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Author Topic: Really bad card ideas  (Read 1849723 times)

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Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3325 on: February 24, 2015, 02:48:10 pm »
+1

But... you guys keep using these numbers... like 99% and 95% and well, that isn't "strictly better".
Strictly better means no edge cases.

There was an argument that for a card to be "better" than another card, they have to be the same type.  Even though there are edge cases for everything, the type barrier isn't really as hard and limiting as it seems.  Copper is "just as much better" than Ruined Mine as Courtyard is better than Moat on a board with no Attack cards, even though both have edge cases.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3326 on: February 24, 2015, 02:49:52 pm »
0

But... you guys keep using these numbers... like 99% and 95% and well, that isn't "strictly better".
Strictly better means no edge cases.

Yeah, so what's the reason why cards can't be strictly better than other cards with no edge cases?
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Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3327 on: February 24, 2015, 02:51:50 pm »
+1

But... you guys keep using these numbers... like 99% and 95% and well, that isn't "strictly better".
Strictly better means no edge cases.

Yeah, so what's the reason why cards can't be strictly better than other cards with no edge cases?

Death
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Treasure

When you gain this card, you lose the game.

Edge Case:  KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade
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Deadlock39

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3328 on: February 24, 2015, 02:55:18 pm »
+1

I just said that cards can't be strictly better if they don't share the same type.  The reason they can't be strictly better is because there are lots of cards that care about type, so there are situations when you would, for example, prefer to have a Curse to a Copper.

It is possible there is a type pairing that doesn't actually matter, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3329 on: February 24, 2015, 03:02:28 pm »
+1

I just said that cards can't be strictly better if they don't share the same type.  The reason they can't be strictly better is because there are lots of cards that care about type, so there are situations when you would, for example, prefer to have a Curse to a Copper.

It is possible there is a type pairing that doesn't actually matter, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

If you're playing Cornucopia, then everything is automatically edge cased.  Type distinction doesn't even factor in here.

If we're going to bend the rules and say that anything is allowed to be better than anything else, then Silver Surfer is better than Silver and it's also better than Peddler.  Yes, Counterfeit and Graverobber are things, but those are two edge cases - one where Silver Surfer has the same type as the card being compared, and another with different type.

There are edge cases for everything.  The card type isn't the why there is or isn't.
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Awaclus

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3330 on: February 24, 2015, 03:04:21 pm »
0

I just said that cards can't be strictly better if they don't share the same type.  The reason they can't be strictly better is because there are lots of cards that care about type, so there are situations when you would, for example, prefer to have a Curse to a Copper.

It is possible there is a type pairing that doesn't actually matter, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

Oh, I was slightly misreading your posts then. What I was intending to ask you is: why is it bad that two cards that do share the same type are strictly inferior and superior to each other, respectively?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3331 on: February 24, 2015, 03:09:43 pm »
0

If you're playing Cornucopia, then everything is automatically edge cased.  Type distinction doesn't even factor in here.

If we're going to bend the rules and say that anything is allowed to be better than anything else, then Silver Surfer is better than Silver and it's also better than Peddler.  Yes, Counterfeit and Graverobber are things, but those are two edge cases - one where Silver Surfer has the same type as the card being compared, and another with different type.

There are edge cases for everything.  The card type isn't the why there is or isn't.

Perhaps I am misusing strictly better and I need to correct my definition, but to me it means better in all situations (Cornucopia not excluded).

I do not agree that Ruins/Curse/Copper are exempt from "strictly better"-ness, but I don't think it is worth arguing further about "Really bad card ideas"

If I am incorrect about what strictly better means to the forum at large I will modify my usage.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 03:14:09 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3332 on: February 24, 2015, 03:12:40 pm »
0

Oh, I was slightly misreading your posts then. What I was intending to ask you is: why is it bad that two cards that do share the same type are strictly inferior and superior to each other, respectively?

I don't think it is inherently bad.  The general bad thing is to make a card that is strictly better than another card at the same cost, which is where my original comment stemmed from.  However, it was a comment about "Really bad card ideas"/Ruins, so it was 99% a joke. (I mean, I said it should cost 1/2 of a coin)

Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3333 on: February 24, 2015, 03:16:59 pm »
+1

I agree that it's harder to compare cards of different types, but game balance depends on there being lots of tough decisions.  One isn't "better" than the other, but you have 7$ and two buys, and you have to make a decision.  The more often this is hard choice, the healthier the game is.  That's why we play Dominion.

I just don't think it's that hard to come up with RBCIs that cross type boundaries but are still "better" than each other for the vast majority of considerations.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3334 on: February 24, 2015, 03:20:34 pm »
+7

I believe not having another strictly better discussion is strictly better than having one.
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Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3335 on: February 24, 2015, 03:22:09 pm »
0

I believe not having another strictly better discussion is strictly better than having one.

Also, Possession.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3336 on: February 24, 2015, 03:46:56 pm »
+1

It doesn't have to be about card type. Consider a pretty definite hierarchy in several $0 cards: Copper > Abandoned Mine > Ruined Village > Curse. Two of them have their own card types, but Abandoned Mine and Ruined Village are the same. Sure, there can be advantages to any of these, but that level of edge case would never be considered enough to dispel a "strictly better/worse" problem between cards that would actually be bought. It's just a matter of that not mattering for cards that aren't meant to be good buys in normal circumstances, and instead find their ways into your deck through other means.

Edit: I have got to stop failing to notice when there's another page.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 05:40:15 pm by TheOthin »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3337 on: February 24, 2015, 05:25:36 pm »
+1

If you're playing Cornucopia, then everything is automatically edge cased.  Type distinction doesn't even factor in here.

If we're going to bend the rules and say that anything is allowed to be better than anything else, then Silver Surfer is better than Silver and it's also better than Peddler.  Yes, Counterfeit and Graverobber are things, but those are two edge cases - one where Silver Surfer has the same type as the card being compared, and another with different type.

There are edge cases for everything.  The card type isn't the why there is or isn't.

Perhaps I am misusing strictly better and I need to correct my definition, but to me it means better in all situations (Cornucopia not excluded).

I do not agree that Ruins/Curse/Copper are exempt from "strictly better"-ness, but I don't think it is worth arguing further about "Really bad card ideas"

If I am incorrect about what strictly better means to the forum at large I will modify my usage.

There are always edge cases though.  Suppose we have similar cards A and B, where A is better than B.  But is A strictly better than B?  Some universal edge cases include:

- Possession, which makes you prefer B for any hand where you get possessed.
- Menagerie and Horn of Plenty, which may make you prefer B if you already have an A in hand.
- Masquerade and Ambassador, where you may prefer having B to give away instead of A.

So the definition needs to omit those considerations, at least.  Some other things tend to be omitted as well.  For example, we would usually consider "+4 cards" to be a strictly superior effect compared to "+3 cards", even though the latter may be preferable for reshuffle considerations.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3338 on: February 25, 2015, 01:00:27 am »
+4

Strictly Better than Province
$7  Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction
+5 Cards. Discard half a card. +$4.73. +2 Buys. You may trash a card. If you do, the player to your right must eat the trashed card.
Each other player reveals their hand. If they reveal a province, they gain a curse.
You may have an off-topic debate about balance or whether all this text fits on a card (or about anything else for all I care).
-
When another player blinks, you may reveal this. If you do, +2 Cards. If you reveal this for a very short time just as the player is blinking and he doesn't see it, he will accuse you of cheating. Since you are right and he is wrong, you may gain a platinum.
-
Worth 6 VP
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 01:08:49 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3339 on: February 25, 2015, 05:43:05 am »
+5

It's Not Strictly Better Than Province
Action/Reaction
Cost: $2

+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1

If the player to your right gains Strictly Better Than Province, you may reveal this card.  If you do, that player trashes Strictly Better Than Province, along with their hand, deck, discard pile, and all cards in play.  This card is always in the supply whenever Strictly Better Than Province is in the supply no matter what anyone else says.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3340 on: February 25, 2015, 09:52:55 am »
+1

Strictly Better than Province
$7  Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction
+5 Cards. Discard half a card. +$4.73. +2 Buys. You may trash a card. If you do, the player to your right must eat the trashed card.
Each other player reveals their hand. If they reveal a province, they gain a curse.
You may have an off-topic debate about balance or whether all this text fits on a card (or about anything else for all I care).
-
When another player blinks, you may reveal this. If you do, +2 Cards. If you reveal this for a very short time just as the player is blinking and he doesn't see it, he will accuse you of cheating. Since you are right and he is wrong, you may gain a platinum.
-
Worth 6 VP

Not strictly better; the player to your right could be deathly allergic to the material used to create the cards, and you could get incarcerated for involuntary manslaughter.

Though, if your opponent dies, do you win?  I think the rulebook implies no, since there is no forfeit clause.
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Minotaur

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3341 on: February 25, 2015, 09:54:52 am »
+1

Strictly Better than Province
$7  Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction
+5 Cards. Discard half a card. +$4.73. +2 Buys. You may trash a card. If you do, the player to your right must eat the trashed card.
Each other player reveals their hand. If they reveal a province, they gain a curse.
You may have an off-topic debate about balance or whether all this text fits on a card (or about anything else for all I care).
-
When another player blinks, you may reveal this. If you do, +2 Cards. If you reveal this for a very short time just as the player is blinking and he doesn't see it, he will accuse you of cheating. Since you are right and he is wrong, you may gain a platinum.
-
Worth 6 VP

Not strictly better; the player to your right could be deathly allergic to the material used to create the cards, and you could get incarcerated for involuntary manslaughter.

Though, if your opponent dies, do you win?  I think the rulebook implies no, since there is no forfeit clause.

It is now open season for Jumanji RBCIs.
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pacovf

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3342 on: February 25, 2015, 10:05:44 am »
+2

Quote
Jumanji
Type: Action - Curse
Cost: $0
Set aside the player to your left. Put them back into play when there are four players.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3343 on: February 25, 2015, 12:52:15 pm »
+3

Strictly Better than Province
$7  Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction
+5 Cards. Discard half a card. +$4.73. +2 Buys. You may trash a card. If you do, the player to your right must eat the trashed card.
Each other player reveals their hand. If they reveal a province, they gain a curse.
You may have an off-topic debate about balance or whether all this text fits on a card (or about anything else for all I care).
-
When another player blinks, you may reveal this. If you do, +2 Cards. If you reveal this for a very short time just as the player is blinking and he doesn't see it, he will accuse you of cheating. Since you are right and he is wrong, you may gain a platinum.
-
Worth 6 VP

Edge case: Tournament.
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ashersky

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3344 on: February 25, 2015, 05:15:36 pm »
0

Strictly Better than Province
$7  Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction
+5 Cards. Discard half a card. +$4.73. +2 Buys. You may trash a card. If you do, the player to your right must eat the trashed card.
Each other player reveals their hand. If they reveal a province, they gain a curse.
You may have an off-topic debate about balance or whether all this text fits on a card (or about anything else for all I care).
-
When another player blinks, you may reveal this. If you do, +2 Cards. If you reveal this for a very short time just as the player is blinking and he doesn't see it, he will accuse you of cheating. Since you are right and he is wrong, you may gain a platinum.
-
Worth 6 VP

Edge case: Tournament.

Edge case: Explorer, need Gold to buy last Province.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3345 on: February 25, 2015, 05:26:09 pm »
0

Strictly Better than Province
$7  Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction
+5 Cards. Discard half a card. +$4.73. +2 Buys. You may trash a card. If you do, the player to your right must eat the trashed card.
Each other player reveals their hand. If they reveal a province, they gain a curse.
You may have an off-topic debate about balance or whether all this text fits on a card (or about anything else for all I care).
-
When another player blinks, you may reveal this. If you do, +2 Cards. If you reveal this for a very short time just as the player is blinking and he doesn't see it, he will accuse you of cheating. Since you are right and he is wrong, you may gain a platinum.
-
Worth 6 VP

Edge case: Tournament.

Edge case: Explorer, need Gold to buy last Province.

Really, there is no edge case. This card is actually worse than a curse, as you have to rip a card in half every time you play it "Discard half a card". It also causes game destruction if you trash a card with it. I also don't really like that it encourages debates (as we don't know how civil those debates will be) or that it encourages an action which will probably cause someone accuse you of cheating (which could easily start a not-at-all-civil arguement).
Besides, if you overlook the "discard half a card" and pass on arguing and actual eating of the cards, this card is better than tournament prizes, and could easily cause three piles to empty before the provinces are low. Who would buy provinces with this in the kingdom?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:27:31 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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sudgy

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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3346 on: February 25, 2015, 06:36:38 pm »
0

Actually, is other players revealing hands and for their Provinces gaining Curses a bad idea?  It might be an interesting new attack of some sort...
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3347 on: February 26, 2015, 04:42:03 am »
+4

Better than Strictly better than Province at being Strictly better than Province, $8, Victory
Worth 7 points
----
Whenever you want this to, it is Province.
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3348 on: February 27, 2015, 07:30:41 am »
0

Better than Strictly better than Province at being Strictly better than Province, $8, Victory
Worth 7 points
----
Whenever you want this to, it is Province.

Better than Better than Strictly better than Province at being Strictly Better than Province

$8, Victory
Worth 7 points
---

Whenever you want this to, it is a Province. You may trash this. If you do, gain a Province and +1 VP.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 07:31:56 am by Marcory »
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Re: Really bad card ideas
« Reply #3349 on: February 27, 2015, 08:01:15 am »
+1

Quote
Strictly better
Types: Whichever you want, whenever you want.
Cost: $8
You win forever!
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