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Author Topic: League evaluation  (Read 23258 times)

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hsiale

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2014, 05:14:19 pm »
0

At least for D hired goons need to wait a week more as the season is longer here due to more players per group.

My group (D7) has a player with 2 out of 6 matches played (I played him, it took us two sessions with 3 weeks separating them, but this was my fault, not his). Other than that, there is one unplayed match and it is scheduled for tomorrow. I don't know if the player with 4 matches remaining is going to play them, but it is definitely possible (I played most of my games during week one, including a day with 3 matches, I have to admit now it was a bit crazy and probably hurt my performance, but it's possible to get lots of games in a short period of time).
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2014, 06:21:17 pm »
+1

The season is supposed to have ended yesterday, right? But it looks like only four of the fifteen divisions are at 100% completion. Do we now send hired goons to menace those who aren't finished?

I would very much like for all A, B & C groups to reach 100%.
In order to do so, I will still accept all matches that get scheduled before/on Wednesday and played before/on Sunday.

We're still looking for 7 matches to be played:
B1: Destierro vs JDaki & Destierro vs Tao Chen.
C1: Chan Kuan Rong vs Slyfox & Chan Kuan Rong vs A Drowned Kernel
C2: Temron vs jsh357
C3: Qvist vs Lekkit & Fergesser vs qmech


For D3, D4, D5, D7, D8  - they have another week to go. Please try to get your matches played.
D2, D6 finished already.

D1 - the winner is clear so further inactivity won't hurt the league. However, especially if you want to come back for season 2 - please show me your desire to get matches actually played.


As far as handling inactive players goes I think people who didn't play at least 2 matches can be removed only if they fail to explain themselves.
...
Off course I will never remove anyone without trying to contact them and asking why / what happened.
So far the only player I removed didn't respond to my messages at all.
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Breezy D

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2014, 07:36:11 am »
+1

I've enjoyed the league but my biggest challenge has been scheduling.

Grouping by timezone has not been good for me. The best time for me is usually around 4-6 am in my time zone. In fact, I can play at those times almost every day. Yet most of my opponents have an easier time scheduling in the evening which only occasionally works for me especially when they are one or two time zones west of me.

To the extent that it is possible, I would be interested in seeing groupings for season 2 according to when folks are usually able to play rather than where they live.
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2014, 08:24:41 am »
+2

I've enjoyed the league but my biggest challenge has been scheduling.

Grouping by timezone has not been good for me. The best time for me is usually around 4-6 am in my time zone. In fact, I can play at those times almost every day. Yet most of my opponents have an easier time scheduling in the evening which only occasionally works for me especially when they are one or two time zones west of me.

To the extent that it is possible, I would be interested in seeing groupings for season 2 according to when folks are usually able to play rather than where they live.

I will continue to group by timezone, but you're free to pretend you're in a different timezone then you actually are if your favorite playing times are unusual.
Please just PM me with the timezone you want to be in.
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mtmagus

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2014, 06:37:34 pm »
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Hey Stef.  Can we get a little more information on how promotion/demotion/inserting and removing people is going to work?  I read your post in the rules and regulations, and there were a lot of "may's" and conditionals in it.  It might be better to have some sort of ironclad algorithm set out before you release season 2 divisions.  The more vague the rules are the more people will complain.
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silverspawn

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2014, 01:21:51 am »
0

Hey Stef.  Can we get a little more information on how promotion/demotion/inserting and removing people is going to work?  I read your post in the rules and regulations, and there were a lot of "may's" and conditionals in it.  It might be better to have some sort of ironclad algorithm set out before you release season 2 divisions.  The more vague the rules are the more people will complain.

promotion and demotion is pretty straight forward. bottom 2 of divisions in A-C drop down, top 1 of B-D get promoted. E isn't decided yet and you can't promote from A, obviously. And inserting and removing seems pretty clearly left to his judgement in every individual case on purpose.

impromptublue

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2014, 01:50:40 am »
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Will there be an effort to get players in divisions with opponents they haven't played before, or will we end up with mostly the same opponents (due to timezone)?

Thanks for organizing this btw. It's the first dominion league tournament I've participated in and I really enjoy the division structure.
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2014, 04:29:38 am »
+2

promotion and demotion is pretty straight forward. bottom 2 of divisions in A-C drop down, top 1 of B-D get promoted. E isn't decided yet and you can't promote from A, obviously. And inserting and removing seems pretty clearly left to his judgement in every individual case on purpose.

Correct, but I guess I can say a bit more about it.

I will try to get the groups filled starting with A, then B, then C, then D.
Division A - the old top-4 and the two winners from B all want to stay.
Division B - some free spots due to leaving/sitting out of Perry Green, probably AI, jog, ?
  I will fill them up with the highest ranked players based on Isotropish leaderboard of July 4th.
  One of those spots will almost certainly be given to Obi Wan Bonogi (currently #10)
  The rest gets divided between the people that ended #2 in C divisions. Currently they're all very close to each other on the leaderboard.
Division C - similar process as described above. People leaving and the free promotions to B will both free up spots in C.
  I will make a group of all candidates (people in D ending #2, new players, people in C ending #5), see who is ranked highest, and give them a free promotion.

This means you're better off being new then ending up #6 in C.
It also means you're better off being new then ending up #3 in D.
(in terms of having a chance on a free promotion to C).
so be it.
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hvb

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2014, 03:32:19 pm »
+3


  The rest gets divided between the people that ended #2 in C divisions. Currently they're all very close to each other on the leaderboard.


If it becomes relevant, that a free slot will be given to a #2 of the C devisions, i'd rather see the player with the most total points promoting (or in this case the player with the best average score, because C1 has only 5 players remaining) instead of the best on the Leaderboard.

I think its more fair/consistant letting a player promote based on a criterion, that belongs to the given performances in the League.
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Voltaire

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2014, 03:43:48 pm »
+1

I think its more fair/consistant letting a player promote based on a criterion, that belongs to the given performances in the League.

I do agree with this, that if possible league performance should be used instead of the leaderboard (though I support using the leaderboard in situations with no/incomplete league data). The fun of the league comes from the fact that it isn't a perfect reflection of the leaderboard.

That said I don't care about this intensely and support whatever action Stef takes.
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2014, 09:23:21 am »
+2

Next season hvb, TheMirrorMan and A Drowned Kernel will be joining the league organization.

For season 1 I enjoyed handling everything myself, but it's probably too much work to continue enjoying that all the time.
Also I want the league to not depend on one person.
I will still be handling the new seeding for season 2 myself but after that it's us 4.

--

next season I'll use different codes for players, probably something with letters in stead of numbers.
These codes are way too confusing for people with ranks, I'd estimate about 20% of the results posts mix them up.

--

If it becomes relevant, that a free slot will be given to a #2 of the C devisions, i'd rather see the player with the most total points promoting (or in this case the player with the best average score, because C1 has only 5 players remaining) instead of the best on the Leaderboard.

I think its more fair/consistant letting a player promote based on a criterion, that belongs to the given performances in the League.

I strongly dislike comparing how many points you get in group X to how many points someone else gets in group Y. Especially on D level the groups turned out not to be equally balanced and the final score of the #2's says a lot more about the group then about that #2.

I use league data wherever I (think I) can, and use the leaderboard for the rest. For instance, I will only consider #2 for a free promotion, even if #3 is higher on the leaderboard.
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SCSN

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2014, 11:06:01 am »
+1

next season I'll use different codes for players, probably something with letters in stead of numbers.
These codes are way too confusing for people with ranks, I'd estimate about 20% of the results posts mix them up.

Is anyone served by players having a code at all? Isn't

Quote
D8: hugovj 0.5 - QwertZuiop 5.5

clearer even to the organizers than

D8-2   hugovj - D8-6 QwertZuiop 0.5 - 5.5QwertZuiop wins

?
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2014, 12:06:58 pm »
+3

Is anyone served by players having a code at all?
yes, I am.

I enter the results into a file results.txt and then run my standings-generator to generate the first post in the standings thread.
It looks like this:

D4-5 D4-3 4
D3-3 D3-6 1
D3-3 D3-1 3
C2-3 C2-4 4
D7-2 D7-3 4
C4-5 C4-6 3
C2-6 C2-5 4.5
C2-1 C2-2 3
D5-5 D5-7 1.5
...


I could also match by name but then I'd be correcting spelling errors all the time.
But I can probably achieve best-of-both-worlds by making the codes look like this...

code   nametimezone
B2moMonsieur X2
B2yeyed2
B2mrMr Anderson2
B2maMarkowKette2
B2sisilverspawn2
B2jeJean-Michel3

... and I wouldn't have to bother anyone else with the existence of codes.
That is, assuming people will remember to put their group ID in the results post and spell the first two characters of all names correctly.
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soulnet

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2014, 02:11:26 pm »
0

I use league data wherever I (think I) can, and use the leaderboard for the rest. For instance, I will only consider #2 for a free promotion, even if #3 is higher on the leaderboard.

That seems inconsistent (why is using position in group ok but using point totals is not? I think both measures have the same problem of being possibly unfair due to groups unevenness. I, as discussed earler, would like for external data to be used as little as possible.

More importantly, is the leaderboard working properly these days? I haven't played in a week, but I think between goko not generating logs and some bugs in the leaderboards, recent rankings have issues and it would be especially important to not use it. I would go as far as to suggest using goko's ranking instead (ignoring their ridiculous variance through AI's work). Of course, my preferred choice would be to completely ignore rankings other than those produced by league results, and placing known-to-be-high players in a sensible division.

Also, I suggest using a google form or some other online form to gather results. It will make the gathering of results a lot easier. You can make the partial results public for accountability and use dropdown boxes for choosing players, to avoid misspellings as well as codes.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2014, 04:34:32 pm »
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More importantly, is the leaderboard working properly these days? I haven't played in a week, but I think between goko not generating logs and some bugs in the leaderboards, recent rankings have issues and it would be especially important to not use it. I would go as far as to suggest using goko's ranking instead (ignoring their ridiculous variance through AI's work).

Unless the missing log bug was systematically related to player ranking in some way (extremely unlikely), there's no reason to reject the isotropish leaderboard based on this. This is just my intuition, but I think percentage of logs missing would have to be very high before we'd expect a large number of rankings to be inaccurate. The higher the percentage missed, the higher the likelihood that the recorded games are out of whack with a player's typical results. The leaderboard is still pulling from a very large number of games for most players.

The bugs in the isotropish leaderboard seem to show up in visually obvious ways at least, really high numbers of games and high skill/deviation.

The problem with using Goko's is that it's a pain to scrape for everybody at once at a single time. You would need to have everybody report their own rating at a certain time (approximately), and there would be no easy way to verify because who the heck wants to click through those pages to see each rating.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 04:36:18 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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soulnet

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2014, 02:31:05 am »
+1

The bugs in the isotropish leaderboard seem to show up in visually obvious ways at least, really high numbers of games and high skill/deviation.

There were several other bugs, apparently related to the migration to linode (e.g., I had disappeared for about a week from the leaderboard for no apparent reason, and afterwards my ranking was completely miscalculated for a while, and AI said it would be like this until he regenerated everything, which is something I do not know when it will be done). I am not sure if AI solved them all, maybe he did and I just did not notice due to my week-long inactivity.

Also, anecdotal evidence based only on my matches suggests that Goko has been missing between 50% and 70% of the logs. That looks high. It is true that if they are randomly chosen, it is not a big deal, but still, I completely distrust rankings at this point. Hopefully it will get better in the near future, but it only made me reinforce my believe that it is best not to use outside rankings for the league.

Major point: If Isotropish is going to be used for anything other than minor tweaks, it would be important to check with AI whether we can trust a certain publication. Maybe even request a full reconstruction of the leaderboard right before getting it, just in case.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 02:32:59 am by soulnet »
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Jdaki

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2014, 04:15:33 am »
+1

I have enjoyed the matches played this season. However a couple of thoughts, it is possible to play multiple games in one week or to play games spread out over weeks. I would suggest rather than insisting one match per week. Perhaps two matches every two weeks. Or just enforce and schedule the matches ie. 1 v 2 week 1. 1 v 3 week 2.
Also I couldn't find the justification for use of game points over match points. Basically if you get thrashed in one match (like I did!) then you can't win because you shipped so many points. Now the group still did come out right, in that rabid is clearly better than me. But I could have just told you that. Leagues (in sport) don't normally mind one off drubbings- you can still capitalise on other slip ups. Anyhow good fun and thanks to stef for organising.
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hvb

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2014, 10:27:56 am »
0

Also I couldn't find the justification for use of game points over match points.

A good example is League D2, where Alan Malloy promoted with 2 wins - 1 tie - 2 losses, while kylar did not with 4 wins and just 1 loss. So whats better?
Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages and its basically a matter of taste what you prefer. I like the actual system a lot, cause I like it that every single game counts and it turned out that in a lot of cases the league remains exiting until the last match and even game is played. In my case for example, I had already played 27 games and 3 games were remaining against AI. If I could have won all 3 it was still possible to win my division, if I would have lost all 3 it was still possible to demote (depending on AI's last match against PG).

So, I wouldnt change too much there, but can see your point. So, why not combine best of both worlds? It may be worth considering, to maintain the point system as it is and give a bonus point as reward for a match-win.
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2014, 11:25:30 am »
0

I have enjoyed the matches played this season. However a couple of thoughts, it is possible to play multiple games in one week or to play games spread out over weeks. I would suggest rather than insisting one match per week. Perhaps two matches every two weeks. Or just enforce and schedule the matches ie. 1 v 2 week 1. 1 v 3 week 2.
I don't understand everything you say.
If you want to play all your 5 matches in the first week, that is absolutely fine.
If you want to play all your 5 matches in the last week, that is not fine.
One match per week has been and always will be "just a suggestion".

Next season, if you fall behind a lot, you will be expected to proactively message the organization.
You could explain the situation, or better yet - schedule some of your remaining matches and announce the dates.
If you don't play, don't message and don't respond - you will be removed from the league.

Also I couldn't find the justification for use of game points over match points. Basically if you get thrashed in one match (like I did!) then you can't win because you shipped so many points. Now the group still did come out right, in that rabid is clearly better than me. But I could have just told you that. Leagues (in sport) don't normally mind one off drubbings- you can still capitalise on other slip ups. Anyhow good fun and thanks to stef for organising.
The justification is really simple - more accurate results. If you want to use only matchpoints, you really need at least 12 matches for it to be meaningful, probably 18+. Otherwise far too many people will end up on equal scores.
I also think the current system is more fair than counting matchpoints... winning 6-0 implies you're a lot better then when you win 3.5-2.5, and you deserve more points.

So, I wouldnt change too much there, but can see your point. So, why not combine best of both worlds? It may be worth considering, to maintain the point system as it is and give a bonus point as reward for a match-win.
If a lot of people like this idea I'm open for it. One or two bonus points for the winner could make close matches more tense. Although to be honest I don't think it changes that much, and perhaps it doesn't justify complicating the rules.
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2014, 11:46:37 am »
+4

I have been playing around with an idea based on chess, and although I don't want to implement it right now, it might come in handy later.
So I just want to hear what you think about it.

We create two new positions, called "champion" and "challenger". While everyone else plays out a regular season, these two play a 20-game duel. The winner of the duel is the new champion, while the loser falls back into division A. The winner of division A gets to be the next challenger. (so it's the equivalent of having a 2-player division on top of A)

Advantages could be
* some special matches, extra fun to stream/watch
     maybe even with non-playing commentator(s)
* possibility to use specially selected sets
     I don't want designed sets, but would like random sets other people played and considered interesting.

and organisational:
* Introducing this system frees up some space at the top. This could come in handy if a lot of good players join / come back.
For example, even just having the option of introducing it would allow me to guarantee A.I. a spot in B when he wants to sit-out in season 2 and return in season 3, without announcing additional demotions up front.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2014, 12:02:28 pm »
+3

We create two new positions, called "champion" and "challenger". While everyone else plays out a regular season, these two play a 20-game duel. The winner of the duel is the new champion, while the loser falls back into division A. The winner of division A gets to be the next challenger. (so it's the equivalent of having a 2-player division on top of A)

It is an interesting idea, and probably cool for spectators, but I think I'd rather play the regular league matches than one big championship match. The appeal for me in Dominion is always the variety, variety of opponents included. I also prefer as relaxed an atmosphere for the league as possible, because the higher the "stakes" the slower everybody plays.

But if everybody wanted to see this format, and I was in one of the two positions, I would do it.
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SCSN

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2014, 12:05:23 pm »
+2

So, I wouldnt change too much there, but can see your point. So, why not combine best of both worlds? It may be worth considering, to maintain the point system as it is and give a bonus point as reward for a match-win.
If a lot of people like this idea I'm open for it. One or two bonus points for the winner could make close matches more tense. Although to be honest I don't think it changes that much, and perhaps it doesn't justify complicating the rules.

Ugh, please no, it pollutes with arbitrary vagueness a system that is pure and elegant as it is.

We create two new positions, called "champion" and "challenger". While everyone else plays out a regular season, these two play a 20-game duel. The winner of the duel is the new champion, while the loser falls back into division A. The winner of division A gets to be the next challenger. (so it's the equivalent of having a 2-player division on top of A)

I REALLY love this idea. I'm all for it, and would also like giving non-playing commentary if the players themselves want to focus on the match.
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liopoil

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2014, 12:36:44 pm »
0

We create two new positions, called "champion" and "challenger". While everyone else plays out a regular season, these two play a 20-game duel. The winner of the duel is the new champion, while the loser falls back into division A. The winner of division A gets to be the next challenger. (so it's the equivalent of having a 2-player division on top of A)

I REALLY love this idea. I'm all for it, and would also like giving non-playing commentary if the players themselves want to focus on the match.
I really like this idea too, fwiw. I like the chess system, and this really is the same.
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silverspawn

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2014, 01:15:06 pm »
+2

So, I wouldnt change too much there, but can see your point. So, why not combine best of both worlds? It may be worth considering, to maintain the point system as it is and give a bonus point as reward for a match-win.
If a lot of people like this idea I'm open for it. One or two bonus points for the winner could make close matches more tense. Although to be honest I don't think it changes that much, and perhaps it doesn't justify complicating the rules.

Ugh, please no, it pollutes with arbitrary vagueness a system that is pure and elegant as it is.
yea, that. If you start counting match wins, all it does is make some games be worth more than others, that's not a good thing. keep it as it is.

GeoLib

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2014, 04:51:38 pm »
0

So, I wouldnt change too much there, but can see your point. So, why not combine best of both worlds? It may be worth considering, to maintain the point system as it is and give a bonus point as reward for a match-win.
If a lot of people like this idea I'm open for it. One or two bonus points for the winner could make close matches more tense. Although to be honest I don't think it changes that much, and perhaps it doesn't justify complicating the rules.

Ugh, please no, it pollutes with arbitrary vagueness a system that is pure and elegant as it is.

Agreed. It makes the system less accurate as well IMO.
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