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Author Topic: Strictly better than....  (Read 111112 times)

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amalloy

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #150 on: June 18, 2014, 08:28:16 pm »
+2

You're abusing the term "strictly", which should mean "in every situation".  If A is only better than B in some situations, it isn't strictly better.  It's merely better in that situation.  And that's fine.  Absolutely price can make some cards better in a specific situation.  The easiest example for this is Forge; we don't need all the hyper-specific examples you gave above.

This is actually a perfectly fine way to use "strictly": "In situation X, card A is strictly better than card B" is well defined and meaningful: in situation X, there's nothing you'd like better about B than A. This is in contrast with "In situation X, card A is better that card B", which could mean that B has some better aspects and A has some better aspects, but you like A better on the whole.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #151 on: June 18, 2014, 08:33:34 pm »
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Eh, fair enough.
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KingZog3

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2014, 08:44:28 pm »
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Eh, fair enough.

Your picture is still wrong. Change it please. Thanks.

(Bringing this across threads!)
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navical

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #153 on: June 18, 2014, 09:32:54 pm »
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Any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude Possession/Masquerade/Ambassador, as well as the card's cost.  I would argue that "Opponents are more likely to discard it with Spy" also should be excluded.

I disagree that cost should be excluded.  "Strictly better" should include price, and if we want to ignore the cost to purchase (or gain) the card then we should use the term "strictly better effect".  These separate terms are useful when discussing fan cards.

Yes. But we're not discussing fan cards here. theory's original statement was pretty clearly meant as 'in the context of this question, any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude... etc'.
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enfynet

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #154 on: June 18, 2014, 09:57:04 pm »
0

Dominion is strictly better than __________?
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silverspawn

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #155 on: June 18, 2014, 10:15:14 pm »
0

Dominion is strictly better than __________?
Dominion', which is just like dominion except that smithy allows you to look at the top 3 cards of your deck before drawing them

eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2014, 12:00:20 am »
0

Any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude Possession/Masquerade/Ambassador, as well as the card's cost.  I would argue that "Opponents are more likely to discard it with Spy" also should be excluded.

I disagree that cost should be excluded.  "Strictly better" should include price, and if we want to ignore the cost to purchase (or gain) the card then we should use the term "strictly better effect".  These separate terms are useful when discussing fan cards.



Yes. But we're not discussing fan cards here. theory's original statement was pretty clearly meant as 'in the context of this question, any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude... etc'.

Well we've already compiled a list for that.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 12:01:42 am by eHalcyon »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #157 on: June 19, 2014, 03:59:23 pm »
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I haven't read the whole thread, but the answer to the OP is definitely "none". If we are allowing "all edge cases considered", then we have to include the cost of the card, because we might want to trash it to a Remodel or something. Thus Expand and Remodel don't work as a pair.

Also, drawing more cards isn't always better, because you might not want to reshuffle.

*Edit* I misread "prices don't matter" in the OP as "prizes don't matter". I was confused as to why he was excluding prizes.

In that case, the answer is basically "all $4 and $5 Villages".
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 04:01:27 pm by GendoIkari »
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #158 on: June 21, 2014, 04:41:14 pm »
0

So is there a situation where Laboratory isn't better than Vagrant or Wishing Well?
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liopoil

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #159 on: June 21, 2014, 04:43:39 pm »
0

So is there a situation where Laboratory isn't better than Vagrant or Wishing Well?
yes, when you don't want to draw another card because you know it is a good card and would rather it be in your next hand. Or when you want to know the top card of your deck for native village or something.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #160 on: June 21, 2014, 06:30:20 pm »
0

So is there a situation where Laboratory isn't better than Vagrant or Wishing Well?
yes, when you don't want to draw another card because you know it is a good card and would rather it be in your next hand. Or when you want to know the top card of your deck for native village or something.

Or you just don't want to trigger a reshuffle.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #161 on: June 21, 2014, 06:36:10 pm »
+3

So is there a situation where Laboratory isn't better than Vagrant or Wishing Well?
yes, when you don't want to draw another card because you know it is a good card and would rather it be in your next hand. Or when you want to know the top card of your deck for native village or something.

Or you just don't want to trigger a reshuffle.

Well, Vagrant and Wishing Well look at the top card, so will trigger that shuffle.  Unless you're considering playing more potential drawing cards after.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #162 on: June 21, 2014, 06:38:14 pm »
0

So is there a situation where Laboratory isn't better than Vagrant or Wishing Well?
yes, when you don't want to draw another card because you know it is a good card and would rather it be in your next hand. Or when you want to know the top card of your deck for native village or something.

Or you just don't want to trigger a reshuffle.

Well, Vagrant and Wishing Well look at the top card, so will trigger that shuffle.  Unless you're considering playing more potential drawing cards after.

Yeah, I just finished reading page 1 where the same thing was said and refuted, so I came here to delete my post, but too late I guess.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #163 on: June 21, 2014, 06:44:25 pm »
0

A few more:

Journeyman/Catacombs>Smithy always.
GM>Mystic
Lab>Vagrant
Alchemist>Lab
Treasury>Peddler

Not sure if already refuted, but.. GM Mystic and Lab Vagrant don't work for the same reason as lab Wishing Well... Sometimes you'd rather have the card next turn than this turn, and possible unwanted reshuffling when combined with something like lab.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #164 on: June 21, 2014, 06:54:34 pm »
0

Revised list of cards we have to ignore for there to be any cards strictly better than another:

Possession
Masquerade
Ambassador
Horn of Plenty
Menagerie
Hunting Party
Forge
Remake
Upgrade
Governor
Procession (only for actions)
Taxman (only for treasures)
Rogue (only for cards costing 3+)
Graverobber (only for cards costing 3+)

Also Apprentice. (Cheaper cards avoid triggering reshuffles.)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #165 on: June 21, 2014, 07:09:03 pm »
0

So is there a situation where Laboratory isn't better than Vagrant or Wishing Well?
yes, when you don't want to draw another card because you know it is a good card and would rather it be in your next hand. Or when you want to know the top card of your deck for native village or something.

Or you just don't want to trigger a reshuffle.

Well, Vagrant and Wishing Well look at the top card, so will trigger that shuffle.  Unless you're considering playing more potential drawing cards after.

Yeah, I just finished reading page 1 where the same thing was said and refuted, so I came here to delete my post, but too late I guess.

Well I was the one that got refuted the first time, so I had to jump on it here :)
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Davio

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #166 on: June 22, 2014, 04:30:47 am »
0

A few more:

Journeyman/Catacombs>Smithy always.
GM>Mystic
Lab>Vagrant
Alchemist>Lab
Treasury>Peddler

Not sure if already refuted, but.. GM Mystic and Lab Vagrant don't work for the same reason as lab Wishing Well... Sometimes you'd rather have the card next turn than this turn, and possible unwanted reshuffling when combined with something like lab.
And I'd like to see you Remodel that Treasury into a Province without cost reducers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #167 on: June 22, 2014, 10:17:14 am »
0

A few more:

Journeyman/Catacombs>Smithy always.
GM>Mystic
Lab>Vagrant
Alchemist>Lab
Treasury>Peddler

Not sure if already refuted, but.. GM Mystic and Lab Vagrant don't work for the same reason as lab Wishing Well... Sometimes you'd rather have the card next turn than this turn, and possible unwanted reshuffling when combined with something like lab.
And I'd like to see you Remodel that Treasury into a Province without cost reducers.

We already ruled out using cost-specific cards because they create universal edge cases (e.g. sometimes you need a specific cost for Forge; you may prefer to Apprentice a lower cost card so as not to trigger a reshuffle).
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jomini

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #168 on: June 22, 2014, 11:58:06 pm »
0

The problem with including price is that it creates universal edge cases about three piling that don't care at all about the card mechanics.

This is why I made a distinction between "strictly better" and "strictly better effect".

Purchase price is only part of the concern with cost. With a Haggler in play and having bought a colony "price" is meaningless, but there are times I want any $4 over any possible $5; most obviously with Forge. Price has to be ignored or I can edge case any cards of differing price. Woodcutters vs Festival is literally the same effects +extra actions, but if we concern ourselves with price (even ignoring purchase price), there are times where Woodcutters beat Festival.


This description is a bit convoluted.  Garden->SR or vice versa says nothing about price because they both cost $4.  Your $7+ example makes no sense because the $8 card can fill in for the $7 card just as well.  You can switch to using Upgrade though, but that's certainly something worth considering that can make you prefer a $7 card over a card at another price point.

They are convoluted to avoid easy edge-casing. The point being cards like Remake, Forge, Upgrade, Governor, Apprentice, Graverobber, Rogue, Knights, Sab, etc. all can create edge cases where point values make things difficult.

Quote
You're abusing the term "strictly", which should mean "in every situation".  If A is only better than B in some situations, it isn't strictly better.  It's merely better in that situation.  And that's fine.  Absolutely price can make some cards better in a specific situation.  The easiest example for this is Forge; we don't need all the hyper-specific examples you gave above.

Not at all. If A is strictly better than B, then A > B holds in all possible situations. Festival > Woodcutters is true for all non-nearly universal edge cases (e.g. Possession wants crappy cards in your deck, you want to pass something worse with Masq, $3 + Peddler = colony with Forge). VP card > Curse actually only holds true for a subset of all possible game states; first you have to ignore game states where grabbing a curse can be good of its own right (Ambassador/Fairgrounds/Mountebank, etc.). Then you need to get rid of times where 3-piling makes curse buying the right move. Then you need to get rid of cases where you care only about the fact that curse is 0 cost card (e.g. an Embargoed curse pile makes curse "buys" better for Trader). Then you need to get out into the weeds where stuff cares about the fact that curses are worth 0 (e.g. Remake, Upgrade, etc. when Poor house needs to be gained and the copper pile is empty).

Any rubric that allows us to say that Woodcutters > Festival or Curse > anything else is likely just showing us near universal edge cases.

Ignoring worth has its own problems, most notably Peddler has major issues where stuff that has some additional effect is "strictly better", but Peddler can be bought in bulk or bought cheap but trashed high, but the answer is either "nothing is strictly better than anything else" or we adopt some basic guidelines (which due to the richness of Dominion need to be pretty long) to ignore the near universal edge cases.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #169 on: June 23, 2014, 12:35:32 am »
+1

I'm not sure what your point was then.  We'd already been discussing "universal edge cases" since the start of the thread.
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #170 on: June 23, 2014, 11:32:40 am »
0

Either way, Festival>Woodcutter is a good one.
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Joseph2302

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #171 on: June 23, 2014, 05:54:52 pm »
0

Walled Village > Village
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enfynet

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #172 on: June 24, 2014, 12:54:37 am »
0

Baker > Peddler

I mean sure Baker has the setup clause, but otherwise they function similarly enough.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #173 on: June 24, 2014, 01:02:24 am »
0

Baker > Peddler

I mean sure Baker has the setup clause, but otherwise they function similarly enough.

Black Market.

navical

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #174 on: June 24, 2014, 05:57:25 am »
+1

Ignoring universal edge cases and on-gain effects, but not on-trash effects, I came up with the following list: (ignoring Ruins and non-Action cards). This is mostly a compilation of things already mentioned in this thread with a few I've added myself.

Bazaar, Worker's Village, Walled Village, Mining Village, Plaza > Village, Border Village
Grand Market, Market, Treasury, Bazaar > Peddler
Grand Market > Market
Festival > Woodcutter, Nomad Camp
Goons > Militia
Alchemist, Trusty Steed > Laboratory
Expand, Butcher > Remodel
Count > Mandarin
Festival, University > Necropolis

Anyone want to edge case any of these, or add to the list?

edit: removed Fortress, as discussed further down, and  Squire, which clearly has a potential on-trash penalty (e.g. hit by Swindler with Swindlers and Curses out, only other attack on the board is Sea Hag).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 03:18:36 pm by navical »
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