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Author Topic: Dominion - Reverence  (Read 25318 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2014, 09:09:58 am »
0

Have you considered something like:
I didn't, because I expect the current version to be really strong. so, unless it turns out to be weak, there's no reason to make it even stronger.

Hum, problem is, just +2$ is a weak bonus, considering the attack is weaker than witch. The other problem is that this card is already very wordy.
+2$ > +2 cards on junkers I think, both in fun and in power level. I'm sure that's debatable though, but yeah, I think Witch would be a stronger card with +2$. Inquisition could be an exception from this rule, because it doesn't give out as many curses, but still, I'm happy with the vanilla bonus.

two examples that go about it differently:
ehh... I don't really see it. I mean, it's a terminal apprentice, not really what I was going for with the concept. There may be something there for a different card, if the effect works out. I kind of suspect it to be broken.

I know this is not a very helpful comment, but what should i do... Just wanted to point out that i find the art Showdown35 did beautiful.
Hopefully i'll have some time later to comment on the cards themselves :)
to avoid misunderstandings, he of course didn't draw the pictures, he just searched for them and made them into dominion cards. Not to take anything away from what he's doing though, because he's amazing at it.

pacovf

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2014, 09:21:35 am »
+1

Have you considered something like:
I didn't, because I expect the current version to be really strong. so, unless it turns out to be weak, there's no reason to make it even stronger.

You noticed that it can't discard only one card, right? That's the one option that according to Donald is too strong at 4$, and that is going to be the baseline power for your version. Removing that option makes the card weaker but easier to balance, hence the choice coming back to the player.

Of course, I am just theorycrafting, playtesting beats that ten times out of ten.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2014, 09:28:46 am »
+1

Have you considered something like:
I didn't, because I expect the current version to be really strong. so, unless it turns out to be weak, there's no reason to make it even stronger.

You noticed that it can't discard only one card, right? That's the one option that according to Donald is too strong at 4$, and that is going to be the baseline power for your version. Removing that option makes the card weaker but easier to balance, hence the choice coming back to the player.

Of course, I am just theorycrafting, playtesting beats that ten times out of ten.

I didn't notice. So, now I get what you're going for. That's not a bad idea. Of course I still want to test the current version first, because it's simpler, but if it doesn't work out, dodging the sift-only version could be the answer.

Showdown35

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2014, 10:50:21 pm »
+3

I know this is not a very helpful comment, but what should i do... Just wanted to point out that i find the art Showdown35 did beautiful.
Hopefully i'll have some time later to comment on the cards themselves :)
to avoid misunderstandings, he of course didn't draw the pictures, he just searched for them and made them into dominion cards. Not to take anything away from what he's doing though, because he's amazing at it.

I would love to have the artistic ability to create all that artwork! (I do sketch a little, but not even close to the art I use on the cards!)
Yes, all the art I use for the cards is someone else's (mostly digital artwork), hence the "Illustration" credit at the bottom of each card. I receive nor expect any kind of monetary gain from mocking up the cards, and I own NO copyrights to any of the material.

...and thanks for the compliment! I do love Photoshop!!
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Asper

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2014, 06:39:18 am »
+1

I like believer, Grail, Priestess and Sacred Village, though i think the wording of the latter can be improved. Royal Sanctum seems decently priced to me. I think it's a new player trap, though.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2014, 06:59:27 am »
+2

For Sacred Village, do you really need to "set" the action counter? I don't see what would be so strong about it if it could only increase your count. Inn has a strong gain effect and always gives actions, after all.

Sacred Village
+2 cards
Do this twice:
If you have less than two actions left, discard a card and +1action
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2014, 07:26:22 am »
0

For Sacred Village, do you really need to "set" the action counter? I don't see what would be so strong about it if it could only increase your count. Inn has a strong gain effect and always gives actions, after all.

Sacred Village
+2 cards
Do this twice:
If you have less than two actions left, discard a card and +1action

It's not important that it can make you lose Actions. The reason I prefer the original wording is that I think it's more elegant. That's a matter of taste though, so if most people prefer this wording, I'd still be willing to change it. Any opinions?

Asper

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2014, 07:44:46 am »
0

For Sacred Village, do you really need to "set" the action counter? I don't see what would be so strong about it if it could only increase your count. Inn has a strong gain effect and always gives actions, after all.

Sacred Village
+2 cards
Do this twice:
If you have less than two actions left, discard a card and +1action

It's not important that it can make you lose Actions. The reason I prefer the original wording is that I think it's more elegant. That's a matter of taste though, so if most people prefer this wording, I'd still be willing to change it. Any opinions?

Actually i think the reason why i'm averse to "setting" the action counter is more that it introduces a new concept - i never heard of actions being "gained", either. Just my two cents.

Edit: About power level, i expect both versions to be pretty decently placed at 4$. Mine is Moat in the worse case*, yours even worse. In the cases where you actually want to play it, though, it's either Inn without on-gain or a Lab/Warehouse-hybrid.

*And Mint, too.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:49:00 am by Asper »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2014, 07:59:21 am »
0

It is a new concept, but I think only because it doesn't work for draw-to-x. You can't say "set your number of cards to 7", so library says "draw until" instead. the until version is weird for this card, so you chose a middle way, which is like saying "do this 7 times: if you have less than 7 cards in hand, draw a card" on library (except it's not as awkward on this card, because it's only 2 times). Still, for Actions the "set" wording seems really simple. I don't really see how you can misunderstand it.

Asper

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2014, 09:42:02 am »
0

It is a new concept, but I think only because it doesn't work for draw-to-x. You can't say "set your number of cards to 7", so library says "draw until" instead. the until version is weird for this card, so you chose a middle way, which is like saying "do this 7 times: if you have less than 7 cards in hand, draw a card" on library (except it's not as awkward on this card, because it's only 2 times). Still, for Actions the "set" wording seems really simple. I don't really see how you can misunderstand it.

Library doesn't make you discard if you have too many cards in your hand. Maybe it's just that i don't want to have negative actions (which is kind of what this does sometimes). Playing a Moat for 4$ is allready awful enough as is.

I agree it's not hard to understand, though.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2014, 06:34:33 pm »
+1

So, I went for the simpler versions of Inquisition and Shrine:


I think soulnet suggested the mandatory trash thing in his first post, but I didn't like it at the time. Now I really prefer it over the more complicated version.

Jack Rudd

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2014, 09:42:36 pm »
+1

"I set the Inquisition on you... oh, rats."
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liopoil

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2014, 09:45:05 pm »
+1

inquisition sounds way worse than mountebank to me.
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popsofctown

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2014, 09:45:05 pm »
+1

Why is silverspawn such a good card designer
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2014, 09:48:24 pm »
0

Why is silverspawn such a good card designer

Because he knows that Lookout is the best $3 trasher. :P
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popsofctown

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2014, 10:27:17 pm »
0

Better than Steward? I'm either on the wrong side of an inside joke or on the wrong side of Dominion knowledge.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2014, 10:29:53 pm »
0

Better than Steward? I'm either on the wrong side of an inside joke or on the wrong side of Dominion knowledge.

The former.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6406.msg283163#msg283163
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2014, 03:22:15 am »
0

inquisition sounds way worse than mountebank to me.

it is, and so are 204 of the official cards.

Asper

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2014, 09:22:31 am »
0

They can't all be the better-than-Mountbank-iest attack ever.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2014, 09:45:52 am »
0

yeah, I honestly think mountebank is stronger than it (or any junker) has any right to be. I don't think an early Inquisition is less likely to be bought because of mountebank than, say, minion. I don't know if I ever bought my first minion over mountebank. Inquisition is better than mount in games where copper is not a bad card, like vs gardens or apothecaries. these are all edge cases, but all junkers are weaker than mount save for edge cases. the card is just so ludicrously powerful.

it's a little bit unfortunate that Inquisition becomes almost strictly worse-ish than mount once curses are gone, as supposed to witch which has another vanilla bonus, but I can live with that.

Asper

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2014, 11:04:17 am »
+1

yeah, I honestly think mountebank is stronger than it (or any junker) has any right to be. I don't think an early Inquisition is less likely to be bought because of mountebank than, say, minion. I don't know if I ever bought my first minion over mountebank. Inquisition is better than mount in games where copper is not a bad card, like vs gardens or apothecaries. these are all edge cases, but all junkers are weaker than mount save for edge cases. the card is just so ludicrously powerful.

it's a little bit unfortunate that Inquisition becomes almost strictly worse-ish than mount once curses are gone, as supposed to witch which has another vanilla bonus, but I can live with that.

If you don't like it becoming weaker when Curses are gone, why don't you do what pacovf suggested and make the gaining conditional via "If another player does not, he gains a Curse".

Your current wording makes the Curses run out much faster and is arguably more complex, too.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2014, 11:49:58 am »
0

If you don't like it becoming weaker when Curses are gone, why don't you do what pacovf suggested and make the gaining conditional via "If another player does not, he gains a Curse".

Your current wording makes the Curses run out much faster and is arguably more complex, too.

I've already answered this I think. If the gain is conditional, games in 3P+ without trashing can go on forever, and that's not really fun. the fact that it's worse than mount once they are out is a non-issue compared to that.

Awaclus

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2014, 12:33:14 pm »
0

all junkers are weaker than mount save for edge cases.

Dear diary, today I learned that Cultist isn't a junker.
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soulnet

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2014, 10:28:47 pm »
+1

Dear diary, today I learned that Cultist isn't a junker.

My Mountebanks can beat your Cultists any day of the weak and twice on Sunday.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion - Reverence
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2014, 09:00:34 am »
+1

Dear diary, today I learned that Cultist isn't a junker.

My Mountebanks can beat your Cultists any day of the weak and twice on Sunday.

But any day of the strong, my Cultists beat your Mountebanks!

If both Cultist and Mountebank are present, you pretty much have to go for both. If you go for Mountebank first and your opponent goes for Cultist first, you lose. If only one of them is present, you pretty much have to go for it, but you go for Mountebank and buy maybe 1-3 copies of it because it's a small opportunity cost for slowing your opponent down significantly, while you go for Cultist and spend your early game trying to buy as many Cultists as you can because if you don't, your deck will become completely unusable for the rest of the game in three shuffles. Fast strategies that can deal with some junk are rare, but they can easily beat Mountebank without going for it, while they need to be super fast to beat Cultist without going for it.
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