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[luser]

Ok, I liked ashersky's idea, but changed it a bit to make it fairer for the Mafia. Changes to the original setup in the 2nd post.

I did come up with a second way to do this idea. Ashersky's suggestion is a lot more clean cut than mine, but I really like the atmosphere of mine. When a Townie fires an empty gun, they become Loved (take one more vote to be lynched). Basically, instead of punishing Mafia, it helps Town. But why would a Townie shoot themselves N1? They can't get Hated until after then. So pregame, Mafia can make people Hated. The number of people they make hated is dependent upon the number of bullets they choose to start with. Less bullets, more pregame hating (hey, that sounds like Fifa). This creates a couple cute things:

That looks broken to me, on day 1 town decides on no-lynch and that everybody must shoot. Mafia will kill two people but then town will test each member by putting them to L will generate couple of IC until we will hit a scum that will be lynched.

[2.71828.....]

/in

[Hydrad]

/in

[silverspawn]

if i've never played a mafia game before, is this a good place to start? I think I got how it works.

[mail-mi]

if i've never played a mafia game before, is this a good place to start? I think I got how it works.

If I were you, I'd start here

[silverspawn]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

[sudgy]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

The main thing is, this game has way shorter deadlines than normal games, because it's a blitz game.

[2.71828.....]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

The main thing is, this game has way shorter deadlines than normal games, because it's a blitz game.

Shorter deadlines won't be a problem for silverspawn I think.  For some new players maybe, but I think that silverspawn is active enough on the forum that he shouldn't have any trouble and it might actually make for a more enjoyable first game as things need to happen faster. 

[sudgy]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

The main thing is, this game has way shorter deadlines than normal games, because it's a blitz game.

Shorter deadlines won't be a problem for silverspawn I think.  For some new players maybe, but I think that silverspawn is active enough on the forum that he shouldn't have any trouble and it might actually make for a more enjoyable first game as things need to happen faster.

It's more that it won't be a normal mafia game.  Blitz changes the whole game.

[Archetype]

I've been busy with other projects, so I've been sort of neglecting this. It's been in the back of my mind, but I've been wanting to do other things than solve this problem. I have a couple more ideas.

An addition to ashersky's idea:

- For every bullet that a scum doesn't Load out of the maximum 2, they lose 1 Hated.

And a problem:

Have everyone shoot themselves N1. Scum then loads 2 bullets. 2 people die. Best case scenario for scum, 2 v 4 on D2. However, scum is now Hated x4, so one dies. Now its 1 v 4. If the remaining Mafia member is lynched, game over for scum (most likely scenario). If a Townie is lynched, they can still all shoot themselves. That makes it 1 v 2. But scum is x2 Hated. So he dies leaving Town the winner.

So, the solution? Maybe load up to 3 bullets? If scum is lynched D2, that leaves 2 v 3. But scum is Hated x3, so they die. Now its 1 v 3. Scum basically cannot win at this point. So I think the bonus for Town needs to be changed.

Maybe for the Loved thing? If they have a Hated, they lose it. If they don't, scum get Hated.

Ooh! Ok! I think I've got something...

For every bullet Town doesn't Load, they become Loved the following day.
If Town shoots with an Empty gun, they become Loved for the rest of the game.

Scum have X bullets. Pregame, they may exchange up to Y bullets. For every 2 they exchange, they choose 1 Townie. They gain 1 Hated.

That could get pretty boring though. Especially if scum loads no bullets and becomes Loved x2 every day.

Man. I'm stumped.

[silverspawn]

well, noone said it's a terrible idea, that's good enough for me

/in

it'll be fun 

[mail-mi]

/out

[nkirbit]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

[nkirbit]

I've been busy with other projects, so I've been sort of neglecting this. It's been in the back of my mind, but I've been wanting to do other things than solve this problem. I have a couple more ideas.

An addition to ashersky's idea:

- For every bullet that a scum doesn't Load out of the maximum 2, they lose 1 Hated.

And a problem:

Have everyone shoot themselves N1. Scum then loads 2 bullets. 2 people die. Best case scenario for scum, 2 v 4 on D2. However, scum is now Hated x4, so one dies. Now its 1 v 4. If the remaining Mafia member is lynched, game over for scum (most likely scenario). If a Townie is lynched, they can still all shoot themselves. That makes it 1 v 2. But scum is x2 Hated. So he dies leaving Town the winner.

So, the solution? Maybe load up to 3 bullets? If scum is lynched D2, that leaves 2 v 3. But scum is Hated x3, so they die. Now its 1 v 3. Scum basically cannot win at this point. So I think the bonus for Town needs to be changed.

Maybe for the Loved thing? If they have a Hated, they lose it. If they don't, scum get Hated.

Ooh! Ok! I think I've got something...

For every bullet Town doesn't Load, they become Loved the following day.
If Town shoots with an Empty gun, they become Loved for the rest of the game.

Scum have X bullets. Pregame, they may exchange up to Y bullets. For every 2 they exchange, they choose 1 Townie. They gain 1 Hated.

That could get pretty boring though. Especially if scum loads no bullets and becomes Loved x2 every day.

Man. I'm stumped.

Yeah, if I'm understanding the setup correctly, the game is completely broken.  Town should win 100% of the time, and they can do it no-lynching every day.

[Archetype]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

Yes to all of them.

I'm still trying to think of other rewards for Town. Let's break this down...(WARNING: Saying whatever I'm thinking)

So, there are 2 ways to interact with votes: Votes other people cast and the votes you cast.

We should also keep the theme of the game in mind: It's all on you. Your decisions shouldn't affect fellow Town members.

So, let's look at votes other people cast. Staying true to the theme, we're allowed to change how scum's votes are cast. Simplest method here is to say that a reward makes scum not be able to vote. Or not have their vote mean anything. Except...how do you individualize that? You can't make scum's vote go down lower than 0 (well, can you?...no. That would get confusing). And that reward would effect everyone else by having the votes scum cast against them also mean nothing. So I guess what you could do is say, "If you shoot an Empty gun, Mafia's vote count as nothing against you the following day."

Does this have any broken confirmations? X people on a wagon, at least 1 is scum. If they get ran up to the lynch number and don't die, they know at least 1 scum is on the wagon. Is that OK? I thinking no...So votes would need to be added somehow that make the claimed Townie not be so safe when he wants people to vote for him. Maybe giving scum a vote when they bow out?...No. That would stack up too quickly. Just against them? Eh, no. The people that dodge think they may be shot because they are pro town. Someone who is pro town won't have fear of being lynched anyway. They do have their vote though. Hmm...

Let's focus on the individual player's vote then:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day."
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day."

Or, let's make it a little more crazy:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day when voting against scum"
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day when voting against scum"

That may work...but seems unfun. Everyone claims what they did the night before and then just work it out from there.

Maybe bowing out isn't the best way to do this. Maybe instead of bowing out you can "spin the cylinder". The chamber number for each gun is told at the beginning of each night. Scum can load more cylinders than just the one used that night. If you don't want to shoot the bullet, you can spin the cylinder. You can spin it any number of times. Each time you spin it, you take a penalty (probably 1 Hated). That way everyone has to shoot, but if you think you're in danger you can take 1 Hated in exchange for living.

Wow. I think that a lot. Bolded it as a tl;dr version for anyone who doesn't want to read my thought process. I'll think on the statistics a bit more, then hopefully come back with something good.

[Archetype]

well, noone said it's a terrible idea, that's good enough for me

/in

it'll be fun 

Glad to have you aboard!

Have you read the links in the OP? I highly suggest you do. I also recommend you read this game.

[pacovf]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

Yes to all of them.

That doesn't actually answer the first question

Let's focus on the individual player's vote then:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day."
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day."

Or, let's make it a little more crazy:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day when voting against scum"
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day when voting against scum"

I understand why you discard the second option, but why do you discard the first? It seems obvious to me that any rule that has visible consequences only for one faction gives too much information to town, but that's not the case in the first version.

Maybe instead of bowing out you can "spin the cylinder". The chamber number for each gun is told at the beginning of each night. Scum can load more cylinders than just the one used that night. If you don't want to shoot the bullet, you can spin the cylinder. You can spin it any number of times. Each time you spin it, you take a penalty (probably 1 Hated). That way everyone has to shoot, but if you think you're in danger you can take 1 Hated in exchange for living.

Spin the cylinder any number of times, or just spin the cylinder randomly? Also I would guess now the bullets would stay in the cylinder, which means that you are going to die, eventually.

[ashersky]

Hated/Loved can't be checked without running people up to L-1 (or whatever).  That's how you keep it from being too broken.

Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly.

[Archetype]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

Yes to all of them.

That doesn't actually answer the first question

Yes.

Let's focus on the individual player's vote then:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day."
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day."

Or, let's make it a little more crazy:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day when voting against scum"
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day when voting against scum"

I understand why you discard the second option, but why do you discard the first? It seems obvious to me that any rule that has visible consequences only for one faction gives too much information to town, but that's not the case in the first version.

If each player claims what they did the night before, they can pinpoint who the doublevoters are. Scum can lie here, so you vote amongst the claimants. Have 2 people amongst this group vote for someone else in the group. Add votes from outside the group as needed. This confirms some people as Town as well as lynches a scum. Its more complicated than that, but the main thing is that everyone claims what they did the night before so that the double vote thing isn't a surprise. It's possible, but the penalty for Town would have to be "scum becomes Loved", but that could get weird.

Maybe instead of bowing out you can "spin the cylinder". The chamber number for each gun is told at the beginning of each night. Scum can load more cylinders than just the one used that night. If you don't want to shoot the bullet, you can spin the cylinder. You can spin it any number of times. Each time you spin it, you take a penalty (probably 1 Hated). That way everyone has to shoot, but if you think you're in danger you can take 1 Hated in exchange for living.

Spin the cylinder any number of times, or just spin the cylinder randomly? Also I would guess now the bullets would stay in the cylinder, which means that you are going to die, eventually.

This was a bit rushed. Each time you spin the cylinder, you move one chamber over. You get Hated by one for every time you spin (for the following day only). I was originally thinking that the cyclinder would be a set amount of chambers and so if Town kept spinning they'd eventually die. But since Town can spin different amounts of times, they can stopat different times. This makes it more difficult for scum to send out bullets and me as a mod to keep track of things. Especially since this is a blitz game. So, instead, I was thinking this:

Scum has 12 bullets total. They can load 0-4 (3?) bullets into Town's guns. They can load multiple bullets into the same player's gun. Bullets given out to the same player are lined up by capsule one by one in the cyclinder. Each night, a player can spin their cyclinder. This moves the cyclinder over one capsule. Doing this makes them Hated the following day. They can do this as many times as they want, but each time they do they get one more Hated. At the end of each night, player's fire their gun. If the current capsule has a bullet, they die. If it doesn't, they live. The gun's are emptied at the beginning of each night. So, bullets present from previous nights aren't used the following nights.

So, players have to guess how many bullets they think scum would put into their gun. To be totally certain, they can spin the cyclinder 5 times...but then they die the following day guaranteed (same thing with having a maximum of 3 bullets loaded).

If scum are too strong, no hates could be given to players who correctly spin past a capsule holding a bullet. Another possibility would be to have Hated roll over from night to night. This would make Town be more hesitant to share their night actions...which is a good thing, I think.

[Archetype]

Hated/Loved can't be checked without running people up to L-1 (or whatever).  That's how you keep it from being too broken.

Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly.

My main thing with the Loved thing is someone can say "Hey, I'm loved!" players can run them up to L-1 and then they're conf!Town. It wastes time...but not too much if this fact is shared D1 and accepted that it would be the protocol should someone say that. Hateds could be added over the course of the game, or pregame, but that just delays the inevitable. There could be no Loved, just "remove a Hate" but that would have to make players not know wether or not they are Hated. And even if they aren't, why take the risk and shoot yourself? The safer move would be to bow out.

I do agree with your second point.

[pacovf]

I do agree with your second point.

I don't agree with the second point:

"Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly."

This is only true if "extra votes or no votes" can only be gotten by certain alignments. If mafia can also gain/lose votes by doing something, then knowing how many votes someone gets doesn't give you any information. Also, it stands to reason that the number of votes someone has against him should be hidden, and only revealed when he/she reaches L, which makes the "systematic check" much less systematic.

Mind, I'm just arguing for the sake of completeness, not because I think this is the best solution.

[silverspawn]

Have you read the links in the OP?

ya

[ashersky]

I do agree with your second point.

I don't agree with the second point:

"Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly."

This is only true if "extra votes or no votes" can only be gotten by certain alignments. If mafia can also gain/lose votes by doing something, then knowing how many votes someone gets doesn't give you any information. Also, it stands to reason that the number of votes someone has against him should be hidden, and only revealed when he/she reaches L, which makes the "systematic check" much less systematic.

Mind, I'm just arguing for the sake of completeness, not because I think this is the best solution.

If the mechanic is "if you target scum, you are hated" then everyone claims who they targeted and gets run up to L-1.  When someone dies, you've caught scum.  That's what I meant.

[mail-mi]

/out

[jotheonah]

/in if we ever figure out the rules