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Author Topic: Tunnel  (Read 6280 times)

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Vislor

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Tunnel
« on: July 08, 2014, 08:53:17 am »
0

Hiya - first post!

Just wondering if people think Tunnel is not underpriced at $3? 2vp (that alone could make it worth the $3) AND you get a gold everytime you discard it out of play! Seriously good card IMO. I would have made it $4, no big deal but that's what I think it's probably worth.
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jsh357

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 09:09:54 am »
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Well, going by the $3 card ranking poll, it's not really all that good.  I think it's fine at $3.  If you're just getting it for points it is not a whole lot better than Estates, and the Gold gain often isn't worth it as decks that gain Gold aren't always decks that use the Gold effectively.

Also, you don't get a Gold every time you discard it from play--only when not in clean-up phase, so if you're gaining Gold with it every turn you're playing it wrong.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 09:32:33 am by jsh357 »
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 09:30:34 am »
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Well, going by the $3 card ranking poll, it's not really all that good.  I think it's fine at $3.  If you're just getting it for points it is not a whole lot better than Estates, and the Gold gain often isn't worth it as decks that gain Gold aren't always decks that use the Gold effectively.

Also, you don't get a Gold every time you discard it from play--only when not in clean-up phase, so if you're gaining Gold with it every turn you're playing it wrong.

fixed the link for you.
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Vislor

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 09:39:14 am »
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Oh yes, I meant to say when you discard it other than clean-up...sorry. But still, I just think it's a very good price for a 2vp card when you consider Harem and Nobles are both $6. I know they have other good benefits, but think that I would probably have made Tunnel either cost $4 or be worth only 1vp...I would still buy it either way! But I'm not an amazing player (good I think, just not uber!)
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jsh357

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 09:45:59 am »
+2

Oh yes, I meant to say when you discard it other than clean-up...sorry. But still, I just think it's a very good price for a 2vp card when you consider Harem and Nobles are both $6. I know they have other good benefits, but think that I would probably have made Tunnel either cost $4 or be worth only 1vp...I would still buy it either way! But I'm not an amazing player (good I think, just not uber!)

Nothing to be sorry for.  It's always worth questioning these things no matter how good you are.  I think that if the card cost $4 I would not buy it much myself.  I mean, late-game, Tunnel will compete with Duchy more often by costing $4 and the Gold gain is no longer useful to you at that point.  As for the early game, you could have just bought Silver and been pretty likely to hit $6 with that in hand, resulting in Gold, so $3 for the Gold gain effect is pretty reasonable.   As for 1 vs 2 vp, you could compare it to Great Hall.  Great Hall only gives $1 but doesn't take up 'space' whereas Tunnel is often dead but gives more points to compensate.  You'd never go for early Estates, but you might go for an early Tunnel, so the pot needs to be sweetened for it to be worth it.

As far as comparing Tunnel to Harem/Nobles, the effects of those cards are much stronger than Tunnel's typically, which explains the disparity in price.
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Vislor

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 10:11:26 am »
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It's cool, I guess it depends on what's out there (as usual with all the cards!) as to when you buy it. I've just had some success with it, and a particularly nice game where it combined well with Adventurer...another unloved card that I am quite fond of in the right circumstances!
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 10:27:20 am »
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Vislor, just a fair warning before people will come here since you said Adventurer wasn't bad all the time. There are some people here that do think it's bad all the time. ;)
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SirPeebles

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 10:30:32 am »
+2

Vislor, just a fair warning before people will come here since you said Adventurer wasn't bad all the time. There are some people here that do think it's bad all the time. ;)

He could piledrive the Mandarins on a 5/2 split, then use Scout to pull Tunnel out of the deck, Mandarin to put it on top, and then Adventurer to discard it.
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pacovf

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 10:38:16 am »
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Vislor, just a fair warning before people will come here since you said Adventurer wasn't bad all the time. There are some people here that do think it's bad all the time. ;)

He could piledrive the Mandarins on a 5/2 split, then use Scout to pull Tunnel out of the deck, Mandarin to put it on top, and then Adventurer to discard it.

You are missing a +action there. I'd recommend homage tribute (damn me playing with non-English cards).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 07:39:41 pm by pacovf »
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Vislor

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 10:47:13 am »
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Adventurer can definitely work with high value treasures in your deck although it would definitely have been better with a +buy!
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Vislor

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 10:47:58 am »
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And you can discard multiple tunnels with it!
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Vislor

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 10:55:04 am »
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A combo of Spice Merchants, Adventurer and Tunnels would be quite good because you get to trash the coppers, draw Adventurers to play with the +action and discard Tunnels with that for the gold as well as pick up possibly 2 golds per turn with the Adventurer. Then if you use the +$2 + buy from the SM you get to buy more Tunnels and boom...pretty soon you've maxed out tunnels, golds and duchies ftw! :D
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shark_bait

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 11:15:40 am »
+2

The main issue with Adventurer is opportunity cost.  It's purpose conflicts with what else you can buy at $6 (Gold).  For Adventure to really be worth it you need an average money density of $1.5/Treasure card.  To get to that threshold you need to either (a) get rid of all your Copper and replace them with a little bit of better treasure or (b) obtain enough Silver/Gold that a play of Adventurer will net more than $3.  Because anytime you have Adventurer in hand it could have just been a Gold.  Most of the time Gold is preferable because you don't have to use an action and can instead play some other useful action card.

It's for this reason that Venture is thought to be a superior version of Adventurer.  It costs $5 so it doesn't conflict with Gold, combos with itself and doesn't take an action to use.

While I agree with your 3-card combo of Spice Merchant, Tunnel and Adventurer I find its relevance to be slim due to the low probability of having all three present.  And the fact of the matter is that compared to other Dominion cards Adventurer really doesn't combo that well.

Don't let a 3-card combo become a way that you define a good card.  Continue to figure out what cards work best and instead use a metric of how often you use a card given its availability.  And finally, take pride when you make a less often used card (Adventurer) help you win the game (e.g. your Tunnel/Spice Merchant scenario).  It's this intricate nature of card interactions that will make Dominion be my all time favorite game.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 11:28:23 am »
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Vislor is correct though that Adventurer can be good when "$6 for a Gold" isnt your only way of getting good treasures.  If you are getting Gold from Tunnel or Soothsayer for instance, or if you have access to other treasures like Fool's Gold, Platinum, or potentially even Philosopher's Stone.  Still, it is rare that all of this comes together.  And even then, Adventurer is rarely more than just a terminal source of cash.
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Vislor

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 11:39:09 am »
+3

I think the fact that you can Throne room/King's court/Procession an Adventurer also gives it some potential where Venture/Counterfeit/other treasures fall down. As you say though, it's not always gonna be that useful, but the fact that it's available in the game and will occasionally make a difference is what is so brilliant about Dominion!
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prom_vrt

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 12:59:12 pm »
+1

Tunnels are very powerful if some cards are present, such as Warehouse and Storeroom. However, when you draw Tunnel without them in your hand then Tunnel is another dead card (and then Warehouse will have to discard other cards for no effect).

Some cards that allows discarding, to illustrate Cartographer, Navigator, Oasis, Tactician, Catacombs, may not work perfectly with Tunnel. Cartographer and Navigator can discard Tunnel NOT in hand (so Tunnels in hand are dead). Tactician may force you to discard good cards (Gold) along with Tunnel. Catacombs may draw Tunnel in 4-6 next card of the deck. Venture, Golem, Adventurer does not guarantee discarding Tunnel before finishing revealing cards. (While Golem is still viable if you've at most 1 non-Golem action) So, with the presence of these cards it relies on your luck too, not always cause you to gain Golds.

It may not be a counter to discard attacks because you cannot rely on them playing when you've this in hand (and your opponent may declines to play it). The exception may be Goons that its +VP per buy is powerful.

To conclude, not every kingdom with cards allowing discarding causes Tunnel's reaction viable. And even with lack of discarding, Tunnel is only bought around the endgame for 2VPs only.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 01:00:54 pm by prom_vrt »
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 01:55:37 pm »
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I think Cartographer does work perfectly well with Tunnel, despite not discarding Tunnels from your hand. You have as good a chance of finding a Tunnel in the next 4 cards of your deck as you do of having another discarder (e.g., Oasis) with a Tunnel in the other 4 cards of your hand. Additionally, Cartographer can discard multiple Tunnels at once. The only downside is that it's a bit expensive at $5.

I also think that Tunnel is quite a good counter to the discard attacks, so much so that I might even pick one up in the absence of my own discarders. The Tunnel and discard attack are bound to line up at some point, and if my opponent instead declines to play the attack, he has paid the greater opportunity cost (we both have a dead card, but mine cost less and gives me VP). Has anyone looked at the viability of opening with Tunnel vs. Militia in the simulator? It's almost a 50% shot at T3/4 Gold, which would otherwise be especially difficult to pull off (due to Militia).
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2014, 02:05:30 pm »
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I think the fact that you can Throne room/King's court/Procession an Adventurer also gives it some potential where Venture/Counterfeit/other treasures fall down. As you say though, it's not always gonna be that useful, but the fact that it's available in the game and will occasionally make a difference is what is so brilliant about Dominion!

If TR, Procession, or KC are out, you should probably be trying to build an engine. Adventurer is not an engine card and is more of a BM card and thus does not work well with enginey cards like TR.
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GeoLib

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 03:40:02 pm »
+1

An important thing to note about pricing is that higher price =/= better card. See here. For example, Chapel is quite a bit stronger than lots of 3s and 4s, but it's priced at 2, so that it's guaranteed that everyone can open with it regardless of the split.
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 03:59:52 pm »
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I think the fact that you can Throne room/King's court/Procession an Adventurer also gives it some potential where Venture/Counterfeit/other treasures fall down. As you say though, it's not always gonna be that useful, but the fact that it's available in the game and will occasionally make a difference is what is so brilliant about Dominion!
I think you should definitely not be playing Adventurer and Throne Room in the same deck. Adventurer is useless in a slim deck and wants a lot of high-end Treasures in your deck, Throne Room is the most useful in a slim deck and doesn't want any Treasures in your deck, so there's a conflict between the two cards.


About Tunnel, it's extremely strong in the presence of Vault, Embassy, Rebuild or Storeroom and possibly useful in the presence of Cellar, Hamlet, Count, Cartographer, Inn, Oasis, Young Witch or Warehouse (the last two being the strongest of these). If there's a trash for benefit card (Remodel for example), it's very likely worth it even with those weaker enablers, but other than that, only if the kingdom is otherwise weak. Only go for Tunnel with an enabler that I didn't list here at all if you know exactly what you're doing and why.
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 04:10:57 pm »
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Rebuild/tunnel is kinda fun. You dont even have to buy the tunnels, just upgrade them. Then when you have no more estates, just cycle through your deck finding nothing (naming tunnel).
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 04:16:49 pm »
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Rebuild/tunnel is kinda fun. You dont even have to buy the tunnels, just upgrade them. Then when you have no more estates, just cycle through your deck finding nothing (naming tunnel).

That's like the Rube Goldberg way to get Provinces.
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2014, 04:19:35 pm »
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I think the fact that you can Throne room/King's court/Procession an Adventurer also gives it some potential where Venture/Counterfeit/other treasures fall down. As you say though, it's not always gonna be that useful, but the fact that it's available in the game and will occasionally make a difference is what is so brilliant about Dominion!
I think you should definitely not be playing Adventurer and Throne Room in the same deck. Adventurer is useless in a slim deck and wants a lot of high-end Treasures in your deck, Throne Room is the most useful in a slim deck and doesn't want any Treasures in your deck, so there's a conflict between the two cards.


About Tunnel, it's extremely strong in the presence of Vault, Embassy, Rebuild or Storeroom and possibly useful in the presence of Cellar, Hamlet, Count, Cartographer, Inn, Oasis, Young Witch or Warehouse (the last two being the strongest of these). If there's a trash for benefit card (Remodel for example), it's very likely worth it even with those weaker enablers, but other than that, only if the kingdom is otherwise weak. Only go for Tunnel with an enabler that I didn't list here at all if you know exactly what you're doing and why.

On the topic of "know exactly what you're doing", I remember a game I played against hvb, in which he really surprised me by building a deck in which Farming Village was a reliable Tunnel enabler: draw whole deck, gain Tunnel(s), play Farming Village to gain Gold(s), draw and Counterfeit the Gold(s).
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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2014, 04:22:17 pm »
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An important thing to note about pricing is that higher price =/= better card. See here. For example, Chapel is quite a bit stronger than lots of 3s and 4s, but it's priced at 2, so that it's guaranteed that everyone can open with it regardless of the split.

This. The difference between $3 and $4 is that at $3 you can get one literally every turn, plus gain them with Upgrade/Remake/Hermit. It makes a difference if the card gets too strong when you spam it. But with Tunnel, you definitely need other cards to do anything useful with your Tunnels, so you're limited more by the buys than the coin cost anyway.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Tunnel
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2014, 04:36:25 pm »
+2

About Tunnel, it's extremely strong in the presence of Vault, Embassy, Rebuild or Storeroom and possibly useful in the presence of Cellar, Hamlet, Count, Cartographer, Inn, Oasis, Young Witch or Warehouse (the last two being the strongest of these). If there's a trash for benefit card (Remodel for example), it's very likely worth it even with those weaker enablers, but other than that, only if the kingdom is otherwise weak. Only go for Tunnel with an enabler that I didn't list here at all if you know exactly what you're doing and why.

This is pretty good except Warehouse should be at the top of the first list, Young Witch should be in the first list, and Rebuild should probably not be mentioned at all, maybe it's good enough to go in the honorable mentions. It's easy to activate Tunnels with Rebuild, but there's not a lot to do with all the Golds in a Rebuild deck. It's still very hard to buy Provinces and you usually just slow down your Rebuilding.
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