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Author Topic: Arena General Discussion  (Read 329177 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #675 on: August 18, 2015, 08:26:54 am »
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I lost the game, though I threw away the victory.

Up 15-13, my opponent had a 9/9 on the board and 3 cards in his hand. I had a Sunfury Protector on board and a Pyro as my only card. I could've hit face and fireblast for 3, setting up my Pyro on the following turn, but if he had a Pyro or Fireball of his own he could do lethal - So I blasted his minion and kept my minion on board. Unfortunately he had neither spell, and instead dropped 3 minions on his next turn, and I was out of ways to recover.

Ah well. It was a fun match.
I wouldn't say you've thrown anything away here.  That's an almost impossible situation.  It's usually safest to assume that a mage has a fireball in a 3-card hand, particularly late-game (especially if they've been holding back a particular card).  It's literally just a gamble - whatever you do, there's a possibilities you'll get punished for it.  I think I would have pyro'd the 9/9 too.

The question is which play led to a win vs which play led to you not losing as fast. Sometimes you can't play around cards because you will certainly lose of if you do. Many games I've had to play into flamestrike because otherwise I'd lose. So if you had no way to remove the 9/9 and he has cards and you don't, hitting face would be the winning play since it leads to a win, but trying to ping off the minion leads to nothing because if he has fireball he wins any no matter what.
Good point.  It depends a little bit on what's left in your deck though.  If you know that your final three cards are two fireballs and a flamestrike (extreme example), then the safe play is probably the better one.

Of course in that case you're right, I'd play it safe. Except I don't see the advantage of pinging the 9/9 minion anyway. if you aren't killing it and you know in your deck you aren't killing it, you're better off pinging face. Push for lethal when you can because you lose more games playing it completely safe.
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markusin

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #676 on: August 18, 2015, 09:19:19 am »
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I lost the game, though I threw away the victory.

Up 15-13, my opponent had a 9/9 on the board and 3 cards in his hand. I had a Sunfury Protector on board and a Pyro as my only card. I could've hit face and fireblast for 3, setting up my Pyro on the following turn, but if he had a Pyro or Fireball of his own he could do lethal - So I blasted his minion and kept my minion on board. Unfortunately he had neither spell, and instead dropped 3 minions on his next turn, and I was out of ways to recover.

Ah well. It was a fun match.
I wouldn't say you've thrown anything away here.  That's an almost impossible situation.  It's usually safest to assume that a mage has a fireball in a 3-card hand, particularly late-game (especially if they've been holding back a particular card).  It's literally just a gamble - whatever you do, there's a possibilities you'll get punished for it.  I think I would have pyro'd the 9/9 too.

The question is which play led to a win vs which play led to you not losing as fast. Sometimes you can't play around cards because you will certainly lose of if you do. Many games I've had to play into flamestrike because otherwise I'd lose. So if you had no way to remove the 9/9 and he has cards and you don't, hitting face would be the winning play since it leads to a win, but trying to ping off the minion leads to nothing because if he has fireball he wins any no matter what.
Good point.  It depends a little bit on what's left in your deck though.  If you know that your final three cards are two fireballs and a flamestrike (extreme example), then the safe play is probably the better one.

Of course in that case you're right, I'd play it safe. Except I don't see the advantage of pinging the 9/9 minion anyway. if you aren't killing it and you know in your deck you aren't killing it, you're better off pinging face. Push for lethal when you can because you lose more games playing it completely safe.
He was killing the 9/9. He had Pyroblast that he used on the 9/9 instead of dealing 10 damage to face.
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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #677 on: August 18, 2015, 09:59:35 am »
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But he had no way to win after he did that. He had no cards in hand.
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Haddock

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #678 on: August 18, 2015, 10:09:28 am »
+1

But he had no way to win after he did that. He had no cards in hand.
This is true.  I'm increasingly convinced that about 70-80% of the time you should hold the pyro here. 

But I'm also convinced that a good decision cannot be made without knowledge of the what's left in your deck.  If the rest of your deck is good enough to win on topdecks (not QUITE as unlikely as it sounds), then the safe play is the better one.  Otherwise yeah you should make the greedy play and pray for no fireball.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Galzria

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #679 on: August 18, 2015, 06:55:53 pm »
+1

Currently 5-0 with this deck. Taking a break to go to work, but I like where this is going. Super Aggro:

Paladin:

2x Avenge
Blessing of Might
Hand of Protection
Repentance
Leper Gnome

Acidic Swamp Ooze
2x Argent Protector
Haunted Creeper
Loot Hoarder
Novice Engineer
Pint-Sized Summoner

Earthen Ring Farseer
Harvest Golem
Jungle Panther
2x Spider Tank
Tinkertown Technician

Truesilver Champion
Consecration
Dragonling Mechanic
2x Piloted Shredder

Fel Reaver
Frostwolf Warlord
Quartermaster
Silver-Hand Knight
Stampeding Kodo

Sunwalker
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 07:17:19 pm by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

ycz6

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #680 on: August 19, 2015, 11:46:51 pm »
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What would you do here? http://imgur.com/R4eGg7b
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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #681 on: August 19, 2015, 11:48:16 pm »
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What would you do here? http://imgur.com/R4eGg7b

With no other information I'd just trade the 4/3 with the drake and hit face. Is there another play I should be considering?
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #682 on: August 19, 2015, 11:54:31 pm »
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What would you do here? http://imgur.com/R4eGg7b

With no other information I'd just trade the 4/3 with the drake and hit face. Is there another play I should be considering?
Well, hitting the drake with your face then trading the questing adventuring is better value. Whether it's wise to go to 10 health here, I don't know. You have enough guys out to clear things from the board, but if he has Death's Bite and a charger, he will kill you before you kill him. I'd risk going to 10 life since he needs two cards to kill you from there, but I'm no expert. :P
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nkirbit

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #683 on: August 20, 2015, 12:17:43 am »
+1

What would you do here? http://imgur.com/R4eGg7b

With no other information I'd just trade the 4/3 with the drake and hit face. Is there another play I should be considering?
Well, hitting the drake with your face then trading the questing adventuring is better value. Whether it's wise to go to 10 health here, I don't know. You have enough guys out to clear things from the board, but if he has Death's Bite and a charger, he will kill you before you kill him. I'd risk going to 10 life since he needs two cards to kill you from there, but I'm no expert. :P

One card is arcanite reaper.

You're really far ahead, I think I would play around reaper and kill the drake with the 4/3.
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ycz6

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #684 on: August 20, 2015, 12:27:42 am »
+1

I think killing the Drake with the Cobra is also a reasonable move, actually; it's stronger against Cleave and leaves with the most damage without taking 4 to the face.

Anyway, I ended up trading in the 3/3 and hitting with the dagger, and ended up losing when he topdecked a Gorehowl (with next-turn lethal for me). Using the Cobra would have also probably lost, as I needed it to clear a Sunwalker at some point, but using the 4/3 would've given me a chance.
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Grujah

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #685 on: August 20, 2015, 09:46:27 am »
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I would have traded 4/3.
I don't think trading 3/3 is "better value". I mean, they are both 3 hp and die to most things, and you really need to preserve life total here.
I wouldn't use cobra if I could make a better trade as cobra can take down bigger things.

Edit: the only reason you would trade 3/3 is so that if he drops a x/4 you can trade in with 4/3 instead of 3/3 and face, but.. that is the exact same situation as one here.
And I do not really think the ability on trogg is worth much at all.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 09:48:13 am by Grujah »
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popsofctown

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #686 on: August 20, 2015, 10:25:52 am »
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I would definitely rank using the 3/3 and dagger as the worst of the 3 options.  1 Attack is not better value, and Rockjaw Trogg's winmore is not better value either.

Since the Cobra had less health than the Rockjaw it seemed defensible to use the Cobra instead with the expectation that both the silent adventurer and burly Rockjaw would survive Slams and Cleaves.  It depends a little on the previous turn whether Slams and Cleaves are possibly sitting in hand.

Sunwalker coming into a world where Stormwind champion is already dead obviously makes you wish that you had the Cobra, but you can't see the future.

overall, all 3 pieces were of roughly equal value to you, so you should have used one of the ones that doesn't require Valeera's assistance to remove the Drake, probably the rockjaw.
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Haddock

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #687 on: August 20, 2015, 07:01:07 pm »
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Yeah, taking 4 damage to the face for one extra total attack on the board MIGHT be worth it in the very early game, but not here, particularly when it could potentially put you in lethal range. 

Going down to 10 health is dodgy against any class except maybe priest.  In fact against priest I might even consider the 3/3-knife play, since you could argue that it also plays around shadow word pain.  But even then I think the 4/3 thing is marginally better.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

ycz6

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #688 on: August 20, 2015, 10:03:15 pm »
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Thanks for the input all! Personally I think people are underestimating the comeback-killing potential of the Trogg effect, as it plays a huge role in lines where my opponent does something like Whirlwind-Execute on the Champion, which I suspect is the most likely way for me to lose the game. But saving the health is probably worth it.

Anyway, meanwhile in my current run... http://imgur.com/JwDfdwt
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Grujah

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #689 on: August 20, 2015, 10:09:38 pm »
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Jeezus. That's in rank with a post on reddit where a guy got a Thaddius in arena. (He drafted both Feugen and Stalagg).
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ycz6

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #690 on: August 20, 2015, 10:22:31 pm »
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It's a little less ridiculous when you realize that he actually just Faceless Manipulatored my Sneed's, and later traded it into the Onyxia that popped from mine, then played his Kel'thuzad on the same turn, thus resulting in the board position pictured. Or maybe it isn't.
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markusin

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #691 on: August 20, 2015, 11:02:08 pm »
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Just yesterday I was at 6-2 and encountered an opponent who had Dr. Boom, Ysera, and Kel'thuzad. I lost.
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Watno

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #692 on: August 21, 2015, 11:36:29 am »
+1

Just had a 12 win paladin featuring 5 Shielded Minibots and 2 Argent Protectors.
Too bad getting those will get less likely with TGT, I'll miss them.
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Jorbles

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #693 on: August 21, 2015, 03:04:34 pm »
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Just had a 12 win paladin featuring 5 Shielded Minibots and 2 Argent Protectors.
Too bad getting those will get less likely with TGT, I'll miss them.

I'm looking forward to facing less Paladins in Arena. It'll change things up. In my current run I have faced 4 Paladins and a Mage.
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popsofctown

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #694 on: August 21, 2015, 03:50:46 pm »
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With AoE increasing scarcity and Pally's solid inspirational hero power, I'm not sure Paladin will decline that much.
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Haddock

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #695 on: August 21, 2015, 08:25:42 pm »
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With AoE increasing scarcity and Pally's solid inspirational hero power, I'm not sure Paladin will decline that much.
Plus pally has some really strong arena cards incoming, like the +3 attack/divine shield thing, or better, the guy who gives recruits +1 attack.  I think Pally might get even stronger overall.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Titandrake

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #696 on: August 21, 2015, 08:54:07 pm »
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Speaking of Paladin, I finally got to draft Tirion in an arena run.

My deck also has 2 Truesilvers and 2 Consecrates, so if this doesn't go at least 7 wins I'm going to be really depressed about my Hearthstone skills.
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markusin

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #697 on: August 21, 2015, 09:12:06 pm »
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With AoE increasing scarcity and Pally's solid inspirational hero power, I'm not sure Paladin will decline that much.
Plus pally has some really strong arena cards incoming, like the +3 attack/divine shield thing, or better, the guy who gives recruits +1 attack.  I think Pally might get even stronger overall.
As far as rares go, they also get the 2/2-3 Argent Lance of 2 mana. That's not too shabby either in Arena.
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Jorbles

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #698 on: August 22, 2015, 12:39:47 am »
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I feel like Arena must be getting soft because I was at 4 wins and played against a Priest who had Stoneskin Gargoyle, Dalaran Mage, Raid Leader and Frostwolf Grunt. I don't see how you can get that far if you think those cards are good to draft unless you are playing against people who equally have no idea how Arena works when they drafted.
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Titandrake

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #699 on: August 22, 2015, 01:28:07 am »
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I feel like Arena must be getting soft because I was at 4 wins and played against a Priest who had Stoneskin Gargoyle, Dalaran Mage, Raid Leader and Frostwolf Grunt. I don't see how you can get that far if you think those cards are good to draft unless you are playing against people who equally have no idea how Arena works when they drafted.

You may have been playing at a weird hour, the other player may have won on pure tempo beating out decks with bad curves, or the rest of the deck could be good.
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