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Author Topic: Best 30-of deck?  (Read 7484 times)

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Grujah

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2014, 10:56:08 pm »
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Ice Block seems pretty good against non-healing decks.

How? It loses to everything.
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2014, 11:14:17 pm »
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The Soulfire nerf definitely makes the metagame a lot more interesting.

I think the nerf must have been targeted at the 30-of metagame.
I don't think it even beats eye-for-an-eye anymore. There are more Silver Hand Recruits than Soulfires.

If you hoard them in hand the right way I lean towards Soulfire but it seems unclear without doing the calculations
In order to hoard them, you'd have to Tap while not using your Soulfires, but everytime you tap you lose 2 health. You can only use at most 5 Soulfires, 3 of which will activate Eye-for-an-Eye. the extra 2 Soulfires get cancelled out by your need to tap just to maintain the same hand size as laast turn, all the while there are Silver hand recruits that need to be addressed. The calculations are tricky.
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heron

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2014, 11:43:50 pm »
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Ice Block seems pretty good against non-healing decks.

How? It loses to everything.

Well you have to use hero power too.
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KingZog3

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2014, 12:32:56 am »
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Ice Block seems pretty good against non-healing decks.

How? It loses to everything.

Well you have to use hero power too.

You will lose to fatigue against every deck. You can only have 1 of each secret in play, so Ice Block protects you once, then the fatigue just kills you since you can't trigger ice block on your own turn.
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 01:23:54 pm »
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Ice Block seems pretty good against non-healing decks.

How? It loses to everything.

Well you have to use hero power too.

You will lose to fatigue against every deck. You can only have 1 of each secret in play, so Ice Block protects you once, then the fatigue just kills you since you can't trigger ice block on your own turn.
Riiight! So then Soulfire totally beats eye-for-an-eye. I was thinking you could have 3 stored at a time.
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Grujah

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2014, 02:26:18 pm »
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We really should to a play-by-forum Tournament in this.
Probably Round Robin, or play-offs I guess. Theoretical only, of course (everybody submits decks, we play them out in optimal scenarios (and you probably know what your opponent plays before the match)).

3 points of you win as both player as P1 and P2, 1 each if it is a tie. Some exceptions if neither can win somehow. (like 2-0, and 1-1).
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2014, 02:42:49 pm »
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We really should to a play-by-forum Tournament in this.
Probably Round Robin, or play-offs I guess. Theoretical only, of course (everybody submits decks, we play them out in optimal scenarios (and you probably know what your opponent plays before the match)).

3 points of you win as both player as P1 and P2, 1 each if it is a tie. Some exceptions if neither can win somehow. (like 2-0, and 1-1).
To get the best results out of such a tournament, we'd want to have more than one tournament. Like the iterated prisoner's dilemma, the 30-of deck format becomes really interesting if we allow the local meta to evolve.
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Grujah

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2014, 03:01:54 pm »
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2014, 05:35:55 pm »
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Of course.
Its kinda like MTG 4-Card Blind.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25627_Bringing-Theory-To-Your-Local-Gaming-Store-4-Card-Blind.html
Random effects always having the ideal result for your opponent is a good policy for this format as well. Applied to Unstable Portal, drawing Ancient Watcher should be ideal for your opponent pretty much all the time.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2014, 06:14:56 pm »
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Weird. I always knew that as three-card Magic.
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popsofctown

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2014, 02:58:58 pm »
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Does Soulfire beat 30 Mech mechwarper still? I'm not sure it does.
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2014, 04:45:59 pm »
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Does Soulfire beat 30 Mech mechwarper still? I'm not sure it does.
I think it loses against a Hunter with Mechwarpers. The question is, does ANYTHING beat Mechwarper?
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blueblimp

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2014, 07:22:45 pm »
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Mechwarper vs Unstable Ghoul is interesting. Card-wise, one ghoul trades with one warper, two warpers just barely beat two ghouls (with the remaining warper at 2/1), and three ghouls kill any number of warpers. Mana-wise, warpers cost 2 for 1 and 3 for any greater number, while ghouls cost 2 each. Ghouls have taunt, so the warper player can't always choose to hit face.

It's complex even without fully calculating. Suppose there's one ghoul out and as the warper player you have two on board. If you don't hit, the ghoul player can just sit back because your warpers won't do face damage the next turn. If you do hit with one warper, then the ghoul player can trade off the ghoul, then but down another, which will finish off the remaining warper.

I think the ghoul player would have advantage in a long game, but before turn 6 and especially before turn 4, the warper player's ability to spam might be usable to take a decisive life advantage.
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2014, 08:02:15 pm »
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Mechwarper vs Unstable Ghoul is interesting. Card-wise, one ghoul trades with one warper, two warpers just barely beat two ghouls (with the remaining warper at 2/1), and three ghouls kill any number of warpers. Mana-wise, warpers cost 2 for 1 and 3 for any greater number, while ghouls cost 2 each. Ghouls have taunt, so the warper player can't always choose to hit face.

It's complex even without fully calculating. Suppose there's one ghoul out and as the warper player you have two on board. If you don't hit, the ghoul player can just sit back because your warpers won't do face damage the next turn. If you do hit with one warper, then the ghoul player can trade off the ghoul, then but down another, which will finish off the remaining warper.

I think the ghoul player would have advantage in a long game, but before turn 6 and especially before turn 4, the warper player's ability to spam might be usable to take a decisive life advantage.
I thought about Unstable Ghoul, but I'm not sure about it. It's even more complex because Ghoul's deathrattle hurts other Ghouls.

And then what if the Mechwarper player is a Mage? and what of the Ghoul player's hero?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 08:03:27 pm by markusin »
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popsofctown

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2014, 09:00:17 pm »
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Mechwarper vs Unstable Ghoul is interesting. Card-wise, one ghoul trades with one warper, two warpers just barely beat two ghouls (with the remaining warper at 2/1), and three ghouls kill any number of warpers. Mana-wise, warpers cost 2 for 1 and 3 for any greater number, while ghouls cost 2 each. Ghouls have taunt, so the warper player can't always choose to hit face.

It's complex even without fully calculating. Suppose there's one ghoul out and as the warper player you have two on board. If you don't hit, the ghoul player can just sit back because your warpers won't do face damage the next turn. If you do hit with one warper, then the ghoul player can trade off the ghoul, then but down another, which will finish off the remaining warper.

I think the ghoul player would have advantage in a long game, but before turn 6 and especially before turn 4, the warper player's ability to spam might be usable to take a decisive life advantage.
I don't think the Unstable Ghoul player can win.  It seems like at best you take a huge bullrush at the start, then put the board into stasis after that then die first to fatigue due to the early burst phase.

It's a 1/3 with a symmetric effect versus a 2/3 with no symmetric effect, I don't see why unstable ghoul would beat crocolisk.
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blueblimp

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2014, 09:51:25 pm »
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Ghoul has taunt and takes two turns to die to a croc, killing the croc in the process. Meanwhile, the ghoul can hit face. That's why ghoul has a chance. Against croc, I'd think that ghoul always wins although I haven't worked it out, simply because I can't see how the croc player can ever hit face.
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popsofctown

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2014, 10:20:55 am »
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Ghoul has taunt and takes two turns to die to a croc, killing the croc in the process. Meanwhile, the ghoul can hit face. That's why ghoul has a chance. Against croc, I'd think that ghoul always wins although I haven't worked it out, simply because I can't see how the croc player can ever hit face.
But the croc can hit the ghoul once, then kill a totally unrelated ghoul, and the ghoul dies, but the croc lives.  It seems at least complicated to me.  And landslide for the Mechwarper.

The taunt is relevant, but the AoE 1 damage doesn't seem like it should really help much.  Anodized Robo Cup wins for sure.
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markusin

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2014, 10:38:13 am »
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Ghoul has taunt and takes two turns to die to a croc, killing the croc in the process. Meanwhile, the ghoul can hit face. That's why ghoul has a chance. Against croc, I'd think that ghoul always wins although I haven't worked it out, simply because I can't see how the croc player can ever hit face.
But the croc can hit the ghoul once, then kill a totally unrelated ghoul, and the ghoul dies, but the croc lives.  It seems at least complicated to me.  And landslide for the Mechwarper.

The taunt is relevant, but the AoE 1 damage doesn't seem like it should really help much.  Anodized Robo Cup wins for sure.
Against Mechwarper? I'm not so sure. Player 2 can flood the board with 6 Mechwarper by turn 2. Player 1 does it by turn 3. Maybe the cubs catch up in time?
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popsofctown

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2014, 02:29:49 pm »
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Ghoul has taunt and takes two turns to die to a croc, killing the croc in the process. Meanwhile, the ghoul can hit face. That's why ghoul has a chance. Against croc, I'd think that ghoul always wins although I haven't worked it out, simply because I can't see how the croc player can ever hit face.
But the croc can hit the ghoul once, then kill a totally unrelated ghoul, and the ghoul dies, but the croc lives.  It seems at least complicated to me.  And landslide for the Mechwarper.

The taunt is relevant, but the AoE 1 damage doesn't seem like it should really help much.  Anodized Robo Cup wins for sure.
Against Mechwarper? I'm not so sure. Player 2 can flood the board with 6 Mechwarper by turn 2. Player 1 does it by turn 3. Maybe the cubs catch up in time?
No i meant robo cub beats unstable
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ycz6

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2015, 12:36:50 am »
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Started thinking about this again today, and tried mapping out Mechwarper Warlock vs. Murloc Tidecaller Warlock.

Mechwarper wins easily as player 2, since it floods with 6 minions on turn 2 and can trade down before the Tidecaller gets enough damage in.

As player 1, if Tidecaller always taps and goes face, and Mechwarper trades and taps aggressively, then Mechwarper stabilizes on turn 5 with 2 health, and is able to beat down the Tidecaller before card advantage becomes a problem. I don't think there's a better strategy for either player.

The Tidecaller wins as Hunter, though, and Timber Wolf is equivalent. But Mechwarper Mage wins against that.
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ycz6

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2015, 01:58:31 am »
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As for new cards...

BRM: Quick Shot beats Mechwarper Mage but loses to Warlock and Hunter. Twilight Whelp looks promising, but is really just a worse Mechwarper.

Revenge is actually quite strong, as it can stack armor and clear the board against almost any small minion. The only problem is that if the opposing deck can reduce it to 14 or less health on turn 30, which Mechwarper can, then it will lose the fatigue war, even against Warlock.

TGT: Power Word: Glory, like most removal, beats small minions. Tournament Attendee does too. Flash Heal is usually weaker than Light of the Naaru. Brave Archer can do 26 damage on turn 4 as player 1, but is usually just a vanilla 2/1 as player 2.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:50:51 am by ycz6 »
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Haddock

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2015, 03:28:21 am »
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Murloc warleader?
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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KingZog3

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2015, 10:19:27 am »
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Murloc warleader?

Is it fast enough?
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popsofctown

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2015, 05:48:13 pm »
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Haddock

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Re: Best 30-of deck?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2015, 10:48:17 am »
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Yeah I figured it would be slow, but maybe JUST fast enough against normal decks. Havent done the maths against other thirty-of decks, hoped someone might do it for me.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87
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