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ErrinF

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Dominion: Gunpowder
« on: July 02, 2014, 05:21:02 pm »
+5

DOMINION GUNPOWDER

Dominion Gunpowder is an unofficial variant expansion for Donald X. Vaccarino's Dominion. To play Dominion Gunpowder as an expansion to the Dominion base game, you may use the Dominion Alchemy expansion set to represent the Dominion Gunpowder Kingdom cards via replacement. Or you may use any Kingdom cards you choose to be replaced by the Dominion Gunpowder Kingdom cards if you would rather not replace Dominion Alchemy cards when playing Dominion Gunpowder. The quick play replacement option is for those who wish to start playing Dominion Gunpowder right away by using this rule/card sheet, Dominion Alchemy, and a base Dominion set.

The Dominion Gunpowder expansion set consists of 13 cards which may be played as replacement cards for the Dominion Alchemy cards (16 Gunpowder cards and 10 each of the other 12 Kingdom cards). You can use the following list for which Dominion Gunpowder cards replace which Dominion Alchemy cards:

Gunpowder = Potion      
Bomb = Transmute   
Soldier = Apothecary
Musketeer = Alchemist
Grenadier = Philosopher's Stone         
Artillery = Familiar
Cannon = Golem               
Reserves = Apprentice
Garrison = Herbalist
Factory = University
Army = Possession
Sulfur Pit = Scrying Pool
General = Vineyard

The theme of Dominion Gunpowder is that of Medieval use of gunpowder and early modern warfare. This variant expansion follows the exact same rules as Dominion, with the only new dynamic being Attack/Reaction cards which can both make attacks and react to attacks. Attack/Reaction cards follow the exact same rules as all Attack cards and all Reaction cards, and count as both types of cards (either Attack when used as an Attack/Action or Reaction when used to react to an Attack).

Here are the 13 Kingdom cards of the Dominion Gunpowder expansion set:

Gunpowder
Treasure Card - Cost: 2 Coin
After you choose 10 Kingdom cards for the Supply, if any of them have a Gunpowder symbol in the cost, add the Gunpowder pile to the Supply. Also add the Gunpowder pile if you are using the promotional card Black Market and the Black Market deck includes at least one card with a Gunpowder symbol in the cost. Gunpowder is a Basic Treasure card that produces a Gunpowder symbol when played. Buying cards using a Gunpowder symbol works just like buying cards with Coin or Potion symbols, except a Gunpowder card is trashed after it produces a Gunpowder symbol that is used to buy a card with a Gunpowder symbol in the cost (and not trashed if no such card is bought with the Gunpowder symbol produced by that Gunpowder card that turn). A Gunpowder symbol in a card's cost only applies while that card is in the Supply. After that card is bought and put in a player's deck, any Gunpowder symbol on it is counted as +1 to the card's Coin cost for cards that refer to a card's cost.

Bomb Action Card - Cost: 1 Gunpowder
Trash a card from your hand then trash this card.

Soldier Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 1 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand.
__________
When another player plays an Attack card, you may trash this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Musketeer Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 2 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.
__________
When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Grenadier
Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 3 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Each other player discards the top card of their deck. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.
__________
When another player plays an Attack card, you may put this on top of your deck. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Artillery Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 3 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Choose one: Each other player reveals then discards the top card of their deck. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it; Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.

Cannon Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 4 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+2 Coin
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards two cards from their hand, and each other player with 4 cards in hand discards one card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. If two cards costing from 3 to 6 Coin are discarded from this by the same player, he only trashes one of them.

Reserves Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, +1 Card.

Garrison Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, +2 Actions.

Factory Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, +1 Buy and +1 Coin.

Army Action Card - Cost: 6 Coin
+1 Action
Do this twice: Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, choose one: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +1 Coin.

Sulfur Pit Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
Choose one: +1 Buy; Buy a Gunpowder card immediately from the trash for 2 Coin if a Gunpowder card is in the trash; Buy a Gunpowder card immediately from the Supply for 1 Coin if a Gunpowder card is in the Supply; Buy a Curse card immediately from the Supply for each other player to gain for 1 Coin per other player if a Curse card is in the Supply.
__________
When you trash this, each player (including you) gains a Curse card.

General
Victory Card - Cost: 2 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
Worth 2 Victory Points for every 3 Attack cards in your deck (rounded down). If there are no Attack cards in your deck, worth 2 Victory Points for every 3 identically named Action cards in your deck (rounded down).

Dominion Gunpowder was created by Errin Famiglia 2014. It is not an official Dominion expansion. All creative rights involving Donald X. Vaccarino's Dominion (including this variant in it's creator's opinion) belong solely to Mr. Vaccarino and his publisher Rio Grande Games.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 11:08:25 am by ErrinF »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 05:26:46 pm »
+5

do you want feedback?

KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 06:06:56 pm »
+1

I think you need to compare the strength of these cards to those that already exist, as well as the ones in Alchemy. Gunpowder already can't be used to buy more than 1 card, meaning the cards are really hard to buy lots of. The effect need to reflect that. Look at Bomb, which has the effect of trashing 1 card. But it takes multiple shuffles to get it into your deck, the purchase of Gunpowder, then Bomb, then lining it up with a card to trash. the effect is worse than Transmute, and takes the same amount of time to get.

If you don't own all the cards, look up their effects so that you know not only what has been done, but more importantly how strong cards of certain costs need to be. Also take into account the amount of time needed to get these cards. Sure Golem is crazy expensive, but it's effect is very strong. While gunpowder is cheaper, it still takes the same amount of time to get these cards, but you can only buy 1 of them. Their effects need to be extra strong in this case to make up for the fact that you can only buy 1 with each gunpowder.

EDIT: Also, look at how cards like Knights and Militia are worded. You can say "Discard down to 3 cards" as opposed to "Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards two cards from their hand, and each other player with 4 cards in hand discards one card from their hand." These have the same effect, but one is hard to understand, the other isn't. True, the difference is that if I have 7 cards in my hand then I only discard down to 5 cards, but the only cards that do this are Council Room, Soothsayer and Governor. These will not happen enough to warrant the complicated wording, in my mind at least.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 06:14:01 pm by KingZog3 »
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 10:45:43 pm »
0

Sure, feel free to give feedback or playtest the expansion. Its all good... this is just something I did for fun.

As for KingZog's constructive criticism, I meticulously picked out my wording and power balance of cards to fit the excellent guidelines put forth by this forum. Everything in Dominion Gunpowder is deliberately there for balance and to be different from other Kingdom cards in the game.

Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way to other player's decks. The Gunpowder cards are trashed after use to limit how quickly a deck can be filled with cards that have Gunpowder in the cost. I consider Bomb to be incredibly useful because the only other trashing card that can trash itself after use is Hermit (which also requires special circumstances to trash itself). Otherwise, you get stuck with a trashing card like Chapel after it does its work. Use a few Bombs and your deck will clear up quickly.

Besides limiting the destructive power of the Gunpowder cost cards by making the Gunpowder trash itself after use, I wanted Gunpowder to not just be a straight up copy of Potion. What other Treasures trash themselves after use? Counterfeit may trash other treasures, but it doesnt trash itself. Gunpowder is cheaper than a Potion card, trashes itself after use, and the Gunpowder cost in a card vanishes after it leaves the Supply, making it like any other card (unlike the special rules for Potion cost cards). I also think that back in medieval/renaissance times, gunpowder use was very crude and limited, so it should be a task to use Gunpowder in Dominion as well. The Sulfur Pit card sort of remedies that if somebody wants to more easily build up a deck with Gunpowder cost cards. Every card in this expansion is meant to be different than Kingdom cards already in the game. I'm keeping the Gunpowder card as is because that's how it is meant to work, similar to Potion but not identical.

And you are quite mistaken that my wording for Cannon is the same as 'discard down to 3 cards'. Suppose Cannon and Soothsayer (or Governor or Council Room ) are in the Supply. Suppose there are a few players. Soothsayers/Governors get played and player's hands get up to 6 or 7 cards. Then a Cannon card gets played. With my wording, only two cards get hit (just like a Knight would hit two cards, or a Rogue, etc). With your wording, too many cards get discarded and possibly trashed. I picked that wording specifically to avoid such a situation. Its called reducing the 'swinginess' of the game. The scenario I put forth Soothsayers/Governors totally happens enough in gameplay and does indeed warrant precise wording. I would rather be thorough and specific. Its not like my wording is at all that confusing or complicated. Thanks for the feedback, but I'll most likely be keeping this variant expansion as is. Its meant to be limited in a certain way, which includes certain detailed word use so as to avoid too much destructive power when applied to certain situations that may pop up in any given Dominion game.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2014, 11:29:28 pm »
+4

Quote
Sure
alright, so, firstly I highly discourage the idea to make a set of cards that's meant to replace an expansion 1:1. In order to play this, you'd have to print the rules on a piece of paper, and constantly check it. Noone is going to do that, not while there is LF's expansion out there with cards that are ready to be printed and played by itself. Just making it its own thing, without the relation to alchemy, seems like a better idea.

Secondly, it might be a good idea to write cards down like this:
Quote
Some card - Action - Reaction - X$
- Vanilla Bonus
- Vanilla Bonus
- Effekt
or in a similar format, that makes it look better, and people are more used to it.

as far as the cards go

Bomb is weak for the reasons KZ listed.

Quote
I consider Bomb to be incredibly useful because the only other trashing card that can trash itself after use is Hermit (which also requires special circumstances to trash itself). Otherwise, you get stuck with a trashing card like Chapel after it does its work. Use a few Bombs and your deck will clear up quickly.
this isn't quite correct, Death cart can also trash itself, and Island kind of too, but mostly getting rid of one last card just isn't nearly worth enough to make it cost P+$.

KZ is also right about the "discard down to" vs "discard XX cards" thing. You seem to have overread that he addressed the times when it's different in his post, and I agree with him that it's not worth the new and confusing wording.

Soldier is also very weak. +1$ + urchin attack isn't even worth 2$, and the reaction part is even weaker.

Musketeer is very similar, and also very weak. Mostly it will cause estates and coppers to be discarded, therefore doing almost nothing. It's again an on play effect that's generally worse than moat and a reaction which is also worse than moat.

Grenadier is a Knights variant with a swingier version of the same attack and a really weak reaction. it's very weak and it's also not exciting, because well Knights do basically the same thing.

Artillery is very similar and has the same problems. It's stronger, because the vanilla bonus is better, but it's still weak for its cost.

Cannon is a Militia variant, which will mostly be the exact same thing on play, making it very weak considering that it's a P+$ cost card.

Reserves is a Spy variant, but it's almost strictly worse, which is bad because Spy is already pretty weak.

Garrison is an Ironmonger variant, but it's a lot weaker. It's also a weaker version of Reserves, which is already weak.

Factory is the same thing again, this time with one of the 2 other vanilla bonuses to choose from. It's also very weak.

Army is a Lab variant, but it can also be a Peddler+Spy, or Market Square+Spy if you want, or even a CSM + double spy. It's very versatile, but it can always be a lab, which is really good. It might be alright at 6$, it's definitely strong enough.

Sulfur Pit doesn't have a price, but it's pretty much overpriced even if it costs 0$, you're very unlikely to want this in your deck.

General is a Vineyard variant, and it's strictly worse, which is a bad thing considering it costs more. It's also a lot worse. Probably weak, but definitely a poor card next to Vineyard.

Yea, dunno, making good cards is extremely difficult at this point. I come up with ideas constantly, but I drop about 80% of them after thinking about them for a minute, and about 50% of the remaining ones after thinking about them some more, and even then there is a big chance that they don't work out. I can almost guarantee you that no card from this set except for Army is playable as it is, unless I misread them... you said it's something you did for fun though, and that's completely fine.

what do you think soulnet? better?  :)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 11:34:12 pm by silverspawn »
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2014, 11:39:38 pm »
0

Fair point about Canon because it trashes.

However, Bomb is still weak. Unless it's a typo, it currently trashes a card then trashes itself. This is essentially what Island does, but it only costs $4 and gives 2VP. I assume it's supposed to say "trash a card from your hand, you may trash this card," but that's still weak. Single card, terminal trashing isn't super powerful. Look at Trade Route. Early on it give no benefit other than +buy for trashing a card. Sure you can use it in an engine, I do, but it also costs $3 so I can open turn 1 with with.

Army is Lab+ so fine at $6. I would put a little buff on it because I think it's weak for a $6 card, but it clearly has to be because it's better than lab. Not sure what the buff could be because it has all the Pawn options. Have you tested it? Maybe it's fine. I'd buy it over Adventurer.

Reserves and garrison are weak. If you don't discard the card, they are essentially Ruined Village that looks at the top card of your deck. If you do discard then Reserves sifts through 1 card without lowering your hand size, and Garrison would be worse than Village if you discard. Village puts that card into your hand, this discards it. Edge cases aside, it's pretty much always worse and costs $3. At $2 it's still worse than Hamlet which always replaces itself and then gives the option of discarding the same card for both an action or a buy.

To be clear, I'm not saying the idea of Gunpowder is bad. It's similar to Prizes, in the sense that it's hard to get them, and you often wouldn't be getting more than 1 or 2 of a gunpowder card in a game. It's simply that the cards power do not reflect the effort required to get these them.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 11:58:34 pm »
0

To help those who want to give feedback or playtest, here's what I was thinking for some of the Kingdom cards I made for this game...

Gunpowder... I pretty thoroughly explained my reasons for the Gunpowder card rules in the last reply I made in this topic. Its like Potion, but with a few unique rules that make it different. I wanted a Potion type card that was more than just a Basic Treasure card. Obviously, Dominion Gunpowder is heavily inspired by Dominion Alchemy, but I wanted it to be different and not too much like Alchemy. By the way, Alchemy is my second favorite expansion after Cornucopia (love the prizes!). I don't agree with the various criticisms of it (such as Possession's power) and instead think of it as an extremely clever way of introducing magic to the Dominion game. I like the randomness and variety of the Potion cost cards, from Possession to my beloved Golem (By the way, am I the only person who makes decks that are Golem with only ONE type of Action card in the deck? That way I can always rely on the same action. Works great with Scheme and a few other Kingdom cards. Everybody else seems to have Golem be incidental, but if I use Golem, I revolve my whole deck around it).

Bomb... I wanted to have a card that trashes itself after it trashes another card. Inspired by Hermit, but more straightforward.

Soldier/Musketeer/Grenadier... I wanted to create a group of military men with slightly increasing ranks/strength that would be effective in numbers. The Soldiers are expendable, the Musketeers can get wounded but survive, and the Grenadiers retreat to attack again another time. They are all modeled after Militia, Urchin, and Mercenary, as well as Knights/Rogues. I added Attack/Reaction cards to Dominion Gunpowder to have something different from other expansions. I figure that Attack/Reaction cards haven't been created yet as they were probably deemed too strong and swingy to have a card that both attacks and reacts. But I think I avoided that by making these Attack/Reaction cards what they are... limited to just 3 in number in the expansion, and their reactions can be useful but come at a cost... Soldier prevents attack but is trashed. Musketeer prevents an attack but is then discarded and cant be used when its that player's turn. Grenadier has the 'strongest' reaction in that it is only placed on top of the deck and will be in the player's next hand, BUT when Grenadiers are in a deck, it is a pretty precarious position to be that card on top of the deck. So, though a Grenadier may have the best reaction compared to the other two, it sets itself up for being trashed by other Grenadiers (or Artillery if it is in the Supply). I also chose the Attack/Reaction cards as a reflection of the warfare that is brought about by gunpowder use... Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are trained in the art of war, which includes attacking and reacting. This makes them slightly different than most other Attack cards in Dominion, but not in a much more powerful way at all. Another thing about these 3 cards... they are meant to be quite destructive (as well as profitable) if enough of them are used with enough actions in a turn. In the case of this expansion, they are meant to work particularly well in conjunction with the Army card. Lastly, Attack/Reaction cards are blue in color like any other Reaction cards, in case anybody was curious how they'd look if made into a real set.

Artillery... The choice given in Artillery is meant to reflect aiming and firing on the enemy. In this case, you can aim for their hand or aim for their deck. Originally had the choice being between discarding the top card of a deck or the top card of a discard pile, but I realized that factoring in the top card of a discard pile was pointless as players could just discard so as to make their top discard pile card something useless time and again.

Cannon... Modeled after Knights and Militia. I wanted to make sure it was destructive but not too destructive. Kind of an equal match for the Knights in that it does not effect more than two cards per use, and may sometimes effect only one card.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... Basically the same concept: draw your top card and choose between keeping it for use or discarding it to gain something else... +1 Action, +1 Card, +1 Coin, or +1 Buy. Its basically a +1 Action +1 Card card, but with a slight variation. I think it really works well for supporting a military themed deck if a player chooses to build one.

Army... Probably my favorite card in this set and considered by me to be the most powerful in it. It is basically my Reserves/Garrison/Factory concept on steroids. Army is kind of a mix between Laboratory, Crossroads, and Pawn. Its basically a +1 Action +2 Card card, but it allows for huge variation on what it can do for you in a turn, including +3 actions. Used in conjunction with other Army cards, it becomes all the more powerful, and used in conjunction with most of the Gunpowder cost cards (especially Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier), it can cause a lot of destruction as well as generate a lot of Coin. It also works well with most any Action card, as it can be used to create an army of anything... Bureaucrats, Swindlers, Rats... you name it. I debated Army having a Gunpowder symbol in its cost, but I decided against that, as it isn't THAT powerful, plus I wanted it to represent non-military 'armies' that weren't necessarily about waging war. I think the cost is just right for Army.

Sulfur Pit... Originally, Sulfur Pit was just about making Gunpowder cards easier and cheaper to obtain, but then I realized that that wasn't super useful, didn't work if Sulfur Pit was in the Supply and Gunpowder wasn't, and (most importantly) I had no Curses or Cursegivers in this expansion of mine. Not the biggest fan of Cursers, but every Dominion expansion has introduced Kingdom cards that find new ways of using Curse, so I wanted Sulfur Pit to be just that. Sulfur Pit is also an homage to some of my favorite promo cards, Governor and Black Market. Like Black Market, it allows for immediate buys. Like Governor, it allows for a few choices to be made by the player (although the choices are limited if Gunpowder is not in the Supply). I also wanted to make sure that if I made a Curser for this expansion, it would be unique from any other Curser. Not only does Sulfur Pit require an immediate buy being made in order for it to give out Curses, but it also gives a Curse to every player if it is ever trashed by any means. Considering how much trashing can be done with most Gunpowder cost cards, the Sulfur Pit can explosively effect the game in unexpected ways if it is set off. Since Cursing every player is a concept not used before in a Dominion expansion, I wanted to make sure it had a very specific trigger. And though it may seem like cursing everybody wont effect game balance much, if strategically done (with a Trader, Watchtower, etc) it can be useful to a player. Also, if there aren't enough Curses in the Supply for every player, only certain players will get Curses and some won't (per the usual rules of doling out Curses).... Speaking of, if there are more players than there are Curses in the Supply, Sulfur Pit can still be used to dish out the last of the Curses, only the cost for ALL other players still applies even if only some of the other players actually get curse. In addition, the 'curse everybody if trashed accidentally or otherwise' side effect of the Sulfur Pit card is meant to be a deliberate risk for any player using Sulfur Pit... it might very well blow up in their face! One last note... The Sulfur Pit is able to 'curse' for a variety of reasons... perhaps an evil spirit dwells in it, or it is used to by a witches as an ingredient for their curses, or maybe just used to make mundane bombs that 'curse' a player with their destructiveness. Personally, I like to think the payment made to use Sulfur Pit to curse is either tribute to a devilish spirit in the pit or payment for a local witch to curse your opponents. Maybe it's both. Whatever the case, I really like how strange and unique Sulfur Pit ended up being in its final form now.

General... Kind of a mix of Vineyard and Fairgrounds, although it rewards identical cards rather than different cards. Originally called General, I briefly changed it to Armada. But then I realized Armada was specific to a fleet of warships. I also had it originally be just about Attack cards, but then I realized that there are many Dominion games played where the Supply ends up having no Attack cards at all. So I changed it to any grouping of three identical cards, and it actually fits much better as well as tying up that particular loose end for when no Attack cards show up in the Supply for a game. This also fits in with the Army card theme of being part of a large organization that isn't necessarily military-based. For instance, if you have a bunch of Doctors in your deck and a General, then you have a Surgeon General. A bunch of Envoys and a General in your deck... Postmaster General (of sorts). A General can be a General of anything when it comes down to it, although the military General is still the basis for the General card. Unlike Vineyard or Fairgrounds, I'm not sure a deck can be made revolving around General (at least one that will win or create a large amount of VP), but I can see it making a difference on the margins. Maybe I'm wrong though and there is a way to make a very VP rich General deck, perhaps with enough buys made of the cheaper Action cards.

So there you go. That's what I was thinking for most of the cards in this expansion. I'm really happy with how it all turned out.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 12:05:54 am »
+2

It feels like two card ideas spread out on 13 unique cards, power-wise too. But the Gunpowder as a concept is pretty nice.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 12:07:06 am by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 12:22:42 am »
0

I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 12:24:43 am »
0

The theme and names are good. The feedback most about how the cards are mostly not worth every buying. Cannon may be equal with knights, but it's so much harder to get. Bomb has an effect that's nearly the same as Island, but lacks the VP bonus and takes longer to get.

Awaclus also has a point that many of the cards are almost the same as each other. Imagine they are all in the same set-up. What make me want to pick one over the other? All the official cards have pros and cons, or are simply priced in a way that makes them easier to acquire. Like Village and Bazaar. Village is cheap, Bazaar is expensive. My incentive to buy Village is that it's much much easier to accumulate many of them quickly, while my incentive to buy Bazaar is that it's effect is much stronger than Village. Soldier/musketeer/Gunman are all nearly the same and since Gunpowder can only be used once, the isn't much incentive to buy all the different cards. I'll aim for which ever card I can afford first because their effect is very similar. Also, as said before Gunman is essentially a $5 worse than Urchin.

Army is a good, probably balanced utility card.

EDIT: To be clear, this isn't me trying to be a hard-ass. I think if you find playing with these cards fun there is no problem with them. I'm just putting them into context with the official cards, as well as with my own perspective. This is just because I know when I first posted cards here I thought people were being harsh unfairly, even though they didn't mean anything mean by what they were posting.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 12:27:30 am by KingZog3 »
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 12:25:23 am »
0

I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 12:30:45 am »
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I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?

I've never read the term before I think.

KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 12:39:09 am »
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I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?

I've never read the term before I think.

I dunno. Aren't you in Europe somewhere? Like English isn't your first language? Because I've probably never read most German words in my life before :P
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 12:48:36 am »
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I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?

I've never read the term before I think.

I dunno. Aren't you in Europe somewhere? Like English isn't your first language? Because I've probably never read most German words in my life before :P

yea but i read a lot of english stuff recently. like, several hours each day. but it's not the kind of literature where gun powder is likely to appear.

matste

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 01:12:53 am »
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Garrison is strictly worse than Hamlet. That's the main problem with your expansion - cards are very weak. Unless I'm missing some crazy interaction, straight Big Money wins with any gunpowder based deck.
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matste

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 01:17:56 am »
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I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???
I think I learned that word from computer games like Civilization and Age of Empires. That's strange that a Dominion player has never heard of it.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 03:09:19 am »
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I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.

The 1:1 match up with Alchemy was something I thought up just recently, and ended up liking a lot, and makes my expansion a lot more playable in real life. Dominion Gunpowder IS its own expansion, but I wanted it to be accessible and easily playable to anybody who wanted to give it a try. They don't have to print out seperate version or anything like that... they just use Alchemy as replacement cards and can start playing Dominion Gunpowder just like that. If somebody wants to make up a whole separate set for Gunpowder, they can, but they can just as easily use the replacement method I suggest in this forum's initial post. I did think about how this could limit a player if they wanted Alchemy cards and Gunpowder cards in the Supply for a game. But I was okay with it because it then comes down to the classic dichotomy of magic versus guns... one or the other. I would prefer Dominion Gunpowder to be thought of as its own set though, and the 'use as replacement cards for Alchemy' idea is simply a very basic way for people to start playing this as is. Unfortunately, all the Dominion cards I own are the virtual ones over at Goko (of which I have all but Walled Village). I do play on buying Dominion in the somewhat near future, only I just recently acquired ALL of the Arkham Horror games/expansions so I probably wont be getting hard copies of Dominion for a few months. Still, I put this up here more for others to play than me. I just wish I could playtest this more myself. I'm sure I will someday.

As far as the presentation goes, it is meant to be a simple one page concept that anybody can use to play right away if they have Dominion (or Intrigue) and Alchemy. I thought of all caps and such for card titles, but in the end went for a simple no frills version that is low on presentation but at least leaves plenty of room for the imagination.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.

As for the individual criticisms of each card...

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.

Bomb... Interesting this is the main point of contention, as Bomb was the first card I thought of that then lead to the whole gunpowder/warfare concept behind this expansion. All I wanted to do was make a card that can trash any card then goes away itself. I dont like being stuck with Chapel after it has made itself useful by clearing the deck, and other such cards that Trash. Let's compare Bomb to other cards that trash. Hermit is the only other card that trashes itself. But it cannot trash any card. Bomb can. And to trash Hermit, you first have to gain a card of 3 or less Coin value, and then NOT make a buy for your turn, and Hermit might not even get to trash any other card that turn before it trashes itself. Hermit then gets trashed and you get a Madman card. Madman is useful (and returns to the Supply), but still stays in your deck til used, and whatever the Hermit gained of 3 coin or less stays stuck in your hand til trashed. Death Cart cant even be brought up in comparison really, because although it trashes itself, its not a card one gets to clean up their deck by trashing. It only trashes Action cards, not the junk like estates and copper. I continue to feel Bomb is just right for its cost as it is a very powerful one time use card, with only General being the cheaper Gunpowder cost card (and General is just a Victory card that does nothing else but VP). If you dont think it is strong, I don't think you quite value how strongly trashing effects a deck's power. Nothing is more deadly than a deck with all its useless junk removed. Ever heard of the Big Move, where you gather a ton of VP in one turn? You can usually only do that with a deck thoroughly cleaned up and made super effective by selective trashing. Bomb allows for the somewhat quick creation of a small but effective deck, especially since the Gunpowder card used to buy the Bomb trashes itself too. And though Hermit would beat out Bomb in the short term, once it comes time to trash the coppers, you are out of luck when it comes to Hermit. While it takes a few turns for a Bomb to get bought and used, the end result is a small, effective deck. Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing. To me, I think of it as the cheapest of the Gunpowder cost cards.

Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?

Musketeer... Not very weak at all. If he hits a good hand later in the game, a lot more than estates and coppers are going to be discarded. And if he hits a deck with most or all of its coppers and estates trashed, you're going to hit something good. Musketeer is very effective against good decks. Ya, you're right, he's not so great against weak, crappy decks full of cards that need to be trashed. But what threat is that kind of deck to anybody? Musketeer is stronger than that deck because he can damage well built decks. And again, a one time Moat at the right time can be very useful, and change the game balance in certain struggles. Suppose Musketeer is the only card in the Supply that prevents attacks? How many cards in Dominion do prevent attacks? Not many. And they certainly don't make attacks too, let alone ones with the potential to trash cards from 3 to 6 coin cost. And once again I will point out that Musketeer is meant to be used in numbers like a military. Like Soldier, the more Musketeers you get and can put into action, the more powerful your deck will become. I suppose that can be said of any card, but in this case, these cards are meant to have strength in numbers.

Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.

Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol

Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... These cards are all actually your typical +1 action +1 card that cost 3 coin. They simply allow you to go through your deck and make use of useless cards you might draw (Victory Cards, extra actions cards you cant play, etc). To call these cards weak is missing the point. Not every card in an expansion is meant to be strong. Some are more supportive They are 3 coin cost cards, and they each allow a unique mechanic that other cards in the official Dominion don't have. No comparison to Spy or Ironmonger or any card that has you look at a card then choose to discard it or put it back. These cards let you choose to discard it or put it in your hand. Spy doesnt do that. Ironmonger doesnt do that. You actually put the card in hand for use if it is useful, or you make it useful if it is useless by turning it into an Action/Card/Coin/Buy. All of these 3 cards allow you to sort through your deck at a slightly faster pace and make use of otherwise unusable cards. I have no idea why you would think that is not useful because it can be incredibly useful if done right. Not gamechanging, but helpful and can lead to winning in the long run.

Army... Again, not comparable to Spy. It does not look at a card then decide to discard it or put it back. It actually gets the next card and can put it in hand, unless you'd rather discard that card to instead choose between the 4 bonuses. Due to its amount of actions it can create (+3) it becomes even more powerful the more Army cards you have. This is also the card that makes the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers a lot more formidable if it also happens to be in the Supply.

Sulfur Pit... Didn't notice I left out the cost in all the reworking I did of this, but I edited that typo since you pointed it out. Thanks for that. Sulfur Pit costs 3 Coin and I guarantee you that you'd buy it if it was the only Curser in the Supply (unless you want to be Cursed to death by your opponents) or if you want to build a deck of Gunpowder cost cards. It actually works best in conjunction with the Gunpowder card, as it allows you to gather Gunpowder cards with free buys, buy Gunpowder from the Supply for only 2 Coin, and be able to buy Gunpowder from the trash at all. And one thing about Sulfur Pit... It cannot be accused of being too 'samey'. It is a very unique card.

General... General is indeed just meant to be the 'Vineyard' of this set. It's requirement for VP is highly specialized. Most every expansion has a Victory card or two, and I wanted one for this expansion too. General fits just right thematically, and does have its uses, but being that it is modeled after Vineyard but in a more limited way, it is what it is. There's really no territory left in Victory cards except for basing one off of Attacks. I will try to think of a way to possibly change General so that it gets more bang if it fulfills its very specific conditions, but if that approach ends up making it too powerful, I'll probably have to keep it as is. Of all the criticisms, I feel this one has been the most constructive.

Truth is, all your constructive criticisms have been very helpful and appreciated, and when I hold my own ground and critique back, it is purely from a 'debate' standpoint and not at all hostile or deaf to points you are making. Thanks for hearing me out, and I look forward to checking out your variants/expansions some day. I've only gotten to peruse a few here so far, but they were all so interesting and awesome looking that I put it aside for when I can better read up and take the time to go through each of the one that have been crafted so well. A lot of cool game design going on here. I'm curious to how some people get their prototype cards and the artwork for them. Most everything I've seen here has been outstanding and very, very cool. Thanks again for all the input and feedback.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 03:31:20 am »
+1

Ok, I made a quick change to General. It gives 1 VP for every 3 Attack cards in your deck and also gives 1 VP for every 3 identically named Action cards in your deck that are not Attack cards. I feel this greatly improves its strength/worth and also made it fit in better with the military theme... a good army has attack units and support units. Didn't make this card super strong with this change, but its never meant to be that strong. This is most likely the only change I'm going to make to this expansion because all the other ones are pretty much set to be what they are.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 03:54:54 am »
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Now I'm thinking there is one more change I need to make that might just remedy the main criticism I am getting about Gunpowder cost cards not being worth their relative cost.

I think this is the solution... What if I change the cost of the Gunpowder card to 2 Coin? Not only will that make it a uniquely priced Treasure card, it will also make building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a lot more competitive.

If I do change the Gunpowder card cost to 2 Coin, I'll then alter Sulfur Pit to buy Gunpowder from the Supply for 1 Coin or from the trash for 2 Coin.

I think I'll probably go in that direction, but I need to contemplate first if this would make the Gunpowder cost cards too easily accessible. They can be greatly destructive of other player's decks if used in numbers, so I am cautious about doing anything that will make this expansion too 'swingy'.

What do you think? Will having the Gunpowder cost being 2 instead of 3 make the cards in this expansion more functionable and strong? I'll have to think about it a little. Thanks again for the input.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 04:18:32 am »
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Actually, I thought about it a little more before calling it a night, and changing the Gunpowder cost to 2 Coin is exactly what needs to be done, so I've already done it. The selling point for me was that lowering the cost of Gunpowder to 2 Coin then made it immune to trashing attacks of most of the Gunpowder cost cards. Also, gunpowder wouldn't require very expensive ingredients to make when it comes down to it, so a 2 Coin cost is more apt than a 3 point cost. And there's no Treasure card that costs 2 Coin, so I like that uniqueness for Gunpowder. Seems to me to be a more reasonable investment for a card that trashes itself after use.

The 2 point cost thing reminds me of a 'hidden strength' of the Soldier I forgot to mention... once bought, he becomes equal to 2 coin value and is therefore immune to Knight attacks, Saboteur attacks, and most attacks of the other Gunpowder cost cards.

Thank you so very much for helping me improve this expansion in a way that makes it more appealing and competitive. Because of your feedback, the Gunpowder card and the General card definitely improved over my original concept for them. Much appreciated. : )
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 04:19:38 am by ErrinF »
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2014, 09:11:51 am »
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Quote
I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.

Most of the people here play the game very much, I assure you. Trashing is important, but only if you can do it fast enough, otherwise your engine won't kick in fast enough. Preventing attacks definitely takes a backseat to launching attacks. You'll notice there are 35 attack cards in Dominion, but only 10 reactions, only half of which can be said to mitigate attacks. Attacking is just so much better than blocking attacks. I agree with the other folks on here in that a lot of these cards seem very weak.

Bomb, as has been pointed out, is just... so... slow. I have to buy Gunpowder, shuffle it in, buy Bomb, shuffle it in, and finally get to trash... one card? I'd have to empty the Bomb pile to get rid of my starting cards, not to mention all the actions I'd use playing them or the other buys I'd be spending on Gunpowder. The one-at-a-time trashers in Dominion, you will notice, aren't really primarily about trashing, it just comes as a nice bonus. Hermit is about something else entirely, Altar is about gaining good $5's, Trade Route gets you some cash, Island nets you VP, Spice Merchant give you some flexibility, and so forth. Bomb needs to trash more than one card, and possibly have the self-trash be optional. You mention how you don't like having your Chapel hanging around once you've got a thin deck, but think about it - would you rather have a single dead Chapel for 10 turns in a thin deck, or have to draw and play 10 Bombs in a deck that's only slowly getting better?

Quote
Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing.

So... why would I want a Bomb instead of an Island, again? It takes longer to get and doesn't give me a VP bonus. You yourself say Island is superior, and then say Bomb is equally useful.The cards definitely do not "conceptually cost the same", since the Gunpowder cost is severely going to limit when and how many Bombs you can get.

Garrison gives +2 actions or +1 card +1 action.The first is equivalent to Necropolis, a card that's usually a burden. The second is strictly worse than Scheme, which costs the same amount. I don't think the choice is worth the cost.

Sulfur Pit confuses me a little about how the Gunpowder Buy happens immediately. Can I play treasure after playing Sulfur Pit? If so, you're opening a Black Market Pandora's Box.

Soldier seems a bit weak, especially in the face of Musketeers and Grenadiers. The Urchin effect doesn't do a whole lot, and trashing itself to prevent an attack really hurts when it's a Gunpowder-cost card. It's pretty much a no-buy if Musketeer or Grenadiers are on the board.

Reserves might be OK, I can't really decide. The Spy and draw in one turn is nice, and Great Hall is another cantrip with only a weak bonus, so this might be OK at $3.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 09:14:42 am »
+6

ill never understand how the amount of response in forums works

Kirian

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2014, 10:25:24 am »
+1

Some people have likened the Potion cost to an opportunity cost of about 2.5 coin.  This is because, in order to buy a potion-cost card, you have to buy the Potion, wait a shuffle, buy the Potion-cost card, wait another shuffle.  With excellent luck, the earliest you can play a Potion card is T5; with terrible luck, you won't play the first Potion card until T8 or T9!  So you can expect the same from any of the Gunpowder cards.

Now, the Gunpowder itself is cheaper, but the fact that you have to trash it means you only get to buy a single Gunpowder-cost card for each Gunpowder you buy--whereas with Potion, I can buy a potion-cost card in every shuffle after the one where I buy the Potion.  Because of the forced trashing, I would say that gunpowder-cost cards have a similar opportunity cost--about 2.5 coin.  Let's look at your cards under that light.

Bomb: Costs "3.5": Trash a card from your hand then trash this card.

This costs more than Transmute or Trade Route, which are two of the least useful trashers in the game.  And it does less than either one, because it's only useful once.  The best comparison is Island, as mentioned multiple times before... except that you can use Island in the second shuffle, and it gives you 2 VP.  And it only "costs" 0.5 more.  This card is, dare I say, worse than Scout.

Soldier (Action/Attack/Reaction card) Costs "4.5" +1 Coin. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. __________ When another player plays an Attack card, you may trash this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

I rather like the idea of a Reaction that is also an attack--it's been done elsewhere.  But the reaction isn't very strong--and again requires trashing rather than discarding or revealing.  So, half a Militia plus an extremely weak reaction for a higher cost... no.  This is never worth buying.

Musketeer (Action/Attack/Reaction card) Costs "5.5". +1 Coin. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. __________ When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

OK, so this is... the same as Soldier, except the reaction is a discard rather than a trash.  Because the Knight portion is almost never going to happen.  95% of discards to this will be Estate, Copper, or Curse.  Still not worth as much as Militia.

Grenadier (Action/Attack/Reaction card) Costs "6.5". +1 Coin. Each other player discards the top card of their deck. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. __________ When another player plays an Attack card, you may put this on top of your deck. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

OK, this is... yet another card that's nearly the same as Soldier.  At a ridiculous cost.  I think there's the core of a card idea here, but there aren't three cards' worth of ideas.

Artillery (Action/Attack card) Costs "6.5". +2 Coin. Choose one: Each other player reveals then discards the top card of their deck; Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.

Worse than Dame Sylvia--or any other Knight--for a huge cost.  And not creatively different from the previous three cards.

Cannon (Action/Attack card) Costs 1 Gunpowder and 5 Coin. +2 Coin. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards two cards from their hand, and each other player with 4 cards in hand discards one card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. If two cards costing from 3 to 6 Coin are discarded from this by the same player, he only trashes one of them.

OK, so I was going to go through all of these to critique, but I'm stopping here, because that's four variants on the same card, all of which are weaker than cheaper cards.  If you're having fun with them, great... but these aren't worth examining any longer.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2014, 10:35:35 am »
0

I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.
Yes, we actually do. I, for instance, have played over 4000 games online, and both I and silverspawn are generally in the top50 of the Pro leaderboard. Trashing does affect gameplay greatly, but most official trashers are actually very powerful at trashing. Chapel trashes 4 cards at a time. Steward trashes 2 cards at a time and turns into a useful card later. Ambassador gets rid of two cards while handing out one over to all of your opponents. Masquerade trashes only one card, but it lets you do so while still having 5 cards that you can use in your buy phase. Lookout and Trade Route might be weak cards in general, but at least they still take only one turn to acquire, and eventually even a single Trade Route will have cleared most of the junk cards in your deck.

Preventing attacks really is of little consequence. Moat is an incredibly weak card, I usually don't buy a Moat if it's the only $2 card in the kingdom and I have $2 to spend. Lighthouse is a strong card, but only because it's non-terminal and also beneficial for the extra coins it gives.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.
Donald X. had an expansion called "War" that he was planning at some point. Later, that expansion became what we know as Dark Ages today. It has more variety than any other official expansion. Dominion has some groups of cards that are similar with each other because a Village variant should be available pretty often, because a Smithy variant should be available pretty often and because a curser should be available pretty often. Every time Donald X. releases a new expansion, the expansion has some Villages, some Smithies and a curser that are relevant to that expansion for example, Seaside, which is about caring about your next turn, has a curser which deals Curses on the opponents' decks, a +actions card which lets you save cards for your future turns and a +cards card which draws you more cards during your next turn. There isn't an expansion with 13 Villages of different price points and power levels.

And why would you ever get Garrison over Village? Why would you ever get Factory over Squire?

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.
I think that Gunpowder is fine. It's the cards that are basically never worth the investment. Yes, you have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak, that's true, but you can't just ignore the strong/weak standard either. If the card is too strong or too weak, it's not fun to play with.

I continue to feel Bomb is just right for its cost as it is a very powerful one time use card, with only General being the cheaper Gunpowder cost card (and General is just a Victory card that does nothing else but VP). If you dont think it is strong, I don't think you quite value how strongly trashing effects a deck's power. Nothing is more deadly than a deck with all its useless junk removed. Ever heard of the Big Move, where you gather a ton of VP in one turn? You can usually only do that with a deck thoroughly cleaned up and made super effective by selective trashing. Bomb allows for the somewhat quick creation of a small but effective deck, especially since the Gunpowder card used to buy the Bomb trashes itself too. And though Hermit would beat out Bomb in the short term, once it comes time to trash the coppers, you are out of luck when it comes to Hermit. While it takes a few turns for a Bomb to get bought and used, the end result is a small, effective deck. Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing. To me, I think of it as the cheapest of the Gunpowder cost cards.
Bomb doesn't remove all the useless junk. It removes one card. Chapel removes all the useless junk. Count removes all the useless junk. Even Trade Route removes all the useless junk eventually. But Bomb will never remove more than one useless card, it's more expensive than Trade Route, and takes one extra shuffle to get. Having a single trasher in your deck isn't too bad, any engine should be able to overcome one useless card. Spending 10 turns buying Gunpowders, another 10 turns buying Bombs and another 10 turns using the Bombs in order to get rid of all of the starting junk in your deck is WAY too bad your opponent can Ambassador you more junk faster than you can get rid of it with Bombs.

Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?
But he isn't cheap! He costs $4 and two turns, that's more than Militia, whose effect is way more effective. And yes, he is incredibly useless even if he is the only reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks, because preventing attacks is almost useless in the first place, and Soldier sucks at it you still lose a card from your hand.

Musketeer... Not very weak at all. If he hits a good hand later in the game, a lot more than estates and coppers are going to be discarded. And if he hits a deck with most or all of its coppers and estates trashed, you're going to hit something good. Musketeer is very effective against good decks. Ya, you're right, he's not so great against weak, crappy decks full of cards that need to be trashed. But what threat is that kind of deck to anybody? Musketeer is stronger than that deck because he can damage well built decks. And again, a one time Moat at the right time can be very useful, and change the game balance in certain struggles. Suppose Musketeer is the only card in the Supply that prevents attacks? How many cards in Dominion do prevent attacks? Not many. And they certainly don't make attacks too, let alone ones with the potential to trash cards from 3 to 6 coin cost. And once again I will point out that Musketeer is meant to be used in numbers like a military. Like Soldier, the more Musketeers you get and can put into action, the more powerful your deck will become. I suppose that can be said of any card, but in this case, these cards are meant to have strength in numbers.
It is easy to become immune against Musketeer by keeping just a couple of bad cards in your deck. People are already doing this in Masquerade games, but it's even easier against Musketeer since the bad cards can be Provinces as well. And Musketeer costs a lot more than Masquerade, and has a weaker vanilla bonus than Masquerade. Furthermore, there are strategies such as Silk Roads rush that basically always have Coppers or Estates to discard, and are a strong threat.

Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.
Does Grenadier make a player discard from hand? It doesn't look like it does.

Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol
Yes, I would actually rather have Dame Sylvia, in every situation in every game. On top of that, Dame Sylvia is cheaper and faster to get.

Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.
A strong deck of cards wins the game regardless of Cannon.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... These cards are all actually your typical +1 action +1 card that cost 3 coin. They simply allow you to go through your deck and make use of useless cards you might draw (Victory Cards, extra actions cards you cant play, etc). To call these cards weak is missing the point. Not every card in an expansion is meant to be strong. Some are more supportive They are 3 coin cost cards, and they each allow a unique mechanic that other cards in the official Dominion don't have. No comparison to Spy or Ironmonger or any card that has you look at a card then choose to discard it or put it back. These cards let you choose to discard it or put it in your hand. Spy doesnt do that. Ironmonger doesnt do that. You actually put the card in hand for use if it is useful, or you make it useful if it is useless by turning it into an Action/Card/Coin/Buy. All of these 3 cards allow you to sort through your deck at a slightly faster pace and make use of otherwise unusable cards. I have no idea why you would think that is not useful because it can be incredibly useful if done right. Not gamechanging, but helpful and can lead to winning in the long run.
Where did all the useless cards now sprout up from? Wasn't that supposed to be the last standard you'd ever use to judge a Dominion card?

Either way, Reserves is strictly inferior to Sage, an already weak $3 card. Garrison is strictly inferior to Hamlet, a $2 card. Factory is *this* close to being strictly inferior to Pawn, a weakish $2 card. They really are weak cards even in the situations where they shine.

Army... Again, not comparable to Spy. It does not look at a card then decide to discard it or put it back. It actually gets the next card and can put it in hand, unless you'd rather discard that card to instead choose between the 4 bonuses. Due to its amount of actions it can create (+3) it becomes even more powerful the more Army cards you have. This is also the card that makes the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers a lot more formidable if it also happens to be in the Supply.
If you're creating +3 actions with it, you're wasting the card. Its main use should be +1 action, +2 cards and hope to discard some bad cards while you're doing it, which is fine, although slightly weak for $6.

Sulfur Pit... Didn't notice I left out the cost in all the reworking I did of this, but I edited that typo since you pointed it out. Thanks for that. Sulfur Pit costs 3 Coin and I guarantee you that you'd buy it if it was the only Curser in the Supply (unless you want to be Cursed to death by your opponents) or if you want to build a deck of Gunpowder cost cards. It actually works best in conjunction with the Gunpowder card, as it allows you to gather Gunpowder cards with free buys, buy Gunpowder from the Supply for only 2 Coin, and be able to buy Gunpowder from the trash at all. And one thing about Sulfur Pit... It cannot be accused of being too 'samey'. It is a very unique card.
It seems fine power-wise, but rather than doing the wonky Black Market thing, you should probably just make the player discard a Treasure card since two of the options cost only $1 anyway, and the third option doesn't appear to be that much stronger.

General... General is indeed just meant to be the 'Vineyard' of this set. It's requirement for VP is highly specialized. Most every expansion has a Victory card or two, and I wanted one for this expansion too. General fits just right thematically, and does have its uses, but being that it is modeled after Vineyard but in a more limited way, it is what it is. There's really no territory left in Victory cards except for basing one off of Attacks. I will try to think of a way to possibly change General so that it gets more bang if it fulfills its very specific conditions, but if that approach ends up making it too powerful, I'll probably have to keep it as is. Of all the criticisms, I feel this one has been the most constructive.
Oh, there is lots of territory in Victory cards. Not all Victory cards have to count something in your deck.

Though, the problem with this one is that it literally is a more limited Vineyard. It requires more effort to get, and it gives less VP. In a kingdom with both Vineyard and General, there is no reason to go for General until the Vineyards are gone. Though, the "strictly better" thing might not apply here, since the Vineyard pile has a realistic probability of being emptied, and after that, you might want to buy some Generals anyway.

Truth is, all your constructive criticisms have been very helpful and appreciated, and when I hold my own ground and critique back, it is purely from a 'debate' standpoint and not at all hostile or deaf to points you are making. Thanks for hearing me out, and I look forward to checking out your variants/expansions some day. I've only gotten to peruse a few here so far, but they were all so interesting and awesome looking that I put it aside for when I can better read up and take the time to go through each of the one that have been crafted so well. A lot of cool game design going on here. I'm curious to how some people get their prototype cards and the artwork for them. Most everything I've seen here has been outstanding and very, very cool. Thanks again for all the input and feedback.
I think that a lot of people just use the Google image search for the artworks. There are some alternatives for creating the prototype card images; there's a Photoshop template that you can find on this forum that you can use if you have Photoshop, and there's also a Magic Set Editor template which has some limitations, but it's very convenient to use. Then there are various ways to make actual prototype cards, I've been using just a piece of paper slipped in a sleeve on top of a card for my games.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2014, 11:08:32 am »
+1

I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.

I don't know how much you play, but I've personally logged over 3000 games on goko, and I played nearly everyday for about a year before that. Most people here are in the top 100 on goko, and almost the entire top ten are people from this forum.

As far as the presentation goes, it is meant to be a simple one page concept that anybody can use to play right away if they have Dominion (or Intrigue) and Alchemy. I thought of all caps and such for card titles, but in the end went for a simple no frills version that is low on presentation but at least leaves plenty of room for the imagination.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You presented the cards in the original post in a simple manner, with no caps? You don't have to put images, most people don't. But presenting them in a way that's easy to read is a good thing. The other posts on this forum present cards like this, or in a similar way.

Name
Action-Attack-$4

Effect 1
Effect 2
-----------
Under the line effect

This has nothing to do wit imagination. I write stories, and imagine things all the time. But presenting your card should make others want to read them. You presented them fine, but lke this they would look more like the format of an official card, and therefore more familiar to the readers.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

We should play a few games together. You don't build a deck around buys or coins. Those fit into a deck that buys VP cards. It's an important difference. You get coins in some way, but Treasure cards give you coins too. I'd prefer Silver to most the the $3 cards here, even if they give my $1.


Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.

Sure, there is more than 1 concept, but look at the official expansions. Each card does something almost entirly different from the others. Even if they share something, each card has something unique to offer. This is why people are saying Soldier/Musketeer/Gunman look the same. Each offers roughly the same thing. It's your set, you can do what you like, but it is less interesting for other people is all the cards do the same thing.

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used?

If I want to use it more than once, then yes. Spoils are a special case because you don't buy them, they are gained as part of certain card's effects.

You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent.

Firstly, Alchemist wants to be stuck with Potion. Second of all, I generally use the potion card to buy more than 1 Potion cost card. I buy more than 1 Alchemist, more than 1 Scrying Pool, more than 1 Possession. Gunpowder can only be used to buy 1 card before it leaves. So I spend two buys, two shuffles to play the card once. It's effect needs to be better than "trash 1 card"

I was going to do every card. But the points have been made. I really think we should play a few games together. PM me is you're interested.
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