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Author Topic: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.  (Read 5672 times)

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GendoIkari

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Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« on: December 08, 2011, 01:36:44 pm »
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So we all know now how you can successfully play 2 Tacticians in a turn so that next turn you'll get +10 cards, +2 actions, and +2 buys. So, can you find a way to play 3? And then, what's the most you can play on one turn? Can you play all 10, for +50 cards, + 10 actions, and + 10 buys on your next turn?

Part 2:

Perhaps drawing 50 cards just isn't enough, so lets play other durations to add to it. What is the most number of cards you can start your turn with (after you draw from durations)?

A) Solitaire game
B) With help from opponents
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:57:55 pm by GendoIkari »
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dondon151

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 01:47:44 pm »
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I'm going to assume that part 2 involves a lot of KC - Governors and KC - Council Rooms on top of the Durations.
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theory

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 01:50:32 pm »
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Part 1: Doesn't seem hard, since you just keep chaining Golem/Tactician/Lab.  Golem into a Tactician and Lab, play Tactician, play Lab, drawing another Golem, which Golems into a Tactician and Lab, etc.

Part 2: Tactician trick above nets you +50 cards.  10 KC'd Wharves add 60 cards.  10 Throned Caravans add 20 cards.  Havens add another 10 cards. 

With opponents, you can have a nested sequence of Possessions whereby they keep possessing each other while playing each of their 5 Council Rooms and 5 Governors each turn.  E.g., A plays 5 CR's, then plays Possession.  A (playing B's deck) plays 5 CR's, then Possession.  B (playing A's deck) plays 5 CR's, then Possession.  This leads to an infinite number of plays between them.  Or am I mistaken?

Throw in KC KC Possession Possession Possession for even more craziness.
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rod-

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 01:53:24 pm »
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Theory's numbers are a bit off, as he's forgetting that the game still ends when 3 piles are empty:)
but 10 isnt much different from 9 and is easier on the eyes.
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theory

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 01:54:31 pm »
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Theory's numbers are a bit off, as he's forgetting that the game still ends when 3 piles are empty:)
but 10 isnt much different from 9 and is easier on the eyes.
Ah, that's right.  You know what I mean, though!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 02:06:02 pm »
+1

I'm confused by this:
With opponents, you can have a nested sequence of Possessions whereby they keep possessing each other while playing each of their 5 Council Rooms and 5 Governors each turn.  E.g., A plays 5 CR's, then plays Possession.  A (playing B's deck) plays 5 CR's, then Possession.  B (playing A's deck) plays 5 CR's, then Possession.  This leads to an infinite number of plays between them.  Or am I mistaken?

You can only possess the person to your left, so your opponents cannot possess each other. I think the best you can do is have one possess the other 30 times (via mass KCs) and play 9-10 governors and 9-10 council rooms and 9-10 torturers (for which you reveal horse traders and gain curses in hand) each time.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 02:08:51 pm »
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I'm going to assume that part 2 involves a lot of KC - Governors and KC - Council Rooms on top of the Durations.

The problem with that is you want to save the KC for your own durations. But Governor and Council room, definitely.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 02:11:35 pm »
+1

I'm confused by this:
With opponents, you can have a nested sequence of Possessions whereby they keep possessing each other while playing each of their 5 Council Rooms and 5 Governors each turn.  E.g., A plays 5 CR's, then plays Possession.  A (playing B's deck) plays 5 CR's, then Possession.  B (playing A's deck) plays 5 CR's, then Possession.  This leads to an infinite number of plays between them.  Or am I mistaken?

You can only possess the person to your left, so your opponents cannot possess each other. I think the best you can do is have one possess the other 30 times (via mass KCs) and play 9-10 governors and 9-10 council rooms and 9-10 torturers (for which you reveal horse traders and gain curses in hand) each time.

Ooh, I hadn't thought of Torturers! There's another 30 cards you could have (assume 4 player; all 30 Curses). So it seems like Kings Court are best left for your opponent's possessions, instead of your own Durations then.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 02:43:22 pm »
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Potential answer to part 2:

4 player game, you are player D. Player B plays 30 Possessions with KC -> KC -> KC -> Possession.

This can be done with 6 Kings Courts and 10 Possessions (I wasn't able to do it with only 5 KC)... leaving 4 Kings Courts in Player C's Deck. On each of Player C's 31 turns (30 possessed, 1 normal), he plays KC -> KC -> Gov, Gov, Gov, KC -> KC -> Gov, Gov, Gov. Throne Room to play the last 3 Governors twice each (1 left in supply). 6 Thrones left. 6 Council Rooms played twice each, 3 more played once each (1 left in supply). Then plays 9 Torturers. (Which you respond to with 9 Horse Traders). If you have 29 curses, then your opponent stops playing Torturers.

So...

6 KC Gov + 3 TR Gov = 24 cards.
6 TR CR + 3 CR = 15 cards.

39 cards per turn. Times 31 turns = 1209 cards.

Assume you had 9 of each of the durations, so only 2 piles are empty.

1209 + 29 from curses + 5 from start hand + 18 from Wharf + 9 from Caravan + 9 from Haven + 9 from Horse Traders  + 45 from Tactician trick = 1333 cards in hand at the start of your turn.

I believe this empties only the Kings Court and the Possession piles.

Of course... if you had that many cards in your deck, the game would have to be over by 3-piles anyway.


« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:52:42 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 02:56:49 pm »
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Ok, I just thought of something that could increase my answer by a whole bunch:

Player A does the above trick, but during B's last possessed turn, B plays a bunch of Masquerades. Player A passes Possessions and Kings courts to Player B. Then, on player B's regular turn, he can play a bunch of KC'd Possessions as well. Since Player B would have to have all the Council Rooms and Governors, they would need to be Masqueraded around as well to get to Player C. But I think this could technically work. I don't think that player B could Possess C quite as many times as A possessed B, and C couldn't help you as much on his turns as B did, but it would add some.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 03:06:59 pm »
+1

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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Unlimited Tacticians
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2011, 03:08:21 pm »
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While all that is going on, wouldn't the heat death of the universe occur before you took your turn? 

There might be minor tweaks to your solution to get a few more here or there (you can keep more KC's in your deck I think if you start the KC-Possession chain, possibly play an outpost - where you fire off a bunch of KC'd Wharfs, and then fire off the golem trick)

I think actual answer is going to be equivalent to this question: What is the maximum number of cards you can have in your deck?  I suspect that if you leave one opponent with a deck of KCx2 + CouncilRoomx3 (set up via masquerade), then you can KC possess him 30 times, and he can make you draw 270 cards.  I don't have the counts of treasures handy, nor the exact count on the maximum theoretical black market, but you're probably pretty close to being able to draw everything you could have without the game ending on piles... if it isn't enough... give the opponent some extra KC / Throne room / Governor until it works.




Potential answer to part 2:

4 player game, you are player D. Player B plays 30 Possessions with KC -> KC -> KC -> Possession.

This can be done with 6 Kings Courts and 10 Possessions (I wasn't able to do it with only 5 KC)... leaving 4 Kings Courts in Player C's Deck. On each of Player C's 31 turns (30 possessed, 1 normal), he plays KC -> KC -> Gov, Gov, Gov, KC -> KC -> Gov, Gov, Gov. Throne Room to play the last 3 Governors twice each (1 left in supply). 6 Thrones left. 6 Council Rooms played twice each, 3 more played once each (1 left in supply). Then plays 9 Torturers. (Which you respond to with 9 Horse Traders). If you have 29 curses, then your opponent stops playing Torturers.

So...

6 KC Gov + 3 TR Gov = 24 cards.
6 TR CR + 3 CR = 15 cards.

39 cards per turn. Times 31 turns = 1209 cards.

Assume you had 9 of each of the durations, so only 2 piles are empty.

1209 + 29 from curses + 5 from start hand + 18 from Wharf + 9 from Caravan + 9 from Haven + 9 from Horse Traders  + 45 from Tactician trick = 1333 cards in hand at the start of your turn.

I believe this empties only the Kings Court and the Possession piles.

Of course... if you had that many cards in your deck, the game would have to be over by 3-piles anyway.



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GendoIkari

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2011, 03:23:58 pm »
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relevant

Man, I never thought of Outpost. I think you could pull of 60 Possessions instead of 30, which would double the number from your opponents.
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popsofctown

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2011, 04:03:36 pm »
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I'm thinking, Golem hitting a Tactician followed by a Library or Watchtower ten times.  That empties the Golem stack and Tactician stack both leaving 18 kcs from Throne room and kc, so that 9 triple wharfs and 9 triple caravans.  Then we can Haven away 9 cards.  Then I think that's all seaside has to offer us unless Horse Traders get's involved but I only feel like doing part A.

5 defaults +5*10 tactician + 9*2*3 KC Wharfs + 9*1*2 KC Caravans + 9 Havens is
55+54+18+9
109+27
136 cards in your opening without help from your opponent.

Did I do it right?
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jimjam

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 11:03:46 pm »
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Theory is essentially correct: You can get infinite with a single Possession, Council Room, Throne Room, and enough Masquerades. Pass them around as you play, and TR the Possession, doubling the amount of turns spent on the next player.
But if you're playing against one other accomplice you can get over 3000 cards in hand without passing the Possessions.


It involves several tricks: KC on a lot of things, Possession, Outpost, Council Rooms are the big ones, since you get 62 turns to get 30 cards each time. The first turn is possessed, and includes an outpost play, then the outpost turn occurs, then the 59 other possessions, then the normal turn.
 To get another fraction one can use Torturers, then masquerade the curses back, then ambassador/moat them back into the pile. This takes 5 cards to increase the hand by 2, and I think with the remaining KC/TR you can net about 20 a turn this way.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:13:07 pm by jimjam »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 10:35:18 am »
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Theory is essentially correct: You can get infinite with a single Possession, Council Room, Throne Room, and enough Masquerades. Pass them around as you play, and TR the Possession, doubling the amount of turns spent on the next player.
But if you're playing against one other accomplice you can get over 3000 cards in hand without passing the Possessions.


It involves several tricks: KC on a lot of things, Possession, Outpost, Council Rooms are the big ones, since you get 62 turns to get 30 cards each time. The first turn is possessed, and includes an outpost play, then the outpost turn occurs, then the 59 other possessions, then the normal turn.
 To get another fraction one can use Torturers, then masquerade the curses back, then ambassador/moat them back into the pile. This takes 5 cards to increase the hand by 2, and I think with the remaining KC/TR you can net about 20 a turn this way.


I'm not getting the infinite Possession thing. I see using Masquerade to pass Possessions around, but play has to proceed clockwise. Eventually, you will be the player being Possessed, and as soon as you are, your giant hand is used and then discarded.
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biopower

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 10:46:33 am »
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I'm not getting the infinite Possession thing. I see using Masquerade to pass Possessions around, but play has to proceed clockwise. Eventually, you will be the player being Possessed, and as soon as you are, your giant hand is used and then discarded.

Think about it this way: In 2P, you play a KC + Possession, letting you play the opponent's hand 3 times.  In each of your opponent's hands (and his own turn), you draw a KC + Possession, which lets your opponent play your own hand 12 times. Your opponent then plays a KC + Possession during each of your own possessed turns, giving you 39 possessed turns. As you might notice, this grows exponentially, so you can theoretically play your opponent's hand any number of times. Simply start playing KC + KC + Council Room x3 to build your own hand on each of your opponent's possession turns.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Largest possible starting hand / unlimited Tacticians.
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 11:44:13 am »
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Got it, thanks!
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