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Author Topic: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?  (Read 21668 times)

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ehunt

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2011, 11:21:16 am »
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Two unrelated comments:

1. When I compete against a player who is much stronger than me, I find that they tend to fall into two different types (admittedly this is vague). One is the type that just doesn't make mistakes. The other is the type that somehow outclasses or transcends my thinking about the game. When I manage to beat class one it's because I also don't make mistakes myself (usually easy big money boards), or because I try a high-variance strategy; I don't beat class two very often at all.

2. Completely separate: I think there is too much emphasis on the distinction between engine and non-engine strategies. It can be helpful to think of them as not falling into a dichotomy. One of the worst boards for me is: there's goons, but there's not really extra actions; there's... kinda... extra card draw... sorta? but man... goons... These aren't good boards for engine players or for big money players; they're good boards for people who understand the fundamental mechanics of the game.
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Geronimoo

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2011, 11:34:00 am »
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The Goons board without Villages is actually quite simple: race to the Goons, buy about 3 of them then alternate buying Goons and Golds. If you have other terminals you'll buy 2 Goons then start alternating. Yes, you're going to have a lot of collisions, but Goons is so much better than Gold that you can't avoid it. I guess that's where your frustration comes from.
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chwhite

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2011, 12:22:58 pm »
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I played Magic a bunch in middle school, around the bad old days of Visions and Weatherlight.  Never competitively.  Haven't kept up with it since, though I've played a couple of games here and there with the old cards.
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chwhite

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2011, 12:54:51 pm »
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I'm not one of those players that "never makes mistakes": I often flub up; I buy Gold when I'm greening, I frequently break PPR and even suicide on the last Province.  I'm not the best at Big Money (WanderingWinder regularly beats me) or even at massive chaining (I've seen much better, more consistent engine building out of players like KP-funclub and the cat emoticon).

I think that I do have a very good sense of when to go money and when to go engine.  Before I got on isotropic I had become pretty good at avoiding terminal clashes and won many of my early games with modified BM, but had no idea about the power of even obviously good cards like Minion and Torturer and Lab.  Then I started going engine-crazy with Prosperity and Cornucopia, and jumped up a bunch of levels, and have been playing money a bit more now with Hinterlands.  I think that overall strategic sense of "when to go long" and "when to go short" is probably the best thing about my game, though of course even there I screw up from time to time. 

It's hard for me to go further without getting into the weeds of specific cards I've gotten really good at maximizing value from; one thing that I think has served me really well is keeping in mind that Provinces and Colonies are not the be-all and end-all, and if I can build an engine that keeps its strength even as it amasses points then I will invariably do so, and usually do well.  Vineyards and the three VP chip cards are particularly good for this.  (Dukes are very bad at this, OTOH, and it should thus come as no surprise I lost most Duke games.)  Take a look at the top five cards in my "Effect Without" list to see this principle in action. :P
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 01:09:43 pm by chwhite »
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mathguy

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2011, 02:07:33 pm »
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1. When I compete against a player who is much stronger than me, I find that they tend to fall into two different types (admittedly this is vague). One is the type that just doesn't make mistakes. The other is the type that somehow outclasses or transcends my thinking about the game. When I manage to beat class one it's because I also don't make mistakes myself (usually easy big money boards), or because I try a high-variance strategy; I don't beat class two very often at all.

One of the tricks I learned from drafting a lot of Magic was to keep a d8 with you while you play your matches. Every time you make a mistake/misplay notch up one on the d8 (you forgot to do something at EOT, you played things in the wrong order, etc.). This should give you a strong numerical sense of how many small mistakes you are making. Then you try to lower this every time you play. You'd be amazed at how well this works. When I started using this I was at about 4-5 errors a match, and now I am regularly at 0-1 errors per match.

This doesn't teach you how to draft well, but it teaches you to play properly the cards you do have.
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KristianBahle

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2011, 03:42:03 pm »
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I used to play a lot of Magic but I wasn't a really good player, I only played in 3 nationals and 1 PT back in 2004. I am really curious about discovering some of your identities !

In case you haven't noticed, matignon is the real Guillaume Matignon who was still the reigning world champion a couple of weeks ago ;)
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painted_cow

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2011, 03:55:09 pm »
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Sry for bit off topic but, some real names would be fun, when we have that many Magic players here :-)

Maybe a new thread?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 03:58:17 pm by painted_cow »
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Geronimoo

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2011, 03:58:09 pm »
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I've seen Jeroen Remie and Chad Ellis online (their nicks = their name). And I've seen Randy Buehler playing Dominion on a youtube video against theory.
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Davio

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2011, 05:52:26 am »
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Sry for bit off topic but, some real names would be fun, when we have that many Magic players here :-)

Maybe a new thread?
I never took to Magic or any other CCG, mostly because I didn't want to spend insane amounts of money on cards and have to keep buying new ones when they come out to be at least a competitive player.

This is why Dominion was ideal for me, because I still liked the deck-building/card drafting idea. But Dominion gives both players an equal chance by making the same cards available to each player.
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Marcus316

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2011, 08:40:49 am »
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This is a great outpouring of interesting ideas for a level 10 like myself. I, too, have been a MTG player for a long time (though never competitively).

@mathguy - that d8 mistake tracking is interesting. I might just try doing that in my Dominion games, as I frequently make play mistakes and kick myself immediately after. I might need to start with a spindown d20, though, given the number of mistakes I make at the moment. :)
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rls22

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2011, 04:37:36 pm »
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Interesting to hear that some of the other 40+ people don't actually feel like they're "the best" at Dominion.  I sort of wonder how on earth I got to be a lvl 40... I make plenty of mistakes, usually due to lack of concentration (I get easily distracted when opponents play long turns) or discipline (e.g., buying cards that are "good cards" but don't support my strategy).  I would wager the difference between me and a 45 is fewer of those mistakes and the ability to be truly creative in thinking about card combinations.  I'm just not that creative of a player....  This was borne out when Hinterlands was released -- I dropped a bunch of levels, because it took me awhile to really figure out how those cards could work together with others (I kept trying different combos, particularly with Highway, that were....  unsuccessful).

What I do have going for me is probably an intuitive sense of what my deck really needs at any given time (e.g., how many terminals it can support) and how many green cards it can handle (e.g., when to start buying duchies).  And lots of experience playing games, so I've been exposed to more good combos that I've added to my arsenal....
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Elyv

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Re: What makes a level 45 player stronger than a level 40 player?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2011, 05:51:46 pm »
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Interesting to hear that some of the other 40+ people don't actually feel like they're "the best" at Dominion.  I sort of wonder how on earth I got to be a lvl 40... I make plenty of mistakes, usually due to lack of concentration (I get easily distracted when opponents play long turns) or discipline (e.g., buying cards that are "good cards" but don't support my strategy).  I would wager the difference between me and a 45 is fewer of those mistakes and the ability to be truly creative in thinking about card combinations.  I'm just not that creative of a player....  This was borne out when Hinterlands was released -- I dropped a bunch of levels, because it took me awhile to really figure out how those cards could work together with others (I kept trying different combos, particularly with Highway, that were....  unsuccessful).

What I do have going for me is probably an intuitive sense of what my deck really needs at any given time (e.g., how many terminals it can support) and how many green cards it can handle (e.g., when to start buying duchies).  And lots of experience playing games, so I've been exposed to more good combos that I've added to my arsenal....
This is exactly how I feel as well.
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