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[wachsmuth]

Platinum instead of gold can also trigger an unwanted shuffle if Storytellered, if we are still caring about that.

Same deal with Grand Market vs Market, Bazaar vs Village, and so on, sometimes you don't want that extra card drawn.

So I guess it also applies to, say, Necropolis versus Ruined Village, because of the Storyteller/Diadem interaction. Or Festival versus Woodcutter.

[GendoIkari]

Platinum instead of gold can also trigger an unwanted shuffle if Storytellered, if we are still caring about that.

Same deal with Grand Market vs Market, Bazaar vs Village, and so on, sometimes you don't want that extra card drawn.

So I guess it also applies to, say, Necropolis versus Ruined Village, because of the Storyteller/Diadem interaction. Or Festival versus Woodcutter.

Yup. I think we're down to Mining Village, Worker's Village, and Butcher as the only cards that work.

[wachsmuth]

Platinum instead of gold can also trigger an unwanted shuffle if Storytellered, if we are still caring about that.

Same deal with Grand Market vs Market, Bazaar vs Village, and so on, sometimes you don't want that extra card drawn.

So I guess it also applies to, say, Necropolis versus Ruined Village, because of the Storyteller/Diadem interaction. Or Festival versus Woodcutter.

Yup. I think we're down to Mining Village, Worker's Village, and Butcher as the only cards that work.

Is there reason why Messenger isn't better than Woodcutter, Chancellor and Nomad Camp? (I think we're ignoring on-gain abilities, yes?)

Or Walled Village?

[singletee]

Compiling everything I've seen in the thread, I get this list:

Mining Village, Plaza, Walled Village, Worker's Village > Village
Artificer, Market, Treasury > Peddler
Goons > Militia
Alchemist > Laboratory
Butcher > Remodel

If we don't consider on-buy effects:
Messenger > Chancellor, Woodcutter
Port = Village

[wachsmuth]

Compiling everything I've seen in the thread, I get this list:

Mining Village, Plaza, Walled Village, Worker's Village > Village

Is there some obscure edge case where Fortress is a worse card than Village?

Artificer, Market, Treasury > Peddler

Baker comes really close, but it antisynergizes with Black Market and Storyteller

Port = Village

Also Border Village.

Pretty sure Trusty Steed > Lost City works.

How about Nobles > Necropolis? Edit: Never mind, I think Bureaucrat kills this one.

[Roadrunner7671]

Trusty Steed isn't always better than Lost City. Sometimes you want your opponent to draw a card. It can cause a bad shuffle, or mess up their Library engine.

[wachsmuth]

If we ignore on-gain effects, then Trusty Steed is better.

Also, because of Vagrant, none of the other cards are strictly superior to any Ruins. Otherwise, all of these would work...

Herbalist, Peasant, Merchant Guild, Pawn > Abandoned Mine
Storeroom, Pawn > Ruined Market
Cellar, Pawn > Ruined Village
Pawn > Ruined Library

On another note

Journeyman > Smithy works, right?

[eHalcyon]

In order for A > B to be true (barring the universal edge cases), we need these to be true:

1. A and B share the same card types, which matters for Tribute and Jester.
2. A and B are not Treasure cards, which matters for Taxman.
3. A can do everything that B does, or else you will sometimes prefer B to do its special thing.
4. A does not force you to do anything that B doesn't also.

3 prevents a coin token card from being better than a standard virtual coin card, because you may prefer the virtual coin when using Black Market.  Same goes for a card B that has you discard when card A doesn't, due to Tunnel.

4 covers a lot of stuff you might not expect.  If it forces you to draw or even reveal an extra card, that can be undesirable for reshuffle considerations.  If it forces you to attack, that can be bad because your opponents may have reactions that benefit them.  If it forces you to play an extra card or to topdeck something, well there are situations where you don't want those things either.

4 doesn't cover extra coins (virtual or token), because having more money to spend never hurts you.  It doesn't cover extra buys or actions for the same reason.

Gonna quote this again.  The only update for adventures is that 4 does cover extra coins and extra actions because of Storyteller.  Extra Buys are still always good.  I didn't mention it before, but extra VP tokens are fine too.

People have been ignoring on-gain effects recently, but Witherweaver pointed out early on that it does matter because you could trash and gain the card from the trash with Graverobber in a single turn.

I think singletee's list looks right.

Compiling everything I've seen in the thread, I get this list:

Mining Village, Plaza, Walled Village, Worker's Village > Village

Is there some obscure edge case where Fortress is a worse card than Village?

Fortress breaks #4 in my list above.  It forces you to put it back into your hand when you trash it.  Why would this be a bad thing?  Maybe you'd prefer a lower hand-size for a draw-to-X card.  Maybe you want it in the trash in order to block Rogue (e.g. your opponent's because a village is the thing you mind losing the least, or your own because you don't want to flip any of your opponents cards).

[Dingan]

Journeyman > Smithy works, right?

I don't think so because you might want to draw the top 3 cards of your deck (to avoid a shuffle), but you have at least 1 of every card that you can name in your deck, so you can't guarantee you'll draw the top 3 cards.

Also, not sure if it applies to the "rules", but I would think (not revealing) > (revealing).

[Jimmmmm]

If you play a Plaza and there's a 10% chance the card will be better than the coin, you'll discard the card, but 10% of the time you'd rather have had a normal Village.

[singletee]

Journeyman > Smithy works, right?

I don't think so because you might want to draw the top 3 cards of your deck (to avoid a shuffle), but you have at least 1 of every card that you can name in your deck, so you can't guarantee you'll draw the top 3 cards.

Also, not sure if it applies to the "rules", but I would think (not revealing) > (revealing).

You can name the Ace of Spades, but you can never have one in your deck. The issue is with revealing the cards.

[eHalcyon]

Journeyman > Smithy works, right?

I don't think so because you might want to draw the top 3 cards of your deck (to avoid a shuffle), but you have at least 1 of every card that you can name in your deck, so you can't guarantee you'll draw the top 3 cards.

Also, not sure if it applies to the "rules", but I would think (not revealing) > (revealing).

You're allowed to name anything.  You can name the Ace of Spades.

But revealing is indeed covered by the rules.  Journeyman forces you to reveal cards instead of just drawing them, which gives your opponents more information, which means it's not strictly better than Smithy.

If you play a Plaza and there's a 10% chance the card will be better than the coin, you'll discard the card, but 10% of the time you'd rather have had a normal Village.

Plaza doesn't force you to discard anything.  It is Village plus an additional, fully optional ability, so it is a strictly better effect than Village (not counting universal edge cases like Possession).

[wachsmuth]

People have been ignoring on-gain effects recently, but Witherweaver pointed out early on that it does matter because you could trash and gain the card from the trash with Graverobber in a single turn.

I think singletee's list looks right.

If we consider that, it does some funky things with cost, because not all cards can be regained from the trash (cards that are more expensive than $6 in most cases, cards that cost $2 or less and potion-cost cards in all cases). If we consider cost in general, then no cards are strictly better than other cards (the trivial example is Upgrade).

It also impacts Singletee's list, because you can trash and regain a Laboratory, but you can't do that with an Alchemist.

But sure, it matters for comparing cards where both parts can be trashed and regained. That's true I guess.

[Dingan]

You can name the Ace of Spades

Oh, that's why that is there?!?!  I never realized, haha.  I always thought it was just a for-funzies feature Goko/MF put in, like as a joke or something.  I guess it says "Name a card", not "Name a Dominion card", so technically you could say the Queen of hearts or something.  Or Hologram Raichu.

[singletee]

You can name the Ace of Spades

Oh, that's why that is there?!?!  I never realized, haha.  I always thought it was just a for-funzies feature Goko/MF put in, like as a joke or something.  I guess it says "Name a card", not "Name a Dominion card", so technically you could say the Queen of hearts or something.  Or Hologram Raichu.

I like to name the Platinum Yendorian Express Card.

[eHalcyon]

People have been ignoring on-gain effects recently, but Witherweaver pointed out early on that it does matter because you could trash and gain the card from the trash with Graverobber in a single turn.

I think singletee's list looks right.

If we consider that, it does some funky things with cost, because not all cards can be regained from the trash (cards that are more expensive than $6 in most cases, cards that cost $2 or less and potion-cost cards in all cases). If we consider cost in general, then no cards are strictly better than other cards (the trivial example is Upgrade).

It also impacts Singletee's list, because you can trash and regain a Laboratory, but you can't do that with an Alchemist.

But sure, it matters for comparing cards where both parts can be trashed and regained. That's true I guess.

Yeah, all the cost-specific stuff is included in the universal edge cases.  Remodel, Forge, Swinder... there are lots.  Some other universal edge cases include variety-caring cards (e.g. Fairgrounds, Menagerie) and Possession.  A list was compiled earlier in this thread.

But "Graverobber for on-gain effect" isn't a universal thing.  And you're right, it does have an impact on stuff like Lab vs. Alchemist.

[Jimmmmm]

If you play a Plaza and there's a 10% chance the card will be better than the coin, you'll discard the card, but 10% of the time you'd rather have had a normal Village.

Plaza doesn't force you to discard anything.  It is Village plus an additional, fully optional ability, so it is a strictly better effect than Village (not counting universal edge cases like Possession).

But you can make the right decision and still come out worse off some of the time than if you had a normal Village. So sometimes it's better not to be given the decision, you just don't know until later.

[eHalcyon]

If you play a Plaza and there's a 10% chance the card will be better than the coin, you'll discard the card, but 10% of the time you'd rather have had a normal Village.

Plaza doesn't force you to discard anything.  It is Village plus an additional, fully optional ability, so it is a strictly better effect than Village (not counting universal edge cases like Possession).

But you can make the right decision and still come out worse off some of the time than if you had a normal Village. So sometimes it's better not to be given the decision, you just don't know until later.

That has nothing to do with the concept of "strictly better".  If you want, you can just pay Plaza exactly as a Village!  If we accept your argument as a qualification, than no card ever is "strictly better" because a player can make the wrong choice with it.  You'd have to say that Worker's Village is not strictly better than Village because a bad player could choose to use the +Buy to buy Copper every time.

It also sounds like you misunderstand how Plaza works.  After you draw, you may discard a Treasure from your hand to gain a coin token.  Most of the time you'll just be discarding Copper and then deciding whether to use the coin token when the Buy phase starts.

But even if it was something like this:

+2 action
Choose one: +1 Card, or discard the top card or your deck and take a coin token.

That's still a strictly better effect than Village.  You can resolve to always play it as Village (i.e. take the +1 card) unless you are 100% sure that the second choice is better.  The fact that you have that choice makes it strictly better.

[singletee]

If you play a Plaza and there's a 10% chance the card will be better than the coin, you'll discard the card, but 10% of the time you'd rather have had a normal Village.

Plaza doesn't force you to discard anything.  It is Village plus an additional, fully optional ability, so it is a strictly better effect than Village (not counting universal edge cases like Possession).

But you can make the right decision and still come out worse off some of the time than if you had a normal Village. So sometimes it's better not to be given the decision, you just don't know until later.

It's doesn't matter, because you can resolve to always play it as a normal village unless you are 100% sure it cannot result in something worse for you. For example, only use it to discard a potion you don't need and that won't get reshuffled at the wrong time because you discarded it. Only use the resulting coin token if you are ending the game.

[Jimmmmm]

If you play a Plaza and there's a 10% chance the card will be better than the coin, you'll discard the card, but 10% of the time you'd rather have had a normal Village.

Plaza doesn't force you to discard anything.  It is Village plus an additional, fully optional ability, so it is a strictly better effect than Village (not counting universal edge cases like Possession).

But you can make the right decision and still come out worse off some of the time than if you had a normal Village. So sometimes it's better not to be given the decision, you just don't know until later.

That has nothing to do with the concept of "strictly better".  If you want, you can just pay Plaza exactly as a Village!  If we accept your argument as a qualification, than no card ever is "strictly better" because a player can make the wrong choice with it.  You'd have to say that Worker's Village is not strictly better than Village because a bad player could choose to use the +Buy to buy Copper every time.

It also sounds like you misunderstand how Plaza works.  After you draw, you may discard a Treasure from your hand to gain a coin token.  Most of the time you'll just be discarding Copper and then deciding whether to use the coin token when the Buy phase starts.

But even if it was something like this:

+2 action
Choose one: +1 Card, or discard the top card or your deck and take a coin token.

That's still a strictly better effect than Village.  You can resolve to always play it as Village (i.e. take the +1 card) unless you are 100% sure that the second choice is better.  The fact that you have that choice makes it strictly better.

I understand what strictly better means, and I understand what Plaza does.

Okay, consider a Village that also had the effect, "You may flip a coin. If you flip heads, +2 VP. If you flip tails, -1 VP (whatever that means)." Clearly it's usually better to flip the coin, but in doing so you risk repeatedly flipping tails. I don't think it's enough to say, "Well you could have just never flipped the coin." If optimal use of the card can have a negative effect (compared to the card we're comparing it to), I'd say it's not strictly better.

[eHalcyon]

I understand what strictly better means, and I understand what Plaza does.

Okay, consider a Village that also had the effect, "You may flip a coin. If you flip heads, +2 VP. If you flip tails, -1 VP (whatever that means)." Clearly it's usually better to flip the coin, but in doing so you risk repeatedly flipping tails. I don't think it's enough to say, "Well you could have just never flipped the coin." If optimal use of the card can have a negative effect (compared to the card we're comparing it to), I'd say it's not strictly better.

Except it is strictly better, because you could resolve to never use the coin flip effect except when it would 100% benefit you.  And yes, even with this randomness, I can design an edge case to make that happen:

- Two piles are empty and there's only one Ruins remaining.
- You are first player but 1VP behind.
- Your hand is all junk, you have $0.

Now you can safely use this ability for a chance at winning a game you are guaranteed to lose otherwise.  Strictly better.

But even accepting your argument, Plaza isn't like that.  There is no coin flip involved.

[Simon (DK)]

How come cost is a universal edge case, but type isn't?
There's cards that share the same cost and cards that share types.
No 2 different costs can be strictly better than the other, but I'm pretty sure the same goes for types.

[Witherweaver]

Jimmmmm is strictly better than Jim.

[Witherweavermmmm]

Jimmmmm is strictly better than Jim.

I'm strictly better than you.

[eHalcyon]

How come cost is a universal edge case, but type isn't?
There's cards that share the same cost and cards that share types.
No 2 different costs can be strictly better than the other, but I'm pretty sure the same goes for types.

We don't say that about the cost itself.  "Universal edge case" was the term we ended up using for specific cards that can always be used to make one card better than another one which would otherwise be strictly superior.  For example, Possession is a universal edge case because I would want a weaker card in hand when you play Possession.  Likewise, the other universal edge cases also provide ways of making a card with a strictly inferior effect better to have in hand.

We name cost-caring cards like Forge, Remake, Upgrade as "universal" edge cases because they can make you prefer having (for example) Village over Mining Village.  Yes, there are cards that share the same cost, but no such pair of cards in Dominion will have one be strictly superior than the other.  That's also the reason why we are just discussing strictly superior effects rather than strictly superior cards.

By contrast, not counting type as a universal edge case doesn't invalidate every potential case of one card being strictly superior.  It's not universal.

I found this difficult to explain.  Does that make sense?