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ErrinF

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Dominion: Gunpowder
« on: July 02, 2014, 05:21:02 pm »
+6

DOMINION GUNPOWDER

Dominion Gunpowder is an unofficial variant expansion for Donald X. Vaccarino's Dominion. To play Dominion Gunpowder as an expansion to the Dominion base game, you may use the Dominion Alchemy expansion set to represent the Dominion Gunpowder Kingdom cards via replacement. Or you may use any Kingdom cards you choose to be replaced by the Dominion Gunpowder Kingdom cards if you would rather not replace Dominion Alchemy cards when playing Dominion Gunpowder. The quick play replacement option is for those who wish to start playing Dominion Gunpowder right away by using this rule/card sheet, Dominion Alchemy, and a base Dominion set.

The Dominion Gunpowder expansion set consists of 13 cards which may be played as replacement cards for the Dominion Alchemy cards (16 Gunpowder cards and 10 each of the other 12 Kingdom cards). You can use the following list for which Dominion Gunpowder cards replace which Dominion Alchemy cards:

Gunpowder = Potion      
Bomb = Transmute   
Soldier = Apothecary
Musketeer = Alchemist
Grenadier = Philosopher's Stone         
Artillery = Familiar
Cannon = Golem               
Reserves = Apprentice
Garrison = Herbalist
Factory = University
Army = Possession
Sulfur Pit = Scrying Pool
General = Vineyard

The theme of Dominion Gunpowder is that of Medieval use of gunpowder and early modern warfare. This variant expansion follows the exact same rules as Dominion, with the only new dynamic being Attack/Reaction cards which can both make attacks and react to attacks. Attack/Reaction cards follow the exact same rules as all Attack cards and all Reaction cards, and count as both types of cards (either Attack when used as an Attack/Action or Reaction when used to react to an Attack).

Here are the 13 Kingdom cards of the Dominion Gunpowder expansion set:

Gunpowder
Treasure Card - Cost: 2 Coin
After you choose 10 Kingdom cards for the Supply, if any of them have a Gunpowder symbol in the cost, add the Gunpowder pile to the Supply. Also add the Gunpowder pile if you are using the promotional card Black Market and the Black Market deck includes at least one card with a Gunpowder symbol in the cost. Gunpowder is a Basic Treasure card that produces a Gunpowder symbol when played. Buying cards using a Gunpowder symbol works just like buying cards with Coin or Potion symbols, except a Gunpowder card is trashed after it produces a Gunpowder symbol that is used to buy a card with a Gunpowder symbol in the cost (and not trashed if no such card is bought with the Gunpowder symbol produced by that Gunpowder card that turn). A Gunpowder symbol in a card's cost only applies while that card is in the Supply. After that card is bought and put in a player's deck, any Gunpowder symbol on it is counted as +1 to the card's Coin cost for cards that refer to a card's cost.

Bomb Action Card - Cost: 1 Gunpowder
Trash a card from your hand then trash this card.

Soldier Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 1 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand.
__________
When another player plays an Attack card, you may trash this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Musketeer Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 2 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.
__________
When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Grenadier
Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 3 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Each other player discards the top card of their deck. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.
__________
When another player plays an Attack card, you may put this on top of your deck. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Artillery Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 3 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+1 Coin
Choose one: Each other player reveals then discards the top card of their deck. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it; Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.

Cannon Action/Attack/Reaction Card - Cost: 4 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
+2 Coin
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards two cards from their hand, and each other player with 4 cards in hand discards one card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. If two cards costing from 3 to 6 Coin are discarded from this by the same player, he only trashes one of them.

Reserves Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, +1 Card.

Garrison Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, +2 Actions.

Factory Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, +1 Buy and +1 Coin.

Army Action Card - Cost: 6 Coin
+1 Action
Do this twice: Reveal the top card of your deck. Put it in your hand or discard it. If you discard it, choose one: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +1 Coin.

Sulfur Pit Action Card - Cost: 3 Coin
Choose one: +1 Buy; Buy a Gunpowder card immediately from the trash for 2 Coin if a Gunpowder card is in the trash; Buy a Gunpowder card immediately from the Supply for 1 Coin if a Gunpowder card is in the Supply; Buy a Curse card immediately from the Supply for each other player to gain for 1 Coin per other player if a Curse card is in the Supply.
__________
When you trash this, each player (including you) gains a Curse card.

General
Victory Card - Cost: 2 Coin + 1 Gunpowder
Worth 2 Victory Points for every 3 Attack cards in your deck (rounded down). If there are no Attack cards in your deck, worth 2 Victory Points for every 3 identically named Action cards in your deck (rounded down).

Dominion Gunpowder was created by Errin Famiglia 2014. It is not an official Dominion expansion. All creative rights involving Donald X. Vaccarino's Dominion (including this variant in it's creator's opinion) belong solely to Mr. Vaccarino and his publisher Rio Grande Games.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 11:08:25 am by ErrinF »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 05:26:46 pm »
+6

do you want feedback?
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 06:06:56 pm »
+1

I think you need to compare the strength of these cards to those that already exist, as well as the ones in Alchemy. Gunpowder already can't be used to buy more than 1 card, meaning the cards are really hard to buy lots of. The effect need to reflect that. Look at Bomb, which has the effect of trashing 1 card. But it takes multiple shuffles to get it into your deck, the purchase of Gunpowder, then Bomb, then lining it up with a card to trash. the effect is worse than Transmute, and takes the same amount of time to get.

If you don't own all the cards, look up their effects so that you know not only what has been done, but more importantly how strong cards of certain costs need to be. Also take into account the amount of time needed to get these cards. Sure Golem is crazy expensive, but it's effect is very strong. While gunpowder is cheaper, it still takes the same amount of time to get these cards, but you can only buy 1 of them. Their effects need to be extra strong in this case to make up for the fact that you can only buy 1 with each gunpowder.

EDIT: Also, look at how cards like Knights and Militia are worded. You can say "Discard down to 3 cards" as opposed to "Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards two cards from their hand, and each other player with 4 cards in hand discards one card from their hand." These have the same effect, but one is hard to understand, the other isn't. True, the difference is that if I have 7 cards in my hand then I only discard down to 5 cards, but the only cards that do this are Council Room, Soothsayer and Governor. These will not happen enough to warrant the complicated wording, in my mind at least.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 06:14:01 pm by KingZog3 »
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 10:45:43 pm »
0

Sure, feel free to give feedback or playtest the expansion. Its all good... this is just something I did for fun.

As for KingZog's constructive criticism, I meticulously picked out my wording and power balance of cards to fit the excellent guidelines put forth by this forum. Everything in Dominion Gunpowder is deliberately there for balance and to be different from other Kingdom cards in the game.

Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way to other player's decks. The Gunpowder cards are trashed after use to limit how quickly a deck can be filled with cards that have Gunpowder in the cost. I consider Bomb to be incredibly useful because the only other trashing card that can trash itself after use is Hermit (which also requires special circumstances to trash itself). Otherwise, you get stuck with a trashing card like Chapel after it does its work. Use a few Bombs and your deck will clear up quickly.

Besides limiting the destructive power of the Gunpowder cost cards by making the Gunpowder trash itself after use, I wanted Gunpowder to not just be a straight up copy of Potion. What other Treasures trash themselves after use? Counterfeit may trash other treasures, but it doesnt trash itself. Gunpowder is cheaper than a Potion card, trashes itself after use, and the Gunpowder cost in a card vanishes after it leaves the Supply, making it like any other card (unlike the special rules for Potion cost cards). I also think that back in medieval/renaissance times, gunpowder use was very crude and limited, so it should be a task to use Gunpowder in Dominion as well. The Sulfur Pit card sort of remedies that if somebody wants to more easily build up a deck with Gunpowder cost cards. Every card in this expansion is meant to be different than Kingdom cards already in the game. I'm keeping the Gunpowder card as is because that's how it is meant to work, similar to Potion but not identical.

And you are quite mistaken that my wording for Cannon is the same as 'discard down to 3 cards'. Suppose Cannon and Soothsayer (or Governor or Council Room ) are in the Supply. Suppose there are a few players. Soothsayers/Governors get played and player's hands get up to 6 or 7 cards. Then a Cannon card gets played. With my wording, only two cards get hit (just like a Knight would hit two cards, or a Rogue, etc). With your wording, too many cards get discarded and possibly trashed. I picked that wording specifically to avoid such a situation. Its called reducing the 'swinginess' of the game. The scenario I put forth Soothsayers/Governors totally happens enough in gameplay and does indeed warrant precise wording. I would rather be thorough and specific. Its not like my wording is at all that confusing or complicated. Thanks for the feedback, but I'll most likely be keeping this variant expansion as is. Its meant to be limited in a certain way, which includes certain detailed word use so as to avoid too much destructive power when applied to certain situations that may pop up in any given Dominion game.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2014, 11:29:28 pm »
+4

Quote
Sure
alright, so, firstly I highly discourage the idea to make a set of cards that's meant to replace an expansion 1:1. In order to play this, you'd have to print the rules on a piece of paper, and constantly check it. Noone is going to do that, not while there is LF's expansion out there with cards that are ready to be printed and played by itself. Just making it its own thing, without the relation to alchemy, seems like a better idea.

Secondly, it might be a good idea to write cards down like this:
Quote
Some card - Action - Reaction - X$
- Vanilla Bonus
- Vanilla Bonus
- Effekt
or in a similar format, that makes it look better, and people are more used to it.

as far as the cards go

Bomb is weak for the reasons KZ listed.

Quote
I consider Bomb to be incredibly useful because the only other trashing card that can trash itself after use is Hermit (which also requires special circumstances to trash itself). Otherwise, you get stuck with a trashing card like Chapel after it does its work. Use a few Bombs and your deck will clear up quickly.
this isn't quite correct, Death cart can also trash itself, and Island kind of too, but mostly getting rid of one last card just isn't nearly worth enough to make it cost P+$.

KZ is also right about the "discard down to" vs "discard XX cards" thing. You seem to have overread that he addressed the times when it's different in his post, and I agree with him that it's not worth the new and confusing wording.

Soldier is also very weak. +1$ + urchin attack isn't even worth 2$, and the reaction part is even weaker.

Musketeer is very similar, and also very weak. Mostly it will cause estates and coppers to be discarded, therefore doing almost nothing. It's again an on play effect that's generally worse than moat and a reaction which is also worse than moat.

Grenadier is a Knights variant with a swingier version of the same attack and a really weak reaction. it's very weak and it's also not exciting, because well Knights do basically the same thing.

Artillery is very similar and has the same problems. It's stronger, because the vanilla bonus is better, but it's still weak for its cost.

Cannon is a Militia variant, which will mostly be the exact same thing on play, making it very weak considering that it's a P+$ cost card.

Reserves is a Spy variant, but it's almost strictly worse, which is bad because Spy is already pretty weak.

Garrison is an Ironmonger variant, but it's a lot weaker. It's also a weaker version of Reserves, which is already weak.

Factory is the same thing again, this time with one of the 2 other vanilla bonuses to choose from. It's also very weak.

Army is a Lab variant, but it can also be a Peddler+Spy, or Market Square+Spy if you want, or even a CSM + double spy. It's very versatile, but it can always be a lab, which is really good. It might be alright at 6$, it's definitely strong enough.

Sulfur Pit doesn't have a price, but it's pretty much overpriced even if it costs 0$, you're very unlikely to want this in your deck.

General is a Vineyard variant, and it's strictly worse, which is a bad thing considering it costs more. It's also a lot worse. Probably weak, but definitely a poor card next to Vineyard.

Yea, dunno, making good cards is extremely difficult at this point. I come up with ideas constantly, but I drop about 80% of them after thinking about them for a minute, and about 50% of the remaining ones after thinking about them some more, and even then there is a big chance that they don't work out. I can almost guarantee you that no card from this set except for Army is playable as it is, unless I misread them... you said it's something you did for fun though, and that's completely fine.

what do you think soulnet? better?  :)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 11:34:12 pm by silverspawn »
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2014, 11:39:38 pm »
0

Fair point about Canon because it trashes.

However, Bomb is still weak. Unless it's a typo, it currently trashes a card then trashes itself. This is essentially what Island does, but it only costs $4 and gives 2VP. I assume it's supposed to say "trash a card from your hand, you may trash this card," but that's still weak. Single card, terminal trashing isn't super powerful. Look at Trade Route. Early on it give no benefit other than +buy for trashing a card. Sure you can use it in an engine, I do, but it also costs $3 so I can open turn 1 with with.

Army is Lab+ so fine at $6. I would put a little buff on it because I think it's weak for a $6 card, but it clearly has to be because it's better than lab. Not sure what the buff could be because it has all the Pawn options. Have you tested it? Maybe it's fine. I'd buy it over Adventurer.

Reserves and garrison are weak. If you don't discard the card, they are essentially Ruined Village that looks at the top card of your deck. If you do discard then Reserves sifts through 1 card without lowering your hand size, and Garrison would be worse than Village if you discard. Village puts that card into your hand, this discards it. Edge cases aside, it's pretty much always worse and costs $3. At $2 it's still worse than Hamlet which always replaces itself and then gives the option of discarding the same card for both an action or a buy.

To be clear, I'm not saying the idea of Gunpowder is bad. It's similar to Prizes, in the sense that it's hard to get them, and you often wouldn't be getting more than 1 or 2 of a gunpowder card in a game. It's simply that the cards power do not reflect the effort required to get these them.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 11:58:34 pm »
0

To help those who want to give feedback or playtest, here's what I was thinking for some of the Kingdom cards I made for this game...

Gunpowder... I pretty thoroughly explained my reasons for the Gunpowder card rules in the last reply I made in this topic. Its like Potion, but with a few unique rules that make it different. I wanted a Potion type card that was more than just a Basic Treasure card. Obviously, Dominion Gunpowder is heavily inspired by Dominion Alchemy, but I wanted it to be different and not too much like Alchemy. By the way, Alchemy is my second favorite expansion after Cornucopia (love the prizes!). I don't agree with the various criticisms of it (such as Possession's power) and instead think of it as an extremely clever way of introducing magic to the Dominion game. I like the randomness and variety of the Potion cost cards, from Possession to my beloved Golem (By the way, am I the only person who makes decks that are Golem with only ONE type of Action card in the deck? That way I can always rely on the same action. Works great with Scheme and a few other Kingdom cards. Everybody else seems to have Golem be incidental, but if I use Golem, I revolve my whole deck around it).

Bomb... I wanted to have a card that trashes itself after it trashes another card. Inspired by Hermit, but more straightforward.

Soldier/Musketeer/Grenadier... I wanted to create a group of military men with slightly increasing ranks/strength that would be effective in numbers. The Soldiers are expendable, the Musketeers can get wounded but survive, and the Grenadiers retreat to attack again another time. They are all modeled after Militia, Urchin, and Mercenary, as well as Knights/Rogues. I added Attack/Reaction cards to Dominion Gunpowder to have something different from other expansions. I figure that Attack/Reaction cards haven't been created yet as they were probably deemed too strong and swingy to have a card that both attacks and reacts. But I think I avoided that by making these Attack/Reaction cards what they are... limited to just 3 in number in the expansion, and their reactions can be useful but come at a cost... Soldier prevents attack but is trashed. Musketeer prevents an attack but is then discarded and cant be used when its that player's turn. Grenadier has the 'strongest' reaction in that it is only placed on top of the deck and will be in the player's next hand, BUT when Grenadiers are in a deck, it is a pretty precarious position to be that card on top of the deck. So, though a Grenadier may have the best reaction compared to the other two, it sets itself up for being trashed by other Grenadiers (or Artillery if it is in the Supply). I also chose the Attack/Reaction cards as a reflection of the warfare that is brought about by gunpowder use... Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are trained in the art of war, which includes attacking and reacting. This makes them slightly different than most other Attack cards in Dominion, but not in a much more powerful way at all. Another thing about these 3 cards... they are meant to be quite destructive (as well as profitable) if enough of them are used with enough actions in a turn. In the case of this expansion, they are meant to work particularly well in conjunction with the Army card. Lastly, Attack/Reaction cards are blue in color like any other Reaction cards, in case anybody was curious how they'd look if made into a real set.

Artillery... The choice given in Artillery is meant to reflect aiming and firing on the enemy. In this case, you can aim for their hand or aim for their deck. Originally had the choice being between discarding the top card of a deck or the top card of a discard pile, but I realized that factoring in the top card of a discard pile was pointless as players could just discard so as to make their top discard pile card something useless time and again.

Cannon... Modeled after Knights and Militia. I wanted to make sure it was destructive but not too destructive. Kind of an equal match for the Knights in that it does not effect more than two cards per use, and may sometimes effect only one card.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... Basically the same concept: draw your top card and choose between keeping it for use or discarding it to gain something else... +1 Action, +1 Card, +1 Coin, or +1 Buy. Its basically a +1 Action +1 Card card, but with a slight variation. I think it really works well for supporting a military themed deck if a player chooses to build one.

Army... Probably my favorite card in this set and considered by me to be the most powerful in it. It is basically my Reserves/Garrison/Factory concept on steroids. Army is kind of a mix between Laboratory, Crossroads, and Pawn. Its basically a +1 Action +2 Card card, but it allows for huge variation on what it can do for you in a turn, including +3 actions. Used in conjunction with other Army cards, it becomes all the more powerful, and used in conjunction with most of the Gunpowder cost cards (especially Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier), it can cause a lot of destruction as well as generate a lot of Coin. It also works well with most any Action card, as it can be used to create an army of anything... Bureaucrats, Swindlers, Rats... you name it. I debated Army having a Gunpowder symbol in its cost, but I decided against that, as it isn't THAT powerful, plus I wanted it to represent non-military 'armies' that weren't necessarily about waging war. I think the cost is just right for Army.

Sulfur Pit... Originally, Sulfur Pit was just about making Gunpowder cards easier and cheaper to obtain, but then I realized that that wasn't super useful, didn't work if Sulfur Pit was in the Supply and Gunpowder wasn't, and (most importantly) I had no Curses or Cursegivers in this expansion of mine. Not the biggest fan of Cursers, but every Dominion expansion has introduced Kingdom cards that find new ways of using Curse, so I wanted Sulfur Pit to be just that. Sulfur Pit is also an homage to some of my favorite promo cards, Governor and Black Market. Like Black Market, it allows for immediate buys. Like Governor, it allows for a few choices to be made by the player (although the choices are limited if Gunpowder is not in the Supply). I also wanted to make sure that if I made a Curser for this expansion, it would be unique from any other Curser. Not only does Sulfur Pit require an immediate buy being made in order for it to give out Curses, but it also gives a Curse to every player if it is ever trashed by any means. Considering how much trashing can be done with most Gunpowder cost cards, the Sulfur Pit can explosively effect the game in unexpected ways if it is set off. Since Cursing every player is a concept not used before in a Dominion expansion, I wanted to make sure it had a very specific trigger. And though it may seem like cursing everybody wont effect game balance much, if strategically done (with a Trader, Watchtower, etc) it can be useful to a player. Also, if there aren't enough Curses in the Supply for every player, only certain players will get Curses and some won't (per the usual rules of doling out Curses).... Speaking of, if there are more players than there are Curses in the Supply, Sulfur Pit can still be used to dish out the last of the Curses, only the cost for ALL other players still applies even if only some of the other players actually get curse. In addition, the 'curse everybody if trashed accidentally or otherwise' side effect of the Sulfur Pit card is meant to be a deliberate risk for any player using Sulfur Pit... it might very well blow up in their face! One last note... The Sulfur Pit is able to 'curse' for a variety of reasons... perhaps an evil spirit dwells in it, or it is used to by a witches as an ingredient for their curses, or maybe just used to make mundane bombs that 'curse' a player with their destructiveness. Personally, I like to think the payment made to use Sulfur Pit to curse is either tribute to a devilish spirit in the pit or payment for a local witch to curse your opponents. Maybe it's both. Whatever the case, I really like how strange and unique Sulfur Pit ended up being in its final form now.

General... Kind of a mix of Vineyard and Fairgrounds, although it rewards identical cards rather than different cards. Originally called General, I briefly changed it to Armada. But then I realized Armada was specific to a fleet of warships. I also had it originally be just about Attack cards, but then I realized that there are many Dominion games played where the Supply ends up having no Attack cards at all. So I changed it to any grouping of three identical cards, and it actually fits much better as well as tying up that particular loose end for when no Attack cards show up in the Supply for a game. This also fits in with the Army card theme of being part of a large organization that isn't necessarily military-based. For instance, if you have a bunch of Doctors in your deck and a General, then you have a Surgeon General. A bunch of Envoys and a General in your deck... Postmaster General (of sorts). A General can be a General of anything when it comes down to it, although the military General is still the basis for the General card. Unlike Vineyard or Fairgrounds, I'm not sure a deck can be made revolving around General (at least one that will win or create a large amount of VP), but I can see it making a difference on the margins. Maybe I'm wrong though and there is a way to make a very VP rich General deck, perhaps with enough buys made of the cheaper Action cards.

So there you go. That's what I was thinking for most of the cards in this expansion. I'm really happy with how it all turned out.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 12:05:54 am »
+3

It feels like two card ideas spread out on 13 unique cards, power-wise too. But the Gunpowder as a concept is pretty nice.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 12:07:06 am by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 12:22:42 am »
0

I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 12:24:43 am »
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The theme and names are good. The feedback most about how the cards are mostly not worth every buying. Cannon may be equal with knights, but it's so much harder to get. Bomb has an effect that's nearly the same as Island, but lacks the VP bonus and takes longer to get.

Awaclus also has a point that many of the cards are almost the same as each other. Imagine they are all in the same set-up. What make me want to pick one over the other? All the official cards have pros and cons, or are simply priced in a way that makes them easier to acquire. Like Village and Bazaar. Village is cheap, Bazaar is expensive. My incentive to buy Village is that it's much much easier to accumulate many of them quickly, while my incentive to buy Bazaar is that it's effect is much stronger than Village. Soldier/musketeer/Gunman are all nearly the same and since Gunpowder can only be used once, the isn't much incentive to buy all the different cards. I'll aim for which ever card I can afford first because their effect is very similar. Also, as said before Gunman is essentially a $5 worse than Urchin.

Army is a good, probably balanced utility card.

EDIT: To be clear, this isn't me trying to be a hard-ass. I think if you find playing with these cards fun there is no problem with them. I'm just putting them into context with the official cards, as well as with my own perspective. This is just because I know when I first posted cards here I thought people were being harsh unfairly, even though they didn't mean anything mean by what they were posting.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 12:27:30 am by KingZog3 »
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 12:25:23 am »
0

I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 12:30:45 am »
0

I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?

I've never read the term before I think.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 12:39:09 am »
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I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?

I've never read the term before I think.

I dunno. Aren't you in Europe somewhere? Like English isn't your first language? Because I've probably never read most German words in my life before :P
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 12:48:36 am »
0

I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???

You've never heard of gunpowder before?

I've never read the term before I think.

I dunno. Aren't you in Europe somewhere? Like English isn't your first language? Because I've probably never read most German words in my life before :P

yea but i read a lot of english stuff recently. like, several hours each day. but it's not the kind of literature where gun powder is likely to appear.
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matste

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 01:12:53 am »
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Garrison is strictly worse than Hamlet. That's the main problem with your expansion - cards are very weak. Unless I'm missing some crazy interaction, straight Big Money wins with any gunpowder based deck.
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matste

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 01:17:56 am »
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I've been reading something, and I've just hit the term gun powder... well I guess it's not such an uncommon term, but it is in the kind of stuff I was reading, I don't think it has ever appeared before. really weird coincidence  ???
I think I learned that word from computer games like Civilization and Age of Empires. That's strange that a Dominion player has never heard of it.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 03:09:19 am »
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I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.

The 1:1 match up with Alchemy was something I thought up just recently, and ended up liking a lot, and makes my expansion a lot more playable in real life. Dominion Gunpowder IS its own expansion, but I wanted it to be accessible and easily playable to anybody who wanted to give it a try. They don't have to print out seperate version or anything like that... they just use Alchemy as replacement cards and can start playing Dominion Gunpowder just like that. If somebody wants to make up a whole separate set for Gunpowder, they can, but they can just as easily use the replacement method I suggest in this forum's initial post. I did think about how this could limit a player if they wanted Alchemy cards and Gunpowder cards in the Supply for a game. But I was okay with it because it then comes down to the classic dichotomy of magic versus guns... one or the other. I would prefer Dominion Gunpowder to be thought of as its own set though, and the 'use as replacement cards for Alchemy' idea is simply a very basic way for people to start playing this as is. Unfortunately, all the Dominion cards I own are the virtual ones over at Goko (of which I have all but Walled Village). I do play on buying Dominion in the somewhat near future, only I just recently acquired ALL of the Arkham Horror games/expansions so I probably wont be getting hard copies of Dominion for a few months. Still, I put this up here more for others to play than me. I just wish I could playtest this more myself. I'm sure I will someday.

As far as the presentation goes, it is meant to be a simple one page concept that anybody can use to play right away if they have Dominion (or Intrigue) and Alchemy. I thought of all caps and such for card titles, but in the end went for a simple no frills version that is low on presentation but at least leaves plenty of room for the imagination.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.

As for the individual criticisms of each card...

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.

Bomb... Interesting this is the main point of contention, as Bomb was the first card I thought of that then lead to the whole gunpowder/warfare concept behind this expansion. All I wanted to do was make a card that can trash any card then goes away itself. I dont like being stuck with Chapel after it has made itself useful by clearing the deck, and other such cards that Trash. Let's compare Bomb to other cards that trash. Hermit is the only other card that trashes itself. But it cannot trash any card. Bomb can. And to trash Hermit, you first have to gain a card of 3 or less Coin value, and then NOT make a buy for your turn, and Hermit might not even get to trash any other card that turn before it trashes itself. Hermit then gets trashed and you get a Madman card. Madman is useful (and returns to the Supply), but still stays in your deck til used, and whatever the Hermit gained of 3 coin or less stays stuck in your hand til trashed. Death Cart cant even be brought up in comparison really, because although it trashes itself, its not a card one gets to clean up their deck by trashing. It only trashes Action cards, not the junk like estates and copper. I continue to feel Bomb is just right for its cost as it is a very powerful one time use card, with only General being the cheaper Gunpowder cost card (and General is just a Victory card that does nothing else but VP). If you dont think it is strong, I don't think you quite value how strongly trashing effects a deck's power. Nothing is more deadly than a deck with all its useless junk removed. Ever heard of the Big Move, where you gather a ton of VP in one turn? You can usually only do that with a deck thoroughly cleaned up and made super effective by selective trashing. Bomb allows for the somewhat quick creation of a small but effective deck, especially since the Gunpowder card used to buy the Bomb trashes itself too. And though Hermit would beat out Bomb in the short term, once it comes time to trash the coppers, you are out of luck when it comes to Hermit. While it takes a few turns for a Bomb to get bought and used, the end result is a small, effective deck. Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing. To me, I think of it as the cheapest of the Gunpowder cost cards.

Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?

Musketeer... Not very weak at all. If he hits a good hand later in the game, a lot more than estates and coppers are going to be discarded. And if he hits a deck with most or all of its coppers and estates trashed, you're going to hit something good. Musketeer is very effective against good decks. Ya, you're right, he's not so great against weak, crappy decks full of cards that need to be trashed. But what threat is that kind of deck to anybody? Musketeer is stronger than that deck because he can damage well built decks. And again, a one time Moat at the right time can be very useful, and change the game balance in certain struggles. Suppose Musketeer is the only card in the Supply that prevents attacks? How many cards in Dominion do prevent attacks? Not many. And they certainly don't make attacks too, let alone ones with the potential to trash cards from 3 to 6 coin cost. And once again I will point out that Musketeer is meant to be used in numbers like a military. Like Soldier, the more Musketeers you get and can put into action, the more powerful your deck will become. I suppose that can be said of any card, but in this case, these cards are meant to have strength in numbers.

Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.

Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol

Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... These cards are all actually your typical +1 action +1 card that cost 3 coin. They simply allow you to go through your deck and make use of useless cards you might draw (Victory Cards, extra actions cards you cant play, etc). To call these cards weak is missing the point. Not every card in an expansion is meant to be strong. Some are more supportive They are 3 coin cost cards, and they each allow a unique mechanic that other cards in the official Dominion don't have. No comparison to Spy or Ironmonger or any card that has you look at a card then choose to discard it or put it back. These cards let you choose to discard it or put it in your hand. Spy doesnt do that. Ironmonger doesnt do that. You actually put the card in hand for use if it is useful, or you make it useful if it is useless by turning it into an Action/Card/Coin/Buy. All of these 3 cards allow you to sort through your deck at a slightly faster pace and make use of otherwise unusable cards. I have no idea why you would think that is not useful because it can be incredibly useful if done right. Not gamechanging, but helpful and can lead to winning in the long run.

Army... Again, not comparable to Spy. It does not look at a card then decide to discard it or put it back. It actually gets the next card and can put it in hand, unless you'd rather discard that card to instead choose between the 4 bonuses. Due to its amount of actions it can create (+3) it becomes even more powerful the more Army cards you have. This is also the card that makes the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers a lot more formidable if it also happens to be in the Supply.

Sulfur Pit... Didn't notice I left out the cost in all the reworking I did of this, but I edited that typo since you pointed it out. Thanks for that. Sulfur Pit costs 3 Coin and I guarantee you that you'd buy it if it was the only Curser in the Supply (unless you want to be Cursed to death by your opponents) or if you want to build a deck of Gunpowder cost cards. It actually works best in conjunction with the Gunpowder card, as it allows you to gather Gunpowder cards with free buys, buy Gunpowder from the Supply for only 2 Coin, and be able to buy Gunpowder from the trash at all. And one thing about Sulfur Pit... It cannot be accused of being too 'samey'. It is a very unique card.

General... General is indeed just meant to be the 'Vineyard' of this set. It's requirement for VP is highly specialized. Most every expansion has a Victory card or two, and I wanted one for this expansion too. General fits just right thematically, and does have its uses, but being that it is modeled after Vineyard but in a more limited way, it is what it is. There's really no territory left in Victory cards except for basing one off of Attacks. I will try to think of a way to possibly change General so that it gets more bang if it fulfills its very specific conditions, but if that approach ends up making it too powerful, I'll probably have to keep it as is. Of all the criticisms, I feel this one has been the most constructive.

Truth is, all your constructive criticisms have been very helpful and appreciated, and when I hold my own ground and critique back, it is purely from a 'debate' standpoint and not at all hostile or deaf to points you are making. Thanks for hearing me out, and I look forward to checking out your variants/expansions some day. I've only gotten to peruse a few here so far, but they were all so interesting and awesome looking that I put it aside for when I can better read up and take the time to go through each of the one that have been crafted so well. A lot of cool game design going on here. I'm curious to how some people get their prototype cards and the artwork for them. Most everything I've seen here has been outstanding and very, very cool. Thanks again for all the input and feedback.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 03:31:20 am »
+1

Ok, I made a quick change to General. It gives 1 VP for every 3 Attack cards in your deck and also gives 1 VP for every 3 identically named Action cards in your deck that are not Attack cards. I feel this greatly improves its strength/worth and also made it fit in better with the military theme... a good army has attack units and support units. Didn't make this card super strong with this change, but its never meant to be that strong. This is most likely the only change I'm going to make to this expansion because all the other ones are pretty much set to be what they are.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 03:54:54 am »
+1

Now I'm thinking there is one more change I need to make that might just remedy the main criticism I am getting about Gunpowder cost cards not being worth their relative cost.

I think this is the solution... What if I change the cost of the Gunpowder card to 2 Coin? Not only will that make it a uniquely priced Treasure card, it will also make building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a lot more competitive.

If I do change the Gunpowder card cost to 2 Coin, I'll then alter Sulfur Pit to buy Gunpowder from the Supply for 1 Coin or from the trash for 2 Coin.

I think I'll probably go in that direction, but I need to contemplate first if this would make the Gunpowder cost cards too easily accessible. They can be greatly destructive of other player's decks if used in numbers, so I am cautious about doing anything that will make this expansion too 'swingy'.

What do you think? Will having the Gunpowder cost being 2 instead of 3 make the cards in this expansion more functionable and strong? I'll have to think about it a little. Thanks again for the input.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 04:18:32 am »
+1

Actually, I thought about it a little more before calling it a night, and changing the Gunpowder cost to 2 Coin is exactly what needs to be done, so I've already done it. The selling point for me was that lowering the cost of Gunpowder to 2 Coin then made it immune to trashing attacks of most of the Gunpowder cost cards. Also, gunpowder wouldn't require very expensive ingredients to make when it comes down to it, so a 2 Coin cost is more apt than a 3 point cost. And there's no Treasure card that costs 2 Coin, so I like that uniqueness for Gunpowder. Seems to me to be a more reasonable investment for a card that trashes itself after use.

The 2 point cost thing reminds me of a 'hidden strength' of the Soldier I forgot to mention... once bought, he becomes equal to 2 coin value and is therefore immune to Knight attacks, Saboteur attacks, and most attacks of the other Gunpowder cost cards.

Thank you so very much for helping me improve this expansion in a way that makes it more appealing and competitive. Because of your feedback, the Gunpowder card and the General card definitely improved over my original concept for them. Much appreciated. : )
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 04:19:38 am by ErrinF »
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2014, 09:11:51 am »
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Quote
I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.

Most of the people here play the game very much, I assure you. Trashing is important, but only if you can do it fast enough, otherwise your engine won't kick in fast enough. Preventing attacks definitely takes a backseat to launching attacks. You'll notice there are 35 attack cards in Dominion, but only 10 reactions, only half of which can be said to mitigate attacks. Attacking is just so much better than blocking attacks. I agree with the other folks on here in that a lot of these cards seem very weak.

Bomb, as has been pointed out, is just... so... slow. I have to buy Gunpowder, shuffle it in, buy Bomb, shuffle it in, and finally get to trash... one card? I'd have to empty the Bomb pile to get rid of my starting cards, not to mention all the actions I'd use playing them or the other buys I'd be spending on Gunpowder. The one-at-a-time trashers in Dominion, you will notice, aren't really primarily about trashing, it just comes as a nice bonus. Hermit is about something else entirely, Altar is about gaining good $5's, Trade Route gets you some cash, Island nets you VP, Spice Merchant give you some flexibility, and so forth. Bomb needs to trash more than one card, and possibly have the self-trash be optional. You mention how you don't like having your Chapel hanging around once you've got a thin deck, but think about it - would you rather have a single dead Chapel for 10 turns in a thin deck, or have to draw and play 10 Bombs in a deck that's only slowly getting better?

Quote
Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing.

So... why would I want a Bomb instead of an Island, again? It takes longer to get and doesn't give me a VP bonus. You yourself say Island is superior, and then say Bomb is equally useful.The cards definitely do not "conceptually cost the same", since the Gunpowder cost is severely going to limit when and how many Bombs you can get.

Garrison gives +2 actions or +1 card +1 action.The first is equivalent to Necropolis, a card that's usually a burden. The second is strictly worse than Scheme, which costs the same amount. I don't think the choice is worth the cost.

Sulfur Pit confuses me a little about how the Gunpowder Buy happens immediately. Can I play treasure after playing Sulfur Pit? If so, you're opening a Black Market Pandora's Box.

Soldier seems a bit weak, especially in the face of Musketeers and Grenadiers. The Urchin effect doesn't do a whole lot, and trashing itself to prevent an attack really hurts when it's a Gunpowder-cost card. It's pretty much a no-buy if Musketeer or Grenadiers are on the board.

Reserves might be OK, I can't really decide. The Spy and draw in one turn is nice, and Great Hall is another cantrip with only a weak bonus, so this might be OK at $3.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 09:14:42 am »
+7

ill never understand how the amount of response in forums works
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Kirian

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2014, 10:25:24 am »
+1

Some people have likened the Potion cost to an opportunity cost of about 2.5 coin.  This is because, in order to buy a potion-cost card, you have to buy the Potion, wait a shuffle, buy the Potion-cost card, wait another shuffle.  With excellent luck, the earliest you can play a Potion card is T5; with terrible luck, you won't play the first Potion card until T8 or T9!  So you can expect the same from any of the Gunpowder cards.

Now, the Gunpowder itself is cheaper, but the fact that you have to trash it means you only get to buy a single Gunpowder-cost card for each Gunpowder you buy--whereas with Potion, I can buy a potion-cost card in every shuffle after the one where I buy the Potion.  Because of the forced trashing, I would say that gunpowder-cost cards have a similar opportunity cost--about 2.5 coin.  Let's look at your cards under that light.

Bomb: Costs "3.5": Trash a card from your hand then trash this card.

This costs more than Transmute or Trade Route, which are two of the least useful trashers in the game.  And it does less than either one, because it's only useful once.  The best comparison is Island, as mentioned multiple times before... except that you can use Island in the second shuffle, and it gives you 2 VP.  And it only "costs" 0.5 more.  This card is, dare I say, worse than Scout.

Soldier (Action/Attack/Reaction card) Costs "4.5" +1 Coin. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. __________ When another player plays an Attack card, you may trash this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

I rather like the idea of a Reaction that is also an attack--it's been done elsewhere.  But the reaction isn't very strong--and again requires trashing rather than discarding or revealing.  So, half a Militia plus an extremely weak reaction for a higher cost... no.  This is never worth buying.

Musketeer (Action/Attack/Reaction card) Costs "5.5". +1 Coin. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. __________ When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

OK, so this is... the same as Soldier, except the reaction is a discard rather than a trash.  Because the Knight portion is almost never going to happen.  95% of discards to this will be Estate, Copper, or Curse.  Still not worth as much as Militia.

Grenadier (Action/Attack/Reaction card) Costs "6.5". +1 Coin. Each other player discards the top card of their deck. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. __________ When another player plays an Attack card, you may put this on top of your deck. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

OK, this is... yet another card that's nearly the same as Soldier.  At a ridiculous cost.  I think there's the core of a card idea here, but there aren't three cards' worth of ideas.

Artillery (Action/Attack card) Costs "6.5". +2 Coin. Choose one: Each other player reveals then discards the top card of their deck; Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it.

Worse than Dame Sylvia--or any other Knight--for a huge cost.  And not creatively different from the previous three cards.

Cannon (Action/Attack card) Costs 1 Gunpowder and 5 Coin. +2 Coin. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards two cards from their hand, and each other player with 4 cards in hand discards one card from their hand. If a card costing from 3 to 6 Coin is discarded from this, trash it. If two cards costing from 3 to 6 Coin are discarded from this by the same player, he only trashes one of them.

OK, so I was going to go through all of these to critique, but I'm stopping here, because that's four variants on the same card, all of which are weaker than cheaper cards.  If you're having fun with them, great... but these aren't worth examining any longer.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2014, 10:35:35 am »
+1

I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.
Yes, we actually do. I, for instance, have played over 4000 games online, and both I and silverspawn are generally in the top50 of the Pro leaderboard. Trashing does affect gameplay greatly, but most official trashers are actually very powerful at trashing. Chapel trashes 4 cards at a time. Steward trashes 2 cards at a time and turns into a useful card later. Ambassador gets rid of two cards while handing out one over to all of your opponents. Masquerade trashes only one card, but it lets you do so while still having 5 cards that you can use in your buy phase. Lookout and Trade Route might be weak cards in general, but at least they still take only one turn to acquire, and eventually even a single Trade Route will have cleared most of the junk cards in your deck.

Preventing attacks really is of little consequence. Moat is an incredibly weak card, I usually don't buy a Moat if it's the only $2 card in the kingdom and I have $2 to spend. Lighthouse is a strong card, but only because it's non-terminal and also beneficial for the extra coins it gives.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.
Donald X. had an expansion called "War" that he was planning at some point. Later, that expansion became what we know as Dark Ages today. It has more variety than any other official expansion. Dominion has some groups of cards that are similar with each other because a Village variant should be available pretty often, because a Smithy variant should be available pretty often and because a curser should be available pretty often. Every time Donald X. releases a new expansion, the expansion has some Villages, some Smithies and a curser that are relevant to that expansion — for example, Seaside, which is about caring about your next turn, has a curser which deals Curses on the opponents' decks, a +actions card which lets you save cards for your future turns and a +cards card which draws you more cards during your next turn. There isn't an expansion with 13 Villages of different price points and power levels.

And why would you ever get Garrison over Village? Why would you ever get Factory over Squire?

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.
I think that Gunpowder is fine. It's the cards that are basically never worth the investment. Yes, you have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak, that's true, but you can't just ignore the strong/weak standard either. If the card is too strong or too weak, it's not fun to play with.

I continue to feel Bomb is just right for its cost as it is a very powerful one time use card, with only General being the cheaper Gunpowder cost card (and General is just a Victory card that does nothing else but VP). If you dont think it is strong, I don't think you quite value how strongly trashing effects a deck's power. Nothing is more deadly than a deck with all its useless junk removed. Ever heard of the Big Move, where you gather a ton of VP in one turn? You can usually only do that with a deck thoroughly cleaned up and made super effective by selective trashing. Bomb allows for the somewhat quick creation of a small but effective deck, especially since the Gunpowder card used to buy the Bomb trashes itself too. And though Hermit would beat out Bomb in the short term, once it comes time to trash the coppers, you are out of luck when it comes to Hermit. While it takes a few turns for a Bomb to get bought and used, the end result is a small, effective deck. Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing. To me, I think of it as the cheapest of the Gunpowder cost cards.
Bomb doesn't remove all the useless junk. It removes one card. Chapel removes all the useless junk. Count removes all the useless junk. Even Trade Route removes all the useless junk eventually. But Bomb will never remove more than one useless card, it's more expensive than Trade Route, and takes one extra shuffle to get. Having a single trasher in your deck isn't too bad, any engine should be able to overcome one useless card. Spending 10 turns buying Gunpowders, another 10 turns buying Bombs and another 10 turns using the Bombs in order to get rid of all of the starting junk in your deck is WAY too bad — your opponent can Ambassador you more junk faster than you can get rid of it with Bombs.

Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?
But he isn't cheap! He costs $4 and two turns, that's more than Militia, whose effect is way more effective. And yes, he is incredibly useless even if he is the only reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks, because preventing attacks is almost useless in the first place, and Soldier sucks at it — you still lose a card from your hand.

Musketeer... Not very weak at all. If he hits a good hand later in the game, a lot more than estates and coppers are going to be discarded. And if he hits a deck with most or all of its coppers and estates trashed, you're going to hit something good. Musketeer is very effective against good decks. Ya, you're right, he's not so great against weak, crappy decks full of cards that need to be trashed. But what threat is that kind of deck to anybody? Musketeer is stronger than that deck because he can damage well built decks. And again, a one time Moat at the right time can be very useful, and change the game balance in certain struggles. Suppose Musketeer is the only card in the Supply that prevents attacks? How many cards in Dominion do prevent attacks? Not many. And they certainly don't make attacks too, let alone ones with the potential to trash cards from 3 to 6 coin cost. And once again I will point out that Musketeer is meant to be used in numbers like a military. Like Soldier, the more Musketeers you get and can put into action, the more powerful your deck will become. I suppose that can be said of any card, but in this case, these cards are meant to have strength in numbers.
It is easy to become immune against Musketeer by keeping just a couple of bad cards in your deck. People are already doing this in Masquerade games, but it's even easier against Musketeer since the bad cards can be Provinces as well. And Musketeer costs a lot more than Masquerade, and has a weaker vanilla bonus than Masquerade. Furthermore, there are strategies such as Silk Roads rush that basically always have Coppers or Estates to discard, and are a strong threat.

Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.
Does Grenadier make a player discard from hand? It doesn't look like it does.

Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol
Yes, I would actually rather have Dame Sylvia, in every situation in every game. On top of that, Dame Sylvia is cheaper and faster to get.

Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.
A strong deck of cards wins the game regardless of Cannon.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... These cards are all actually your typical +1 action +1 card that cost 3 coin. They simply allow you to go through your deck and make use of useless cards you might draw (Victory Cards, extra actions cards you cant play, etc). To call these cards weak is missing the point. Not every card in an expansion is meant to be strong. Some are more supportive They are 3 coin cost cards, and they each allow a unique mechanic that other cards in the official Dominion don't have. No comparison to Spy or Ironmonger or any card that has you look at a card then choose to discard it or put it back. These cards let you choose to discard it or put it in your hand. Spy doesnt do that. Ironmonger doesnt do that. You actually put the card in hand for use if it is useful, or you make it useful if it is useless by turning it into an Action/Card/Coin/Buy. All of these 3 cards allow you to sort through your deck at a slightly faster pace and make use of otherwise unusable cards. I have no idea why you would think that is not useful because it can be incredibly useful if done right. Not gamechanging, but helpful and can lead to winning in the long run.
Where did all the useless cards now sprout up from? Wasn't that supposed to be the last standard you'd ever use to judge a Dominion card?

Either way, Reserves is strictly inferior to Sage, an already weak $3 card. Garrison is strictly inferior to Hamlet, a $2 card. Factory is *this* close to being strictly inferior to Pawn, a weakish $2 card. They really are weak cards even in the situations where they shine.

Army... Again, not comparable to Spy. It does not look at a card then decide to discard it or put it back. It actually gets the next card and can put it in hand, unless you'd rather discard that card to instead choose between the 4 bonuses. Due to its amount of actions it can create (+3) it becomes even more powerful the more Army cards you have. This is also the card that makes the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers a lot more formidable if it also happens to be in the Supply.
If you're creating +3 actions with it, you're wasting the card. Its main use should be +1 action, +2 cards and hope to discard some bad cards while you're doing it, which is fine, although slightly weak for $6.

Sulfur Pit... Didn't notice I left out the cost in all the reworking I did of this, but I edited that typo since you pointed it out. Thanks for that. Sulfur Pit costs 3 Coin and I guarantee you that you'd buy it if it was the only Curser in the Supply (unless you want to be Cursed to death by your opponents) or if you want to build a deck of Gunpowder cost cards. It actually works best in conjunction with the Gunpowder card, as it allows you to gather Gunpowder cards with free buys, buy Gunpowder from the Supply for only 2 Coin, and be able to buy Gunpowder from the trash at all. And one thing about Sulfur Pit... It cannot be accused of being too 'samey'. It is a very unique card.
It seems fine power-wise, but rather than doing the wonky Black Market thing, you should probably just make the player discard a Treasure card since two of the options cost only $1 anyway, and the third option doesn't appear to be that much stronger.

General... General is indeed just meant to be the 'Vineyard' of this set. It's requirement for VP is highly specialized. Most every expansion has a Victory card or two, and I wanted one for this expansion too. General fits just right thematically, and does have its uses, but being that it is modeled after Vineyard but in a more limited way, it is what it is. There's really no territory left in Victory cards except for basing one off of Attacks. I will try to think of a way to possibly change General so that it gets more bang if it fulfills its very specific conditions, but if that approach ends up making it too powerful, I'll probably have to keep it as is. Of all the criticisms, I feel this one has been the most constructive.
Oh, there is lots of territory in Victory cards. Not all Victory cards have to count something in your deck.

Though, the problem with this one is that it literally is a more limited Vineyard. It requires more effort to get, and it gives less VP. In a kingdom with both Vineyard and General, there is no reason to go for General until the Vineyards are gone. Though, the "strictly better" thing might not apply here, since the Vineyard pile has a realistic probability of being emptied, and after that, you might want to buy some Generals anyway.

Truth is, all your constructive criticisms have been very helpful and appreciated, and when I hold my own ground and critique back, it is purely from a 'debate' standpoint and not at all hostile or deaf to points you are making. Thanks for hearing me out, and I look forward to checking out your variants/expansions some day. I've only gotten to peruse a few here so far, but they were all so interesting and awesome looking that I put it aside for when I can better read up and take the time to go through each of the one that have been crafted so well. A lot of cool game design going on here. I'm curious to how some people get their prototype cards and the artwork for them. Most everything I've seen here has been outstanding and very, very cool. Thanks again for all the input and feedback.
I think that a lot of people just use the Google image search for the artworks. There are some alternatives for creating the prototype card images; there's a Photoshop template that you can find on this forum that you can use if you have Photoshop, and there's also a Magic Set Editor template which has some limitations, but it's very convenient to use. Then there are various ways to make actual prototype cards, I've been using just a piece of paper slipped in a sleeve on top of a card for my games.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2014, 11:08:32 am »
+1

I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.

I don't know how much you play, but I've personally logged over 3000 games on goko, and I played nearly everyday for about a year before that. Most people here are in the top 100 on goko, and almost the entire top ten are people from this forum.

As far as the presentation goes, it is meant to be a simple one page concept that anybody can use to play right away if they have Dominion (or Intrigue) and Alchemy. I thought of all caps and such for card titles, but in the end went for a simple no frills version that is low on presentation but at least leaves plenty of room for the imagination.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You presented the cards in the original post in a simple manner, with no caps? You don't have to put images, most people don't. But presenting them in a way that's easy to read is a good thing. The other posts on this forum present cards like this, or in a similar way.

Name
Action-Attack-$4

Effect 1
Effect 2
-----------
Under the line effect

This has nothing to do wit imagination. I write stories, and imagine things all the time. But presenting your card should make others want to read them. You presented them fine, but lke this they would look more like the format of an official card, and therefore more familiar to the readers.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

We should play a few games together. You don't build a deck around buys or coins. Those fit into a deck that buys VP cards. It's an important difference. You get coins in some way, but Treasure cards give you coins too. I'd prefer Silver to most the the $3 cards here, even if they give my $1.


Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.

Sure, there is more than 1 concept, but look at the official expansions. Each card does something almost entirly different from the others. Even if they share something, each card has something unique to offer. This is why people are saying Soldier/Musketeer/Gunman look the same. Each offers roughly the same thing. It's your set, you can do what you like, but it is less interesting for other people is all the cards do the same thing.

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used?

If I want to use it more than once, then yes. Spoils are a special case because you don't buy them, they are gained as part of certain card's effects.

You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent.

Firstly, Alchemist wants to be stuck with Potion. Second of all, I generally use the potion card to buy more than 1 Potion cost card. I buy more than 1 Alchemist, more than 1 Scrying Pool, more than 1 Possession. Gunpowder can only be used to buy 1 card before it leaves. So I spend two buys, two shuffles to play the card once. It's effect needs to be better than "trash 1 card"

I was going to do every card. But the points have been made. I really think we should play a few games together. PM me is you're interested.
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enfynet

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2014, 11:11:18 am »
0

Maybe I'm alone, but the proposed idea to "replace Alchemy" seems much worse than "inspired by Alchemy"...

I really think these cards need to be tested two or three at a time among other Dominion cards. Even test them up against Alchemy cards. What I might suggest, is make "Gunpowder" a Minion variant that provides the new currency, or attacks other players.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2014, 01:11:55 pm »
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Oh, okay. So you guys are hardcore into Dominion. Now I get a little better where you are coming from. I thought you were being a tad nonchalant about some things (trashing, preventing attacks), but I get that you were from a Big Picture perspective about Dominion that I don't quite have. I enjoy Dominion a lot, but it is just one of many games I like. And creating one page games (in this case a variant expansion of a game already made) is a hobby of mine. Remind me to avoid playing you at Goko! lol Seriously, though, I feel really lucky and honored that such experienced Dominion players took the time to offer feedback for this variant expansion. Thanks so much. And I'd gladly play any of you at Goko. I've only broken 5000 before in pro points, but i'm real low now (like 4300) cuz it crashed on me so many times that i stopped taking it seriously for a few days and just played to try out different decks.

Anyway, no wonder your suggestions have been so helpful and on the money. I got a chance to think about a lot of them and here's the changes I made to Dominion Gunpowder...

Gunpowder... Changed it from a cost of 3 Coin to a cost of 2 Coin. Makes it more affordable and also lowers the overall cost of Gunpowder cost cards. Bomb is therefore worth 3 Coin overall, making it equal in cost to Hermit as well as a cheaper version of Island. Soldier is now worth 4 coin overall. And so on with the rest of the Gunpowder cost cards.

General... The reworking I did of General last night didn't really work. Without Attack cards in the Supply, he was quite useless, and with them in the Supply, he still wasn't all that great. So what I did was go back to the original idea for General being a Vineyard variant, only I upped the VP reward to reflect that the General condition is even harder to fulfill than Vineyard's. So now General gives 2 VP for every 3 Attack cards in your deck (rounded down), and if there are no Attack cards in your deck, General gives 2 VP for every 3 identically named Action cards in your deck. That makes him a lot more formidable, at least as formidable as a Vineyard variant can be.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... I ended up thinking about these a lot because it seemed that there was a lot of variety in what various critics and myself were likening these cards to. The more I thought about it, they seemed like Hamlet variants more than any other card. Only I couldn't lower their cost to 2, because that would make them immune to cards that trash other players' cards worth 3 to 6 Coin, a mechanic that is key to Dominion Gunpowder. So I decided I had to strengthen the cards a little. Except for Reserves, which seemed like it was already fine at 3 cost because it is in essence a cheap version of Laboratory... You draw a card and if you don't like it, you discard it to draw another card. I changed Garrison so that it now gives +2 Actions if you discard the drawn card. That makes it more like a Village type card and also fits the Garrison theme better of having a garrison waiting to act when needed. I changed Factory so that it gives +1 Buy and +1 Coin if you discard the drawn card. So now it is stronger and better fits the factory theme of being able to mass produce cheap goods. I really like where these are at now and feel they are a vast improvement over their original form.

As for the presentation, point well taken. I wasn't aware that there was an established format that would make these cards easier to read and more digestible to this particular online community. After I finish typing this post, I will alter Dominion Gunpowder to fit that format. I want this expansion to be easy and accessible, so I'll gladly change it up to fit in better here.

Lastly, I remain surprised that the whole 'replace Alchemy to play Gunpowder' has been somewhat controversial, or at least thought of as a bad idea sans any controversy. I merely thought of it as an easy way somebody out there could play this expansion if they wanted to. I think the point you all are trying to make is that, though modeled after and inspired by Alchemy, I should just make Gunpowder a completely separate thing without throwing in the replacement thing. What I might do is alter the replacement 'rule' to be more of a suggestion for those who would like to playtest Dominion Gunpowder. It'd be more a postscript mentioned after the card descriptions rather than one of the first things said in the expansion rules. What I'm also wondering is if you all have made print and play versions of your own variants/expansions/cards and are suggesting I do the same with Dominion Gunpowder. Not sure if that is something I'd have the time and interest to do, but I might end up pursuing that if that's the best thing for making this available to people that will actually play it.

Thanks again for all the constructive criticism. I think I've made all the right changes to this expansion set, and don't really foresee any more. Perfectly understood if these cards still aren't quite some people's cup of tea, but it is what it is, and that's good enough for me because I like the overall theme of this expansion as well as the individual cards I ended up making. This has really been a fun and interesting learning experience when it comes to Dominion and game design.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2014, 02:01:16 pm »
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Okay, so I reworked the format/wording of the expansion, and also ended up making every Gunpowder cost card cost 1 less Coin, except for General, which now costs 2 Gunpowder to buy. It makes the whole set a lot more affordable and usable, plus it wraps a minor loose end in that I wanted a card that cost 2 Gunpowder, and now I have that in this expansion.

So now Bomb is only 1 Gunpowder, making it super cheap. And Soldier is only 1 Gunpowder and 1 Coin, also super cheap. The most expensive Gunpowder cost card is Cannon, but i think it is fair to equate it to a 6 cost card.

Never say never, but I think Dominion Gunpowder is finally a done deal as far as its design goes. Much much gratitude from everybody who put in their two cents, especially KingZog and Silverspawn. I'm very happy with where this expansion ended up.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 02:02:20 pm by ErrinF »
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2014, 02:10:17 pm »
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Yes, never say never... lol

I realized I had one small design flaw with the cheapening of the Gunpowder cost cards... Musketeers would be immune to Attacks that trash cards from 3 to 6 coin cost. Only Soldier is supposed to be immune to that.

But the fix was rather easy. Instead of a Gunpowder symbol on a card being ignored after it leaves the Supply, that symbol now counts as +1 Coin to the card's cost for cards that refer to such. Done and done. : )
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2014, 02:23:42 pm »
+1

if only it were so easy  ::)
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2014, 02:46:53 pm »
0

Oops... I forgot to address one thing.

Yes, Sulfur Pit does use immediate Buys like Black Market and therefore allows you to play your Treasure cards mid-Action. It does indeed open that 'Pandora's Box'. There's something strange in that pit... lol

And while I'm at it, I might as well address again that the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers will all remain 'samey' because they are meant to make war with each other (and other cards) that way. They are the 3 Action-Attack-Reaction cards that make up the infantry of the Gunpowder 'army'. I also like that all three are essentially slight reworkings of the same concept, but in degrees so that they have a ranking of sorts among them. Given the range of the Randomizer cards, you'd most likely end up with only 1 of these 3 cards in the Supply if any of them show up at all. So that sameness isnt going to be a huge factor in the end, I feel. I think that if an Attack-Reaction card shows up in the Supply, it is mainly going to be used against itself if it is the only Attack-Reaction card in the Supply, and is definitely going to be used against itself if it is the only Attack in the Supply. When it comes down to it, Dominion as is lacks in cards that prevent attacks (it really only has Moat and Lighthouse to prevent an attack), yet has a plethora of attacks. I also felt that if I was going to make an expansion that was mainly about destructive Knight type attacks, it would need cards in it that could prevent such attacks. In this case, more than one. So the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers will remain as is because that is their role in this particular expansion. I'm sure others have delved into Attack-Reaction cards, but this is how I chose to go about it for Dominion Gunpowder. I'm pretty set on that, particularly now that these cards are much more affordable and the Gunpowder buying/cost dynamic has been worked out a lot better.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 02:49:58 pm by ErrinF »
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2014, 03:01:02 pm »
+1

Have you played many games with these cards yet?
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2014, 03:19:29 pm »
0

Yes, if only so easy. lol

I just made another minor change. Artillery is +1 Coin instead of +2 Coin. This makes it more akin to Grenadier and less to Cannon. Cannon is the only Gunpowder cost card now that is +2 Coin. All of the Attack cards in Dominion Gunpowder add Coin to represent the spoils of war (not unlike Militia). Note that Sulfur Pit is NOT an Attack card because it hands out it's Curses like Ill Gotten Gains... a Buy is made to invoke the Curse, not an Attack.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 03:31:39 pm by ErrinF »
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2014, 03:28:13 pm »
0

Have you played many games with these cards yet?

No, I only have the virtual cards at Goko. When I purchase Dominion in the near future, I'll get the base set and Alchemy first (as well as Cornucopia, my favorite set) and then I can playtest it. As it were, this expansion is still in the design phase, though that phases seems about done. Emphasis on the word 'seems'.

And I'd really like to play you at Goko and learn the game more in depth from your perspective if you have the chance some time, KingZog3. I'm Hangar18 at Dominion Online. I'd let you decide if you wanted to play pro, casual, or unrated. I'm leaning towards unrated or casual instead of pro, just so I wouldnt effect your high pro score if I somehow got lucky. My pro score is unimportant compared to yours cuz I'll never be up there in those high of ranks, so I wouldnt want to negatively effect your rating if I somehow got lucky in a game, which happens to the best of players. Anyway, just hit me up over there if you see me and feel like playing. And thanks again for helping me improve this expansion a million percent. lol
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2014, 03:37:47 pm »
+1

Have you played many games with these cards yet?

No, I only have the virtual cards at Goko. When I purchase Dominion in the near future, I'll get the base set and Alchemy first (as well as Cornucopia, my favorite set) and then I can playtest it. As it were, this expansion is still in the design phase, though that phases seems about done. Emphasis on the word 'seems'.

And I'd really like to play you at Goko and learn the game more in depth from your perspective if you have the chance some time, KingZog3. I'm Hangar18 at Dominion Online. I'd let you decide if you wanted to play pro, casual, or unrated. I'm leaning towards unrated or casual instead of pro, just so I wouldnt effect your high pro score if I somehow got lucky. My pro score is unimportant compared to yours cuz I'll never be up there in those high of ranks, so I wouldnt want to negatively effect your rating if I somehow got lucky in a game, which happens to the best of players. Anyway, just hit me up over there if you see me and feel like playing. And thanks again for helping me improve this expansion a million percent. lol

I'm on now. Meet me in Outpost
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theory

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2014, 03:56:42 pm »
+4

I'm leaning towards unrated or casual instead of pro, just so I wouldnt effect your high pro score if I somehow got lucky. My pro score is unimportant compared to yours cuz I'll never be up there in those high of ranks, so I wouldnt want to negatively effect your rating if I somehow got lucky in a game, which happens to the best of players.

A win is a win!  If you beat someone, you deserve those points! :) 
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2014, 03:58:02 pm »
0

Quote
A win is a win!  If you beat someone, you deserve those points! :)

uh, ew, i couldn't disagree more
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2014, 04:01:33 pm »
0

That pesky General...

I ended up changing his Cost from 2 Gunpowder to $2 + 1 Gunpowder. He has enough conditions placed on him besides needing a 2 Gunpowder buy to purchase. This keeps him the same equivolent cost to Vineyard. Also, this now makes him vulnerable to Attacks that trash cards costing from 3 to 6 Coin cost, which I think is better suited. It also creates a new dynamic between the General and the Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier cards when it comes to preventing attacks to protect any General in hand.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2014, 04:04:01 pm »
0

Ok, just seeing that so I will head over to Outpost now. I was reworking this expansion. lol

And I agree with Silverspawn... a win is a win, but the rating system at Goko has some issues to resolve still, and a high level player gets punished too much for an unlucky loss to a low level player they were just trying to be cool and play with.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2014, 04:06:27 pm »
0

Ok, just seeing that so I will head over to Outpost now. I was reworking this expansion. lol

And I agree with Silverspawn... a win is a win, but the rating system at Goko has some issues to resolve still, and a high level player gets punished too much for an unlucky loss to a low level player they were just trying to be cool and play with.

Sorry, I went to play another game while I waited. It's up again.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2014, 05:23:48 pm »
0

I just made some minor changes to the layout/presentation of Dominion Gunpowder so it can be a little more universal for players outside of this site. It is still quite easy to read for those used to a certain format here.

Dominion Gunpowder is done for now. Enjoy!

Thanks again to everybody here for their two cents. : )
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2014, 09:31:11 pm »
0

One other minor thing. The rules for gunpowder seem a bit convoluted. Why not have it be trashed when played, instead of having it produce the gunpowder without being trashed, but then only trashed if the person buys a card with gunpowder in the cost? If you aren't going to buy a gunpowder cost card, then you just shouldn't play the gunpowder anyway. Spoils returns to the pile when played; not only if the $3 is spent. The only time that this would be different is with Bank, Horn of Plenty, Herbalist, or Mandarin. If you really think that the ability to combo with those specific 4 cards is worth the wording, then fine... But it just seems simpler (and more thematic) to have gunpowder work just like spoils... +1 gunpowder, and return this to the supply.

Also, your wording allows something that may be not what you want... Play gunpowder, (or 2 or 3), buy Mandarin (returning Gunpowders to deck), then buy a couple Bombs or Soldiers. You can get gunpowder-cost cards without losing the gunpowder!

Also, with current rules, if I play 2 gunpowder cards, and buy 1 soldier, do I just lose 1 gunpowder, or both? If you want to keep it functioning the way it is, you probably still want to clean up the rule wording: "any time you spend a gunpowder, return a gunpowder card from play to the supply."
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 09:59:19 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2014, 10:21:51 pm »
0

I like the idea of Gunpowder doing something other than generating "money" to spend. A treasure that attacks when played?
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2014, 10:37:55 pm »
+1

I see that there is already quite a bit of discussion so far.  Here are my initial impressions as I read the OP, before having read any of the discussion.

- It isn't really necessary to specify that you replace Alchemy cards.  People who are inclined to play with variants will know how to proxy cards. :)

- No real need to clarify how "Attack-Reaction" type would work.  There isn't an official example, but the rules framework is already there.  Only need to specify if there are any special rules, which there aren't, right?

Gunpowder - So it works the same way as Potion, except that they are one-shot if used.  You could actually make them fully one-shot to greatly simplify the rules without changing the effect much at all.  The only time it really matters* that I can think of is in combination with Venture.  Otherwise, players can simply choose not to play it.  Therefore I would recommend simplifying the rules.  It's not worth all the extra complexity to address one scenario.

* There is another edge case where it can matter -- if you are Possessed, you could be forced to play and trash your Gunpowder even though the possessor doesn't buy a Gunpowder-cost card.  This is an edge case because the trashed Gunpowder will return to your deck; it only matters in rare reshuffle circumstances.

It is odd that the Gunpowder symbol counts as an extra coin symbol out of the supply.  Acceptable, but odd.  From everything else, I'd expect it to work like Potion instead.  You should clarify how this interacts with cost reduction.  Will Bridge "see" it as a coin and be able to reduce it, or will a card costing 1 Gunpowder always treated as a "$1" card at minimum?

It is interesting to have a Potion alternative that is cheaper but also more limited due to self-trashing.  This can be both a blessing -- no more junk treasure sticking around in your deck in the late game -- and a curse -- much harder to get multiples of Gunpowder-costing cards (which I will call GP cards from now on).  Note that the difficulty of getting GP cards, even more than Potion cards, suggests that they should be more powerful than Potion cards, or cards where you really want one copy but don't need more than that.  Yeah GP costs only $2 each, but that self-trashing is a huge roadblock for viability.

Bomb - This is incredibly weak.  Trashing is good, but it's not worth the investment of getting GP just to trash a single card with Bomb.

Soldier - Also very weak.  The action and attack is much weaker than Militia but the card is more expensive when you factor in the opportunity cost of getting GP at all.  The reaction gives it a small bonus, but it is extremely small.  You don't want to trash a card that you spent so much effort to obtain!

Musketeer - This is alright, I think.  Still rather weak, but I could see myself buying it in some niche circumstances.  The reaction is still pretty terrible because it means I don't get to play that card on my turn.  As for the attack... discarding 1 card doesn't actually hurt that much, and it'll usually be a Copper or Estate anyway.  This hurts more in thinned decks, when you can force players to trash more expensive cards.  But this still isn't that great.  Unlike Rogue or Knights, the opponent has more control over what gets trashed.  That said, it could sometimes be useful.

Grenadier - This, Musketeer and Soldier are all clearly just variations of each other.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but this amount of similarity is uninteresting within a small set.

The action on Grenadier is mostly weaker than Musketeer because the latter has an additional (though mild) discard attack.  Grenadier is also mostly weaker than Rogue/Knights, which can look through two cards instead of just one.  By only looking at one, it becomes much swingier as it misses more often, but it can sometimes hit something important, where a Knight may have given the victim a choice to trash something lesser.  Overall, I find this swinginess undesirable in an already luck-driven attack.

The reaction on Grenadier is much more interesting than the one for Soldier and Musketeer.  It's still a relatively weak reaction, but top-decking itself means that the protection can extend to more turns.  That's pretty neat when facing an opponent who is trying to play one strong attack every turn -- something that is not uncommon.  This feature is also a nice fit with the GP cost.  One Grenadier may be all you need to keep you consistently defended.

For testing, I would probably use this reaction to replace Musketeer's and then get rid of this and Soldier from the set.

Artillery - OK, this is getting kind of ridiculous.  These are all just variations of the same card.

Cannon - Again, too much similarity.  Why is the discard attack so complicated?  It ends up being a slightly milder version of "discard down to 3 cards".  The main difference is that an opponent who has more than 6 cards can end with 5+ cards in hand.  (Note that a player with just 6 cards will discard 2, then discard another 1 and end at 3 anyway.)

This seems to be the last of the GP-cost cards.  They are all far too similar, making it not worthwhile to have an entirely separate currency for them.

Reserves - It's alright, but is probably weak enough to cost $2.

Garrison - I think this is alright as is.  I'd try testing this at $2 as well.

Factory - I'd also test this at $2.  Point of comparison -- Candlestick Maker.

Army - This is OK, maybe.  It might actually be too powerful for $6.  Army can be a Laboratory with bonus sifting, not to mention some extra options to take instead of the card draw.  It feels overly complex without bringing anything new to the table though.

Sulfur Pit - This card has quite a few problems... First, it has you "buy" things as part of its action.  What if you don't have any coin available?  What if this board doesn't even have virtual coin cards?  In the latter case, Sulfur Pit becomes completely useless, unless you make it like Black Market -- in which case you need to say so.

Second, what if there is no GP-cost card on the board?  That takes away 2/3 functions of the card.

Third, the Curse attack scales weirdly.  In a 2 player game, this is mediocre -- you pay $1 to give your opponent a Curse.  But what about in a 4 player game?  Can I spend $1 just to Curse the player to my left, leaving the others alone?  That would not be cool and gets a bit political.  But if not, that means I need to spend $3 to curse the other players.  That's really expensive to pay for every play of the card.

General - Oh, another GP card.  The cost makes these hard to buy, which already weakens them as a strategy.  I'm not going to buy lots of attacks for General when it's so difficult to stock up on them!  Depending on the board, there might not even be any attack cards available.

There is a second possibility for when you have no attack cards though.  That makes the design feel a bit clumsy.  This is also difficult to take advantage of.  If I'm interpreting it correctly, you are supposed to pick one card and count the copies in your deck.  This would cap the value at 6VP (Rats notwithstanding) but requires nearly piledriving the action card -- highly unlikely to happen.  An alternative interpretation is that this will count each set of 3 identically-named action cards.  So if I have 3 Villages and 3 Smithies, General will still be worth 4VP.  That might actually be interesting.

The difficulty of buying GP still holds it back though.  There is also some conceptual overlap with Vineyard, but I don't know how similar they would feel without testing it.





I've got to go now, but I'll read through the discussion later.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2014, 11:46:46 pm »
+1

Gunpowder - So it works the same way as Potion, except that they are one-shot if used.  You could actually make them fully one-shot to greatly simplify the rules without changing the effect much at all.  The only time it really matters* that I can think of is in combination with Venture.  Otherwise, players can simply choose not to play it.  Therefore I would recommend simplifying the rules.  It's not worth all the extra complexity to address one scenario.

* There is another edge case where it can matter -- if you are Possessed, you could be forced to play and trash your Gunpowder even though the possessor doesn't buy a Gunpowder-cost card.  This is an edge case because the trashed Gunpowder will return to your deck; it only matters in rare reshuffle circumstances.

Oops, I missed Venture and Possession. You missed Bank, Horn of Plenty, Herbalist, and Mandarin. See my last post.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2014, 05:04:24 pm »
0

OK, went through comments.  I reply to fewer of them in the end because I was getting tired.  These are mostly responses to you, Errin, though I comment on some others' thoughts a few times as well.  I mostly agree with them.  One difference is that I think Army is actually pretty strong whereas the others still seem to think it is on the weaker side.  Maybe it's been updated since their comments.

I'll start with something positive -- I like your enthusiasm. :)

You may want to skip the rest though, if only because it's long and I end up repeating a lot of what's already been covered.  OTOH, if the others haven't convinced you already, perhaps my approach and examples will better clarify to you where your concepts miss their mark.  It's worth noting that my comments are all on your updated cards, and that I never saw the ones before.  Based on the comments, I get the idea that you've tried to strenthen and change cards based on the feedback, but I don't think you've done enough yet.

Anyway, don't let these criticism discourage you.  As silverspawn joked, it's a good thing that you've gotten as much response as you have.

Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way to other player's decks. The Gunpowder cards are trashed after use to limit how quickly a deck can be filled with cards that have Gunpowder in the cost. I consider Bomb to be incredibly useful because the only other trashing card that can trash itself after use is Hermit (which also requires special circumstances to trash itself). Otherwise, you get stuck with a trashing card like Chapel after it does its work. Use a few Bombs and your deck will clear up quickly.

Besides limiting the destructive power of the Gunpowder cost cards by making the Gunpowder trash itself after use, I wanted Gunpowder to not just be a straight up copy of Potion. What other Treasures trash themselves after use? Counterfeit may trash other treasures, but it doesnt trash itself. Gunpowder is cheaper than a Potion card, trashes itself after use, and the Gunpowder cost in a card vanishes after it leaves the Supply, making it like any other card (unlike the special rules for Potion cost cards). I also think that back in medieval/renaissance times, gunpowder use was very crude and limited, so it should be a task to use Gunpowder in Dominion as well. The Sulfur Pit card sort of remedies that if somebody wants to more easily build up a deck with Gunpowder cost cards. Every card in this expansion is meant to be different than Kingdom cards already in the game. I'm keeping the Gunpowder card as is because that's how it is meant to work, similar to Potion but not identical.

And you are quite mistaken that my wording for Cannon is the same as 'discard down to 3 cards'. Suppose Cannon and Soothsayer (or Governor or Council Room ) are in the Supply. Suppose there are a few players. Soothsayers/Governors get played and player's hands get up to 6 or 7 cards. Then a Cannon card gets played. With my wording, only two cards get hit (just like a Knight would hit two cards, or a Rogue, etc). With your wording, too many cards get discarded and possibly trashed. I picked that wording specifically to avoid such a situation. Its called reducing the 'swinginess' of the game. The scenario I put forth Soothsayers/Governors totally happens enough in gameplay and does indeed warrant precise wording. I would rather be thorough and specific. Its not like my wording is at all that confusing or complicated. Thanks for the feedback, but I'll most likely be keeping this variant expansion as is. Its meant to be limited in a certain way, which includes certain detailed word use so as to avoid too much destructive power when applied to certain situations that may pop up in any given Dominion game.

Potion already limits how quickly cards can be added to the deck, in that you can only ever buy one Potion-cost card per Potion in you deck per shuffle (edge case: Counterfeit).  Gun Powder, as a self-trashing treasure, limits it far more, to the extent that getting more than a single GP-cost card is just not a good idea, unless the GP-cost cards themselves are extremely powerful. 

Bomb is very weak.  You can only get rid of one card, but the opportunity cost is huge.  You have to give up a buy to get GP itself, then wait a shuffle, then another buy to get Bomb, then wait another shuffle before removing ONE card from your deck.  This is far too slow for far too little impact.  It's better to have a dead Chapel in your deck than those 9 remaining starting junk cards that you couldn't get rid of with Bomb.  It looks like other commenters have brought up Island, which is a great comparison.  Bomb is much harder to get than Island, but Island is worth 2VP (plus a potential extra VP if you set aside an Estate, compared to trashing an Estate with Bomb).

The concept is OK, but the execution is problematic in that your GP-cost cards do not have enough "destructive power" as to require limiting.  The Potion-cost cards are more powerful and less limited.  And it's fine to want to make cards unlike existing cards, but many similarities have already been noted.  Moreover, you should also be considering how similar your cards are to each other.

The wording for Cannon is practically the same as "discard down to 3 cards".  It's not identical, but the cases where it matters are uncommon.  It's also not reducing swinginess.  The cards that allow opponents to have more than 5 cards in hand during YOUR turn are cards that they don't play themselves -- Governor, Soothsayer, Council Room.  Rather than reducing swinginess, your Cannon wording merely nullifies an interesting card combo.

Army is Lab+ so fine at $6. I would put a little buff on it because I think it's weak for a $6 card, but it clearly has to be because it's better than lab. Not sure what the buff could be because it has all the Pawn options. Have you tested it? Maybe it's fine. I'd buy it over Adventurer.

Not sure if you are underestimating the versatility of Army, or if I'm overestimating it, or if it's been updated since you made that comment.  IMO, the one currently in the OP is very strong.

(By the way, am I the only person who makes decks that are Golem with only ONE type of Action card in the deck? That way I can always rely on the same action. Works great with Scheme and a few other Kingdom cards. Everybody else seems to have Golem be incidental, but if I use Golem, I revolve my whole deck around it).

Golem shouldn't be incidental.  None of the Potion cards should be, really.  Potion is such an investment that, if you go for it, you should have a plan for it.  The only exception really is Transmute, which I might pick up incidentally if I already grabbed Potion for something else.

Another thing about these 3 cards... they are meant to be quite destructive (as well as profitable) if enough of them are used with enough actions in a turn. In the case of this expansion

That's fine, but there are two problems.  First, it's far too difficult to pick up more than one of any of these because your GP disappears after use.  Second, it will be very difficult to play them in large numbers when they are all terminal... and also relatively weak compared to cards like Knights.  Given that they are so difficult to get, you could make them non-terminal to at least solve the second issue.

Reserves/Garrison/Factory... Basically the same concept

It's bad if you have three cards in a single set which are "basically the same concept."  Small sets especially should strive for variety.

Garrison is strictly worse than Hamlet. That's the main problem with your expansion - cards are very weak. Unless I'm missing some crazy interaction, straight Big Money wins with any gunpowder based deck.

Garrison is not strictly worse because it can provide +3 actions, which Hamlet cannot.  However, it may have been updated since you made this comment.

In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.

I would disagree that militaries are homogenous.  There is a difference between light infantry, heavy infantry, calvary, artillery, etc. and you can see this in RTS games, among others.  Also, even though there are official Dominion cards that are very similar, they are not all grouped up in the same set.  Sure, all the various village cards are minor variations of each other, but there are only a couple in each set.

Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.

The dead Potion hurts, but it would be worse if I have to buy a new one for every Potion card I want to get.  If I managed to win the Curse split thanks to Familiar, I don't mind the Potion in my deck.  In a game with both Potion and Gunpowder, Potion is probably better because almost all of the Potion cards are stronger than almost all of the Gunpowder cards (though it would depend on the rest of the board in the end).  Sure GP is cheap to buy, but the opportunity cost is still there.  Every GP I buy is a Silver or engine component that I don't buy.

Bomb... Interesting this is the main point of contention, as Bomb was the first card I thought of that then lead to the whole gunpowder/warfare concept behind this expansion. All I wanted to do was make a card that can trash any card then goes away itself. I dont like being stuck with Chapel after it has made itself useful by clearing the deck, and other such cards that Trash. Let's compare Bomb to other cards that trash.

You buy a Bomb, I buy a Chapel.  It takes you an extra shuffle before you even get to play the Bomb, after which you remove one junk card from your deck.  You still have 9 starting junk remaining.  Meanwhile, I have trashed all of my starting cards with Chapel.  Sure, I still have the Chapel, but you have 8 more junk cards than I do.

You go on to discuss how powerful trashing is, and you are correct.  But you are vastly overestimating the power of a one-shot one-card terminal trasher.  You even address the comparisons to Island, but somehow don't see the difference.  Island you can buy outright while Bomb takes an extra shuffle and Buy to obtain because of its cost.  Island isn't even that strong.  It's decent, but it's very, very rare when Islands alone are effective for major deck trimming.  Bomb is even slower.

Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?

Urchin is far easier to get, and it's a cantrip to boot.  Minion is a more powerful attack because 4 average cards is worse than best of 3.  And that's not considering the fact that we are talking about one single card versus TWO Soldiers, each of which are expensive.  You are underestimating the opportunity cost of investing in Potion/Gunpowder.  You are also stressing the power of these cards "in numbers", but their cost means that you won't be able to muster a large force.  Why should I take all the effort of getting Soldiers when I can get Knights instead?  And yes, even if Soldier is the only reaction, it's still pretty weak.

Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.

By the time you get two Grenadiers, I will probably have 5 Knights.  Knights can look at more cards than Grenadier, so it is more likely to successfully trash a Grenadier than the other way around.  Grenadier can defend against ONE Knight attack, but that also prevents you from attacking with it that turn, so it evens out.  And then you aren't able to defend against my second Knight.  If my Knight gets trashed, it's not too tough to buy another.  GP cost makes it much more difficult to replace a Grenadier.

Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol

Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.

If I'm choosing between a Knight and Artillery, I might opt for Artillery.  It's not bad.  But factoring in the cost of the cards, it's not so simple anymore.  And even if I do go for Artillery, I'm not going to go for a second one because the opportunity cost of buying multiple GPs is THAT high.

If my opponent wants to pursue Cannons and spend 3 extra buys on Gunpwoder, I'd be happy to let him.  I'll have most of the Provinces by the time he is able to attack me in earnest.  And note that Province itself is a safe discard against all of these trashing attacks.

ill never understand how the amount of response in forums works

Pretty random for me... if I'm in the mood to critique, I will do it.  :P

Gunpowder - So it works the same way as Potion, except that they are one-shot if used.  You could actually make them fully one-shot to greatly simplify the rules without changing the effect much at all.  The only time it really matters* that I can think of is in combination with Venture.  Otherwise, players can simply choose not to play it.  Therefore I would recommend simplifying the rules.  It's not worth all the extra complexity to address one scenario.

* There is another edge case where it can matter -- if you are Possessed, you could be forced to play and trash your Gunpowder even though the possessor doesn't buy a Gunpowder-cost card.  This is an edge case because the trashed Gunpowder will return to your deck; it only matters in rare reshuffle circumstances.

Oops, I missed Venture and Possession. You missed Bank, Horn of Plenty, Herbalist, and Mandarin. See my last post.

Ooh.  Well, you win this round. ;)

I believe all of these interactions can be preserved by having Gunpowder trash itself when discarded from play.  Best of both worlds.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2014, 06:20:22 pm »
+4

I played a couple of fun games with Errin the other day. Making cards and balancing them is very much linked to how you play Dominion. While I built much more, Errin greened early in nearly every game. We had 2 Knights games I think, maybe Errin remembers better, and he said that Knights means you always go for them. I said that's not true, there are cases where you can't or shouldn't go for the. Our games were not examples of those though. Also before I had a chance to ask him (because I had to run) was that he had said he has a basic set strategy on how to play. Errin also pointe out (This is rude talking about you in the third person on your own thread, but I started like this, so I'll end the post like this) that the way I was talking about the cards implied that their power was relative to the set-up. My feeling is these cards are made with this in mind, that trashing is always good, that trashing attacks are always strong and so on. This is not the case. The first example it Fortress, which stops trashing attacks in their tracks. Trashing is not good in Gardens games, or with Apothecary. etc...
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2014, 11:32:27 am »
+2

You're reading WAY too much into those few games of Dominion there, KingZog. And all I did was candidly discuss certain ideas about Dominion strategy with you. I'm sorry you assumed I was married to any of them. I was not, and the majority of what you posted in that last reply was quite mistaken about me. I thought those games were between us, and didn't realize you had an agenda to come back here and 'report' on me negatively as a way to further talk down this expansion of mine.

None of our gameplay the other day has anything to do with Dominion Gunpowder. Thanks for the games anyway, but I would prefer this forum be about the variant expansion I created and not about me. If this expansion still isn't for you, than so be it. It is made for others then and not you. I'm just here to post/share an unofficial variant expansion for Dominion. Some people are going to like it and play it. Some people are not. If you are one of the people that are not, duly noted. Not much more to discuss about it then. Thanks again for your input during the development phase of my variant expansion. It's done now.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 11:43:16 am by ErrinF »
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2014, 11:59:13 am »
+4

You're reading WAY too much into those few games of Dominion there, KingZog. And all I did was candidly discuss certain ideas about Dominion strategy with you. I'm sorry you assumed I was married to any of them. I was not, and the majority of what you posted in that last reply was quite mistaken about me. I thought those games were between us, and didn't realize you had an agenda to come back here and 'report' on me negatively as a way to further talk down this expansion of mine.

None of our gameplay the other day has anything to do with Dominion Gunpowder. Thanks for the games anyway, but I would prefer this forum be about the variant expansion I created and not about me. If this expansion still isn't for you, than so be it. It is made for others then and not you. I'm just here to post/share an unofficial variant expansion for Dominion. Some people are going to like it and play it. Some people are not. If you are one of the people that are not, duly noted. Not much more to discuss about it then. Thanks again for your input during the development phase of my variant expansion. It's done now.

I didn't have an agenda. I was simply saying that cards made are linked to how people play the game. You obviously think blocking attacks is strong, because you keep insisting that it is. I didn't mean to report negatively about your cards and of course anyone is free to enjoy them if they want to. But you can't expect me to not talk about the games we played and what we said. How good a player is at Dominion is very much linked to the strength of the cards they make because the power levels of cards can be skewed to match what they think is strong or not. It has nothing to do with how fun you find the cards, or how you enjoy making them. And don't think I was personally trying to insult you. You were polite, and carried good conversation (unlike some people on goko). And like I said, I didn't get to ask you much about what you said because I had to run. I should have phrased it more like a question, and that's my bad. I wanted to know what you meant when you said you sort of have a set strategy. The rest was just a continuation of the thought without waiting for a reply.

I really don't want to start another negative argument (as I just stopped posting in another thread because things got pretty heated). Sorry, and I didn't mean any personal insult.
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2014, 12:21:50 pm »
0

The wording for the Gunpowder card is that way for exactly the reason mentioned... to only have Gunpowder trashed for buying a Gunpowder cost card. I did not want the card to automatically trash itself; It has to essentially be 'converted' into a Gunpowder cost card. The various fringe examples listed are why I used the wording I did.

And if you don't get why Gunpowder cost cards have their Gunpowder symbol turned to +1 Coin value of the card once they leave the Supply, you are missing a major/core mechanic of this expansion: The trashing of other player's cards that are valued from 3 to 6 Coin. If I didn't change the Gunpowder symbol after it left the Supply, then the Gunpowder cost cards would be immune to that mechanic, including amongst themselves! Musketeers couldnt trash Musketeers, Cannons couldnt trash Cannons, etc. And I changed it to +1 Coin value after leaving the Supply because that also best fits the core mechanic of 'warfare' in this expansion... Soldiers cannot be trashed by such attacks (unless they trash themselves in reaction to prevent such an attack), whereas Musketeers and Generals can....without the +1 coin cost value, Musketeers and Generals would be immune to such attacks (which I originally thought was good for the Generals, but changed it so that they should be vulnerable too. Also, the Gunpowder symbol turning into +1 Coin value allowed me to keep the Gunpowder cost cards affordable. I originally priced them to fit the 3 to 6 Coin value scheme, but that made them too expensive. When I lowered all of their costs by 1 coin and changed the Gunpowder symbol to +1 Coin after leaving the Supply, I was able to best balance out affordability and the core mechanic of trashing other players 3 to 6 coin cost cards.

As for Bomb, yes, it is not all that powerful as I originally thought, but now it is super cheap and can still be useful here and there.

I don't feel Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are all that 'samey'. Sure, they are in essence +1 action, +1 card cards that sift through your deck, but to different results. The +1 Card makes Reserves more like reserves... you can essentially draw two cards and pick the better of the two... you just have to pick them one at a time. The +2 Actions make Garrison more like a garrison... ready to act in times of need. The +1 Buy +1 Coin makes Factory more like a factory... it can help you quickly get cheap goods in numerous supply. All three cards are meant to augment the 'army' put forth in this expansion, and they do just that. I am very happy with how they ended up, because now they work better and fit their theme much, much better.

Lastly, let me explain something about Dominion Gunpowder.... Cornucopia is my favorite expansion because of the Tournament card. And not just because of the Prizes. Its because the Tournament represents a game within the game. I feel Masquerade is somewhat similar, as is Rebuild or Pirate Ship or Knights or Black Market if you look at them a certain way. They kind of create their own little side game as the main game of Dominion goes along. Quite a few Dominion cards are like that. These cards in Dominion Gunpowder also create their own side game... the game of war. That 'game' is best represented by the 3 Attack/Reaction cards, but most all the Dominion cards play into it, such as General and Army. Sulfur Pit is its own little side game too... if it gets hit by the 'trash 3 to 6 coin cast cards' mechanic, the results are explosive!

When I create a game (in this case a free variant expansion), I like to be very thematic and cohesive with it's mechanics. It is a hobby of mine to make free RPGs (and similar games) to post online for people to play if they so wish. This is the first time I've made a free variant expansion for a popular game such as Dominion. And probably the last... I've had a great time here and appreciate the feedback/interest, but Dominion Gunpowder is my only idea for a Dominion expansion. I didn't even plan on making it... I just thought one day if I made a card or two for Dominion, what would I make? I realized I wanted a card that trashed itself after trashing another card, then I realized one of the most interesting cards to me was Potion and that I wanted to make a card like it. So when I thought of a bomb being the concept for the trashing card, I realized the Potion type card I wanted to make was gunpowder, as I've always found it interesting how they started using crude artillery and simple cannons early on in the Medieval time period that Dominion is based in. The rest just worked itself out, and I am very happy with how this all ended up. Thanks again for everybody's two cents worth. Your feedback was quite helpful. : )
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2014, 12:31:12 pm »
0

Okay, so Dominion Gunpowder is a finished product! I've converted it into a simple one page pdf that is now attached to this forum topic. I also have it available for reading/downloading at the following link:

http://issuu.com/rpggamebooklets/docs/dominion_gunpowder/0

I also posted it to the free RPG/Game online community I am part of:

http://www.1km1kt.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5992

Last but not least, I'll create a Twitter account to promote Dominion Gunpowder as well as link to the website where people can read/download the one page pdf I made for it. That way I can get this free Dominion expansion variant out there and into the hands of people who might want to play it. Thanks again for everybody's help here. Much appreciated. : )

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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2014, 12:53:41 pm »
+1

There's no issue between us, KZ. You're a great guy and a great Dominion player. I've improved 300 to 400 points in pro rating in one day since playing you. Sorry you thought I was THAT inexperienced just because I was running a bunch of things by you.

And no, you had no deliberate agenda and are not out to get me or Dominion Gunpowder, but being that your view is what it is about my playing and my expansion, that is what it ended up being. My point is I just thought it was a game or two between us, and not something you were going to report back here about. Not that it really matters, but I wanted this to be a forum about Dominion Gunpowder, not about me. This thread you've followed since we played at Goko seems a tad too personal, and yes, rude, to me. But no hard feelings... you're not the first cool-yet-very-opinionated gamer I've met. All good.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go set up the Twitter account for Dominion Gunpowder so I can get it out there to people who might actually want to play it. Thanks again to KingZog3, Silverspawn, and the other Dominion fans here for their extremely useful constructive criticism during the creation period of Dominion Gunpowder. Have fun out there, and see you at Goko! : )
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 12:54:43 pm by ErrinF »
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2014, 01:33:38 pm »
0

And the Twitter page for Dominion Gunpowder is now up:

https://twitter.com/DominionGnpowdr

I'll use the account to get the expansion out there and to find Dominion players on Twitter who might be interested in giving it a try. If anybody here has their own Dominion variant expansion, I recommend Twitter as an excellent way for promoting it. All my tweets will basically be links to the page where the Dominion Gunpowder pdf is available for reading/downloading, and the link is also provided on my Twitter page. I of course made sure to include wording in the pdf file and on its download page that all things Dominion are intellectual property of Donald X. Vaccarino and his publisher for Dominion, Rio Grande Games.

My work is done for now. True, it was a bit halfbaked when originally presented here, but it was crafted since then to become much more cohesive and playable. Such is the way of game design. In the end, it is the final result and what you do with it that matters. I know how to get my game out there and have used Twitter effectively to promote other free games of mine. We'll see how Dominion Gunpowder does when it is put out there on the web to freely and easily use. Perhaps now the no frills one page layout and quick play Alchemy replacement approach I chose makes more sense to those who weren't quite clear as to what I was aiming for by doing such. To me, accessibility and playability matter. While I can make (and have made) more polished, produced games with artwork, multiple pages, and such, I have gotten into the design of one page RPGs (often solo games rather than traditional group roleplaying) for their simplicity and ease. In this case, I decided to make a one page Dominion expansion. Should somebody want to make a print n play version of Dominion Gunpowder with it's own cards, that's on them... I'm sure they'll contact me via Twitter if so, and if they do, I'll say go for it. Until then (or if that never happens), I'm more than happy with Dominion Gunpowder as is. : )
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 01:40:23 pm by ErrinF »
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2014, 03:53:27 pm »
0

There was one thematic loose end I wanted to tie up on Dominion Gunpowder...

The words Musketeer and Grenadier are a little anachronistic for the Medieval time period Dominion is based in, but there were crude predecessors to the musketeers and the grenadiers. The Musketeer card and the Grenadier card represent Medieval equivalents of the musketeers and grenadiers. As it were, China and the Ottoman Empire did have muskets and 'musketeers' in the 14th and 15th Century. Grenades were also being used in China going back to the Ming Dynasty (which was 14th/15th Century), most notably tossed over the Great Wall against enemies.

The word Factory could be considered a little anachronistic too, but there were Medieval versions of the factory back then, most notably the mill (which predates Medieval times but existed during them as well).

So, there may not have been many Musketeers, Grenadiers, and Factories in Medieval times, but neither were there any Golems, Familiars, or Scrying Pools. The musketeers, grenadiers, and factories in Dominion Gunpowder represent re-imagined Medieval versions thereof.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:59:31 pm by ErrinF »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2014, 07:49:26 pm »
+5

While it is commendable that you updated cards based on feedback, you still don't seem to be absorbing it all.  I'll refrain from repeating all that was said before, but I will try to get through to you on just one card -- Bomb.

As for Bomb, yes, it is not all that powerful as I originally thought, but now it is super cheap and can still be useful here and there.

You are greatly underestimating the cost of Bomb.  It costs one Gunpowder, but that single GP requires a buy and a shuffle before you can use it.  This is huge, huge opportunity cost.  For the amount of trashing that Bomb provides, it is simply not worth it.  Bomb is expensive, not cheap, simply because of the cost of buying that GP and waiting for your deck to cycle to it.

If you want to make it at least somewhat viable, you either need to make the self-trashing optional (in which case it is about the same level as Transmute) or you need to let it trash more.  This latter option would at least be thematic.  If the single Bomb could trash any number of cards from your hand, THEN it would have enough impact that it may be worthwhile.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2014, 07:53:29 pm »
+20

Man, eHalcyon, can't you read? This expansion is done. It's a wrap! I for one am just thrilled that ErrinF chose to share it with us before it "went live", so to speak. This behind-the-scenes look was very exciting!
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ErrinF

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2014, 12:54:02 pm »
0

Wow, still obsessing with the Bomb. All it is is a cheap version of Island that helps create a small, efficient deck. All it takes is one buy and 4 coin to get 2 Gunpowder, then one buy and 2 gunpowder to get 2 Bombs. So it takes a few shuffles to get going. Same with Potion and potion cost cards. Silly to act like it is some great waste of time when it isn't.

The Gunpowder used to buy Bomb is trashed. The Bomb is trashed. Another card is trashed by the Bomb. You're not absorbing the card's function and overall purpose. Try understanding the entire expansion with a little more depth, because at this point I feel you're the one that just isn't getting it, that isn't absorbing it. The Bomb concept is a card that trashes another card then trashes itself. Everything else is secondary but has been balanced out to fit that concept. It really isn't that bad of a card. Its just weak, a 2 coin cost card. At this point, I feel that the critiques of Bomb are somewhat whiny and lacking in any real point to make. You're not getting this expansion in depth if you don't get Bomb or the rest of the cards. There's a difference between knowing how to play a game and knowing how to design a game, let alone design a thematic, cohesive expansion to a very popular and unique game that's been crafted by a master game designer. Thanks for the feedback, but this is indeed a done deal.

Bomb stays as is, as do all these cards. If Dominion Gunpowder isn't your cup of tea, move along then and don't play it. Make a better expansion if you think you can. Put it out there on the web and see how it does. That's what I'll be doing with Dominion Gunpowder.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 12:55:26 pm by ErrinF »
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2014, 01:07:14 pm »
0

While there is a difference between knowing how to play a game and knowing how to design a game, there is a huge overlap too. You might need different skills in coming up with thematic cards or elegant cards or interesting cards than you need in beating your opponent, but knowing how to beat your opponent is enough to tell when a card is so weak that you'd never buy it for the purpose of beating your opponent.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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CG19

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2014, 01:30:26 pm »
0

First off, congrats on your first expansion! I think it definitely still needs some work, but I'm glad there is a theme and the cards seem to have been thought out.

The only piece you're missing is playtesting. Integrate the cards in with current Dominion cards and have people play multiple strategies. The cards that are weak and the cards that are overpowered should be obvious after that. Then tweak and playtest again! And again!

Just looking at the cards, I fully agree on the weakness and futility of Bomb. I'm not going to get into a big argument over it. A lot of the best Dominion players in the world visit this forum and this seems to be a common theme. Feel free to playtest and see for yourself! I would be very excited to see some sort log using your expansion or perhaps a recap of the games.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2014, 01:39:23 pm »
+2

Try understanding the entire expansion with a little more depth, because at this point I feel you're the one that just isn't getting it, that isn't absorbing it. The Bomb concept is a card that trashes another card then trashes itself.

Maybe if more than one of the best Dominion players online say it`s not as good as you think, maybe it's not us. Man, it could be that we're right about this and you're not seeing it. It's just a possibility.

Thanks for the feedback, but this is indeed a done deal.

Fine, great. Why are we not allowed to still discuss it? You're crazy to think this thread is going to be locked up just because you don't want to change your cards. We can still comment and discuss what we think would make them better. Also none of them have been tested. Usually people test their games/fan expansions. I know you said you don't own the cards IRL, and you can still post them online for others. There's no problems, but I think nothing is ever a "done deal," there's always room for improvement. Even DXV would make some changes to official cards if he could. Sure the game works and it's amazing, but there could always be tweaks to fix little problems.

If Dominion Gunpowder isn't your cup of tea, move along then and don't play it. Make a better expansion if you think you can. Put it out there on the web and see how it does. That's what I'll be doing with Dominion Gunpowder.

This is understood by everyone on this site. But again, we'll post where we like. If you don't want ot read what we have to say about your cards, then you shouldn't have posted. You don't get to decide when we have to stop talking about your cards. Ignore what we say, it really doesn't matter, but we'll still say it.

And on a side note, LastFootNote has made an expansion, and it's so good I'm surprised he hasn't gottan an actual game publishes yet.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2014, 01:44:33 pm »
+1

piuch... ptisch. boom boom boom
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2014, 03:07:04 pm »
+12

The point is moot because he started harassing me with PMs about how badly he was being treated here and threatening to go to other websites.  I fulfilled his threat, and hopefully both websites are better for it now.

I like DSF, but its served its purpose as far as creating my expansion went, and if the people here are going to continue to denigrate it and me unfairly, I'll just end the discussion about it here all together by logging in one day and removing the topic. Just because its a free variant doesn't mean I'm cool with people treating it so unprofessionally. Please spare me any future foolish assumptions about myself supposedly not being able to take criticism. I simply want the bullshit kept away from my creation so people can enjoy it in a positive atmosphere. If you want to facilitate the trolling and the undue negativity by being soft and naive on the matter, that's your call. Thanks. No need to reply as I am somewhat bored by the conversation and this site at this point.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2014, 03:13:48 pm »
+6

Right, then we can come out and say it. These cards suck. Ok, now I'll go back to being polite.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2014, 03:18:47 pm »
+6

Man, that's just because you are "a very angry, adversarial person who made some Dominion cards once that nobody cared about".  If only we weren't so brutally harsh on Ironmelter, you might not be such a "overly competitive, passive-aggressive" "liar" who is "not on the level, and has some serious issues".  Actually I was warned to "be mindful of potential trolls like" you since you're "an overly adversarial troublemaker who admitted in his own posts that he was being rude and had already caused arguments here that day".  You're treading on thin ice dude.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2014, 03:24:45 pm »
0

Man, that's just because you are "a very angry, adversarial person who made some Dominion cards once that nobody cared about".  If only we weren't so brutally harsh on Ironmelter, you might not be such a "overly competitive, passive-aggressive" "liar" who is "not on the level, and has some serious issues".  Actually I was warned to "be mindful of potential trolls like" you since you're "an overly adversarial troublemaker who admitted in his own posts that he was being rude and had already caused arguments here that day".  You're treading on thin ice dude.

I removed the post. Yeah, that was crossing a line. But I'm not a troll, nothing I posted before that post I just removed was intended to be rude, nor am I a liar.

EDIT: Or the other things in quotes. Except competitive. I am that.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2014, 03:27:17 pm »
0

do you think he was trolling? I can understand people making bad cards, but I can't understand how you can claim bomb is a viable card when comparing it to island. that's just... dunno. but he went so far with this that he almost had to have been serious about it.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2014, 03:31:36 pm »
+13

Man, that's just because you are "a very angry, adversarial person who made some Dominion cards once that nobody cared about".  If only we weren't so brutally harsh on Ironmelter, you might not be such a "overly competitive, passive-aggressive" "liar" who is "not on the level, and has some serious issues".  Actually I was warned to "be mindful of potential trolls like" you since you're "an overly adversarial troublemaker who admitted in his own posts that he was being rude and had already caused arguments here that day".  You're treading on thin ice dude.

I removed the post. Yeah, that was crossing a line. But I'm not a troll, nothing I posted before that post I just removed was intended to be rude, nor am I a liar.

EDIT: Or the other things in quotes. Except competitive. I am that.

Maybe my sarcasm didn't carry through.  The guy is seriously unhinged.  He reported a bunch of your posts, and I foolishly wrote to him explaining that I wasn't going to remove all criticism of his expansion just because he didn't like it.  That set him off and he went on a massive rant about you and this site.  It was like David Sirlin: The Early Years or something.
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ErrinFU

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2014, 03:39:25 pm »
+1

Wow. What a bunch of drama and unprofessional bs. Theory has to be one of the worst moderators I've ever encountered, sharing PRIVATE messages and saying I harrassed him when all I did was send one message saying he was naive.

And yes, KingZog3 is a troublemaker and a liar who wholly misrepresented our interaction over at Goko. You'd think he was angry and adversarial too if he abused your trust like he did mine and then lied about you for no good reason whatsoever.I regret ever trusting him over at Goko. I regret ever trusting theory to be confidential. theory is a rube easily played by KingZog3. Trolls can easily have their way with such dupes overlooking the site.

Dont ban me from this site but keep this forum up, morons. Clear it all out. I'm embarrassed I ever dealt with you drama mamas here. Sorry theory couldnt handle the truth about how poorly he moderates this site.

Again, take down anything about Dominion Gunpowder here since this website is not at all friendly to people who create games. I want nothing to do with you weirdos. The admins/moderators here are a joke, thoroughly unprofessional.

And talk all the smack about me you like. You're not even that great of Dominion players. You certainly no little about game design. You're fooling yourself if you think anybody really cares all that much about your opinions when it comes to Dominion.

You all turned this forum into a mess, and are mad at me cuz I didnt put up with your bs. So kill this topic and move on. L8r.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2014, 03:40:18 pm »
+2

do you think he was trolling? I can understand people making bad cards, but I can't understand how you can claim bomb is a viable card when comparing it to island. that's just... dunno. but he went so far with this that he almost had to have been serious about it.
I don't think so. If he was trolling, he was very good at it, and if he was very good at trolling, he wouldn't have gotten himself banned this soon. I have seen one genuine troll that was on this level, and it took him 1.5 years before he forgot to switch accounts and got caught.
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ErrinFU

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2014, 03:43:02 pm »
0

theory, I am not unhinged. you stupidly fell for Zog's halfass story without any other verification. I was blunt to you about it and YOU couldnt handle the criticism. All that talk you did about me supposedly not handling it well, and you were the one who couldnt handle it.

Unhinged? I was pissed off that you bought into that false story about me. I mentioned none of that public, and only said that between us. You were the one that then spazzed out, banned me, and decided to air my private message to you on a public forum. You are thoroughly in the wrong and attacking me AFTER banning me is cowardly. Let alone allowing this forum to exist smply as a way to badmouth me and not discuss Dominion Gunpowder at all. You're the moderator here? You're as off topic as they come. Really... this forum is supposed to be about you complaining about me, and not the variant I submitted?

You people here are way out of line, overly dramatic, and thoroughly unprofessional.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2014, 03:45:00 pm »
+2

well I for one think you're a great moderator  :)
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2014, 03:45:52 pm »
+2

theory's the best though!
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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ErrinFU

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2014, 03:46:08 pm »
0

Im not trolling

I just came here to post a variant.

Some guy named KingZog said i could go play him at Goko. I did that, then he came back here and throughly misrepresented me for reasons I know not why.

All this drama has been brought on by Zog and theory. I wanted to keep it off this forum. theory is handling this WAY too emotionally. Sorry he wasnt an adult that couldnt take a blunt assessment.

Either way, how about we end this stupidity by you deleting this topic all together? I was going to do that myself but i cant because theory threw a fit at me confronting his naive assumptions about me reacting to KingZog's false narrative about me.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2014, 03:50:20 pm »
+9

Quote
Either way, how about we end this stupidity by you deleting this topic all together? I was going to do that myself but i cant because theory threw a fit at me confronting his naive assumptions about me reacting to KingZog's false narrative about me.

this thread is a highly interesting psychological demonstration of how a self absorbed personality can make you completely blind to any sort of logical reason. it has to live on.
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ErrinFU

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2014, 03:50:42 pm »
+1

Great moderators do not air private messages. Great moderators dont lecture about taking criticism, then NOT take criticism themselves. Great moderators dont ban people just because they were confronted bluntly. Be an adult, theory, and delete this topic. You do not have permission to have anything Dominion Gunpowder related here any more at Dominion Strategy Forum. SO take this down. If you want to change it to a bitchfest about me without any reference to Dominion Gunpowder, go for it.

Villify me all you like, but you handled this very poorly. You let KingZog create the trouble around this variant that he was looking to create. DSF is clealry a forum for stupidity and drama. It has little to do with Dominion or game creation. This topic proves that. Continuing to keep it up only makes you look bad, not me.
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liopoil

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2014, 03:55:29 pm »
+5

Great moderators do not air private messages. Great moderators dont lecture about taking criticism, then NOT take criticism themselves. Great moderators dont ban people just because they were confronted bluntly.
In theory, sure, but in reality, they're just theory.

I don't normally read threads in this subforum, mainly because I've never made fan cards myself... this doesn't normally happen, right?
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ErrinFU

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2014, 03:58:43 pm »
0

whatever, silverspawn. i've been plenty nice to the domidiots like you here. You are the examples of selfabsorbed egos you speak of, not me. but ok... anything i say, i;m the bad guy. Thats how you've been treating me form the getgo, so all good. I cant win with losers like you. I get it. I've gotten from the getgo, but handle it nicely. I was merely blunt with theory in private, and feel the way I do about Zog because he lied about me. I can very well be wrong about my other observations about Zog, but I definitely feel he abused my trust and lied about me.

This is an example of a website being full of a bunch of antisocial jerks. Keep trying to make this about me.

Thoroughly unprofessional to ban me but keep this forum up just to gossip and snipe about me.

Thoroughly unprofessional for theory to have such an emotional reaction to my blunt assessment of his poor moderation. Even more professional to ban me but then talk smack about me. That's pretty low, theory. If you are going to turn this topic into attacks on me, at least have the balls to allow me to be around to defend myself. And if I am so deranged and bad as you claim, then you ban me and move on without making such a public spectacle out of it. But you had to make such a public spectacle out of it because your feelings were hurt and you couldn't take the criticism.

Listen, all I did was come back here to delete this topic myself and move on, only to find theory had banned me yet kept the topic up to complain about me. I could care less about the domidiots here. If you want to leave this up as an example of how badly you treat people who submit variants, and as an example of how hostile some of the crowd here is to new people, go for it. But I would prefer if theory would be professional once and delete this entirely, forget this episode ever happened, and we move on. I'll just have to hope theory is mature and adult enough to do just that, but I won't hold my breath. He'll probably just let this remain up because he ain't all that smart or professional.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:04:48 pm by ErrinFU »
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ErrinFU

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2014, 04:03:13 pm »
0

Correct. This does not normally happen, and theory unfairly banned me without even discussing with me, then kept this topic up to talk trash about it. I am not a troll, but if I was, he'd be feeding me big time. Truth is, theory cannot handle trolls the like of KingZog3, who disrupted this topic with a one-sided, sleective story making me out to be some Dominion noob when I am not.

Somebody higher up here needs to review this and talk to theory about banning people out of emotion or keeping a forum up just to have it be an off topic ad hominem bitchfest of the various unhappy people that hang out here a lot.

I have a history at other game-related websites of not causing any trouble whatsoever. The troublemaking was not ata ll caused on my end, and I tried to handle it privately. It is theory who made a public spectacle out of all of this.

Ridiculous I even had to log in as this bogus account, or that I can't delete the Dominion Gunpowder topic here at DSF that I posted originally. But that's what happens when unprofessional moderators like theory act out of emotion instead of sensibility. Who put him in a position of authority here? Cause he doesnt seem to know how to handle it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2014, 04:06:46 pm »
+2

Thoroughly unprofessional to ban me but keep this forum up just to gossip and snipe about me.
Yeah, theory should just close down f.ds because you're banned now.

Besides, it was clearly a good idea to not let you stay around to defend yourself, since now that you're here, you aren't defending yourself, you're attacking theory and KingZog for no reason at all.

Plus, you can't delete your own topics anyway, it doesn't matter that the account you used for posting this thread is banned.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:09:54 pm by Awaclus »
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liopoil

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2014, 04:08:15 pm »
+1

I think he means this thread, and really, I don't see why this thread shouldn't just be deleted.
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theory

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2014, 04:08:56 pm »
+16

When I saw him post, I was like, damn, I forgot to IP ban him!  But now I'm sort of happy I forgot to do that at first.

Also, seriously, who put me in a position of authority here?  Probably someone totally unprofessional ...
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theory

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2014, 04:15:41 pm »
+20

Plus it seems like it'd be such a pity to delete the first Google search result for "Dominion: Gunpowder".  Imagine what would be lost to citizens of the future if we prevented them from reading the Secret History of Dominion: Gunpowder. 
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2014, 04:18:33 pm »
+12

i'm going to try to be reasonable one last time. not because i believe in the good in people, but just for the chance.

read the thread again, with an open mind. I've been telling you with my very first post that your expansion is crap, it had one card which wasn't completely awful, and that card is army. the only reason I didn't tell it to you like that was because I've been told that I can be too harsh before. But I didn't screw around, I wrote this:

Quote
Yea, dunno, making good cards is extremely difficult at this point. [...] I can almost guarantee you that no card from this set except for Army is playable as it is, unless I misread them... you said it's something you did for fun though, and that's completely fine.

Maybe the way I phrased it gave you wrong ideas about the cards just needing a little bit of tweaking. But I do think I was pretty direct.

But you didn't get it. You just kept making posts like this:

Quote
That's what I was thinking for most of the cards in this expansion. I'm really happy with how it all turned out.

And then people told you again that your cards didn't work, upon which you reacted with minor chances that didn't improve the expansion in any meaningful way, and we kept telling you that they were bad, and then you made some more changes and said that you're really thankful for all the feedback and  that you're really happy with how the expansion looks, then we told you it's bad, then you said the expansion is finished now. just ???

I'm being completely honest now. Everyone knew that your expansion was bad, from the first time we read your OP. It was just a matter of how we tell it to you. Man, LastFootnote is working on his expansion for over two years now, he has spend a ridiculous amount of time testing it and it's still not finished. Hours and hours of playtesting went into every single card. And then you come here, expecting your expansion to be playable after some completely intuitive changes and zero testing whatsoever. I hate to say it to you, but the world doesn't work like that. Santa Claus doesn't exist either. And we aren't guessing, we know what we're talking about. I can't proof this to you, but man look at how many games we've played. Do you seriously think we're bad at the game, all of us? Do you really, really think that if a guy who is ranked #100 in the world needs years to make a good expansion, you can do it in less than a weak? Just no. This forum isn't the problem. You are the problem. I can't say it much clearer.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:20:04 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2014, 04:25:42 pm »
+2

Some people cannot take criticism well.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2014, 04:29:57 pm »
0

meh now that he's ip banned I'll never know how he reacted :c

but it's very unlikely that I came through to him anyway
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2014, 04:34:15 pm »
0

meh now that he's ip banned I'll never know how he reacted :c

but it's very unlikely that I came through to him anyway
You erased any lingering thread of sympathy I might have had had for him at least (although that thread of sympathy probably never actually existed).
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theory

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2014, 04:36:07 pm »
+7

Nah, just let it all out.  For once tell someone what you really think of their expansion.  No more couching your criticism in "you know it looks great but you aren't so experienced so let's talk about some things you can work on".  Maybe we can bait ErrinF into becoming as famous here as he was on the Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/08/04/233404/-UPDATED-The-Cult-of-ErrinF

Or alternatively, anytime you want to say something mean about someone else's expansion, just come here and talk about how horrible Bomb is again.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2014, 04:41:38 pm »
+1

Maybe we can bait ErrinF into becoming as famous here as he was on the Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/08/04/233404/-UPDATED-The-Cult-of-ErrinF
is this really the same ErrinF? Wow.

EDIT:
Or alternatively, anytime you want to say something mean about someone else's expansion, just come here and talk about how horrible Bomb is again.

Yes. Bomb sucks.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2014, 04:46:33 pm »
0

wait, it's a she?  :o

e:
Quote from: Update 8Aug2006
ErrinF tried to post a pathetic followup diary today right in the middle of the Lieberman/Lamont race. No art, no timing, and apparently no brain. I won't link the the web site where he (it is a he, not a she) is spouting off because it's just too lame.

aww, that's too bad
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:52:00 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2014, 04:50:59 pm »
0

wait, it's a she?  :o

No, keep reading. That was corrected. Also, he registered as male on this forum.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2014, 05:27:24 pm »
0

Nah, just let it all out.  For once tell someone what you really think of their expansion.  No more couching your criticism in "you know it looks great but you aren't so experienced so let's talk about some things you can work on".  Maybe we can bait ErrinF into becoming as famous here as he was on the Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/08/04/233404/-UPDATED-The-Cult-of-ErrinF

Or alternatively, anytime you want to say something mean about someone else's expansion, just come here and talk about how horrible Bomb is again.

@your post before. Yeah I missed the sarcasm :P In this case I'll pu tmy comment back. It was "Right, I'll just say it outright. These cards suck. I'll go back to being polite now." I never would post that directly to a person. I thought he was banned, and he seemed to think I hate him. I honestly don't know why. He played like I did a year ago, and I just posted what he talked about. I even said I didn't have a chance to ask him.

Yeah, when people critic my artwork IRL, I hate it when they tell me it's great and they like it, maybe this could be a little better. I want to know if it doesn't work, if it really needs changing. Of course be an ass about it, but let me know if I do something wrong.

And I bet he comes back from a different IP. Man, Bomb sucks.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2014, 05:40:22 pm »
+1

Quote
Yeah, when people critic my artwork IRL, I hate it when they tell me it's great and they like it, maybe this could be a little better. I want to know if it doesn't work, if it really needs changing. Of course be an ass about it, but let me know if I do something wrong.
that's really a non trivial problem though. you can never do it just right, you will always either be too harsh for some people's tastes, or not direct enough for some, or both.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #92 on: July 06, 2014, 06:38:55 pm »
+2

I just bluntly state the facts. Pretending that the faults aren't there doesn't make them disappear in reality, and everyone will be happier if the artist fixes them, including (perhaps especially) the artist. This also means that an artist who is familiar with me knows that if I'm praising his work, I really mean it, too, which is something that I would like to know on a much more regular basis myself.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #93 on: July 06, 2014, 06:58:29 pm »
0

So, anybody got card ideas on the back burner?
LF: any updates for the Enterprise thread?
I'm not sure how happy I'd be if the other threads all ground to a halt, just because there exists a crazy person on the internet. If he's really been acting like this for an entire decade over several websites, we could be talking about him for days.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #94 on: July 06, 2014, 07:05:30 pm »
+2

So, anybody got card ideas on the back burner?

i got these:
Quote
Action - 5$
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per differently priced card in it that's worth between 2$ and 6$

Quote
Action - 5$
Reveal your hand. +1$ per non-Treasure card in it.

Quote
Action - 4$
+4$
+1 buy
Each other player may trash 2 cards from his hand and gain a card costing less than both of them combined or a curse.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #95 on: July 06, 2014, 07:34:44 pm »
+1

Quote
Yeah, when people critic my artwork IRL, I hate it when they tell me it's great and they like it, maybe this could be a little better. I want to know if it doesn't work, if it really needs changing. Of course be an ass about it, but let me know if I do something wrong.
that's really a non trivial problem though. you can never do it just right, you will always either be too harsh for some people's tastes, or not direct enough for some, or both.

This is true, but there are way too many people who don't understand what critiquing is. I've taken classes where everyone just says they like things, but no one improves. Sure some people won't be as harsh, or some too harsh, but really it's just about having an opinions and reason as to why you like or dislike things. People often try to critique but can't actually say why they like something. Again, this could be hard with artwork, but you have to at least try. That's what I think anyway.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #96 on: July 06, 2014, 07:36:45 pm »
0

So, anybody got card ideas on the back burner?

i got these:
Quote
Action - 5$
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per differently priced card in it that's worth between 2$ and 6$

Quote
Action - 5$
Reveal your hand. +1$ per non-Treasure card in it.

Quote
Action - 4$
+4$
+1 buy
Each other player may trash 2 cards from his hand and gain a card costing less than both of them combined or a curse.

Double post.

Wow, I don't even know how strong will be. I have a feeling the second one won't be that great. Terminal $ isn't great to start with. Second of all often I'll be playing my actions, and may not have an action to spare to play it mid turn. It would be good end game where you're greening and have lots VP cards in hand, but it still needs a strong engine to be good, and it picks up late.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2014, 09:15:33 pm »
+16

Just played a game with Bomb, using Transmute as a proxy, of course, as per the official rules.  While my stupid opponent went for things like Chapel and Sea Hag, which of course just eventually became completely dead junk cards in his own hand, I was running a nice thin deck thanks to being able to trash the Gunpowders and Bombs with each use. Since Gunpowder only costs $2 now, I was able to buy one on every turn! So after turn 20 or so, I had completely rid myself of all my starting cards, without having to get stuck with a stupid Chapel in my deck! Meanwhile my opponent was just clogging up his deck even more by buying Provinces. But of course that just eventually clogged up his engine, what with the extra Chapel and Sea Hag lying around. So I was able to fire off my mega-turn, and buy BOTH of the remaining Provinces, along with BOTH of the 2 remaining Duchies!
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #98 on: July 06, 2014, 09:52:03 pm »
+15

I don't want to defend ErinF but banning someone and then talking about them like this is highly unprofessional, especially so when you quote things from a private message sent to you in your capacity as a mod. Please think twice before doing something like this again (not the ban, what happened after).
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2014, 09:54:34 pm »
+2

I'll agree that I'm not so comfortable with quoting a private message, even from someone who may just be a troll. I'd feel a lot better if I knew that any private message sent would remain private.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #100 on: July 06, 2014, 09:56:23 pm »
+1

I don't want to defend ErinF but banning someone and then talking about them like this is highly unprofessional, especially so when you quote things from a private message sent to you in your capacity as a mod. Please think twice before doing something like this again (not the ban, what happened after).
Why's that, though? I think it's reasonable to explain why someone has been banned, especially when the reason is private messages.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2014, 09:58:13 pm »
0

I don't want to defend ErinF but banning someone and then talking about them like this is highly unprofessional, especially so when you quote things from a private message sent to you in your capacity as a mod. Please think twice before doing something like this again (not the ban, what happened after).
well, any pm you send will be kept private, because you aren't throwing wild accusations around and insult a bunch of people who have been on their best behavior towards you. I can't really bring myself to be upset about this. set in stone norms aren't necessary when you can trust in individual judgement, so as long as theory doesn't do it with anyone else, I don't see a problem.

Also, he didn't even quote any pms, he just paraphrased.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2014, 10:07:28 pm »
0

I don't want to defend ErinF but banning someone and then talking about them like this is highly unprofessional, especially so when you quote things from a private message sent to you in your capacity as a mod. Please think twice before doing something like this again (not the ban, what happened after).

I guess it's unprofessional. I think if he needed to ban me for some reason he may not show PMs. But I don't have a history of doing this, and my guess is I'd be reasonable. Theory linked to another site this guy has done the same thing publicly. And it was pretty rude toward me, I somehow feel better knowing what he actually thought of me.

EDIT: I trust Theory that any PM with actual information will remain private. But that message (which we don't know was a quote or not) was showing us really why he was banned. No one was banned on the Squire thread, and that conversation got heated. But my assumption is that jomini is a reasonable guy, and so am I. So it ended and no one was banned. This thread derailed, but when we tried to stay reasonable, ErrinF got angry, and seemed to think I'm making up stories about him and accused me of trying to portray him negatively. He thought our conversation during our goko games was somehow out of bounds for me to repeat. Unprofessional, perhaps. But rules don't need to be set in stone, just followed when they actually help a situation. That's a terrible argument, but I'm justifying seeing the PM and it was great. Every single post theory made here cracked me up so much.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 10:14:16 pm by KingZog3 »
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2014, 10:09:28 pm »
+6

This thread has most definitely delivered.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #104 on: July 06, 2014, 10:14:59 pm »
+9

This thread has most definitely delivered.

With the force of a Bomb!
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2014, 10:24:36 pm »
+1

The most impressive thing was how recognizable ErrinF's tone was on that other website.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2014, 10:32:29 pm »
+2

I actually +1'd some of his comments before, to try and make him feel welcome. I remember feeling good when people +1'd my stuff. But I went and took those away now. Or maybe we should all +1 Dominion:Gunpowder. For all the laughs.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2014, 02:12:46 am »
+3

I felt a sense of impending doom watching this thread from about page 2. I don't really do the fan-card thing myself, but I know some of you guys on here have made some pretty legit stuff in that regard.

It's pretty laughable (especially from my perspective of being a very amateur player) him (she, it?) writing off the world's top players' advice.

Dah. I don't even know entirely why I posted this. Just, I've been watching this thread from the start--and it was pretty interesting to see it develop.

On somewhat of a side note (and not being a suck up, just some legitimate thought), I feel like theory is one of the best forum mods I've ever seen. You really feel like he's a real person who is exceedingly reasonable--and has a great relationship with the community. I've given up on so many other websites because the mods are just so hyper-active and enforcing very silly rules and then changing their minds--which just ends up discrediting them. Oh well, I really can't say enough good things about this forum.

This community is like my kin a Mafia crime family to me.

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2014, 02:32:54 am »
+4

Nah, just let it all out.  For once tell someone what you really think of their expansion.  No more couching your criticism in "you know it looks great but you aren't so experienced so let's talk about some things you can work on".  Maybe we can bait ErrinF into becoming as famous here as he was on the Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/08/04/233404/-UPDATED-The-Cult-of-ErrinF

Or alternatively, anytime you want to say something mean about someone else's expansion, just come here and talk about how horrible Bomb is again.

Does this mean it was hopeless from the start?  That's depressing.  I really did try to be helpful.

I'm also kind of curious which posts he reported.  It all seemed entirely civil to me until it exploded... like a bomb...
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2014, 04:37:25 am »
+7

Is it bad that whenever I see the word "gunpowder," I automatically think about covering my castles?
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2014, 07:24:40 am »
0

Nah, just let it all out.  For once tell someone what you really think of their expansion.  No more couching your criticism in "you know it looks great but you aren't so experienced so let's talk about some things you can work on".  Maybe we can bait ErrinF into becoming as famous here as he was on the Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/08/04/233404/-UPDATED-The-Cult-of-ErrinF

Or alternatively, anytime you want to say something mean about someone else's expansion, just come here and talk about how horrible Bomb is again.

Does this mean it was hopeless from the start?  That's depressing.  I really did try to be helpful.

I'm also kind of curious which posts he reported.  It all seemed entirely civil to me until it exploded... like a bomb...

100% the one where I talked about my games with him. He seemed to think I was lying and trying to ruin his expansion.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2014, 09:28:15 am »
0

well this was a fun thread to read and all that drama and stuff xD

that aside I found a solution to the fundamental problem with gp!

Remember when he reduced the price from 3$ to 2$ to make them more easy to get?
Well obv this nonsense because you still waste a whole buy (without +buy) a whole turn --->waaay to slow.

To change this add: buying gp doesnt cost buys; or if you buy gp get 1+buy.

So with gp at 2$ you can really rush some 3gp purchases in one turn! Or you can spend your surplus money on
gp, like steward +gp...

Now there is this small problem "only ten gps max." make them like spoil for more value!

This would make things way more explosive (hehe gp being explosive...)

obv all this cards need some tweaking! I mean the alchemist cards are all really really powerful, and some are kinda
broken.
I mean look at scrying pool games!?

bomb: as someone mentioned bomb all the cards! could be a cool 1shot midgame on engine boards!
 still worse then chapel (lol thats a good thing)!

army: still too weak! at that cost 6+gp it should be on pairs with KC or possession!
my approach: like thieve but for vp cards.

well the other cards are all too boring or confusing, so you have to completely rework them!

cannon: opp reveals from deck till a action card shows up -> trash it! If it is a fortress it wont come back XD
nah... im currently bad in smiting new cards! 


















« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 09:30:17 am by Jasoba »
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2014, 09:42:06 am »
+6

I don't want to defend ErinF but banning someone and then talking about them like this is highly unprofessional, especially so when you quote things from a private message sent to you in your capacity as a mod. Please think twice before doing something like this again (not the ban, what happened after).

Understandable.

I left most of his message unquoted.  (It was a very long private message.)  I strongly prefer not to air dirty laundry, but that's a preference grounded in mutual respect and civility.  In my view, he crossed that line and then some, and so I felt no compunction about explaining exactly the reason why he was banned.  Ordinarily people get banned for making a particular post, and I can label that post as "User was banned for this post", but where your banworthy conduct is across PMs, there's no particular post to label that way.

So I guess the better way of putting it is: I won't publish PMs you send me, unless they are the type of message that will get you banned AND you show a total disregard for the standards of civility that govern the site.  If he had posted it on the forum, he would certainly get banned, and so sending it to me via PM doesn't shield him.

EDIT: I spoke to Captain_Frisk about it and showed him the full PM.  His words: "I would probably make it clear in thread that the quoted PM was an inoffensive section of a much larger extended sequence of diatribes, and quoted as evidence that he was bored with the site"
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2014, 09:45:23 am »
+1

I felt a sense of impending doom watching this thread from about page 2. I don't really do the fan-card thing myself, but I know some of you guys on here have made some pretty legit stuff in that regard.

It's pretty laughable (especially from my perspective of being a very amateur player) him (she, it?) writing off the world's top players' advice.

Dah. I don't even know entirely why I posted this. Just, I've been watching this thread from the start--and it was pretty interesting to see it develop.

On somewhat of a side note (and not being a suck up, just some legitimate thought), I feel like theory is one of the best forum mods I've ever seen. You really feel like he's a real person who is exceedingly reasonable--and has a great relationship with the community. I've given up on so many other websites because the mods are just so hyper-active and enforcing very silly rules and then changing their minds--which just ends up discrediting them. Oh well, I really can't say enough good things about this forum.

This community is like my kin a Mafia crime family to me.


I think a lot of this has to do with the community as a whole.  First, there's a complete lack of silly rules because we just generally don't need them.  Which means that there's very little to enforce... because most of us are self policing.  And since political discussion is pretty well sequestered, actual inflammatory trolling is kept to a minimum.  Theory and Renaud can pretty much sit back and... not do much at all.

The banhammer has only shown up three or four times, and it's always someone completely new who doesn't take the time to... understand the community, I guess?... before posting and being a jerk to highly respected people.  And not respect in the silly post sense, actual respect, even when we disagree on things.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2014, 09:50:45 am »
+2

Incidentally, the only other deranged PM on this level was also sent by someone who did not respond well to criticism of his fan card.  I'll post this since it happened about a year and a half ago and the guy has made no effort to return.  He told me:

Quote
PS. By any chance do you happen to live around San Francisco, California at S. Van Ness Avenue and Cesar Chavez street? That's nice.  Oh, and don't worry, it's not like you banned a psychopath; I'm a perfectly normal human being who can handle an unjustified ban perfectly normally.

I think it would have been rather more threatening if he had been within two time zones of my actual address.  Also, imagine being the guy that lives there, and getting a raging Dominion psychopath at your door.  You would be so confused.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2014, 09:59:21 am »
+6

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #117 on: July 07, 2014, 05:31:19 pm »
+3

Shouldn't this be in the "Really Bad Card Ideas" thread?
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #118 on: July 07, 2014, 05:34:53 pm »
+1

I was originally going to post something similar to Adam but I like this answer:

So I guess the better way of putting it is: I won't publish PMs you send me, unless they are the type of message that will get you banned AND you show a total disregard for the standards of civility that govern the site.  If he had posted it on the forum, he would certainly get banned, and so sending it to me via PM doesn't shield him.

That said, KingZog3 is a douchebag and he should be publicly flogged.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #119 on: July 07, 2014, 05:42:58 pm »
0

Shouldn't this be in the "Really Bad Card Ideas" thread?

1 hour before your post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=114.2800
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #120 on: July 07, 2014, 05:44:23 pm »
0

army: still too weak! at that cost 6+gp it should be on pairs with KC or possession!
my approach: like thieve but for vp cards.

Army didn't have a GP cost.  It was $6 only.  Some people commented that it was too weak, though I personally think it's quite strong.  It can always be a Lab with flexible filtering, which in itself is worth $6, but it adds additional options that make it very flexible.

It was pretty much the only card in the set that didn't have major flaws so I didn't really say much against Army, though I think there are some potential problems with it as well.  First, it is probably fairly slow to resolve.  You've got to look at a card, decide if you want to keep it, then choose a bonus if you didn't.  Often you will draw a new card, in which case you have to evaluate how that fits in with your current hand.  Then you have to look at another card, decide if you want that now, and if not you have to pick another bonus again.  Spy is already considered slow to resolve with more than one opponent, and Army has a similar number of decisions to make.  It could also be tough to track -- it's kind of like Pawn but with other events interrupting the choices (the filtering part of the action, which happens twice) so it may be tougher to remember whether you happened to choose a bonus other than +cards.

Those are nitpicks though and would have needed real play testing to see if they were actual problems.  There were bigger issues at hand.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #121 on: July 07, 2014, 05:59:02 pm »
0

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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #122 on: July 07, 2014, 08:51:44 pm »
0

I was originally going to post something similar to Adam but I like this answer:

So I guess the better way of putting it is: I won't publish PMs you send me, unless they are the type of message that will get you banned AND you show a total disregard for the standards of civility that govern the site.  If he had posted it on the forum, he would certainly get banned, and so sending it to me via PM doesn't shield him.

That said, KingZog3 is a douchebag and he should be publicly flogged.

You have no authority. You're red and fluffy.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #123 on: July 07, 2014, 09:08:40 pm »
0

well army isn't awful, but that's about it. it's a lab variant that's more flexible. It's basically a pawn with an action tagged on and without the restriction that the choices must be different, except it can also discard cards, but I don't really get why the discard card thing is there. Does it somehow make sense that you can only choose if you discard the card?

about the powerlevel debate; i thought it was very strong for $6. Even just this version
+1 Action
Do this Twice: Look at the top card of your deck; you may discard it. Either way, +1 Card.

seems pretty good for 6$, and Army can also do other stuff.

but whatever. I find it boring. the only reason it stands out is that the other cards are all terrible.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2014, 10:44:08 pm »
0

well army isn't awful, but that's about it. it's a lab variant that's more flexible. It's basically a pawn with an action tagged on and without the restriction that the choices must be different, except it can also discard cards, but I don't really get why the discard card thing is there. Does it somehow make sense that you can only choose if you discard the card?

about the powerlevel debate; i thought it was very strong for $6. Even just this version
+1 Action
Do this Twice: Look at the top card of your deck; you may discard it. Either way, +1 Card.

seems pretty good for 6$, and Army can also do other stuff.

but whatever. I find it boring. the only reason it stands out is that the other cards are all terrible.

The discard thing is basically Oracle-style filtering.  Yes, this is why I thought it was strong for $6.  Most of the other comments said it was still on the weak side, which surprised me.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2014, 10:50:16 pm »
0

The discard thing is basically Oracle-style filtering.  Yes, this is why I thought it was strong for $6.  Most of the other comments said it was still on the weak side, which surprised me.
A lot of $6 cards are strong for $6. Army is not the worst, but I think that it would be below average.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2014, 12:20:38 am »
0

The discard thing is basically Oracle-style filtering.  Yes, this is why I thought it was strong for $6.  Most of the other comments said it was still on the weak side, which surprised me.
A lot of $6 cards are strong for $6. Army is not the worst, but I think that it would be below average.
that's true. but it's not a given that you have to compare it to other 6$'s, most times there won't be other 6$'s around. more realistically, 6$'s have to compeat against gold and power 5$'s, and there armory will be pretty good.
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ConMan

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2014, 07:24:43 pm »
0

A lot of $6 cards are strong for $6.
Sure, because when you have $6 you have to put the card past the Gold test.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2014, 11:40:04 am »
+2

You certainly no little about game design.

I hope he doesn't tell that to Greater Than Games.

._.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2014, 06:20:15 pm »
+11

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2014, 06:24:15 pm »
+1

This kind of makes me sad that Donald X doesn't read the fan card forum.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2014, 07:41:15 pm »
0

I'm sure he does, on occasion. He just won't ever post here, just in case something similar ends up in one of his games.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2014, 07:43:55 pm »
+13

I'm sure he does, on occasion. He just won't ever post here, just in case something similar ends up in one of his games.

New Promo: Bomb.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2014, 09:01:32 am »
+7

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2014, 09:28:36 am »
0

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

For the record, I never spun any story about him. I never pm'd theory, and my only pm's to him were to arrange a game on goko. You don't need to find it funny, but he did ignor everything we said and made up stories about me making up stories. I'd be sad if this were taken down as reading all the comments on bomb is funny, especially after he ignored our comments about it the first 5 times.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #135 on: July 17, 2014, 10:07:26 am »
+13

Looks like there's been a decline of civility on f.ds, huh?

bomb though. heh. bomb.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2014, 10:11:12 am »
0

Hm, I actually thought everyone was being really nice to him until he got very defensive, then offensive.

The criticism of his cards was constructive and polite, even when he was kind of unwilling or unable to really understand what they were saying.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2014, 10:20:39 am »
+1

And KingZog's comments after their game together were interesting, taken apart from this context.  Specifically, the point about play style and understanding of the game influencing how you create cards. 

Without a nuanced understanding of the game flow and progression, and using concepts like "numbers of shuffles," you might not be able to see why Bomb is not good.  Yes, I know it's not good, but essentially it's a cheap card that trashes a card, and trashing is generally good, so alright.  Except the trashing is the slowest it can possibly be.  If the flow of a Dominion game were different, that might not be as bad as it actually as.  But as it actually is, by the time you've used it to get rid of any noticable amount of your starting cards, any strategy has already grabbed up half the victory points.  (As it's been pointed out, you have to buy the new Potion variant, then this card for each card you want to trash, taking up all your buys.)

At one point he responded something like "So it takes a few more shuffles to get things going, so what?"  This is something interesting, because I often find myself thinking this way. Well, I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I've lost quite a few Dominion games (against Bots and in real life) by thinking along these lines.  As a beginning, or even intermediate, player, you don't quite have a feel of the pace of Dominion games.  Unless everyone is adopting money strategies, newer games tend to go on for a lot longer because people buy a lot of action cards but don't really know how to build engines or balance them.
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theory

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #138 on: July 17, 2014, 11:04:40 am »
+8

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback you want to offer, but I don't think I would do anything differently.  Part of the gap here might be that I quoted only a very tiny portion of his PMs to me.  What I saw was not a new player making a new expansion ignorant of higher-level strategy; instead I saw a toxic and uncontributing member of the community who viewed this as a promotional platform for his genius game, and who was harassing me to discipline and punish anyone who criticized his game.

That's why I expressed relief that I had forgotten to IP ban him, because I think his post-ban posts more accurately reflect his true form.  Those posts reveal a lot about him, particularly the obvious misrepresentations contained therein.

Of course I am open to changing my view.  However, I generally think that unpleasant individuals are best removed from a community swiftly and harshly, rather than allowing them to fester, drag down the discussions, and discourage others.  We are doing fine without him.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #139 on: July 17, 2014, 11:30:56 am »
+2

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

What I saw was not a new player making a new expansion ignorant of higher-level strategy; instead I saw a toxic and uncontributing member of the community who viewed this as a promotional platform for his genius game, and who was harassing me to discipline and punish anyone who criticized his game.


Yeah this pretty much sums up how I feel about this. You can't just stroll into the fan cards subforum and tell everyone you're open to feedback when you're clearly not. Honestly if I was thinking about making any sort of game or even expansion, I would want years of playtesting and feedback. Homeboy hadn't playtested AT ALL and just wanted to show off his creation without having to admit he didn't know what the hell he was doing. In my opinion, when you go off talking about something you know nothing about, you deserve to be taught a lesson.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #140 on: July 27, 2014, 10:18:16 am »
+10

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback you want to offer, but I don't think I would do anything differently
Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was criticizing your way of handling the unfortunate situation. That's not the case at all, it's just that I find everyone linking this thread everywhere unsavory. These kind of things are best swept under the rug I think. Even though Errin had it coming due to his behavior, I think laughing at him all over the forums makes us seem elitist and not welcoming towards newer members. We were all new once, newer guys don't always know what they are talking about. Some people might interpret these jokes as bullying, laughing at not being expert.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #141 on: July 27, 2014, 10:20:09 am »
0

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback you want to offer, but I don't think I would do anything differently
Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was criticizing your way of handling the unfortunate situation. That's not the case at all, it's just that I find everyone linking this thread everywhere unsavory. These kind of things are best swept under the rug I think. Even though Errin had it coming due to his behavior, I think laughing at him all over the forums makes us seem elitist and not welcoming towards newer members. We were all new once, newer guys don't always know what they are talking about. Some people might interpret these jokes as bullying, laughing at not being expert.
in that case, bringing the thread back after it hasn't been touched for 10 days is probably not helpful.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #142 on: July 27, 2014, 10:39:00 am »
0

We were all new once, newer guys don't always know what they are talking about.
This is not merely a newbie being a newbie.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #143 on: July 27, 2014, 11:59:43 am »
0

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback you want to offer, but I don't think I would do anything differently
Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was criticizing your way of handling the unfortunate situation. That's not the case at all, it's just that I find everyone linking this thread everywhere unsavory. These kind of things are best swept under the rug I think. Even though Errin had it coming due to his behavior, I think laughing at him all over the forums makes us seem elitist and not welcoming towards newer members. We were all new once, newer guys don't always know what they are talking about. Some people might interpret these jokes as bullying, laughing at not being expert.
in that case, bringing the thread back after it hasn't been touched for 10 days is probably not helpful.

Oh come on, you can't respond to Eevee's post like that.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #144 on: July 27, 2014, 12:07:48 pm »
0

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback you want to offer, but I don't think I would do anything differently
Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was criticizing your way of handling the unfortunate situation. That's not the case at all, it's just that I find everyone linking this thread everywhere unsavory. These kind of things are best swept under the rug I think. Even though Errin had it coming due to his behavior, I think laughing at him all over the forums makes us seem elitist and not welcoming towards newer members. We were all new once, newer guys don't always know what they are talking about. Some people might interpret these jokes as bullying, laughing at not being expert.
in that case, bringing the thread back after it hasn't been touched for 10 days is probably not helpful.

Oh come on, you can't respond to Eevee's post like that.

but that's exactly what it is. he brought attention to the thread only to state that you shouldn't bring attention to the thread.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #145 on: July 27, 2014, 12:09:49 pm »
+4

While the OP was obviously most in the wrong in this thread, I don't find this thread entertaining nor I think this is a good look for f.ds either. Nothing to be proud about for either side, in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback you want to offer, but I don't think I would do anything differently
Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was criticizing your way of handling the unfortunate situation. That's not the case at all, it's just that I find everyone linking this thread everywhere unsavory. These kind of things are best swept under the rug I think. Even though Errin had it coming due to his behavior, I think laughing at him all over the forums makes us seem elitist and not welcoming towards newer members. We were all new once, newer guys don't always know what they are talking about. Some people might interpret these jokes as bullying, laughing at not being expert.
in that case, bringing the thread back after it hasn't been touched for 10 days is probably not helpful.

Oh come on, you can't respond to Eevee's post like that.

but that's exactly what it is. he brought attention to the thread only to state that you shouldn't bring attention to the thread.

He should have made a poll as to whether this thread should never be spoken of again or not :P.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #146 on: July 27, 2014, 12:12:59 pm »
0

No, he's participating in a discussion. Just because the thread is bumped back up to the top doesn't mean it's drawing any more attention than it was already.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #147 on: July 27, 2014, 12:14:16 pm »
0

No, he's participating in a discussion. Just because the thread is bumped back up to the top doesn't mean it's drawing any more attention than it was already.
of course that's what it means, everyone who visits this section now sees this thread at the top.
i've no problem with that, i like everything about this thread, i'm just stating facts.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #148 on: July 27, 2014, 12:20:25 pm »
+1

No, he's participating in a discussion. Just because the thread is bumped back up to the top doesn't mean it's drawing any more attention than it was already.
of course that's what it means, everyone who visits this section now sees this thread at the top.
i've no problem with that, i like everything about this thread, i'm just stating facts.

What you're doing is going out of your way to discredit Eevee without actually discussing what Eevee was talking about and it's rude. He had a legitimate post of his opinions and all you did was accuse him of some completely irrelevant "fact" that means nothing. I can turn around and say you're doing the same thing you're accusing Eevee of doing by bumping this thread but that doesn't solve anything. I'd rather have a rational conversation about something instead of accussing people of little things like bumping a thread.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #149 on: July 27, 2014, 01:13:07 pm »
0

No, he's participating in a discussion. Just because the thread is bumped back up to the top doesn't mean it's drawing any more attention than it was already.
of course that's what it means, everyone who visits this section now sees this thread at the top.
i've no problem with that, i like everything about this thread, i'm just stating facts.

What you're doing is going out of your way to discredit Eevee without actually discussing what Eevee was talking about and it's rude. He had a legitimate post of his opinions and all you did was accuse him of some completely irrelevant "fact" that means nothing. I can turn around and say you're doing the same thing you're accusing Eevee of doing by bumping this thread but that doesn't solve anything. I'd rather have a rational conversation about something instead of accussing people of little things like bumping a thread.

mh i'm surprised it comes across this way, but I get what you mean. I think. so, my thought process upon reading his post was this: eevee thinks the thread is getting too much attention, and writes in in the thread, which is focusing more attention in it (as you can see, we're discussing this in this thread because he brought it back to life). there is no logical reason to do that, he could have made the same post 10 days earlier where the thread was at the top anyway, or if for some reason he never visited the forum for 10 days, he could have just not made the post. if he just wanted to apologize to theory, he could have send a pm. the only difference between a pm and a post is that the latter can be read by everyone, thus bringing attention to this thread.

so, i was like, "hey, what you're doing doesn't make a lot of sense," but it's not meant to be rude, discrediting or accusative, because like I said, I enjoy this thread. it's more like pointing out that he's making a move for the supposedly opposite argument.

maybe he just wanted to let everyone know that he doesn't think this thread should get much attention, even at the cost of it getting attention. but we already know that he thinks that, because he already posted it.

as for my post, I think pointing out illogical behavior is always worth it, and I don't have a problem with the thread being bumped up again.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 01:14:32 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #150 on: July 27, 2014, 01:20:05 pm »
0

Is this what we call a meta-discussion?
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #151 on: July 27, 2014, 03:34:56 pm »
+6

It's not this thread specifically that is the issue.  Eevee was saying that he thinks it reflects poorly on the f.ds that people are joking about Bomb (and the set and the guy behind it) all over the forum.  It's become a sort of f.ds inside joke a la Scout or Mint/Mine, but Eevee perceives it as mean-spirited rather than being just good fun. 

I understand his point.  On the other hand, the guy was kind of a jerk and it was pointed out that his behaviour has been just as ridiculous in other corners of the internet.  Even so, we could stand to tone down the jokes.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #152 on: July 27, 2014, 04:30:25 pm »
0

It's not this thread specifically that is the issue. [...]

oh yea, fair point. if it was meant that way, my post was inappropriate.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #153 on: July 27, 2014, 04:34:40 pm »
0

It's not this thread specifically that is the issue.  Eevee was saying that he thinks it reflects poorly on the f.ds that people are joking about Bomb (and the set and the guy behind it) all over the forum.  It's become a sort of f.ds inside joke a la Scout or Mint/Mine, but Eevee perceives it as mean-spirited rather than being just good fun. 

I understand his point.  On the other hand, the guy was kind of a jerk and it was pointed out that his behaviour has been just as ridiculous in other corners of the internet.  Even so, we could stand to tone down the jokes.

Honestly I disagree with Eevee's sentiment here, though I understand it.  I think it just shows that we're a generally I light-hearted community that can take anything and turn it into a joke, and that's part of the good thing about this forum. I don't think there is really any mean-spiritedness in here.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #154 on: July 27, 2014, 05:23:31 pm »
0

It's not this thread specifically that is the issue.  Eevee was saying that he thinks it reflects poorly on the f.ds that people are joking about Bomb (and the set and the guy behind it) all over the forum.  It's become a sort of f.ds inside joke a la Scout or Mint/Mine, but Eevee perceives it as mean-spirited rather than being just good fun. 

I understand his point.  On the other hand, the guy was kind of a jerk and it was pointed out that his behaviour has been just as ridiculous in other corners of the internet.  Even so, we could stand to tone down the jokes.

Honestly I disagree with Eevee's sentiment here, though I understand it.  I think it just shows that we're a generally I light-hearted community that can take anything and turn it into a joke, and that's part of the good thing about this forum. I don't think there is really any mean-spiritedness in here.

Yeah. Also, I really think that any newcomer who sees this should understand that ErrinF brought this upon himself by not being new, but by being a... funny person.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #155 on: July 27, 2014, 06:41:22 pm »
+1

yes, i actually think this thread demonstrates the good sides of f.ds, everyone who criticized the cards was more or less direct but also polite.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #156 on: July 27, 2014, 06:56:01 pm »
+1

Motion to ban Eevee.
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KingZong3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #157 on: July 27, 2014, 07:00:26 pm »
+15

Motion to ban Eevee.

I will take it under consideration.
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #158 on: July 28, 2014, 01:21:53 am »
+8

Motion to ban Eevee.

I will take it under consideration.

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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #159 on: July 28, 2014, 10:27:12 am »
0

The Wrath of Zong.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2014, 02:23:09 pm »
+2

I just discovered this thread (since I normally don't see any posts in this forum)

... lol
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #161 on: July 30, 2014, 08:06:37 pm »
+7

It's not this thread specifically that is the issue.  Eevee was saying that he thinks it reflects poorly on the f.ds that people are joking about Bomb (and the set and the guy behind it) all over the forum.  It's become a sort of f.ds inside joke a la Scout or Mint/Mine, but Eevee perceives it as mean-spirited rather than being just good fun. 

I understand his point.  On the other hand, the guy was kind of a jerk and it was pointed out that his behaviour has been just as ridiculous in other corners of the internet.  Even so, we could stand to tone down the jokes.

I agree with Eevee's perception, and I agree with this post. In my opinion, F.DS members and Theory acted correctly while the discussion was going on, but it is quite unseemly to keep this going. What is the point of mocking the person that started this, what does anybody stand to gain from it? It's been nearly a month since the ban, and I see no reason why this thread is still linked to from all over the Forum. Nothing good came out of it, nor do I think it will.
It would reflect better on us if the thread was locked, and if we kept jokes about bomb down to a minimum outside of it. This atmosphere is pretty much the opposite of the reason why I spend so much time logged in this site.

There, now you have my completely unasked-for opinion on the subject.
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jonts26

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2014, 08:11:23 pm »
+9

I'd really like pacovf's opinion on this subject.

EDIT: ninja'd by pacovf.
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #163 on: July 31, 2014, 01:38:44 am »
+9

This discussion is the Bomb.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2014, 03:54:58 pm »
+2

I just discovered this thread (since I normally don't see any posts in this forum)

... lol

I just discovered it too, about a month late.  I saw the topic all the time, but the cards in the OP just weren't interesting enough for me to read the ensuing discussion.
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GeoLib

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2014, 04:37:01 pm »
+1

I just discovered this thread (since I normally don't see any posts in this forum)

... lol

I just discovered it too, about a month late.  I saw the topic all the time, but the cards in the OP just weren't interesting enough for me to read the ensuing discussion.

This was exactly my reaction until someone linked it from another thread.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #166 on: January 14, 2016, 06:29:48 pm »
+2

I, for one, think Dominion: Gunpowder was a great idea.
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Grujah

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #167 on: January 14, 2016, 08:02:06 pm »
0

I, for one, think Dominion: Gunpowder was a great idea.

Damn, thanks for bumping this, re-reading this has made my day.
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #168 on: May 13, 2016, 07:04:58 pm »
+2

This is just such classic gold, f.ds memery at its finest.
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #169 on: May 13, 2016, 08:20:26 pm »
0

How was this never locked? I guess because only one person was the problem, so banning was fine?
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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2016, 08:24:17 pm »
+2

Just read this for the first time.  Wow.  Reminds me of this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/my-home-casino-22/
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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Gunpowder
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2016, 01:22:08 am »
0

How was this never locked? I guess because only one person was the problem, so banning was fine?

I mean, it was untouched for nearly 2 years. Will probably do the same after this short burst of activity. I remember being really confused by the whole thing.
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