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[Archetype]

Welcome to ZM19: Russian Roulette Mafia!

Signups:
1. Jimmmmm
2. ashersky
3. scott_pilgrim
4. chairs
5. e
6. Hydrad
7. silverspawn
8. jotheonah
9.

Basic Mafia Ruleset

CHANGES IN RED BECAUSE RED GOES FASTER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills. There will be a zero tolerance policy for personal attacks. Please don't do it!

Game Summary:

Mafia is a social deduction game.  There is an "informed minority" (the mafia) and an "uninformed majority" (the town).  The mafia know who each other are, and are trying to be the only people left alive.  The town doesn't know who anybody else is, and are trying to find and lynch all of the mafia.  The mafia, to make sure the town doesn't know who they are, must pretend to be town to win.  The mafia usually can kill at night, to help them in being the only ones left alive.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines).  If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.  If your Night action was mandatory, it will be decided randomly.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mods lock the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. There will be 96 Hour Day deadlines and 24 Hour Night deadlines. This is subject to change (at the mod's discretion) based upon player count/availability/other.
5. Whoever has the most votes on them at deadline will be lynched if a majority hasn't been reached. Ties will be decided by random.org.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.
11. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, colored text is reserved for the Mods.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game. This includes incorrectly tallied Vote Counts.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity or upon request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.10 without further notice.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator.  Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request).  Requests to /out are final once submitted.  There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed.Please make sure you understand the commitment you are making to the game before joining.
10.If a player wants to /out, they may be replaced by anyone on D1-N1.  On D2-N2, no one from the speccy may replace the player.  After this, a player who /outs may not be replaced.  It is up to the mod's discretion whether to modkill the player or do something else under these circumstances. This will be my guideline for replacements, though I may change that based on the individual situation.

Helpful Links:

Wiki Links:

--Main Wiki Page

--Newbie Guide

--Frequently Asked Questions

--Commonly Used Abbreviations

--Mafia Theory

Forum Links:

--Vacation/Limited Access announcements

--Mafia Lingo/Dictionary

[Archetype]

Setup:

2 Mafia Goons
7 Townies

Mechanics:
- Each Townie is holding a gun to their head. At the beginning of the game, each gun's status is Empty.
- Mafia start with 12 "bullets". Pregame, they may exchange up to 8 of them. For every 2 they exchange, they choose a player. They become Hated and take one less vote to be lynched at the start of the game.
- Instead of a factional kill, the Mafia loads bullets. Each night, a Goon can target 0, 1, or 2 Townies and secretly place a bullet into their gun. This changes each gun's status to Loaded.
- For every bullet they didn't load out of the maximum 2, they choose a player. They become Hated and take one less vote to be lynched.
- Each night, a Townie has two choices: Fire the Gun or Bow Out
- If they fire a Loaded gun, they die.
- If they fire an Empty gun, they become Loved and take more less vote to be lynched.
- If they bow out with a Loaded gun, they live.
- If they bow out with an Empty gun, they become Hated and take one less vote to be lynched.
- Hated-ness stacks. Players are never notified whether or not they are hated or how much so.
- If, at the beginning of any given day, a player is Hated more than or equal to the number of votes required to lynch, they immediately die.
- When scum hand out "Hated", it will not count if it would make the player die at the beginning of following day. 

Other Notes:
- Deaths due to Hated-ness and gunshot are indiscernible.
- If a consensus hasn't been reached by deadline, each Hated counts as a Vote against the player.
- If a Townie fails to submit an action by deadline, they will default to "Fire the Gun".
- If a Goon fails to submit an action by deadline, they will default to "Target 0 players".

PMs:

Welcome, [Player Name], to ZM19: Russian Roulette Mafia! You are a Mafia Goon. You win when the majority of players are Mafia-aligned or nothing can prevent that from occurring

[Player Name] is your partner in crime. You can talk with him here during the night: [QT Link]
You have a collection of 4 bullets. Each night, one of you must target 0, 1, or 2 other players and secretly load a bullet into their guns. This will change the gun's status to Loaded. If they choose to fire a loaded gun, they die! But if they fire an empty gun, you will become Hated and take one less vote to be lynched the following day.

/confirm by posting in your QT or by messaging me back.

Welcome, [Player Name], to ZM19: Russian Roulette Mafia! You are a Vanilla Townie. You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated. A Town-aligned player does not still need to be alive.

You have a gun pressed to your head. It's status is Empty.
Each night, you have two choices: Fire the Gun or Bow Out.
If you fire a Loaded gun, you die.
If you fire an Empty gun, whichever Mafia member loaded the bullets becomes Hated and takes one less vote to be lynched the following day.
If you bow out with a Loaded gun, you live.
If you bow out with an Empty gun, you become Hated and take one less vote to be lynched for the rest of the game.

/confirm by messaging me back

[Archetype]

This game's flavor and setup are derived from the infamous game of Russian Roulette. You can read all about it here!

If you notice anything potentially game-breaking about the setup, please feel free to notify me. I'd rather make changes now than during the game.

[Jimmmmm]

/in

ZM is blitz right?

What's your definition of a personal attack?

[Archetype]

/in

ZM is blitz right?

What's your definition of a personal attack?

The same stuff, but an emphasis on this:

In practice, remember that it is just a game, and though a player may be lying to you and distorting every word you say, that player is not an evil person outside of the context of the game. By the same token, if someone accuses you of lying and distorting every word he says, you should not assume that that player is accusing you of being evil outside of the context of this game.

I know it can get heated, but don't assume that the person you're arguing with is anti-Jimmmmm just because they don't agree with you.

[Archetype]

...and it looks like I put this on the wrong board. Can you move it, Robz?

[Jimmmmm]

/in

ZM is blitz right?

What's your definition of a personal attack?

The same stuff, but an emphasis on this:

In practice, remember that it is just a game, and though a player may be lying to you and distorting every word you say, that player is not an evil person outside of the context of the game. By the same token, if someone accuses you of lying and distorting every word he says, you should not assume that that player is accusing you of being evil outside of the context of this game.

I know it can get heated, but don't assume that the person you're arguing with is anti-Jimmmmm just because they don't agree with you.

I tend to assume that everyone is anti-Jimmmmm. Works pretty well most of the time.

[ashersky]

/in

...and it looks like I put this on the wrong board. Can you move it, Robz?

You know I'm a mod too, right?  I moved it for you.

[Archetype]

/in

...and it looks like I put this on the wrong board. Can you move it, Robz?

You know I'm a mod too, right?  I moved it for you.

Woah! I need to pay more attention to those star thingies...

[pacovf]

Is the choice of whether you shoot yourself or you bow out public? Might affect whether this is broken or not (although the fact that this is blitz means town can't pull off excessively elaborate plans, so it should be fine).

[ashersky]

Is the choice of whether you shoot yourself or you bow out public? Might affect whether this is broken or not (although the fact that this is blitz means town can't pull off excessively elaborate plans, so it should be fine).

You've clearly never played with me.

My guess is not public.  The Hated test on D2 works, though.

[ashersky]

No bullets N0, correct?

[ashersky]

Arch, I'm worried that no one pulls the trigger, ever.

Like, shoot loaded and die is bad.  Bow out empty and Hated is not as bad.  Plus, the bonus for a loaded bow out is better than an empty shot.

Combine that with no lynch for two days.  If 7 townies bow out, scum is double-hated guaranteed, unless they use 0 bullets.  Then it's a stalemate.

I say ban No Lynch and increase bullets if you want town making tough choices at night.  Or a better bonus for empty shots (like, just flip the empty shot with loaded bow out, since pulling the trigger is the bigger risk).

[faust]

I think the whole "hated" mechanic is problematic in that it potentially turns later days into to a race of "who can quickhammer first"?

[Voltaire]

/tag

[scott_pilgrim]

/in

[Archetype]

Ok.
I like the No-Lynching idea. I'll make it so whichever player has the most votes on them at deadline is lynched, but each Hated counts as a vote too.

I could be wrong, but that stalemate scenario may not quite happen the way you described it.

Say, on D1, Town!ash proposes your plan of having everyone bow out. That night, scum simply loads no bullets and Town all get Hated. If you continue doing that (5 times, I think), all the Town will be Hated equal to the number of votes needed to lynch and they die. So I don't think that exact scenario will occur, but a mandatory lynch should prevent stalemates in general from happening.

But I guess the problem is Bowing out being better than Shooting a majority of the time. I simulated with a 50/50 chance for each player to do either one. So maybe Town shooting an empty gun gives a random scum a Hated...? But that would make scum want to load more bullets, which would make Town want to bow out more...

Maybe when a Townie bows out with a bullet, scum gets it back?

My worst fear is that Town will just flip a coin or something to determine what they'll do.

[mail-mi]

/in

[ashersky]

The key to the theme here is having to shoot a gun that's pointed at your own head, not knowing if it's loaded.

You are giving town the option to not pull the trigger, and there's no incentive to ever shoot, currently.  Even hated x4 is better than dead.  Quick hammer outs scum, after all.

If no lynch goes away, the to lynch number will get smaller, so that makes Hated worse as the game progresses.

[yuma]

/tag. Previous games have shown I can't play blitz games of any kind but I would love to watch.

[chairs]

ah hell, /in.

I agree with Ash that there's a niggling concern of "how do you make bowing out only equally as attractive as taking the shot?" but I'm not quite sure how to fix it (though I think the plurality lynch w/hated as hidden votes is a great start).

[Archetype]

Ok, I liked ashersky's idea, but changed it a bit to make it fairer for the Mafia. Changes to the original setup in the 2nd post.

I did come up with a second way to do this idea. Ashersky's suggestion is a lot more clean cut than mine, but I really like the atmosphere of mine. When a Townie fires an empty gun, they become Loved (take one more vote to be lynched). Basically, instead of punishing Mafia, it helps Town. But why would a Townie shoot themselves N1? They can't get Hated until after then. So pregame, Mafia can make people Hated. The number of people they make hated is dependent upon the number of bullets they choose to start with. Less bullets, more pregame hating (hey, that sounds like Fifa). This creates a couple cute things:

1. Town really wants to vote. All the Hate is on the Townies, so if they don't vote at all a Town member is guaranteed to be lynched.

2. Since Hating and Shooting deaths are indistinguishable, it makes it harder to guess how many bullets/hating Mafia chose.

However, it also creates a few problems:

1. If a Town member shoots themselves twice in a row, they take one more vote to be lynched. And it's easily tested by running them up to L-1. Simple fix is to cap it out so they can only break even, but thats sort of lame. And insinuates them to go back and forth between Shoot and Hide. Which limits the fun for them. You could have the excess Loved translate into a Hated for scum, or have it be gifted to a random Townie in need of some love to combat their hate. But both sound kind of gimmicky and against the "This is your all up to you" mentality of the shooting minigame. Another option is to allow scum to add Hatedness manually over the course of the game or introduce another mechanism to randomly or specifically add Hated-ness. But both of these could get messy fast.

2. Why would Town shoot to help themselves? This is the main problem...if a Townie has a chance of killing themselves, who cares if one of their Hateds is gone? No real way to solve this unless you hurt scum too or help other townies. But the random Townie adds some luck into a skillful blitz game. Hurting scum after breaking even would be the most likely thing, but kinda dilutes coolness factor #1.

I've been racking my brain all day to come up with a way to do my idea, but i can't think of anything. I'm sure I could come up with some complicated side mechanic, but that decreases the simplicity of the original idea, which I want to stay true to - especially since this is blitz.  So if anyone can think of a nice and simple way to create those two coolness factors (which are super cool!), I'll do that. Otherwise, I'll simulate the new setup in the second post when I get home from work tommorow and we'll get a game up and running.

[Archetype]

Also, sorry for any grammar errors. That was a lot to type on mobile.

[ashersky]

I definitely think the "rewards" and "punishments" for shooting and bowing out make sense now, and are probably about right for forcing decisions.

Thinking through game play, I'm wondering if we'll end up with some stagnant days with fears of voting due to not knowing the Hated count.  I do think the whole thing promotes straight scumhunting since you won't want to run up wagons.

On the Loved/Hated idea you are playing with...let's think this through.

Let's say mafia starts N0 with 14 bullets (2xtown).  For each 2 bullets they trade in, they can add 1 Hatedness to a towny.  That let's them make 5 out of 7 Hated on D1 and still have 4 bullets, as the normal setup states.  Is that too much?

What if the N0 Hated are told?  I like that idea.

[pacovf]

Have you considered the possibility of removing/reducing the weight of your vote the day after you bow out?

For example (probably not balanced, just to illustrate the idea):

-if you bow out with a loaded gun, nothing happens and the mafia recovers the bullet;
-if you bow out with an empty gun, you become hated (cumulative) and your votes for the next day are ignored (although they are still counted in vote counts);
-at the beginning of the night, if no one was lynched during the day, the player with the most votes + hatedness (or one chosen randomly among all the players with the highest votes + hatedness) is killed, and the death is indistinguishable from a gunshot.

EDIT: if you like the theme and want to add chaos:
-if you bow out with a loaded gun, nothing happens to you, but you transfer the bullet in your gun to the next player (1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc., 9 to 1).

[luser]

Ok, I liked ashersky's idea, but changed it a bit to make it fairer for the Mafia. Changes to the original setup in the 2nd post.

I did come up with a second way to do this idea. Ashersky's suggestion is a lot more clean cut than mine, but I really like the atmosphere of mine. When a Townie fires an empty gun, they become Loved (take one more vote to be lynched). Basically, instead of punishing Mafia, it helps Town. But why would a Townie shoot themselves N1? They can't get Hated until after then. So pregame, Mafia can make people Hated. The number of people they make hated is dependent upon the number of bullets they choose to start with. Less bullets, more pregame hating (hey, that sounds like Fifa). This creates a couple cute things:

That looks broken to me, on day 1 town decides on no-lynch and that everybody must shoot. Mafia will kill two people but then town will test each member by putting them to L will generate couple of IC until we will hit a scum that will be lynched.

[2.71828.....]

/in

[Hydrad]

/in

[silverspawn]

if i've never played a mafia game before, is this a good place to start? I think I got how it works.

[mail-mi]

if i've never played a mafia game before, is this a good place to start? I think I got how it works.

If I were you, I'd start here

[silverspawn]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

[sudgy]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

The main thing is, this game has way shorter deadlines than normal games, because it's a blitz game.

[2.71828.....]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

The main thing is, this game has way shorter deadlines than normal games, because it's a blitz game.

Shorter deadlines won't be a problem for silverspawn I think.  For some new players maybe, but I think that silverspawn is active enough on the forum that he shouldn't have any trouble and it might actually make for a more enjoyable first game as things need to happen faster. 

[sudgy]

mh, but the roulette setup sounds way more exciting.

The main thing is, this game has way shorter deadlines than normal games, because it's a blitz game.

Shorter deadlines won't be a problem for silverspawn I think.  For some new players maybe, but I think that silverspawn is active enough on the forum that he shouldn't have any trouble and it might actually make for a more enjoyable first game as things need to happen faster.

It's more that it won't be a normal mafia game.  Blitz changes the whole game.

[Archetype]

I've been busy with other projects, so I've been sort of neglecting this. It's been in the back of my mind, but I've been wanting to do other things than solve this problem. I have a couple more ideas.

An addition to ashersky's idea:

- For every bullet that a scum doesn't Load out of the maximum 2, they lose 1 Hated.

And a problem:

Have everyone shoot themselves N1. Scum then loads 2 bullets. 2 people die. Best case scenario for scum, 2 v 4 on D2. However, scum is now Hated x4, so one dies. Now its 1 v 4. If the remaining Mafia member is lynched, game over for scum (most likely scenario). If a Townie is lynched, they can still all shoot themselves. That makes it 1 v 2. But scum is x2 Hated. So he dies leaving Town the winner.

So, the solution? Maybe load up to 3 bullets? If scum is lynched D2, that leaves 2 v 3. But scum is Hated x3, so they die. Now its 1 v 3. Scum basically cannot win at this point. So I think the bonus for Town needs to be changed.

Maybe for the Loved thing? If they have a Hated, they lose it. If they don't, scum get Hated.

Ooh! Ok! I think I've got something...

For every bullet Town doesn't Load, they become Loved the following day.
If Town shoots with an Empty gun, they become Loved for the rest of the game.

Scum have X bullets. Pregame, they may exchange up to Y bullets. For every 2 they exchange, they choose 1 Townie. They gain 1 Hated.

That could get pretty boring though. Especially if scum loads no bullets and becomes Loved x2 every day.

Man. I'm stumped.

[silverspawn]

well, noone said it's a terrible idea, that's good enough for me

/in

it'll be fun 

[mail-mi]

/out

[nkirbit]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

[nkirbit]

I've been busy with other projects, so I've been sort of neglecting this. It's been in the back of my mind, but I've been wanting to do other things than solve this problem. I have a couple more ideas.

An addition to ashersky's idea:

- For every bullet that a scum doesn't Load out of the maximum 2, they lose 1 Hated.

And a problem:

Have everyone shoot themselves N1. Scum then loads 2 bullets. 2 people die. Best case scenario for scum, 2 v 4 on D2. However, scum is now Hated x4, so one dies. Now its 1 v 4. If the remaining Mafia member is lynched, game over for scum (most likely scenario). If a Townie is lynched, they can still all shoot themselves. That makes it 1 v 2. But scum is x2 Hated. So he dies leaving Town the winner.

So, the solution? Maybe load up to 3 bullets? If scum is lynched D2, that leaves 2 v 3. But scum is Hated x3, so they die. Now its 1 v 3. Scum basically cannot win at this point. So I think the bonus for Town needs to be changed.

Maybe for the Loved thing? If they have a Hated, they lose it. If they don't, scum get Hated.

Ooh! Ok! I think I've got something...

For every bullet Town doesn't Load, they become Loved the following day.
If Town shoots with an Empty gun, they become Loved for the rest of the game.

Scum have X bullets. Pregame, they may exchange up to Y bullets. For every 2 they exchange, they choose 1 Townie. They gain 1 Hated.

That could get pretty boring though. Especially if scum loads no bullets and becomes Loved x2 every day.

Man. I'm stumped.

Yeah, if I'm understanding the setup correctly, the game is completely broken.  Town should win 100% of the time, and they can do it no-lynching every day.

[Archetype]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

Yes to all of them.

I'm still trying to think of other rewards for Town. Let's break this down...(WARNING: Saying whatever I'm thinking)

So, there are 2 ways to interact with votes: Votes other people cast and the votes you cast.

We should also keep the theme of the game in mind: It's all on you. Your decisions shouldn't affect fellow Town members.

So, let's look at votes other people cast. Staying true to the theme, we're allowed to change how scum's votes are cast. Simplest method here is to say that a reward makes scum not be able to vote. Or not have their vote mean anything. Except...how do you individualize that? You can't make scum's vote go down lower than 0 (well, can you?...no. That would get confusing). And that reward would effect everyone else by having the votes scum cast against them also mean nothing. So I guess what you could do is say, "If you shoot an Empty gun, Mafia's vote count as nothing against you the following day."

Does this have any broken confirmations? X people on a wagon, at least 1 is scum. If they get ran up to the lynch number and don't die, they know at least 1 scum is on the wagon. Is that OK? I thinking no...So votes would need to be added somehow that make the claimed Townie not be so safe when he wants people to vote for him. Maybe giving scum a vote when they bow out?...No. That would stack up too quickly. Just against them? Eh, no. The people that dodge think they may be shot because they are pro town. Someone who is pro town won't have fear of being lynched anyway. They do have their vote though. Hmm...

Let's focus on the individual player's vote then:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day."
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day."

Or, let's make it a little more crazy:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day when voting against scum"
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day when voting against scum"

That may work...but seems unfun. Everyone claims what they did the night before and then just work it out from there.

Maybe bowing out isn't the best way to do this. Maybe instead of bowing out you can "spin the cylinder". The chamber number for each gun is told at the beginning of each night. Scum can load more cylinders than just the one used that night. If you don't want to shoot the bullet, you can spin the cylinder. You can spin it any number of times. Each time you spin it, you take a penalty (probably 1 Hated). That way everyone has to shoot, but if you think you're in danger you can take 1 Hated in exchange for living.

Wow. I think that a lot. Bolded it as a tl;dr version for anyone who doesn't want to read my thought process. I'll think on the statistics a bit more, then hopefully come back with something good.

[Archetype]

well, noone said it's a terrible idea, that's good enough for me

/in

it'll be fun 

Glad to have you aboard!

Have you read the links in the OP? I highly suggest you do. I also recommend you read this game.

[pacovf]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

Yes to all of them.

That doesn't actually answer the first question

Let's focus on the individual player's vote then:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day."
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day."

Or, let's make it a little more crazy:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day when voting against scum"
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day when voting against scum"

I understand why you discard the second option, but why do you discard the first? It seems obvious to me that any rule that has visible consequences only for one faction gives too much information to town, but that's not the case in the first version.

Maybe instead of bowing out you can "spin the cylinder". The chamber number for each gun is told at the beginning of each night. Scum can load more cylinders than just the one used that night. If you don't want to shoot the bullet, you can spin the cylinder. You can spin it any number of times. Each time you spin it, you take a penalty (probably 1 Hated). That way everyone has to shoot, but if you think you're in danger you can take 1 Hated in exchange for living.

Spin the cylinder any number of times, or just spin the cylinder randomly? Also I would guess now the bullets would stay in the cylinder, which means that you are going to die, eventually.

[ashersky]

Hated/Loved can't be checked without running people up to L-1 (or whatever).  That's how you keep it from being too broken.

Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly.

[Archetype]

3 questions:

Does only a single goon have the choice of loading guns, or can both choose 0, 1, or 2?

Can a goon gather multiple stacks of hated on a single night?

Does a goon choosing 0 bullets count as "loading guns", such that they can get stacks of hated loading 0 bullets if town chooses to shoot?

Yes to all of them.

That doesn't actually answer the first question

Yes.

Let's focus on the individual player's vote then:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day."
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day."

Or, let's make it a little more crazy:

"If you shoot an Empty gun, your vote counts as 2 the following day when voting against scum"
"If you bow out with an Empty gun, your vote counts as 0 the following day when voting against scum"

I understand why you discard the second option, but why do you discard the first? It seems obvious to me that any rule that has visible consequences only for one faction gives too much information to town, but that's not the case in the first version.

If each player claims what they did the night before, they can pinpoint who the doublevoters are. Scum can lie here, so you vote amongst the claimants. Have 2 people amongst this group vote for someone else in the group. Add votes from outside the group as needed. This confirms some people as Town as well as lynches a scum. Its more complicated than that, but the main thing is that everyone claims what they did the night before so that the double vote thing isn't a surprise. It's possible, but the penalty for Town would have to be "scum becomes Loved", but that could get weird.

Maybe instead of bowing out you can "spin the cylinder". The chamber number for each gun is told at the beginning of each night. Scum can load more cylinders than just the one used that night. If you don't want to shoot the bullet, you can spin the cylinder. You can spin it any number of times. Each time you spin it, you take a penalty (probably 1 Hated). That way everyone has to shoot, but if you think you're in danger you can take 1 Hated in exchange for living.

Spin the cylinder any number of times, or just spin the cylinder randomly? Also I would guess now the bullets would stay in the cylinder, which means that you are going to die, eventually.

This was a bit rushed. Each time you spin the cylinder, you move one chamber over. You get Hated by one for every time you spin (for the following day only). I was originally thinking that the cyclinder would be a set amount of chambers and so if Town kept spinning they'd eventually die. But since Town can spin different amounts of times, they can stopat different times. This makes it more difficult for scum to send out bullets and me as a mod to keep track of things. Especially since this is a blitz game. So, instead, I was thinking this:

Scum has 12 bullets total. They can load 0-4 (3?) bullets into Town's guns. They can load multiple bullets into the same player's gun. Bullets given out to the same player are lined up by capsule one by one in the cyclinder. Each night, a player can spin their cyclinder. This moves the cyclinder over one capsule. Doing this makes them Hated the following day. They can do this as many times as they want, but each time they do they get one more Hated. At the end of each night, player's fire their gun. If the current capsule has a bullet, they die. If it doesn't, they live. The gun's are emptied at the beginning of each night. So, bullets present from previous nights aren't used the following nights.

So, players have to guess how many bullets they think scum would put into their gun. To be totally certain, they can spin the cyclinder 5 times...but then they die the following day guaranteed (same thing with having a maximum of 3 bullets loaded).

If scum are too strong, no hates could be given to players who correctly spin past a capsule holding a bullet. Another possibility would be to have Hated roll over from night to night. This would make Town be more hesitant to share their night actions...which is a good thing, I think.

[Archetype]

Hated/Loved can't be checked without running people up to L-1 (or whatever).  That's how you keep it from being too broken.

Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly.

My main thing with the Loved thing is someone can say "Hey, I'm loved!" players can run them up to L-1 and then they're conf!Town. It wastes time...but not too much if this fact is shared D1 and accepted that it would be the protocol should someone say that. Hateds could be added over the course of the game, or pregame, but that just delays the inevitable. There could be no Loved, just "remove a Hate" but that would have to make players not know wether or not they are Hated. And even if they aren't, why take the risk and shoot yourself? The safer move would be to bow out.

I do agree with your second point.

[pacovf]

I do agree with your second point.

I don't agree with the second point:

"Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly."

This is only true if "extra votes or no votes" can only be gotten by certain alignments. If mafia can also gain/lose votes by doing something, then knowing how many votes someone gets doesn't give you any information. Also, it stands to reason that the number of votes someone has against him should be hidden, and only revealed when he/she reaches L, which makes the "systematic check" much less systematic.

Mind, I'm just arguing for the sake of completeness, not because I think this is the best solution.

[silverspawn]

Have you read the links in the OP?

ya

[ashersky]

I do agree with your second point.

I don't agree with the second point:

"Extra votes or no votes based on conditions of alignment or night decisions is systematically checked every day and the game breaks quickly."

This is only true if "extra votes or no votes" can only be gotten by certain alignments. If mafia can also gain/lose votes by doing something, then knowing how many votes someone gets doesn't give you any information. Also, it stands to reason that the number of votes someone has against him should be hidden, and only revealed when he/she reaches L, which makes the "systematic check" much less systematic.

Mind, I'm just arguing for the sake of completeness, not because I think this is the best solution.

If the mechanic is "if you target scum, you are hated" then everyone claims who they targeted and gets run up to L-1.  When someone dies, you've caught scum.  That's what I meant.

[mail-mi]

/out

[jotheonah]

/in if we ever figure out the rules

[Archetype]

I think I've got something. OP will be updated with the new idea tomorrow.

[Archetype]

OK, Russian Roulette Mafia 3.0 has been updated in OP #2. The exact bullet numbers/amount they're allowed to load hasn't been finilized. I'm more interested in what you guys think of the continuous hating mechanic that's introduced.

[Hydrad]

At first glance I kinda like it. I don't immediately see a way town can abuse it now to win everytime.

[chairs]

I have a niggling feeling that it's still abusable somehow, but it's at least less obvious.

[silverspawn]

it probably doesn't matter if it's abusable, even if you figure out how, it doesn't work if the rest of the town doesn't play along

[jotheonah]

When you say "Deaths due to Hated-ness and gunshot are indiscernible" ... I assume they're generally discernable based on if they happen during the day or during the night.

But if day breaks and there are seven people in the town (takes 4 to lynch) and I'm Hated 4, I'll turn up dead just the same as if I'd shot myself?

[Archetype]

When you say "Deaths due to Hated-ness and gunshot are indiscernible" ... I assume they're generally discernable based on if they happen during the day or during the night.

But if day breaks and there are seven people in the town (takes 4 to lynch) and I'm Hated 4, I'll turn up dead just the same as if I'd shot myself?

Yes. At the beginning of each day, whoever would die by having too much hated will die. But it can cause a chain reaction. So someone's Hated death could bring the L number down and cause someone else to die.

Which is my greatest fear with the Hated thing...that it'll detract too much from the actual gun firing. Writing this gave me an inkling of an idea for something that totally removes the Hated. It seems pretty slick, but that usually means it's breakable. I'll have to think on it a bit more.

[jotheonah]

ooh I hadn't thought of that. (the chain reaction)

[silverspawn]

piu piu piu?

[Archetype]

I want to run whichever one people like the most (rotating barrel or gun bowing out) so I've left it up to the players to decide (via a poll). Please only participate if you are an informed voter. I don't care if you give your opinion and you aren't playing, but make sure you know the gist of both mechanics.

[Archetype]

Voting has closed....and only one person has voted (jotheonah).

I've been thinking about it more, and I think I have two big problems with the bowing version:
1) Whether or not the Hatedness will become more important than the cool minigame

2) If people would shoot themselves to reduce their chances of being lynched the next day when they could die anyway by shooting a bullet

So...I think I may do the rotating barrel version. A big problem with that as well:

1) People will claim how many times they spun their gun at the beginning of each day.

2) "Spinning the barrel" is sort of arbitrary. They can be dead that night guaranteed (already have too much Hated accumulated that restricts how far they can spin the barrel and there could already by a bullet there) which sort of ruins the fun.

I think I have something - again - that may work. Let me think on it a bit more.

[2.71828.....]

Is this going to get going sometime?  Because I will be super V/LA starting August 17 until an unknown time in the future, which is already pushing the limit on having to /out this game.

[Archetype]

Is this going to get going sometime?  Because I will be super V/LA starting August 17 until an unknown time in the future, which is already pushing the limit on having to /out this game.

Yeah this'll probably be on hold for a little while. I originally opened it because there weren't many games in Signup mode, but now there's plenty and I still have some kinks. Plus I'll be V/LA at some point every week for a couple of weeks, so I won't be able to be online consistently enough to mod.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Where do we stand on this game?  Is it doable?  I'm thinking of joining.

[Archetype]

Where do we stand on this game?  Is it doable?  I'm thinking of joining.

Probably not. I don't have a lot of time to mod a blitz right now and I haven't worked on the mechanics much, though some of it was borrowed for LOST Mafia.