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Author Topic: Season two - Game reports & discussion: C  (Read 13157 times)

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AdamH

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2014, 08:26:28 pm »
+2

AdamH 3 games, theblankman 3 games

Going into this match, theblankman and I are the bottom two people in our division, so we're both looking for a big win here to get us out of demotion territory. Neither of us really found what we were looking for with a tie.

Entire stream on Twitch     YouTube video playlist


Game 1: theblankman 36, AdamH 24
Game log     Twitch highlight     YouTube video
Kingdom Cards: Herbalist, Apothecary, Watchtower, Militia, Pirate Ship, Plaza, Contraband, Counting House, Inn, Saboteur

So this one is mostly a mirror, as we both go for Plaza/Watchtower with Herbalist. He opens with a Militia and I go more directly for Plazas. After winning the Plaza split 6/4 I decide to build more and he goes for green (imagine that, Adam building more). I thought Counting House could provide a nice kick for this engine but that never really worked out, so I couldn't make the comeback I needed.

The driver behind my decision to build more was mostly my overestimation of Plaza/Watchtower. After this game I really don't think it's all that good. Like at all. With no trashing I feel like it's worse than Big Money, and with trashing it desperately needs some fantastic support to really be viable, given that engines based on draw-to-X tend to stall badly. I overestimated the sifting abilities of Plaza and Inn here for supporting this (though in a thin deck maybe Inn is enough?)

The chat was talking about using Saboteur as payload (instead of Counting House) which seems interesting -- I'd be much more tempted to do that if there was some thinning around so you could more reliably play more Saboteurs. I wonder if that's fast enough here...


Game 2: theblankman 33, AdamH 18
Game log     Twitch highlight     YouTube video
Kingdom Cards: Poor House, Urchin, Workshop, Envoy, Fortress, Taxman, Journeyman, Minion, Saboteur, Grand Market

Well this game comes down to who can collide their Urchins first. Fortunately we both miss on the first shuffle so at that point the playing field is relatively even. Unfortunately I buy Silvers and a Taxman and a Workshop while he picks up fortresses and Minions, and without surprise, his deck comes together more quickly.

Now there was a tiny bit of luck involved, since he didn't seem to hit $3, but I lost focus here...

Quote
<stef_42> bye all... and good luck to adam and hope he plays better.... at least I've seen him play much better then this in the past

I'm certainly capable of making better decisions than I made in this game, that's for sure. I got a couple of unfortunate draws (we both did) and I failed to adapt to the situation and ended up just making it worse. He stayed focused on getting where he needed to go as quickly as possible and won because of it.

There's some disagreement over what exactly was bad in the chat. Some people like the Workshop, some people like the Taxman. Nobody particularly likes the Silvers. I think Fortresses and nothing else would probably have been best in general but I certainly did something far from that so I deserved to lose this game.


Game 3: theblankman 3, AdamH -3
Game log     Twitch highlight     YouTube video
Kingdom Cards: Menagerie, Warehouse, Philosopher's Stone, Bridge, Coppersmith, Death Cart, Mining Village, Apprentice, Ill-Gotten Gains, Witch

Menagerie/Warehouse (fanfic anyone?) with a Village/Bridge payload is the name of the game here. But you have Witch/IGG to deal with and Apprentice as the only trashing. He opens Silver/Silver and I open Warehouse/Bridge (close call between Bridge and Silver for me, but I don't think it ends up mattering all that much). He hits $5 on both T3 and T4 and I hit $5 on T4 after shuffling, so this is a huge setback.

Does that make my opening wrong? Well the chat is divided between Silver/Warehouse and Mining Village/Warehouse for what they think is best. In any case, this is a bad draw.

I get behind on the Curse split badly and the game is pretty much over from there -- but given my bad draw I think I could have reacted better. I think hedging between trashing and attacking certainly wasn't going to win me the game, I should have gone for all-out attack or all-out thinning to give myself a chance to get back in it and I did neither of those things. Meanwhile theblankman is taking his lead and keeping his foot all the way down on the gas to minimize my chance of catching up, so well played by him.


AAAAAANNNNDDD once again Twitch has lost the rest of the stream. What's going on here? This is a serious issue, jeez.


Game 4: AdamH 42, theblankman 24
Game log
Kingdom Cards: Apothecary, Oasis, Swindler, Bishop, Bureaucrat, Butcher, Market, Soothsayer, Trading Post, Altar

No village and no real draw (other than Apothecary) mean that an engine isn't really viable here, plus there's Swindler vs. Soothsayer and a couple of decent trashing options. How do you play this? Probably tactically.

He opens 5/2 and gets a Soothsayer, which I don't really like -- I couldn't have gotten away from the allure of a T1 Trading Post. I open double Swindler in response. He plays his Soothsayer once before the Swindlers find it and I pick up an early Trading Post. From this point he's behind and I ride that lead to the end, with my terminals nicely showing up in different hands for the most part.

The chat points out a couple of tactical mistakes I made and discusses the possibility of building an Apothecary deck.


Game 5: AdamH 45, theblankman 38
Game log
Kingdom Cards: Stonemason, Advisor, Conspirator, Feast, Cache, Laboratory, Rogue, Royal Seal, Harem, Hoard

Harem/Hoard and not much else going on other than Stonemason and Labs. I hit $7 on T3 for a nice SM/double Lab and have an edge the whole game. Nothing else really to write about here, except that at one point I say Royal Seal is terrible, not taking into account the synergy DG found...

Quote
<dg_twitch> royal seal good with hoards and harems


Game 6: AdamH 45, theblankman 23
Game log
Kingdom Cards: Poor House, Black Market, Bridge, Caravan, Marauder, Talisman, Baker, Cache, Tribute, Hunting Grounds
Black Market Deck: Junk Dealer, Tunnel, Embassy, Stonemason, Armory, Herald, Venture, Beggar, Highway, Minion, Royal Seal, Hamlet, Journeyman, Walled Village, Margrave, Festival, Mandarin, Throne Room, Candlestick Maker, Contraband, Count, Lookout, Market Square, City, Treasure Map

To BM or not to BM? That is the question. After a couple of minutes of irrational rage that Black Market exists, I decide that since there's a junking attack outside of the BM deck, and since trashing and Villages have to come from the Black Market (BM) deck, that I'm not going to go for it and instead play Big Money (BM) with the good enablers on the board. He goes for Black Market so it's BM vs. BM.

He gets a 5 Count out of the BM deck, which is just about the best he could have hoped for, but it never really comes together for him and I get many many Provinces. The chat (and theblankman and I after the game) debate whether or not Black Market is worth it here; the jury is out but I feel really good about the strategy I played and how I played it.


After the match, theblankman, the chat and I have a nice long convo about General Dominion philosophy which I do my best to capture on the stream, so you can watch that there and/or read the chat (though I'm speaking my parts of the argument so maybe reading the chat isn't super-effective). Or at least that's what I would have said except Twitch seems to be losing the last half of all of my streams recently, wth? Thanks to everyone involved in that discussion, and thanks to theblankman for the match. Maybe we'll meet next season in Division D :-\
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 12:05:51 pm by AdamH »
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theblankman

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2014, 02:59:27 am »
0

I agree with a lot of Adam's analysis, my two cents where it's different from his...

The chat was talking about using Saboteur as payload (instead of Counting House) which seems interesting -- I'd be much more tempted to do that if there was some thinning around so you could more reliably play more Saboteurs. I wonder if that's fast enough here...
I'm not sure you overestimated Plaza/Watchtower/Inn as badly as you think.  We both cycled through our decks fairly well, the real problem was a lack of good payload.  I'm not a fan of Counting House in a draw-to-X engine because you don't really want to play it until you're done drawing, have to be careful about shuffles, etc.  The payload you really want is action-money, which on this board meant Pirate Ship or Militia.  I briefly considered Pirate Ship, but figured if you were going for the engine too then I didn't want to trash your copper.  I'm tempted to try variations of this board with slightly better payload: maybe Storeroom or Haggler instead of Militia. 

There's some disagreement over what exactly was bad in the chat. Some people like the Workshop, some people like the Taxman. Nobody particularly likes the Silvers. I think Fortresses and nothing else would probably have been best in general but I certainly did something far from that so I deserved to lose this game.
Obviously I didn't think the Taxman or the Workshop was necessary.  After we gained our first mercs on the same shuffle, the next race was for the expensive pieces, Minion and GM, and I just kept hitting $5+ to win that.  If I'd seen $3 or less at that stage, I probably would've just gone with silver, though a second Poor House might have been okay too. 

I get behind on the Curse split badly and the game is pretty much over from there
Yeah, I felt like despite the Menagerie synergies and Village/Bridge, the deciding factor here would be who had the cleaner/thinner deck.  That's why I opened silver/silver, I wanted to start hitting $5 early and often to give you curses and get rid of my own junk.  To me Witch and Apprentice were the key cards, with IGG helping to ensure a lopsided curse split and then serving as Apprentice fuel.

He opens 5/2 and gets a Soothsayer, which I don't really like -- I couldn't have gotten away from the allure of a T1 Trading Post. I open double Swindler in response. He plays his Soothsayer once before the Swindlers find it and I pick up an early Trading Post. From this point he's behind and I ride that lead to the end, with my terminals nicely showing up in different hands for the most part.
In retrospect I don't like my Soothsayer either, should have gone Trading Post.  Not sure that tilts the game back my way though, those Swindlers hurt me quite a bit. 

Harem/Hoard and not much else going on other than Stonemason and Labs. I hit $7 on T3 for a nice SM/double Lab and have an edge the whole game. Nothing else really to write about here, except that at one point I say Royal Seal is terrible, not taking into account the synergy DG found...

Quote
<dg_twitch> royal seal good with hoards and harems
Yeah I felt like I was behind as soon as you got that double Lab and just never caught up.  And I guess DG's right about royal seal but I think I'd still buy Lab first. 

To BM or not to BM? That is the question. After a couple of minutes of irrational rage that Black Market exists, I decide that since there's a junking attack outside of the BM deck, and since trashing and Villages have to come from the Black Market (BM) deck, that I'm not going to go for it and instead play Big Money (BM) with the good enablers on the board. He goes for Black Market so it's BM vs. BM.

He gets a 5 Count out of the BM deck, which is just about the best he could have hoped for, but it never really comes together for him and I get many many Provinces. The chat (and theblankman and I after the game) debate whether or not Black Market is worth it here; the jury is out but I feel really good about the strategy I played and how I played it.
I'm still not sure how worthwhile Black Market is here.  Your strategy and play were very solid.  I saw a junker on the board, several trashers among other good cards in the BM deck, and just took a flyer on it.  In retrospect I think if I'm gonna buy one BM, I probably should buy two and try to build some kind of engine from the cards in there.  That still wouldn't necessarily beat Money+Caravan+Marauder though. 

Thanks to everyone involved in that discussion, and thanks to theblankman for the match. Maybe we'll meet next season in Division D :-\
Hey we could still get out of the cellar with strong finishes... but yeah, I smell relegation too.  Oh well.  Thanks for the games!
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AdamH

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2014, 08:09:09 am »
0

To BM or not to BM? That is the question. After a couple of minutes of irrational rage that Black Market exists, I decide that since there's a junking attack outside of the BM deck, and since trashing and Villages have to come from the Black Market (BM) deck, that I'm not going to go for it and instead play Big Money (BM) with the good enablers on the board. He goes for Black Market so it's BM vs. BM.

He gets a 5 Count out of the BM deck, which is just about the best he could have hoped for, but it never really comes together for him and I get many many Provinces. The chat (and theblankman and I after the game) debate whether or not Black Market is worth it here; the jury is out but I feel really good about the strategy I played and how I played it.
I'm still not sure how worthwhile Black Market is here.  Your strategy and play were very solid.  I saw a junker on the board, several trashers among other good cards in the BM deck, and just took a flyer on it.  In retrospect I think if I'm gonna buy one BM, I probably should buy two and try to build some kind of engine from the cards in there.  That still wouldn't necessarily beat Money+Caravan+Marauder though. 

Part of the discussion in the chat between MQ, WW and I was about Black Market strategies in general -- they said that once you saw you weren't going to be contested on BM you definitely should have gotten at least one more Black Market. It's rough, though, because the only villages were in the BM deck, and you can't exactly ignore Marauder, and you got a terminal trasher, so that weakens BM.


Harem/Hoard and not much else going on other than Stonemason and Labs. I hit $7 on T3 for a nice SM/double Lab and have an edge the whole game. Nothing else really to write about here, except that at one point I say Royal Seal is terrible, not taking into account the synergy DG found...

Quote
<dg_twitch> royal seal good with hoards and harems
Yeah I felt like I was behind as soon as you got that double Lab and just never caught up.  And I guess DG's right about royal seal but I think I'd still buy Lab first. 

I'm referring to a point in the midgame, right before greening, where Lab didn't quite feel right. You'd be able to know exactly what I'm talking about except Twitch lost the video for that game. Ugh.

I mean I guess it's good that other streamers I know are having this same issue, so that way I know it's not something I'm doing wrong and it's something that should get fixed, but still. Ugh.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 08:15:03 am by AdamH »
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DG

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2014, 08:10:48 am »
+2

Here's the comments on my games with qmech. Logs above.

#1 - Duchess, Herbalist, Loan, Philosopher's Stone, Fortress, Silk Road, Trader, Merchant Guild, Rabble, Vault, Shelters

How often do you see philosopher's stone vs merchant guild? Anyway there's a few options here. The engine looked troublesome to me with the extra buy on the merchant guild, reliance on fortresses, and I didn't like getting income with loan and duchess. Having seen qmech open vault I had to consider vaults and treasure. I didn't fancy beating him at that from 4/3  so I chose philosopher's stone instead. I wasn't optimistic but I thought the 2 for 1 from the vault, keeping treasures from hand to hand, herbalists giving options on silk roads, might all be useful and it worked out, 8 provinces in 20 turns.

#2 - Apothecary, Warehouse, Bureaucrat, Farming Village, Feast, Island, Remodel, Border Village, Hunting Grounds, Possession

This was a pure possession game with excellent drawing. Starting with apothecary is easy but finishing was always likely to be difficult. The key was qmech buying a silver, since my deck could never reach 8 coins for a province and we were going to get the majority of gains from the possessed decks. He saw this problem afterwards and tried to remedy it with islands but possessions hit so often that I got to use the islands instead and took control.

#3 - Hamlet, Ironworks, Rats, Remodel, Smithy, Thief, Counterfeit, Ill-Gotten Gains, Minion, Stables

There's quite a lot of options here but we both go for the same thing, remodel rats to minions with hamlets, but I take a bad detour with other cards and the game moves on too quickly. I actually had a chance to pile out the rats to win by one point but I'd just got too much junk in my deck. Maybe if I'd played a remodel just to use it up I might have got there, undeservedly.

#4 - Pawn, Masquerade, Warehouse, Cutpurse, Fortress, Moneylender, Smithy, City, Minion, Treasury

This started as masquerade and minions and I thought I was ahead until the minions split and I just had too much junk left in my deck. I conjured another plan to put pressure on with cutpurse then masquerade, trying to get a good card passed to me. With this in mind I built the engine a bit more and caused enough minor deterioration, getting a masquerade and silvers, for me to pull back for a draw. I'm guessing we both needed to build more after the minions split.

5# - Beggar, Great Hall, Hermit, Advisor, Herald, Sea Hag, Tournament, Apprentice, Merchant Guild, Shleters

Opening hermit/hermit to get a turn six province in a tournament game? Yes I'll take that with good trashing, thank you. It took a while for followers to follow but the tide was unlikely to turn.

6# - Lighthouse, Apothecary, Contraband, Counterfeit, Rabble, Rogue, Adventurer, Hunting Grounds, Bank, Forge

I'm guessing we both overcomplicated this a little but the cards are a bit of a misfit. Apothecary and bank don't go with lighthouse, counterfeit, and rabble, but we bought them all anyway. qmech had a bad early draw for the apothecary so I took an early lead and held it. I'm sure there are other options here but I can't seem to focus on this one.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 01:27:29 pm by DG »
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theblankman

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2014, 10:10:12 am »
+1

Part of the discussion in the chat between MQ, WW and I was about Black Market strategies in general -- they said that once you saw you weren't going to be contested on BM you definitely should have gotten at least one more Black Market. It's rough, though, because the only villages were in the BM deck, and you can't exactly ignore Marauder, and you got a terminal trasher, so that weakens BM.
A second BM would've felt like a lot of terminals with Marauder and Count already in the mix.  If I got Lookout or Junk Dealer instead of Count it would've been easier to swallow the second BM and go looking for engine pieces.  But it still would've been hard to keep up with your deck.

I'm referring to a point in the midgame, right before greening, where Lab didn't quite feel right. You'd be able to know exactly what I'm talking about except Twitch lost the video for that game. Ugh.
Ahh yeah, looking at the log I can see how it might be good for either of us to grab Royal Seal on turn 12 (instead of your last Lab or my first Harem).
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Titandrake

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2014, 01:21:01 pm »
0

On the Herbalist, Apothecary, Watchtower, Militia, Pirate Ship, Plaza, Contraband, Counting House, Inn, Saboteur board, I wonder if the Apothecary engine is good enough. It would probably be something like open Herbalist/Potion, get Apothecaries and Plazas.

Downside is that you can't pick up Watchtower besides for the topdecking once you get going, so the Plaza/Watchtower engine is free to Militia as much as they want without fear, whereas you can still get Militia, but it won't be as amazing. Still, the faster build-up early might make it worth it, and it can probably support Saboteur as the attack/terminal instead of Militia.
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theblankman

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2014, 01:28:48 pm »
0

Game 3: theblankman 3, AdamH -3
Game log     Twitch highlight     YouTube video
Kingdom Cards: Menagerie, Warehouse, Philosopher's Stone, Bridge, Coppersmith, Death Cart, Mining Village, Apprentice, Ill-Gotten Gains, Witch

Menagerie/Warehouse (fanfic anyone?) with a Village/Bridge payload is the name of the game here. But you have Witch/IGG to deal with and Apprentice as the only trashing. He opens Silver/Silver and I open Warehouse/Bridge (close call between Bridge and Silver for me, but I don't think it ends up mattering all that much). He hits $5 on both T3 and T4 and I hit $5 on T4 after shuffling, so this is a huge setback.

Does that make my opening wrong? Well the chat is divided between Silver/Warehouse and Mining Village/Warehouse for what they think is best. In any case, this is a bad draw.
After thinking about it more, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I don't like opening Warehouse if the goal is to buy and play Witch ASAP.  Warehouse causes a T4 shuffle unless you decline to play it, or it falls to T5, so opening with it is kind of a bet that you'll hit T3 Witch.  If you do, you're ahead, if not you're behind, assuming I shuffle a Witch and something else useful going into my T5.  Maybe Silver/Bridge or Silver/MV is better than double silver, but if I played this kingdom again I still think I'd wait until at least T3/T4 to buy Warehouse.
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JW

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2014, 04:51:03 pm »
+1

Game 3: theblankman 3, AdamH -3
Game log     Twitch highlight     YouTube video
Kingdom Cards: Menagerie, Warehouse, Philosopher's Stone, Bridge, Coppersmith, Death Cart, Mining Village, Apprentice, Ill-Gotten Gains, Witch

Menagerie/Warehouse (fanfic anyone?) with a Village/Bridge payload is the name of the game here. But you have Witch/IGG to deal with and Apprentice as the only trashing. He opens Silver/Silver and I open Warehouse/Bridge (close call between Bridge and Silver for me, but I don't think it ends up mattering all that much). He hits $5 on both T3 and T4 and I hit $5 on T4 after shuffling, so this is a huge setback.

After thinking about it more, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I don't like opening Warehouse if the goal is to buy and play Witch ASAP.  Warehouse causes a T4 shuffle unless you decline to play it, or it falls to T5, so opening with it is kind of a bet that you'll hit T3 Witch.  If you do, you're ahead, if not you're behind, assuming I shuffle a Witch and something else useful going into my T5.  Maybe Silver/Bridge or Silver/MV is better than double silver, but if I played this kingdom again I still think I'd wait until at least T3/T4 to buy Warehouse.

My calculation is that the chance for Warehouse-Silver to get $5 on turn 3 is about 46.5-47%.

In comparison, the chance that a Warehouse-Silver opening doesn't have Witch in its next shuffle, either because it played Warehouse on turn 3 and missed $5, or because it didn't hit $5 on turn 3 and couldn't hit $5 on turn 4 without playing Warehouse (assuming that you wouldn't play Warehouse if you had it with $5 on turn 4) is about 47.5-48%.

A Silver-Silver opening has a 91.2% chance to hit $5 at least once, and has a 14.9% chance to hit $5 twice. The openings seem close. http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/09/basic-opening-probabilities/ 

In the actual game, Adam needed a second (and maybe a third) Apprentice.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 05:31:15 pm by JW »
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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2014, 05:42:59 pm »
0

Was just about to link that article before you edited it in :)  So like I said, Adam took a chance and I took the almost-sure thing.  I know I was lucky to hit 5 twice, but if my T3/T4 buys are say, Witch/Warehouse instead of Witch/Apprentice, I'm still happy to get a good start on cursing and a bit of economy to pick up Apprentices and another Witch.
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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2014, 07:00:31 pm »
+1

Me vs soulnet, 3-3, I need a bit of help to avoid relegation now but that's mostly my fault.  At least we got some fun kingdoms...

Game 1



Code: [Select]
Hermit, Bureaucrat, Farming Village, JackOfAllTrades, Procession, Salvager, Throne Room, Cache, Cartographer, Rogue
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140810/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1407701196394.txt

Probably our least interesting game, just Jack really.  I luck out when soulnet stalls at the end.

Game 2



Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Fool's Gold, Native Village, Workshop, Apprentice, City, Governor, Horn of Plenty, Inn, Laboratory
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140810/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1407702154313.txt

Much more fun!  Lots going on here: Plenty of draw options; Apprentice for a little trashing; and Gov, HoP or FG (with CSM's +Buy) as possible payloads.  soulnet goes for the HoP megaturn, I go Fool's Gold.  With 9 FG and some draw I'm able to build a lead before he can go off.  I'm not sure either strategy was optimal, after the game we considered whether a Gov mega might beat us.

Game 3



Code: [Select]
Shanty Town, Baron, Caravan, Pirate Ship, Golem, Counting House, Ill-Gotten Gains, Margrave, Grand Market, King's Court
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140810/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1407702899161.txt

Huge engine potential, but IGG and no trashing.  soulnet goes for the engine anyway, and I guess IGG and bad luck combine to stunt his buildup.  I was very surprised that he never got a KC. 

Game 4



Code: [Select]
Chancellor, Coppersmith, Death Cart, Gardens, Herald, Worker's Village, Mountebank, Royal Seal, Stash, Farmland
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140810/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1407703713045.txt

Gardens and assorted ways to get extra cards.  I think it was a mistake for me to skip Chancellor (how often do you hear that?).  soulnet correctly starts buying Gardens first, wins the split and rolls to victory from there.  Well played by him. 

Game 5



Code: [Select]
Swindler, Tunnel, Ironmonger, Moneylender, Navigator, Nomad Camp, Contraband, Market, Mountebank, Rabble
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140810/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1407704742873.txt

Another kingdom of junk attacks and no trashing.  Opening Mountebank is hard to deal with here, but I try it with double Swindler.  Probably should've got a Mountebank of my own at some point.  I never really recover from the early Mountebank hits.  In retrospect, once I knew soulnet had a 5/2, maybe I should've opened Nomad Camp and gambled on a T2 Mountebank of my own.  It didn't occur to me at the time, and I'm not sure it's better than double Swindler, just a random post-game thought. 

Game 6



Code: [Select]
Squire, Stonemason, Masterpiece, Watchtower, Alchemist, Cartographer, Catacombs, Hunting Party, Torturer, Border Village
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140810/log.516d33dbe4b082c74d7b39fa.1407706070340.txt

Another engine board with all sorts of tricks around Stonemason, Squire and Watchtower.  I have trouble hitting $6 early for Border Village, wind up without enough villages to support my terminals, and Stonemason helps soulnet rush piles for a nice quick win.  Even though I felt dead by turn 8, this was a pretty fun game, it's just one of those games where the outcome is decided quickly. 

Games 2 and 3 in particular are kingdoms I'd like to try again.  As always thoughts and comments are welcome!  Thanks for the games soulnet and everyone else in C2! 
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silverspawn

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2014, 07:19:37 pm »
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g1: jack
g2: I think you go Governor here. It definitely beats FG, because of the silver flood, and HoP megaturn should just be slower.
g3: now that's the most interesting one. I like engine here, but I don't like the way soulnet built it. I would open silver/baron and go for KC's. If you play against and IGG rush, probably add a golem. that's the only way to safely connect engine pieces. It'll be very slow, but the payload on perfect turns is just massive. You should be able to catch up even when you fall far behind in points. Definitely don't open caravan.
g4: that looks solid. I don't really see why chancellor is good though.
g5: you definitely should've gotten a mount too. don't open NC though. it's 40% to get a mount, and even then it's not great because you have 2 terminals, and if it doesn't work it's just awful. swinder/swindler or swindler/silver.
g6: cute board; you both got the right ideas.
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theblankman

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2014, 07:50:19 pm »
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g2: FG + Apprentice doesn't just chop the Silver to draw?

g3: If g2 is as clear-cut for Governor as you say then this is definitely the most interesting.  soulnet mentioned that he considered Shanty Town/Baron as an opening, and in a few test games that has served me pretty well.  Why Silver over ST?

g4: Chancellor potentially reshuffles Mountebank(s) to get played more often in the early game.  Later when you're slogging to the finish, if you track your deck well you can reshuffle when bad hands are coming.  Maybe it's not great, but at worst it's terminal silver in a deck that will get fat enough for low collision risk.
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

soulnet

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2014, 08:02:55 pm »
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g2: FG + Apprentice doesn't just chop the Silver to draw?

g3: If g2 is as clear-cut for Governor as you say then this is definitely the most interesting.  soulnet mentioned that he considered Shanty Town/Baron as an opening, and in a few test games that has served me pretty well.  Why Silver over ST?

g4: Chancellor potentially reshuffles Mountebank(s) to get played more often in the early game.  Later when you're slogging to the finish, if you track your deck well you can reshuffle when bad hands are coming.  Maybe it's not great, but at worst it's terminal silver in a deck that will get fat enough for low collision risk.

For g3, at this point I am convinced that ST/Baron is the way to open for the engine. I don't like Silver if you can afford to skip it, and here it seems likely enough to get from Baron to Gold directly (possibly via Margrave).

In g4, Chancellor also adds variance (getting it in T3 is really good), and that is good for me as 2nd player. But mostly, tracking your few good cards in a bloated deck is not hard, so using it mid-deck will be good half the times. Given the inherent high variance of slog decks, the difference between one half of the deck and the other can be significant to make those Chancellor plays worthwhile.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2014, 01:31:37 am »
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The Governor-Apprentice game reminds me of a trick I learned on Iso: gain golds with Governor to use as draw fuel with apprentice. It's kinda like Apprentice-Market Square.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2014, 07:24:32 am »
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Quote
Why Silver over ST?

well baron is a terminal, st is a pseudo-terminal, so that's why.

Quote
The Governor-Apprentice game reminds me of a trick I learned on Iso: gain golds with Governor to use as draw fuel with apprentice. It's kinda like Apprentice-Market Square.
it's nowhere near as strong though.
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SCSN

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2014, 07:41:22 am »
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Baron/ST > Caravan/ST > Baron/Silver.

It's true that Baron/Silver will get you the best T3+T4 on average, but it's a quick and dirty fix; in engines without trashing you really want 0 Silvers if you can at all get a way with, and with Baron out there you certainly can.
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theblankman

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2014, 11:39:09 am »
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If Baron misses on the ST/Baron opening, do you play it anyway and gain an estate to increase your collision chance on the next shuffle?  I found in test games that once the engine is finally built, drawing your deck with KC'd Margraves and Caravans is no problem, and Caravan's duration effect gives you a nice big starting hand to make connecting KCs easier, so I'm thinking one extra Estate might be tolerable.  The tricky part for me was making sure I didn't get more than one or two KCs stuck in duration-land each turn (I think ideally you want to leave one KC with 2-3 Caravans in your duration space each turn). 
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

silverspawn

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2014, 12:16:56 pm »
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If Baron misses on the ST/Baron opening, do you play it anyway and gain an estate to increase your collision chance on the next shuffle?  I found in test games that once the engine is finally built, drawing your deck with KC'd Margraves and Caravans is no problem, and Caravan's duration effect gives you a nice big starting hand to make connecting KCs easier, so I'm thinking one extra Estate might be tolerable.  The tricky part for me was making sure I didn't get more than one or two KCs stuck in duration-land each turn (I think ideally you want to leave one KC with 2-3 Caravans in your duration space each turn).

this is the reason i'd not be afraid to buy a silver, or even a couple ones. but i doubt you want to gain estates anyway.
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Warrior

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2014, 11:02:55 pm »
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C1: Warrior vs. ADK 3-3

Game 1:http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408326750740.txt
Game 2:http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408327585996.txt
Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408328172435.txt
Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408328989484.txt
Game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408330199228.txt
Game 6: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408330721040.txt

As always, any input is greatly appreciated!

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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Game reports & discussion: C
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2014, 11:15:55 pm »
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C1: Warrior vs. ADK 3-3

Game 1:http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408326750740.txt
Game 2:http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408327585996.txt
Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408328172435.txt
Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408328989484.txt
Game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408330199228.txt
Game 6: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140817/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1408330721040.txt

As always, any input is greatly appreciated!

These were some fun matches from my perspective, though two of them were basically decided by one player getting tournament from the BM deck (one for each of us). The ending of the governor/soothsayer game caught me off guard, I think I spent too much time building up. The apothecary game was pretty tense but I think with Explorer and BV to protect my Provinces I made the right choice to skip saboteur.
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The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty
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