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Author Topic: Constructed General Discussion  (Read 270445 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #350 on: January 12, 2015, 11:12:43 pm »
+1

Nah, Grove tender is awesome.  Your deck is designed to have perfect mana utilization based on a Grove Tenders kicking you in gear.  Your opponent's deck is tuned to have perfect mana utilization without the help.  Then you play Grove Tender turn 4 (turn 3 if you have zombie chow or claw) and both players are getting 3 innervates over the rest of the game, your opponent wastes theirs but you are ready.

I mean, I think it definitely can be good.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #351 on: January 12, 2015, 11:14:08 pm »
0

Obviously the Warlock hero power allows you to totally circumvent what I just said, but that's why it's a modal card, you just don't choose the ramp mode against Warlock.  And conveniently you make their doomguards not-free instead.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #352 on: January 12, 2015, 11:18:21 pm »
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Yeah that's the theory, but you really have to be able to nail your modified mana curve. The problem is that a lot of control decks were never planning on hitting their curve perfectly, and will happily use the extra mana just as well as you can, so you didn't give yourself any advantage.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #353 on: January 14, 2015, 06:56:36 pm »
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Yeah that's the theory, but you really have to be able to nail your modified mana curve. The problem is that a lot of control decks were never planning on hitting their curve perfectly, and will happily use the extra mana just as well as you can, so you didn't give yourself any advantage.
You gotta pair it with other assaults on their mana efficiency.  Earmark your keepers for acolytes and let duplicate proc on mechwarper
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #354 on: January 24, 2015, 03:04:40 pm »
0

I opened a Steamwheedle Sniper the other day and made space for it in my Hunter deck. It fits in a mid-range-y style of play (one where you fight for control in the early game and then just face rush after hopefully briefly establishing control). It suffers from not really fitting into any tribe (beast or deathrattle) but its power is really good and its stats are fine. Playing it turn 4 can be pretty good if you don't have a 4 drop in hand. Anyone else using this card? My overall impression is that it can be good if you have it because it's very versatile, but it is hardly necessary to any constructed deck.
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KingZog3

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #355 on: January 24, 2015, 03:08:48 pm »
0

The reason Aucheni is good is because not only does it combo with Circle, but it has 5 heal so you can potentially use your hero power more than once to deal damage. Sniper dies to easy to really take advantage of the ability too much.
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #356 on: January 24, 2015, 05:38:44 pm »
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The reason Aucheni is good is because not only does it combo with Circle, but it has 5 heal so you can potentially use your hero power more than once to deal damage. Sniper dies to easy to really take advantage of the ability too much.

You don't really need to take advantage of it that much for it to be worth it. Once is usually enough for it to earn you a good trade or a free kill of a 2 drop.
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ashersky

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #357 on: January 24, 2015, 07:34:29 pm »
0

I just opened my second Dark Wispers!  Now I'm tempted to try to rework my token deck...
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ashersky

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #358 on: January 24, 2015, 07:35:27 pm »
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Also, does anyone run Mech-Bear-Cat or whatever it is called?  I thought about replacing Cairne with it in my Ramp deck...
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #359 on: January 24, 2015, 11:06:22 pm »
0

I just opened Mogor the Ogre, which doesn't seem terrible. Does anyone have him? Do you have a use for him? I was thinking of just putting him into my ramp deck and seeing how he does.
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Titandrake

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #360 on: January 24, 2015, 11:53:46 pm »
0

Mech-Bear-Cat: I love this card in Arena, but I'm not sure if it'll be as good in constructed. Since it has 7 attack, it's likely to get hit by BGH. I've heard Piloted-Sky Golem > Cairne in the current meta because it kills Belcher, Loatheb, and all the other 5 health minions. If you have them, I'd try that replacement first.

I think Mech-Bear-Cat compares infavorably to Toshley. Also 6 mana, 5/7 instead of 7/6 is a better stat spread IMO, and I don't see Mech-Bear-Cat getting more than 2 spare parts on average. Of course, Toshley is legendary though...

Mogor: He's funny. I don't know if he's good or not, but you don't run Mogor the Ogre for that reason. I'm trying to decide whether Mogor helps vs hurts you if you have few big minions vs lots of small minions. If you miss, you might kill a 1/1 with your big dude, but the other player will also have a lot of misses that run into your big guys. It's hard to call...
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #361 on: January 25, 2015, 12:22:43 am »
0

Mogor the Ogor seems decent as a 3rd copy of "Spellbreaker" for aggro Warrior, in my mind.  When handlock drops belchers or taunt moltens, it can give you a decent chance to slip past to the face.  I think Ogre Brute is already good for that archetype, so the insane logic of it kind of stacks with itself when you can take "attack it and hope for the best?" from 50% up to 75%.

I don't have Mogor the Ogor, so I can't try it.  It seems like a good idea to me though.  The other classes can tech for handlock with direct damage, but Warrior only gets Mortal Strike, which is highly dependent on your opponent forgetting that Mortal Strike is a card.  So that's why it would be a Warrior only thing.
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Dekryr

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #362 on: January 26, 2015, 07:16:11 pm »
0

Mech-Bear-Cat: I love this card in Arena, but I'm not sure if it'll be as good in constructed. Since it has 7 attack, it's likely to get hit by BGH. I've heard Piloted-Sky Golem > Cairne in the current meta because it kills Belcher, Loatheb, and all the other 5 health minions. If you have them, I'd try that replacement first.

I think Mech-Bear-Cat compares infavorably to Toshley. Also 6 mana, 5/7 instead of 7/6 is a better stat spread IMO, and I don't see Mech-Bear-Cat getting more than 2 spare parts on average. Of course, Toshley is legendary though...

Mogor: He's funny. I don't know if he's good or not, but you don't run Mogor the Ogre for that reason. I'm trying to decide whether Mogor helps vs hurts you if you have few big minions vs lots of small minions. If you miss, you might kill a 1/1 with your big dude, but the other player will also have a lot of misses that run into your big guys. It's hard to call...

I think most people are replacing Cairne with Sneed's, but Piloted Sky Golem is also OK. Most ramps already have TBK and Sylvanas at 6 mana I think, so Sneed's being more isn't a huge deal. Sneed's doesn't die to BGH and trades with belchers and 5/5's, they are all weak to silence of course. Toshley is the better option if you want the spare parts for whatever reason.
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ashersky

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #363 on: January 26, 2015, 07:34:54 pm »
0

Mech-Bear-Cat: I love this card in Arena, but I'm not sure if it'll be as good in constructed. Since it has 7 attack, it's likely to get hit by BGH. I've heard Piloted-Sky Golem > Cairne in the current meta because it kills Belcher, Loatheb, and all the other 5 health minions. If you have them, I'd try that replacement first.

I think Mech-Bear-Cat compares infavorably to Toshley. Also 6 mana, 5/7 instead of 7/6 is a better stat spread IMO, and I don't see Mech-Bear-Cat getting more than 2 spare parts on average. Of course, Toshley is legendary though...

Mogor: He's funny. I don't know if he's good or not, but you don't run Mogor the Ogre for that reason. I'm trying to decide whether Mogor helps vs hurts you if you have few big minions vs lots of small minions. If you miss, you might kill a 1/1 with your big dude, but the other player will also have a lot of misses that run into your big guys. It's hard to call...

I think most people are replacing Cairne with Sneed's, but Piloted Sky Golem is also OK. Most ramps already have TBK and Sylvanas at 6 mana I think, so Sneed's being more isn't a huge deal. Sneed's doesn't die to BGH and trades with belchers and 5/5's, they are all weak to silence of course. Toshley is the better option if you want the spare parts for whatever reason.

I already run Sneed and don't have Slyvanas or TBK.  Basically I'm just looking for a good value minion that might be better than Cairne, which often feels underwhelming.

I also still run a Chillwind Yeti and a Sen'jin, which I'd replace but I'm not sure with what...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #364 on: January 26, 2015, 10:39:32 pm »
0

If you're not playing a mech deck, boulderfist ogre is better than mech bear cat. Also, you should craft sylvanas.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #365 on: January 27, 2015, 01:12:53 pm »
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Undertaker nerfs. This is a big change for the two most popular aggro decks, I think. Now it only gains +1 attack, not +1 attack / +1 health

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/15700587539
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:14:53 pm by Twistedarcher »
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #366 on: January 27, 2015, 01:14:50 pm »
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Undertaker nerfs. This is a HUGE change for the two most popular aggro decks. Now it only gains +1 attack, not +1 attack / +1 health

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/15700587539

This is really big. This will have a huge effect on almost every aggro deck.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #367 on: January 27, 2015, 01:20:26 pm »
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Yeah. I'm actually a bit sad to see the change -- I felt like I could handle the aggro decks better than the control decks, and I was generally happy to play hunter. I assume we'll be seeing more control decks on the ladder now (more handlock...yay)
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KingZog3

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #368 on: January 27, 2015, 01:31:37 pm »
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I think a better nerf might have been to change it to a 1/1 or a 0/2. But I think the nerf is ok.
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #369 on: January 27, 2015, 01:39:22 pm »
0

Yeah, I think it's good because you wouldn't really consider making an aggro deck without Undertaker, but it makes them a lot harder to play now. I think I'll probably be switching to Mech Mage over Jeeves Mage and Hunter (which both get a lot of power from Undertakers).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #370 on: January 27, 2015, 02:17:16 pm »
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That sucks. I guess just too many people playing Undertaker Hunter... I don't know if Undertaker was the problem (I'm looking at you Mad Scientist), but maybe this makes ladder less Huntery?
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Dekryr

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #371 on: January 27, 2015, 07:10:47 pm »
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That sucks. I guess just too many people playing Undertaker Hunter... I don't know if Undertaker was the problem (I'm looking at you Mad Scientist), but maybe this makes ladder less Huntery?

Not to straddle the fence, but I think both were/are a problem. Every agro deck is using undertaker and it almost always trades up. At least now it can be dealt with with other 1 drops. Losing games because you can't deal with a 1-drop, which will just keep growing out of range is really bad and poor design. It needed a change, not sure if this is the right one but at least it's something.

Mad Scientist is probably a more powerful card than undertaker, but it's only really viable in 2 classes at the moment, so it will take a long time for Blizz to figure out it's broken. But that card is ridiculously good. If you aren't putting Scientist in your Mage or Hunter decks, you better have a really, really good reason.

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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #372 on: January 27, 2015, 08:21:11 pm »
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Scientist>> Undertaker, for sure.  I don't know how much of Scientists' power Blizzard is aware of, since they sometimes seem to be ok with autoincludes in their design. 
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #373 on: January 27, 2015, 08:42:30 pm »
+2

One drop design is this interesting thing.  It's really awkward to design them right.  The thing is that in the agnostic game "mana efficiency game" the abstract concept of, what if i built a deck with 1s, 2s, 3s, etc, how would I maximize my chance of spending all my mana every turn with minimal use of hero power to do that, in that minigame, one drops blow.  They blow at that in Magic too, and they blow even harder in Hearthstone.  So if you want to entice people to actually play one drops, you either need to give them the busted warlock hero power, where the mana efficiency game is trivially easy using any deck and just activating hero power the appropriate amount of times, or you need to hand out one drops that give so much meaning to being 1 pt. ahead on your mana efficiency early on that they are insane.  Which means you basically need to make them as powerful as two drops, but then print 1 on their mana cost and pretend its ok.  It's a lot easier to get away with that if it's Mana Wyrm and class restricted.  Anything neutral is gonna become pervasive.

You really don't need turn 1 one mana creatures to make a good card game, even though Blizzard seems to think so.  Playable one drops are inherently swingy since they provide you some tempo in the first three turns, but do nothing if you draw them later on.  If they're not in your opening hand, they don't offer anything to the mana efficiency minigame.  1 drops like Earth shock and abusive sarge are different, of course, those are good.

I've watched zoo mirrors in modern in mtg, which revolves around 2 mana quality 1 drops duking it out.  I haven't ever found it particularly fascinating.

I think it'd be a good plan to keep all neutral 1 drop turn one plays at about leper gnome power level where only warlock is interested in them, and let the other eight classes design strategies around turns 2-10 instead of printing stuff like undertaker that forces people to play that one drop just because it's a 2 drop.
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markusin

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #374 on: January 27, 2015, 09:24:21 pm »
0

Hey cool, now I can comfortably skip Holy Smite type cards. I'm just wondering what will happen to Zombie Chow. Without T1 undertaker, I predict current aggro decks are going to be smacked around by Chow quite a bit.
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