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Author Topic: Arena General Discussion  (Read 125216 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2014, 12:44:42 pm »
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Oh, you guys are talking about Flamestruck Hand Knight in here?

It's SHK vs warlord.
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2014, 12:45:49 pm »
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SHK compares with 6/6 the way Dragonling Mechanic compares with Yeti. It doesn't.
I don't think this is a fair comparison, because the primary reason that Dragonling Mechanic is bad is that the 2/1 dies to ping, and the 2/4 left behind is not exciting on its own. Otherwise, while still not as good as Yeti, it'd be somewhere between a 4/4 and 4/5 in strength, I think: consider if the stats were distributed 2/3+2/2.

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The same stats are way more valuable on a single minion because it can't be removed in pieces.
But isn't this mainly a problem because of ping? e.g. If the 2/2 eats a Frostbolt/Backstab, I am happy with that. SHK is in an unusual category because most of the other split minions have one (or both) parts as a x/1: Murloc Tidehunter, Razorfen Hunter, Dragonling Mechanic. (Razorfen Hunter is not as bad as the rest because at least ping is only killing a 1/1, which is OK.) On the other hand, Feral Spirit gives you 2/3+2/3 and is strong, which granted is largely because they come on turn 3, so it's not directly comparable.

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The comparison to 5/5 is much closer. I can imagine a world in which 4/4+2/2 is better than 5/5, but in the current set of cards and metagame, 5/5 is the winner. The main reason is that there are way more things that deal 4 damage than 5. In fact, there are only 2-3 neutral commons that can kill a 5/5 and live (Ogre, War Golem, bigger Warlord). Additionally, a couple of the more powerful cards have exactly 5 health (Yeti, Sen'jin), so trading favorably with those is a big deal.
I'm with you that 5 health is a lot better than 4. That's why Ancient Brewmaster is so much worse than Yeti/Sen'jin. But a 2/2 is also way stronger than a 2/1.

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I think you're neglecting to consider the cost of the ping. If my Warlord trades with Yeti+ping, that's a win. Versus Mage, its a net gain of 1 mana (I spent 5 to his 6), vs Rogue it's about mana neutral but costs him 5 health, and vs Druid its +1 mana +4 life. And this is a below average outcome for the Warlord. If your opponent doesn't have a ping, you're getting greater value.
SHK + Mage ping vs Yeti is net -3 mana to get a 2/2. This is reasonably even. If the 2/2 sticks and gets buffed, it's a win, but if it just dies, it's a loss. And if you're not Mage, it's not even this good.
So I'd say overall, a 5/5 handles Yeti much better than SHK.
3 mana to get a 2/2 without spending a card seems excellent to me. Imagine if the Paladin hero power were that instead of 2 mana for a 1/1... yikes. And this is vs Yeti, which is the best arena neutral common. The 2/2 may not always be useful, but it gives you options and board presence, which is always nice.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2014, 03:06:57 pm »
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SHK compares with 6/6 the way Dragonling Mechanic compares with Yeti. It doesn't.
I don't think this is a fair comparison, because the primary reason that Dragonling Mechanic is bad is that the 2/1 dies to ping, and the 2/4 left behind is not exciting on its own. Otherwise, while still not as good as Yeti, it'd be somewhere between a 4/4 and 4/5 in strength, I think: consider if the stats were distributed 2/3+2/2.
There are a lot of bad things about Mechanic, and ping is only one of them. Actually, if you force your opponent to ping the 2/1 on turn 4 instead of playing a 4-drop, that's not bad. You got a 2/4 for 2 mana and 1 card, which trades favorably with a 3/2. The problem occurs when your opponent plays a Yeti. Then your Mechanic just 0-for-1s.

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The same stats are way more valuable on a single minion because it can't be removed in pieces.
But isn't this mainly a problem because of ping? e.g. If the 2/2 eats a Frostbolt/Backstab, I am happy with that. SHK is in an unusual category because most of the other split minions have one (or both) parts as a x/1: Murloc Tidehunter, Razorfen Hunter, Dragonling Mechanic. (Razorfen Hunter is not as bad as the rest because at least ping is only killing a 1/1, which is OK.) On the other hand, Feral Spirit gives you 2/3+2/3 and is strong, which granted is largely because they come on turn 3, so it's not directly comparable.
No, it's a problem because it can be removed by minions without killing them, and because the big part can be taken out leaving the small piece to be dealt with later. Even without a ping, a Yeti kills the 2/4, leaving 4/3 vs 2/1.

Any 4 damage removal (or worse yet a Yeti) + a 2/3 or better beats SHK. If you trade for 2 cards, you're happy, but a lot of times you just get 1 card and life gain (minion hits 2/2 instead of your face). Don't get me wrong, this is good, but it's not even close to what a 6/6 or 5/6 would do. Those things are real threats to just win the game if you can't produce 6 damage asap.

Razorfen benefits from the fact that hero power on turn 3 effectively costs 3 mana, and if you don't ping the boar, it trades with nearly any 3-drop. Feral Spirit is good because of the overload, not the stats. 4/6 taunt (DotC) is way better than Feral Spirit, even though you have to pay all the mana up front.

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I'm with you that 5 health is a lot better than 4. That's why Ancient Brewmaster is so much worse than Yeti/Sen'jin. But a 2/2 is also way stronger than a 2/1.
Not sure what you're getting at. There are no 2/1s involved in this scenario. If you can only deal 4 damage, the 5/5 leaves a 5/1, which is much better than 2/1, and is better than a 2/2 if you don't have the spare mana or ability to ping it down.

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3 mana to get a 2/2 without spending a card seems excellent to me. Imagine if the Paladin hero power were that instead of 2 mana for a 1/1... yikes. And this is vs Yeti, which is the best arena neutral common. The 2/2 may not always be useful, but it gives you options and board presence, which is always nice.
It's not "excellent". It's okay. If it were a hero power it would be excellent because then you could use it whenever you want. If it were a card, it would be decent, like halfway between Engineer and Inventor. But if it's a result of some exchange, it's less useful than as a card, because you don't get it at your convenience. The whole scenario depends on what your opponent is doing with the rest of the mana.
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2014, 10:14:48 pm »
+1

There are a lot of bad things about Mechanic, and ping is only one of them. Actually, if you force your opponent to ping the 2/1 on turn 4 instead of playing a 4-drop, that's not bad. You got a 2/4 for 2 mana and 1 card, which trades favorably with a 3/2. The problem occurs when your opponent plays a Yeti. Then your Mechanic just 0-for-1s.
That's true, but the ping is not really forced, since they have the option of not pinging if they have some better play. If they happen to have an otherwise-bad hand, like say their only <=4 mana minion is a river croc, then they may be quite happy to have the ping option.

I agree that Yeti is a bad situation, but Yeti is the best arena neutral, so there are a lot of cards that have a rough time against it. This analysis is making me think that I might underrate Dragonling Mechanic.

We may just need to agree to disagree on the strength of SHK since I think the only way to resolve the question for sure is with a lot of statistics or even some A-B experiments. I'll keep an eye on my future games with SHK/FW to see which looks better in the situation.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2014, 11:33:33 pm »
+1

I'm happy to disagree. Having to make these arguments really helps me think about the cards, and having the discussion on the forum helps others think about it as well. That's why I kind of want to post my full list. I'm sure you'll find other things you disagree with. The tough things to value are 5 drops, 1 drops, tokens, taunt, silence, cantrips, and 2/3s.

One more comment about dragonling mechanic: it's usually fine on turn 4, only losing badly to a couple things, but it gets much worse later in the game. Razorfen hunter faces a similar issue, as does silver hand knight, to a somewhat lesser extent.
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2014, 02:01:28 am »
0

Got a lucky draft to go 11-3, and although I didn't have a SHK in my deck, I had it played against me 4 times, and except for the 2nd time (when I didn't think to do it), took a screenshot to analyze later.

1st time: With 7 mana, he played a Naturalize (score was 1-0) on my Baron Geddon and a SHK on an empty board. With only 4 other cards in hand, it's unlikely that he had another 5 mana minion option, so Warlord here would have been a 4/4, strictly worse. I have a Flamestrike in hand, but I'd rather not go 1-for-1 with Flamestrike, though here I use it because there's no better option. I have a Fireball, but no <=4 mana minion except a Faerie Dragon, which would get killed by his 2/2, allowing his SHK to go 2-for-1.



2nd time: Didn't get a screenshot. At the time, I recall thinking that SHK seemed slightly better than Warlord would have been, but I don't remember the situation, although I believe the Warlord would have been 5/5.

3rd time: He has a Violet Teacher out already and plays SHK on turn 5. I have a Flamestrike in hand, but with only 6 mana, I can't play it and am facing down a total of 9 damage from his board, and at 21 life, that's scary. A 5/5 Warlord would also have been good, threatening 8 damage, but then my Cobra would have been a less bad play (since in this situation he can kill it with 2/2+ping). On the other hand, I believe I went for a YOLO missiles play which hit his face once, the teacher once, and the 2/2 once, so I cleared the teacher and 2/2 with bluegill and fireblast. Certainly warlord would have been less susceptible to the missile play, so it may have an edge here.



4th time: He plays SHK on turn 5 with his board empty. Playing SHK is strictly better than Warlord here, although he had enough other cards that he may have been able to hold back Warlord and make some other play. I have a decent response, killing the 2/2 with my Kodo, pinging his knight, and playing cobra, expecting that if something goes horribly wrong then I can Flamestrike next turn. Without the 2/2 present, though, I would be able to clear his board and put down a cobra.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 02:02:32 am by blueblimp »
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ycz6

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2014, 02:43:34 am »
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So I play Noble Sacrifice on turn 1.

My opponent responds with Wisp + Dust Devil. Who does that??

And then the next turn he attacks with the Dust Devil first.

And then I somehow lost the game anyway.
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2014, 03:31:57 am »
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For what it's worth, Noble Sacrifice is rarely a good turn 1 play. You typically want to save it until you can play it in a way that protects an important minion or is likely to trade with something having 2 health. If you play it on turn 1, there are too many ways that your opponent can trigger it without losing anything important. For example, since you were up against a Shaman, if he summons a totem and it's a Searing Totem, then when he attacks with the totem next turn, it'll trade with the Defender without any need to spend a card, and at just 1 mana more (since the totem cost 2 mana and the secret cost 1).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 03:34:31 am by blueblimp »
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theory

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2014, 09:50:54 am »
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Bah, I really thought this deck was gonna take me to 12 wins: http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/b/546128510

Played six Druids and lost to three of them.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2014, 10:52:45 am »
+1

<examples of SHK being played>

The thing you have to watch out with with this, is that if you only look at situations where SHK is being played, it's going to be biased towards it being good.
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2014, 02:04:47 pm »
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<examples of SHK being played>

The thing you have to watch out with with this, is that if you only look at situations where SHK is being played, it's going to be biased towards it being good.
Good point. It'd be better to wait until I get SHK in a draft and see whether I'm happier drawing it than Warlord. (Kinda obvious maybe.)
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blueblimp

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2014, 02:10:36 pm »
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Bah, I really thought this deck was gonna take me to 12 wins: http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/b/546128510

Played six Druids and lost to three of them.
Yeah, what's with all the Druids in arena recently? Statistically it's mediocre (http://hearthstats.net/june) and I don't like it much because of low amounts of good common removal compared to Mage and Rogue. I understand the popularity in constructed since there at least it's among the best classes.
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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2014, 03:38:01 pm »
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Bah, I really thought this deck was gonna take me to 12 wins: http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/b/546128510

Played six Druids and lost to three of them.
Yeah, what's with all the Druids in arena recently? Statistically it's mediocre (http://hearthstats.net/june) and I don't like it much because of low amounts of good common removal compared to Mage and Rogue. I understand the popularity in constructed since there at least it's among the best classes.

I'm not sure, some of my best runs have been with Druid. There are good common minions, like Druid of the claw, which is why I think its popular.
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theory

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2014, 04:52:27 pm »
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I think Druid is very strong in Arena, but lacks a little bit of the roflstomp madness that an amazing Mage/Rogue deck can pull off.  I rarely do poorly with Druid but also don't get double-digit wins.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2014, 04:56:31 pm »
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I posted something about arena Druid in the other thread

I think Druid is pretty good in arena. The big thing for me is that the average card quality is higher than with any other class, because there's very few bad Druid cards. You less often have to take Murloc Raider because your other choices were Repentance and Eye for and Eye, or Doomsayer because the other choices were Ice Block and Spellbender, etc.

I think all of the classes besides Hunter, Warlock, and Priest are pretty close in terms of how good they are in arena, and it comes down more to what you're more comfortable with.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2014, 05:06:57 pm »
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I think Druid is very strong in Arena, but lacks a little bit of the roflstomp madness that an amazing Mage/Rogue deck can pull off.  I rarely do poorly with Druid but also don't get double-digit wins.

The most roflstompy Druid deck that I've had is:
0 - 2x innervate
1 - naturalize, leper
2 - 2x wrath, ooze, juggler, croc, young panda
3 - raging worgen, crusader, 2x cleric
4 - swipe, defender, 2x inventor, keeper, ogre magi, senjin, spellbreaker, knight
5 - 2x dotc, venture co
6 - starfire, commander, frost
7 -
8 - ironbark

If I can Innervate out one of the 5-drops and protect it with Wraths, Swipe, Naturalize, or Cleric buffs, I can get in for a ton of damage and then use the chargers/Starfire for reach or protect the board with Frost/Ironbark. And even if I don't draw the Innervates early, the whole deck is solid, with the only bad card being the Leper Gnome. This deck went 12 wins pretty easily.
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mpsprs

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2014, 06:30:59 pm »
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Just finished up my most recent arena: http://arenamastery.com/ELP6

When I drafted it, I thought it would be a disaster.  I was offered very few 2-drops, and not many hugely powerful minions either.  Somehow I squeezed 7 wins out of it though.  I decided to test out streaming/recording for the last four games (2-2).  I'd love any feedback if you have the time/energy/whatever.  Alas, my connection seemed to reset a few times during the broadcast, so the video is split into 5 parts with 6 second breaks between each piece.  You can find them all at my twitch page: http://www.twitch.tv/mpsprs/

As to the recent topics:  I also saw a bunch of druids.  Four in 10 games, lost to two. 

Frost Wolf Warlord vs. SHK:  I had FWW.  With this deck, I'd have preferred SHK, since I had so few cheap minions.  My recollection from the unrecorded games is that this held true: FWW got played as a 4-4 multiple times (and the sun cleric as an expensive 3-2 regularly as well).  It did have it's moment though in a later game.  Then in my last, facing what I guessed was mirror entity, I'd have preferred SHK again (though it turned out not to matter).  I guess I'd say that if it was reasonably close in this deck, FWW is probably my preferred choice.

Edit:  And the pack at the end gave me my second legendary!  You are reading the post of the proud owner of Millhouse Manastorm!!!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 06:33:04 pm by mpsprs »
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nkirbit

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2014, 10:57:59 pm »
0

http://imgur.com/3nMPYbi

I always get frustrated when I face hunter combos.. either they don't have it and the decks or bad, and they do and they're unbeatable.  I thought I'd have a try playing a constructed deck in arena.
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Lekkit

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2014, 02:15:39 am »
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Looks pretty solid.
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Jdaki

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2014, 08:33:52 am »
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Looks great! Although FOUR UTH and Buzzards might be too much (with only one Timber wolf)

Shaman Run with a beautiful curve imo:
1: Forked Lightning and Lightning Bolt
2: Axe, Windfury, Ooze, Berserker, Flametongue, Owl, Loot Hoarder, 2x Mad Bomber, Pyromancer
3: Hex, Acolyte of Pain, Worgen, 2x Raid Leader, Unbound Elemental
4: 2x Yeti, Cult master, Dark Iron Dwarf, Spell Breaker
5: Doomhammer, Earth Elemental, Frostwolf Warlord (definitely better in shaman deck)
6: Ogre, 2x Elemental
10: Deathwing
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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2014, 09:27:51 am »
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I just had two shaman runs. Both went to six wins. This deck looks like my second deck. I got storm wind champion I. Both decks though, which really good for shaman in arena.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2014, 11:36:09 am »
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http://imgur.com/3nMPYbi

I'd be very interested to see how this turns out.

Shaman Run with a beautiful curve imo:
Only problem I see is at the 3 spot. Raid leader is a really weak 3-drop, and you typically don't want to play acolyte or hex on turn 3. But having four 3/2s help in this department, since they are viable turn 3 plays.
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nkirbit

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2014, 05:44:05 pm »
0

http://imgur.com/3nMPYbi

I'd be very interested to see how this turns out.

I went 4-3.  One of the losses was exactly what I expected to have happen in my losses:  I didn't draw enough relevant cards early, my opponent did a good job of playing around unleash, and I just didn't have enough to come back.

One loss was extremely, extremely flukey.  I was on the play and actually had a good curve.  Turn 2 crocolisk, turn 3 animal companion, turn 4 houndmaster, turn 5 houndmaster.  However, my opponents play were:  turn 4 innervate Black Knight, turn 5 coin black knight.  It was still a close game after that, but getting double black knighted is brutal.

I also lost to a druid who played 4 swipes.  Swipes are good against hunter.

I probably could've drafted it better.  I passed up good 2 drops for cards like Unleash, Hunters mark, when I really should've taken the 2 drops... but making the best deck wasn't really the goal here, I went all out for the combos after I saw leeroy.. don't regret making that choice even if I potentially gave up a few wins.
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Titandrake

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2014, 02:34:06 am »
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One of the sillier drafts I've gotten. Get your predictions in, folks.
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KingZog3

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Re: Arena General Discussion
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2014, 07:32:14 am »
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One of the sillier drafts I've gotten. Get your predictions in, folks.

If that doesn't go 12 wins, I don't know what should.
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