgrown estate from your hand, draw one card, and have double VP at the end of the game. not bad, not bad.

It doesn't cost $0, that's the VP value.

the cost isn't specified, so i can pay whatever i want 

but yea i know. i was just highlighting the potential problems. even if it costs 5, that's still crazy good. trashing a victory card from your hand is nowhere near trashing a province, it usually isn't a penalty at all.

[enfynet]

But it allows strategies with alt-vp types as well. Again, depending on cost and how the doubling clause works. It should double the value of Curses too.

[GendoIkari]

0 VP
(Doubling clause)
-----
When you gain this, trash a Victory card from your hand. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

you buy it in T1, trash a hovel and an overgrown estate from your hand, draw one card, and have double VP at the end of the game. not bad, not bad.

It doesn't cost $0, that's the VP value.

the cost isn't specified, so i can pay whatever i want 

but yea i know. i was just highlighting the potential problems. even if it costs 5, that's still crazy good. trashing a victory card from your hand is nowhere near trashing a province, it usually isn't a penalty at all.

The OP says it costs $8; none of the suggestions have implied changing that cost.

[GendoIkari]

If you get a couple provinces and a few Wonders you have an astronomical point lead.

True; yet each Wonder you get was also a Province you had to get... so if you have 2 Provinces and 3 Wonders, you could have also just bought 8 Provinces.

[Jasoba]

If you get a couple provinces and a few Wonders you have an astronomical point lead.

True; yet each Wonder you get was also a Province you had to get... so if you have 2 Provinces and 3 Wonders, you could have also just bought 8 Provinces.

Yeah, for balancing reasons! I mean the effect is really strong, is it? I cant make the multiplier 1.5 without getting super akward so I thought it should make a strong drawback!

[AndrewisFTTW]

If you get a couple provinces and a few Wonders you have an astronomical point lead.

True; yet each Wonder you get was also a Province you had to get... so if you have 2 Provinces and 3 Wonders, you could have also just bought 8 Provinces.

Yeah, for balancing reasons! I mean the effect is really strong, is it? I cant make the multiplier 1.5 without getting super akward so I thought it should make a strong drawback!

I haven't the rest of the discussion so sorry if this is dumb/redundant but you could say "When you buy this, reveal carda from your deck until you reveal a Province. Trash that Province. If you did, for every Wonder in your deck, each of your victory cards are worth twice as much VP. Discsrd the other revealed cards." or something like that.

[Jasoba]

actually a good idea, but kinda clunky wording.

[silverspawn]

the problem is, even if you get it balanced, you  just buy it instead of province once it's worth it. it doesn't have a lot of strategy, and it doesn't change the amount of building you can do because it doesn't substitute provinces in any way like other alt vps do. basically, it's a nerf to vp chips and it'll make games last slightly longer.

[Tables]

I remember seeing an idea similar to this on BGG not too long ago, and it got ripped to shreds. It's a win more card. It doesn't make for interesting situations or add to the strategy most of the time, it just gives you more points for already being in a good position.

[Jasoba]

I remember seeing an idea similar to this on BGG not too long ago, and it got ripped to shreds. It's a win more card. It doesn't make for interesting situations or add to the strategy most of the time, it just gives you more points for already being in a good position.

I dont know man... maybe your right but this has to be tested! For me I am not really sure if this card is very good or just bad I dont know if its wroth to stack to wonders (duchies 12 pts) and so on. You have to think about it and you can argue about the strength, so is that not interesting/strategic enough?