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Author Topic: Strictly better than....  (Read 111048 times)

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Hydrad

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2014, 11:42:04 am »
0

Ah I misunderstood. I thought he was saying something like if you guess it right twice it won't trigger the shuffle. Thanks
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2014, 04:25:48 pm »
0

I think this whole list dissolved down to these concrete comparisons (ignoring cost, as stated) that I can remember from this thread:

Goons>Militia
Expand>Remodel
Nobles>Necropolis (sure there is an edge case here)
Walled Village, Worker's Village, Bazaar, etc.>Village
Bazaar, Market, GM>Peddler

...And possibly Diadem>Copper,Silver

Am I wrong with the last one?
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Polk5440

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2014, 04:29:50 pm »
0


...And possibly Diadem>Copper,Silver

Am I wrong with the last one?

Counting House doesn't work on Diadem....

But if you are comparing Copper in hand to Diadem in hand, then Coppersmith.
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amalloy

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2014, 04:31:36 pm »
0

I think this whole list dissolved down to these concrete comparisons (ignoring cost, as stated) that I can remember from this thread:

Goons>Militia
Expand>Remodel
Nobles>Necropolis (sure there is an edge case here)
Walled Village, Worker's Village, Bazaar, etc.>Village
Bazaar, Market, GM>Peddler

...And possibly Diadem>Copper,Silver

Am I wrong with the last one?

I'd rather have a Necropolis in my deck than a Nobles if my opponent is playing Tribute. In hand, I'd prefer a Necropolis if I need to play Crossroads for actions but don't want to trigger a shuffle (Edit okay this one makes no sense I can just play the Nobles for actions first). The list goes on.

And there was a generic edge case for Treasures already: because of Taxman, no Treasure is ever strictly better than another: if what I really need is to force my opponent to discard a Silver, then having a Diadem does me no good.
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #229 on: October 03, 2014, 04:45:52 am »
0

Followers>Witch, entertain me with an edge case.
Noble Steed > Laboratory, no edge case here.
Hunting Grounds > Smithy, probably an edge case.
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Zappie

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #230 on: October 03, 2014, 04:56:16 am »
+1

Followers grap(s) the last estate, causing you to lose on a three pile ending.
HG smithy is like a lot of other cards that force a bad reshuffle. In this case,it can also be trashed by knight, forcing you to draw green.

Noble steed is a name i like a lot.
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #231 on: October 03, 2014, 05:07:08 am »
+2

Followers>Witch, entertain me with an edge case.
You don't want the Estate in your deck? Actually, that's pretty much every time so it probably doesn't count as an edge case.
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silverspawn

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #232 on: October 03, 2014, 05:10:05 am »
+1

You could probably rule out a lot of examples by thinking about them a little, especially when the edgecase is really obvious like it is for followers. even the discard can totally be an advantage for draw-to-x, menagerie

soulnet

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #233 on: October 03, 2014, 11:47:36 am »
+1

You could probably rule out a lot of examples by thinking about them a little, especially when the edgecase is really obvious like it is for followers. even the discard can totally be an advantage for draw-to-x, menagerie

Not everyone is as smart as you.
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Polk5440

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #234 on: October 03, 2014, 01:28:20 pm »
0

You could probably rule out a lot of examples by thinking about them a little, especially when the edgecase is really obvious like it is for followers. even the discard can totally be an advantage for draw-to-x, menagerie

Not everyone is as smart into Dominion as you.
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sudgy

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #235 on: October 03, 2014, 01:44:31 pm »
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Noble Steed > Laboratory, no edge case here.

I feel like there has to be something with something like Black Market+Diadem+Poor House, but I can't think of anything yet...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #236 on: October 03, 2014, 01:49:12 pm »
0

Diadem>Masterpiece

As already discussed, Taxman.  For this specific case, there's also Mint (can't mint a Diadem).




In order for A > B to be true (barring the universal edge cases), we need these to be true:

1. A and B share the same card types, which matters for Tribute and Jester.
2. A and B are not Treasure cards, which matters for Taxman.
3. A can do everything that B does, or else you will sometimes prefer B to do its special thing.
4. A does not force you to do anything that B doesn't also.

3 prevents a coin token card from being better than a standard virtual coin card, because you may prefer the virtual coin when using Black Market.  Same goes for a card B that has you discard when card A doesn't, due to Tunnel.

4 covers a lot of stuff you might not expect.  If it forces you to draw or even reveal an extra card, that can be undesirable for reshuffle considerations.  If it forces you to attack, that can be bad because your opponents may have reactions that benefit them.  If it forces you to play an extra card or to topdeck something, well there are situations where you don't want those things either.

4 doesn't cover extra coins (virtual or token), because having more money to spend never hurts you.  It doesn't cover extra buys or actions for the same reason.

I posted this checklist much earlier in the thread.  It should help you, Flip5ide.

Trusty Steed > Laboratory passes these tests.
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silverspawn

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #237 on: October 03, 2014, 03:28:22 pm »
+3

how about a card that doesn't ignore the universal edge case? even if two cards cost the same, and have the same name, the better card could still be bad for the fact that it  makes your opponent buy it incorrectly. or, your opponent will discard the better card with his spy, but he will let you keep the weak card, even though it's correct play to discard either.

so, you need a card that's better without anyone realizing it. silently replace great hall in a game with a great hall. the great hall has "+1 Card, +1 Action, worth 1VP" It also has "+1 VP" on play, but that's not printed on the card. You also can't let the players know what changed at the end of the game, because that might affect their psyche for the next game. because the new card has to look exactly like the old card anyway, you don't even have to design a new one. just switch them without doing anything. if a player wins by this effect, which is reasonably likely, he won't ever know. but you will know. He will have won. at least, in your head. because great hall is strictly!!!!! better than great hall.

amalloy

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #238 on: October 03, 2014, 03:56:27 pm »
+6

how about a card that doesn't ignore the universal edge case? even if two cards cost the same, and have the same name, the better card could still be bad for the fact that it  makes your opponent buy it incorrectly. or, your opponent will discard the better card with his spy, but he will let you keep the weak card, even though it's correct play to discard either.

so, you need a card that's better without anyone realizing it. silently replace great hall in a game with a great hall. the great hall has "+1 Card, +1 Action, worth 1VP" It also has "+1 VP" on play, but that's not printed on the card. You also can't let the players know what changed at the end of the game, because that might affect their psyche for the next game. because the new card has to look exactly like the old card anyway, you don't even have to design a new one. just switch them without doing anything. if a player wins by this effect, which is reasonably likely, he won't ever know. but you will know. He will have won. at least, in your head. because great hall is strictly!!!!! better than great hall.

What...?
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #239 on: October 04, 2014, 07:47:46 am »
0

You could probably rule out a lot of examples by thinking about them a little, especially when the edgecase is really obvious like it is for followers. even the discard can totally be an advantage for draw-to-x, menagerie

I literally just posted those examples to keep the thread going. Feigning ignorance a little.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #240 on: October 04, 2014, 02:24:50 pm »
+2

You could probably rule out a lot of examples by thinking about them a little, especially when the edgecase is really obvious like it is for followers. even the discard can totally be an advantage for draw-to-x, menagerie

I literally just posted those examples to keep the thread going. Feigning ignorance a little.

Why? If the thread has run its course, let it die peacefully.
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silverspawn

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #241 on: October 04, 2014, 02:40:48 pm »
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actually, my example doesn't work because of masquerade/rogue trash->gain. the +1 VP needs to be on buy instead, then it should be perfect.

Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #242 on: October 05, 2014, 12:10:32 am »
0

You could probably rule out a lot of examples by thinking about them a little, especially when the edgecase is really obvious like it is for followers. even the discard can totally be an advantage for draw-to-x, menagerie

I literally just posted those examples to keep the thread going. Feigning ignorance a little.

Why? If the thread has run its course, let it die peacefully.

.... RIP thread
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #243 on: February 26, 2015, 05:34:36 am »
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I just said that cards can't be strictly better if they don't share the same type.  The reason they can't be strictly better is because there are lots of cards that care about type, so there are situations when you would, for example, prefer to have a Curse to a Copper.

It is possible there is a type pairing that doesn't actually matter, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

What is a plausible edge case where you would prefer a curse to a copper, barring Fairgrounds, Masquerade, etc.?
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #244 on: February 26, 2015, 05:51:28 am »
0

I just said that cards can't be strictly better if they don't share the same type.  The reason they can't be strictly better is because there are lots of cards that care about type, so there are situations when you would, for example, prefer to have a Curse to a Copper.

It is possible there is a type pairing that doesn't actually matter, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

What is a plausible edge case where you would prefer a curse to a copper, barring Fairgrounds, Masquerade, etc.?

I frequently trash Coppers over Curses in Mountebank games.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #245 on: February 26, 2015, 11:40:57 am »
+1

I just said that cards can't be strictly better if they don't share the same type.  The reason they can't be strictly better is because there are lots of cards that care about type, so there are situations when you would, for example, prefer to have a Curse to a Copper.

It is possible there is a type pairing that doesn't actually matter, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

What is a plausible edge case where you would prefer a curse to a copper, barring Fairgrounds, Masquerade, etc.?

I mean, this is a question about what is and isn't allowed for this definition. 

I think it is reasonable to restrict cases where the only reason you want one card over another is because it is a different card (Fairgrounds, Menagerie, ect) This is an obvious restriction because you aren't really preferring B over A, but rather preferring anything that is not A over A.

I think it is also reasonable to restrict cases where you want a worse card. (Possession, Masquerade, Opponent's Tribute, Ect.) I don't even think this case has any merit, because it isn't describing a case where card B is better than card A, but rather just a situation where you happen to prefer the card that is worse.  (This should really cover situations where you would prefer to draw less cards due to shuffle timing also.)

The grey area is regarding cards that care about specific cards or types of cards.  Does Tournament's existence make a VP card that costs $8 and is worth 7VP not strictly better than Province?  I think people will have differing opinions here.  If you don't think this one counts, then Awaclus' example doesn't either.  Personally I think everything within the scope of the official cards is fair game outside of the above exclusions.  Off the top of my head, Poor House is another reason to prefer Curse over Copper.

I think the only worthwhile discussion here is what is the point of "strictly better" in the first place. "Strictly better" is usually part of discussing how to properly price fan cards. If your card is strictly better than Laboratory (+2 cards +2 actions) you probably need to price it higher than $5 or add some sort of penalty.

But... Does this have any merit that "almost strictly better" doesn't.  Probably not beyond puzzle threads like this one.  No one is going to say that the  $8/7VP Super Province is a good card just because you might prefer Province on a Tournament board.

So what's my point... I don't know anymore. Somehow I got into an argument about "strictly better".  My opponents have the opinion (I think) that Copper is strictly better than Curse because the edge cases are too insignificant. My opinion is that strictly means no edge cases. Ultimately Witherweaver suggested that "not having another strictly better discussion is strictly better than having one" which I can certainly agree with.

Awaclus

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #246 on: February 26, 2015, 11:45:25 am »
+1

I don't even think this case has any merit, because it isn't describing a case where card B is better than card A, but rather just a situation where you happen to prefer the card that is worse.  (This should really cover situations where you would prefer to draw less cards due to shuffle timing also.)

But how do you define "better"?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #247 on: February 26, 2015, 12:05:06 pm »
0

Better

Edit: In all seriousness, I don't think my statement there is that complicated or confusing.  I don't think those so called "Edge Cases" have merit.  This is the same as saying Colony is better than Estate - Edge Case: it is in my opponents deck! No, the Estate isn't "better", it is "better" for me if my opponent has the card that is not "better".  It does not change the relative worth of the two cards, it only describes a scenario where the worse card is preferred.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 12:15:10 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Awaclus

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #248 on: February 26, 2015, 12:08:27 pm »
0

Better

How do you apply those definitions to Dominion?
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polot38

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #249 on: February 26, 2015, 12:26:28 pm »
+1

Mandarin and Count.

Notice that the question was about which one was strictly better to have in your hand, and the only thing that makes count not strictly superior to mandarin is mandarins on-buy effect.

There are also obvious ones, like expand/remodel.

Also, depending on what you mean by "ignoring prices", peddler and market.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 12:30:12 pm by polot38 »
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