I can't tell if "if you don't" means "if you don't have exactly 5 cards", or "if you don't trash".
the old version had "if you didn't draw a second card" in a new line, it was more clear there. showdown chose to put it in the same line with the new version, I don't really know why and I didn't ask yet. But it's probably best to make it as it was, like so:
"+1 Card
+1 Action
if you have exactly 5 cards in your hand, you may trash...
if you didn't trash ... +1 Action"
This seems a little too complicated, and I don't see people using "everyone gains a Copper" very much; but the main thing I want to point out is, it's too strong for $3. "+$2, gain a Silver" alone is almost Explorer, given that you don't match Explorer with Gold every time you buy it; "+$2, gain a Silver or a bunch of other options" probably needs to be $5 as well.
i thought so too, but it really isn't that strong. you buy it just for silver sometimes, but it's not broken. you can compare it to JoaT, both will gain you a silver, JOAT will draw a card which is worth about as much as +2$, and then JoaT also does two other things. it's decent for BM, but not that amazing.
it is complicated though, it's the most complex card so far. that might kill it. but it's also really flexible.
The trashing here just seems so weak as to be hardly worth it.
it is absolutely worth it.
Is this a Throne Room variant? If it's terminal, it looks more like a Scheme variant. Also, its interaction with Duration cards in particular would be super confusing and hard to track IRL.
a normal throne room has a phantom "+1 action." this has a phantom "-1 action" but does the same otherwise, so yea i think it's a throne room variant. but it can obviously do a whole bunch of things that tr can't.
it's a little bit hard to track with durations, but it's not as hard as procession is, and procession didn't die because of it either. i should also mention that i love this card, it's my favorite of the ones I've made, I really think the tracking issues are worth it.
This seems too powerful. cantrip trashing seems already good for $4, and this more or less turns into a village for later. I think it needs to cost $5.
that was my first instinct too, but it seems fine so far. you can't trash with it as much as i expected, because you want to use it as a village pretty quickly, and you can't trash twice in a row. if it's too strong, I'll make it draw only if you don't trash. but as i said, it looked fine so far.
The condition is a bit complicated. Is that necessary? Maybe just Action and Treasure are enough, since you want to discard Victory cards anyway. Moreover, I would try to change it to just one card. Like "If you discard a card costing $4 or more" or similar. If you do it with just one, you can separate it. "You may discard ..... If you do, +1 Card and gain ....." and then just Cellar. Maybe separating the part of the effect that produces the gain for conditions on more than one card would be nice as well, though it would combo less with dual-types (not a big deal, being outside Intrigue).
i don't think it's complicated. it's basically "discard one of every card type to trigger it". it worked really well so far, i don't really see why i should change it. the victory card is not trivial, you don't always have green cards in your deck.
you're probably right about the reveal issue: i'm used to goko where you know every card discarded, but i recall reading that you only have to show the top card irl.
Really an Engine card, but possibly not strong enough. I would start with up to $4 more and maybe even cost it $3 (though costing $3 makes it weaker for Province gaining, but that can be fine, especially with the power-up) then lower it if its too much, because if its OP, it will be obvious faster when playtesting (and it will make players buy it more without requiring them to).
my feeling says it's strong. i might be wrong, but I don't really think i want to test an even stronger version yet.
Seems weak for a Curser, but weak Cursers can be fine. +$2 and curse the opponents is a bit weak (weaker than Witch in general). This comes with a bane. The Prayer gaining does not seem strong enough to justify it. As a Curser, I think its weaker than Witch/MB/Cultitst, but possibly better than Soothsayer (quite different to compare, though). The Attack seems deffinitely nastier than Soothsayer's (considering both bane here and Soothsayer's card-drawing compensation). The bonus here is a bit weaker in general, and a lot weaker for BM, but can even be stronger for many Engines.
these are about my thoughts as well. that's a good thing though, I'd like it being weaker than witch. the dominance of junkers is one of the few aspects i dislike in dominion
I would go with "you may" and "if you don't" instead of choose one.
why?
Also, the trashing condition seems complicated. I would just trash Shrine first and then trash a card per Action in play (maybe exactly instead of up to, if you need some nerf). Being terminal, making the trash non-optional gives interesting decision on whether to leave your non-terminals unplayed, if you have cards you would like to keep.
the first version i tested trashed itself first then counted one for every 2 cards. that seemed like it could use a small buff, but only a small one. trashing one per action card will make it too good. i want you to work for trashing.
changing "up to" to "exactly" is a way to nerf it, but not i way i like very much. also, like holy grounds, I don't really see the need to change it, because it's fun to play with as it is, and I haven't really encountered any big problems yet. you aren't going to use the trashing very often, counting once or twice a game seems fine.
Are the "Whenever"s supposed to be active all the time or only when there is a Temple in play? If the former, put a while this is in play. If the latter, you need some indication like "in games using this".
I don't think that's true. The way I understand it is, if something is written below a horizontal line, it means that it always applies. regardless of that, if it's not clear to you, it may be a good idea to add "in games using this", even if it isn't necessary. there is enough space left.
do you draw a card after an empty hand even if no Temple's were bought?
yes, you do. that's intentional, but not very significant.
The problem is that the Action effect seems uninteresting. The pseudo-trashing is pretty darn good, may even be too good (considring chapel has an "up to 4", maybe you need to cap this as well). This seems like it could be non-terminal, so you can at least use it for mild sifting. Also, do you need to discard things on-buy? Maybe discarding on Temple-play is better, otherwise, seems like something easier to forget. I also don't see the connection, is it always bad to discard things from the Temple mat?
well, the "trashed" cards come back, that's the problem, and it's supposed to be a problem, so yea, the discard isn't optional.
i agree with most of the other problems. as i already said in my opening post, there's a fairly big chance that I'll just have to drop it. basically, if a card isn't fun to play, and doesn't have an obvious fix, i'm not trying to make it work, and rather try a different concept.
(I don't get the Penalty, why is it there?).
it's an idea i've been playing around with for a while now. originally, it was on its own card and an option for yourself, but I ended up using it as a reaction here. it works on this card because, if both players go crusades, and yours won't activate, you can at least salvage your turn, which makes it less swingy. also, prayer costs 0$, so it helps for the next turn
s trashing from a non-victory pile really worth all that text? Its probably pretty good for rushes, but it does not feel like you will stop an engine just by trashing their piles (at least in 2p). Maybe it is good for rushing Duchies even without alt-VP? I guess the bottom-line is that I don't see great appeal in the card. If it were not wordy, that is not a problem, but I personally need a good reason for a wordy card.
it depends on lots of things. sometimes, trashing the villages is enough to make BM superior to the engine, sometimes it's important to trash curses, or sometimes it can help you to 3pile.
i agree that a wordy card has to be interesting. I find it it interesting, because it's so versatile. but if it doesn't appeal to others, that's a big problem. it's another card that i might just end up removing from the set.
Overall comment: I think you are making things too easy on the players. Maybe that's the intent, to have cards that play better casually. But it seems to me you are avoiding lots of downsides with options, optional effects, and such. I think its good to have non-obvious downsides (like forced gaining or trashing).
i don't know, i find them to be annoying and uninteresting. generally, I would always prefer it if a card has the option to do nothing at all over a forced action that can sometimes be harmful.
I should probably mention that I'm not trying to make an expansion that's
just like an official expansion. I would like trashing to be less of an all-or-nothing thing, junking be less dominant, and the games be more complex. that's why i love believer, it's super fun to play but it can get really complicated, just like procession.
thanks both of you for the thoughts!
