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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2012 Ed.1: Introduction and meta-discussion  (Read 44443 times)

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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 04:56:08 am »
0

Just wanted to pop this up again. I received 9 "Best" Lists and 4 "Favourite" Lists so far.
Still 11 days to go. Especially the $4's and the $5's still have high variance.
So, I'd appreciate if I'd receive some more lists, especially some "Best" Lists from higher ranked players.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 08:35:44 am »
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Ok, I have 2 questions before I get to business  ;D

1. Do you want a list containing 157 cards or 6 list diveded by the cost?

2. If the first, relatively to the cost or absolutely (for example: Chapel is one of the strongest relatively for it's cost, but I still think it is much weaker then any 5+ card)?
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 08:46:58 am »
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For the "Best" Card List you need to basically make 6 lists divided by cost. Of course you can't compare Chapel and King's Court.
It's still hard to compare cards even if you only take the cards into account which have the same cost.

If you want to submit a "Favourite" Card List, send only one list containing all 157 cards ranked in the order you like. You can put Chapel in the first or the last place. It depends how much you like playing with it or you like the concept of the card.

I hope that helped.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 12:09:37 pm »
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Yes, that helped, thank you :)
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lympi

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2011, 01:24:15 pm »
+4

I'd appreciate if I'd receive some more lists, especially some "Best" Lists from higher ranked players.

Qvist, I think there's sort of a high barrier of entry here. It's a fair amount of work both for the respondent to put together a half dozen lists and for you on your end to manually input all this data into whatever spreadsheet you're using. It's 2011, we have the technology.

I made this poll for the $2 cards in like three minutes…

http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/WEB22E8M7L8ENJ

You could probably hammer out the full 157 card list in 15 minutes (or spend another 15 and try to find a better survey site, I found that one by googling "create online draggable rankings survey"), post the poll here and I bet you'd get quite a few more responses, and save time on your end.

Just a thought.
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yuma

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2011, 03:03:33 pm »
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I'd appreciate if I'd receive some more lists, especially some "Best" Lists from higher ranked players.

Qvist, I think there's sort of a high barrier of entry here. It's a fair amount of work both for the respondent to put together a half dozen lists and for you on your end to manually input all this data into whatever spreadsheet you're using. It's 2011, we have the technology.

I made this poll for the $2 cards in like three minutes…

http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/WEB22E8M7L8ENJ

You could probably hammer out the full 157 card list in 15 minutes (or spend another 15 and try to find a better survey site, I found that one by googling "create online draggable rankings survey"), post the poll here and I bet you'd get quite a few more responses, and save time on your end.

Just a thought.

I replied to Qvist awhile ago and just took the survey. On my end it was much, much simpler and easier than trying to do so in my word document or in my e-mail. Either way, thanks to Qvist for being willing to do this, I am excited to see the completed lists.
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2011, 04:14:59 pm »
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Indeed, if you don't mind the course correction, I bet you'd get a lot greater response rate from a survey set up like that.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2011, 05:04:47 am »
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Thanks for the advice. Normally I'm the one who thinks first in something like this.
I just editted the first post.

Quote
Edit: You can use these online surveys too:
Best Cards
Favourite Cards
Please be sure that you put each card in order on the right and don't miss any.
The best/favourite card goes on top.
If you have already submitted, you don't have to take the survey.
And if you don't like that survey, you can still PM me.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2011, 05:06:42 am »
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If I've already sent you any lists, do you want me to transfer my answers to the new surveys or will that result in my votes being counted twice? (I don't mind transferring my votes, it won't take long).

Edit: Nevermind. I should read before I post.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 05:09:07 am by Thisisnotasmile »
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2011, 05:56:48 am »
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Thanks!  And boy, the top half of the $5 cards was really tough...I especially had a hard time figuring out the ordering of the top 10-15 there.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2011, 03:52:04 am »
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I just wanted to thank you, lympi.
I got new lists in very short time. We're now up to 17 "Best Card Lists" and 6 "Favourite Card Lists".
For the "Best Card List" the variance now seems to decline and I'm pretty confident that we're getting very good results.
I already learned something from it and I hope someone will get benefit from those lists too when I'm gonna publish it.
8 days to go, I would be happy to get some more.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2011, 05:31:00 am »
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Thanks!  And boy, the top half of the $5 cards was really tough...I especially had a hard time figuring out the ordering of the top 10-15 there.

I think the top 15 or so $5 cards are pretty easy, actually; it's numbers 15 through 25 that I keep going back and forth on. :P

Actually, the hardest part of this list was figuring out what I wanted at #5 for the $4 cards.  In general, the $4 cards was the only list that really still has me second-guessing.
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2011, 02:21:12 pm »
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I think the top 15 or so $5 cards are pretty easy, actually; it's numbers 15 through 25 that I keep going back and forth on. :P

Do you mean collectively or the ordering within them?  Picking out the top 15 or so cards is easy enough, but there are enough good cards in there that ordering them is anything but obvious, so much there is situational.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2011, 09:16:38 pm »
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About 45 hours left.
I received 24 "Best Card Lists" so far. I think we get a very good result of the ranking of all cards. I'm very excited to present it to you.
But of course I would be happy to get more lists. So you have still time to send me your lists. Last chance!
Beginning with the 1st of January I will post 3-5 rankings per day with statistics and comments. I hope you will like it.
I will begin 1st of January with the 3 worst $2 cards.

As I said earlier, I gave points based on the rank of each card. I tried to evualate the arithmetic mean of those points. As some lists were from way better players than other lists, I realised I get better results when I calculate a weighted average. I hope you all agree with this decision. I know that a good player can also rank cards bad and vice versa, but I tried to get a "objective" ranking as a guide for all players, so a weighted ranking seems obvious. I will not do it for the "Favourite Card List". All lists will count the same.
But in the online survey I didn't make the fields mandatory so I received 2 lists without isotropic or dominionstrategy username. If you read this, I would be glad to get your names so your lists will have a higher impact in the final result.

I did not get many lists for the "Favourite Card List".
I decided to postpone the deadline for this list to around 31th January when presenting the "Best Card List" will be over.
I hope the presenting of the "Best Card List" will animate a few more to post the "Favourite Card List" and give you more time to compile the list for yourself as it takes time to rank 157 cards.

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Tables

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2011, 11:10:25 pm »
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Can I ask how you're rating players? Just using Isotropic ratings I guess? I think that's a good idea.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2011, 05:47:11 am »
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I tried doing a favourite list but I gave up after about 2 hours when I had about 10 cards ranked. I'm definitely up for helping to create a list of cards based on how fun they are to play rather than how powerful they are, but I don't intend to contribute in the current format. Obviously I don't expect it all to change now because it would be unfair on the people who have submitted lists, but if this happens again I would much prefer to give each card a fun-rating on a scale of 1 to X, for example.

Also, to pre-empt the uproar when Chapel doesn't get maximum possible points on the best list: That was me and I stand by my ranking. I still fully expect it to be number 1 though.
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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2011, 10:23:48 am »
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Don't do 3 per day or whatever, that's borderline ridiculous. Just post one complete list and let us talk about it. Rolling this out over a month or more.. I can't think of a single good thing with a decision like that. I'd prefer if you just compiled the data and posted it all at once, but if you want to milk it a little with one list a day, I guess that's fine.

In my opinion.

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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2011, 10:48:09 am »
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@Tables: Oh I forgot that. Yeah, I weighted the lists based on the isotropic level.

@TINAS: Thanks for your feedback. Let's see what we can make out of it.

@Fabian: Hm, I like to write some comments to each card, just like theory did in the Best and Worst Lists.
I'm sure no-one will read a post of all 157 cards with comments. They will all say "tl;dr"
Also, just posting a list of all cards in order doesn't help any new players too much and even experienced players may miss the reason of particular cards ranked in the specific spot.
But if no-one is interested in comments and statistics I can just post the list, that's no problem. But I hoped you may be interested in background information.
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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2011, 11:06:07 am »
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Since you asked us for our input, I figured these lists were meant to reflect the collective opinion of all respondents. I didn't realize it was also an individual comment thing for you, in which case I'm not sure why you asked us for data in the first place :)

Anyway, alright. In my opinion, a list of all $3 cards ordered by how much the community likes the card is going to tell us exactly that, and nothing more. I don't know what kind of commentary you (or anyone really) could provice to spice that list up, nor what anyone could learn from it other than how popular different cards are relative to each other, which no amount of commentary is going to change. But it is your thread after all :)
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2011, 11:15:57 am »
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In my opinion, if the lists are revealed three cards at a time, the fact that they are lists is going to get lost, at least for some. Also, as Fabian says, these lists are based on what the community as a whole believes, so we need to hear the opinion of everyone who wants to contribute (and that includes you, I am certainly not saying your comments are not relevant). However, the community as a whole can't really contribute their opinions on the list when we only know where three cards are.

I feel that it would be best the release the lists one at a time as complete entities. Maybe one per week or more often depending on how long discussion lasts. That way, everybody can see the a whole list at the same time and discuss it together. Of course, you can give your comments too however you originally planned to, just list by list rather than 3 cards by 3 cards.

That's what I think would be best, anyway. It's your list so it's up to you.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2011, 02:26:55 pm »
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Regarding the way the lists are released, I think at most you can split the longer lists into 2-3 lists (i.e. 15-20 cards per post). Seeing 3 cards at a time kind of defeats the point of having a list. You don't need to say something about each card. That's a separate project. It would be more interesting to discuss interesting things going on in the lists like for instance a card having a high variance in ranking and guesses as to why.

Also, I'm just curious about how you assigned scores to the cards. Is it linear in rank? It seems that stuff in the middle is kind of randomly ordered and pretty arbitrarily ordered, while more time is spent sorting the top cards, so maybe some non-linear thing is better?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 02:37:30 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2011, 05:29:45 pm »
0

How about Qvist PMed some people who did a list to make a short article about a specific card(s) that he ranked differently than he "should"? Then Qvist will just put it together (with some cards from him of course) post the whole list (or maybe in parts for the $4 and $5). This will take up some time, but I think this is good idea for these 3 reasons:

1. The list will be from community.
2. The comments will be interesting since someone, who put the card somewhere, where it probably doesn't belogn, has probably a strong opinion about it.
3. It would be fun!  ;D

What do you think, guys?

And of course NOBODY (expect for Qvist) will really know the position of the card he is about to review (this seems more fun to me, but we can cut this part out and just first put the list (one every ~5 days) then make the articles).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2011, 05:33:59 pm »
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Eh. I would either reveal either every cost point in its entirety, one by one (so like the 2s, then 3 days later, the 3s, then three days later, the 4s, etc) or the whole list of every card at least like 15 at a time. Or just a big list dump, which seems totally fine to me too.

DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2011, 05:36:22 pm »
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Eh. I would either reveal either every cost point in its entirety, one by one (so like the 2s, then 3 days later, the 3s, then three days later, the 4s, etc) or the whole list of every card at least like 15 at a time. Or just a big list dump, which seems totally fine to me too.

Yeah, if my idea doesn't get enough attention, I agree with this. 3-5 cards at a time is just too small to be interesting...
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2011, 12:43:51 pm »
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About 6 hours to go.
I got very good rankings and can't wait to post them.
Thanks for your feedback to this. I'm definitely not going to post only the rankings. I think many points will get lost.
But I will post more than 3 cards per day as you all suggested. The first post of this thread will include a raw list of all cards in ranked order and a link to the post my comments are posted.
So it is guaranteed the list character won't get lost. But each card has still additional information.
To each card I will post the highest and lowest rank(s), the average, and the deviation.
Then I will comment why I think it is in the rank or why it has such high deviation etc...
Then feel free to comment and discuss the rankings too, if you feel surprised by the ranking and if you agree with me or not.
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