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Author Topic: Strictly better than....  (Read 111071 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2014, 10:24:05 pm »
+1

So I'm not seeing how Highway can be anti-synergistic at all with Poor House..?

There isn't a way.  The question was how Highway could be better than Peddler (with a bunch of restrictions to rule out some easy answers).  The answer is that Peddler has a negative interaction with Poor House while Highway does not.
also, it's way cooler to play 8 highways and buy a province for 0$ then to play 8 peddlers and pay 8$ for it

Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2014, 08:41:41 pm »
0

Butcher > Remodel ?

Looks solid to me. But I bet someone will come up with an edge case.
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navical

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2014, 08:57:56 pm »
0

I'm pretty certain that IRL you would never prefer to have a Duchy in hand than a Province, but might sometimes prefer the opposite due to Tournament (i.e. Province > Duchy).

On Goko, however, your opponent plays a Tournament, with a Bureaucrat and some other terminal in hand. If you have a Province, then Goko will ask you whether you want to reveal it, thus informing your opponent that you have a Victory card in hand, and so causing them to play the Bureaucrat instead of the other terminal. (And for whatever reason you consider this worse than them getting +Card +1$ (or it's a 3+ player game and someone else has already revealed)).

A similar situation arises with Young Witch to give a situation where you would prefer Duchy to Tunnel.

On the other hand, I can't find an edge case to counter Estate > Duchy in hand, though maybe someone else can.

(you can replace Duchy with any other pure Victory card with no interactions with other cards)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 09:24:33 pm by navical »
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liopoil

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2014, 09:01:34 pm »
0

On the other hand, I can't find an edge case to Estate > Duchy, though maybe someone else can.
baron
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navical

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2014, 09:24:39 pm »
0

On the other hand, I can't find an edge case to Estate > Duchy, though maybe someone else can.
baron
That was the whole reason of why Estate > Duchy rather than Estate = Duchy. Edited for clarity.
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liopoil

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2014, 09:27:27 pm »
0

On the other hand, I can't find an edge case to Estate > Duchy, though maybe someone else can.
baron
That was the whole reason of why Estate > Duchy rather than Estate = Duchy. Edited for clarity.
ahh, okay. Rebuild would make you prefer to have a duchy in hand if it is a mirror and you are trying to win the duchy split. However, you also have a province and so having your only duchy in hand lets you safely name province to insure you hit an estate.
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Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2014, 10:38:11 pm »
0

So I guess estate could always trump Duchy, Province, and Colony because of Baron and Duchy could do likewise because of Duke. And Province too because of Tournament?
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silverspawn

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2014, 12:00:03 am »
0

So I guess estate could always trump Duchy, Province, and Colony because of Baron and Duchy could do likewise because of Duke. And Province too because of Tournament?
very much so indeed yes thats correct

navical

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2014, 06:44:54 am »
+1

On the other hand, I can't find an edge case to Estate > Duchy, though maybe someone else can.
baron
That was the whole reason of why Estate > Duchy rather than Estate = Duchy. Edited for clarity.
ahh, okay. Rebuild would make you prefer to have a duchy in hand if it is a mirror and you are trying to win the duchy split. However, you also have a province and so having your only duchy in hand lets you safely name province to insure you hit an estate.

This doesn't work with scott pilgrim's "genie" interpretation of the question, which is the one I would use. Also, it's to do with TfB, and thus cost (if Estates cost 5 you wouldn't have this problem).
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jomini

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2014, 11:51:50 am »
0

I think a compelling case can be made with the Ruins:
1. Chancellor is strictly better than Abandoned mine. It has "you may" so we can always just play one as $2 while the other is $1. Throne rooms, golems, etc. should not matter.
2. Necropolis is strictly better than Ruined village. +2 actions vs +1.
3. Festival is strictly better than Ruined market.
4. Great hall is strictly better than Ruined library.

There are plenty of other things that give the exact same benefit and give you more flexibility or additional rewards.

In like fashion, Farmland, ignoring price, is strictly worse than Province in hand. Province may activate other cards (Explorer, Tournament), but Farmland does not. Without price concerns, Farmland cannot become anything Province cannot. The only way to trigger an on buy effect is to Ambassador over two, which doesn't happen when you have only one in hand. Province is, of course, worth more VP.

Alchemist should be strictly superior to Laboratory aside from price concerns. It has the same effect, but might also be able to be top decked if the player desires it after having drawn and played a potion. Likewise Trusty Steed is strictly better than Laboratory outside of cost - you can always get Lab effect, but with a bonus action (+1 action) and more flexibility (you can choose to not get the +action and just do +2 cards/+$2).

Festival is strictly better than Necropolis as is University.

Outside of price, I believe Treasury is strictly better than Peddler - the Treasury does everything the Peddler does in hand, but you may choose to top deck it later (or not). Market would also be strictly better outside of universal edge cases.

Grand market should be strictly better than Market ignoring price.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2014, 11:56:11 am »
0

Festival is strictly better than Necropolis as is University.
University is not strictly better because of the card gain.

2.71828.....

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2014, 12:00:03 pm »
+1

Festival is strictly better than Necropolis as is University.
University is not strictly better because of the card gain.

Its an optional card gain, so University would be strictly better
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Gveoniz

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2014, 12:03:56 pm »
0

Festival is strictly better than Necropolis as is University.
University is not strictly better because of the card gain.

Its an optional card gain, so University would be strictly better
My mistake, I have actually never noticed it.

Flip5ide

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2014, 01:58:27 pm »
0

The only way to trigger an on buy effect is to Ambassador over two, which doesn't happen when you have only one in hand. Province is, of course, worth more VP.

I don't think any on buy effects take place with Ambassador. I could be wrong.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2014, 02:12:56 pm »
0

In like fashion, Farmland, ignoring price, is strictly worse than Province in hand. Province may activate other cards (Explorer, Tournament), but Farmland does not. Without price concerns, Farmland cannot become anything Province cannot. The only way to trigger an on buy effect is to Ambassador over two, which doesn't happen when you have only one in hand. Province is, of course, worth more VP.

Well, edge case:  Your hand is Province, Ironmonger, Copper, Copper, Copper and it's a tournament game.  Your opponent plays a Bureaucrat, you put the Province on top of your deck.  He then plays a spy and makes you discard it.  On your turn, you play Ironmonger, drawing the top card of your deck, an Estate and revealing a Laboratory for +1 Action.

Now, if you had a Farmland, and your opponent may not discard it with Spy, so now when you play Ironmonger, you draw the Farmland, reveal the Estate, discard it, and draw the Lab.  You can then play the Lab, drawing your next two cards, Province and Tournament.  (Or whatever.)
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Polk5440

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2014, 02:16:36 pm »
0

I think a compelling case can be made with the Ruins:
1. Chancellor is strictly better than Abandoned mine. It has "you may" so we can always just play one as $2 while the other is $1. Throne rooms, golems, etc. should not matter.
2. Necropolis is strictly better than Ruined village. +2 actions vs +1.
3. Festival is strictly better than Ruined market.
4. Great hall is strictly better than Ruined library.

Best effort so far. However:

2. Necro often has to be remade/upgraded into Estate. Usually, you would rather trash it outright.

And, they all fall to Masquerade edge cases. For example, 4. Hand of all victory points. Opponent Masquerades. You must pass him a point (great hall) which gives him the win. Ruined library in hand would be better.

If the OP didn't require the cards to be in hand, Sab and Rogue would be possible edge case creators, as well.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2014, 02:19:23 pm »
0

I think a compelling case can be made with the Ruins:
1. Chancellor is strictly better than Abandoned mine. It has "you may" so we can always just play one as $2 while the other is $1. Throne rooms, golems, etc. should not matter.
2. Necropolis is strictly better than Ruined village. +2 actions vs +1.
3. Festival is strictly better than Ruined market.
4. Great hall is strictly better than Ruined library.

Best effort so far. However:

2. Necro often has to be remade/upgraded into Estate. Usually, you would rather trash it outright.

And, they all fall to Masquerade edge cases. For example, 4. Hand of all victory points. Opponent Masquerades. You must pass him a point (great hall) which gives him the win. Ruined library in hand would be better.

If the OP didn't require the cards to be in hand, Sab and Rogue would be possible edge case creators, as well.

I think both those edge cases are excluded by the premise of the puzzle.  The first depends on their costs, and the second holds true for any set of superior cards.
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theory

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2014, 02:23:49 pm »
+1

Any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude Possession/Masquerade/Ambassador, as well as the card's cost.  I would argue that "Opponents are more likely to discard it with Spy" also should be excluded.
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Polk5440

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2014, 02:41:05 pm »
0

I think a compelling case can be made with the Ruins:
1. Chancellor is strictly better than Abandoned mine. It has "you may" so we can always just play one as $2 while the other is $1. Throne rooms, golems, etc. should not matter.
2. Necropolis is strictly better than Ruined village. +2 actions vs +1.
3. Festival is strictly better than Ruined market.
4. Great hall is strictly better than Ruined library.

Best effort so far. However:

2. Necro often has to be remade/upgraded into Estate. Usually, you would rather trash it outright.

And, they all fall to Masquerade edge cases. For example, 4. Hand of all victory points. Opponent Masquerades. You must pass him a point (great hall) which gives him the win. Ruined library in hand would be better.

If the OP didn't require the cards to be in hand, Sab and Rogue would be possible edge case creators, as well.

I think both those edge cases are excluded by the premise of the puzzle.  The first depends on their costs, and the second holds true for any set of superior cards.

I don't see why Masq is excluded. The OP talks explicitly about cards in hand. That clearly allows for Masq edge cases. Maybe you would prefer a Death Cart edge case? I would rather have the bad action on hand to trash with Death Cart and the good action in deck to play later.

Any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude Possession/Masquerade/Ambassador, as well as the card's cost.  I would argue that "Opponents are more likely to discard it with Spy" also should be excluded.

I disagree strongly about the cost being excluded. Cost matters a lot.  See for example, rats. I think strictly better is only useful as a term when discussing fan card pitfalls.  Agree about possession, Masq, amb, though.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #144 on: June 17, 2014, 02:42:21 pm »
0

Any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude Possession/Masquerade/Ambassador, as well as the card's cost.  I would argue that "Opponents are more likely to discard it with Spy" also should be excluded.

Well, but only because of Tournament.  Otherwise they'd keep the Province on top as well.  And since Tournament was the reason you wanted it in hand in the first place, I think it's okay here.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #145 on: June 17, 2014, 04:24:22 pm »
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The only way to trigger an on buy effect is to Ambassador over two, which doesn't happen when you have only one in hand. Province is, of course, worth more VP.

I don't think any on buy effects take place with Ambassador. I could be wrong.

Suppose that all ten copies of a card with an on-buy effect have been purchased.  You want to trigger this on-buy effect anyway.  The only way you can do it is if you have Ambassador and two copies of that card in your hand in a 2p game.  You Ambassador both copies.  One goes to your opponent but the other one remains in the supply, allowing you to buy it that turn to trigger the effect.

Any reasonable definition of "strictly better" has to exclude Possession/Masquerade/Ambassador, as well as the card's cost.  I would argue that "Opponents are more likely to discard it with Spy" also should be excluded.

I disagree that cost should be excluded.  "Strictly better" should include price, and if we want to ignore the cost to purchase (or gain) the card then we should use the term "strictly better effect".  These separate terms are useful when discussing fan cards.  Strictly superior and strictly inferior cards simply shouldn't exist, other than cards that are meant to be junk (e.g. Ruins, Curse).  Cards with strictly inferior/superior effects can be used to estimate an appropriate cost for fan cards (e.g. village+ cards are often strictly superior to Village and so should cost more than $3).

Moreover, the cost of a card does have other impacts that should be considered, even though we have to exclude it for the purpose of this challenge.  Ignoring the cost of Farmland really hurts evaluation of it, for example, because Farmland->Province is a key part of Farmland's use.
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soulnet

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2014, 07:05:41 pm »
+1

The only way to trigger an on buy effect is to Ambassador over two, which doesn't happen when you have only one in hand. Province is, of course, worth more VP.

I don't think any on buy effects take place with Ambassador. I could be wrong.

Suppose that all ten copies of a card with an on-buy effect have been purchased.  You want to trigger this on-buy effect anyway.  The only way you can do it is if you have Ambassador and two copies of that card in your hand in a 2p game.  You Ambassador both copies.  One goes to your opponent but the other one remains in the supply, allowing you to buy it that turn to trigger the effect.

Just having one is enough, as every opponent may have Lighthouse in play.
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theory

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2014, 07:21:52 pm »
0

I guess what I mean by cost is, you can't say that Province for $7 isn't strictly superior to Province for $8, because $8 Province gives you more if you Salvage it. Similarly Estate for $3 is strictly worse even though you might be forced to Remake it and have better targets.
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jomini

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2014, 12:22:31 pm »
0

I disagree that cost should be excluded.  "Strictly better" should include price, and if we want to ignore the cost to purchase (or gain) the card then we should use the term "strictly better effect".  These separate terms are useful when discussing fan cards.  Strictly superior and strictly inferior cards simply shouldn't exist, other than cards that are meant to be junk (e.g. Ruins, Curse).  Cards with strictly inferior/superior effects can be used to estimate an appropriate cost for fan cards (e.g. village+ cards are often strictly superior to Village and so should cost more than $3).

Moreover, the cost of a card does have other impacts that should be considered, even though we have to exclude it for the purpose of this challenge.  Ignoring the cost of Farmland really hurts evaluation of it, for example, because Farmland->Province is a key part of Farmland's use.

The problem with including price is that it creates universal edge cases about three piling that don't care at all about the card mechanics.

You hold Butcher/X, but two piles are empty, you are tied but lose on tie breaker, and your opponent will win next turn if it happens. We some tinkering we can make just about any card X strictly better based solely on Price. $2 - $6, all allow you to Butcher a card into a VP card, end the game and win. For VP cards we set things up so a different card at the same prince point has more points (e.g. Butchering Garden -> Silk Road or Silk Road -> Garden is better). For $7 cards we just give you two coin tokens and say you need to hit $11 to win. With $8 we give you one. With $9 we give you zero. With few exceptions, you can set it up so that a card at any given price point is better than any other card - pretty much regardless of the text on the card.

For $0 cards, we just set it up so you need to Remake it and a curse (for the 1 VP swing) into the last two Poor houses with your three card hand.

Now sure you might be able to Butcher a Catacomb into $4 and come out the same, but we can also set things up like Forge/X/Y where you need a specific price point to get the game winning card (e.g. if Y is 4 and you can win by grabbing the last province only a $4 will do, likewise if Y is 3P then only a $1 will let you gain the last Golem for the win).

By taking cost into account I can make A is strictly better than B in some situation, B is strictly better than C in some situation, and C is strictly better than A in yet one more - and do that all based just on price.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #149 on: June 18, 2014, 04:08:45 pm »
+1

The problem with including price is that it creates universal edge cases about three piling that don't care at all about the card mechanics.

This is why I made a distinction between "strictly better" and "strictly better effect".

You hold Butcher/X, but two piles are empty, you are tied but lose on tie breaker, and your opponent will win next turn if it happens. We some tinkering we can make just about any card X strictly better based solely on Price. $2 - $6, all allow you to Butcher a card into a VP card, end the game and win. For VP cards we set things up so a different card at the same prince point has more points (e.g. Butchering Garden -> Silk Road or Silk Road -> Garden is better). For $7 cards we just give you two coin tokens and say you need to hit $11 to win. With $8 we give you one. With $9 we give you zero. With few exceptions, you can set it up so that a card at any given price point is better than any other card - pretty much regardless of the text on the card.

This description is a bit convoluted.  Garden->SR or vice versa says nothing about price because they both cost $4.  Your $7+ example makes no sense because the $8 card can fill in for the $7 card just as well.  You can switch to using Upgrade though, but that's certainly something worth considering that can make you prefer a $7 card over a card at another price point.

I haven't quoted all your examples but they aren't really any different.  Again, I made a distinction between "strictly better" and "strictly better effect", and I explained why such a distinction is helpful in comparing cards (especially fan cards).

By taking cost into account I can make A is strictly better than B in some situation, B is strictly better than C in some situation, and C is strictly better than A in yet one more - and do that all based just on price.

You're abusing the term "strictly", which should mean "in every situation".  If A is only better than B in some situations, it isn't strictly better.  It's merely better in that situation.  And that's fine.  Absolutely price can make some cards better in a specific situation.  The easiest example for this is Forge; we don't need all the hyper-specific examples you gave above.
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