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Author Topic: Hovel  (Read 22385 times)

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dondon151

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2014, 01:51:46 am »
+3

If wasting an early turn to trash old Hovel was worth it, doesn't that imply that wasting an early turn on Trade Route, which will trash more than 1 card? But Trade Route is considered a weak opening isn't it?

If you trash Hovel with a GH opening, it's an effective -1 card from the deck because GH is a cantrip. If you open Trade Route to trash, it's an effective +1 card to the deck until it trashes the first card.

A hand with a GH is effectively no different than a hand with 5 cards. A hand with Trade Route is a 3-card hand if you choose to trash.

(Edge cases, etc.)
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Davio

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2014, 03:42:05 am »
0

Great Hall, Conspirator could be a decent opening, you lose 1 blocker, get a cantrip and even have Necropolis around.
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Holger

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2014, 08:26:17 am »
0

Quote
Without using overpay, Doctor is very weak at $3 (or even $2), usually far weaker even than Lookout.
this isn't true, and lookout is a weird thing to compare it too because lookout isn't very weak. doctor is swingy, but it will still catch more than one card on average, so it will kill stuff faster than lookout does, but lookout prepares your next turn, and  it's non terminal.

3$ doctor is usually worse than chapel, usually a lot better than trade route. it's usually better than loan too.

Maybe I'm undervaluing $3 Doctor. But Doctor will usually only trash >1 card if you name Copper, and trashing Copper is much weaker than trashing Estates in the early game. And Doctor's trashing rapidly decreases to < 1 card per play, while Lookout and Trade Route are viable trashers for longer (especially with Ruins or Curses around). The extra Action (+sifting) or $ are also a big plus, which Doctor doesn't have. Usually I don't want to waste an action just to trash a single Copper, so Doctor becomes a dead card whenever it collides with other terminals in the early game.
(I compared it to Lookout because it has a reputation to be weak, but you're right that Lookout is not really weak. Still, I don't think I'd ever buy $3 Doctor over Lookout.)
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silverspawn

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2014, 10:48:33 am »
+1

If wasting an early turn to trash old Hovel was worth it, doesn't that imply that wasting an early turn on Trade Route, which will trash more than 1 card? But Trade Route is considered a weak opening isn't it?
I think the thing about hovel is what i posted earlier: if you trash it in t1/2 and buy a silver/terminal silver in t1/2, you have a guarantee to hit 5$ on turn 3/4. you don't get that with trade route. with trade route/silver (or curse/silver), you have just a 49.52% chance to hit 5$ (that's assuming that you don't play it when it keeps you from hitting 5$ (SCCCT), i just ran the simulation with an extra estate)

Awaclus

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2014, 01:12:27 pm »
+1

Maybe I'm undervaluing $3 Doctor. But Doctor will usually only trash >1 card if you know what to name,
FTFY
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silverspawn

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2014, 01:26:24 pm »
+2

dunno, it might still trash 3 coppers the first time you use it. it's not that unlikely. I think the thing with doctor, more than with other cards, is that people have very different ideas about its powerlevel, because it's just so swingy. you might have had a couple of bad games with it, and then stopped buying it for 3$, thus underestimating it now.

but it's not great for 3$. I usually don't like paying 4$ for doctor when opening 3/4$, because you make doctor miss the reshuffle and playing it early is so important with this card, but when there's lookout i might open lookout/doctor for 4$. both of these cards don't trash from your hand, so you should still be able to have enough buying power left to get silvers before your economy is trashed.

Davio

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2014, 08:06:33 am »
0

The problem I have with Doctor is that even if I do get some good initial trashing from it, the last cards I want to trash are in my hand and not in my deck, so it's worse than Chapel in this regard.

With Chapel, you can trash down very quickly and rebuild your deck very quickly (because you have no bad cards remaining).
With Doctor, both the trashing down and building up is a bit slower, since you can't trash down completely.
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Flip5ide

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2014, 05:10:08 am »
0

A hand with a GH is effectively no different than a hand with 5 cards. A hand with Trade Route is a 3-card hand if you choose to trash.

(Edge cases, etc.)

However I would argue that with cards like Lookout and Cartographer, GH is preferable, while in a game with Militia, GH is not.
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Polk5440

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2014, 06:33:23 pm »
+1

 
If wasting an early turn to trash old Hovel was worth it, doesn't that imply that wasting an early turn on Trade Route, which will trash more than 1 card? But Trade Route is considered a weak opening isn't it?

If you trash Hovel with a GH opening, it's an effective -1 card from the deck because GH is a cantrip. If you open Trade Route to trash, it's an effective +1 card to the deck until it trashes the first card.

A hand with a GH is effectively no different than a hand with 5 cards. A hand with Trade Route is a 3-card hand if you choose to trash.

(Edge cases, etc.)

Remember, you can still draw your great hall dead. Not exactly an edge case. Depends on the type of deck you build. So if I am going for a smithy-like deck that isn't likely going to be drawing everything, I almost always hold off on trashing the hovel until later.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2014, 06:58:18 pm »
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However I would argue that with cards like Lookout and Cartographer, GH is preferable, while in a game with Militia, GH is not.
Why would GH be preferable with Cartographer? You play Cartographer, it shows you 4 Great Halls, sounds like a nombo to me.
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Re: Hovel
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2014, 07:00:14 pm »
+3

However I would argue that with cards like Lookout and Cartographer, GH is preferable, while in a game with Militia, GH is not.
Why would GH be preferable with Cartographer? You play Cartographer, it shows you 4 Great Halls, sounds like a nombo to me.

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amalloy

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2014, 07:28:03 pm »
+2

However I would argue that with cards like Lookout and Cartographer, GH is preferable, while in a game with Militia, GH is not.
Why would GH be preferable with Cartographer? You play Cartographer, it shows you 4 Great Halls, sounds like a nombo to me.

If you have a Cartographer in hand, then having a Great Hall in hand is better than having whatever card you would have drawn instead of the Great Hall: it means you can choose from among four cards what to draw with your Great Hall. For a more concrete example: Cartographer and four Coppers with a Copper on top is a dead turn; but Cartographer, GH, and three Coppers can still kick off, even with two Coppers on top (that's the same five Coppers), because Cartographer can rearrange the deck and drop the excess Copper so you didn't have to draw it.
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Flip5ide

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2014, 05:52:39 am »
+1

So are we approaching consensus that a 5/2 estate is going to negatively affect you? Might as well trash 2 Estates with all 3 and a chapel in hand if you disagree. You know, for the +1 VP.
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ehunt

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2014, 07:12:07 am »
+1

So are we approaching consensus that a 5/2 estate is going to negatively affect you? Might as well trash 2 Estates with all 3 and a chapel in hand if you disagree. You know, for the +1 VP.

Definitely -- I think that's been consensus for a long time (It's sort of like throning a nobles when you don't have any actions in hand and taking the actions before the cards -- if you think it's right, you should think harder. Admittedly, it's a little vaguer than that example -- it's more like drawing a chapel with an estate around turn 8 than around turn 4.)

EDIT: I found the old thread where this was debated at end --
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4508.0
There are some important edge cases that show up in that thread (for instance, apprentice/estate doesn't seem like a terrible opening on a hovel board) but the general idea is clear.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 07:37:10 am by ehunt »
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Gherald

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2014, 06:08:45 pm »
0

In addition to other TfB's like Bishop -- Ironmonger and Crossroads are a couple other cards that like buying an Estate with $2+hovel.  If those are for sure going to be in your deck, you should buy the estate.

Another situation that likes the estate is a game with no +buy nor VP tokens, where that 1 VP estate can be the tiebreaker.
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amalloy

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2014, 06:13:14 pm »
0

Another situation that likes the estate is a game with no +buy nor VP tokens, where that 1 VP estate can be the tiebreaker.

Certainly that can happen, but in games like that (which sounds largely like BM+X), it can often help just as much to keep the Hovel, so that an early Province doesn't take up space in your deck. You lose the 1VP, but you get a better shot at continuing to buy the big cards later. That extra Estate can be the key difference between $7 and $8, once you've started greening.
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Gherald

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2014, 07:01:45 pm »
0

I don't think it can "often" help just as much.  At least not "often" enough for not buying the estate to be the correct decision.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2014, 07:08:42 pm »
+2

I don't think it can "often" help just as much.  At least not "often" enough for not buying the estate to be the correct decision.

In such a game, would you accept a free trash of an Estate in the mid game when you buy your first Province?  I think I would most of the time.  Or on the other hand, would you want to gain a free Estate?  I probably would not.
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Gherald

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2014, 08:49:35 pm »
0

That assumes Hovel would be in hand when you gain the first province

I'll take the free estate and its tiebreaking benefit over the chance of that both:

(1) happening and (2) making the difference on getting $8 enough for me to win the province split 5-3 or not lose it 3-5
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 08:54:46 pm by Gherald »
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liopoil

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2014, 09:14:33 pm »
0

It's not too common in BM games to get a province with hovel in hand, especially not for the first one. If you have hovel in hand, chances are a lot less that you have a province hand.
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dondon151

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2014, 09:24:28 pm »
0

Yes, but you could still be in greening mode and have enough in hand for a Duchy.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2014, 09:32:17 pm »
+1

It's not too common in BM games to get a province with hovel in hand, especially not for the first one. If you have hovel in hand, chances are a lot less that you have a province hand.

I don't think it's that uncommon.  There's also Duchy or alt VP buying as well.

It really probably doesn't matter most of the time, but I'd expect not having the extra Estate to be better most of the time.  Think about when you start actually buying Estates in a BM strategy.  Very late, if at all.  Trashing Hovel for Estate is like choosing to gain an extra Estate in the mid-game.  When you have a spare +Buy and $2, do you pick up extra Estates that early?



Somebody should just simulate it...
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liopoil

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2014, 09:36:10 pm »
+1

If it's by the time you're buying duchies, you're would have seen that hovel at most one more time.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2014, 10:03:49 pm »
0

If it's by the time you're buying duchies, you're would have seen that hovel at most one more time.

Alternatively, you could skip the extra Estate and get a Duchy a little earlier.  And there's still the possibility of trashing it to a Province, which is not uncommon IMO.  Even if you would have only seen that Hovel one more time, that one time could mean the difference between a Province/Duchy or not.
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Holger

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Re: Hovel
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2014, 06:38:46 am »
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If it's by the time you're buying duchies, you're would have seen that hovel at most one more time.

Alternatively, you could skip the extra Estate and get a Duchy a little earlier.  And there's still the possibility of trashing it to a Province, which is not uncommon IMO.  Even if you would have only seen that Hovel one more time, that one time could mean the difference between a Province/Duchy or not.

Yes, usually you expect to get at least ~$1.5 per card in the late game, which on average gives you a little more than 1 VP. I would usually buy a Duchy with Hovel in hand from about the time I start buying Provinces, and an Estate only when I may not draw it again. But it seems to be a surprisingly narrow decision, unless there's hybrid victory cards around.
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