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Author Topic: Strictly better than....  (Read 111054 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #175 on: June 24, 2014, 10:07:32 am »
+1

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

I maintain you can not ignore on-gain effects, because the card can be trashed (from your hand) and gained (from the trash) during your turn.  E.g., Border Village.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #176 on: June 24, 2014, 11:24:34 am »
0

Baker > Peddler

I mean sure Baker has the setup clause, but otherwise they function similarly enough.

Black Market.
So... Apparently the rule book for Guilds says you can't spend coin tokens when you play Black Market. I did not know that...
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #177 on: June 24, 2014, 01:09:41 pm »
0

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?
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sudgy

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #178 on: June 24, 2014, 01:16:29 pm »
+1

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?

You want to procession it then play a draw to x card afterwards.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

amalloy

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #179 on: June 24, 2014, 01:57:20 pm »
+4

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?

You want to procession it then play a draw to x card afterwards.

That's no answer. You can easily draw to x anyway and then play Fortress to replace itself (or play the Fortress first, whatever). You'll have the same number of non-Fortress cards. But there is at least one edge case in the direction you were going: your hand is Procession, Library, Fortress/Village, and five junk cards. You'd like to upgrade via Procession, and then you desperately want to draw your Storeroom to recycle all this junk for coins. All the cards remaining in your deck are actions, so if you Procession Village and have seven cards left, you can use Library to home in on the one card you wanted; getting the Fortress back in your hand leaves you with eight cards and a dead Library.

Or, a more mundane edge case: you've built a BM/Smithy deck, and your opponent has used Ambassador (or Swindler, whatever) to give you a Fortress which is just getting in the way by drawing itself dead. Now he plays a Bishop: you'd rather your Fortress were a Village.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #180 on: June 24, 2014, 01:59:17 pm »
+1

Edge Case Level: Impressive.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #181 on: June 24, 2014, 02:07:37 pm »
0

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?

You want to procession it then play a draw to x card afterwards.

That's no answer. You can easily draw to x anyway and then play Fortress to replace itself (or play the Fortress first, whatever). You'll have the same number of non-Fortress cards. But there is at least one edge case in the direction you were going: your hand is Procession, Library, Fortress/Village, and five junk cards. You'd like to upgrade via Procession, and then you desperately want to draw your Storeroom to recycle all this junk for coins. All the cards remaining in your deck are actions, so if you Procession Village and have seven cards left, you can use Library to home in on the one card you wanted; getting the Fortress back in your hand leaves you with eight cards and a dead Library.

It was that type of situation I was talking about.  I thought that posting the simple answer would be enough.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #182 on: June 24, 2014, 10:59:33 pm »
0

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?

You want to procession it then play a draw to x card afterwards.

That's no answer. You can easily draw to x anyway and then play Fortress to replace itself (or play the Fortress first, whatever). You'll have the same number of non-Fortress cards. But there is at least one edge case in the direction you were going: your hand is Procession, Library, Fortress/Village, and five junk cards. You'd like to upgrade via Procession, and then you desperately want to draw your Storeroom to recycle all this junk for coins. All the cards remaining in your deck are actions, so if you Procession Village and have seven cards left, you can use Library to home in on the one card you wanted; getting the Fortress back in your hand leaves you with eight cards and a dead Library.

It was that type of situation I was talking about.  I thought that posting the simple answer would be enough.

I think if you had said "Library" instead of "Draw to x", then it would have been enough. But Library is the only draw to x where it matters.
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jomini

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2014, 05:12:48 pm »
0

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?

Yes. Swindler. When Fortress is Swindled you can be forced to gain more Fortresses. This makes your deck larger over time and decreases the chance that Swindler will hit Prince/Peddler to get a mandatory province or reduces the odds that you will have some killer reaction card in hand over time.

E.g. You have a Feodum/Beggar setup. Your opponent swindles Feodums into Fortresses. He hits the first Fortress he gives you, you get a bonus new Fortress. Odds of your opponent triggering your Beggars go down with every Fortress added to the deck. Up until your opponent is forced to swindle a Fortress into a Feodum, you'd much rather have a higher concentration of Beggars than having more Fortresses.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2014, 11:22:02 pm »
0

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Fortress, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Squire, Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

So tell me... is there a case where Fortress is worse than Village?

Yes. Swindler. When Fortress is Swindled you can be forced to gain more Fortresses. This makes your deck larger over time and decreases the chance that Swindler will hit Prince/Peddler to get a mandatory province or reduces the odds that you will have some killer reaction card in hand over time.

E.g. You have a Feodum/Beggar setup. Your opponent swindles Feodums into Fortresses. He hits the first Fortress he gives you, you get a bonus new Fortress. Odds of your opponent triggering your Beggars go down with every Fortress added to the deck. Up until your opponent is forced to swindle a Fortress into a Feodum, you'd much rather have a higher concentration of Beggars than having more Fortresses.

Edgy.
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soulnet

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #185 on: July 01, 2014, 07:30:58 am »
+1

Easier edge case (and also better, because the card is in hand and not in deck) is Rogue. You may want to avoid attacking with Rogue (because you would discard two Curses that your Rabbles let there). You have Forager in hand. You could trash Village and regain it with Rogue, but trashing Fortresses leaves the trash with nothing to gain, so you are forced to attack.

Menagerie is a reason to want a card out of your hand, and you can get rid of Village by trashing it, but not Fortress. But we were already ruling out Menagerie.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #186 on: July 04, 2014, 11:51:46 am »
0

yall...
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #187 on: July 04, 2014, 07:30:37 pm »
+1

Could someone make a list of all the "strictly better" found? I think we have:

walled/workers/mining village/bazaar/plaza > village > ruined library
grand market > market > peddler > ruined library
treasury/bazaar > peddler
festival > woodcutter > abandoned mine/ruined market
chancellor > abandoned mine
festival/university> necropolis > ruined village
level 3/2 city/alchemist/noble steed > laboratory (although cities have the problem of ambassador...)
expand/butcher> remodel
goons > militia
journeyman > smithy (... it does give some information to your opponent)
count > mandarin (unless black market and rogue/graverobber get involved, maybe? I can edit this out)

EDIT: oh hey, navical did this in the last post of page seven, now I feel smart and useful.
EDIT 2: I think it would be interesting to ignore taxman to compare the different treasures.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 08:02:01 pm by pacovf »
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Joseph2302

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #188 on: July 04, 2014, 07:37:00 pm »
+3

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #189 on: July 05, 2014, 04:05:37 pm »
0

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #190 on: July 05, 2014, 05:10:43 pm »
0

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
No. It's possible that the Stonemason you want to overpay for already costs $0.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2014, 05:11:46 pm »
0

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
No. It's possible that the Stonemason you want to overpay for already costs $0.

It still lowers the cost of the thing you gain to gain though.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #192 on: July 05, 2014, 05:25:13 pm »
+2

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
Throne room/king's court/procession
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #193 on: July 05, 2014, 05:48:34 pm »
0

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
No. It's possible that the Stonemason you want to overpay for already costs $0.

It still lowers the cost of the thing you gain to gain though.

Right. And you can't overpay $0, which was the point. If you play Highway/Peddler/Copper, you can gain three Stonemasons for $2 and one buy. With Highway/Highway/Copper, you need three buys and $3.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #194 on: July 05, 2014, 07:06:44 pm »
0

that's actually one of the more relevant edge cases. I recall a bunch of games where I couldn't use the overpay because the card I wanted cost 0$

KingZog3

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #195 on: July 05, 2014, 10:20:22 pm »
0

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
No. It's possible that the Stonemason you want to overpay for already costs $0.

It still lowers the cost of the thing you gain to gain though.

Right. And you can't overpay $0, which was the point. If you play Highway/Peddler/Copper, you can gain three Stonemasons for $2 and one buy. With Highway/Highway/Copper, you need three buys and $3.

Right. I actually was thinking more that it doesn't matter if stonemason is $0, only if the other card is as well, since Awaclus said Stonemason costing zero.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #196 on: July 05, 2014, 10:31:10 pm »
+1

baker > peddler

No, not with black market, as the coin token from baker can't be spent in Black Market, but $1 from Peddler can.

So does Highway>Peddler hold up?
No. It's possible that the Stonemason you want to overpay for already costs $0.

It still lowers the cost of the thing you gain to gain though.

Right. And you can't overpay $0, which was the point. If you play Highway/Peddler/Copper, you can gain three Stonemasons for $2 and one buy. With Highway/Highway/Copper, you need three buys and $3.

Right. I actually was thinking more that it doesn't matter if stonemason is $0, only if the other card is as well, since Awaclus said Stonemason costing zero.
I was originally going to write Masterpiece, then I realized that it's more relevant for Stonemason and changed the card, but forgot to change the rest of the sentence.
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Jasoba

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #197 on: July 08, 2014, 06:07:05 pm »
0

iso>goku?

meh edge case if you want to play with bots.
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #198 on: July 08, 2014, 06:24:18 pm »
+7

iso>goku?

meh edge case if you want to play with bots.

That cannot be, iso 9000, while goku>9000
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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #199 on: August 14, 2014, 12:58:52 pm »
0

So unless someone can convince me that there actually is a scenario where a player trying to win would rather not have to put a card on top of your deck, I'm sticking with the assertion that Scavenger is strictly better than Chancellor.

There are just some things that are always good, like virtual coins, coin tokens +buy, and +actions, without the presence of Possession, etc. of course.
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