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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.1: Introduction and meta-discussion  (Read 49832 times)

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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2011, 01:25:37 pm »
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To each card I will post the highest and lowest rank(s), the average, and the deviation.

The average and the deviation will be weighted or not? I think it would be nice to have both...
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s)
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2012, 08:20:51 am »
+1

And please let me know if you like my comments and the current format.

Format - Great, I think 10-20 cards at a time is ideal, so I would probably cut $3 into 2 pieces in the middle (somewhere where it seems logical by the results), then $4 and $5 maybe into 3 parts (although the middle part might be a bit boring, so I don't know, 2 parts might be enough) and then $6+ and potion as a whole list again...

Your comments - Well, you're not a native speaker and you're not "supertop" player  ;D But neither am I so I cannot complain much :) I think your comments are quite objective (which is definitely nice, since this is a democratic list, not your list) and good, although sometimes you forget to mention something (Hamlet+Menagerie/Library).

Statistics - I would be happy to see more statistic things (like median or mode)...
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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2012, 09:42:32 am »
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Is there any way to look at my list(s) if I didn't save them myself? It'd be kinda interesting to see how it matches up, and I've forgotten all about it by now of course.

Thanks for doing this. I must admit I didn't read the comments past the first few cards, but those are probably meant for a different type of player. From what I did see, there are so many inaccuracies and/or half truths that I wouldn't recommend them to an intermediate player, for fear of him learning the wrong things, though. Why can't you draw a Lighthouse dead, but you can draw a Moat dead?
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2012, 12:02:56 pm »
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Okay, so I've already put my hands up that I ranked Chapel number 3 (and stand by that). Who's the other guy?

I originally meant to write the player names to the highest and lowst ranks, but I realized some may want to stay anonymous. So I think I won't spoil that.

Edit: Also, nice list. I'm pretty happy with how it's turned out. My only concern is that Fool's Gold is as high as it is, but I'm sure that'll be down to the people in the simulating board who have convinced themselves it's an unbeatable power card and have grown blind to the word "Fool's" in it's name. Also, it certainly is possible to draw Lighthouse dead, but that's the only adjustment I'd make to the text.

Thanks for your feedback. Yeah, you can draw Lighthouse dead and I didn't meant to write that. I used the wrong words, sorry. I meant "colliding" not "drawing dead". I'll change that.

@Lighthouse. The point with Lighthouse is that in many decks (Village-Torturer, Minion) 2 Lighthouses can prevent you entirely from being attacked, because it matters which cards you will see during your whole turn, not only which cards are in your hand when you're attacked, like in Moat. There are situations where that it not a great difference, and in this cases Lighthouse is about at bad as Moat, but there are Situations where you draw you're whole deck anyway, and than you really like the Lighthouses.

@Cellar. There are also the times where I love risking to discard my Coppers for the Estates, if therefore I can play my Mountebank more often. But honestly that mostly requires a 5/2-start.
I fully agree DStu, that's exactly my opinion. Moat has to be one of your 5 cards in hand. Lighthouse doesn't have to. You can play a village, then draw it and then play it.

A slight quarrel - "Haven can't hurt you"

Haven draws one card, and then you must set aside Haven and one card. So in the absence of other drawing, it does reduce your handsize by one (in exchange for increasing it next turn). Of course, you're no worse off than before you drew Haven per se, but if you need everything in your hand and you like what you draw, it can cause some irritating moments.
You're right. If you haven't bought it, you would have drawn the card in hand. But I still think Haven doesn't hurt most of the time. If you really need the drawn card, there's mostly another card, like an Estate, you can set aside.

Format - Great, I think 10-20 cards at a time is ideal, so I would probably cut $3 into 2 pieces in the middle (somewhere where it seems logical by the results), then $4 and $5 maybe into 3 parts (although the middle part might be a bit boring, so I don't know, 2 parts might be enough) and then $6+ and potion as a whole list again...

Your comments - Well, you're not a native speaker and you're not "supertop" player  ;D But neither am I so I cannot complain much :) I think your comments are quite objective (which is definitely nice, since this is a democratic list, not your list) and good, although sometimes you forget to mention something (Hamlet+Menagerie/Library).

Statistics - I would be happy to see more statistic things (like median or mode)...

Yeah, exactly I was goint to do that. The $3 list will be split into two parts, the $4 and $5s into three parts and the rest will be one list.
I know that I'm not a supertop player ranking-wise. I play mostly just for fun and trying out strategies, not only to win. I hope reaching the 4th round in the tournament proved that I can play well if I really want. My comments meant to be objective, yes. Sometimes I add a sentence with my personal opinion. I'm not going into detail in each possibly synergy or combo, because I fear such long posts no-one will read. I just try to explain the rank each card is, so I try to show each cards strengths and weaknesses. I have the (unweighted) median in my report, but I'm going to post it only when it differs from the order. If I ranked the $2 card by median, the order wouldn't have changed, so I left no comment. The mode I already posted in cases it seemed interesting for me. In the $4 and $5 lists it become less interesting, but I'll take that into account every time, I promise.

Is there any way to look at my list(s) if I didn't save them myself? It'd be kinda interesting to see how it matches up, and I've forgotten all about it by now of course.

Thanks for doing this. I must admit I didn't read the comments past the first few cards, but those are probably meant for a different type of player. From what I did see, there are so many inaccuracies and/or half truths that I wouldn't recommend them to an intermediate player, for fear of him learning the wrong things, though. Why can't you draw a Lighthouse dead, but you can draw a Moat dead?

I can send your list to you if you want. As mentioned above, I didn't meant to write "drawing dead", I meant "colliding", I'll correct that. Can you tell me other inaccuracies, please?

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
You can. Just like Feast.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2012, 02:56:54 pm »
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[Cellar] is one of 4 cards (with the 3 mentioned above) that I would buy only with $2.
Then you're missing out. In decks where you're trying to draw a lot of cards, it's better than silver a LOT of the time.

Statistics - I would be happy to see more statistic things (like median or mode)...
+1 to this. I think with a wide range of people ranking this, median is the most stable statistic to look at (lessening the effect of people ranking courtyard #10...)

Oh and if we're trying to find the ranking outliers, I'm responsible for a couple of them. I think I had Moat ranked 8 and crossroads 11. While there are situations in which crossroads is brilliant, the same can be said of secret chamber. Most of the time it's not really any better than cellar. I think Native village is killer much more often and should be above it. Pawn is maybe not as extreme, but really good a LOT of the time. The other two on the list that were low and I put above crossroads are embargo and moat. These are a little more debatable, but I think embargo has a huge impact even when it doesn't get bought and moat is super-underrated.

From the text: "If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat might be a good buy." Might? In that situation, I think Moat is a MUST-buy, and I probably open moat/silver most of the time. "But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers...is mostly the better alternative." You might be surprised if you simulate it in geronimoo's simulator. Just add a single remake or a single moat to the witch bot. Which do you think is better? Witch+Moat beast Witch+Remake 53-43.   Now I'm not saying just getting a trasher instead is not better some (or even a lot) of the time, but it's not like witch games transitioning into big money is a major outliar situation.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:00:51 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2012, 08:45:52 pm »
+1

As a side observation, this really makes me want the ability to filter Council Room's popular buys page by card cost.
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2012, 01:19:25 am »
+2

It might be nice to see a graph of for each card, x axis is the isotropic level of the raters, and y axis is the rank.

Maybe you'll see trends with the under/overrated cards.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2012, 05:11:35 am »
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It might be nice to see a graph of for each card, x axis is the isotropic level of the raters, and y axis is the rank.

Maybe you'll see trends with the under/overrated cards.

I would love to see this but there's only one person who has the stats to do it, and he's put in a lot of work already.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2012, 08:29:21 pm »
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As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the $2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.
I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.

Quote
It might be nice to see a graph of for each card, x axis is the isotropic level of the raters, and y axis is the rank.

Maybe you'll see trends with the under/overrated cards.
Nice idea. Let's see what I can do. But: All lists are still weighted by isotropic rank, so I think those graphs won't tell you anything new.
A weighted average is a nice summary statistic to get an overall rank, but it would also be nice to see if there is any correlation between card rank and iso level. If it's too much trouble to post a graph, maybe at least compute a correlation coefficient? Again, I'm not trying to be too demanding, as you're already doing a lot of work, but the more stats we see the better. :)
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Anon79

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2012, 08:57:34 pm »
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From the text: "If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat might be a good buy." Might? In that situation, I think Moat is a MUST-buy, and I probably open moat/silver most of the time. "But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers...is mostly the better alternative." You might be surprised if you simulate it in geronimoo's simulator. Just add a single remake or a single moat to the witch bot. Which do you think is better? Witch+Moat beast Witch+Remake 53-43.   Now I'm not saying just getting a trasher instead is not better some (or even a lot) of the time, but it's not like witch games transitioning into big money is a major outliar situation.
You're wrong if you think Geronimoo's simulator proves that Witch+Moat beats Witch+Remake. The basic Witch+Remake bot plays extremely poorly: it doesn't trash Witch when Curse pile is empty, it doesn't trash Curse+Silver when there is no good buy on the hand, etc. Just read the documentation for Remake.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2012, 10:56:07 pm »
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As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the $2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.
I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.
Yes, my point exactly. I think it would be nice if you (Qvist) put the median and mode everywhere (2 extra numbers for each card won't kill anyone) but only comment on them when they are interesting...or at least median, pleeeeeeease  ;D
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $2 cards posted
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2012, 11:50:00 pm »
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What format is the dataset in?  Why not just open the dataset and let people do whatever analysis they want?
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards Part 2/2 posted
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2012, 06:19:13 pm »
+1

I've gotta say, these community card rankings turned out really great, it worked much better than I thought it would.
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Elyv

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards Part 2/2 posted
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2012, 11:03:42 pm »
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Watchtower basically does a bunch of things reasonably well. It's one of the best defenses against anything but deck inspection attacks(and all of those suck anyway except swindler, which watchtower is still okay against), you can build a reasonable engine around it, and every now and then it does a royal seal impression. I really like watchtower, it's one of my favorite cards; I probably would've liked it a little higher on the list, even.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards Part 2/2 posted
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2012, 12:21:47 am »
+2

Steward ranked above Menagerie?  A pedestrian trasher (with admittedly a little more late-game use than some others) that's less and less important with each expansion, ranked over the most cost-effective engine card in the game?  Shenanigans, I say. Shenanigans!

That's really the only thing strikingly wrong about this list, but boy is it strikingly wrong.  (FWIW I had Steward at #7 and Menagerie at #3, yes I was one of the people who ranked it over Fishing Village).
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards Part 2/2 posted
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2012, 12:25:45 am »
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I've gotta say, these community card rankings turned out really great, it worked much better than I thought it would.

I'd bet that Qvist's decision to weight by isotropic rank is really helping to keep the numbers in line.  (That and the readers here are generally pretty good at Dominion to begin with.)
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Fuu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2012, 07:22:58 pm »
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Thanks for compiling this thread, it is very interesting - it is also helping me to decide which expansion to purchase! (Currently, Seaside)
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2012, 12:01:17 pm »
+1

Short meta question: Does anyone think these threads would be better off if they were split a bit more?  Maybe different topics per cost?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2012, 12:09:16 pm »
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Short meta question: Does anyone think these threads would be better off if they were split a bit more?  Maybe different topics per cost?
Yes.

jsh357

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2012, 12:28:31 pm »
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Yes, and please edit the first post in each to have the full lists.
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mrdirt73

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2012, 12:46:36 pm »
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Short meta question: Does anyone think these threads would be better off if they were split a bit more?  Maybe different topics per cost?

I vote yes.
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Meta-discussion
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2012, 02:16:55 pm »
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Argh, so I screwed up the split.

Basically you can't move posts between topics after they have been created.  You can only split a topic into two once.  So I can't incrementally move some meta discussion posts into their own threads, I needed to do it all at once.

Which means I've splintered some of the discussion.  Sorry!
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theory

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Meta-discussion
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2012, 02:31:17 pm »
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This is what you get for trying to do forum moderation, you uncivilized barbarian of statistics.

There is a way, but it's a little complex.  You split, and then split again, and then use "merge topics" at the bottom of the screen.

I think we can just leave them merged for now, and then create new topics duplicating the content.
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Meta-discussion
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2012, 02:39:03 pm »
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Okay, I figured out the merge trick.  I think (with the exception of a few mis-classified posts), it's a lot more orderly now.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Introduction and meta-discussion
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2012, 02:49:41 pm »
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Unfortunately, now the links to the actual lists on this OP are now broken. I guess they need to be fixed, and some need to be added to the top of each of the now separated threads.
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