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Author Topic: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion  (Read 5255 times)

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ashersky

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Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« on: June 17, 2014, 07:21:43 pm »
0

I'm thinking for the first iteration, we keep it simple and learn from what doesn't work.

Option 1:  Soulbound + Commons Only

Option 2:

Quote
How's this?  All soulbound + commons and a dust budget of 600?

So possible addition of:

--1 Epic
--1 Epic, 2 Rares
--1-6 Rares

So it's still a basic deck tournament, but with the ability to add a few cards to augment your strategy.  Plus, anyone who's opened 6 packs has 6 rares at least.

Option 3:  Unlimited Constructed.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 07:40:16 pm by ashersky »
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2014, 07:23:33 pm »
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As for games/matches -- a blend of Kirian's Gokodom and Stef's Dominion League makes sense to me.

How's 6 games per match, each player goes first 3 times.  Conceding in friendlies doesn't hurt ranking.

Depending on the number of sign-ups, probably a head-to-head elimination (a la NCAA Basketball) makes the most sense?
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2014, 07:30:24 pm »
+1

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to "dictate" anything, but I personally would prefer no deck construction limits. I know other people have voiced different opinions, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there -- no reason not to hear from as many preferences as possible.

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 07:34:48 pm »
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I want to be clear that I'm not trying to "dictate" anything, but I personally would prefer no deck construction limits. I know other people have voiced different opinions, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there -- no reason not to hear from as many preferences as possible.

Absolutely.  I've seen everything from "no limit" to "only soulbound + commons."  No way we'll have a setup that everyone is thrilled with.

Would you avoid a limited constructed format?
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 07:35:26 pm »
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I want to be clear that I'm not trying to "dictate" anything, but I personally would prefer no deck construction limits. I know other people have voiced different opinions, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there -- no reason not to hear from as many preferences as possible.
Although I am a lower-level player without even one Legend yet, I kind of agree with this statement. For one, it makes things simpler--and it also eliminates problems concerning people not following the rules. And it stays true to the normal Hearthstone system.
Just my 2 cents anyway, I'll be happy about this tournament either way.

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 07:36:02 pm »
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I'm thinking for the first iteration, we keep it simple and learn from what doesn't work.

How's this?  All soulbound + commons and a dust budget of 400?

So possible addition of:

--1 Epic
--1 Epic, 2 Rares
--3 Rares
--4 Rares

So it's still a basic deck tournament, but with the ability to add a few cards to augment your strategy.  Plus, anyone who's opened 4 packs has 4 rares at least.

1 epic and 2 rares is 600 dust.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 07:38:45 pm »
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I'm thinking for the first iteration, we keep it simple and learn from what doesn't work.

How's this?  All soulbound + commons and a dust budget of 400?

So possible addition of:

--1 Epic
--1 Epic, 2 Rares
--3 Rares
--4 Rares

So it's still a basic deck tournament, but with the ability to add a few cards to augment your strategy.  Plus, anyone who's opened 4 packs has 4 rares at least.

1 epic and 2 rares is 600 dust.

Oh, right.  Duh.  So it could be a 600 dust limit, up to 6 rares.

I'll edit in options in the OP.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 07:38:50 pm »
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Also, what about Old Murk-Eye (and Captain's Parrot), they are soulbond too.

As for me, as I've said before, I'm meh on the whole limit idea, but might play, whatever.

Edit: How many decks?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 07:47:38 pm by Grujah »
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 08:30:17 pm »
+1

I have little interest in a card-restricted format, similar to how I would have little interest in playing a basic-set-only Dominion tournament I suppose. 
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 09:38:27 pm »
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I have little interest in a card-restricted format, similar to how I would have little interest in playing a basic-set-only Dominion tournament I suppose.
Not a good comparison..

I'm fine with anything.  I have all the cards
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markusin

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 09:48:49 pm »
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I have little interest in a card-restricted format, similar to how I would have little interest in playing a basic-set-only Dominion tournament I suppose.
Not a good comparison..

I'm fine with anything.  I have all the cards
Just curious, but do you still play arena? I guess with all cards you don't have anything better to do with Gold.

I don't have any legendaries, but I'd still be okay with unlimited. Mostly, I'm not thrilled at the idea of having to count the dust cost of each non-soulbound card.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 09:50:06 pm »
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I don't have any legendaries, but I'd still be okay with unlimited. Mostly, I'm not thrilled at the idea of having to count the dust cost of each non-soulbound card.

To clarify, you only have to count the dust of rares + epics.  All soulbound/commons are free to use.

I guess Murk-eye and Parrot would be disallowed if we went with this version.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2014, 09:50:45 pm »
0

Arena is fun.  I don't literally have all the cards.  I still lack the legendaries Millhouse, Onyxia, Nozdormu, and the Beast. 
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 10:03:05 pm »
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Arena is fun.  I don't literally have all the cards.  I still lack the legendaries Millhouse, Onyxia, Nozdormu, and the Beast.

You have all the class legendaries?  Did you craft or open most of them?
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2014, 10:57:58 pm »
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My 2 cents: gimmick deck construction limits are better for short-running tournaments, and unlimited deck construction is better for long-running leagues. I'm more interested in the short tournaments but I'm up for either.

For the match format, please no trying to balance P1 vs P2, that was easily my least favourite thing about gokodom, and in hearthstone the P1 advantage is quite small (and I'd assume that certain decks have a P2 advantage, notably any rogue deck). I propose using these rules http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Innkeeper's_Invitational, except allowing the winner to change their deck between games if they like but may not change class. (The reason is that you can't enforce using the same deck in an online tournament.)
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 11:37:48 pm »
0

I think it's too complicated to have a dust limit.  If we were to impose limits (which I'm in favor of, I think it adds flavor in a way different than base-only Dominion), I would prefer all-common or all-common + 1 rare etc.

I think there's an interesting puzzle to make good decks with constraints on them.  It is kind of like how good board games restrict your choice in order to expand your options.  Dominion doesn't have you play with every card simultaneously.  You build your deck from a limited set of 10.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2014, 03:46:26 am »
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I like the Innkeeper setup.  That's easy.

How about the same, 5 matches, head to head, single elimination.  3 decks, same class, loser can change.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2014, 06:06:26 am »
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3 decks different class sounds much better to me.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2014, 07:08:56 am »
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I would prefer no restrictions, but can live with them. I would prefer 3 decks, different classes, winner have to keep, loser have to change format
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 09:28:04 am »
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Remmber that card collections don't carry over from EU to America, unless that has been changed.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 09:41:07 am »
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Remmber that card collections don't carry over from EU to America, unless that has been changed.

Yeah, I thought that was the main reason behind a commons-only tournament.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 10:59:49 am »
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Remmber that card collections don't carry over from EU to America, unless that has been changed.

Yeah, I thought that was the main reason behind a commons-only tournament.

Good point. It's not that easy to make a collection of even commons when switching servers though. You're stuck with basic cards until you get a few packs, in which case the only thing that might make your deck decent is the couple of rares you find in the packs.

So then, it still makes sense to have a dust limit on rares and epics, because you get rares as you build up a collection of commons.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2014, 11:56:51 pm »
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If we're actually doing a small tournament, I'm voting for the restrictions (something like soulbound + commons + x rares)
But i'd still play if it were free for all.  I'd just lose horribly :P

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2014, 11:49:38 am »
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If we're actually doing a small tournament, I'm voting for the restrictions (something like soulbound + commons + x rares)
But i'd still play if it were free for all.  I'd just lose horribly :P

Yeah after playing with you, I agree with some sort of ristriction. But not soul bound only.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2014, 12:17:41 pm »
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If we're actually doing a small tournament, I'm voting for the restrictions (something like soulbound + commons + x rares)
But i'd still play if it were free for all.  I'd just lose horribly :P

Yeah after playing with you, I agree with some sort of ristriction. But not soul bound only.
Right :P

I like the unlimited soul bounds+commons and additional X amount of dust in other cards. I don't think that's complicated if you don't count the dust in commons

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2014, 12:45:20 pm »
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Commons + X dust sounds pretty zoo-favored, since they sometimes don't run epics or legendaries even in ideal versions.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2014, 03:31:03 pm »
+1

We should play DXV varietize.  For match against two players, randomly pick 30 neutral commons/basics, and 10 class commons/basics per class.  You take five minutes to build a deck of whichever class you fancy most, and choose which cards to include or exclude in your build, bo3.


It's a tad complicated, though.  What is nice about it is that it balances out the warlock class the same way arena balances out the warlock class, it (somewhat) forces the warlock class to use its subpar class cards to balance out it's abovepar hero power.


Or we can just go with the whole basic common thing.  Since the meta is expected to be aggro, we would probably get a little variety in the form of "beats aggro but loses to everything else" decks so it would be ok.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2014, 06:08:58 pm »
+1

I put together a little script to do roughly the thing that popsofctown is proposing. The idea is to simulate the same card availability that you'd see in arena, but present them all to you at once. Unlike actual arena, instead of 3 cards per turn, it's 2 cards per turn, to offset the advantage of selecting cards from a pool all at once. (There's a mathematical justification behind 2, but the real test is whether it feels balanced.) Right now, the class is randomly selected, but that could be changed. Example:
Code: [Select]
Class: Rogue

Commons (pick 25)
     1 Conceal
     1 Deadly Poison
     1 Goldshire Footman
     1 Grimscale Oracle
     1 Leper Gnome
     1 Leper Gnome
     1 Shieldbearer
     1 Sinister Strike
     1 Voodoo Doctor
     2 Acidic Swamp Ooze
     2 Amani Berserker
     2 Amani Berserker
     2 Bloodsail Raider
     2 Bluegill Warrior
     2 Defias Ringleader
     2 Defias Ringleader
     2 Dire Wolf Alpha
     2 Kobold Geomancer
     2 Loot Hoarder
     2 Novice Engineer
     2 Shiv
     3 Acolyte of Pain
     3 Ironfur Grizzly
     3 Magma Rager
     3 Razorfen Hunter
     3 Shattered Sun Cleric
     3 Thrallmar Farseer
     4 Ancient Brewmaster
     4 Chillwind Yeti
     4 Chillwind Yeti
     4 Dark Iron Dwarf
     4 Mogu'shan Warden
     4 Mogu'shan Warden
     4 Ogre Magi
     4 Sen'jin Shieldmasta
     4 Silvermoon Guardian
     4 Silvermoon Guardian
     5 Assassin's Blade
     5 Assassin's Blade
     5 Booty Bay Bodyguard
     5 Silver Hand Knight
     5 Spiteful Smith
     6 Archmage
     6 Frost Elemental
     6 Lord of the Arena
     6 Priestess of Elune
     6 Reckless Rocketeer
     6 Windfury Harpy
     7 Core Hound
     7 Stormwind Champion

Rares (pick 4)
     1 Lightwarden
     1 Secretkeeper
     2 Knife Juggler
     3 Imp Master
     3 Questing Adventurer
     3 SI:7 Agent
     5 Stampeding Kodo
     6 Argent Commander

Epics (pick 0)

Legendaries (pick 1)
     5 Captain Greenskin
     9 Ysera
The frequency of class cards feels a little low here because I don't give them special weighting, since I don't know how they are weighted in actual arena.
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2014, 06:39:58 pm »
0

That looks cool. 
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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2014, 07:09:00 pm »
0

Fixed to use more accurate probabilities. Here's a new example, and below I'll take my best guess at picks from it.
Code: [Select]
Class: Rogue

Common (pick 21)
     0 Shadowstep
     0 Shadowstep
     1 Abusive Sergeant
     1 Conceal
     1 Shieldbearer
     1 Southsea Deckhand
     1 Young Dragonhawk
     2 Betrayal
     2 Defias Ringleader
     2 Defias Ringleader
     2 Dire Wolf Alpha
     2 Dire Wolf Alpha
     2 Eviscerate
     2 Eviscerate
     2 Faerie Dragon
     2 Kobold Geomancer
     2 Shiv
     3 Dalaran Mage
     3 Dalaran Mage
     3 Earthen Ring Farseer
     3 Fan of Knives
     3 Flesheating Ghoul
     3 Ironforge Rifleman
     3 Shattered Sun Cleric
     3 Silverback Patriarch
     3 Tauren Warrior
     3 Tauren Warrior
     4 Chillwind Yeti
     4 Cult Master
     4 Dark Iron Dwarf
     4 Dread Corsair
     4 Dread Corsair
     4 Stormwind Knight
     5 Assassin's Blade
     5 Spiteful Smith
     5 Stormpike Commando
     5 Stranglethorn Tiger
     5 Stranglethorn Tiger
     6 Frost Elemental
     6 Lord of the Arena
     7 War Golem
     7 War Golem

Rare (pick 7)
     1 Bloodsail Corsair
     1 Lightwarden
     1 Young Priestess
     2 Ancient Watcher
     2 Crazed Alchemist
     2 Knife Juggler
     2 Mana Addict
     2 Mana Wraith
     2 Mana Wraith
     2 Pint-Sized Summoner
     2 Sunfury Protector
     4 Ancient Mage
     4 Twilight Drake
     4 Violet Teacher

Epic (pick 2)
     2 Doomsayer
     6 Kidnapper
     6 Kidnapper
    20 Molten Giant

Legendary (pick 0)

Example picks in the spoiler. Hard to know how to pick really given that the meta for this format is unknown.

Southsea Deckhand
Betrayal
Eviscerate x2
Shiv
Crazed Alchemist
Defias Ringleader x2
Faerie Dragon
Knife Juggler
Kobold Geomancer
Mana Wraith
Pint-Sized Summoner
Sunfury Protector
Fan of Knives
Earthen Ring Farseer
Flesheating Ghoul
Shattered Sun Cleric
Chillwind Yeti
Cult Master
Dark Iron Dwarf
Twilight Drake
Violet Teacher
Assassin's Blade
Stranglethorn Tiger
Frost Elemental
Kidnapper
War Golem
Molten Giant
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popsofctown

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2014, 11:17:06 am »
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I like the format
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Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

markusin

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2014, 11:59:03 am »
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KingZog3

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2014, 02:36:46 pm »
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AHoppy

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Re: Isohearth I: Setup Discussion
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2014, 03:18:18 pm »
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Sounds like fun.  How much dust will I need to save up though?
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