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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.1: Introduction and meta-discussion  (Read 50544 times)

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Qvist

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+2

Hello folks,

inspired by the discussion on the Top 5 lists and the ranking of the $2 cards, I thought it would be nice to have a list, compiled by the votes of each one of you, so we get a balanced list. I don't know if anyone or that many of you are interested in this. But as I saw how much posted their ranking of the $2 cards after my post that quickly, I'll give it a try.

How will this work?
I think I will do 2 list contests. Before I open a second thread, I want to see how well the feedback is.
The first list will be one like theory wants to compile: The best cards of each price level.
I think it will be interesting to see if the community has the same opinion.
This list shouldn't be viewed as a replacement of theory's list. He's a very experienced player and his lists a very informative.
You should see it as an addition.
The second list is a big one: The favourite cards.
I know there are several threads and discussions, but there are no compiled lists.
You can rank the cards, based on whatever you like: strength/weakness, originality in design, fun and "no-fun" factor, whatever.

What do you have to do?
If you like to contribute, send me a PM for one or the other list (or both).
Cards are only counted if they are kingdom cards, so no Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Potion, Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Curse and Prize Cards are allowed.
Just arrange the cards for your ranking with the best/favourite card going first and the worst/least favourite on the last position.
For reference: 157 cards should be in your Favourite card list and the Best card list is subdivided into several lists, containing:
16 $2 cards, 26 $3 cards, 43 $4 cards, 48 $5 cards, 14 >$6 cards, 10 Potion cards = 157
I don't make a difference between attack or non-attack cards, so put them togehter in one list as I can easily divide it later if it seems reasonable.
The criteria for the Potion cost cards IMHO should be: How often will I buy at least one Potion if this card is in the supply? But you can rank them in which order you like. We'll see what the result will be.

Card List:
Code: [Select]
16 $2 cards
Cellar
Chapel
Moat
Courtyard
Pawn
Secret Chamber
Embargo
Haven
Lighthouse
Native Village
Pearl Diver
Herbalist
Hamlet
Crossroads
Duchess
Fool's Gold

26 $3 cards
Chancellor
Village
Woodcutter
Workshop
Great Hall
Masquerade
Shanty Town
Steward
Swindler
Wishing Well
Ambassador
Fishing Village
Lookout
Smugglers
Warehouse
Loan
Trade Route
Watchtower
Fortune Teller
Menagerie
Develop
Oasis
Oracle
Scheme
Tunnel
Black Market

43 $4 cards
Bureaucrat
Feast
Gardens
Militia
Moneylender
Remodel
Smithy
Spy
Thief
Throne Room
Baron
Bridge
Conspirator
Coppersmith
Ironworks
Mining Village
Scout
Caravan
Cutpurse
Island
Navigator
Pirate Ship
Salvager
Sea Hag
Treasure Map
Bishop
Monument
Quarry
Talisman
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Horse Traders
Remake
Tournament
Young Witch
Jack of all Trades
Noble Brigand
Nomad Camp
Silk Road
Spice Merchant
Trader
Envoy
Walled Village

48 $5 cards
Council Room
Festival
Laboratory
Library
Market
Mine
Witch
Duke
Minion
Saboteur
Torturer
Trading Post
Tribute
Upgrade
Bazaar
Explorer
Ghost Ship
Merchant Ship
Outpost
Tactician
Treasury
Wharf
Apprentice
City
Contraband
Counting House
Mint
Mountebank
Rabble
Royal Seal
Vault
Venture
Harvest
Horn of Plenty
Hunting Party
Jester
Cache
Cartographer
Embassy
Haggler
Highway
Ill-Gotten Gains
Inn
Mandarin
Margrave
Stables
Governor
Stash

14 >$6 cards
Adventurer
Harem
Nobles
Goons
Grand Market
Hoard
Fairgrounds
Border Village
Farmland
Bank
Expand
Forge
King's Court
Peddler

10 Potion cards
Transmute
Vineyard
Apothecary
Scrying Pool
University
Alchemist
Familiar
Philosopher's Stone
Golem
Possession

For the best card list, I will add a variant of theory's disclaimer:
This list should cause discussion not hassle. Of course it's difficult to compare some of the cards because pretty much every card has some situations where it shines and situations where it doesn't.
This isn't a scientific list, just a compiled list of the community's opinion of the best cards.

What else?
Submission deadline will be the 31st of December 11:59pm UTC.
Each card will get points based on the rank. So your favourite card gets 157 points and your least favourite gets 1 point. This will result in a compiled list of all of your lists.
Then I will post daily the rankings from worst to best to raise the tension (maybe 5 cards per day).
I will also add some statistic data like "Saboteur #11, highest rank #1 (2 times), lowest rank #98, standard deviation: 10.23"
Based on the data, I will make a list to compare the expansions too.
And I will add some comments to each card, e.g. why I think it ranked there where it ranked. So if you have time, you can also add in your list some comments to some cards, explaining why you put it there in your list.

So, tell me if it's a good idea and if you want to contribute. Originally I wanted to wait until all expansions are out. But we can do it again then and compare the lists.

Edit: You can use these online surveys too:
Best Cards
Favourite Cards
Please be sure that you put each card in order on the right and don't miss any.
The best/favourite card goes on top.
If you have already submitted, you don't have to take the survey.
And if you don't like that survey, you can still PM me.

Results:
$2 cards
$3 cards (Part 1)
$3 cards (Part 2)
$4 cards (Part 1)
$4 cards (Part 2)
$4 cards (Part 3)
$5 cards (Part 1)
$5 cards (Part 2)
$5 cards (Part 3)
$5 cards (Part 4)
$6+ cards
Potion cost cards

Favourite cards
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 07:20:01 am by Qvist »
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DStu

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THE Dominion Card List(s): Meta-discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 07:13:04 am »
0

Editor's note: This is the thread for discussion about how the Dominion Card Lists should be run, not discussion about the cards or the contents of the lists themselves.

Quote
Cards are only counted if they are in the supply, so no Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Potion, Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Curse and Prize Cards are allowed.
afaik everthing there except Prizes belongs to the supply...

Quote
Submission deadline will be the 31st of December 11:59pm.
time zone?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 01:59:04 pm by rrenaud »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 07:15:53 am »
0

Quote
Cards are only counted if they are in the supply kingdom cards, so no Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Potion, Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Curse and Prize Cards are allowed.
afaik everthing there except Prizes belongs to the supply...

Sorted.

I'll probably do this just because writing lists is fun and I've got nothing better to do. I'll probably miss cards though. Is there a list of all current Dominion cards sorted by price anywhere for reference?
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 07:17:36 am »
0

Quote
Cards are only counted if they are in the supply, so no Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Potion, Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Curse and Prize Cards are allowed.
afaik everthing there except Prizes belongs to the supply...

Quote
Submission deadline will be the 31st of December 11:59pm.
time zone?

That was a typo. I think it should read Kingdom cards, right?
I always forget the timezone. Best would be UTC I think.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 07:22:52 am »
0

Quote
Cards are only counted if they are in the supply kingdom cards, so no Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Potion, Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Curse and Prize Cards are allowed.
afaik everthing there except Prizes belongs to the supply...

Sorted.

I'll probably do this just because writing lists is fun and I've got nothing better to do. I'll probably miss cards though. Is there a list of all current Dominion cards sorted by price anywhere for reference?

I added a list. You can also look here: http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/?set=All&f=list
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Buggz

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 07:31:03 am »
0

How about any timezone? When no place on earth counts 31st of december, deadline has passed for certain.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 07:34:28 am »
+1

I'm pretty sure the exact deadline isn't going to matter. Anybody who wants to do this won't be leaving it until the countdown to new year...
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 08:40:10 am »
0

I tried making that the implied message of my post.  :)
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Graystripe77

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 08:54:38 am »
0

What about another list, 'best combos list'?
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 09:49:39 am »
0

What about another list, 'best combos list'?

I think 2 lists with each having 157 entries are more than enough for the start.
And a combos list would make everything more complicated. Either everyone has to rank all 12403 possible 2-card-combinations (if I counted right), so that would be no fun. So we have to either make a voting or precompile a list of combos we can then rank.
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Tables

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 09:08:38 am »
0

Oh man. Rating 157 cards in order of how fun they are is no small task, you know... Perhaps it would be better to have a small rating system, say a rating of 1-5 (integer) for each card, so people can rate their cards somewhat accurately and much more quickly.

As for the best to worst lists, they're probably managable.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 04:51:02 pm »
0

Yeah, I know.
But I thought that might be fun too. And if you aren't sure where to put a card, it doesn't really matter if you put it at #62 or at #63 in the end.
We'll see. I let it run at least a week. If I got few lists I might make it easier with a rating system as you suggested.
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vidicate

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 08:46:52 pm »
0

Either everyone has to rank all 12403 possible 2-card-combinations (if I counted right)...
157*156/2 = 12246.
Shown here, and also calculated the long way. I am very much a math geek. ;D
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 01:56:39 am »
0

Sounds fun. I'll put together my "Best" lists when I have time.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 02:57:51 am »
+1

Either everyone has to rank all 12403 possible 2-card-combinations (if I counted right)...
157*156/2 = 12246.
Shown here, and also calculated the long way. I am very much a math geek. ;D

I counted in my head. Considerung this: Not so bad.

PS: I received my first two lists. Very interesting positions. I'm looking forward for more.
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werothegreat

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2011, 12:54:29 pm »
0

Hmm.  I'm just going to do the best from cost 2-5 from each of the sets I own.

Base:
$2 - Chapel - obviously.
$3 - Village - more useful than the other three, which can be more powerful, but only in specific situations (Workshop with Gardens, Woodcutter when there are no other +Buys, etc)
$4 - Moneylender/Throne Room - Smithy close second - there's quite a lot of $4 from this set, but Moneylender is able to boost you up from the Copper doldrums so efficiently.  Given that it becomes almost useless in late game (unless you have a Remodel or Remodel variant), I tie this with Throne Room, which is amazing in late game, though rather useless early game.  Anyone who buys a Throne Room first is an idiot.  The reason why Smithy is not at the top in my opinion is the lack of +Action.  Smithy either needs to be couple with Big Money or lots of +2 Actions cards to be useful, though it becomes very useful in those situations.
$5 - Laboratory - Witch/Mine in second - I don't think I need to justify Laboratory.  Witch and Mine are both cards you have to get early, the Mine because you want to start ramping up money as early and often as possible, and the Witch because you want to screw your opponents deck before they can screw yours, and before the Curses run out.  But both are extremely powerful cards, though neither can quite top Laboratory.

Intrigue:
$2 - Meh?  These are really all well-priced - they're shitty cards.  They do something decently, but you'd rather have something more expensive.  Please feel free to disagree.
$3 - Steward/Masquerade - Steward is delightfully versatile, able to function as a Chapel early game, or as a drawer/coin-provider in mid- or late game (provided you have +Actions).  And Masquerade can fuel a host of nasty tactics when played correctly.
$4 - Bridge - I don't think I need to say anything for this.
$5 - This one's a toughie.  While I recognize Minion is probably most powerful, I really, really like Trading Post.  It sort of neatly combines what I like about Chapel and Mine, though you may want to couple it with a Mine or Remodel for late game.
$6 - Harem - duh.

Alchemy:
Here's where it gets interesting.  I'm not sure how you want to handle Potion cards.  Herbalist and Apprentice are both great cards for their price.  Herbalist combined with Alchemist is a rather obvious combination, but it has its uses elsewhere.  But the Potion cards are all just so powerful, and there's only one or two at each of their "prices," so there's no real point in discussing this?  They're all good cards (except maybe Transmute), just hard to get to.

Prosperity:
$3 - Watchtower - I've never liked Trade Route - it's too slow, and it mandates that you trash.  And I'm still not quite sold on Loan - there are other, more effective ways of doing what it does.
$4 - Bishop - if you've ever played with Bishop on isotropic, and you let your opponent get most of them, you know why I'm saying this.
$5 - Mountebank/Vault - Rabble in second - Getting Mountebanks early can screw your opponents deck massively.  And if you get a 5/2 split, buying Vault ensures you will have a Grand Market between your first and second shuffle.  Vault's +2 Cards solves pretty much everything that sucked about Secret Chamber's action.  Rabble is more subtle.  +3 Cards is always great, but being able to make sure your opponent never gets to play his Grand Market or King's Court is very, very satisfying.  City, you say?  Sure, but you need to buy, let's see, ALL OF THEM for them to be useful.
$6 - Grand Market.  Sure, Goons means you don't need to buy Provinces or Colonies, but Grand Market means you can buy more than one every turn.
$7 - King's Court - need I say more?
Stop looking at me like that, Peddler!  You're the only one of your cost!

I recently got Seaside, but I don't think I've played it enough to judge the cards effectively.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2011, 01:49:33 pm »
+3

Intrigue:
$2 - Meh?  These are really all well-priced - they're shitty cards.  They do something decently, but you'd rather have something more expensive.  Please feel free to disagree.

You take that back about Courtyard!

Courtyard is by no means a shitty card, and there are lots of engines where you would rather have it than Silver.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2011, 02:33:12 pm »
0

Intrigue:
$2 - Meh?  These are really all well-priced - they're shitty cards.  They do something decently, but you'd rather have something more expensive.  Please feel free to disagree.

You take that back about Courtyard!

Courtyard is by no means a shitty card, and there are lots of engines where you would rather have it than Silver.

I'll grant you that, but I'd rather have a Smithy or a Laboratory.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2011, 02:58:09 pm »
0

Intrigue:
$2 - Meh?  These are really all well-priced - they're shitty cards.  They do something decently, but you'd rather have something more expensive.  Please feel free to disagree.

You take that back about Courtyard!

Courtyard is by no means a shitty card, and there are lots of engines where you would rather have it than Silver.

I'll grant you that, but I'd rather have a Smithy or a Laboratory.
I find that courtyard is very very often superior to smithy.
Even disregarding the cost difference.

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2011, 08:07:38 pm »
+4

Instead of making every make a fully ordered list of 157 cards, you should set up a facemash-like thing, where you show us 2 cards at a time and we click the one that we like better. Then maintain an ELO for each card and generate a ranking :)
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 09:31:36 pm »
+1

I'll grant you that, but I'd rather have a Smithy or a Laboratory.

Yeah, I would, too. But Smithy costs $4 and Lab costs $5, and very often I'd rather have a Courtyard over a Smithy. I disagree strongly with your opinion of Intrigue $2 cost cards because Courtyard is strong in a lot of kingdoms and Pawn is both versatile and usually non-inhibitory.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 07:32:08 am »
0

Instead of making every make a fully ordered list of 157 cards, you should set up a facemash-like thing, where you show us 2 cards at a time and we click the one that we like better. Then maintain an ELO for each card and generate a ranking :)

Yeah, that would be best. But I don't have the time to code it. I know Zuckerberg made it in one night. Ok, let's say it like that: I don't want to code it.
And I still think 157 entries are not that much that someone isn't able to compile a list (or two lists).
If it were 1000 cards, your suggestion would be clearly a better alternative.

A small update to all of you: Already got 5 lists. Very interesting to see similarities and differences.
It seems that the $4 cost list is the most difficult as it has high variance.

Some notes regarding the "Best Card List":
Ask yourself "What card would I prefer buying most of the times?" or in the sense of HiveMindEmulator's suggestion, consider two cards and ask "If those 2 cards are in the supply which card would I buy most of the times?" Also it seems that cards that are strong openers and are otherwise mediocre have the highest variance. I don't know how to deal with that. Maybe you can ask yourself when you're considering such a card "How much changes this card the game if it's in the supply?"

Some notes regarding the "Favourite Card List":
You can rank Chancellor at #1 if you like the concept or like to build a strategy around it. You can rank Torturer at #157 because it's annoying. It totally depends on you. Don't look at the strength and the cost, just consider the fun, the concept, the artwork, whatever... simply "How much do I like this card?"
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2011, 12:10:15 pm »
0

A small update to all of you: Already got 5 lists. Very interesting to see similarities and differences.

Are you only counting lists that have been PMed to you?
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2011, 12:13:19 pm »
0

A small update to all of you: Already got 5 lists. Very interesting to see similarities and differences.

Are you only counting lists that have been PMed to you?

I'm guessing so since that's what the original post asked for and the only list posted publicly in this thread so far doesn't conform to the format of either of the lists asked for anyway.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2011, 01:16:04 pm »
0

A small update to all of you: Already got 5 lists. Very interesting to see similarities and differences.

Are you only counting lists that have been PMed to you?

Yes, so that everyone is unbiased. I cannot value your small list as TINAS said. All cards need to be included in the list, sorry.
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