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-Stef-

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League evaluation
« on: June 14, 2014, 10:37:04 am »
+12

I just want to talk a bit about how it's going and ask some questions.

For starters, I think it's going really well. I see a lot of people playing a lot of matches and enjoying it. I especially liked the little sub-communities that arose in some of the groups.
In most groups it's also really close who is going to win.

The upcoming challenge for the league will be how to deal with people not getting their matches finished on time. I have just removed one player from the C level for not playing any match at all and not responding to messages either for over two weeks. That was a clear-cut case. However, how to deal with those that have finished one or two matches by the end of the season? Whatever happens, I don't want the influence of (semi-)inactive players to be too big. The league should be about the people that do want to play, not about those that don't.

I'm inclined to let it depend on the division you're in. In A, B & C, I just expect you to finish in time. Maybe I'll give you a few more days after the 5 weeks are finished, but that's about it.
If you don't manage to do so, I expect you to explain to me why on your own, and we'll see where we go from there.

I would like to apply the same thing to D-divison, but that's just not going to work. Some of those groups (D2, D6, D7, D8) are really active and no problem whatsoever.
D1 has a level of inactivity where I just don't believe the last week, or even the week after that, will solve anything. The resolution will be simple there: nobody promotes (unless of course they really surprise me in the last week). The hard decision will be what to do with the groups where some players finished all their matches, while others finished only 1 match.

---

Next season, I'll introduce some rules on playing matches. They will probably be
* after week 2, you need to have finished 1 match
* after week 3, you need to have finished 2 matches
* after week 4, you need to have finished 3 matches
If at any point you cannot comply to these rules, send a message to the organisation and explain why. If you don't, you'll be removed from your group.
Also, I intend to get together an 'organizing committee' and assign a member to every group.

Currently I'm inclined to to create an E-divison even if the league doesn't grow. With the current numbers I would rather have had 6 groups in D and 3 groups in E. D would be for people that really want to play competitive dominion, just one level below C. Division E would be for people that still need to prove they really want to be in the league by getting their matches played. With those numbers the rule could even be "Everyone in E that gets all their matches played in 5 weeks gets promoted to D". It's too soon to decide anything for season 2 (I don't know the numbers yet) but something like this sounds like a good plan.

If you have any thoughts/suggestions on this topic - or any other change - please post them here.

---

In the meanwhile, have fun with your remaining matches. After you finished your last match, please post a message in your own groups scheduling thread stating your intentions for next season (I'll be back / I'm quitting).

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soulnet

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 10:59:00 am »
0

I think everything went pretty well. I am willing to be in the organizing committee for next season. I would suggest, at least for A, B and C, to get someone from the actual group to organize the group, to make it easier to focus attention. Unless the organizer assigned to the group is expected to make decisions, in which case someone from outside the group should do it to avoid conflicts of interest (not a big deal in this community, but its easy to avoid it completely).
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yed

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2014, 07:11:57 am »
0

D1 has a level of inactivity where I just don't believe the last week, or even the week after that, will solve anything. The resolution will be simple there: nobody promotes (unless of course they really surprise me in the last week).
That seems hard for Aidan Millow who played 3 4 matches and only did not played against moharimo and ashersky (both with no matches). Are you sure, he is at fault too?

EDIT: It is even 4 matches.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 07:20:28 am by yed »
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2014, 07:42:14 am »
0

D1 has a level of inactivity where I just don't believe the last week, or even the week after that, will solve anything. The resolution will be simple there: nobody promotes (unless of course they really surprise me in the last week).
That seems hard for Aidan Millow who played 3 4 matches and only did not played against moharimo and ashersky (both with no matches). Are you sure, he is at fault too?

EDIT: It is even 4 matches.

It's still a hypothetical discussion because there is another week remaining and who knows what happens. But suppose at the end of the season group D1 still looks like this...

D1 (26%)
rankname                                          averagepoints#played2nd3rd
1.a mad mongoose - marvelously4,54.51042
2.moharimo4,041038
3.mikemike3,031028.5
3.ConMan3,031028.5
5.Aidan Millow2,39.54032
6.ashersky-0000
a mad mongoose - marvelously - Aidan Millow: 4.5 - 1.5
moharimo - Aidan Millow: 4 - 2
mikemike - Aidan Millow: 3 - 3
ConMan - Aidan Millow: 3 - 3

... then I wouldn't promote anyone from this group, and that wouldn't feel hard either. No way I'm going to promote someone who plays only 1 match, and I'm not going to promote someone on 2.3 average either just because the rest is inactive. Aidan Millow would be welcome again in D, whereas everyone else first would have to prove themselves in E. I don't expect people that finish only 1 match want to come back, but who knows they might.
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Joseph2302

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 08:05:48 am »
0

I was going to say the same think looking at group D1.

So to clarify, the suggestion is that anyone who has not played sufficiently many games may be dropped down to a new group E, regardless of what league they're currently in? That seems fair, I don't particularly want no-shows from Group C being in Group D next season to no-show again.

But if you demote some people like this, will this open up more promotion slots, or will this be in place of the relegation of other people from groups i.e. if someone is dropped from C to E, will you relegate one fewer person from C, or promote 1 more from D?
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SCSN

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 08:16:15 am »
+1

What happens if in a group with players A, B, C, D and E, player E has only played against A and C and then drops out, either because he just vanishes or because your rules force him to?

Particularly, what if all other players played all their matches, and the points are such that A would promote and D and E demote as it is, but with a good result against E player B could pass A and player D pass C?

My first thought was to just declare all the matches against E void, but that doesn't sound fair either, because if A beat E with 6-0 and also had some great results against C and D, he'd likely play a bit less focussed and driven against B, or at the very least be more willing to take ties than had he known beforehand that the 6-0 against E wouldn't count.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 09:02:18 am »
0

For starters, I think it's going really well. I see a lot of people playing a lot of matches and enjoying it. I especially liked the little sub-communities that arose in some of the groups.
In most groups it's also really close who is going to win.

I agree, and I'm having lots of fun. It's a nailbiting competition at the moment in D8. :)

Quote
Next season, I'll introduce some rules on playing matches. They will probably be
* after week 2, you need to have finished 1 match
* after week 3, you need to have finished 2 matches
* after week 4, you need to have finished 3 matches
If at any point you cannot comply to these rules, send a message to the organisation and explain why. If you don't, you'll be removed from your group.

You're going to receive a lot of messages this season, since it's mid-summer. Would you be up for extending the summer season a few weeks ?

Quote
Also, I intend to get together an 'organizing committee' and assign a member to every group.

That would mean 15 people - I think that's a bit much. I would propose putting together a "referee" committee (It's what happens in chess) containing :
1 from A, B, C and D + Stef himself. You could make this a rotating system of all "more active" players. They make decisions when there is a problem. The one per division makes sure that if there are conflicts, you have at least 3 people deciding independantly.

For the individual groups, I would just take the most active player and give him the leading role on keeping an eye on the matches. In D8 this was never a problem.

Quote
In the meanwhile, have fun with your remaining matches. After you finished your last match, please post a message in your own groups scheduling thread stating your intentions for next season (I'll be back / I'm quitting).

Stef : could you post this in the Season 2 thread too ?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 09:05:10 am by TheMirrorMan »
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yed

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 09:04:33 am »
+1

My first thought was to just declare all the matches against E void, but that doesn't sound fair either,
That sounds fair to me if it is in the rules and you know it before playing the first match.
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shraeye

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 02:52:22 pm »
0

I'm pretty behind on my schedules, but I'm working to get them in.  I was thinking what should happen if I don't manage to play everybody.  I'm not sure what is fairest actually.  But i suppose if somebody gets just 1 match in, or 2 matches, then discarding their results is reasonable (like Euro qualifiers where results against lowest ranked teams don't count when comparing 2nd place teams because there are smaller groups and such)
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mikemike

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 03:47:55 pm »
+2


D1 has a level of inactivity where I just don't believe the last week, or even the week after that, will solve anything. The resolution will be simple there: nobody promotes (unless of course they really surprise me in the last week).


Fair enough. But for the record, I think we'll have most of our matches done by the deadline (which is when, exactly, by the way? I can't find that info). Ashersky has played 2 or 3 half matches, and I have reached out to all those I haven't played yet.

What was most difficult for me this first season was being placed in a division where I am halfway across the world from my 5 fellow D1ers. A ~12 hour time difference is maybe something I could deal with 2 or 3 times, but having to schedule all 5 matches at a time that is probably weird for both parties is asking a lot (especially, for me, while school is going on, which it is now not as of last week, which I why I saved most of my matches for the end).
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2014, 05:27:08 am »
0

Fair enough. But for the record, I think we'll have most of our matches done by the deadline (which is when, exactly, by the way? I can't find that info). Ashersky has played 2 or 3 half matches, and I have reached out to all those I haven't played yet.
Just getting those matches played is off course by far the best resolution. You can find info about scheduling here.

What was most difficult for me this first season was being placed in a division where I am halfway across the world from my 5 fellow D1ers. A ~12 hour time difference is maybe something I could deal with 2 or 3 times, but having to schedule all 5 matches at a time that is probably weird for both parties is asking a lot (especially, for me, while school is going on, which it is now not as of last week, which I why I saved most of my matches for the end).
I'm sorry for that. Timezone-wise, you're in the worst D-group, I think only A is worse. 12 hours is overdone though, unless I'm mistaken your time differences with the other players are 8, 7, 6, 6 & 4.



You're going to receive a lot of messages this season, since it's mid-summer. Would you be up for extending the summer season a few weeks ?
created a poll.

Quote
Also, I intend to get together an 'organizing committee' and assign a member to every group.

That would mean 15 people - I think that's a bit much.
I was thinking about 3 people each assigned 5 groups.

Quote
In the meanwhile, have fun with your remaining matches. After you finished your last match, please post a message in your own groups scheduling thread stating your intentions for next season (I'll be back / I'm quitting).

Stef : could you post this in the Season 2 thread too ?
It already has been in there for two weeks (?)



What happens if in a group with players A, B, C, D and E, player E has only played against A and C and then drops out, either because he just vanishes or because your rules force him to?

Particularly, what if all other players played all their matches, and the points are such that A would promote and D and E demote as it is, but with a good result against E player B could pass A and player D pass C?

My first thought was to just declare all the matches against E void, but that doesn't sound fair either, because if A beat E with 6-0 and also had some great results against C and D, he'd likely play a bit less focussed and driven against B, or at the very least be more willing to take ties than had he known beforehand that the 6-0 against E wouldn't count.

There is no general rule here, and I will look at each individual case before coming up with a solution. Above all I don't want people to (ab)use any general rulings here.
So far, I removed one player from C1 and in that case I declared his played games void. He finished 5 games and disconnected during the sixth against ADK, who was 3-2 ahead and likely to win the last one. I have no clue if this would have been a good score or a bad one for ADK, as I cannot compare how many games other players would have won against this player.
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liopoil

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 03:37:18 pm »
0

At this point, D1 is farther along than a few other divisions. I think most of the games in all the divisions will be completed in time, and there will be just a couple people which you might need to send to division E, if any.
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ConMan

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 07:17:55 pm »
0

At this point, D1 is farther along than a few other divisions. I think most of the games in all the divisions will be completed in time, and there will be just a couple people which you might need to send to division E, if any.
Somehow the stars aligned and I think about 3 or 4 pairings managed to get their matches finished yesterday, at least that I'm aware of (and likely more).
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-Stef-

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 06:23:51 am »
+5

At this point, D1 is farther along than a few other divisions. I think most of the games in all the divisions will be completed in time, and there will be just a couple people which you might need to send to division E, if any.
Somehow the stars aligned and I think about 3 or 4 pairings managed to get their matches finished yesterday, at least that I'm aware of (and likely more).

Yes very nice. Keep going :)

In the meanwhile, it looks like D2 will be the first to finish. With only one match to go it's a real nail-biter...

D2 (93%)
rankname                                          averagepoints#played2nd3rd
1.michaeljb3,614.540194
2.Alan Malloy3,61850228
3.kylar3,313.544185
4.GeoLib3,115.550209
5.MtMagus2,713.552184
6.kipkoan1,8950130.5
michaeljb - Alan Malloy: 4 - 2
Alan Malloy - kylar: 2 - 4

So if Michaeljb manages to take 3.5 games against kylar he wins the season. If he wins 2, 2.5 or 3 games Allan Malloy wins. If he wins 1.5 game or less, kylar wins the season.
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michaeljb

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 01:01:59 am »
0

I'll be streaming my match with kylar, but I'm afraid it will be a silent stream. My computer's pushing five years old, and the fan goes nuts when doing all the processing to get the stream going, and I don't have an external microphone so you mostly just hear the fan instead of me talking.

We're planning to start the game at 6:30pm PDT tomorrow evening. Tune in at http://www.twitch.tv/michaeljb_13
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ashersky

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2014, 04:10:25 am »
+8

I'll be streaming my match with kylar, but I'm afraid it will be a silent stream. My computer's pushing five years old, and the fan goes nuts when doing all the processing to get the stream going, and I don't have an external microphone so you mostly just hear the fan instead of me talking.

We're planning to start the game at 6:30pm PDT tomorrow evening. Tune in at http://www.twitch.tv/michaeljb_13

Tell your fans to be quiet.  It's not a stadium where they can go crazy.
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Emeric

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2014, 04:47:45 am »
0

B2 (93%)
rankname                                          averagepoints#played2nd3rdSeason2?
1.Monsieur X3,614.540217   ?
2.yed3,517.550222.5   ?
3.silverspawn3,01550195.5  Yes
4.Mr Anderson2,81450208  Yes
5.Jean-Michel2,713.550189  Yes
6.MarkowKette2,39.540133.5   ?
Monsieur X - yed: 3 - 3
Monsieur X - silverspawn: 5 - 1
Monsieur X - Mr Anderson: 4 - 2
Monsieur X - Jean-Michel: 2.5 - 3.5
yed - silverspawn: 4.5 - 1.5
yed - Mr Anderson: 1 - 5
yed - Jean-Michel: 3 - 3
yed - MarkowKette: 6 - 0
silverspawn - Mr Anderson: 4 - 2
silverspawn - Jean-Michel: 4.5 - 1.5
silverspawn - MarkowKette: 4 - 2
Mr Anderson - Jean-Michel: 3.5 - 2.5
Mr Anderson - MarkowKette: 1.5 - 4.5
Jean-Michel - MarkowKette: 3 - 3

So MarkowKette have to win 4,5 points to save his B2 place
And Monsieur X have to win 3 points to go in division A
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yed

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2014, 05:34:29 am »
+3

B2 (93%)
rankname                                          averagepoints#played2nd3rdSeason2?
1.Monsieur X3,614.540217   ?
2.yed3,517.550222.5   ?
3.silverspawn3,01550195.5  Yes
4.Mr Anderson2,81450208  Yes
5.Jean-Michel2,713.550189  Yes
6.MarkowKette2,39.540133.5   ?
Monsieur X - yed: 3 - 3
Monsieur X - silverspawn: 5 - 1
Monsieur X - Mr Anderson: 4 - 2
Monsieur X - Jean-Michel: 2.5 - 3.5
yed - silverspawn: 4.5 - 1.5
yed - Mr Anderson: 1 - 5
yed - Jean-Michel: 3 - 3
yed - MarkowKette: 6 - 0
silverspawn - Mr Anderson: 4 - 2
silverspawn - Jean-Michel: 4.5 - 1.5
silverspawn - MarkowKette: 4 - 2
Mr Anderson - Jean-Michel: 3.5 - 2.5
Mr Anderson - MarkowKette: 1.5 - 4.5
Jean-Michel - MarkowKette: 3 - 3

So MarkowKette have to win 4,5 points to save his B2 place
And Monsieur X have to win 3 points to go in division A
Yes, MarkowKette you can do it!
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MarkowKette

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2014, 08:11:10 am »
0

B2 (93%)
rankname                                          averagepoints#played2nd3rdSeason2?
1.Monsieur X3,614.540217   ?
2.yed3,517.550222.5   ?
3.silverspawn3,01550195.5  Yes
4.Mr Anderson2,81450208  Yes
5.Jean-Michel2,713.550189  Yes
6.MarkowKette2,39.540133.5   ?
Monsieur X - yed: 3 - 3
Monsieur X - silverspawn: 5 - 1
Monsieur X - Mr Anderson: 4 - 2
Monsieur X - Jean-Michel: 2.5 - 3.5
yed - silverspawn: 4.5 - 1.5
yed - Mr Anderson: 1 - 5
yed - Jean-Michel: 3 - 3
yed - MarkowKette: 6 - 0
silverspawn - Mr Anderson: 4 - 2
silverspawn - Jean-Michel: 4.5 - 1.5
silverspawn - MarkowKette: 4 - 2
Mr Anderson - Jean-Michel: 3.5 - 2.5
Mr Anderson - MarkowKette: 1.5 - 4.5
Jean-Michel - MarkowKette: 3 - 3

So MarkowKette have to win 4,5 points to save his B2 place
And Monsieur X have to win 3 points to go in division A
Yes, MarkowKette you can do it!

If this continues like this season went so far it will probably go 3,5-2,5 so that neither of us reaches his goal.
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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2014, 09:15:58 am »
+1

I think the first season went very well so far. For me it was a lot of fun to play competitive dominion in this format and i enjoyed it a lot. And its my impression, that almost all other players enjoyed it a lot as well, it simply is a well thought-out and well executed format.

Its hard to set up strict rules regarding promotion and demotion, if not all matches get played. The situations of the groups will be very different, so will be the reasons for not finishing. I think, it would be best to set up some "soft rules" like Stef did with the guidelines in the Rules&Regulations-Thread.

I suggest to remove all players, who only played 2 games or less (<40 % or <50% of the games is also reasonable) . To be fair regarding de-/promotion, the results of the matches played by those players should be removed as well. It will be often the case, that Player X was able to play a match against the removed player, while player Y wasn`t, although he tried to contact him.

I would also ban these removed players for one season from league. As the active players shouldnt suffer from the inactive ones, the removed player should count as a demoted player. So in Division C1 where already one player has been removed (5 player division now), only #5 in the final standings should demote.


Edit: If two active players dont manage to play their match, the standings shouldnt be affected by that. For example if MX and Markowkette (sry to both for using you in my example  ;) ) in B2 wouldnt manage to play their last match in time, they just dont get any points out of their match and have to live with 0 points. 5 weeks is just a long enough period to play the match for active players. The current standings would be the final one in this example and yed should promote with 17.5 points.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 09:38:16 am by hvb »
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Joseph2302

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 09:31:04 am »
0

I suggest to remove all players, who only played 2 games or less (<40 % or <50% of the games is also reasonable) . To be fair regarding de-/promotion, the results of the matches played by those players should be removed as well. It will be often the case, that Player X was able to play a match against the removed player, while player Y wasn`t, although he tried to contact him.

I would also ban these removed players for one season from league. As the active players shouldnt suffer from the inactive ones, the removed player should count as a demoted player. So in Division C1 where already one player has been removed (5 player division now), only #5 in the final standings should demote.

I agree with all of this, it seems to be a good idea. If you can't schedule more than 2 games in 5 weeks (unless there are exceptional circumstances), then surely you're not going to be able to schedule 5 in 5 next season. Also, the format has been good, most divisions look to be close, and gone down to the final matches, and everyone I've played seems to be friendly, and enjoying it.

I've also enjoyed the variety of matches being streamed, in A,B,C and D divisions, so thanks to everyone who streamed.
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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 03:32:57 pm »
0

also, a question: if we stay in the same division, will be be in the same group within the division i.e. i'm not getting promoted from D6, so will I stay in D6 for next season, or get moved to another D league possibly? I guess it depends on if you restructure D and E as suggested before.
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GeoLib

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 06:22:22 pm »
+3

also, a question: if we stay in the same division, will be be in the same group within the division i.e. i'm not getting promoted from D6, so will I stay in D6 for next season, or get moved to another D league possibly? I guess it depends on if you restructure D and E as suggested before.

I think the best option is to reshuffle by level, but again with considerations for time zone, so the sections will probably look pretty similar to this season.
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PitzerMike

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2014, 05:46:28 am »
+1

Hello -Stef-, well done!
I have not participated myself but I believe much fun was had.
I've followed the results of Stef division down to the Qvist divisions closely with excitement - the lower divisions not so much.
I enjoy reading game reports too.

As far as handling inactive players goes I think people who didn't play at least 2 matches can be removed only if they fail to explain themselves.
Imagine you're the guy who really wants to play some Dominion but gets drawn into a "problem division".
You wouldn't have any matches played although you really wanted to - then you get banned from the league to top it off!


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amalloy

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Re: League evaluation
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2014, 04:27:41 pm »
0

The season is supposed to have ended yesterday, right? But it looks like only four of the fifteen divisions are at 100% completion. Do we now send hired goons to menace those who aren't finished?
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