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GendoIkari

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2014, 01:33:31 pm »
0

Now that I think about it, there's another possible fix. You could do: "When you buy this or when it comes into play, choose an Action card you have in play, putting it into your hand or on top of your deck. This is that card until it leaves play"

that way making it unthroneable, you can allow targeting other believers, therefore the latest problem is obsolete, and you also solved the "I'm now 2 cards problem," and it's probably shorter. and it's still really strong with TR, because TR generates lots of actions. it could probably afford to be not quite as ridiculous in every tr game

maybe I'll do that. just to make sure it even works: a card doesn't enter play twice if you throne it, right?

Ha, I thought of that wording right after reading your explanation of why it's broken with KC. But I don't like it... "when it comes into play" is just kind of weird, and would require extra thought from players to figure out when it counts as coming into play, and what exactly that means, etc.

As a general rule for all fan cards, I think it's bad to use any game terminology that hasn't been used on official cards. Same reason it's never good to have a card that refers to the "worth" or "value" of a treasure card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2014, 01:35:40 pm »
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I'm starting to think it best to stick with the original wording. If you use it on a duration, just leave the believer in play to remind you, and you just have to remember (if you use the on buy effect on a duration, you can't leave the believer in play, but too bad, just write it down, use a token, whatever)

I agree with the stick with the original wording part, but you can't "just leave the believer in play to remind you". By the rules, Believer should be in your discard pile; which will matter if you need to shuffle.
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GeoLib

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2014, 01:49:40 pm »
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Is there a particular reason why we can't use "-1 action"? It's a pretty well-defined concept. It changes the way the card works somewhat, but I don't think it's broken. Something like

Believer
$2 Action

-1 action
Play an action card you already have in play


Ok. No. I don't like this anymore, but I'm posting it anyway in case it inspires something better from someone else
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Showdown35

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2014, 02:21:32 pm »
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I'm starting to think it best to stick with the original wording. If you use it on a duration, just leave the believer in play to remind you, and you just have to remember (if you use the on buy effect on a duration, you can't leave the believer in play, but too bad, just write it down, use a token, whatever)

I agree with the stick with the original wording part, but you can't "just leave the believer in play to remind you". By the rules, Believer should be in your discard pile; which will matter if you need to shuffle.

Actually, you can "just leave the Believer in play to remind you,"... in fact, you are supposed to!

Here's a quote from the Seaside Rule Sheet:

"If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything."

The rules go on to give the Throne Room + Merchant Ship example, stating that the TR stays in play until your next clean-up ("The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn.")

I would say that if you use Believer to put a Fishing Village back in your hand, then you are "modifying" the FV, and the rules allow you to keep the Believer in play to remind you that you get the FV effect on your next turn, even though the FV is no longer in play (or in play a second time).
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silverspawn

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2014, 02:33:17 pm »
0

Is there a particular reason why we can't use "-1 action"? It's a pretty well-defined concept. It changes the way the card works somewhat, but I don't think it's broken. Something like

Believer
$2 Action

-1 action
Play an action card you already have in play


Ok. No. I don't like this anymore, but I'm posting it anyway in case it inspires something better from someone else

i'm definitely not doing -1 action, sorry  :P

silverspawn

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2014, 02:42:10 pm »
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I don't even know exactly how the reminder system works. if you throne a wharf, both stay outside. if you throne a throne that thrones a wharf and a hamlet, the second throne stays outside. but doesn't that mean that if you procession a procession that processions two wharfs, no card stays outside? but doesn't every procession chain leave at least one card outside? I don't know if i've ever seen a lot of cards being drawn without any card outside.

Quote
"If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything."

that seems pretty clear. except the "also" doesn't apply here. but still, it seems plausible that even with the original wording, believer has to stay outside. kinda nice.

GendoIkari

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2014, 11:38:21 pm »
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I'm starting to think it best to stick with the original wording. If you use it on a duration, just leave the believer in play to remind you, and you just have to remember (if you use the on buy effect on a duration, you can't leave the believer in play, but too bad, just write it down, use a token, whatever)

I agree with the stick with the original wording part, but you can't "just leave the believer in play to remind you". By the rules, Believer should be in your discard pile; which will matter if you need to shuffle.

Actually, you can "just leave the Believer in play to remind you,"... in fact, you are supposed to!

Here's a quote from the Seaside Rule Sheet:

"If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything."

The rules go on to give the Throne Room + Merchant Ship example, stating that the TR stays in play until your next clean-up ("The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn.")

I would say that if you use Believer to put a Fishing Village back in your hand, then you are "modifying" the FV, and the rules allow you to keep the Believer in play to remind you that you get the FV effect on your next turn, even though the FV is no longer in play (or in play a second time).

I'm sure about that at all... Throne Room modifies Fishing Village in that it causes it to be played twice, instead of once. If "return to your hand" counts as modification the same way, then how do you define "that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything"... it returned the FV to your hand, it's not doing anything anymore. It has no effect on what will happen on your next turn at all. Playing the FV a second time affects your next turn, but playing the Believer doesn't at all.
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Showdown35

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2014, 12:32:13 am »
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I'm sure about that at all... Throne Room modifies Fishing Village in that it causes it to be played twice, instead of once. If "return to your hand" counts as modification the same way, then how do you define "that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything"... it returned the FV to your hand, it's not doing anything anymore. It has no effect on what will happen on your next turn at all. Playing the FV a second time affects your next turn, but playing the Believer doesn't at all.

I'm saying that if you play the Believer on a FV that you played this turn, the Believer would stay in play because it modified the FV in such a way that a reminder is warrented. Technically the Throne Room isn't "doing anything" except serving as a reminder. The Believer would serve as a reminder until your next turn when the FV that it returned to your hand has finished it's effect.

Yes, the word "also" is out of place because the FV would no longer be "also" in play, but when seaside was made, there were no published cards that could remove a duration from play, but as we see with Procession, even though it trashes the Duration card, Procession "also" stays in play.

If you want to argue that TR and Procession are "doing something" because they are the means of actually playing the duration card, then why would the rule even include "or modify"? It seems clear to me that if any card you play "modifies" a duration card in play such that you'll need a reminder for the next turns effect, then that card stays in play until that next turn effect happens, then it's discarded during that cleanup.

EDIT: re-reading the previous comment, I think I should clear up that I'm saying the Believer would stay in play only if you use it to return a Duration that you played this turn! If you are returning a Duration that's already been in play since your last turn and already had its next turn effect, the Believer would not be "doing anything" and would be discarded as normal during cleanup. I'm hoping that was the only disagreement.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 12:38:39 am by Showdown35 »
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GendoIkari

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2014, 12:41:21 am »
+1

I'm sure about that at all... Throne Room modifies Fishing Village in that it causes it to be played twice, instead of once. If "return to your hand" counts as modification the same way, then how do you define "that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything"... it returned the FV to your hand, it's not doing anything anymore. It has no effect on what will happen on your next turn at all. Playing the FV a second time affects your next turn, but playing the Believer doesn't at all.

I'm saying that if you play the Believer on a FV that you played this turn, the Believer would stay in play because it modified the FV in such a way that a reminder is warrented. Technically the Throne Room isn't "doing anything" except serving as a reminder. The Believer would serve as a reminder until your next turn when the FV that it returned to your hand has finished it's effect.

Yes, the word "also" is out of place because the FV would no longer be "also" in play, but when seaside was made, there were no published cards that could remove a duration from play, but as we see with Procession, even though it trashes the Duration card, Procession "also" stays in play.

If you want to argue that TR and Procession are "doing something" because they are the means of actually playing the duration card, then why would the rule even include "or modify"? It seems clear to me that if any card you play "modifies" a duration card in play such that you'll need a reminder for the next turns effect, then that card stays in play until that next turn effect happens, then it's discarded during that cleanup.

I suppose that makes sense.... basically you're defining "doing something" to include "reminding you that there's a Duration effect." Certainly that's a valid argument. But I don't think it's a given or obvious that that's correct either. Because with Throne Room, playing Fishing Village with Throne Room changes your next turn compared to playing Fishing Village by itself. So it's fair to say that the Throne Room is doing something to your next turn (even if it technically did it this turn; not next). But here, playing Believer has no effect on your next turn at all.

So I guess it's something that can simply be clarified in a FAQ; though I believe you could clarify it to say either thing and both would be within the letter (and probably spirit) of the rules. Who knows what Donald was thinking of when he wrote "or modify"... since nothing in the game actually can modify another card. Actually... if you want to get super rules-lawyery... Say I play a Fishing Village, then a Bridge. That Bridge clearly modified the Fishing Village; it reduced its cost. But no one would argue it stays in play, even though it most certainly modified a Duration card. So either "or modify" was intended for some other cards that never got published; or it was intended for the Throne Room effect, where "modifying" means "causing it to be played more than once."

*Edit* Actually, I forgot about the "until it's done doing stuff" part. So even though Bridge modified the Fishing Village, there's no valid argument to say that it's still doing stuff at the end of your turn, so of course it gets cleaned up. So that was a bad example.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 12:42:50 am by GendoIkari »
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market squire

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Re: wording issue: believer
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2014, 06:50:32 am »
+1

Is there a particular reason why we can't use "-1 action"? It's a pretty well-defined concept. It changes the way the card works somewhat, but I don't think it's broken. Something like

Believer
$2 Action

-1 action
Play an action card you already have in play


Ok. No. I don't like this anymore, but I'm posting it anyway in case it inspires something better from someone else

i'm definitely not doing -1 action, sorry  :P

Wait, it could also be like:

Quote
Believer
$2 Action

Choose an Action card you have in play.
You may spend an action to play it again.
If you don't, put it on top of your deck.
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