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Author Topic: Bomb v2  (Read 12092 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2014, 05:31:07 pm »
+2

no seriously is this a troll thread?

It's half parody thread and half serious discussion, as far as I can tell.

This is mostly a continuation of this thread, where a poor, misguided soul posted his bad expansion idea and then proceeded to aggressively ignore the torrent of helpful advice.  The commentary was respectful at first, but the author's attitude quickly turned it around.  He eventually got banned for some rather uncivil behaviour, both in the thread and in report PMs to theory.

One of the most obviously terrible cards in the expansion was Bomb.  This thread has some serious discussion about similar cards that might actually work, as well as some less serious comments based on the original thread.
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Davio

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2014, 03:07:27 am »
0

Great synopsis, it's even more fun if you read it in Don LaFontaine's voice.
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Holger

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2014, 07:38:01 am »
0

Quote
Miner (Action) - $3

+1 Action
+$1
Trash a Bomb from your hand or reveal a hand without a Bomb and gain a bomb.

Bomb (Action) - This card is not in the supply

Trash a card from your hand

When this card is trashed, return it to the pile and +3 Cards and trash any number of cards from your hand.

okay, let's see. a copper at play and you gain a bomb. If they collide you gain the effect of 2 labs, a chapel, and a peddler. pretty sure that's too strong, because even though you need to build a lot to make it work, the payoff is just so good, and neither card is dead if they don't collide.

It's only 1 Lab plus Peddler and Chapel (your handsize increases only by one due to trashing Bomb), and you can at best collide every second Miner since you need the first Miner to gain the Bomb; so Miner  effectively alternates between being just a Copper and being Lab+Peddler+Chapel even if you have perfect shuffle luck. You can also collide Bomb with any trasher to get an additional Lab+Chapel. Since Chapel on turn 5+ is not that strong, just make Miner cost $4, then you usually can't "drop the Bomb" before turn 5.
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shark_bait

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2014, 11:04:25 am »
0

Quote
Miner (Action) - $3

+1 Action
+$1
Trash a Bomb from your hand or reveal a hand without a Bomb and gain a bomb.

Bomb (Action) - This card is not in the supply

Trash a card from your hand

When this card is trashed, return it to the pile and +3 Cards and trash any number of cards from your hand.

okay, let's see. a copper at play and you gain a bomb. If they collide you gain the effect of 2 labs, a chapel, and a peddler. pretty sure that's too strong, because even though you need to build a lot to make it work, the payoff is just so good, and neither card is dead if they don't collide.

It's only 1 Lab plus Peddler and Chapel (your handsize increases only by one due to trashing Bomb), and you can at best collide every second Miner since you need the first Miner to gain the Bomb; so Miner  effectively alternates between being just a Copper and being Lab+Peddler+Chapel even if you have perfect shuffle luck. You can also collide Bomb with any trasher to get an additional Lab+Chapel. Since Chapel on turn 5+ is not that strong, just make Miner cost $4, then you usually can't "drop the Bomb" before turn 5.


At $4, Miner would become exceptionally weak.  Especially when you consider that you could only open Miner/Something.  Get a single bomb in you deck on turns 3 and 4.  You are then obligated to get another Miner or two in turns 3 and 4 in order to actually have a good chance of colliding your single bomb. 

The thing is, once your first bomb, you trash your hand making subsequent bombs easier to hit.  Perhaps move 1 card from the bomb trash to the Miner.  That would make it a Peddler with a potential bonus which fits nicely for a $4-cost card.  It makes it harder to get consistent bomb hits because its harder to amass Miner.  The bonus for Miner is turning it into a Lab/Chapel, that is at least a $6/$7 card value.  You can only get it every other Miner play and the bonus is conditional however failure to hit on a given reshuffle increases it's chance of success on subsequent shuffles. 

You can compare to Caravan which is a $4-cost delayed Lab.  Tournament is Peddler with potential for gaining a Prize or Duchy.  Any thoughts on this change?
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gambit05

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2014, 01:08:04 pm »
0

Ideally a pair should fit together thematically and I think these cards do that (with a nod to Stratego).

This Stratego concept could be actually quite interesting. One could have a mixed pile with the following cards:
Spy (obviously needs a different name): Inspects (reveals the top card of) a second “Stratego”-pile face down. May remove those revealed cards or not (like the existing Spy)
Miner: Disarms (trashes) bombs.
Colonel: Beats (trashes) Spy, Flag, Miner, any potentially army unit of lower ranks.
Maybe other Army units, weaker and/or stronger than Colonel.

The 2nd “Stratego” pile contains the same cards and in addition:
Bomb (of course): Blows up (trashes) any card, except Miner, that revealed this card.
Flag: If revealed, gives a bonus to the player.
Cards in the face down pile come in different quantities, as in Stratego.
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pacovf

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2014, 04:20:33 am »
0

Two plays of miner in the same turn are equivalent to a lab and two peddlers once you get your deck going; and they will get your deck going because they also get you superlative trashing, albeit a bit late. If they don't collide nicely, they're at worst two peddlers. Compare that with smithy + 4$ village, which are equivalent to two labs when they collide and not much at all when they don't (smithy will likely draw a lot of actions in that kind of deck).

The reworked miner seems way too strong for a 1 card combo IMHO.
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Holger

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2014, 07:17:03 am »
0

Quote
Miner (Action) - $3

+1 Action
+$1
Trash a Bomb from your hand or reveal a hand without a Bomb and gain a bomb.

Bomb (Action) - This card is not in the supply

Trash a card from your hand

When this card is trashed, return it to the pile and +3 Cards and trash any number of cards from your hand.

okay, let's see. a copper at play and you gain a bomb. If they collide you gain the effect of 2 labs, a chapel, and a peddler. pretty sure that's too strong, because even though you need to build a lot to make it work, the payoff is just so good, and neither card is dead if they don't collide.

It's only 1 Lab plus Peddler and Chapel (your handsize increases only by one due to trashing Bomb), and you can at best collide every second Miner since you need the first Miner to gain the Bomb; so Miner  effectively alternates between being just a Copper and being Lab+Peddler+Chapel even if you have perfect shuffle luck. You can also collide Bomb with any trasher to get an additional Lab+Chapel. Since Chapel on turn 5+ is not that strong, just make Miner cost $4, then you usually can't "drop the Bomb" before turn 5.


At $4, Miner would become exceptionally weak.  Especially when you consider that you could only open Miner/Something.  Get a single bomb in you deck on turns 3 and 4.  You are then obligated to get another Miner or two in turns 3 and 4 in order to actually have a good chance of colliding your single bomb. 

You don't need a second Miner if you can buy any other (Action) trasher. Opening e.g. Forager/Miner (and maybe adding another Forager or Miner on T3/T4) is good enough to almost guarantee a collision with Bomb on the third shuffle.
The point of increasing the price to $4 was that you can't open double Miner, which would probably be far better than double Urchin IMO. (Colliding Miner/Bomb gives you twice the trashing and a better bonus than Mercenary, which is already strong.)


The thing is, once your first bomb, you trash your hand making subsequent bombs easier to hit.  Perhaps move 1 card from the bomb trash to the Miner.  That would make it a Peddler with a potential bonus which fits nicely for a $4-cost card.  It makes it harder to get consistent bomb hits because its harder to amass Miner.  The bonus for Miner is turning it into a Lab/Chapel, that is at least a $6/$7 card value.  You can only get it every other Miner play and the bonus is conditional however failure to hit on a given reshuffle increases it's chance of success on subsequent shuffles. 

You can compare to Caravan which is a $4-cost delayed Lab.  Tournament is Peddler with potential for gaining a Prize or Duchy.  Any thoughts on this change?

But "Peddler with a bonus" always costs $5, like Market, Treasury, Venture etc.
Tournament is NOT just a "Peddler with potential bonus", it also has a significant malus if your opponent reveals Province, then it's just a Ruined Village. (And even so, it's one of the strongest $4 cards.)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:25:20 am by Holger »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2014, 11:19:31 am »
0

Ooooh I know, change it to "when you discard this card, Trash it".  That way you can be Prince of Bombs and play it every turn~!  (I think.. you can choose "Set Aside" from Prince to happen before Trashing, right?)

Or how about Time Bomb.  Does something nominal.  When you discard it, trash your discard pile.
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silverspawn

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2014, 11:30:46 am »
+1

Ooooh I know, change it to "when you discard this card, Trash it".  That way you can be Prince of Bombs and play it every turn~!  (I think.. you can choose "Set Aside" from Prince to happen before Trashing, right?)

Or how about Time Bomb.  Does something nominal.  When you discard it, trash your discard pile.

combos with streetswiper!

Witherweaver

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2014, 11:33:22 am »
0

Ooooh I know, change it to "when you discard this card, Trash it".  That way you can be Prince of Bombs and play it every turn~!  (I think.. you can choose "Set Aside" from Prince to happen before Trashing, right?)

Or how about Time Bomb.  Does something nominal.  When you discard it, trash your discard pile.

combos with streetswiper!

I don't know the reference :(
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silverspawn

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2014, 11:34:20 am »
+1

Ooooh I know, change it to "when you discard this card, Trash it".  That way you can be Prince of Bombs and play it every turn~!  (I think.. you can choose "Set Aside" from Prince to happen before Trashing, right?)

Or how about Time Bomb.  Does something nominal.  When you discard it, trash your discard pile.

combos with streetswiper!

I don't know the reference :(

*sweeper

Witherweaver

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2014, 11:37:45 am »
0

Ha, cool.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2014, 02:41:35 pm »
0

What about something like Masquerade?

Bomb - $1G
Action
+2 Cards
Trash any number of cards from your hand and Bomb
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shark_bait

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Re: Bomb v2
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2014, 01:45:20 pm »
0

Okay, so my current vision of Miner/Bomb is too strong.

At present it is,

Miner (Action) - $4

+1 Action
+1 Card
+$1
______________________________________

When you play this trash a Bomb from your hand or reveal a hand with no Bomb cards and gain a Bomb

Bomb (Action) - $0*

Trash a card from your hand.
____________________________

When you trash this, +2 Cards and trash any number of cards from your hand.  When this card is trashed, return it to the pile.

Maybe the following options could be considered.

1.)  Price Miner at $5 - This would make it a Peddler/Lab/Chapel when connected with Bomb which could only be every other play.  At $5 it would also limit how early you could obtain them and how quickly you could amass lots of Miners/Bombs.

2.)  Remove the +Card from Miner - This would represent a significant nerf as a connected Miner/Bomb would only be a Peddler/Chapel.  My gut is that this would be weak.

Any other thoughts?  I'm sure that a rework could be done, but these are just the quick tweaks that I can see.

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